listen to me, just another blabbering mental patient

[17daysolderthannes]

http://www.maclife.com/article/news/iphone_gaming_more_popular_ds_psp


NO, THE IPHONE WILL NEVER BEAT THE PSP AND DS! NINTENDO IS THE BEST COMPANY EVER! WE KNOW EVERYTHING AND YOU'RE JUST A BIG DUMB DUMB HEAD!

newflash: I may know more about what I'm talking about than you asshats think.

you may think I'm being a dick here, but god dammit I told you so, so how about we skip the part where all of you deny everything I say and just take a listen from now on.


so once again...

http://sfist.com/attachments/SFist_Brock/arrow%20pointing%20down.jpg

[moonmaster1]

I can believe this. I find it to be cool as they are porting game such as nazi zombies and the sega games.

The touch controls just don't suit me though, probably because I grew up around gamepads like everyone else born before 1996.

[Knuckle Duster]

Cell phone gaming is watered down, but improving as it absorbs support from the big publishers with hopes that the install base will justify support.

This isn't news.

That you would consider it's software "Better" than DS or PSP is where the differences of opinion come into the picture. Nintendo has the market by the balls by offering cheap, reliable hardware & a ton of excellent software. PSP offers traditional 3D console gaming for a portable device. Both are great at what they do. The iPhone is great at what it does, all platforms have some major flaws.

You don't seem to have a point here. Mac Life is calling two products which have a massive install base for different reasons, a "handheld gaming device" now. Cool. :roll:

[17daysolderthannes]

I can believe this. I find it to be cool as they are porting game such as nazi zombies and the sega games.

The touch controls just don't suit me though, probably because I grew up around gamepads like everyone else born before 1996.

The games that are really worthwhile on the iPhone don't mimmick traditional gamepads. For example, Touchgrind lets you simulate a skateboard (or a tech deck anyway) and use your fingers like you would your feet. All of the racing games (or most) utilize accelerometer control to achieve a Wii-like experience. I have a phone full of games and probably less than 10% could be played properly with a standard gamepad.


Cell phone gaming is watered down, but improving as it absorbs support from the big publishers with hopes that the install base will justify support.

This isn't news.

That you would consider it's software "Better" than DS or PSP is where the differences of opinion come into the picture. Nintendo has the market by the balls by offering cheap, reliable hardware & a ton of excellent software. PSP offers traditional 3D console gaming for a portable device. Both are great at what they do. The iPhone is great at what it does, all platforms have some major flaws.

You don't seem to have a point here. Mac Life is calling two products which have a massive install base for different reasons, a "handheld gaming device" now. Cool. :roll:

it's news that I was right that the iPhone is going to start wiping the floor with the DS and Wii's market share, just like I said it would. That is the point of this thread. The coincidence that the iPhone is also a phone is a moot point, the high accessibility and dirt cheap games make it a winner, period.

Also, when you get down to it, the DS isn't that cheap (an iPhone is actually cheaper if you don't count the cost of the plan), the games are WAY more expensive, and the overall experience isn't really any better (and sometimes alot worse). Nintendo is fucked and I don't feel bad at all for them, serves them right for going after a fickle casual market that can get their kicks on a platform they often already own.

[Baloo]

And here, we, go...

http://static.reelmovienews.com/images/gallery/here-we-go.png

[17daysolderthannes]

And here, we, go...

http://static.reelmovienews.com/images/gallery/here-we-go.png

http://jeffcanoy.files.wordpress.com/2009/07/burt_ward_adam_west_batman_the_movie_0013.jpg

"Hello? is this the mayor? We're about to have an epidemic of backpedaling and retracted statements. 17days was right yet again and I just know a shit storm is going to come of it, as always. If only they would just learn to listen from the start instead of endless arguing out of their ass! ...what's that you say? ice cream? I'd love some! but no time for that now! to the Apple Store!"

[Knuckle Duster]

it's news that I was right that the iPhone is going to start wiping the floor with the DS and Wii's market share, just like I said it would. That is the point of this thread. The coincidence that the iPhone is also a phone is a moot point, the high accessibility and dirt cheap games make it a winner, period.

Coincidence?
It's a cell phone. Not a dedicated gaming device. That's 'why' most people bought one.

Winner of what exactly? An imaginary playground-argument you're having with yourself?
There are a lot of people who would be right behind you supporting the iPhone if it was reasonably good at offering quality software comparable to it's 'new-found competition'.

The argument commonly put forward was never based on market share overtaking the competition, but more on the software quality ratio in direct comparison. You know this already, troll.

[17daysolderthannes]

The argument commonly put forward was never based on market share overtaking the competition, but more on the software quality ratio in direct comparison. You know this already, troll.

So the owner of almost 700 physical games, thousands of games via download/ROMs/compilations, and 15+ systems spanning 25 years doesn't have a clue about quality software? The iPhone has a better library than the Wii, and that's EXCLUSIVELY for gaming. The only people that hate on the iPhone library don't know what it has to offer. Everyone just blindly assumes it has nothing to offer because of some lame ass Apple hate. "Oh Droid Does!" no it doesn't. There hasn't been a single game for the PSP or DS that made me say "OH MY GOD! MUST HAVE!" and all of the casual titles for those systems have a much cheaper equivalent on the iPhone. I said the iPhone would eventually cause the demise of casual gaming platforms, and based on the market trends, I was right, it's just a matter of time before no one will want to waste their time on a Wii.

[Guntz]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZNxbzEwB5k

[17daysolderthannes]

QZNxbzEwB5k

ask the people that shit all over everything I say, even though I'm right 99.9% of the time.

[Melf]

I like how that article mentions nothing about sales or how piracy is utterly rampant on the iPhone, or how the theft of cheap games doesn't just cause the developer the sale but the investment of the back-end infrastructure as well. Remember, developers flocked to the Wii when it was new too, and now they're backing off. It remains to be seen if this will be the norm a year from now, unless Apple gets off its ass and does something about piracy.

[Knuckle Duster]

So the owner of almost 700 physical games, thousands of games via download/ROMs/compilations, and 15+ systems spanning 25 years doesn't have a clue about quality software? The iPhone has a better library than the Wii, and that's EXCLUSIVELY for gaming. The only people that hate on the iPhone library don't know what it has to offer. Everyone just blindly assumes it has nothing to offer because of some lame ass Apple hate. "Oh Droid Does!" no it doesn't. There hasn't been a single game for the PSP or DS that made me say "OH MY GOD! MUST HAVE!" and all of the casual titles for those systems have a much cheaper equivalent on the iPhone. I said the iPhone would eventually cause the demise of casual gaming platforms, and based on the market trends, I was right, it's just a matter of time before no one will want to waste their time on a Wii.

:rofl:
This comes back to the points of the following:

A) Your opinion doesn't need to be padded with credentials to suddenly bear influence on others. People like what they like, but most people don't try to shit on other opinions or justifications to your repeated asking of 'Why the fuck would somebody like the Wii?!'

B) You like the iPhone library; COOL! :D , nobody cares; stop saying the iPhone is a sign of the rapture in every Wii discussion & maybe you won't feel the need to be so defensive when people call you an idiot & point out it's flaws & the obvious market differences.

C) The wii has been out for over 3 years. It's 'only a matter of time' you say? Yes, a time known as a 'life cycle'.

[Guntz]

ask the people that shit all over everything I say, even though I'm right 99.9% of the time.

I say just let the "iPhone is/is not a game platform" subject go for right now. If you can't prove at this very moment that the iPhone has good games on it (which could be remedied with gameplay videos or something), wait for time to tell whether the iPhone sinks or swims. Irony is a sweet, sweet thing really. :D

[Knuckle Duster]

Something tells me he spent a good portion of his younger days trying to put the square block in the round hole. :nod:

[MrMatthews]

Um, I don't mean to rain on your parade, 17days, but the article doesn't say the iPhone is better than the DS or PSP: all it says is that it is more popular among developers.

What if I told you that the Wii was more popular among developers than the XBox 360 or the PS3?

[Karakasa-Obake]

17days, you should really try the DS. I didn't think I would get into to it at first, but now I play it more than any other system. There is a wide variety of games available for it as well. I'm sure you could find some stuff you like on it.

As for the iTouch, I will admit I'm actually interested in one. I have been messing around with some of my friend's, and I think it would be a nice little thing to have.

[17daysolderthannes]

I like how that article mentions nothing about sales or how piracy is utterly rampant on the iPhone, or how the theft of cheap games doesn't just cause the developer the sale but the investment of the back-end infrastructure as well. Remember, developers flocked to the Wii when it was new too, and now they're backing off. It remains to be seen if this will be the norm a year from now, unless Apple gets off its ass and does something about piracy.

It indirectly mentions sales when it states that developers are migrating to it due to its popularity. If no one was buying iPhone games, who the hell would want to develop for it?

As for piracy, it really doesn't matter. You can't do the "pirated game=lost sale" math when often people will pirate a game they wouldn't buy otherwise. I have about 100 real Genesis games, and I also have a complete ROM set. I wouldn't buy most of the games in that ROM set if I had to pay for them individually. Furthermore, I would only have maybe 10-20 Genesis games if they weren't so incredibly cheap.

And what about piracy on everything else? A jailbreak really isn't any easier/harder/more common than a DS R4 card or PSP custom firmware. Apparently iPhone developers are still selling enough for it to be worthwhile for them. Remember as well, the overhead is almost nil since it's all digital download. Regardless, it's beside the point, developers and consumers are relying on the iPhone for mobile (and by mobile I mean "on-the-go") entertainment, like I said they eventually would, so your point is totally moot off-topic nonsense.


Um, I don't mean to rain on your parade, 17days, but the article doesn't say the iPhone is better than the DS or PSP: all it says is that it is more popular among developers.

What if I told you that the Wii was more popular among developers than the XBox 360 or the PS3?

My only point is that I was right in saying the iPhone is taking over the casual gaming market. Whether or not the games are good is completely up to opinion. I'll see if I can find a sales figure to further put everyone's foot in their mouth.

edit:

this guy seems to be doing alright:

http://www.businessinsider.com/2008/9/iphone-developer-i-ll-do-anything-apple-tells-me-to-do-i-just-made-250k-on-the-app-store-in-two-months-aapl-

I also like how he addresses why droid sucks:


Why cut himself off from other markets? In part, because he's doing just fine with Apple. But Steve also says that Google's strategy of distributing its OS to multiple manufacturers who will create multiple handset models will actually cause him more headaches than its worth.

“Do I want to be spending 6 months to write the game, and another 6 months making it compatible? If I had Trism available for Android, and there are 50 Android devices and every time one of them crashes (the users) contact me, do I want that?”

Gameloft is doing GREAT:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_6CxGwriwc9o/S0UG4OZhwnI/AAAAAAAAArk/_YmZAfUHUbk/s1600-h/Gameloft+10m+App+Store+Downloads.png

[Pulstar]

17days would be a better analyst than the likes of Pachter. While I'm losing faith in the DS the iPhone hasn't won me over just yet. A netbook with a halfway decent GPU (ION2 where are you?) would look a whole lot more attractive than both the iPad and iPhone. Too bad netbooks don't support GSM :P

[17daysolderthannes]

17days, you should really try the DS. I didn't think I would get into to it at first, but now I play it more than any other system. There is a wide variety of games available for it as well. I'm sure you could find some stuff you like on it.

As for the iTouch, I will admit I'm actually interested in one. I have been messing around with some of my friend's, and I think it would be a nice little thing to have.

...why? I already have the iPhone and as I've already said most of the good games on DS and PSP have an equivalent on the iPhone. Besides, the iPhone has the key advantage that makes it infinitely better than a DS or PSP could ever be: it's my phone. My phone is always with me, my PSP has only left the house maybe 3 times since I've had it.




17days would be a better analyst than the likes of Pachter. While I'm losing faith in the DS the iPhone hasn't won me over just yet. A netbook with a halfway decent GPU (ION2 where are you?) would look a whole lot more attractive than both the iPad and iPhone. Too bad netbooks don't support GSM :P


...but a netbook is just a small laptop. You gonna put a netbook in your pocket? the iPhone is a phone and thus will always have an advantage over dedicated portable game devices and netbooks. I mean, would you really haul a netbook around with you 24/7? Am I the only one that goes through the "keys, wallet, cell phone" checklist before I leave the house? Also, a netbook is at least a good $400 to be worth a shit, a brand new 3GS is only $200 and a 3G is just $100.

[Guntz]

...why? I already have the iPhone and as I've already said most of the good games on DS and PSP have an equivalent on the iPhone. Besides, the iPhone has the key advantage that makes it infinitely better than a DS or PSP could ever be: it's my phone. My phone is always with me, my PSP has only left the house maybe 3 times since I've had it.

I think I can see why the others find your retorts, *ahem* childish. That is most certainly a YOU problem. It's not Sony or Nintendo's fault you can't take a game system with you out of your own home.

[17daysolderthannes]

I think I can see why the others find your retorts, *ahem* childish. That is most certainly a YOU problem. It's not Sony or Nintendo's fault you can't take a game system with you out of your own home.

so it's not childish to haul a PSP with you and nerd out in public? I'm pretty sure 99% of America would be more likely to call you childish for keeping a PSP in your back pocket than not. I could do it, but I don't want to, especially if I don't know if I'll even need/want to play. The beauty of the iPhone is that it's there when I hit a few minutes of downtime for whatever reason. It's the same thing as a digital camera (video and still), MP3 player, etc. etc. I don't have the pocket room for all of that, but when it's all in my phone, I have it. I don't want to haul a backpack full of shit when one slim device can do all of it. And that's not even mentioning the social factor of how big of a tool you would look doing it.

[jerry coeurl]

so it's not childish to haul a PSP with you and nerd out in public? I'm pretty sure 99% of America would be more likely to call you childish for keeping a PSP in your back pocket than not... And that's not even mentioning the social factor of how big of a tool you would look doing it.

It's cool that you're so ashamed of your hobby. The way you are so concerned about what people you don't know might think about you shows a high level of maturity of your part. Oh, and :bull:

[wgolly]

What did you predict, exactly; think this happening is pretty obvious. It's a cool device, though.

[Guntz]

so it's not childish to haul a PSP with you and nerd out in public? I'm pretty sure 99% of America would be more likely to call you childish for keeping a PSP in your back pocket than not. I could do it, but I don't want to, especially if I don't know if I'll even need/want to play. The beauty of the iPhone is that it's there when I hit a few minutes of downtime for whatever reason. It's the same thing as a digital camera (video and still), MP3 player, etc. etc. I don't have the pocket room for all of that, but when it's all in my phone, I have it. I don't want to haul a backpack full of shit when one slim device can do all of it. And that's not even mentioning the social factor of how big of a tool you would look doing it.

Again, this is a YOU problem. There's nothing stopping you from carrying a DS with you somewhere but your own human stubborn-ness. Would you call me an idiot for not buying a PS2 because of "supposedly high" hardware failure? Most likely, because not only are there good games, but the chances of getting a bad PS2 are low.

Inversely, the others call you an idiot for not using a PSP outside because it's "not as convenient" for much the same reason. There's no logical reason to not use a PSP outside other than the ones you make up.

Oh yeah:


so it's not childish to haul a PSP with you and nerd out in public? I'm pretty sure 99% of America would be more likely to call you childish for keeping a PSP in your back pocket than not.

I'm in Canada, so that does not apply to me in any way. :p

[wgolly]

so it's not childish to haul a PSP with you and nerd out in public? .

no you do that well without the psp.

I don't own a psp, but yeah the games are prob better on iphone. The idea that people would choose convenience over hauling around a portable game system, isn't exactly earth shattering, though, genius.

[17daysolderthannes]

It's cool that you're so ashamed of your hobby. The way you are so concerned about what people you don't know might think about you shows a high level of maturity of your part. Oh, and :bull:

Lets see the droves of girls lining up to fuck the dude playing his PSP in the corner. I do quite well in the ass department thank you, so I feel confident to say I know what I'm talking about here. I could elaborate, but then people would just be getting butthurt and calling me arrogant or some shit. Games are fun and all, but sex comes WAAAAAAY before video games. A dude playing on an iPhone in public is bored, a dude playing a PSP in public is a creeper. Sorry, that's how girls look at it, go experiment for yourself and see the difference.


What did you predict, exactly; think this happening is pretty obvious. It's a cool device, though.

I predicted the iPhone would eventually oust casual gaming platforms like the Wii and DS since the audience of that market has little brand loyalty and will generally go for what's cheapest/most convenient and the iPhone dominates those categories by a wide margin.


Again, this is a YOU problem. There's nothing stopping you from carrying a DS with you somewhere but your own human stubborn-ness. Would you call me an idiot for not buying a PS2 because of "supposedly high" hardware failure? Most likely, because not only are there good games, but the chances of getting a bad PS2 are low.

Inversely, the others call you an idiot for not using a PSP outside because it's "not as convenient" for much the same reason. There's no logical reason to not use a PSP outside other than the ones you make up.



wow, that is the worst comparison ever. What does hardware reliability have to do with convenience? The iPhone is ALWAYS in my pocket because it HAS TO BE. "oh, what did you do before cell phones durr hurr hurr"...you were in a hell of a bind in an emergency, that's what.

The PSP would be a 4th item that would be completely unnecessary 99% of the time. If I was riding a train or other mass transit daily, a different argument could be made, but some days I go without playing a game altogether, so why haul around something like that in a backpack or car where it can get slammed around and broken when I'm not even going to use it?

Also, DS and PSP games tend to have longer spans between saves, something the iPhone is designed to do at any given second for most games. I can play an iPhone game for 1 minute and pick it back up exactly where I left off. On a PSP or DS you'll have to play to a save point or lose your progress. Games vary on this, but many will save your spot on the iPhone.


no you do that well without the psp.

I don't own a psp, but yeah the games are prob better on iphone. The idea that people would choose convenience over hauling around a portable game system, isn't exactly earth shattering, though, genius.

who was this directed to? If you were directing this at me and insisting it's not earth shattering to insist convenience>all out performance, then you have about 90% of this forum to convince because they don't seem to want to buy into that theory.

[MrMatthews]

I've already said most of the good games on DS and PSP have an equivalent on the iPhone.

That doesn't make them good equivalents, though. And regardless of how good the game is, the iPhone utilizes those stupid virtual buttons and joysticks: those will forever only be "good enough," at least until Apple comes out with a device that has physical buttons.

Not to mention that playing games on your iPhone sucks your battery dry in no time flat.

[Guntz]

wow, that is the worst comparison ever. What does hardware reliability have to do with convenience? The iPhone is ALWAYS in my pocket because it HAS TO BE. "oh, what did you do before cell phones durr hurr hurr"...you were in a hell of a bind in an emergency, that's what.

The PSP would be a 4th item that would be completely unnecessary 99% of the time. If I was riding a train or other mass transit daily, a different argument could be made, but some days I go without playing a game altogether, so why haul around something like that in a backpack or car where it can get slammed around and broken when I'm not even going to use it?

Also, DS and PSP games tend to have longer spans between saves, something the iPhone is designed to do at any given second for most games. I can play an iPhone game for 1 minute and pick it back up exactly where I left off. On a PSP or DS you'll have to play to a save point or lose your progress. Games vary on this, but many will save your spot on the iPhone.

How clearly do I have to say this? YOU are the reason why game machines are inconvenient, not society, not the iPhone, not anything. Look at all the people who use real consoles rather than emulators even though it's "not as convenient". It's THEIR choice for doing so, convenience doesn't mean anything.

The point is, don't slam the DS or PSP JUST because they doesn't fit in with your bump and grind lifestyle, just like how the rest of us refuse to accept the iPhone because it's made by Apple. Both systems are and have been accepted for many years, to be great portable consoles.

[Elusive]

LOOK AT MEEEEEE

No-one cares, 17days. Really.

Why the passive-aggressive thread tags?

[jerry coeurl]

Lets see the droves of girls lining up to fuck the dude playing his PSP in the corner. I do quite well in the ass department thank you, so I feel confident to say I know what I'm talking about here. I could elaborate, but then people would just be getting butthurt and calling me arrogant or some shit. Games are fun and all, but sex comes WAAAAAAY before video games. A dude playing on an iPhone in public is bored, a dude playing a PSP in public is a creeper. Sorry, that's how girls look at it, go experiment for yourself and see the difference.


Let's see the droves of girls lining up to fuck the dude playing his iPhone in the corner. What are you trying to convince people of here? That girls follow you around, throwing their vaginas at you because you've got the trendy little tech device of the moment? I don't see any girls lining up to fuck any guys based on what consumer electronics they play with. If you're afraid to take your PSP out of the house out of some irrational fear of being perceived as a nerd, that's fine, but don't try and pretend that your iPhone helps you get laid. That's probably the stupidest fucking thing I've ever read.

[InternalPrimate]

IP is in the middle of a drive to Northern California (buy me a beer Matthews) and will address the sourpuss 17days and his zany theories in a bit :D

[Melf]

It indirectly mentions sales when it states that developers are migrating to it due to its popularity. If no one was buying iPhone games, who the hell would want to develop for it?

Everyone is high on iPhone games now, but will that last? For as much as you love to disparage the Wii, you completely miss the parallels it has to the iPhone. Everyone jumped at the Wii to develop when it was new, and sales were initially good, but things have cooled off fast. Capcom, EA, and Ubi Soft are some of the companies backing off now that 3rd party sales have cooled. The novelty wasn't able to sustain itself, and that's without the massive piracy issue the iPhone has.


As for piracy, it really doesn't matter. You can't do the "pirated game=lost sale" math when often people will pirate a game they wouldn't buy otherwise. I have about 100 real Genesis games, and I also have a complete ROM set. I wouldn't buy most of the games in that ROM set if I had to pay for them individually. Furthermore, I would only have maybe 10-20 Genesis games if they weren't so incredibly cheap. Why do you continue to cover your ears and yell "la,la,la,la" any time someone mentions this issue? This isn't my opinion. Unlike you, I'm basing what I say on facts, like articles published by actual iPhone developers (http://blog.off-by-one.mobi/2009/10/in-app-purchase-and-state-of-iphone.html) and articles published on credible sites like Gamasutra (http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/4194/iphone_piracy_the_inside_story.php).


And what about piracy on everything else? A jailbreak really isn't any easier/harder/more common than a DS R4 card or PSP custom firmware. Apparently iPhone developers are still selling enough for it to be worthwhile for them. Remember as well, the overhead is almost nil since it's all digital download. Regardless, it's beside the point, developers and consumers are relying on the iPhone for mobile (and by mobile I mean "on-the-go") entertainment, like I said they eventually would, so your point is totally moot off-topic nonsense.Way to miss the big picture. I guess "moot, off-topic nonsense" is what they call economics 101 where you live. You're assuming that there's no overhead, and all those games simply develop themselves, and the magic money trees in the backyard pay the staff. You mention that the games still sell well. True, but they're not selling as well as they should. What you fail to grasp is that if half the games downloaded are pirated, while the developers still profit, they don't profit as much as they could. I doubt any of them are content to see 1000 units downloaded when they only received money for half that. But I guess that they have no reason to worry, right? I mean, piracy has only cost app developers $450 million (http://www.macobserver.com/tmo/article/piracy_may_have_cost_apple_iphone_devs_450_million/) so far.

Here's a quote from an actual iPhone developer about that non-existent overhead you so casually dismiss:



"What developers lose is not necessarily the sale," he explains, "because I don't believe pirates would have bought the game if they hadn't stolen it. But when there is a back-end infrastructure associated with a game, that is an ongoing incremental cost that becomes a straight loss for the developer."

"Many developers run servers to provide content dynamically, they run high-score servers, and that sort of thing costs money. If your application is pirated, you quickly find that cutting steeply into your profit margin, especially given the low price point of iPhone games."I'm sure he knows less about this than you do, right?

And it's not like these developers are unhappy with Apple's piss-poor stance on the subject, right? Why, see how they talk about piracy (http://news.cnet.com/8301-1009_3-10142318-83.html) "not mattering," as you say!


"Many developers are upset that the (Apple) digital rights management is broken and nobody has gotten a response from Apple, that I know of," Bossert, co-founder of Fairlady Media (http://fairladymedia.com/), told CNET News on Tuesday. "The pirates are so far ahead of Apple now that ... games are cracked the day or the day after they are released." I'm glad you're here to school us on these things!

[TheRollingStoner]

Is it lonely up there on your pedestal, 17days?

[havok666]

As long as Pokemon is on a Nintendo handheld, they will always be number one.

Oh P.S. -- I AM AN ENGINEER IN TRAINING, I OWN 700 ORIGINAL PHYSICAL GAMES BUT I LEAVE THEM IN BOXES AND ONLY PLAY MILLIONS OF TEH ROMZ ON MY 1337 HIPSTER MACINTOSH WHILE LISTENING TO MUSIC ON MY IPOD AND JERKING MYSELF OFF WITH AN IPHONE.

[Melf]

Guys, please. Heated debate is acceptable, but insults are not. Everyone needs to just chill out and discuss the topic like adults, or the thread will be closed.

[Zz Badnusty]

Winner of what exactly? An imaginary playground-argument you're having with yourself?
...
You know this already, troll.
...is all that needs to be said.

[Namakubi]

Guys, please. Heated debate is acceptable, but insults are not. Everyone needs to just chill out and discuss the topic like adults, or the thread will be closed.

So you point this out when somebody other than 17daysolderthannes does it? In his OP, he calls most of the posters here "asshats" and has regularly called members of the board "fucking retarded" and he's never called out for it. Why is that?

And to everybody else:

http://teoten.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/dont_feed_the_trolls.jpg

[sasuke]

The survey also notes that over the past 3 quarters, all handheld game developers are now writing iPhone games.Nintendo and Sony too? Sweet.;)

On a more serious note, I like the iPhone for its convenience and all that, and the games are fun, but I mostly use a PSP or DS for gaming and the iPhone for web browsing and quick games while commuting to college. I do plan on becoming an App developer if I save enough $$$ to get a Macbook and Developer License.

[zetastrike]

Jerry gets a +1 for his last comment. Seriously, the iphone would be the last thing that would come to mind when I think about a game console. It's a damn cell phone, first and foremost. It wasn't designed for the sole purpose of playing games, the DS and PSP were. I just can't read 17days rantings with a straight face.

[Puffy2k316]

A quick google search found an article predicting that the Iphone is going to sell 80 million iPhones by 2012 (2 years from now) so it's a conservative estimate to say that there might be 40-50 million out there now and not all of them are even used for games so how in the world could that stand up to 125 million DSes ALREADY out there?

it does have some fun games though

[omp]

Here's a giggle for everyone

[Rusty Venture]

I just can't read 17days rantings with a straight face.

I've found this musical composition to help you enjoy this thread.

MK6TXMsvgQg

[kool kitty89]

I see relatively few people on the bus or at college with DSs (mostly kids on the bus), occasionally I see PSPs, about 1/3 of people with them are girls too, but still they're not that common. There's a good bit of cellphone gaming, but relatively few actual iPhone gamers I've seen in public (I know of several people who definitely do, but I've seen few actually doing so around campus or on the shuttle or city bus -note this is a community college, nut also note it includes a sizable early college accelerated high school program, so there are kids down to high school freshmen on campus too).

I think the iPhone has potential, but one thing holding it back is the constricting controls. Touch screen and accelerometer based games only go so far, albeit touch works well for almost anything that would be mouse based on a PC. (various point and click or flash type games)
But if some kind of gamepad attachment (ie a simple compact slide/clip on unit with d-pad and buttons) would really help to expand things, and should be possible and still be much smaller than a PSP. (one other obvious complaint is the lack of a physical keyboard available, but that's less of a gaming issue)

[Dunn]

Why is there always such hating between fans of different consoles? What the jizz happened to the simple matter of choice?

If I want "console x" with a selection of games I enjoy and controllers I like, but "console y" has a faster cpu or whatnot. Then who are anyone to say that's a wrong decision for me?

DS, PSP, IPhone, Wii, Xbox360, PS3 - Who gives a flying fuck? Just buy the machine you want and have fun with it.

geez, seriously.

[Pulstar]

Maybe because the majority of participants in this topic aren't reasonable human beings? :P

[Knuckle Duster]

Reason hits it's obsolescence when responding to trolls.

The majority here believe in choice as a bottom line more than anything, and welcome the iPhone to improve it's games.

It's ironic how 17days would preach about convenience's high value in this instance though, when he would throw himself on a sword before acknowledging that convenience is a reason to support the wii's virtual console while he bashes it endlessly.

Hypocrisy, Nerd rage, Hatred of opinions, I think he needs to stop worshiping Steve Jobs & take his life story to heart; Chill the fuck out & express yourself tastefully in a constructive manner that gets peoples attention.

[Why-Disciple]

Hey 17days, what is it that you'd like us to say to get you to stop ranting? It would have to be something other than "We were wrong and you were right, hail 17days our leader and intellectual superior." Some kind of negotiation just to get everyone to shut up.

[Melf]

So you point this out when somebody other than 17daysolderthannes does it? In his OP, he calls most of the posters here "asshats" and has regularly called members of the board "fucking retarded" and he's never called out for it. Why is that?

No, I point this out after a page or so of back and forth to see if all of those involved can act their age and not fall into the troll trap. When it's obvious that's not the case, I point it out. My comment goes to everyone, 17 included.

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

The different i-phones definitely have potential. I was considering getting one but since I'm getting a pandora now I probably won't right away. They sell (or will soon be selling)a little controller device that clips onto the i-phone for playing games, and a little keyboard one also that clips on.

[streetsofrage]

17days and everyone else here , you guys got to start realizing whats important in life these pointless argument are a big waste of time . this forum is 90 % pointless arguments and 10 % old school sega stuff

this is my opinion if u dont like , suck my nut

[doomguy]

I only used to go on forums for a good argument, grew out of that at 16 tho my point is thse pointless arguments are erm.... Well pointless they are videogames which are for playing not for ranting.

[NeoVamp]

I agree with streetsofrage & doomguy, forums are supposed to be fun,
but there's always that one guy who only comes there just to argue.

[kool kitty89]

I still stand by my physical controlls comment. :p

I don't care one way or the other as I have no iphone and don't really care to get one. (I'd rather have a cheap phone that's relatively sturdy but not the end of the world if gets lost/stolen/smashed and can stay on for a week or so with moderate use before the battery dies -and if I really wanted something more that was very portable, I'd probably go for a netbook)

I still think such an accessory would really broaden the possibilities for the platform though. (and should be pretty inexpensive, at least once 3rd parties start offering it, I'd immagien an official apple release would have the usual hefty price tag)

[jerry coeurl]

It's ironic how 17days would preach about convenience's high value in this instance though, when he would throw himself on a sword before acknowledging that convenience is a reason to support the wii's virtual console while he bashes it endlessly.

QFT

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

Can we merge this thread with the Who here thinks Ive made intelligent posts thread? K thnx Bi :)

[Metal_Sonic]

This is one of the dorkiest threads I've seen here.
My contribution:
http://funkyimg.com/u2/563/176/avixxx.gif

[InternalPrimate]

Munn'd


http://xrayvision.today.com/files/2009/06/olivia-munn-leia-02.jpg

[old man]

Did you know a Lexus is really a Toyota with a different brand on it? True.

[snume]

Why is there always such hating between fans of different consoles? What the jizz happened to the simple matter of choice?

If I want "console x" with a selection of games I enjoy and controllers I like, but "console y" has a faster cpu or whatnot. Then who are anyone to say that's a wrong decision for me?

DS, PSP, IPhone, Wii, Xbox360, PS3 - Who gives a flying fuck? Just buy the machine you want and have fun with it.

geez, seriously.

Nobody wants to be told or feel like the decision they made isn't the "right" one and, as in religion and politics, etc, if you're not with me, then you're against me. Pure and simple.

Add that to the Greater Internet Dickwad Theory, stir well and voila, Fanboy.

[KnightWarrior]

*cough* fanboy *cough*

[TheRollingStoner]

My samsung eternity has a dice app for craps or if you iz missing the dice for a board game or something. I'd like to see the iPhone do that.

Roll them bones, click CLACK!!

[KnightWarrior]

What's pissing me off is..that site is a Mac site, of course it would say it's owning both the PSP & the DS

The Iphone isn't a Gaming Platform, the DS & PSP is...it's a god damn phone

[TheRollingStoner]

But why would little Mac lie? Don't you trust them?

[JDB]

I've found this musical composition to help you enjoy this thread.

MK6TXMsvgQg

*puts monocle in*
Stands up for the National Anthem.

[Metal_Sonic]

My suggestion is whenever a thread like this appears, we take the OP and put them out on the street for this:
_ymJ5EU-auA

[Rusty Venture]

*puts monocle in*
Stands up for the National Anthem.

Written by an American for the Monocle Empire.

[JDB]

Written by an American for the Monocle Empire.

and the Star-Spangled banner was a British drinking song before it was the American national anthem.

[Dunn]

Nobody wants to be told or feel like the decision they made isn't the "right" one and, as in religion and politics, etc, if you're not with me, then you're against me. Pure and simple.

Add that to the Greater Internet Dickwad Theory, stir well and voila, Fanboy.

well, they're just dipshits then. nuff said

[17daysolderthannes]

OK, I'm not even going to try to address every comment because that would take a 40 hour work week, but I'll sum up the arguments and respond accordingly.

1. The point of this thread was my little way of saying "ha ha, WRONG!" to all of the people that continually denied any possibility of iPhone video game market prominence. It is clearly gaining massive popularity in the gaming world. The fact that it is a phone has nothing to do with it. More people are gaming on the iphone, period. As for cost, an iPod Touch is similarly priced to a PSP and can theoretically do alot more and is a much smaller/more portable package. I guess a modded PSP could theoretically have homebrew apps to bridge the gap, but you would still miss out on the speedy/fluid multi-touch interface. In other words, who REALLY wants to surf the web on a PSP using the joystick nub and typing with the d-pad and x button? In my opinion, the fact that the iPhone is a phone makes it exponentially better than a dedicated portable game system because most normal people keep a phone with them at all times and don't haul a PSP with them.

2. Everyone complaining about a lack of buttons is missing the point. The multi-touch screen and accelerometers allows for games that go outside the limitations of a standard d-pad+buttons+joysticks. Games like Touchgrind and One Way Home would be awkward if not impossible to properly pull off on a conventional controller. Also, the accelerometer controls are much sharper and refined than the Wii (maybe Wii Motion Plus is more competitive) and make for an excellent experience with driving and flying games (and since I'm a huge racing game fan, that works great for me). While some people think they need the feel of buttons to play, the fact that buttons appear on screen right in your field of view actually makes it much easier than remembering the mapping of 8 action buttons. On an iPhone, to go, you simply press the gas pedal shaped on screen icon, simple. Now, I'm not saying a controller add-on wouldn't be awesome, but IMO that's what consoles are for. I mean, if you want to play a fighting game, get an arcade joystick and do it right.

examples of games that wouldn't work on another platform:

6uDKCBiYDOk

dV0ntP4Q574

3. Piracy is rampant and an issue on all systems. If 1/4 of iPhone/iPod Touch owners buy a game and 2/4 pirate it, 1/4 still bought the game and brought serious revenue to the creators. I would argue that the DS and PSP have more rampant piracy than any video game system during its relevant lifespan, so compared to the iPhone, I would say they are all on the same page. PSP and DS piracy is harder to pinpoint because they don't have online score boards, etc. like the iPhone (at least not as prominent and regularly used). Gameloft's sales numbers alone hints that piracy isn't even close to harming the iPhone developers. I mean, seriously, how lame do you have to be to pirate a $5 game? I can only imagine kids without credit cards would even want to waste their time hunting for these games when any reasonable person would just buy it for 99¢ and not tie up their internet and time to download it. Even at a McDonald's wage, you would still be better off working a real job instead of spending that time to find and bootleg a game.

4. misc other stuff:

The Wii Virtual Console is not any more convenient than a PC emulator, get real. I would bet anyone with cash in their pocket I could download an emulator and any give game ROM faster than someone could trudge through that slow ass Wii Shop channel and download that same game on the Wii. Granted, the PC isn't connected to a CRT TV, but IMO anyone that is watching TV shows or Movies via digital files on their PC (or plans to) or uses services like Hulu should invest in a cable to hook up to their CRT TV. PC emulators are also more open ended and allow much more customization and controller options.

as for "trendiness," thanks for misreading my statement asshat. I never said any electronic device will get you laid, that's effing retarded. I simply said playing a game on your phone in class/waiting for some form of public transit/etc. is alot less out of place and creepy than bashing buttons on a PSP or DS. It has nothing to do with being ashamed of playing video games, I often wear shirts like my "Genesis Does what Nintendon't" or "Powerglove Rocks the 80's" shirts when I go out. If you don't get it, fine, but trust me when I say it's alot less creepy to play a game on your phone for 5 minutes than whipping out your PSP and going bananas. And I don't like being accused of having a "bump in grind" lifestyle either, I'm not a fucking jersey shore guido, forgive me for being good with women :roll: ...and now cue everyone calling me a narcissist for trying to qualify my statements.


Ugh, I hate the internet...no matter what you say, you lose. If you make a statement, someone immediately jumps up your ass calling you wrong/an asshole/stupid and then when you substantially qualify your statement, they attack your credentials (so what if you're an engineer/did console repair!), call you arrogant/narcissistic (is it lonely on your pedestal?), say "the internet: serious business" to act like you're an asshole for making a rebuttal, or change the subject to something irrelevant to skirt the fact that they were proved wrong (but what about piracy on the iphone! but I like my DS! [even though that has nothing to do with how good the iPhone is]). There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with an opinion, but dammed if I'm going to let someone stomp all over mine on bullshit pretenses (like saying the iphone sucks for games when you've never used one for any length of time nor know what's available) just because you got butthurt somewhere else. Has it occurred to anyone that I might be trying to turn you on to the next big thing in games in general instead of trying to brag about a possession? Seriously, are you all 10? I haven't met anyone in real life that is so resistant to a positive suggestion. "Hey try out the iPhone! I love it! I barely use my PSP now because it's so awesome!" "FUCK YOU! DS FOR LIFE! PSP PWNS YOUR MOM! FAG!"

$10 says everyone ignores this entire post but simply quotes the last statement in quotation marks above and goes on and on about "butthurt" or "too serious" when everyone has been shitting on my face for the past 5 pages.

[omp]

Ugh, I hate the internet...no matter what you say, you lose. If you make a statement, someone immediately jumps up your ass calling you wrong/an asshole/stupid and then when you substantially qualify your statement, they attack your credentials (so what if you're an engineer/did console repair!), call you arrogant/narcissistic (is it lonely on your pedestal?), say "the internet: serious business" to act like you're an asshole for making a rebuttal, or change the subject to something irrelevant to skirt the fact that they were proved wrong (but what about piracy on the iphone! but I like my DS! [even though that has nothing to do with how good the iPhone is]). There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with an opinion, but dammed if I'm going to let someone stomp all over mine on bullshit pretenses (like saying the iphone sucks for games when you've never used one for any length of time nor know what's available) just because you got butthurt somewhere else. Has it occurred to anyone that I might be trying to turn you on to the next big thing in games in general instead of trying to brag about a possession? Seriously, are you all 10? I haven't met anyone in real life that is so resistant to a positive suggestion. "Hey try out the iPhone! I love it! I barely use my PSP now because it's so awesome!" "FUCK YOU! DS FOR LIFE! PSP PWNS YOUR MOM! FAG!"



Butthurt is a serious business

Where's my $10 (well $11.30 AU).

iPhones haven't really taken off in Australia as far as I am aware. A few people that I know have them and they do seem pretty cool. I guess cost is a major contributing factor here, for some reason we pay a shit load for anything electronic here.

EG we pay around the $400-$450AU for a PSP GO, doing a quick search on EB america you guys pay $250. PSP3000 we pay $277AU, you guys $170. There isn't such a big difference between the nintendo's though only about $10-20.

[17daysolderthannes]

Butthurt is a serious business

Where's my $10 (well $11.30 AU).

iPhones haven't really taken off in Australia as far as I am aware. A few people that I know have them and they do seem pretty cool. I guess cost is a major contributing factor here, for some reason we pay a shit load for anything electronic here.

EG we pay around the $400-$450AU for a PSP GO, doing a quick search on EB america you guys pay $250. PSP3000 we pay $277AU, you guys $170. There isn't such a big difference between the nintendo's though only about $10-20.

first of all, you don't understand how wagering works, the bet was that someone would quote just the last statement, in which case I receive $10 from every taker of the bet, so you would give me the $10.

Second of all, keep in mind that I'm in America and am speaking to the American market. If the iPhone is prohibitively expensive where you live, obviously it's a different argument, but you can't really ask me to know how economically viable it is in every country. Also, is it just that Australia has a more inflated currency than America? How much is a burger at McDonald's in Australia? a loaf of white bread? some eggs? It's hard to gauge prices when currency may be valued differently from country to country.

And again, if you (and I'm speaking in general, not just you OMP) are the kind of person that loses your phone all the time or is having a tight financial time, it's understandable you don't want to get an iPhone. But if you're good about keeping up with your phone, it's a great piece of hardware. For some reason no one wants to believe that the restricted nature of the iPhone is actually what makes it so great, but it's the truth, and anyone that has one knows that. If only people would just take an honest look at it...

[Guntz]

And I don't like being accused of having a "bump in grind" lifestyle either, I'm not a fucking jersey shore guido, forgive me for being good with women :roll: ...and now cue everyone calling me a narcissist for trying to qualify my statements.

I only name people by the examples they give me. Anybody who's "good with the ladies" can't say they don't have a bump 'n grind lifestyle with a straight face. That's like saying you're an expert on weed but have never smoked it before.


If only people would just take an honest look at it...

I love this line. Just this one line. It's easily the most ironic thing you've said in this whole thread. Everyone here has been telling you to give the PSP, the DS, the Wii and anything else you bash, a try. You say no very sternly, yet have the balls to tell those very same people to "give the iPhone a try". Priceless! :D

[Rusty Venture]

and the Star-Spangled banner was a British drinking song before it was the American national anthem.

Borrowed. ;)

[JDB]

Borrowed. ;)

No no no, be my guest. I insist!

[omp]

first of all, you don't understand how wagering works, the bet was that someone would quote just the last statement, in which case I receive $10 from every taker of the bet, so you would give me the $10.

Second of all, keep in mind that I'm in America and am speaking to the American market. If the iPhone is prohibitively expensive where you live, obviously it's a different argument, but you can't really ask me to know how economically viable it is in every country. Also, is it just that Australia has a more inflated currency than America? How much is a burger at McDonald's in Australia? a loaf of white bread? some eggs? It's hard to gauge prices when currency may be valued differently from country to country.

And again, if you (and I'm speaking in general, not just you OMP) are the kind of person that loses your phone all the time or is having a tight financial time, it's understandable you don't want to get an iPhone. But if you're good about keeping up with your phone, it's a great piece of hardware. For some reason no one wants to believe that the restricted nature of the iPhone is actually what makes it so great, but it's the truth, and anyone that has one knows that. If only people would just take an honest look at it...

Sorry, just stirring (refer pic).

McDonalds burger, I think (don't eat Macca's) a big mac meal is around the $8(?) for the large (we don't have super size).
I bought some Helga's Rye bread yesterday for $4.95
Eggs, I get the Free range RSPCA for about the $4.00 for 12 (or I can go to my folks and get some from there)
Yes we probably do have a higher inflation.
We do fun stuff like pay tax twice on fuel, Fuel excise (0.38c/L) and then GST (10%).
I stilll have my original mobile phone from about 13yrs ago packed away lol.

[17daysolderthannes]

I only name people by the examples they give me. Anybody who's "good with the ladies" can't say they don't have a bump 'n grind lifestyle with a straight face. That's like saying you're an expert on weed but have never smoked it before.

Well then you aren't very familiar with the night life social scene. I don't go to clubs, so there's no "bumping and grinding" to be done. I go to bars inhabited primarily by the hipsters/alt. crowd and many of the girls just happen to be that semi-hippie free spirit type. Unless bump n' grind is your weird 6th grade word for "sex," I am not a bump n' grinder.




I love this line. Just this one line. It's easily the most ironic thing you've said in this whole thread. Everyone here has been telling you to give the PSP, the DS, the Wii and anything else you bash, a try. You say no very sternly, yet have the balls to tell those very same people to "give the iPhone a try". Priceless! :D

Well, as no one ever wants to fucking keep track and read what I write before posting a response, I HAVE a Wii, I HAVE a PSP (2 actually: a 1000 and 2000), and I have plenty of hands on with the DS as well. I use my PSP a decent amount because of its perfect PSX emulation, excellent Genesis/NES emulation, and a small handful of nice compilations and PS2 ports that tickle my pickle (and a couple PSP exclusives like the 2.5D mega man games). As for the DS and Wii, the Wii is just sloppy and half-baked all around and the DS is just horribly dated and that stylus ruins the experience. The finger-based multi-touch nature of the iPhone makes the DS a completely obsolete piece of hardware. I think New Super Mario Bros. is the only DS game I would buy if someone gave me one. Also, as I continue to mention, the fact that the iPhone is a phone makes it infinitely more convenient because anyone with any kind of responsibility always keeps a phone with them, thus your games are always with you as well. I don't know what kind of pants you all wear, but once I get my phone, keys, and wallet, my pockets are tapped out (I don't use back pockets, both for theft prevention as well as the fact I don't like sitting on lumps). So all I'm saying is just TRY the damn thing before you say what it does or doesn't have. I think the worst part of the iPhone is that many of the best games are obscure, much like the Sega Genesis, but if you're looking for a quick smattering of good games, go Gameloft and you can't go wrong.

[MrMatthews]

a couple PSP exclusives like the 2.5D mega man games

Word.

The best Mega Man X game has already been recreated with Maverick Hunter X, so I could care less if that series continues. But where the hell is Mega Man 2 Powered Up? I'd buy a PSP Go for that one, if that's what it took.

[zetastrike]

the reason that I have no interest in iphone gaming is because it seems to have a glut of gimmicky motion controlled driving/minigames. That's exactly why I hate the Wii. It looks like a lot of shovelware. I read Retro Gamer's iphone game reviews and they all look like a waste of time. I can't really see it becoming the dominant handheld.

[Rusty Venture]

Unless bump n' grind is your weird 6th grade word for "sex," I am not a bump n' grinder.

I'm a bit confused as to how "bump & grind" would be overly juvenile, especially coming from someone who has used the term "second base" to refer to older women. I have never met a single person older than 16 who would seriously use that term.

Considering you dropped it when referring about a woman who is 27 is an entire goddamn comedy festival rolled into one sentence.

[ApolloBoy]

the reason that I have no interest in iphone gaming is because it seems to have a glut of gimmicky motion controlled driving/minigames. That's exactly why I hate the Wii.
That's petty to hate a system just because it has a glut of shovelware. Just don't buy shovelware games and you'll be fine.

[old man]

and the Star-Spangled banner was a British drinking song before it was the American national anthem.

We use it for football games now. So, there's a lot of drinking involved with it over here too.

[TheRollingStoner]

OK, I'm not even going to try to address every comment because that would take a 40 hour work week, but I'll sum up the arguments and respond accordingly.

1. The point of this thread was my little way of saying "ha ha, WRONG!" to all of the people that continually denied any possibility of iPhone video game market prominence. It is clearly gaining massive popularity in the gaming world. The fact that it is a phone has nothing to do with it. More people are gaming on the iphone, period. As for cost, an iPod Touch is similarly priced to a PSP and can theoretically do alot more and is a much smaller/more portable package. I guess a modded PSP could theoretically have homebrew apps to bridge the gap, but you would still miss out on the speedy/fluid multi-touch interface. In other words, who REALLY wants to surf the web on a PSP using the joystick nub and typing with the d-pad and x button? In my opinion, the fact that the iPhone is a phone makes it exponentially better than a dedicated portable game system because most normal people keep a phone with them at all times and don't haul a PSP with them.

2. Everyone complaining about a lack of buttons is missing the point. The multi-touch screen and accelerometers allows for games that go outside the limitations of a standard d-pad+buttons+joysticks. Games like Touchgrind and One Way Home would be awkward if not impossible to properly pull off on a conventional controller. Also, the accelerometer controls are much sharper and refined than the Wii (maybe Wii Motion Plus is more competitive) and make for an excellent experience with driving and flying games (and since I'm a huge racing game fan, that works great for me). While some people think they need the feel of buttons to play, the fact that buttons appear on screen right in your field of view actually makes it much easier than remembering the mapping of 8 action buttons. On an iPhone, to go, you simply press the gas pedal shaped on screen icon, simple. Now, I'm not saying a controller add-on wouldn't be awesome, but IMO that's what consoles are for. I mean, if you want to play a fighting game, get an arcade joystick and do it right.

[/YOUTUBE]

3. Piracy is rampant and an issue on all systems. If 1/4 of iPhone/iPod Touch owners buy a game and 2/4 pirate it, 1/4 still bought the game and brought serious revenue to the creators. I would argue that the DS and PSP have more rampant piracy than any video game system during its relevant lifespan, so compared to the iPhone, I would say they are all on the same page. PSP and DS piracy is harder to pinpoint because they don't have online score boards, etc. like the iPhone (at least not as prominent and regularly used). Gameloft's sales numbers alone hints that piracy isn't even close to harming the iPhone developers. I mean, seriously, how lame do you have to be to pirate a $5 game? I can only imagine kids without credit cards would even want to waste their time hunting for these games when any reasonable person would just buy it for 99¢ and not tie up their internet and time to download it. Even at a McDonald's wage, you would still be better off working a real job instead of spending that time to find and bootleg a game.

4. misc other stuff:

The Wii Virtual Console is not any more convenient than a PC emulator, get real. I would bet anyone with cash in their pocket I could download an emulator and any give game ROM faster than someone could trudge through that slow ass Wii Shop channel and download that same game on the Wii. Granted, the PC isn't connected to a CRT TV, but IMO anyone that is watching TV shows or Movies via digital files on their PC (or plans to) or uses services like Hulu should invest in a cable to hook up to their CRT TV. PC emulators are also more open ended and allow much more customization and controller options.

as for "trendiness," thanks for misreading my statement asshat. I never said any electronic device will get you laid, that's effing retarded. I simply said playing a game on your phone in class/waiting for some form of public transit/etc. is alot less out of place and creepy than bashing buttons on a PSP or DS. It has nothing to do with being ashamed of playing video games, I often wear shirts like my "Genesis Does what Nintendon't" or "Powerglove Rocks the 80's" shirts when I go out. If you don't get it, fine, but trust me when I say it's alot less creepy to play a game on your phone for 5 minutes than whipping out your PSP and going bananas. And I don't like being accused of having a "bump in grind" lifestyle either, I'm not a fucking jersey shore guido, forgive me for being good with women :roll: ...and now cue everyone calling me a narcissist for trying to qualify my statements.


+1 Most of this I like. You actually defended your opinion rather than resorting -- quite well, I might add, and I respect that. The thing is, when you come in here and start a thread calling everyone "asshats," a certain amount of animosity is to be expected. I understand that you might just be trying to get people interested in the iPhone, but you could do it in a much less abrasive and condescending manner. Yes, I know that you hear that alot here, well, there's a reason: alot of the time you are. You might not mean to, it could just be who you are, and that's fine. It would be nice if you toned it down from time to time, and try to get along with everyone instead of baiting a trap, ie, this thread.

If you didn't like my pedestal remark, you should have seen what I wrote before. ;)

PS: I tried to give you some rep, but apparently, I have done that recently. Have a nice night.

[17daysolderthannes]

I'm a bit confused as to how "bump & grind" would be overly juvenile, especially coming from someone who has used the term "second base" to refer to older women. I have never met a single person older than 16 who would seriously use that term.

Considering you dropped it when referring about a woman who is 27 is an entire goddamn comedy festival rolled into one sentence.

"bump and grind" is juvenile if it's a euphemism for sex, because, well, it just is. I feel the same way about "sucking face." I use the "base" system because it's usually universally understood (holy alliteration batman!) and somewhat subtle because I think it's a bit much to say "I made out and proceeded to fondle and suck her tits while rubbing her vagina..." I mean, there are kids here for cryin out loud and this isn't Penthouse Forum.


the reason that I have no interest in iphone gaming is because it seems to have a glut of gimmicky motion controlled driving/minigames. That's exactly why I hate the Wii. It looks like a lot of shovelware. I read Retro Gamer's iphone game reviews and they all look like a waste of time. I can't really see it becoming the dominant handheld.


That's petty to hate a system just because it has a glut of shovelware. Just don't buy shovelware games and you'll be fine.

I agree that you can't really hate a system because of shovelware, but of course I need to distinguish why shovelware on iPhone=OK and shovelware on Wii=bad. The iPhone still has tons of great/fun games and the super simple ones are often less than $5, so that's not even a decent dessert at a restaurant. Wii games, on the other hand, are a MINIMUM of $10 and that's if they're on clearance, yet they don't even offer what the minimalist iPhone games offer. Also, unlike the iPhone, I don't see many (or any) must have games for the Wii, even the "good" games would only be mediocre on another system. Once you get outside of Mario games, there's not much fun to be had on the Wii, not any that's worth the money anyway. I guess if New Super Mario Bros. Wii, Smash Brothers Brawl, and Super Mario Galaxy are all the games you'll need for the next 5 years, you're set, but personally I never got into smash brothers or the 3D Marios and NSMBW got old fairly quick. Until WiiWare drops to iPhone prices, VC prices drop substantially, and developers start doing more than just cash in on the ignorant casual gamers out there, I can't condone the Wii in any shape or form.

[Rusty Venture]

I mean, there are kids here for cryin out loud and this isn't Penthouse Forum.

Your altruism is inspiring.

The day you quit calling people "asshats" and "retards" is the day I'll start believing it.

[Namakubi]

Your altruism is inspiring.

The day you quit calling people "asshats" and "retards" is the day I'll start believing it.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v331/nicholasliha/street_fighter_3_3rd_strike_dc_52.jpg?t=1266141329

[InternalPrimate]

*Back in SD*

I feel bad that we've gotten to a point where someone can bring up a legitimate source, use it for a topic of discussion that has been widely debated, and people just shrug it off as troll non-sense. Obviously not EVERYONE has taken this tact (Melf being a good example), but just looking at the tags for this thread is discouraging.

That being said, everyone here knows how I feel about 17days. It's not the opinion that I dislike, it's the way one treats others. Just as it's wrong for everyone to personally insult 17days, I've been calling him out for as long as he's been on this forum for calling people "retards" and apparently his new favorite "asshats". It's just not cool. And when someone does present intelligent debate to the topic at hand (again, Melf being the prime example), his condescending tone tosses out any chance of a true debate. It's gotten to a point where it's just not worth it to argue.

As for the iPhone, it's a perfect vehicle for impulse buys - since the $.99 - $10 purchase prices are easy to justify - yet I still don't see it as a legitimate gaming console. Sure, developers are throwing there support to the iPhone, but as Melf already stated, that's exactly what happened with the Wii when it first showed signs of success. Developers see a quick cash-in, and they take advantage. How many quality games by major developers, that aren't ports, are available? And I mean REAL quality (like Chinatown Wars), not Touch Grind quality, which is a glorified tech demo.

17days, you can cry all you want about people not taking you seriously, and claim that you're some kind of prophet, sent to educate the ignorant Sega-16 masses as to the new trend in gaming, yet you throw that all out the window once you throw in manipulated facts, ignore real issues (the DS has just as much if not more pirating?!), and present personal opinions as truth (17days: "I own both a Wii and iPhone, and I say that iPhone games are deeper! Therefore, iPhone games are better. Fact.")

The funny thing is, unlike most people here, I own a Wii, iPhone, DS, PSP, etc... so according to you, we should see eye to eye. Yet we don't. I LOVE my iPhone and consider it one of my favorite purchases ever. But when I want to play a game on the go, or even when I'm relaxing and don't want to play a console, I go straight to my DSi. There are many reasons for why - deeper games, better controls, dual screens - but it all comes down to opinion. So, one more time, here is my opinion:

iPhone games, for the most part, are shallow and gimmicky experiences. Like the Wii, there are some standout titles that showcase the unique functions of the hardware, and their low price point is a great reason to ignore the rest of the crap. When waiting in a line at the bank or wherever, it's nice to whip out my iPhone and fool around for a couple of minutes. But when I want a full gaming experience, there are better options available, both portable and console.

[Puffy2k316]

OK, I'm not even going to try to address every comment because that would take a 40 hour work week, but I'll sum up the arguments and respond accordingly.

1. The point of this thread was my little way of saying "ha ha, WRONG!" to all of the people that continually denied any possibility of iPhone video game market prominence. It is clearly gaining massive popularity in the gaming world. The fact that it is a phone has nothing to do with it. More people are gaming on the iphone, period. As for cost, an iPod Touch is similarly priced to a PSP and can theoretically do alot more and is a much smaller/more portable package. I guess a modded PSP could theoretically have homebrew apps to bridge the gap, but you would still miss out on the speedy/fluid multi-touch interface. In other words, who REALLY wants to surf the web on a PSP using the joystick nub and typing with the d-pad and x button? In my opinion, the fact that the iPhone is a phone makes it exponentially better than a dedicated portable game system because most normal people keep a phone with them at all times and don't haul a PSP with them.

2. Everyone complaining about a lack of buttons is missing the point. The multi-touch screen and accelerometers allows for games that go outside the limitations of a standard d-pad+buttons+joysticks. Games like Touchgrind and One Way Home would be awkward if not impossible to properly pull off on a conventional controller. Also, the accelerometer controls are much sharper and refined than the Wii (maybe Wii Motion Plus is more competitive) and make for an excellent experience with driving and flying games (and since I'm a huge racing game fan, that works great for me). While some people think they need the feel of buttons to play, the fact that buttons appear on screen right in your field of view actually makes it much easier than remembering the mapping of 8 action buttons. On an iPhone, to go, you simply press the gas pedal shaped on screen icon, simple. Now, I'm not saying a controller add-on wouldn't be awesome, but IMO that's what consoles are for. I mean, if you want to play a fighting game, get an arcade joystick and do it right.

examples of games that wouldn't work on another platform:

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3. Piracy is rampant and an issue on all systems. If 1/4 of iPhone/iPod Touch owners buy a game and 2/4 pirate it, 1/4 still bought the game and brought serious revenue to the creators. I would argue that the DS and PSP have more rampant piracy than any video game system during its relevant lifespan, so compared to the iPhone, I would say they are all on the same page. PSP and DS piracy is harder to pinpoint because they don't have online score boards, etc. like the iPhone (at least not as prominent and regularly used). Gameloft's sales numbers alone hints that piracy isn't even close to harming the iPhone developers. I mean, seriously, how lame do you have to be to pirate a $5 game? I can only imagine kids without credit cards would even want to waste their time hunting for these games when any reasonable person would just buy it for 99¢ and not tie up their internet and time to download it. Even at a McDonald's wage, you would still be better off working a real job instead of spending that time to find and bootleg a game.

4. misc other stuff:

The Wii Virtual Console is not any more convenient than a PC emulator, get real. I would bet anyone with cash in their pocket I could download an emulator and any give game ROM faster than someone could trudge through that slow ass Wii Shop channel and download that same game on the Wii. Granted, the PC isn't connected to a CRT TV, but IMO anyone that is watching TV shows or Movies via digital files on their PC (or plans to) or uses services like Hulu should invest in a cable to hook up to their CRT TV. PC emulators are also more open ended and allow much more customization and controller options.

as for "trendiness," thanks for misreading my statement asshat. I never said any electronic device will get you laid, that's effing retarded. I simply said playing a game on your phone in class/waiting for some form of public transit/etc. is alot less out of place and creepy than bashing buttons on a PSP or DS. It has nothing to do with being ashamed of playing video games, I often wear shirts like my "Genesis Does what Nintendon't" or "Powerglove Rocks the 80's" shirts when I go out. If you don't get it, fine, but trust me when I say it's alot less creepy to play a game on your phone for 5 minutes than whipping out your PSP and going bananas. And I don't like being accused of having a "bump in grind" lifestyle either, I'm not a fucking jersey shore guido, forgive me for being good with women :roll: ...and now cue everyone calling me a narcissist for trying to qualify my statements.


Ugh, I hate the internet...no matter what you say, you lose. If you make a statement, someone immediately jumps up your ass calling you wrong/an asshole/stupid and then when you substantially qualify your statement, they attack your credentials (so what if you're an engineer/did console repair!), call you arrogant/narcissistic (is it lonely on your pedestal?), say "the internet: serious business" to act like you're an asshole for making a rebuttal, or change the subject to something irrelevant to skirt the fact that they were proved wrong (but what about piracy on the iphone! but I like my DS! [even though that has nothing to do with how good the iPhone is]). There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with an opinion, but dammed if I'm going to let someone stomp all over mine on bullshit pretenses (like saying the iphone sucks for games when you've never used one for any length of time nor know what's available) just because you got butthurt somewhere else. Has it occurred to anyone that I might be trying to turn you on to the next big thing in games in general instead of trying to brag about a possession? Seriously, are you all 10? I haven't met anyone in real life that is so resistant to a positive suggestion. "Hey try out the iPhone! I love it! I barely use my PSP now because it's so awesome!" "FUCK YOU! DS FOR LIFE! PSP PWNS YOUR MOM! FAG!"

$10 says everyone ignores this entire post but simply quotes the last statement in quotation marks above and goes on and on about "butthurt" or "too serious" when everyone has been shitting on my face for the past 5 pages.

yeah but how an i going to play street fighter on it

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

I like the potential of the i-phones for emulation. Throw in the add on controller and you have a nice multisystem portable handheld.

[Melf]

So you're saying about piracy that developer's would be content to make money of 1/4 of the sales of their products? Do you honestly believe that?

If you read any of the sources I linked to, you'd see that the overwhelming majority of iPhone games that are pirated cost less than $3. Yes, people are pirating cheap games in droves. This is more apparent on the iPhone than on the DS and PSP because Apple has done nothing to stop it. At least Sony and Nintendo upgrade the firmware every so often or change the model to deter piracy. Apple has turned a deaf ear to developer's cries, and unless this changes soon, expect it to hurt development.

And One company's sales doesn't automatically erase the fact that there are scores of companies that are being hurt by piracy. Again, the multiple sources I cited all discuss that fact. Almost half a billion dollars in losses since the platform came out? How can you dismiss that as a non-issue?


Ugh, I hate the internet...no matter what you say, you lose. If you make a statement, someone immediately jumps up your ass calling you wrong/an asshole/stupid and then when you substantially qualify your statement, they attack your credentials (so what if you're an engineer/did console repair!), call you arrogant/narcissistic (is it lonely on your pedestal?), say "the internet: serious business" to act like you're an asshole for making a rebuttal, or change the subject to something irrelevant to skirt the fact that they were proved wrong (but what about piracy on the iphone! but I like my DS! [even though that has nothing to do with how good the iPhone is]). There's nothing wrong with disagreeing with an opinion, but dammed if I'm going to let someone stomp all over mine on bullshit pretenses (like saying the iphone sucks for games when you've never used one for any length of time nor know what's available) just because you got butthurt somewhere else. Has it occurred to anyone that I might be trying to turn you on to the next big thing in games in general instead of trying to brag about a possession? Seriously, are you all 10? I haven't met anyone in real life that is so resistant to a positive suggestion. "Hey try out the iPhone! I love it! I barely use my PSP now because it's so awesome!" "FUCK YOU! DS FOR LIFE! PSP PWNS YOUR MOM! FAG!"

I think this whole thing has more to do with your condescension and arrogance than anything else. Dude, look at this freakin' thread. Read the darn title, for god' sake! You invited a dog pile by making this thread, back up most of your opinions with nothing but anecdotes, and then complain when people rip your arguments apart?

I understand your point about the iPhone being great for gaming, and that's something that I personally have never contested. You just seem unwilling to accept anyone else's opinion but your own, and then with insults flying everywhere, it's no wonder no one takes your argument seriously.

To be fair, many other opinions presented here haven't been more than personal choice and opinion either, but that's what happens in a thread designed specifically to rile people up.

[MrMatthews]

Now seems like a perfectly opportune time to point out that I love my iPhone. LOVE it. But when I'm rattling off examples of it's usefulness to friends and family members, it's gaming prowess never comes up. The majority of the games that are available are only $.99 because that's honestly all they're really worth. Then there are the games that try to replicate a true gaming experience, but these games have been shoe-horned onto the platform only because there's an audience for them. Premium prices on the iPhone still amount to about of a third of their DS/PSP counterparts, but it's a stretch to say they play even half as well. Touch-only controls do not a better game make (see resident evil 4 and GTA Chinatown wars)

[17daysolderthannes]

Your altruism is inspiring.

The day you quit calling people "asshats" and "retards" is the day I'll start believing it.

There's a big difference between calling someone an asshat and graphically describing diddling girls. Also, do you see me directing the term asshat to members like TmEE, KoolKitty89, MN12BIRD, NathanAllan, HoneyTheCat, etc.? no. Certain members earn their titles.


So you're saying about piracy that developer's would be content to make money of 1/4 of the sales of their products? Do you honestly believe that?

Fancy that, an English professor that can't read. Do you think every person with an iPhone buys EVERY game? no. I said if 1/4 of ALL iPhone owners bought a particular game, the developer is doing awesome. If of the remaining 3/4 of owners 2/4 pirate it, the developer still raked in money from 1/4 of the iPhone owners. There is no way for you to determine which of those pirates would've bought the game had there not been a jailbreak available, and in my experience, it would be very few. And who gives a shit what they're "content with?" no one is entitling them to sales. In fact, I read an article about one dude that poured $32,000 into development of some generic puzzle game and only made $500 his first month because he made a game for an oversaturated genre. You get money from people that want to buy what you're selling, you're not just automatically entitled to money because you made a game.



If you read any of the sources I linked to, you'd see that the overwhelming majority of iPhone games that are pirated cost less than $3. Yes, people are pirating cheap games in droves. This is more apparent on the iPhone than on the DS and PSP because Apple has done nothing to stop it. At least Sony and Nintendo upgrade the firmware every so often or change the model to deter piracy. Apple has turned a deaf ear to developer's cries, and unless this changes soon, expect it to hurt development.

And One company's sales doesn't automatically erase the fact that there are scores of companies that are being hurt by piracy. Again, the multiple sources I cited all discuss that fact. Almost half a billion dollars in losses since the platform came out? How can you dismiss that as a non-issue?


Your article makes the same ridiculous claim the RIAA and MPAA makes about music and movies. There are tons of movies I would download from ThePirateBay.org that I would never pay to see. It's one of those "I'd take it if it was free, but I wouldn't pay for it" situations. As I also mentioned, only kids that don't have money anyway would waste their time to bootleg a $3 game because anyone with basic common sense would know their time is more valuable than the $3 price tag. Citing a half-billion dollar loss is assuming that every single pirated game would've been purchased in full if the capability to pirate it was not there, which is a crock of shit. If they were handing out free boxes of hot pockets, wouldn't you grab as much as you could carry vs. the 1 or 2 boxes you would buy if you had to pay for it?


Now seems like a perfectly opportune time to point out that I love my iPhone. LOVE it. But when I'm rattling off examples of it's usefulness to friends and family members, it's gaming prowess never comes up. The majority of the games that are available are only $.99 because that's honestly all they're really worth. Then there are the games that try to replicate a true gaming experience, but these games have been shoe-horned onto the platform only because there's an audience for them. Premium prices on the iPhone still amount to about of a third of their DS/PSP counterparts, but it's a stretch to say they play even half as well. Touch-only controls do not a better game make (see resident evil 4 and GTA Chinatown wars)

Again, I see you lack the knowledge of the less mainstream games. Resident Evil 4 and GTA Chinatown Wars are both from high profile developers and well known franchises, both of which tend to half ass iPhone ports. Gameloft has made a wealth of excellent games for the system like GT Racing (probably better than Gran Turismo for PSP based on the reviews I've seen), an upgraded port of the original Driver, Gangstar (Grand Theft Auto clone), Modern Combat: Sandstorm, Siberian Strike, Castle of Magic, etc.

Maybe some of the discrepancy is between what we look for in a game. I like games that resemble the quick play nature of arcade games, not long winded RPGs with endless tedious storylines that drag on for hours and hours. Some iPhone games might be short, but when you only pay 99¢, it's not a big deal. Also, games like Touchgrind have that open-ended screw around aspect to them, which I actually like. Games like GTA were great to me because I could just drive around and cause mayhem, I didn't play for story progression. PSP games cost almost as much as a console game and usually don't offer nearly as full of an experience. Compare After Burner Black Falcon for PSP to Top Gun for iPhone or Ace Combat for PSP to F.A.S.T. on the iPhone, the iPhone equivalent is either as good or better. Best of all, you aren't tied down to whatever was released on the UMD, I've seen games add boatloads of content after the initial release as a free download. Maybe you would rather spend 10X as much for a 10% longer game, but I wouldn't.

[doomguy]

Cant you just agree to disagree? nobody is "right" its just opinions.

[Melf]

Fancy that, an English professor that can't read. Do you think every person with an iPhone buys EVERY game? no. I said if 1/4 of ALL iPhone owners bought a particular game, the developer is doing awesome. If of the remaining 3/4 of owners 2/4 pirate it, the developer still raked in money from 1/4 of the iPhone owners.

I think you're the one with the reading comprehension problems. You're basically saying that 1/4 would buy it and 2/4 would pirate it. That doesn't change what I said. The only difference here is that you're saying developer should settle for 1/4 sales instead of 3/4. I can see how that's a MUCH better scenario for them. Reaching only a third of your possible sales audience is so good for business!


There is no way for you to determine which of those pirates would've bought the game had there not been a jailbreak available, and in my experience, it would be very few.You're missing the entire point. If it weren't so damn easy to pirate on the iPhone, perhaps sales would be better. And this actually contradicts your "iPhone games are so attractive because they're so much cheaper than Wii games" argument. The whole attraction to the market speculated in the article you linked to in your very first post is based on possible sales. Do you honestly think developers will be content to see their games pirated constantly, even though they're offering them for such low prices? Contrary to what you believe, development does actually cost money.


And who gives a shit what they're "content with?" no one is entitling them to sales. In fact, I read an article about one dude that poured $32,000 into development of some generic puzzle game and only made $500 his first month because he made a game for an oversaturated genre. You get money from people that want to buy what you're selling, you're not just automatically entitled to money because you made a game.Again, if you read any of the articles I linked to - which you obviously didn't -the problem isn't in oversaturated markets. It's in ALL of them.

And as such a vocal advocate of the iPhone as a gaming platform, I'd think you of all people would want to keep developers content. Because if they're not, they'll either raise game prices or pack up and leave. Remember, you're not entitled to them developing for the platform either. They don't have to make games for the iPhone if it's not profitable, no matter how many people own one. Just ask the Wii.


Your article makes the same ridiculous claim the RIAA and MPAA makes about music and movies. There are tons of movies I would download from ThePirateBay.org that I would never pay to see. It's one of those "I'd take it if it was free, but I wouldn't pay for it" situations. As I also mentioned, only kids that don't have money anyway would waste their time to bootleg a $3 game because anyone with basic common sense would know their time is more valuable than the $3 price tag. Citing a half-billion dollar loss is assuming that every single pirated game would've been purchased in full if the capability to pirate it was not there, which is a crock of shit. If they were handing out free boxes of hot pockets, wouldn't you grab as much as you could carry vs. the 1 or 2 boxes you would buy if you had to pay for it?Here's where that reading comprehension problem rears its head again. First, the articles I linked to don't describe a claim made by some faceless, money-grubbing entity. They're by ACTUAL iPHONE DEVELOPERS. When the actual dudes making the games are complaining, it's a different ball game.

Second, the half billion dollar loss is based on projected sales. You know, that thing that companies estimate before giving developers any of their money to make games? Large projected losses means little incentive to invest, which in turn leads to more games in "safe"genres that are sure to sell (and saturate the market) or just fewer games overall.

This is all basic economics, dude.

[17daysolderthannes]

I think you're the one with the reading comprehension problems. You're basically saying that 1/4 would buy it and 2/4 would pirate it. That doesn't change what I said. The only difference here is that you're saying developer should settle for 1/4 sales instead of 3/4. I can see how that's a MUCH better scenario for them. Reaching only a third of your possible sales audience is so good for business!

You're missing the entire point. If it weren't so damn easy to pirate on the iPhone, perhaps sales would be better. And this actually contradicts your "iPhone games are so attractive because they're so much cheaper than Wii games" argument. The whole attraction to the market speculated in the article you linked to in your very first post is based on possible sales. Do you honestly think developers will be content to see their games pirated constantly, even though they're offering them for such low prices? Contrary to what you believe, development does actually cost money.

Again, if you read any of the articles I linked to - which you obviously didn't -the problem isn't in oversaturated markets. It's in ALL of them.

And as such a vocal advocate of the iPhone as a gaming platform, I'd think you of all people would want to keep developers content. Because if they're not, they'll either raise game prices or pack up and leave. Remember, you're not entitled to them developing for the platform either. They don't have to make games for the iPhone if it's not profitable, no matter how many people own one. Just ask the Wii.

Here's where that reading comprehension problem rears its head again. First, the articles I linked to don't describe a claim made by some faceless, money-grubbing entity. They're by ACTUAL iPHONE DEVELOPERS. When the actual dudes making the games are complaining, it's a different ball game.

Second, the half billion dollar loss is based on projected sales. You know, that thing that companies estimate before giving developers any of their money to make games? Large projected losses means little incentive to invest, which in turn leads to more games in "safe"genres that are sure to sell (and saturate the market) or just fewer games overall.

This is all basic economics, dude.

Well, once again, this is completely irrelevant to the point I was making initially, which is that developers are seeing a rapidly expanding market and are flocking to the iPhone rather than the DS and PSP (and maybe Wii), just like I said would happen eventually.

Nevertheless, I'll continue to refute your argument, however irrelevant.

First of all, I like your blogspot sources, what's next, Gamespot forums? And even your sources admit the point that I have been making since the last time you brought this up: the people pirating the games probably wouldn't buy them anyway. If you want to talk ROMs and ISOs (in other words, pirated games) and compare them vs. the legitimately purchased games I have (which consists of over 700), Probably less than 5% of my "collection" is legitimate. You know why? I only have so much money, and many of the games I download as part of complete ROM sets I will never even boot up, I just have them to have them because they were free. I know those sources cite scoreboards as a method of piracy detection, which means that the pirates are in fact playing them, but they might only play it for a day and then move on to the next pirated game on their iPhone, but it's all a count on the server regardless. Claiming the 2/4 of iPhone users that might pirate a game would all buy it if a jailbreak didn't exist is just ludicrous.

The server load on online scoreboards and multiplayer is an interesting point, but I think it should be up to the developers to find a way to lock pirates out of those features (some sort of authenticity check) or make them paid for by sponsors that you see when you go to scoreboard (as my ever favorite example: Skittles) so the point becomes moot.

Your insistence that somehow this will be the end of cheap iPhone games is just plain wrong. At least one of those articles mentioned that the top sellers (I'm assuming by gross) were actually $1-$2 (an impulse buy price for me, $3 and up I at least watch a youtube video or read a review first) and Apple limits the games to $10. While they insist people will pirate at any price, in my practical anecdote about the time-value of money I can't see any sensible human being pirating a 99¢ game when they could do much better (economically speaking) by spending the time they spent searching for the game working at a real job. If anything, piracy is driving prices down because developers are realizing people are less likely to pirate a 99¢ game vs. a $10 one.

When speaking of prices vs. the Wii, I'm talking about the people actually buying the games, not the pirates. Even I might have a sizeable Wii VC collection if the games were a buck each.

I also find objection in that you claim iPhone piracy is somehow infinitely easier and more prominent than PSP or DS piracy. A DS just needs a special memory card to play pirates. A PSP just needs a pandora battery (available all over the web for less than $10 or can even be made by cutting a trace in a normal battery) and a formatted memory stick that literally takes about 5 minutes to acquire the software (Rain's MMS Maker) and run the dummy-proof formatting procedure. Sony made a weak attempt to stop piracy by removing pandora features, but you can still do it via an exploit, even if it's not as versatile. If people aren't pirating on the PSP and DS as much as the iPhone, I can only chalk it up to user ignorance or incompetence, because they're all insanely simple to accomplish.

Just because some developers aren't meeting projected sales doesn't mean piracy is the culprit. The game could be crappy, in an oversaturated market, poorly advertised, among other problems. Sometimes a game just doesn't look appealing and thus people don't buy it, it doesn't mean you can go pointing your fingers at pirates as the #1 cause.

One last thing you didn't touch and I doubt you are aware of as you don't seem to have even used an iPhone before, but all of the jailbroken iPhones I've seen have serious lag in everything they do. People regularly post on youtube videos about how games run slow or choppy and then admit they are running it on a jailbroken iPhone. On the flip side, a modded PSP allows you to run the games better by enabling faster load times from the memory card (vs. UMD) and enabling the full 333Mhz speed of the processor.

So, to conclude, piracy is everywhere on every platform, many developers are doing INCREDIBLY well (like Gameloft), and the casual market seems to be gravitating towards the iPhone for their games. Nuff said.

Oh, and I never said development doesn't cost money, that's just retarded.

And finally, why are you directing this at me? I'm not making iPhone OS nor do I have anything to do with the App Store. You act like it's my responsibility to stop piracy on the iPhone. The facts show developers are all ramping up iPhone game production in spite of this "oh so terrible" piracy, so apparently they are still seeing it as worthwhile even though a handful of iPhone users like to bootleg.

addendum:

and while we're at it, how about all of the piracy on PCs? I could get a blank Ubuntu computer and have it running Windows 7 with a hard drive full of software off the pirate bay in a matter of days (and that's only because I would have to wait for the torrents to download). iPhone piracy probably doesn't come anywhere near PC piracy, so anyone developing for the iPhone is undoubtedly going to do better than PC software designers in that regard.

[kool kitty89]

Sorry, just stirring (refer pic).

McDonalds burger, I think (don't eat Macca's) a big mac meal is around the $8(?) for the large (we don't have super size).
I bought some Helga's Rye bread yesterday for $4.95
Eggs, I get the Free range RSPCA for about the $4.00 for 12 (or I can go to my folks and get some from there)
Yes we probably do have a higher inflation.
We do fun stuff like pay tax twice on fuel, Fuel excise (0.38c/L) and then GST (10%).
I stilll have my original mobile phone from about 13yrs ago packed away lol.

Hmm, I don't think AU is that far off, it fluctuates though (as I recall about 7-8 years ago, $1 AU was closer to .60 USD), but that's world currency mrakets for ya. ;)

BTW, I don't think supersize exists anymore, I haven't seen it anywhere in the last 5+ years, in fact I don't vividly recall it at all prior to that, but I have a vague recollection of it from the late 90s at least. (it would come in handy personally though, well for soem things at least as when my family does go out we usually end up sharing a single lage order of frys among the 3 or 4 of us)

[17daysolderthannes]

Hmm, I don't think AU is that far off, it fluctuates though (as I recall about 7-8 years ago, $1 AU was closer to .60 USD), but that's world currency mrakets for ya. ;)

BTW, I don't think supersize exists anymore, I haven't seen it anywhere in the last 5+ years, in fact I don't vividly recall it at all prior to that, but I have a vague recollection of it from the late 90s at least. (it would come in handy personally though, well for soem things at least as when my family does go out we usually end up sharing a single lage order of frys among the 3 or 4 of us)

Super Size was eradicated after that ridiculous Super Size Me movie came out. I'd like to punch that numnut Morgan Spurlock in the face, what a pseudoscientific cunt. Overeating makes you fat, it's not McDonald's fault.

[Melf]

Well, once again, this is completely irrelevant to the point I was making initially, which is that developers are seeing a rapidly expanding market and are flocking to the iPhone rather than the DS and PSP (and maybe Wii), just like I said would happen eventually.

No, it's entirely relevant. It's just that you only hear the parts that support your argument and ignore everything else. My point was that while developers are flocking to the iPhone now, it might now stay that way due to piracy. I was bringing up a valid point that several iPhone developers have already raised and putting it out there as something to think about. I pointed out that developers flocked to the Wii initially and are now backing off, and the same thing could happen to the iPhone. You were the one who completely dismissed that like you could see the future or something.


First of all, I like your blogspot sources, what's next, Gamespot forums?Says the guy who cited a pro-Apple article from a Mac site and a blogspot article himself. Those blogspots I cited are from actual iPhone developers, so they're relevant. I guess you know more about developing for the platform than they do?


And even your sources admit the point that I have been making since the last time you brought this up: the people pirating the games probably wouldn't buy them anyway. If you want to talk ROMs and ISOs (in other words, pirated games) and compare them vs. the legitimately purchased games I have (which consists of over 700), Probably less than 5% of my "collection" is legitimate. You know why? I only have so much money, and many of the games I download as part of complete ROM sets I will never even boot up, I just have them to have them because they were free. I know those sources cite scoreboards as a method of piracy detection, which means that the pirates are in fact playing them, but they might only play it for a day and then move on to the next pirated game on their iPhone, but it's all a count on the server regardless. Claiming the 2/4 of iPhone users that might pirate a game would all buy it if a jailbreak didn't exist is just ludicrous.Again, you're overriding actual developer testimony with your own personal anecdotes. Now who's using irrelevant information? And who cares if they only play the game once? The fact is that one time they played it was after pirating it, and you don't know for a fact that they wouldn't have bought it. You =/= the gaming industry. And by moving on to the next pirated game, they're perpetuating piracy across multiple releases, and I sincerely doubt they restrict themselves to crappy games in oversaturated markets.

I've cited actual sources from sales watch sites and iPhone developers about projected sales. You know, the people who actually do this shit for a living? You counter with your own personal opinions on piracy.


The server load on online scoreboards and multiplayer is an interesting point, but I think it should be up to the developers to find a way to lock pirates out of those features (some sort of authenticity check) or make them paid for by sponsors that you see when you go to scoreboard (as my ever favorite example: Skittles) so the point becomes moot.Have you ever seen a hardware platform where the software publishers had to find a way around piracy? Do you honestly think developers are going to add that headache and cost to their development cycle?


Your insistence that somehow this will be the end of cheap iPhone games is just plain wrong. At least one of those articles mentioned that the top sellers (I'm assuming by gross) were actually $1-$2 (an impulse buy price for me, $3 and up I at least watch a youtube video or read a review first) and Apple limits the games to $10. While they insist people will pirate at any price, in my practical anecdote about the time-value of money I can't see any sensible human being pirating a 99¢ game when they could do much better (economically speaking) by spending the time they spent searching for the game working at a real job. If anything, piracy is driving prices down because developers are realizing people are less likely to pirate a 99¢ game vs. a $10 one. I can see you know nothing about how businesses work. Piracy drives prices down? Since when? Can you name a single example? How much did it help the Dreamcast? How is it helping the DS or PSP, which you mentioned? Piracy costs companies money, and those who can't raise prices take their wares someplace else, another point you casually chose to ignore.


When speaking of prices vs. the Wii, I'm talking about the people actually buying the games, not the pirates. Even I might have a sizeable Wii VC collection if the games were a buck each.More anecdotal evidence. Besides, comparing Wii development to the iPhone is apples and oranges. Wii development costs are in the millions, far more expensive than the iPhone. It would be more accurate to compare the iPhone to WiiWare, XBLA, or the PSN.


I also find objection in that you claim iPhone piracy is somehow infinitely easier and more prominent than PSP or DS piracy. A DS just needs a special memory card to play pirates. A PSP just needs a pandora battery (available all over the web for less than $10 or can even be made by cutting a trace in a normal battery) and a formatted memory stick that literally takes about 5 minutes to acquire the software (Rain's MMS Maker) and run the dummy-proof formatting procedure. Sony made a weak attempt to stop piracy by removing pandora features, but you can still do it via an exploit, even if it's not as versatile. If people aren't pirating on the PSP and DS as much as the iPhone, I can only chalk it up to user ignorance or incompetence, because they're all insanely simple to accomplish. And you just proved my point. Sony made a weak attempt to stop piracy, and Nintendo did so as well. Weak and probably ineffectual, but what has Apple done? NOTHING. A weak attempt is better than none at all. At least Sony and Nintendo recognize there's a problem.


Just because some developers aren't meeting projected sales doesn't mean piracy is the culprit. The game could be crappy, in an oversaturated market, poorly advertised, among other problems. Sometimes a game just doesn't look appealing and thus people don't buy it, it doesn't mean you can go pointing your fingers at pirates as the #1 cause.I never said they were. I know you don't take the time to actually read my posts before you refute them, but if you had, you'd see I was simply stating that piracy could be a problem, one that Apple is not addressing. I cited sources to justify that claim. I never said they would doom the iPhone or anything of the sort.


One last thing you didn't touch and I doubt you are aware of as you don't seem to have even used an iPhone before, but all of the jailbroken iPhones I've seen have serious lag in everything they do. People regularly post on youtube videos about how games run slow or choppy and then admit they are running it on a jailbroken iPhone. On the flip side, a modded PSP allows you to run the games better by enabling faster load times from the memory card (vs. UMD) and enabling the full 333Mhz speed of the processor.And this has what to do with anything I said?


So, to conclude, piracy is everywhere on every platform, many developers are doing INCREDIBLY well (like Gameloft), and the casual market seems to be gravitating towards the iPhone for their games. Nuff said.Yes, because Gameloft is the only developer on iPhone.


And finally, why are you directing this at me? I'm not making iPhone OS nor do I have anything to do with the App Store. You act like it's my responsibility to stop piracy on the iPhone. The facts show developers are all ramping up iPhone game production in spite of this "oh so terrible" piracy, so apparently they are still seeing it as worthwhile even though a handful of iPhone users like to bootleg. You're the one who started a thread about how right you were and how wrong everyone else was. This paragraph alone shows that you don't read anything that doesn't support your argument. I answered this with my first post five pages back.


addendum:

and while we're at it, how about all of the piracy on PCs? I could get a blank Ubuntu computer and have it running Windows 7 with a hard drive full of software off the pirate bay in a matter of days (and that's only because I would have to wait for the torrents to download). iPhone piracy probably doesn't come anywhere near PC piracy, so anyone developing for the iPhone is undoubtedly going to do better than PC software designers in that regard.And how is the PC gaming industry? Doing well, isn't? Oh wait, no it's not. In fact, half of the best-selling PC games of 2009 (http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_100114.html) weren't even released that year. If it weren't for World of Warcraft, there'd be no PC sales at all.

And for shits and giggles, the top ten console and portable sales of 2009 don't include a single iPhone game, but 7 of the 10 games are from Nintendo.

[Knuckle Duster]

Personally, I'd rather develop an app for Facebook than iPhone.
It would be less of a headache to invest work in.

If you asked me why the price point is 99c-$10 for an app. I wouldn't expect it to be 'due to piracy risk', that's ridiculous.

It would be because the current paradigm of any established cell phone web app marketplace is to pump out something cheaply enough to develop, and hook an impulse buy after achieving critical mass through utilizing social networking.

Many would agree that this is how "shit is getting done", but only a fool would deny that Apple's their own worst enemy in their own circumstance. The option of full games development with 'practical costs' is non-existent due to their insecurity & own stranglehold on developers.
They can't protect return investment due to piracy, they deny or delay applications randomly which can kill small developers, further than that they delay patches which could be critical updates. Developers are pissed and want 'something better' while apple continually remains silent.

PC gaming has been so shell-shocked by piracy & bandwidth increases, that it's dead in the traditional context & evolved to become subscription or micro transaction reliant active web content. It's the only way to make money.
The social layer of 'real money' being a part of the product itself rather than a one time investment is the only way companies can be profitable these days. Not having multiple security roadblocks would effectively make you dead in the water as a traditional platform. Apple is essentially the worst developer support in the 'gaming business' right now, while everybody collectively is on a sinking ship.

[17daysolderthannes]

No, it's entirely relevant. It's just that you only hear the parts that support your argument and ignore everything else. My point was that while developers are flocking to the iPhone now, it might now stay that way due to piracy. I was bringing up a valid point that several iPhone developers have already raised and putting it out there as something to think about. I pointed out that developers flocked to the Wii initially and are now backing off, and the same thing could happen to the iPhone. You were the one who completely dismissed that like you could see the future or something.

no, it's completely irrelevant, but nevertheless here I am wasting my time on your off-topic nonsense once again.

For the record, I called it long before the Wii or PS3 was released that the Wii would be the champion of this generation because it was more accessibly priced and promised (what seemed like) real innovation. While I was right about the sales performance, I was sorely disappointed in actual software releases. The iPhone is a logical transition from the Wii because more and more people are getting iPhones for the sole reason it's a good smartphone and then to discover there are a wealth of great games for less than $10 with accelerometer and intuitive touch screen controls makes it very appealing compared to a system with a similar experience that costs $200 plus $50 a game. It doesn't take an accountant to see the obvious financial reasons behind the rise in iPhone game popularity.



Says the guy who cited a pro-Apple article from a Mac site and a blogspot article himself. Those blogspots I cited are from actual iPhone developers, so they're relevant. I guess you know more about developing for the platform than they do?

Being a developer doesn't have shit to do with knowing what piracy is going on. I'm a mechanical engineer specializing in heavy machine design for oilfield use, that doesn't mean I have a fucking clue how much Chinese made equipment is taking away sales from the company I work for. On the same note, being a developer doesn't mean you have a clue how bad piracy is hurting your software sales.



Again, you're overriding actual developer testimony with your own personal anecdotes. Now who's using irrelevant information? And who cares if they only play the game once? The fact is that one time they played it was after pirating it, and you don't know for a fact that they wouldn't have bought it. You =/= the gaming industry. And by moving on to the next pirated game, they're perpetuating piracy across multiple releases, and I sincerely doubt they restrict themselves to crappy games in oversaturated markets.

And again you're giving ultimate authority to a couple of whining indie developers. I could learn some rudimentary iPhone programming skills and release a shit app, would you take my word for infallible fact then? No, and these people shouldn't be taken as experts either.



I've cited actual sources from sales watch sites and iPhone developers about projected sales. You know, the people who actually do this shit for a living? You counter with your own personal opinions on piracy.

Again, because they know how to program and can crap out an app, they are the ultimate authority on what sales they should get? Companies are wrong about sales projections all the time, that doesn't mean piracy is the cause. Once again placing ultimate authority on someone that doesn't have any qualifications to claim such.



Have you ever seen a hardware platform where the software publishers had to find a way around piracy? Do you honestly think developers are going to add that headache and cost to their development cycle?

Yeah, it's called a computer, you're using one right now. Ever heard of serial numbers? online registration? yeah. It's a minimal cost once a system is made up. I don't think it would be so hard to make some sort of mandatory "free" in-game download to fully activate it.



I can see you know nothing about how businesses work. Piracy drives prices down? Since when? Can you name a single example? How much did it help the Dreamcast? How is it helping the DS or PSP, which you mentioned? Piracy costs companies money, and those who can't raise prices take their wares someplace else, another point you casually chose to ignore.

Piracy would drive prices down because there's an obvious point where just buying the game becomes more convenient than pirating it. I can speak for myself that all iPhone games are already in that category for me vs. the PSP where all games are more than I'm willing to pay. Dreamcast, PSP, and DS all had a physical product with markup from retailers and wholesalers, a cut for Sega/Sony/Nintendo, and still some left over for developers. Since the iPhone is a download-only service, all of fat is trimmed. You're still arguing the very two sided argument that pirate copy=lost sale, which I'm telling you for the 1000th time is rarely the case. Ask anyone on this forum if they've downloaded a ROM they wouldn't have paid for, the answer will undoubtedly be "yes" for all but perhaps the ones claiming moral issue with it. There's a reason software like Photoshop, Final Cut, Solidworks, etc. are all heavily pirated: they're fucking expensive and people don't want to pay that much, especially when they aren't using it commercially. On the same token, no one wants to pay $50 for a short PSP game that's just a shadow of a 5 year old PS2 game, but paying $5 for that game on the iPhone is much more appealing. If selling a game on the iPhone for 99¢ maximizes profits, so be it, the per-unit price is negligible in the big picture since the only variable cost is the tiny fraction of bandwidth. Any iPhone developer would rather sell a million copies at 99¢ than 1,000 copies at $5. If you price below the convenience of piracy, people will probably just as soon buy the game even if they aren't sure they'll like it.



More anecdotal evidence. Besides, comparing Wii development to the iPhone is apples and oranges. Wii development costs are in the millions, far more expensive than the iPhone. It would be more accurate to compare the iPhone to WiiWare, XBLA, or the PSN.

Says who? where's YOUR source on this? Are you to tell me Carnival Games cost millions of dollars? pah! yeah right! I don't think I've seen any Wii game that could convince me a million+ budget was used.



And you just proved my point. Sony made a weak attempt to stop piracy, and Nintendo did so as well. Weak and probably ineffectual, but what has Apple done? NOTHING. A weak attempt is better than none at all. At least Sony and Nintendo recognize there's a problem.

More like Apple realizes the futility of the situation. Every time a new OS comes out, they have to find a new crack, so Apple is doing something even though it doesn't specifically pertain to app piracy but rather jailbreaking. I mean, people hacked the PSP GO in like 2 weeks or something. Sorry, but sentiments mean nothing here, a failed attempt is a failed attempt, this isn't self-esteem camp. Also, what stops piracy on all of the other phones? at least Apple requires a jailbreak to run illegitimate apps, I bet most phones can run bootlegged apps right out of the box. Jailbreaking voids the phone warranty and could probably cause ATT to disown you in the case of a service problem, so there is a big risk involved to just pirate a couple cheap games. So, once again, you gotta be pretty stupid to put your service and warranty on the line to jack a couple of pocket change games.




And this has what to do with anything I said?

It has to do with the fact that bootlegged games are crippled as hell. How much would you enjoy a PS3 game if it played at 10FPS? not much, I'll say that. It's hard to call piracy a problem when doing so means games are practically unplayable.




Yes, because Gameloft is the only developer on iPhone.

Gameloft is not the only developer for the iPhone, but they are a MAJOR one and probably the biggest developer of quality exclusives. If Gameloft can flourish in the face of piracy, any other developer can to. Crossing their arms and shouting "piracy took all of my sales away!" is just a weak excuse for making shitty games that no one wants, just like musicians and movie producers do with Limewire and Bittorent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't people pile into theaters to see Avatar even though they could just download it on the pirate bay?



You're the one who started a thread about how right you were and how wrong everyone else was. This paragraph alone shows that you don't read anything that doesn't support your argument. I answered this with my first post five pages back.


And I still am right, developers are flocking to the iPhone, period. People cry crocodile tears when I predict the end of the Wii, but you get to just run in and claim the end of the iPhone game development? Wiis have had soft mods for years now, what about that piracy? There's no way to accurately track it, that's why you haven't heard of it.




And how is the PC gaming industry? Doing well, isn't? Oh wait, no it's not. In fact, half of the best-selling PC games of 2009 (http://www.npd.com/press/releases/press_100114.html) weren't even released that year. If it weren't for World of Warcraft, there'd be no PC sales at all.

And for shits and giggles, the top ten console and portable sales of 2009 don't include a single iPhone game, but 7 of the 10 games are from Nintendo.

I would argue it's because PC gaming is expensive because of pricey hardware upgrades as well as the fact that an XBOX 360 or PS3 offers outstanding graphical quality for eeePC prices. It just doesn't make sense to try to game on a PC when console gaming is where it is.

And have you considered that perhaps the iPhone wasn't tallied in that 2009 sales count? That chart clearly says "SKUs" and last time I checked, you can't put a barcode on a digital file. But no, keep your irrelevant arguments from shakey sources coming.

To conclude, any asshat can shell out $200 and become an iPhone developer. So if I did so tomorrow, could I come back and tell you how life is great and piracy doesn't exist? no, I couldn't, BECAUSE PAYING $200 AND GETTING A DEVELOPMENT KIT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A PIRACY EXPERT. My initial statement still holds true, your arguments are irrelevant, you're just trying a very weak tangent argument with more holes than swiss cheese more flakiness than a Pillsbury biscuit. Piracy exists on all platforms and I know from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that it is equally easy among the DS, PSP, and iPhone and there are many serious consequences of pursuing iPhone piracy versus virtually none for the DS and PSP. No matter how you slice it, the iPhone is the new portable gaming hotness whether you like it or want to accept it or not.




If you asked me why the price point is 99c-$10 for n app. I wouldn't expect it to be 'due to piracy risk', that's ridiculous.


It's that way because Apple has a $10 cap on games, period. I can't tell you exactly why they chose that price point as it seems it would run off developers looking to make more in-depth games, but in the end it works out great for the consumer as many games are very good bargains. I mean, hell, the HD upgrade of Driver is about as much as a used copy of Driver for PSX.

[InternalPrimate]

no, it's completely irrelevant, but nevertheless here I am wasting my time on your off-topic nonsense once again.

For the record, I called it long before the Wii or PS3 was released that the Wii would be the champion of this generation because it was more accessibly priced and promised (what seemed like) real innovation. While I was right about the sales performance, I was sorely disappointed in actual software releases. The iPhone is a logical transition from the Wii because more and more people are getting iPhones for the sole reason it's a good smartphone and then to discover there are a wealth of great games for less than $10 with accelerometer and intuitive touch screen controls makes it very appealing compared to a system with a similar experience that costs $200 plus $50 a game. It doesn't take an accountant to see the obvious financial reasons behind the rise in iPhone game popularity.



Being a developer doesn't have shit to do with knowing what piracy is going on. I'm a mechanical engineer specializing in heavy machine design for oilfield use, that doesn't mean I have a fucking clue how much Chinese made equipment is taking away sales from the company I work for. On the same note, being a developer doesn't mean you have a clue how bad piracy is hurting your software sales.



And again you're giving ultimate authority to a couple of whining indie developers. I could learn some rudimentary iPhone programming skills and release a shit app, would you take my word for infallible fact then? No, and these people shouldn't be taken as experts either.



Again, because they know how to program and can crap out an app, they are the ultimate authority on what sales they should get? Companies are wrong about sales projections all the time, that doesn't mean piracy is the cause. Once again placing ultimate authority on someone that doesn't have any qualifications to claim such.



Yeah, it's called a computer, you're using one right now. Ever heard of serial numbers? online registration? yeah. It's a minimal cost once a system is made up. I don't think it would be so hard to make some sort of mandatory "free" in-game download to fully activate it.



Piracy would drive prices down because there's an obvious point where just buying the game becomes more convenient than pirating it. I can speak for myself that all iPhone games are already in that category for me vs. the PSP where all games are more than I'm willing to pay. Dreamcast, PSP, and DS all had a physical product with markup from retailers and wholesalers, a cut for Sega/Sony/Nintendo, and still some left over for developers. Since the iPhone is a download-only service, all of fat is trimmed. You're still arguing the very two sided argument that pirate copy=lost sale, which I'm telling you for the 1000th time is rarely the case. Ask anyone on this forum if they've downloaded a ROM they wouldn't have paid for, the answer will undoubtedly be "yes" for all but perhaps the ones claiming moral issue with it. There's a reason software like Photoshop, Final Cut, Solidworks, etc. are all heavily pirated: they're fucking expensive and people don't want to pay that much, especially when they aren't using it commercially. On the same token, no one wants to pay $50 for a short PSP game that's just a shadow of a 5 year old PS2 game, but paying $5 for that game on the iPhone is much more appealing. If selling a game on the iPhone for 99¢ maximizes profits, so be it, the per-unit price is negligible in the big picture since the only variable cost is the tiny fraction of bandwidth. Any iPhone developer would rather sell a million copies at 99¢ than 1,000 copies at $5. If you price below the convenience of piracy, people will probably just as soon buy the game even if they aren't sure they'll like it.



Says who? where's YOUR source on this? Are you to tell me Carnival Games cost millions of dollars? pah! yeah right! I don't think I've seen any Wii game that could convince me a million+ budget was used.



More like Apple realizes the futility of the situation. Every time a new OS comes out, they have to find a new crack, so Apple is doing something even though it doesn't specifically pertain to app piracy but rather jailbreaking. I mean, people hacked the PSP GO in like 2 weeks or something. Sorry, but sentiments mean nothing here, a failed attempt is a failed attempt, this isn't self-esteem camp. Also, what stops piracy on all of the other phones? at least Apple requires a jailbreak to run illegitimate apps, I bet most phones can run bootlegged apps right out of the box. Jailbreaking voids the phone warranty and could probably cause ATT to disown you in the case of a service problem, so there is a big risk involved to just pirate a couple cheap games. So, once again, you gotta be pretty stupid to put your service and warranty on the line to jack a couple of pocket change games.



It has to do with the fact that bootlegged games are crippled as hell. How much would you enjoy a PS3 game if it played at 10FPS? not much, I'll say that. It's hard to call piracy a problem when doing so means games are practically unplayable.




Gameloft is not the only developer for the iPhone, but they are a MAJOR one and probably the biggest developer of quality exclusives. If Gameloft can flourish in the face of piracy, any other developer can to. Crossing their arms and shouting "piracy took all of my sales away!" is just a weak excuse for making shitty games that no one wants, just like musicians and movie producers do with Limewire and Bittorent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't people pile into theaters to see Avatar even though they could just download it on the pirate bay?



And I still am right, developers are flocking to the iPhone, period. People cry crocodile tears when I predict the end of the Wii, but you get to just run in and claim the end of the iPhone game development? Wiis have had soft mods for years now, what about that piracy? There's no way to accurately track it, that's why you haven't heard of it.




I would argue it's because PC gaming is expensive because of pricey hardware upgrades as well as the fact that an XBOX 360 or PS3 offers outstanding graphical quality for eeePC prices. It just doesn't make sense to try to game on a PC when console gaming is where it is.

And have you considered that perhaps the iPhone wasn't tallied in that 2009 sales count? That chart clearly says "SKUs" and last time I checked, you can't put a barcode on a digital file. But no, keep your irrelevant arguments from shakey sources coming.

To conclude, any asshat can shell out $200 and become an iPhone developer. So if I did so tomorrow, could I come back and tell you how life is great and piracy doesn't exist? no, I couldn't, BECAUSE PAYING $200 AND GETTING A DEVELOPMENT KIT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A PIRACY EXPERT. My initial statement still holds true, your arguments are irrelevant, you're just trying a very weak tangent argument with more holes than swiss cheese more flakiness than a Pillsbury biscuit. Piracy exists on all platforms and I know from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that it is equally easy among the DS, PSP, and iPhone and there are many serious consequences of pursuing iPhone piracy versus virtually none for the DS and PSP. No matter how you slice it, the iPhone is the new portable gaming hotness whether you like it or want to accept it or not.



It's that way because Apple has a $10 cap on games, period. I can't tell you exactly why they chose that price point as it seems it would run off developers looking to make more in-depth games, but in the end it works out great for the consumer as many games are very good bargains. I mean, hell, the HD upgrade of Driver is about as much as a used copy of Driver for PSX.

I'm calling BS on this whole response. Not one bit of it makes sense. If game developers and publishers don't understand the effects of piracy on sales, who does?

17days is doing this all for attention. Don't believe for a second that he's being genuine, this argument will only go in circles if you do.

[Melf]

For the record, I called it long before the Wii or PS3 was released that the Wii would be the champion of this generation because it was more accessibly priced and promised (what seemed like) real innovation. While I was right about the sales performance, I was sorely disappointed in actual software releases. The iPhone is a logical transition from the Wii because more and more people are getting iPhones for the sole reason it's a good smartphone and then to discover there are a wealth of great games for less than $10 with accelerometer and intuitive touch screen controls makes it very appealing compared to a system with a similar experience that costs $200 plus $50 a game. It doesn't take an accountant to see the obvious financial reasons behind the rise in iPhone game popularity.

It's ironic that you consider yourself to be so well-schooled about what makes the iPhone so much better than the Wii, yet you completely ignore the parallels between the two, something even the head of EA sees (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2008/11/26/iphone-dev-like-wii-ds/). The Wii was really attractive to developers early on because development costs were cheaper, which would in turn lead to cheaper games, and there was a brand new audience to exploit -exactly like the iPhone. That has not lasted, and major companies like Capcom, EA, and Sega are backing off the Wii. My point was that this could - notice I say could before you get all wired up - happen to the iPhone. Apparently, I don't have your crystal ball, as you seem to know more about the iPhone game industry than those who actually make the games.


Being a developer doesn't have shit to do with knowing what piracy is going on. I'm a mechanical engineer specializing in heavy machine design for oilfield use, that doesn't mean I have a fucking clue how much Chinese made equipment is taking away sales from the company I work for. On the same note, being a developer doesn't mean you have a clue how bad piracy is hurting your software sales. This is a ridiculous comparison. Being an engineer working for a company has nothing in common with being the person actually making and distributing a product for a particular platform. The developers aren't faceless employees of a major company; they're the ones actually making and selling the product. I thought the ease and directness of making games for the iPhone was some of the things you were touting about the platform in the first place. Now you're comparing it to working at a major corporation? Ah, that's right, because the former no longer fits your argument, so you have to change gears (or backpedal, as they call it).


And again you're giving ultimate authority to a couple of whining indie developers. I could learn some rudimentary iPhone programming skills and release a shit app, would you take my word for infallible fact then? No, and these people shouldn't be taken as experts either.At least I'm actually citing people working in the industry. You simply retort with your own personal experience as though that were any more authoritative. Care to cite some hard evidence as fuel for all that hot air?


Again, because they know how to program and can crap out an app, they are the ultimate authority on what sales they should get? Companies are wrong about sales projections all the time, that doesn't mean piracy is the cause. Once again placing ultimate authority on someone that doesn't have any qualifications to claim such.Someone who doesn't have any qualifications? The people ACTUALLY MAKING THE FUCKING GAMES? How are you more qualified to make any assumption to the contrary? Where are your sources? You're anecdotal evidence doesn't mean squat.


Yeah, it's called a computer, you're using one right now. Ever heard of serial numbers? online registration? yeah. It's a minimal cost once a system is made up. I don't think it would be so hard to make some sort of mandatory "free" in-game download to fully activate it.So now you compare the iPhone to the PC. Ah, yes, because there isn't a console that supports your argument, and so you have to move the goal posts. Here's the rub though: at least there are serial numbers and online registration on the PC to deter piracy. On the iPhone? Nothing. So you still haven't addressed the issue of how Apple hasn't done shit to stop piracy, though it is funny to see you run around in circles on the issue.


Piracy would drive prices down because there's an obvious point where just buying the game becomes more convenient than pirating it.Dude, you seriously need to take an economics class. There is no way, NO WAY that developers and publishers will lower prices to deter piracy, because people who pirate will do so regardless of price. What do companies do? They withdraw support for a platform that can't stop piracy. It's already happening on the PSP (http://multiplayerblog.mtv.com/2009/10/20/pixel-junk-monsters-psp-piracy-may-hinder-future-portable-pixel-junks/), and it could happen to the iPhone if something isn't done. (That there is called a source, something you haven't cited yet.)


I can speak for myself that all iPhone games are already in that category for me vs. the PSP where all games are more than I'm willing to pay. Dreamcast, PSP, and DS all had a physical product with markup from retailers and wholesalers, a cut for Sega/Sony/Nintendo, and still some left over for developers. Since the iPhone is a download-only service, all of fat is trimmed. You're still arguing the very two sided argument that pirate copy=lost sale, which I'm telling you for the 1000th time is rarely the case. Ask anyone on this forum if they've downloaded a ROM they wouldn't have paid for, the answer will undoubtedly be "yes" for all but perhaps the ones claiming moral issue with it. Again with the anecdotal evidence and jack all to back it up. Your lack of understanding of basic economics is astounding. Your argument is simply that developers will be content with whatever sales they get because all the fat of development is trimmed. That's blatantly false, and I've cited numerous sources to support it, but you don't read them, as your own personal opinion is so much more powerful. Developers do see a pirated copy as a lost sale, because there's no sure way to determine that the person who pirated it wouldn't have bought it. Cite your own personal experience all you want, it doesn't mean jack when it comes time to talk to someone about financing game development.


There's a reason software like Photoshop, Final Cut, Solidworks, etc. are all heavily pirated: they're fucking expensive and people don't want to pay that much, especially when they aren't using it commercially. On the same token, no one wants to pay $50 for a short PSP game that's just a shadow of a 5 year old PS2 game, but paying $5 for that game on the iPhone is much more appealing. If selling a game on the iPhone for 99¢ maximizes profits, so be it, the per-unit price is negligible in the big picture since the only variable cost is the tiny fraction of bandwidth. Any iPhone developer would rather sell a million copies at 99¢ than 1,000 copies at $5. If you price below the convenience of piracy, people will probably just as soon buy the game even if they aren't sure they'll like it.Way to contradict yourself! Gee, if piracy brings down prices, why are Photoshop, Final cut, and Solidworks still so darn expensive? Why haven't PSP and DS games come down in price? Maybe it's because piracy doesn't bring down prices.


Says who? where's YOUR source on this? Are you to tell me Carnival Games cost millions of dollars? pah! yeah right! I don't think I've seen any Wii game that could convince me a million+ budget was used.Right here sir! Unlike you, I actually back up what I say. Wii development costs average between five and eight million (http://www.gamedaily.com/articles/features/cost-of-development-greatly-favors-wii-say-publishers/69714/?biz=1).

Here are some more sources on Wii development costs:

Gamastura (http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=18389):


Leading on from this, an Ubisoft executive gave a breakdown of the company's average development costs per game - not often discussed in public - with a DS title costing between 500,000 to 1,000,000 euros ($785,000-$1.57m), PS3/Xbox 360/PC titles averaging 12 million to 18 million euros ($18.8m-$28.2m) to create for all 3 SKUs, and a Wii game expected to cost 5 million to 6 million euros ($7.8-$9m) to develop.CNET (http://news.cnet.com/8301-10784_3-9823945-7.html?tag=mncol;title):



Developing a game for the DS costs a few hundred thousand dollars. Thus, Nintendo has to sell 100,000 only copies of a game to make money on it.


Wii games cost a little more. Developing a game for Wii might cost $5 million to $10 million, including all of the marketing costs.
Bloomberg (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601101&sid=az3neI1eJui8&refer=japan):


Namco Bandai Holdings Inc. (http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/quote?ticker=7832%3AJP), Japan's second-biggest maker of video-game software, must sell at least half a million copies of a game for Sony Corp.'s PlayStation 3 console to make money on the title, said President Takeo Takasu (http://search.bloomberg.com/search?q=Takeo+Takasu&site=wnews&client=wnews&proxystylesheet=wnews&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&filter=p&getfields=wnnis&sort=date:D:S:d1).

Graphics for the high-definition games cost about 1 billion yen ($8.6 million) to create, more than double that for Nintendo Co.'s Wii titlesI know you won't read them, and you'll probably counter with a powerful personal experience, but it's the truth.


More like Apple realizes the futility of the situation. Every time a new OS comes out, they have to find a new crack, so Apple is doing something even though it doesn't specifically pertain to app piracy but rather jailbreaking. I mean, people hacked the PSP GO in like 2 weeks or something. Sorry, but sentiments mean nothing here, a failed attempt is a failed attempt, this isn't self-esteem camp. Also, what stops piracy on all of the other phones? at least Apple requires a jailbreak to run illegitimate apps, I bet most phones can run bootlegged apps right out of the box. Jailbreaking voids the phone warranty and could probably cause ATT to disown you in the case of a service problem, so there is a big risk involved to just pirate a couple cheap games. So, once again, you gotta be pretty stupid to put your service and warranty on the line to jack a couple of pocket change games.Failed attempts, so long as their consistent, at least reassure the developers that steps are being taken to secure the platform. I'm sure most developers wouldn't be eager to develop for a platform that has a piracy problem, and whose maker says "you guys handle it." That isn't reassuring at all to investors.

There's also a secondary problem with that attitude. Developers who feel they're hard hit (notice I said feel) by piracy and are left to their own devices might decide to take drastic action, like expanding in-game ads (which Apple probably would welcome, considering it has a large share of this (http://www.mobile-ent.biz/news/35925/AdMob-expresses-concern-at-Apples-location-ads-ban)), and even charging for in-game DLC for a game that was cheap or even free. Oh wait, they're already doing that (http://www.pocketgamer.biz/r/PG.Biz/Apple+iPhone+3.0+software/news.asp?c=16209).


It has to do with the fact that bootlegged games are crippled as hell. How much would you enjoy a PS3 game if it played at 10FPS? not much, I'll say that. It's hard to call piracy a problem when doing so means games are practically unplayable.This is what I don't understand about piracy. If the experience isn't exactly like the paid version, what's the point? Is the game being free enough to make people accept it playing like shit?


Gameloft is not the only developer for the iPhone, but they are a MAJOR one and probably the biggest developer of quality exclusives. If Gameloft can flourish in the face of piracy, any other developer can to. Crossing their arms and shouting "piracy took all of my sales away!" is just a weak excuse for making shitty games that no one wants, just like musicians and movie producers do with Limewire and Bittorent. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't people pile into theaters to see Avatar even though they could just download it on the pirate bay? First, no one said that developers are crying about losing all their sales. My point - for like the fifth time - was that they express concern about it and Apple basically ignores them. It could eventually become a major problem, yes, if nothing changes.

Second, Watching a pirated movie on your TV is not the same as seeing it in the movies, especially a film that can be seen in 3D, something not readily available at home. In contrast, using a pirated iPhone app is the same experience as using a purchased one. It's used in the same environment in the same way.


And I still am right, developers are flocking to the iPhone, period. People cry crocodile tears when I predict the end of the Wii, but you get to just run in and claim the end of the iPhone game development? Wiis have had soft mods for years now, what about that piracy? There's no way to accurately track it, that's why you haven't heard of it. Yes, developers are flocking to the iPhone - just liked they flocked to the Wii initially. That's the whole point. There are close parallels between the two, and I'm just suggesting that what's happening to the Wii could happen to the iPhone unless certain issues like piracy, game quality, promotion among thousands of competing products, etc. are addressed. Just because it's happening doesn't automatically mean it's sustainable. I know you take it as a personal offense to your beloved iPhone if someone actually say that it's not the second coming of Christ, but the business reality is there. It's really just a topic for discussion at this point, as neither of us know how things will play out.


I would argue it's because PC gaming is expensive because of pricey hardware upgrades as well as the fact that an XBOX 360 or PS3 offers outstanding graphical quality for eeePC prices. It just doesn't make sense to try to game on a PC when console gaming is where it is.This doesn't address the point you made of piracy dropping prices. Hardware upgrades have nothing to do with it. I still use Dreamweaver 2004 for Sega-16, and? If piracy reduces prices, those games and programs would be cheaper. The same for DS and PSP games.


And have you considered that perhaps the iPhone wasn't tallied in that 2009 sales count? That chart clearly says "SKUs" and last time I checked, you can't put a barcode on a digital file. But no, keep your irrelevant arguments from shakey sources coming.Well, Apple itself doesn't provide sales data, and the only way to find it is to ask those developers you say know nothing. I wonder why Apple isn't touting sales?

And I'll keep citing those shakey sources. You just keep citing no one and relying on your own opinion.


To conclude, any asshat can shell out $200 and become an iPhone developer. So if I did so tomorrow, could I come back and tell you how life is great and piracy doesn't exist? no, I couldn't, BECAUSE PAYING $200 AND GETTING A DEVELOPMENT KIT DOES NOT MAKE YOU A PIRACY EXPERT. My initial statement still holds true, your arguments are irrelevant, you're just trying a very weak tangent argument with more holes than swiss cheese more flakiness than a Pillsbury biscuit. Piracy exists on all platforms and I know from PERSONAL EXPERIENCE that it is equally easy among the DS, PSP, and iPhone and there are many serious consequences of pursuing iPhone piracy versus virtually none for the DS and PSP. No matter how you slice it, the iPhone is the new portable gaming hotness whether you like it or want to accept it or not.LOL. I give up. It's incredible that you put personal opinion over actual developer testimony. Here's a thought: why don't you actually develop something for the iPhone before you dismiss those who actually do? Your opinion is meaningless unless you've actually done what they have, and you haven't. You're just basing your argument on your own personal experience - none of which has jack shit to do with actual iPhone development.

You haven't cited any sources, ignore all those who have, and put your own opinion as fact over everything else, despite the gaping holes in your logic. And you wonder why no one takes you seriously?

[17daysolderthannes]

wow Melf, I gave up halfway through your post. I see why you went into English, you don't understand any other discipline for shit!

First of all, the company I work for employs 9 people, WHAT A HUGE CORPORATION RIGHT! This is the exact size of a small indie development team. I work side by side with the President/CEO/whatever you want to call him and I know every piece of equipment that ships, but that doesn't mean I have any idea when a company chooses an equivalent from MadeinChina.com instead of one of ours nor could I even venture a guess. DEVELOPING GAMES DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN INDUSTRY EXPERT! The fact that you would even make that claim is ludicrous. It's all speculation, and their guess isn't any better than mine or yours. You clearly have never worked in any industry regarding product development, you have no idea how in the dark these people really are on the matter. You think because it's written in some sort of print it's infinite fact and truth? sorry, no. I mean, please, there are boatloads of programmers here, can someone jump in and inform Melf of how wrong his assessment of developer omniscience is?

Your entire argument centers around the idea that little indie dipshit whiny baby developers know EVERYTHING about piracy and are 100% infallible. Oh, and that apparently I'm responsible for stopping piracy on the iPhone as you keep making it seem like I'm working for Apple's piracy prevention department. Like I fucking said and you still didn't fucking read, APPLE ADDS NEW SECURITY FEATURES TO EVERY OS, PEOPLE KEEP FINDING A WORKAROUND TO JAILBREAK, JUST LIKE THE FUCKING PSP! There is NOTHING stopping app developers from finding ways to protect their software in app. I mentioned PC developers because people developing for PC have to find their own way to stop piracy and there is no reason similar measures couldn't be taken on the iPhone. Many are offering free or minimal cost versions of their software and then unlocking features/levels via in-app downloads to skirt pirates, which is actually mentioned in your sources, so who doesn't read again? You obviously have never used an iPhone to any extent nor know anything about jailbreaking.

As for the Wii parallel, that's what I've been saying this whole time! I said the iPhone will replace the Wii because the accelerometers are just like a Wii mote and the touch screen is comparable to the infrared pointer. The iPhone is the closest thing to a Wii portable out there (DS doesn't have accelerometers), only the software isn't all garbage and the accelerometers actually work like they're supposed to. The biggest difference is the iPhone games are practically free and the Wii games cost an arm and a leg for a mini-game compilation.

So, to conclude for the 5th time, the iPhone is the new Wii because of better games, lower prices, and better accessibility while offering virtually the same capabilities. Your piracy argument is a bunch of hot air from whiny clueless developers and you have to be completely ignorant not to see its prevalence on every platform out there. You're just trying to shit on my point in any way possible, but all you're doing is flailing about like a drowning crash survivor in the middle of the ocean, time to just let your head go under water and face reality.

Don't bother responding, your arguments at this point might as well be "nani nani boo boo stick your head in doo doo" and I'm not wasting my time on them anymore. Trying to shoot my FACT that developers are flocking to the iPhone with rampant SPECULATION that piracy might harm development YEARS from now is the most ridiculous thing ever. You said the same thing months ago, yet has production gone down? hell no, it's stronger than ever!

[Puffy2k316]

yeah but how an i going to play street fighter on it

oh the irony

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=387686

[Puffy2k316]

i gotta say im a little scared that i live in a world where street fighter gets a cell phone version and not an arcade version

[17daysolderthannes]

oh the irony

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=387686

holy shit! do want!

yeah, where's the Wii/DS/PSP version? *snicker*

And for the record, if you do go the jailbreak route, you could play SF via a Genesis, GBA, or MAME emulator. I actually read an article that had a screen shot of SF II playing on the iPhone in MAME, but I have no idea where that was to find it again.

this is apparently a PSX emulator version though:

http://www.simonblog.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2008/10/mame_street_figher.jpg


People complain about touch screen controls, but the virtual d-pads work better than you might think once you get the hang of it.

[Puffy2k316]

I trust that Capcom wouldn't let it come out if the touch controls sucked. We'll see though.

[17daysolderthannes]

I trust that Capcom wouldn't let it come out if the touch controls sucked. We'll see though.

god, you don't know how excited about this I am. Maybe this will finally push Apple into releasing a full gamepad. Imagine a joystick that let you dock the iPhone in the middle and then mash out with a full arcade stick, that would rock and could totally be done by soldering to the gamepad PCB. If only Apple would let emulators be sold in the app store, *sigh*.

[17daysolderthannes]

I'm calling BS on this whole response. Not one bit of it makes sense. If game developers and publishers don't understand the effects of piracy on sales, who does?


Because it's impossible to actually know! How do they know how many times a game has been downloaded and if those people would buy the game if the pirate copy wasn't available? There is no way! I could post an iPhone app on megaupload right now and have thousands of people download it with the developer none the wiser. Gameloft is doing great, so they don't count because someone else makes a shitty "Tap Fu" game that looks like a bad flash game and it doesn't sell? whatever. Does Metallica know every time their MP3 is downloaded? fuck no! they just speculate and Lars Ulrich shows up to court all butthurt even though his albums are selling better than ever. Even the articles themselves insist heavily it is just speculation, yet you and Melf seem to think they have absolute numbers of lost sales, copies pirated, etc. GET REAL!

You want to refute it? fine, tell me exactly how they track every pirated copy of every game. Oh, you don't know? you know why? BECAUSE IT'S IMPOSSIBLE!

For fucks sake, can we get some programmers in here to shut up the know-nothings about how this stuff works? please?

[Melf]

wow Melf, I gave up halfway through your post. I see why you went into English, you don't understand any other discipline for shit!

That's funny, because I was just thinking that English was the one discipline you need. Your reading comprehension skills are sorely lacking.


First of all, the company I work for employs 9 people, WHAT A HUGE CORPORATION RIGHT! This is the exact size of a small indie development team. I work side by side with the President/CEO/whatever you want to call him and I know every piece of equipment that ships, but that doesn't mean I have any idea when a company chooses an equivalent from MadeinChina.com instead of one of ours nor could I even venture a guess. DEVELOPING GAMES DOES NOT MAKE YOU AN INDUSTRY EXPERT!

And how are you more qualified to make assertions about the industry than they are?


The fact that you would even make that claim is ludicrous. It's all speculation, and their guess isn't any better than mine or yours. You clearly have never worked in any industry regarding product development, you have no idea how in the dark these people really are on the matter. You think because it's written in some sort of print it's infinite fact and truth? sorry, no. I mean, please, there are boatloads of programmers here, can someone jump in and inform Melf of how wrong his assessment of developer omniscience is?

Well look at you! Now your asking for programmers and developers to chime in? Haven't you been completely dismissing their opinions in this entire thread? Hell, you just did it in the first paragraph of your last post. I won't argue this point with you though, as I'm sure you'll just trot out some personal anecdote and school us all on how what happens to you is representative of the entire industry.


Your entire argument centers around the idea that little indie dipshit whiny baby developers know EVERYTHING about piracy and are 100% infallible. Oh, and that apparently I'm responsible for stopping piracy on the iPhone as you keep making it seem like I'm working for Apple's piracy prevention department. Like I fucking said and you still didn't fucking read, APPLE ADDS NEW SECURITY FEATURES TO EVERY OS, PEOPLE KEEP FINDING A WORKAROUND TO JAILBREAK, JUST LIKE THE FUCKING PSP! There is NOTHING stopping app developers from finding ways to protect their software in app. I mentioned PC developers because people developing for PC have to find their own way to stop piracy and there is no reason similar measures couldn't be taken on the iPhone. Many are offering free or minimal cost versions of their software and then unlocking features/levels via in-app downloads to skirt pirates, which is actually mentioned in your sources, so who doesn't read again? You obviously have never used an iPhone to any extent nor know anything about jailbreaking.

PC is an open platform like the iPhone? There's a single company controlling the distribution and approval of all programs on the PC like Apple does on the iPhone? No, there's not, which is why developers there have to use their own DRM. The iPhone not the same. Read the fucking articles before you respond, please, since you haven't cited a single, a SINGLE source to back up your own claims.

And what the fuck does me having an iPhone have to do with this particular point? If you took the time to read, which you don't, you'd see that the articles I cited - something you don't do, as the hot air from your ass seems to suit you just fine - show it's actual developers complaining, not me. I couldn't give two shits in a handbag about the iPhone, personally, and I have no stake in it. You're the one who takes every comment as though it were an insult against your mom or something.


As for the Wii parallel, that's what I've been saying this whole time! I said the iPhone will replace the Wii because the accelerometers are just like a Wii mote and the touch screen is comparable to the infrared pointer. The iPhone is the closest thing to a Wii portable out there (DS doesn't have accelerometers), only the software isn't all garbage and the accelerometers actually work like they're supposed to. The biggest difference is the iPhone games are practically free and the Wii games cost an arm and a leg for a mini-game compilation.

Funny, because that's not the parallel I was making. Again with the reading comprehension problems...


So, to conclude for the 5th time, the iPhone is the new Wii because of better games, lower prices, and better accessibility while offering virtually the same capabilities. Your piracy argument is a bunch of hot air from whiny clueless developers and you have to be completely ignorant not to see its prevalence on every platform out there. You're just trying to shit on my point in any way possible, but all you're doing is flailing about like a drowning crash survivor in the middle of the ocean, time to just let your head go under water and face reality.

Wow, so you dismiss the developers as whiny, then ask they come in and school me, then dismiss them again as clueless? Nice debate skills. Don't quit your day job!

As for making a point, I see nothing from you but anecdotes and opinion based on nothing. How about backing up your hot air before you just float away? You simply have no idea how to have a discussion with other people, which is why people have responded to this thread the way they have. I try to have an intelligent debate with you, and this is what happens. Serves me right, I guess.


Don't bother responding, your arguments at this point might as well be "nani nani boo boo stick your head in doo doo" and I'm not wasting my time on them anymore. Trying to shoot my FACT that developers are flocking to the iPhone with rampant SPECULATION that piracy might harm development YEARS from now is the most ridiculous thing ever. You said the same thing months ago, yet has production gone down? hell no, it's stronger than ever!

I really wish you would learn to read. I'm an English professor; I can help you with that. Making a baseless opinion and then failing miserably to back it up =/= fact, especially when it's about something NO ONE IS DEBATING IN THE FIRST PLACE. If you actually read, you'd see that no one is arguing about developers coming to the iPhone. But since you'd rather just thrust your ignorant opinion down everyone's throat without citing ANYTHING to back it up, you miss the point entirely. And that's pretty much been your entire pattern this whole thread.

And since your magical anecdotal crystal ball says that years from now piracy won't be an issue. I won't argue with you anymore.




For fucks sake, can we get some programmers in here to shut up the know-nothings about how this stuff works? please?


LOL.

[ApolloBoy]

wow Melf, I gave up halfway through your post. I see why you went into English, you don't understand any other discipline for shit!
Jesus fucking Christ.

[Guntz]

This is absolutely hilarious. Thanks for making my lunch break more enjoyable guys! :D

[TheRollingStoner]

What sounds better, "As Sega-16 turns", or "Days of our Sega-16?"

[Zz Badnusty]

I'm waiting for 17day's account to go silent for a few weeks, and then someone posts the newspaper article about his suicide.

That's usually the outcome for people like him.
That, or substantial drug abuse, or a religious conversion. Or a combination of the three.

[Knuckle Duster]

Developers 'can' see piracy results directly, as the application needs only to phone-home it's usage statistics.

As far as intent to purchase, that's irrelevant to the fact that the user already having the game pirated, legitimately shrinks the size of those who do not have it & could potentially buy it. That dictates the 'lost' sale to the developer.

As I said before, the only sustainable source of income in the industry is constantly active content, evolving from the web; usually this requires subscriptions or micro-transactions, but if the content doesn't evolve anymore, it becomes stagnant & dies. The alternative is a quick release cycle of different content, which usually fails by recycling.

Web apps like Facebook applications, rake in just as much absurd money compared to the app store. The 'true future' for developers is integration of open API's, to get their App's and games running across multiple platforms & having it carry over.

This doesn't please Apple, since it jeopardizes their hardware incentive & potentially can break down the fences they build as a selling point, in their target shift from relying on established fans and geeks, to relying on everyday consumer electronics buyers.

Web apps were always the future, but Apple crushed that notion & offered the App store. Developers love it's potential, but hate it's support. I've seen more developer blogs stating 'this' than anything else.

This is how I see it. I don't feel like hunting down sources to back up my opinion to please the bearer of a close minded argument.

[jerry coeurl]

Maybe this will finally push Apple into releasing a full gamepad. Imagine a joystick that let you dock the iPhone in the middle and then mash out with a full arcade stick, that would rock and could totally be done by soldering to the gamepad PCB

Heh, and then you could sit in a corner, spazzing out with your joystick and totally looking like a creeper to any girl who happened to chance by.

[17daysolderthannes]

Developers 'can' see piracy results directly, as the application needs only to phone-home it's usage statistics.

As far as intent to purchase, that's irrelevant to the fact that the user already having the game pirated, legitimately shrinks the size of those who do not have it & could potentially buy it. That dictates the 'lost' sale to the developer.



If said apps are even allowed to engage in such. I'm pretty sure Apple requires all apps to ask permission to transmit any usage data and those articles mention it in the form of high score boards. Personally, I usually disable the high score feature because I know some 12 year old in Wisconsin has been playing it 24/7 since the app was released and there's no way I'll even make the top 100 and most high score boards take way longer to load than they should, so it's just not worth it.

I don't feel like arguing the "would they or wouldn't they" buy if the piracy potential wasn't there, but I'm sure we can both agree that the iPhone is no more susceptible to piracy than any of its competitors in the gaming world. I know Melf is going to say "ANECDOTE! ANECDOTE!" but I can't give piracy numbers for DS and PSP because there's absolutely no way to track it, all I can give is what I see and I see alot of people clamoring for R4 cards and custom firmware PSPs. I mean, shit, people at GameStop hear it so much that they actually get annoyed if you ask for a 1000 or 2000 because they know you just want to put custom firmware on it. Remember that girl I mentioned on here that was manager at GameStop? She said people constantly ask for 1000s and 2000s by name for that reason. Some pawn shops even charge more for them because they know people want them for custom firmware. I've even heard of people being asked to leave the store when the employees suspect they are trying to get it for custom firmware.

At the very least, there's more potential to stop piracy on the iPhone than the DS or PSP because the games are regularly updated and available for download via the appstore rather than being pressed to UMD or released on a memory card. If you pirate, you have to install the updates manually if you can even get them. I don't see how anyone could think pirating iPhone games is worthwhile, it's just too much hassle.

No matter how you slice it, most developers are still developing for the iPhone, just like major studios still make movies and major record labels still record albums when the analog loophole exists. A couple whiny developers of crappy games isn't going to stop people like Gameloft from developing when they are raking in millions in spite of the "oh so terrible" piracy.


Heh, and then you could sit in a corner, spazzing out with your joystick and totally looking like a creeper to any girl who happened to chance by.

oh yeah, let me haul my giant arcade stick around!

I would use the joystick in the comfort of my own home, obviously.

[jerry coeurl]

oh yeah, let me haul my giant arcade stick around!

I would use the joystick in the comfort of my own home, obviously.

what's even the point of playing on an iphone then. a PC with a decent MAME set up would make way more sense.

[Knuckle Duster]

what's even the point of playing on an iphone then. a PC with a decent MAME set up would make way more sense.

Because that would be inconvenient. ;)

[17daysolderthannes]

what's even the point of playing on an iphone then. a PC with a decent MAME set up would make way more sense.

I would use it like I use my PSP while I watch TV, much easier than trying to keep up with a computer and joystick all in my lap.

It was just an idea anyway, something neat to do with an iPhone, jeez.

[KnightWarrior]

17days is just a fanboy that talks down to everything like the Wii

[Rusty Venture]

http://i674.photobucket.com/albums/vv103/Push_Upstairs_photo/Drama.jpg

[mick_aka]

"You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Rusty Venture again."

Damn you!!!!!!!

[17daysolderthannes]

I trust that Capcom wouldn't let it come out if the touch controls sucked. We'll see though.

Sonic wonders too....

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s190/specv4life/buttons015qa.jpg

[old man]

The iPhone won't ever become a big gaming alternative, because Apple isn't really interested in games. It's just another selling point for their product. To them they sell an awesome phone that can play some neat games, not a neat phone that can play some awesome games. They have no interest in providing the kind of support game developers need, and game developers aren't going to do their job for them when there are greener pastures out there. Ten years ago devs were begging Apple for a gaming API to go with OSX, if apple had given them one they would be stomping MS in the mud by now. As it is, they're still second fiddle, with Linux steadily gaining steam.

[17daysolderthannes]

The iPhone won't ever become a big gaming alternative, because Apple isn't really interested in games. It's just another selling point for their product. To them they sell an awesome phone that can play some neat games, not a neat phone that can play some awesome games. They have no interest in providing the kind of support game developers need, and game developers aren't going to do their job for them when there are greener pastures out there. Ten years ago devs were begging Apple for a gaming API to go with OSX, if apple had given them one they would be stomping MS in the mud by now. As it is, they're still second fiddle, with Linux steadily gaining steam.

I don't think I agree with this. Developers go where the market is. The iPhone is gaining a VERY large share of the smartphone market, and futhermore it's a market share of motivated people that aren't just getting the smartphone because it was on special that week and they needed e-mail support. Most iPhone owners I know are absolutely obsessed with their device and have a good 3 pages of apps at the minimum. Whether or not Apple cares about games on the iPhone isn't going to stop truckloads of people from developing for it (I mean, does my source mean anything? it's already surpassed PSP and DS). Hell, look at Capcom, SF IV is coming out on the iPhone for crying out loud and it didn't even get a release on the Wii. Gaming on Mac OS X isn't attractive because it doesn't have as many users as Windows and most "sUpAR 1337 GAmRz" want to build custom computers made of ridiculously high end components specifically for games, something that you can't really do with Apple because Apple tends to not release cutting edge hardware until they update the OS to support it fully, even though a specific game might be able to utilize it.

Remember, also, I'm not claiming the iPhone is going to be the new PS3. I don't think you're going to see Final Fantasy (X and newer)-esque 60 hour RPGs and 20 hour action games on it (excluding Vay and other retro ports). However, for pick up and play arcade action, there's alot of good stuff out there. The most important part of the iPhone, to me anyway, is that the download-only structure without obscene markup all over the place allows for flash-type games to optimized on the platform and sold at a minimal price.

IMO, portable systems shouldn't mimic consoles, they should offer a shorter, simpler, quick fun variant of the longer, more involved console experience.

[Knuckle Duster]

I don't think I agree with this. Developers go where the market is. The iPhone is gaining a VERY large share of the smartphone market, and futhermore it's a market share of motivated people that aren't just getting the smartphone because it was on special that week and they needed e-mail support. Most iPhone owners I know are absolutely obsessed with their device and have a good 3 pages of apps at the minimum. Whether or not Apple cares about games on the iPhone isn't going to stop truckloads of people from developing for it (I mean, does my source mean anything? it's already surpassed PSP and DS). Hell, look at Capcom, SF IV is coming out on the iPhone for crying out loud and it didn't even get a release on the Wii. Gaming on Mac OS X isn't attractive because it doesn't have as many users as Windows and most "sUpAR 1337 GAmRz" want to build custom computers made of ridiculously high end components specifically for games, something that you can't really do with Apple because Apple tends to not release cutting edge hardware until they update the OS to support it fully, even though a specific game might be able to utilize it.

Citation needed. (Propaganda-Free Preferred)