opinion of virtual console?

[Jared]

Just curious what everyones opinion is. Do you like downloadable retro games or do you prefer the original carts for collectors sake. Personally I love the Virtual Console.

[17daysolderthannes]

rip. off.

Buy the real games, play the ROMs, that's my take.

PC/Mac emulators offer way more flexibility and accuracy and best of all don't cost highway robbery prices. At least compilations for PS2, etc. give you a good bang for your buck (usually costing anywhere from a few cents to $1 per game) and you get a nice physical product to accompany it. A modded XBOX or a computer with a TV out is a much better solution than the Wii VC.

[Guntz]

My VC motto is, "If I have the original system, I'll buy it on that. If only because the original hardware will ALWAYS have more titles available than the VC, despite obvious cost differences".

With that said, I've never bought a VC game before, but I've purchased a few WiiWare titles. I have Streets of Rage 3 and Donkey Kong Country from the previous owner. He barely used the Wii anyway.

[sketch]

I tried a few VC games and they just didn't "feel" right. Computer emu is definitely better in that regard.

[QuickSciFi]

I've vouched to only buy Wii Ware titles, and those must be absolutely awesome. So far, Contra and Castlevania Rebirths. That's about it.

...I also plan to buy Sonic 4 Ep1, but I'm very hopefull still that they may release these games as a compilation further down the line. That would be great.

[Jared]

I will admit there are a couple games I've downloaded on the VC that I like so much that Im considering buying the cartridge version. Mainly Streets of Rage 2.

[Waterfaller]

I think the VC service is the greatest invention since the Xbox *is biased*
I only have 2 titles right now, Super Mario 64 and Wonder Boy in Monster World, but that number WILL be going up. I have a fresh 8GB SDHC card for things I plan on buying. I just wish there was a bit more FLOW of titles, you know?

[JRedmond3]

Nintendo are some greedy mofos.

Anyway, I'm definitely against downloads and nonphysical media in general. I know that's where things are headed but I just don't like it. If I buy something I want to be able to hold it and look at it. I mean stuff like Steam is okay where you can have an account and you'll have those games "forever" but I'd prefer a real copy of the game.

[OldSchool]

I prefer owning the real hardware. I prefer paying $1-20 for a real Cartridge than $5-15 for a digital copy.

I just bought a Wii a week ago and have ZERO plans of ever using the Virtual Console feature. I have a NES/SNES/Genesis for a reason.


penny
penny

[ThugsRook]

KEGA > VC

[Knuckle Duster]

It's a convenient way for people to grab old games.

The argument supporting 'Getting a PC emulator/Roms' misses the point entirely. Pirating games is pirating games. As great as a modded Xbox is as an alternative, you could mod the Wii itself more easily. PC's aren't practical enough, Wii's are usually already in a home's entertainment center.

Ideally one would have a quiet PC hooked up to an HDTV with wireless KB/Mouse/controller setup, but that's not the demographic the Wii is sold to.


I've vouched to only buy Wii Ware titles, and those must be absolutely awesome. So far, Contra and Castlevania Rebirths. That's about it.

...I also plan to buy Sonic 4 Ep1, but I'm very hopefull still that they may release these games as a compilation further down the line. That would be great.

I agreed with that myself, but then Blaster Master, Megaman, Final Fantasy IV:TAY happened.

And then Ys Book I&II, Lords of Thunder, Castlevania Rondo of Blood happened.

And then...Damn :(

[Christuserloeser]

I think it's the best thing ever, and I don't even own a Wii myself.

In a true retro spirit, the worst thing about the Virtual Console is the godawful job that Sega of Europe and Sega of America do when publishing these games - with their original back cover texts! All other games by Nintendo & co. get nice introductions that describe what the games are about and the circumstances under which they were released. The Sega games however have the original brain dead back cover text from the 90s which in most cases had as much to do with the games themselves as did the awful covers that SOA and SOE slapped onto the games: Nothing.

Plus Sega of Europe managed to faithfully reproduce even the most idiotic localization terrors of the golden days... - Which means that while TG-16 is 60Hz, NES games have the music adjusted to 50Hz, and SNES games are adjusted to 50Hz in both gameplay and music only Sega's games are 50Hz without any speed adjustment to music and gameplay nor screen size which provides you with huge PAL borders for the classic 90s widescreen experience with the original super deformed characters!

But they didn't stop there: We also get the original 199x translations of SOA's back cover texts in all it's broken glory. :(

THAT is the TRUE retro spirit. Better not forget to cut the wire for the right speaker of your Wii RF cable for real mono sound.

[Knuckle Duster]

I think it's the best thing ever, and I don't even own a Wii myself.

In a true retro spirit, the worst thing about the Virtual Console is the godawful job that Sega of Europe and Sega of America do when publishing these games - with their original back cover texts! All other games by Nintendo & co. get nice introductions that describe what the games' are about and the circumstances under which they were released. The Sega games however have the original brain dead back cover text from the 90s which in most cases had as much to do with the games themselves as did the awful covers that SOA and SOE slapped onto the games: Nothing.

Plus Sega of Europe managed to faithfully reproduce even the most idiotic localization terrors of the golden days... - Which means that while TG-16 is 60Hz, NES games have the music adjusted to 50Hz, and SNES games are adjusted to 50Hz in both gameplay and music only Sega's games are 50Hz without any speed adjustment to music and gameplay nor screen size which provides you with huge PAL borders for the classic 90s widescreen experience with the original super deformed characters you remember.

But they didn't stop there: We also get the original 199x translations of SOA's back cover texts in all it's broken glory. :(

THAT is the TRUE retro spirit. Better not forget to cut the wire for the right speaker of your Wii RF cable for real mono sound.

Hey, at least Wonder Boy III: Dragons Trap on SMS has the FM sound option in the emulator. ;)

[Christuserloeser]

We should thank M2 for that: http://www.mtwo.co.jp/

....but yeah, great that it did make the jump. I definitely did not expect that to happen. :)

[chrisbid]

like most people, i prefer original games on original hardware

but rare and import-only games at affordable prices?

yes please!



castlevania x, musha, super mario bros 2j, alien soldier, gley lancer, pulseman, sin and punishment, super fantasy zone

all for ten dollars or less?

how can anybody be against that?

[GohanX]

If I have the original system, I'll buy the original carts unless it is something expensive or rare. I really do like the emulation for most games, on a SDTV with component it plays almost perfectly.

My Wii is hacked though... if I own the cart I will install a wad if I want the game on the Wii. If I don't own the game I'll still buy it (Like Dracula X.)

[zetastrike]

The only games I'd ever buy on the VC are ones that never got released here and/or are for systems I don't own, like Rondo of Blood, Gradius 2, and Alien Soldier.

[Puffy2k316]

It's cool if I don't own the original system but I'd like to play one of the games. I have about half a dozen games on there. It's pretty convenient.

[OldSchool]

like most people, i prefer original games on original hardware

but rare and import-only games at affordable prices?

yes please!



castlevania x, musha, super mario bros 2j, alien soldier, gley lancer, pulseman, sin and punishment, super fantasy zone

all for ten dollars or less?

how can anybody be against that?

That's actually a really, really good point and I can't fathom an argument against it. ;)


I decided that I'd simply have to live without those. Musha would be cool, but I've got enough Shooters... the Castlevania game from what I read isn't one of the best in the series, and I've got just about all of the rest (or will by the time I get my N64), so I'm cool not having it.

The only expensive one I want right now is Megaman X Collection for PS2, but I'd rather not pay $60 for it.. that's a giant pantload. I might end up paying that price though, lol... if I don't see it anywhere else for cheaper in the next couple months. It's 8 games so...

The Megaman X 2 and 3 games for SNES are retardedly priced considering the above Compilation comes with all 3 and 4 other Megaman games.


Solid point though:!:

[kool kitty89]

In a true retro spirit, the worst thing about the Virtual Console is the godawful job that Sega of Europe and Sega of America do when publishing these games - with their original back cover texts! All other games by Nintendo & co. get nice introductions that describe what the games are about and the circumstances under which they were released. The Sega games however have the original brain dead back cover text from the 90s which in most cases had as much to do with the games themselves as did the awful covers that SOA and SOE slapped onto the games: Nothing.

That's a really borad statement... There were soem poor translations and we've been throught whole box art issue, but there are tons of exceptions to that... and there were some cases (especially for SMS games and some EU MD releases) where the box art was the JP version or a slight modification thereof.


My problems with VC: preces aren't what they should be IMO... especially for some games and considering the emulation quality and lack of added features in soem cases. Playing NES games in component or S-Video with the original resolution is nice though, no nasty dot crawl, but original 240p on SDTVs.

My brother buys them mainly beacuse we haven't yet gotten the games for NES... or soem befor I got them for Genesis (sonic 3), and because he hasn't had a working PC to emulate on for the last year or so. (the latter is probably the main reason as he was playing plenty of ROMs and rom hacks, and several games on Fusion -last being Chaotix, after I introduced him to that)
My dad was supposed to rebuild his PC, but poor grades led to lack of insentive among other things. (I think i tmainly needs a re-install of XP)

[Christuserloeser]

I stand by my comment. I always blush when reading this stuff! I am thinking of mostly the European back cover text though... - How is it possible that I am ashamed for the incompetence of others ?

The box art stuff is so terrible it isn't even funny. I could turn practically all the covers of the Japanese MD library into posters and they'd look AMAZING, when many of the EU/US covers A) look okay at best, and/or B) don't represent the games they were used for.

I agree that there are exceptions though where they used the Japanese artwork with little but decent changes (Sonic 1 PAL, Revenge of Shinobi, Castle of Illusion), or where the EU/US covers look about as good as the Japanese originals (Quackshot, World of Illusion).


EDIT - Just browse Guardiana's database for a while and you'll see what I mean: http://www.guardiana.net/

EDIT #2 -
I think i tmainly needs a re-install of XP
A reinstall of XP is among the simpler tasks in fixing a computer. I'd try it asap so the poor guy got a working computer again. Not having a computer surely won't help with getting better grades.

[Nick16]

I figure it's a good way to play Rondo of Blood and Musha.

[Knuckle Duster]

I decided that I'd simply have to live without those. Musha would be cool, but I've got enough Shooters... the Castlevania game from what I read isn't one of the best in the series, and I've got just about all of the rest (or will by the time I get my N64), so I'm cool not having it.

You've read wrong. It's the best one of the series.

It's not 'Castlevania Dracula X' for SNES, it's Castlevania Dracula X Rondo of Blood for the PCE.

The PCEngine/TG16 version is excellent. Even if it's not in english, it's actually 'fun' to play.

The SNES version took the sprite & music ideas, threw it into a poorly designed typical Castlevania style linear platformer. It looked and sounded alright, but it was crap compared to the source material.

[kool kitty89]

I stand by my comment. I always blush when reading this stuff! I am thinking of mostly the European back cover text though... - How is it possible that I am ashamed for the incompetence of others ?

I haven't read many of the manuals, so I cant really comment there. (Alien Storm is the only non-sonic boxed game that's not a US/EU developed release)


The box art stuff is so terrible it isn't even funny. I could turn practically all the covers of the Japanese MD library into posters and they'd look AMAZING, when many of the EU/US covers A) look okay at best, and/or B) don't represent the games they were used for.
I think it's a matter of taste, but there was tons of stuff that could be taken either way, or at least looked OK on the western releases. (NES/SNES stuff has this too -especially NES)
I'll admit there's a lot of cheezy box art out there, but of that not THAT much is inaccurate in terms of depicting gameplay, and in some cases, it does a better job of that than the JP covers, though the latter may still look nicer and cooler.
The Sonic 1 cover of JP vs US for example.
Now, I'm not sure what the EU sonic MD cover looked like, but the SMS Sonic 1 cover is one of my favorites: simple and clean with a good adaptation of the classic JP box art. (which ended up a lot closer to the US styled Sonic than early incarnations it seems)



EDIT - Just browse Guardiana's database for a while and you'll see what I mean: http://www.guardiana.net/
We had that whole thread comparing some hundred or so covers already too. ("box art that americans just f***ed up" iirc)


EDIT #2 -
A reinstall of XP is among the simpler tasks in fixing a computer. I'd try it asap so the poor guy got a working computer again. Not having a computer surely won't help with getting better grades.

Well, I'm not exactly sure where it's at: the plan was to take the best portions of my old PC and his and combine them (both used similar PCI+AGP Socket A motherboards using DDR).
And no, having a computer wouldn't really help with school: he has access to the family computer whenever he needs it for studying and limited access for entertainment (which he tends to overuse as it is). He's got a semi-addiction to youtube stuff in addition to games. (he's got 5 or so different letsplayers he's constantly trying to watch -and a few others he watches occasionally)
In fact, my dad had to hide my laptop today as my 15-year-old brother was using it without permission while I was at school. (youtube I assume)

But enough on that. ;)

[Zoltor]

I think it's the best thing ever, and I don't even own a Wii myself.

In a true retro spirit, the worst thing about the Virtual Console is the godawful job that Sega of Europe and Sega of America do when publishing these games - with their original back cover texts! All other games by Nintendo & co. get nice introductions that describe what the games are about and the circumstances under which they were released. The Sega games however have the original brain dead back cover text from the 90s which in most cases had as much to do with the games themselves as did the awful covers that SOA and SOE slapped onto the games: Nothing.

Plus Sega of Europe managed to faithfully reproduce even the most idiotic localization terrors of the golden days... - Which means that while TG-16 is 60Hz, NES games have the music adjusted to 50Hz, and SNES games are adjusted to 50Hz in both gameplay and music only Sega's games are 50Hz without any speed adjustment to music and gameplay nor screen size which provides you with huge PAL borders for the classic 90s widescreen experience with the original super deformed characters!

But they didn't stop there: We also get the original 199x translations of SOA's back cover texts in all it's broken glory. :(

THAT is the TRUE retro spirit. Better not forget to cut the wire for the right speaker of your Wii RF cable for real mono sound.

Yea, aside from the Nintendo channel(for those who don't know, It's the holy grail of game advertisement, and all the games are listed in a single site. If you are wondering what will be coming out within a yea, if It's on any nintendo system or owned service, odds are it will be listed, usually with trailers, interviews or gameplay videos as well), the VC is really the greatest thing ever.

Don't get me wrong, I prefer the physical copy like most people, however the VC will help show these new school junkies, what good games really are (Luckily for the most part, the better Genesis games were pretty much submitted right away, but It's sad that only like one great a year is added for the SNES or NES, when there are so many "Greats", It's not funny. A bunch of companies are submiting just ok-good games, instead of their better stuff), which can only help the game industry as a whole.

Also the mere existance of the VC, combined with the wiiware service is helping to boost the retro game movement to hights, that would've taken years more to get to.

[NavesRegge]

Like a few people are saying here, if I have the console I'll just get the original game. That is, unless, the game is extremely rare and would be a huge money saver if I got it off the Virtual Console. I've never bought anything from it, so I can't say anything from experience.

[kool kitty89]

I will say I like WiiWare, though I'm a little wary of what might happen eventually if/when the flash memory wears out. (though that applies to the entire system, not just WiiWare -other than WiiWare games not running on a non-hacked console that hasn't downloaded them at some point already)

[j_factor]

I dislike Wiiware more than the VC, because generally speaking, a Wiiware release eliminates the possibility of a physical release, whereas VC releases are all games that have already had physical releases (so you still have that option if you want it).

I mainly use the VC for N64 games, because I don't have an N64 (not that many games I'm interested in), and it's nice to play them with de-blurred graphics and a non-shitty controller. However, the selection of available N64 games is pretty lacking, so I only have a few.

[Jared]

I like the VC because it saves shelf space. It's convienent, you buy a game you get to play it right away. Unlike purchasing a game from ebay then have to wait a week or so for it to arrive in the mail. I also think the save feature. Stop in the middle of a game and restart where you left off. Much better than an annoying password.

[kool kitty89]

I dislike Wiiware more than the VC, because generally speaking, a Wiiware release eliminates the possibility of a physical release, whereas VC releases are all games that have already had physical releases (so you still have that option if you want it).

I mainly use the VC for N64 games, because I don't have an N64 (not that many games I'm interested in), and it's nice to play them with de-blurred graphics and a non-shitty controller. However, the selection of available N64 games is pretty lacking, so I only have a few.

Yeah, but otherwise they'd just be downloadable PC games... It's a bit like shareware in the way they have episodic installments too. Granted, most share ware also has physical releases in the full form. (old share ware at least)

I mean it's no different for PSN or XBLA (except the latter isn't free).

A lot of these games wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the delivery method, or at least wouldn't exist on all the platforms they do.

[j_factor]

Yeah, but otherwise they'd just be downloadable PC games... It's a bit like shareware in the way they have episodic installments too. Granted, most share ware also has physical releases in the full form. (old share ware at least)

I mean it's no different for PSN or XBLA (except the latter isn't free).

A lot of these games wouldn't exist if it wasn't for the delivery method, or at least wouldn't exist on all the platforms they do.

Only a few of these games are actually any good, though.

And, I dunno, I keep hearing that argument, but I don't really buy it. I mean, all manner of shit has managed to find physical release. If Mad Dog McCree can get a Wii disc release (not to mention infamous nonsense like Ninjabread Man), then surely just about anything can. Episodic installments might be an exception, but they can and should (and occasionally do) release them in compiled form on disc.

PSX had a lot of budget releases, and some of them were quite good. The download services seem to have really eaten away at (physically released) budget games, which I think is a shame. I have World of Goo on disc for PC; it would've been nice if they'd released it for Wii. Even though it's cheaper on Wiiware, I prefer a $20 disc to a $10 download. And I think it would exist on disc for Wii if not for Wiiware. PSN and XBLA are arguably worse. When, for example, was the last time a puzzle game was released on disc for PS3 or 360? Last gen there were no qualms with full retail releases of puzzle games on consoles (sometimes with a lower price though). Now, it's not happening (outside of a few on Wii), and it's trending further in that direction. I see this is as sneaky backdoor transitioning to a download-only model by gradually chipping away at what will be released at retail. Of course, if you're in favor of digital distribution, you may not see the problem with that.

[OldSchool]

Only a few of these games are actually any good, though.

And, I dunno, I keep hearing that argument, but I don't really buy it. I mean, all manner of shit has managed to find physical release. If Mad Dog McCree can get a Wii disc release (not to mention infamous nonsense like Ninjabread Man), then surely just about anything can. Episodic installments might be an exception, but they can and should (and occasionally do) release them in compiled form on disc.

PSX had a lot of budget releases, and some of them were quite good. The download services seem to have really eaten away at (physically released) budget games, which I think is a shame. I have World of Goo on disc for PC; it would've been nice if they'd released it for Wii. Even though it's cheaper on Wiiware, I prefer a $20 disc to a $10 download. And I think it would exist on disc for Wii if not for Wiiware. PSN and XBLA are arguably worse. When, for example, was the last time a puzzle game was released on disc for PS3 or 360? Last gen there were no qualms with full retail releases of puzzle games on consoles (sometimes with a lower price though). Now, it's not happening (outside of a few on Wii), and it's trending further in that direction. I see this is as sneaky backdoor transitioning to a download-only model by gradually chipping away at what will be released at retail. Of course, if you're in favor of digital distribution, you may not see the problem with that.

I'm going to second all of that. I have a problem with DLC if it gets in the way of physical distribution of games in any way.

I don't look at DLC as a convenience in the slightest: I look at it as a way for Devs and Pubs to rent software to me all the while making it impossible for me to own the software on a medium of my choice. Coupled with very restrictive User License Agreements, it's a lose lose imo.


I will say I like WiiWare, though I'm a little wary of what might happen eventually if/when the flash memory wears out. (though that applies to the entire system, not just WiiWare -other than WiiWare games not running on a non-hacked console that hasn't downloaded them at some point already)

No kidding right. Well, this is part of the DLC 'plan'... to sell you a product that you don't own and according to these new and insane User License Agreements, aren't allowed to make backup copies of without being in violation of the Agreement.


I like the VC because it saves shelf space. It's convienent, you buy a game you get to play it right away. Unlike purchasing a game from ebay then have to wait a week or so for it to arrive in the mail. I also think the save feature. Stop in the middle of a game and restart where you left off. Much better than an annoying password.

"shelf space" ? Honestly... are you going to buy 1000+ Games because I know what that looks like and it can fit in a single room.

Ebay/Online buying isn't the only way, there's first level retail as well... and nothing beats going to a store, shopping, and going home and booting it up.

Passwords don't bother me... I'd prefer a simple save honestly, but using Passwords adds a sense of nostalgia to the experience for me.


You're supporting Renting of Software when you support DLC Schemes.
:|

[Christuserloeser]

Passwords suck.

I don't see the big problem with DLC either. I prefer physical copies myself but it doesn't make sense to buy a warehouse just to store your game collection.

I don't think DLC will replace physical copies altogether. There will always be special collector's editions.

[OldSchool]

Passwords suck.

I don't see the big problem with DLC either. I prefer physical copies myself but it doesn't make sense to buy a warehouse just to store your game collection.

I don't think DLC will replace physical copies altogether. There will always be special collector's editions.

They definitely can if they're too long... otherwise, they don't bother me all that much.

Lol... how many people actually collect 'that' much?
Seriously...


And 'none' of you are commenting on the concept of renting software versus owning a license to play it and make backup copies. :mad: ;)

That alone is an enormous issue.

[SF78]

Looking 20 years forward, I'm pretty sure all your hard drives have failed or have been sold/obsolete/lost. It's also unlikely that any of your burned CD's are going to work, not that you'd have a CD- or DVD-drive to hook up. Me? I still got my Atari carts from the 70's in prefect working order. :) It's easy to forget that your download content will be gone once you switch to a newer system or when the game provider decide to close it's servers.

[ThugsRook]

passwords suck.
pressing save state on the password screen is awesome :cool:

anyways,
whatever platform you play SEGA on... is better than no platform.

[chrisbid]

They definitely can if they're too long... otherwise, they don't bother me all that much.

Lol... how many people actually collect 'that' much?
Seriously...


And 'none' of you are commenting on the concept of renting software versus owning a license to play it and make backup copies. :mad: ;)

That alone is an enormous issue.


with ea and sony starting to charge a fee for second hand software, people are now renting physical software as well

[kool kitty89]

Biggest complaint I have over digital download only games: no used games to get on the cheap!
However, that's not a bad thing from the publisher's standpoint... (several companies have even actively attempted to limit used game sales int he past iirc)

[Puffy2k316]

Biggest complaint I have over digital download only games: no used games to get on the cheap!
However, that's not a bad thing from the publisher's standpoint... (several companies have even actively attempted to limit used game sales int he past iirc)

Steam has insane sales all the time (one every weekend pretty much, and the sale the have during christmas is so outrageous that no retail store would even dream of it) but I do agree that when it comes to the 3 main consoles the prices are to constant

[OldSchool]

with ea and sony starting to charge a fee for second hand software, people are now renting physical software as well

What?

[chrisbid]

What?

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/eas-project-ten-dollar-explained

http://techie-buzz.com/gaming/sony-targets-used-games-blocks-online-play.html

they havent directly double dipped for used game sales yet, but with schemes like these, it looks like that is the eventual goal

[kool kitty89]

Wow, that sucks... Honestly, stuff like that makes me consider piracy as a slightly more viable option....

I mean some of this DRI stuff is a huge enough PITA as it is, especially with over 75% of our games being used (or reduced cost re-releases/value packs more for PC games).
One of the most frustrating cases was buying a copy of Serious Sam 2, only to find later that the activation key had been obliterated on the box... (of course, one could look though piracy instructions inline to find an alternate key to use)

If that's the way things are going, pure digital distribution is looking all the better by comparison.

[OldSchool]

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/eas-project-ten-dollar-explained

http://techie-buzz.com/gaming/sony-targets-used-games-blocks-online-play.html

they havent directly double dipped for used game sales yet, but with schemes like these, it looks like that is the eventual goal

Wow :? What's next... do we have to pay $50 for the first half of the game and then $50 for the second half months later, lol..


All they're going to do is further drive people to piracy imo.
I will NEVER give them extra money for 'an extra piece of armor/etc in an RPG game or a couple extra levels/blah' and I sure as hell will never pay to play something online, lol.

I'm almost to the point to where I've got enough games collected for life. The way Pubs operate and the way things have been priced for over a decade has led me to soley go the 2nd hand route.

I waited 'this' long to buy a PS2 and a Wii. I'll wait however long it takes for PS3 & 360 to come down to get them at $100-150/ea.... and I'll never pay more than $30 for the majority of those games.

I felt ok supporting a few games on Wii at $50 because I wanted them now and I didn't mind supporting the Mario and Zelda franchises.


These hair brained tactics being employed are only going to further drive their user base away from supporting first level retail (imo)... but only time will tell.

One thing's for sure, it isn't going to draw me in, lol.
:|

[PimpUigi]

Virtual Console is crap.

Emulators on PC >>>> Virtual Console.
Especially when you hook them up to the TV.
Especially when you have some retro controller adapters (like www.raphnet-tech.net has their Genesis to PC adapter)

Otherwise yea, console version > Wii version anyway.

[chrisbid]

time for a topic split

[InternalPrimate]

Wow, again guys? Can't we keep this the "opinion of virtual console" thread?

[InternalPrimate]

Blah blah fucking blah... we've already been down this road, Toto... do you not remember me correcting you over and over and over in the dedicated PC vs. Console thread? I have 100% compatibility with everything I've installed on my machine.



Lol... I tried to be respectful but you choose to be a fucking retard.


I'm typically someone who doesn't report posts like this, and in fact I've never reported theEdge or 17days, but I'm going to do so here. I just don't at all want another Edge here.

[Jared]

I would like to see this thread get back on topic.

[PimpUigi]

I think Virtual Console would be cooler if they put out more uncommon games that are extra rare, like MUSHA and Moonwalker for instance.
I don't know much I can say about Virtual Console that hasn't already been said.

Tie Fighter and X-Wing would be cool to put out on virtual console...they would be interesting games that could take advantage of Wii controls.

[OldSchool]

I think Virtual Console would be cooler if they put out more uncommon games that are extra rare, like MUSHA and Moonwalker for instance.

I don't know much I can say about Virtual Console that hasn't already been said.

Even though I'll never use the service, I'll second that. solid point

Also, if Nintendo wants to sell something that's non tangible, they should offer a written guarantee that the user can transfer the purchase from Console to Console in case something happens to the Console that the game is DLed to.

[chrisbid]

I think Virtual Console would be cooler if they put out more uncommon games that are extra rare, like MUSHA and Moonwalker for instance.
I don't know much I can say about Virtual Console that hasn't already been said.

Tie Fighter and X-Wing would be cool to put out on virtual console...they would be interesting games that could take advantage of Wii controls.



good news, musha is available on the virtual console for a whopping 8 dollars. and as i mentioned before, you can also pick up super fantasy zone, gley lancer, dracula x, alien soldier, gradius ii, pulseman, sin and punishment, super mario bros 2j, and other rare/import only games

[Melf]

I split off the 33 off topic posts from this thread into the "PC vs. Everything" thread. I think the person who wants to argue about how much better PCs are than the Virtual Console should make that argument in the thread that he himself started. Everyone else who wants to play Console Wars 2010 can follow him there.

Any more off topic posts will be greeted with a very on-topic week off.

[PimpUigi]

good news, musha is available on the virtual console for a whopping 8 dollars. and as i mentioned before, you can also pick up super fantasy zone, gley lancer, dracula x, alien soldier, gradius ii, pulseman, sin and punishment, super mario bros 2j, and other rare/import only games

All right then.
The Virtual Console seems to be worth it, and I hope they continue to put out rare, hard to get, and import games on it.

[kool kitty89]

I'd be rather interested in unreleased games as other than emulation (and defacto piracy -including repro carts and betas which were supposed to be returned/destroyed), download releases will probably be th eonly official release such games ever get.

The most obvious one for me is the game that started me on console emulation several years back: Star Fox 2. However, given the lack of a Star Fox release and supposed legal issues over shared rights of the software with Argonaut (and whoever holds the rights to that now defunct entity), those games don't seem likely candidates.

[17daysolderthannes]

Also, if Nintendo wants to sell something that's non tangible, they should offer a written guarantee that the user can transfer the purchase from Console to Console in case something happens to the Console that the game is DLed to.

I've been saying that since the beginning. The only reason I accept DLC on the iPhone is because A) your purchases are tied to an account and can be transferred/re-downloaded infinitely (at least for games). Also, they can be put on up to ?5? devices at once. B) everything is cheap, usually sub $10 C) I don't want to jailbreak my iPhone and hurt reliability or jeopardize my AT&T contract, thus if I want to play games, legit is the only way to go.

All other DLC I am not enthusiastic about.


I split off the 33 off topic posts from this thread into the "PC vs. Everything" thread. I think the person who wants to argue about how much better PCs are than the Virtual Console should make that argument in the thread that he himself started. Everyone else who wants to play Console Wars 2010 can follow him there.

Any more off topic posts will be greeted with a very on-topic week off.

Show me one thread that ISN'T off topic on this forum, lol.

Still, is your ban hammer threat only for this thread or every thread? Because if I can't post anything off topic in any thread...I won't be posting a whole lot...

P.S. I know this post is off topic, but I'm sure everyone is wondering the same thing, so it needs to be addressed.

P.P.S. I think comparing virtual console to PC IS on topic, though going on and on about price of PC vs consoles isn't. If the PC is genuinely better, than it should be noted.

[Guntz]

I'd be rather interested in unreleased games as other than emulation (and defacto piracy -including repro carts and betas which were supposed to be returned/destroyed), download releases will probably be th eonly official release such games ever get.

The most obvious one for me is the game that started me on console emulation several years back: Star Fox 2. However, given the lack of a Star Fox release and supposed legal issues over shared rights of the software with Argonaut (and whoever holds the rights to that now defunct entity), those games don't seem likely candidates.

I completely agree with you. That would give the VC a tremendous and highly useful purpose. More so than just making old retail released games available for purchase directly from the developer/publisher (again). Completely unreleased games would finally be able make money for the developer. At best, it would require essentially no costs. If there were licensing issues, then costs would arise but that's beside the point. Case in point with EarthBound Zero (also Star Fox 2 as you say), though my EBZ analogy isn't quite as good as it was released in Japan. However, that's the problem, it was only released in Japan. They could finally make money off it's US (and UK) release if they would just release the damn game on the VC already.

[17daysolderthannes]

I completely agree with you. That would give the VC a tremendous and highly useful purpose. More so than just making old retail released games available for purchase directly from the developer/publisher (again). Completely unreleased games would finally be able make money for the developer. At best, it would require essentially no costs. If there were licensing issues, then costs would arise but that's beside the point. Case in point with EarthBound Zero (also Star Fox 2 as you say), though my EBZ analogy isn't quite as good as it was released in Japan. However, that's the problem, it was only released in Japan. They could finally make money off it's US (and UK) release if they would just release the damn game on the VC already.

I've been saying this from the beginning. At least they have started releasing some JP games, but that's about it. Sega Channel games, previously unreleased games, etc. are what we really need on the VC.

[MrMatthews]

If the PC is genuinely better, than it should be noted.

Hey, look at that! Ha ha! Guess they didn't teach grammar in them engineerin' classes, huh?

...Ah, the high road. :)

[Guntz]

I've been saying this from the beginning. At least they have started releasing some JP games, but that's about it. Sega Channel games, previously unreleased games, etc. are what we really need on the VC.

At least there's something we can all agree on. :)

[kool kitty89]

I've been saying this from the beginning. At least they have started releasing some JP games, but that's about it. Sega Channel games, previously unreleased games, etc. are what we really need on the VC.

Yep, and that has happened with a few titles (like Alien Soldier and Pulseman), but not for nearly as many as there should.

[OldSchool]

Well son of a bitch.... looks like I might have to eat my words!!!!!!!!!

:daze:



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Madness


I do not want to buy a TG16 'just' for one game... well that & and Splatterhouse would be cool.

Has anyone bought this on the Virtual Console?
Perfect port?

[Melf]

This was also released on Xbox Live Arcade a few months ago, I believe.

[OldSchool]

This was also released on Xbox Live Arcade a few months ago, I believe.

Is that a similar service for the 360?

[Melf]

It's more like WiiWare, but every game has a demo. If you have a 360 though, you can download the Military Madness trial and see if you like it before buying it on the VC (which doesn't offer a demo). That is, if it is indeed the same game.

[kool kitty89]

Yeah, but XBL isn't free like Wii shopping or PSN... (or various PC download services)

[Jared]

Some WiiWare games do offer demos. At least they used to.

[OldSchool]

Here I go... Wii is booted up and connected.


I'm about to buy some points (which I think is fucking retarded).

Gonna grab a couple titles and see how they run.



I have a feeling (if they run right that is) that I'm going to spend a couple hundred in the end... gonna go through the 5 or so NeoGeo games I don't have on any PS2/Wii Comps, and grab some TG16 stuff.... PERHAPS Splatterhouse 2 & 3 for Genesis (I'm not paying those retarded prices for the carts).



feedback comin soon

[17daysolderthannes]

Wait, OldSchool, you're goin to buy DLC of games that can be easily emulated on the PC? you are not adding up, I'll say that much.

[Knuckle Duster]

Wait, OldSchool, you're goin to buy DLC of games that can be easily emulated on the PC? you are not adding up, I'll say that much.

What of this post of yours serves a purpose other than to scorn OldSchool and start an argument?

Seriously man. Enough already.

[PimpUigi]

I actually agree with 17days here...lol

[OldSchool]

Wait, OldSchool, you're goin to buy DLC of games that can be easily emulated on the PC? you are not adding up, I'll say that much.

That would be stealing which I don't do.
And paying insane prices for Used games doesn't work for me either.

In this case, DLC that's less than $15 vs. God knows what for the real thing = a sweet deal to me... coupled with the fact that I can back it up and use it for life as long as my Wii stays alive and Nintendo is in business.

[MrMatthews]

In this case, DLC that's less than $15 vs. God knows what for the real thing = a sweet deal to me... coupled with the fact that I can back it up and use it for life as long as my Wii stays alive and Nintendo is in business.


Hold on a sec... That's not the opinion you used to have. Have you had a change of heart?

[Jared]

@OldSchool

Unfortuneatly I don't think Splatterhouse 3 is available on VC yet. But Splatterhouse 1 & 2 are.

[OldSchool]

Hold on a sec... That's not the opinion you used to have. Have you had a change of heart?

Not true... I said that if a game was overpriced or impossible to attain, then DLC would be a good option. Go back and read my previous posts.


@OldSchool

Unfortuneatly I don't think Splatterhouse 3 is available on VC yet. But Splatterhouse 1 & 2 are.

I saw 3 up there today... pretty sure anyway.



Well guys... I got 6 games:

1. Military Madness
2. Splatterhouse

Both run great!!!!! very pleased

3. Ninja Fighter? (can't remember the name) There is a bad pop in the "go" sound effect, it's not the end of the world, but it sucks if I stand still because that sound effect sounds nonstop.
4. Ninja Commando - I am PISSED!!! There is a HORRIBLE Tearing effect at the top of the screen as I push forward through the game. I'm going to rip through Nintendo tomorrow.

I think I want my $18 back for both of those Neo Geo titles... if they're going to halfass ports, then fuck them. If I have to cancel the whole credit card purchase, I will. They're not keeping my money (definitely the $9 for Ninja Commando) for a game that has Tearing... fuck that.

These two are WiiWare (wow, there's a bunch of cool looking games in there, all proprietary from what I understand - now this, guys... is a good reason to support DLC imo.. as long as it's $10 and under and the games are fun)

5. Castlevania Remake/somethin er other (holy shit, looks amazing and feels great, I'm gonna love this one!

6. Contra Remake/somethin er other (WOW, this is totally badass!!!!!!!!)

That Master Blaster remake looks sick too...



Will report tomorrow what Nintendo says in regard to these two fookups on the Neo Geo games.

[17daysolderthannes]

What of this post of yours serves a purpose other than to scorn OldSchool and start an argument?

Seriously man. Enough already.

What? he's flip flopping like crazy. One minute he's calling everyone retarded for not buying physical copies for PC, now he's going bananas (suggesting he will spend $100+) for DLC on a console. This is like if I all of a sudden said the iPhone sucks and the Wii is the best system ever. The reason I'm annoyed is because he jumped up my ass for saying cheap DLC is OK and now he's completely condoning it. If you want to have strong convictions (like I do), that's fine, but don't completely revert to the very thing you were hell bent against 5 minutes later.

http://www.laughatliberals.com/blog/wp-images/john-kerry-heinz-57.jpg

"OldSchool, we're not so different you and I"

[PimpUigi]

I still wonder what grade Mr. OldSchool is in...

[OldSchool]

What? he's flip flopping like crazy. One minute he's calling everyone retarded for not buying physical copies for PC, now he's going bananas (suggesting he will spend $100+) for DLC on a console. This is like if I all of a sudden said the iPhone sucks and the Wii is the best system ever. The reason I'm annoyed is because he jumped up my ass for saying cheap DLC is OK and now he's completely condoning it. If you want to have strong convictions (like I do), that's fine, but don't completely revert to the very thing you were hell bent against 5 minutes later.

http://www.laughatliberals.com/blog/wp-images/john-kerry-heinz-57.jpg

"OldSchool, we're not so different you and I"

You need to pipe down and keep up with what I've said.


I think Virtual Console would be cooler if they put out more uncommon games that are extra rare, like MUSHA and Moonwalker for instance.

I don't know much I can say about Virtual Console that hasn't already been said.

Tie Fighter and X-Wing would be cool to put out on virtual console...they would be interesting games that could take advantage of Wii controls.


Even though I'll never use the service, I'll second that. solid point

Also, if Nintendo wants to sell something that's non tangible, they should offer a written guarantee that the user can transfer the purchase from Console to Console in case something happens to the Console that the game is DLed to.

I was wrong when I said I'd never use the service... but I agreed that buying uncommon and hard to find games are solid enough reasons to justify DLC purchases 'FOR CONSOLE' based games mind you. Nintendo satisfied my questions today in regard to me being able to back up my DLs and being able to recover them in the case that my Wii ever dies.


I still wonder what grade Mr. OldSchool is in...

How's that blazing $600 computer working for you... lol

[17daysolderthannes]

I'm sure at least one person already mentioned that you can back up the downloads and re-download them if your console dies, but that's still reliant on volatile memory and Nintendo's willingness to support Wii VC/WiiWare after their new system is out. Thus, I am only willing to buy "OMFG MUST HAVE!" games on WiiWare and similar services and if they are available at very low prices.

[Smii]

3. Ninja Fighter? (can't remember the name) There is a bad pop in the "go" sound effect, it's not the end of the world, but it sucks if I stand still because that sound effect sounds nonstop.
4. Ninja Commando - I am PISSED!!! There is a HORRIBLE Tearing effect at the top of the screen as I push forward through the game. I'm going to rip through Nintendo tomorrow.

I think I want my $18 back for both of those Neo Geo titles... if they're going to halfass ports, then fuck them. If I have to cancel the whole credit card purchase, I will. They're not keeping my money (definitely the $9 for Ninja Commando) for a game that has Tearing... fuck that.


They're not Neo Geo "ports", they're just emulated roms - and I'm sure you're aware that this type of thing is pretty common. Perhaps you should check out opinion of these things online before buying them? Admittedly I'm not sure how much of that is out there; I've never used the Wii VC, except once to download SMB for someone (don't have a Wii of my own) but it just makes sense.

[kool kitty89]

They're not Neo Geo "ports", they're just emulated roms - and I'm sure you're aware that this type of thing is pretty common. Perhaps you should check out opinion of these things online before buying them? Admittedly I'm not sure how much of that is out there; I've never used the Wii VC, except once to download SMB for someone (don't have a Wii of my own) but it just makes sense.

And inferior emulation to the best available for PC at that. So, if you're totally gung-ho about obtaining *some* physical copy to own it legially, find the cheapest format, but play it on the best afterwards... (and/or emulate that format)
That's technically not legal either and not feeding money into the current owners of the compyrights... (or Nintendo -etc) but... I'm leaving it at that. ;)

[17daysolderthannes]

just puttin' this out there: the 6000+ MAME ROMs torrent is great :D

If only people would learn to listen to me sometimes, crises could be averted, but no, I'm just a blabbering mental patient, that's all, my input should mean nothing.

[PimpUigi]

just puttin' this out there: the 6000+ MAME ROMs torrent is great :D

If only people would learn to listen to me sometimes, crises could be averted, but no, I'm just a blabbering mental patient, that's all, my input should mean nothing.
According to OldSchool that's "stealing" and stealing is wrong.
But I must be a blabbering mental patient as well if Mame means one is mental.

How's that blazing $600 computer working for you... lol
How cool would it be if someone else could answer this one for me??? Rep to the one who makes a comment that pleases me.

BTW Mr. OldSchool, you still haven't told me what grade you're in...:(

[17daysolderthannes]

According to OldSchool that's "stealing" and stealing is wrong.
But I must be a blabbering mental patient as well if Mame means one is mental.

Stealing like recovering treasure from a 300 year old sunken pirate ship is stealing.

[OldSchool]

They're not Neo Geo "ports", they're just emulated roms - and I'm sure you're aware that this type of thing is pretty common. Perhaps you should check out opinion of these things online before buying them? Admittedly I'm not sure how much of that is out there; I've never used the Wii VC, except once to download SMB for someone (don't have a Wii of my own) but it just makes sense.

I suppose I should have... but still... Nintendo shouldn't be selling a broken product. I'm not paying for bunk emulations.


Guys, I just don't want to rip anything off... plain and simple.

[Melf]

Yeah, but XBL isn't free like Wii shopping or PSN... (or various PC download services)

And XBL silver account is free, and you can download the trial versions of every XBLA game for free.


Stealing like recovering treasure from a 300 year old sunken pirate ship is stealing.

Yeah, if the pirates who originally owned the ship still retain the copyrights and re-release it every so often for sale, then it's the same thing. Oh wait...

Not to get into the whole moral argument about emulation AGAIN, but some people simply prefer not to steal, and that's exactly what emulating ROMS is. This is a gray area, with different opinions about what's morally correct or not. I personally think emulation is great for preservation and research, but there are people who don't support it, as many companies are re-releasing their older catalogs.

We just shouldn't pretend that emulation is something it's not.

[Christuserloeser]

The whole pirate analogy is pretty off IMHO.

Pirates stole manufactured goods which weren't of any value to the individual pirates aside of the resell value.

File sharing on the internet however is producing your own unauthorized copy which you then use for yourself.

That doesn't really change the fact that your copy is unauthorized, but it's certainly not the same as piracy.

[Phantar]

Piracy: any robbery (or other violent action) for private ends and without authorization by public authority.

That's what Encyclopedia Britannica says, and I think it's applicable for both pirates of the sea and illegal internet filesharing (except for the violent action-part).

[Christuserloeser]

I think the difference is the money part. File sharing rarely involves profit. Piracy sure did.

[MrMatthews]

I was wrong when I said I'd never use the service... but I agreed that buying uncommon and hard to find games are solid enough reasons to justify DLC purchases 'FOR CONSOLE' based games mind you. Nintendo satisfied my questions today in regard to me being able to back up my DLs and being able to recover them in the case that my Wii ever dies.


I wasn't trying to call you out on anything earlier. There's nothing wrong with changing your opinion after learning about and considering new information. And to be honest, I've watched your opinion about the Wii and the VC change quite a bit over the past month.

So did you call Nintendo to ask about DLC? I've grown increasingly concerned about DLC-recovery lately and I've been considering asking them about it myself.

[Phantar]

I think the difference is the money part. File sharing rarely involves profit. Piracy sure did.

If you look at the definition again, it says "for private ends"; it doesn't say anything about making profit.

If vikings raided a home and took all the goods, intending to use them only for themselves, they were considered pirates as well... they didn't make a profit from it, but they sure did damage.

Are "filesharing pirates" the same as vikings? Surely not in terms of looting and plundering, but in terms of acquiring for private means without intent of paying. "Piracy" does not mean "Stealing for profit", as you make it out to be.

[chrisbid]

the definition of piracy was changed to include file sharing

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piracy

3 a : the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception especially in infringement of a copyright



the impact on the industry is overstated, people that "pirate" every game/song/movie they ever consume would have never paid full price for any of their content in the first place. people that casually "pirate" games/songs/movies tend to do so as a method of trial, they end up purchasing the pieces they like.

what bugs me is how the industry now equates second hand sales with piracy. this is what happens when the industry gets the only voice in the debate. they get to define all the rules. but in the end, the industry will crash from their heavy handiness. their problems arent from the "pirates", their problems are from their lack of quality content.

[Christuserloeser]

I agree that if the industry gets to call the shots, we'll soon see second hand sales mentioned as a form of piracy in our dictionaries.



If vikings made their own copy of a home and all the goods, intending to use it only for themselves...

^ fixed that for ya ;)

[OldSchool]

I wasn't trying to call you out on anything earlier. There's nothing wrong with changing your opinion after learning about and considering new information. And to be honest, I've watched your opinion about the Wii and the VC change quite a bit over the past month.

So did you call Nintendo to ask about DLC? I've grown increasingly concerned about DLC-recovery lately and I've been considering asking them about it myself.

Yeah, I know... it was a reply to pimpuigi.


True, and yes, I definitely have, lol. I feel a lil bit like a tool. Overall, I'm still upset at some of the ways Nintendo goes about releasing their products and how they develop their games, but overall I'm very impressed with the package.

The whole WiiWare has me tripping out... I'm 'hoping' there's more quality hidden in there... these two that I bought yesterday are freaking stellar... I'm completely blown away by the simpleness and back to basics NES feel + gorgeous new looks/colors/etc. (the Castlevania and Contra games that is).

The Master Blaster game looks like it's gonna be more of the same.
I've got ZERO issues supporting proprietary quality software via DLC IF it means that more of the same quality will be released.


Yeah, I called them up and asked a million questions, lol. THey told me that in the event that my Wii fails/locks up/dies/etc (and if I didn't have anything backed up), I would have to send my Wii back for repair OR I would need to have them transfer my existing 'Game Account' from the old Wii Serial # to whatever new Wii Serial # I got from buying a new Wii.

If it's past the Warranty, then I'm 'assuming' the repair isn't going to be free.
It's probably a stock $50-60sih to repair the console to 'like new' condition I'm guessing.

I hope mine never gets hurt, lol... and the way I'm super anal about putting my Consoles up and having them covered/etc when I'm not using them, I don't have anything to worry about. :o

[Knuckle Duster]

just puttin' this out there: the 6000+ MAME ROMs torrent is great :D

If only people would learn to listen to me sometimes, crises could be averted, but no, I'm just a blabbering mental patient, that's all, my input should mean nothing.

People stopped listening to you when you began repeating the same ignorant, whining with every discussion.

"just puttin' this out there" you say, and again throw 'Pirated Emulation' onto the table again. I don't think anybody here "doesn't know" your stance on the virtual console because 'people listened to you the first time.' You are blabbering, and your 'input' does mean nothing, at least no more than anybody else. When you finally realize this fundamental detail, then maybe people would take you more seriously.

A second point to be made for your benefit:
Most people already know about emulation, you are not impressing anybody but yourself by acting the part of a pretentious know-it-all pirate in the face of legitimate discussion about a game service. If you 'feel the need to personally educate the masses', do what TheEdge did and start a topic about it, keep it contained. As colorful as a topic can become when you participate, in the end you're still an abrasive cancer to discussion.


I agree that if the industry gets to call the shots, we'll soon see second hand sales mentioned as a form of piracy in our dictionaries.

Canadian judgement has always passed with fair use as a priority but eventually the laws will be mutated by selective interests.

Fuckin' Copyright Tyranny. :mad:

[OldSchool]

http://www.nintendo.com/wii/virtualconsole/games/detail/eSSUvUBKo_1gYcC04m7O5ieZt0GeWT8T

OMfG, lol... look at that 'Tear', guys. Nintendos' own video shows the same shit I'm seeing on my TV.



I'm about to call them and hang them.
$9 a Sprite based non 3d game with Tearing... lol... they're out of their bloody minds

[Knuckle Duster]

http://www.nintendo.com/wii/virtualconsole/games/detail/eSSUvUBKo_1gYcC04m7O5ieZt0GeWT8T

OMfG, lol... look at that 'Tear', guys. Nintendos' own video shows the same shit I'm seeing on my TV.



I'm about to call them and hang them.
$9 a Sprite based non 3d game with Tearing... lol... they're out of their bloody minds

You think tearing was uncommon in old consoles?
The NES games still have slowdown on the wii. The emulation is accurate to the hardware. There's no filtering.

[Christuserloeser]

What does "tearing" mean ? I can't see anything wrong with Ninja Commando...

[OldSchool]

You think tearing was uncommon in old consoles?

The NES games still have slowdown on the wii. The emulation is accurate to the hardware. There's no filtering.

Tearing doesn't exist on non 3D games. Do you know what Tearing is?
Has nothing to do with Slowdown.


Really? Wonder why none of the Youtube Neo Geo vids have this horrible Tearing effect in their videos.

I'm on the phone with Nintendo atm... not sure how this is going to end but I'm remaining firm in my stance that I'm not paying for a broken product.


What does "tearing" mean ? I can't see anything wrong with Ninja Commando...

This isn't exactly the same kind of tearing that would be exhibited in a 3D game with No working V-Sync... but the effect I'm seeing is a horizontal squiggly looking artifact that goes from one side of the screen to the other.

It occurs at about 3/4 of the screen from the bottom.
It's plainly visible in Nintendos own video. Right when the game starts, look at the Black and Yellow ground textures and you'll see it.

[Knuckle Duster]

What does "tearing" mean ? I can't see anything wrong with Ninja Commando...

I assume he's raging about how the sprite's tear apart when they scroll vertically. It's not really a big deal.

Notice in the video as soon as gameplay starts, the Black & Yellow wall (or whatever that is) on the left side.


Tearing doesn't exist on non 3D games. Do you know what Tearing is?
Has nothing to do with Slowdown.


Really? Wonder why none of the Youtube Neo Geo vids have this horrible Tearing effect in their videos.

I'm on the phone with Nintendo atm... not sure how this is going to end but I'm remaining firm in my stance that I'm not paying for a broken product.

That was my point, it's not 'Broken' it's likely the same as it was on the original hardware. That's also what I meant by the slowdown being intact.

[OldSchool]

I assume he's raging about how the sprite's tear apart when they scroll vertically. It's not really a big deal.

Notice in the video as soon as gameplay starts, the Black & Yellow wall (or whatever that is) on the left side.


That was my point, it's not 'Broken' it's likely the same as it was on the original hardware. That's also what I meant by the slowdown being intact.

It's not:!: :?: So I should be cool with graphical anomolies as long as you're ok with them? "not a big deal"... are you serious? It looks HORRIBLE. Every step I move my character forward, the screen tears and it looks ridiculous.


For the 2nd time, the original hardware does NOT display this artifact!


WiQmQhA-OrM&feature=related


lol

[OldSchool]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-gL5KjF02k

Well fuckin A... I don't see the artifact in this guys video.
I wonder wth is causing it on my Interlaced 'old' Analog tv then.


I just got done reading how the Neo Geo Emulations on VC don't work on Progressive Scan tvs (unless they've got the right resolution to choose from on their tv) and that people have to use the normal Composite cables to play them.

I'm using the normal Composite cables on an Interlaced tv... what in the world. :?



bunch of buttsex this is

[MrMatthews]

Oh, Nintendo's CSR is going to hate you...

I think I finally pinpointed your problem. You're just high-maintenance, plain and simple. :D When you go out to eat with your GF, how critical of the waiter/waitress are you when calculating the tip?

[Christuserloeser]

Virtual Console is only a service platform. Whoever offers content is responsible for emulation and additional features - e.g. Sega of Japan hired M2 for their Mega Drive and Master System games: http://www.mtwo.co.jp/

Presentation, promo text, and everything else is then handled by the local Sega divisions (with the usual incompetence I might add)

[OldSchool]

Oh, Nintendo's CSR is going to hate you...

I think I finally pinpointed your problem. You're just high-maintenance, plain and simple. :D When you go out to eat with your GF, how critical of the waiter/waitress are you when calculating the tip?

;) I'm a big tipper and am very lenient depending on the situation.


Virtual Console is only a service platform. Whoever offers content is responsible for emulation and additional features - e.g. Sega of Japan hired M2 for their Mega Drive and Master System games: http://www.mtwo.co.jp/

Presentation, promo text, and everything else is then handled by the local Sega divisions (with the usual incompetence I might add)

Who's the Publisher in this case? Nintendo right? They're the ones providing the game to the public 'via the VC'. 9/10, it's the Pub who accepts responsibility for bugs/etc in regard to PC Gaming.


I wouldn't imagine it's any different in the Console world... right?

[Christuserloeser]

What I meant is that SNK Playmore is the publisher in case of Ninja Commando.

[OldSchool]

What I meant is that SNK Playmore is the publisher in case of Ninja Commando.

They did the Port for VC?

[17daysolderthannes]

So did you call Nintendo to ask about DLC? I've grown increasingly concerned about DLC-recovery lately and I've been considering asking them about it myself.

This has been my concern from the get-go and everyone has pretty much said "lol, your dumb". Until they ensure permanent entitlement to the DLC, I'll only support must-haves that aren't available on discs.


the definition of piracy was changed to include file sharing

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/piracy

3 a : the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception especially in infringement of a copyright

the impact on the industry is overstated, people that "pirate" every game/song/movie they ever consume would have never paid full price for any of their content in the first place. people that casually "pirate" games/songs/movies tend to do so as a method of trial, they end up purchasing the pieces they like.

what bugs me is how the industry now equates second hand sales with piracy. this is what happens when the industry gets the only voice in the debate. they get to define all the rules. but in the end, the industry will crash from their heavy handiness. their problems arent from the "pirates", their problems are from their lack of quality content.

This is spot on.

#1 people that get on torrents and download 6,000 movies wouldn't buy all of those if they had to pay full price for each one. In fact, they may not buy any at all. I never bought music before Napster and I never bought music after Napster. The only time I really listen to music is in my car and if I couldn't get the music free, I'd just deal with the shitty radio or listen to nothing at all (which I used to do a good bit before I got my iPhone). Also, in the case of retro roms, it's mostly about education that can ultimately lead to sales via free advertisement. If I tell my friends about a bunch of cool games and they don't want to go through the trouble of configuring PC emulation, they may go buy it for the Wii VC. Hell, I've pirated plenty, yet I still own 650+ physical games and the only reason that hasn't been increasing is because I soon won't have the space for them and they'll have to go into storage as it is.

#2 TOTALLY! Any level headed human being would want to pay money to support games they like. One big reason for piracy is just to have a good trial. Demos can sometimes be misleading by giving you only the best level and then you buy the game and find out the rest absolutely sucks. Retro games don't have demos, so ROMs are the only way to check them out.




If it's past the Warranty, then I'm 'assuming' the repair isn't going to be free.
It's probably a stock $50-60sih to repair the console to 'like new' condition I'm guessing.

Try $100+. Factory repairs don't come cheap. This is one more reason I'm very against the idea of 1 console 1 serial number purchases. What if someone jacks your Wii and you don't even know your serial number to deauthorize it to transfer your DLC? At least with physical games there's limitations to what someone could steal unless they have all day. Also, there's a better chance of them getting caught if you hurry and report it to the police and all the local game stores/pawn shops to be on the look out for someone trading in boatloads of games.



I hope mine never gets hurt, lol... and the way I'm super anal about putting my Consoles up and having them covered/etc when I'm not using them, I don't have anything to worry about. :o

That doesn't always help. XBOX 360s will RROD pretty much no matter what, I literally don't know a single XBOX 360 owner that hasn't had it happen. If repaired by someone that knows what they're doing, they tend to go for a little while, but the systems I've repaired have only been back in service about a year and a half, so who knows what will happen 5-10 years from now. Wiis and PS3s have a better track record (excluding the backwards compatible ps3s), but systems that get hot enough to require fans tend to not last as long as older hardware due to thermal cycling, etc.


RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE!

I posted that because it's better emulation and more flexible, not because it's piracy you jackass. Think of common sense reasons for my posts before going off on nonsense irrelevant tangents. I don't like supporting half-assed commercial emulations. I'd rather do without than download pretty much anything on the Wii VC.



This isn't exactly the same kind of tearing that would be exhibited in a 3D game with No working V-Sync... but the effect I'm seeing is a horizontal squiggly looking artifact that goes from one side of the screen to the other.

It occurs at about 3/4 of the screen from the bottom.
It's plainly visible in Nintendos own video. Right when the game starts, look at the Black and Yellow ground textures and you'll see it.

I see what you mean, and that is V-Sync issues. With proper configuration, MAME shouldn't do that. Ironically, my video out from my computer has a tear that travels from the bottom to the top of the screen about once every 5 minutes, but it's so infrequent it's not really an issue (I have a hell of a network of adapters and other crap though, a straight S-Video out from the video card probably wouldn't have that problem). Constant frame tears drive me insane, I won't use emulators if they don't have V-Sync.

[Knuckle Duster]

They did the Port for VC?

They hold the rights to publish games for the VC, they bought a license from Nintendo. The developer or copyright holder licensed it to them as a middle man.

It should be noted that Nintendo has removed material from the European VC that got uploaded & was legitimately broken, the game would crash for everybody. It was an obscure title but did get removed after complaints. They do listen. Put up a stink and they might push for a patch to it. That happens too.



I posted that because it's better emulation and more flexible, not because it's piracy you jackass. Think of common sense reasons for my posts before going off on nonsense irrelevant tangents. I don't like supporting half-assed commercial emulations. I'd rather do without than download pretty much anything on the Wii VC.

Justify your ignorance and consistent whining any way you feel like. It doesn't change any point that I've made in regards to your output. We know you would rather do without than download from the VC, yet you continue to troll VC threads with your 'opinion'.

It's cool to have an opinion, but when you repeat it & hinge outside arguments as being irrelevant if only people would heed your wisdom, that's when the pretentious & cocky stupidity flag is raised on your part. It's just coincidence that in this instance your 'rhetoric' should rely on piracy.

[OldSchool]

This has been my concern from the get-go and everyone has pretty much said "lol, your dumb". Until they ensure permanent entitlement to the DLC, I'll only support must-haves that aren't available on discs.

Try $100+. Factory repairs don't come cheap. This is one more reason I'm very against the idea of 1 console 1 serial number purchases. What if someone jacks your Wii and you don't even know your serial number to deauthorize it to transfer your DLC? At least with physical games there's limitations to what someone could steal unless they have all day. Also, there's a better chance of them getting caught if you hurry and report it to the police and all the local game stores/pawn shops to be on the look out for someone trading in boatloads of games.

That doesn't always help. XBOX 360s will RROD pretty much no matter what, I literally don't know a single XBOX 360 owner that hasn't had it happen. If repaired by someone that knows what they're doing, they tend to go for a little while, but the systems I've repaired have only been back in service about a year and a half, so who knows what will happen 5-10 years from now. Wiis and PS3s have a better track record (excluding the backwards compatible ps3s), but systems that get hot enough to require fans tend to not last as long as older hardware due to thermal cycling, etc.

I see what you mean, and that is V-Sync issues. With proper configuration, MAME shouldn't do that. Ironically, my video out from my computer has a tear that travels from the bottom to the top of the screen about once every 5 minutes, but it's so infrequent it's not really an issue (I have a hell of a network of adapters and other crap though, a straight S-Video out from the video card probably wouldn't have that problem). Constant frame tears drive me insane, I won't use emulators if they don't have V-Sync.

That is the case though... as long as I own the Wii, I'm good to go... well, lol... and as long as Nintendo is in business. Perfect scenario would be = my Wii stays alive forever and the DLed games last forever on my SD card.

I doubt it's $100 but I'm going to find out tonight and report back tomoddow.

Well, since you mentioned how unreliable 360s are, I'm going to have do lots of research before buying one... still a long ways away seeing as they're no where near the $200 price point yet. When they've got one with a 160 GB drive for $200, I might bite depending on what I read about their reliability (and more importantly, how many Exclusive games are out for it that I want).

Yup... I don't understand how a 2D game is having Tear Issues in the first place, but I'm a noob when it comes to emulation so...

[Robivy64]

Just curious 17daysolderetc, what is your method of repairing these Xbox 360s that suffer from the RROD?

[17daysolderthannes]

Justify your ignorance and consistent whining any way you feel like. It doesn't change any point that I've made in regards to your output. We know you would rather do without than download from the VC, yet you continue to troll VC threads with your 'opinion'.

It's cool to have an opinion, but when you repeat it & hinge outside arguments as being irrelevant if only people would heed your wisdom, that's when the pretentious & cocky stupidity flag is raised on your part. It's just coincidence that in this instance your 'rhetoric' should rely on piracy.

I'm sorry, I'm trolling an opinion thread with my opinion? I guess I should be reprimanded for voting in a voting booth as well :huh:

I repeat my statement because every single fucking thread goes like this:

someone: "hey, I want game X"

me: "I recommend just emulating it, it's the most accurate way outside of a physical copy"

someone: "I'm going to ignore you and instead pay money for an inferior quality product"

me: *facepalm*

someone: "Oh shit! this emulation sucks! I wasted my money on this crap!"

...and the cycle continues.

Same goes for alot of things...

someone: "hey, I want to do mod X on my system and I have no experience!"

me: "bad idea"

someone: "HEY MAN! YOU'RE NOT THE BOSS OF ME!"

some time later...

someone: "so, I totally boned my system and it's a hunk of junk now"

me: *facepalm*

If people would just CONSIDER what I say sometimes, crises could be averted.


That is the case though... as long as I own the Wii, I'm good to go... well, lol... and as long as Nintendo is in business. Perfect scenario would be = my Wii stays alive forever and the DLed games last forever on my SD card.

I doubt it's $100 but I'm going to find out tonight and report back tomoddow.

Well, since you mentioned how unreliable 360s are, I'm going to have do lots of research before buying one... still a long ways away seeing as they're no where near the $200 price point yet. When they've got one with a 160 GB drive for $200, I might bite depending on what I read about their reliability (and more importantly, how many Exclusive games are out for it that I want).

Yup... I don't understand how a 2D game is having Tear Issues in the first place, but I'm a noob when it comes to emulation so...

But they WON'T last forever on your SD card (maybe if you copy them to something else and copy them back every 5 years or so they will).

I don't doubt for a second it's $100 for most repairs. It's probably more.

The new XBOX 360 slim might finally be reliable since it's the first 100% redesign. Still, I wouldn't count on it, everything I've ever used from Microsoft was 100% fail except for the original XBOX since everything about it was made by someone else except the OS.

The game is having tearing issues because it's not rendering the frames at the same frequency of the refresh rate of your monitor. Regardless of the gameplay framerate (what you see when you turn FPS counters on), the display of any analog NTSC TV is outputting 60 fps, even if some of those frames are actually the same frame. Any powerful computer should be able to properly render these frames, but if the timing is not synced, it will have a constant tear between the end of the last frame and the start of the new frame. V Sync makes this gap occur off screen below/above the frame so it appears seamless.


Just curious 17daysolderetc, what is your method of repairing these Xbox 360s that suffer from the RROD?

The towel fix

OMGWTFBBQLMAO j/k

I did the screw and washer fix. There are a shit ton of varieties out there, many of which are fundamentally incorrect and won't work well if at all. It takes a thorough understanding of what is taking place to do it to where it will last longer than a couple days/weeks/a month. Of any repair, I would say RROD is the most art vs. straightforward plug-and-play.

[OldSchool]

But they WON'T last forever on your SD card (maybe if you copy them to something else and copy them back every 5 years or so they will).

I don't doubt for a second it's $100 for most repairs. It's probably more.

The new XBOX 360 slim might finally be reliable since it's the first 100% redesign. Still, I wouldn't count on it, everything I've ever used from Microsoft was 100% fail except for the original XBOX since everything about it was made by someone else except the OS.

The game is having tearing issues because it's not rendering the frames at the same frequency of the refresh rate of your monitor. Regardless of the gameplay framerate (what you see when you turn FPS counters on), the display of any TV is outputting 60 fps, even if some of those frames are actually the same frame. Any powerful computer should be able to properly render these frames, but if the timing is not synced, it will have a constant tear between the end of the last frame and the start of the new frame. V Sync makes this gap occur off screen below/above the frame so it appears seamless.

I know what V-Sync does... I was saying I've only ever seen Tears in 3D games and never in a 2D game (because I don't emulate).


I'll have my SD card backed up to my PC so I'm not worried in the least.

[Robivy64]

The only true fix is to reball the CPU and GPU with leaded solder and use a BGA rework station to remove and resolder the BGA packages to the motherboard. With leaded solder, the BGA connections are able to properly expand and contract with fluctuating temperature changes.

The Xclamp/screw washer/12 cent fixes/etc force the motherboard to flex, causing a temporary bridge in the cracked BGA connection allowing it to work temporarily. I hope you tell your customers that their Xbox could die again at any time.

That's like someone getting their throat slashed, and the hospital applies a band-aid to stop the bleeding. And not just any band-aid, the cheap off-brand ones with unrecognizable unlicensed cartoon characters on them.

[17daysolderthannes]

I know what V-Sync does... I was saying I've only ever seen Tears in 3D games and never in a 2D game (because I don't emulate).


I'll have my SD card backed up to my PC so I'm not worried in the least.

Well, I was explaining what was happening in terms of emulation. When emulating, it's not outputting straight from a system to a TV/monitor. Instead, it's outputting from a virtual video output and then to your actual video output.

Until your hard drive dies...

You can do just about whatever you want, but unlike CD/DVD or cartridge based games, one day your Wii is going to die or you'll lose your backup. If you're OK with a limited service life, then that's fine, but don't kid yourself in terms of longevity. For instance, I want to buy SF II HD Remix. I'm basically buying it to play online. So, for me, I don't really mind if I can play it 20 years from now because the online community will be long gone if the servers are up at all and I'd rather play the real deal in MAME than what I consider a fairly cheesy remake if I'm going to play locally only.

[BetaWolf47]

What are you mentioning about screen tearing here? I've played tons of VC games and have seen none, unlike on PC emulators.

You're leaving out an important fact when you're talking about computer emulators, and that's the method that they deal with screen tearing. Vsync is a pretty crappy method. All it does is delay a few frames so that the upper part of the screen doesn't fall behind. This just results in a jumpy framerate.

How are VC releases even broken? The emulation accuracy is very good in them. The biggest problem I've heard is a sound glitch in Yoshi's Story.

[OldSchool]

The only true fix is to reball the CPU and GPU with leaded solder and use a BGA rework station to remove and resolder the BGA packages to the motherboard. With leaded solder, the BGA connections are able to properly expand and contract with fluctuating temperature changes.

The Xclamp/screw washer/12 cent fixes/etc force the motherboard to flex, causing a temporary bridge in the cracked BGA connection allowing it to work temporarily. I hope you tell your customers that their Xbox could die again at any time.

That's like someone getting their throat slashed, and the hospital applies a band-aid to stop the bleeding. And not just any band-aid, the cheap off-brand ones with unrecognizable unlicensed cartoon characters on them.

lol


Well, I was explaining what was happening in terms of emulation. When emulating, it's not outputting straight from a system to a TV/monitor. Instead, it's outputting from a virtual video output and then to your actual video output.

Until your hard drive dies...

You can do just about whatever you want, but unlike CD/DVD or cartridge based games, one day your Wii is going to die or you'll lose your backup. If you're OK with a limited service life, then that's fine, but don't kid yourself in terms of longevity. For instance, I want to buy SF II HD Remix. I'm basically buying it to play online. So, for me, I don't really mind if I can play it 20 years from now because the online community will be long gone if the servers are up at all and I'd rather play the real deal in MAME than what I consider a fairly cheesy remake if I'm going to play locally only.

Fair enough.


My collection is going to outlive me, so I'm not worried.


What are you mentioning about screen tearing here? I've played tons of VC games and have seen none, unlike on PC emulators.

You're leaving out an important fact when you're talking about computer emulators, and that's the method that they deal with screen tearing. Vsync is a pretty crappy method. All it does is delay a few frames so that the upper part of the screen doesn't fall behind. This just results in a jumpy framerate.

How are VC releases even broken? The emulation accuracy is very good in them. The biggest problem I've heard is a sound glitch in Yoshi's Story.

Which specific part of my in depth post do you not understand?
Quote it and I'll clarify for you.


:|

[j_factor]

How are VC releases even broken? The emulation accuracy is very good in them. The biggest problem I've heard is a sound glitch in Yoshi's Story.

It really depends on which game/system you're talking about. Check out this comparison, it's pretty bad:

<object width="480" height="385"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/_J4saQEatbQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/_J4saQEatbQ&hl=en_US&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="480" height="385"></embed></object>

[17daysolderthannes]

The only true fix is to reball the CPU and GPU with leaded solder and use a BGA rework station to remove and resolder the BGA packages to the motherboard. With leaded solder, the BGA connections are able to properly expand and contract with fluctuating temperature changes.

The Xclamp/screw washer/12 cent fixes/etc force the motherboard to flex, causing a temporary bridge in the cracked BGA connection allowing it to work temporarily. I hope you tell your customers that their Xbox could die again at any time.

That's like someone getting their throat slashed, and the hospital applies a band-aid to stop the bleeding. And not just any band-aid, the cheap off-brand ones with unrecognizable unlicensed cartoon characters on them.

Oh, I'm sorry, let me just get out my magical several thousand dollar microchip reballer and take care of that :huh: . The screw and washer fix is the only economical fix. When I worked for Play N Trade, we charged $60 and when I do it for people I know I only charge $40 (including materials). Most people would be happy to buy another 2-5 years for $40, especially in the case of one of my friends that bought one off of eBay that had a hack-job RROD fix done and 3 lighted like 2 days after he got it (and he couldn't send it back because he already took it apart and tried to fix it himself).

Also, the screw and washer fix does not cause the board to flex, at least not the way I do it (I know the shitty penny fix and all that nonsense does, that shit is absolute garbage). The screws simply hold the heat sinks to the chips more firmly while also forcing the chips to stay attached to the board better than the shitty x-clamps do. You put washers on both sides of the board to space it appropriately so it DOESN'T flex. All I can say about it is that once I learned the ins and outs, all of the 360s I've fixed are still working to the best of my knowledge (unless something else happened like 1 light E-74 which is an unrelated problem from another chip due to Microfail's wonderful quality).

The screw and washer fix isn't perfect, far from it in fact, so much so I was hesitant to do it at all at first because I didn't believe it would be effective. Regardless, when done correctly, 360s can last indefinitely, though I still always tell people it's not a perfect fix and probably won't last forever, which is why I always tell people to stay away from 360s because no matter what you do it's going to end up in the junk pile eventually. If you're trying to quote the mooks on 360 forums claiming it always red rings again, it's because they're hacks and don't know what they're doing. Don't blame me for not being able to do what Microsoft should've done in the first place, I do what I can without costing more than a new 360.

I should've known you were just begging for troll bait, what else ever comes out of your mouth? Don't preach to me about material properties and tell me I'm putting bending moments on stuff when I'm not you glorified switchboard operator.

http://rosenblumtv.files.wordpress.com/2007/07/switchboard.jpg

"This is Robivy, how may I help you?"

Yeah, and I'M the one that regurgitates stuff he read on google :roll:



You're leaving out an important fact when you're talking about computer emulators, and that's the method that they deal with screen tearing. Vsync is a pretty crappy method. All it does is delay a few frames so that the upper part of the screen doesn't fall behind. This just results in a jumpy framerate.


First of all, Wii VC is basically a computer with composite output, so any output problems a computer might have the Wii will have too. Also, I don't know what you're talking about, V Sync does not make my framerate jumpy. It doesn't delay frames, it just ensures it renders them at the same pace as the monitor refresh. If your frames are being rendered weird, try changing your display settings to 60hz as 70hz WILL cause irregular frame rendering.

[Robivy64]

You take the bait every time.

Thanks for taking the time to craft up that post.

[17daysolderthannes]

You take the bait every time.

Thanks for taking the time to craft up that post.

http://pushrod.files.wordpress.com/2008/02/2192192956_c9023211ca.jpg

Hopefully that post will at least be useful to someone with regards to avoiding a 360 or repairing their horrible purchase.

[Knuckle Duster]

EjMNNpIksaI
Sega-16 Wars: Episode V
The Nerd Rage Strikes Back

It is a dark time for the
Boards. Although TheEdge
has been destroyed. 17days
has driven regular members
from their legitimate discussions
and trolled them across the boards.

Evading the engineer know-it-all's understanding,
a group of tolerant individuals lead
by Melf have established an behavioral
acceptance in the remote thread
of Forum Rules.

The evil 17daysolderthannes,
obsessed with pissing on
everything, has dispatched
thousands of useless posts
of which all are far from on-topic.

[OldSchool]

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=snes+final+fight+3&_sacat=0&_trksid=p3286.m270.l1313&LH_BIN=1&_dmpt=Video_Games_Games&_odkw=snes+final+fight+2&_osacat=0&bkBtn=

Uh oh... looks like I'm gonna need to grab this on VC as well, lol.

$20 for part 2 isn't a bad price, but $50 for part 3... gtfo.



Meh, I'll grab 'em both for $10 or less/ea on VC and be done with it.


When the Resale Market wants to play ball, I'll contribute, otherwise they leave me no choice but to go to Nintendo. Thankfully I can do this with a few quality titles.

[kool kitty89]

what bugs me is how the industry now equates second hand sales with piracy. this is what happens when the industry gets the only voice in the debate. they get to define all the rules. but in the end, the industry will crash from their heavy handiness. their problems arent from the "pirates", their problems are from their lack of quality content.

They've been doing that on and off since the 80s... iirc Nintendo at one point sued rental stores for renting their games and tried to stop it entirely. (eventually they worked out a licensing system iirc)

But you're quite right: I we wouldn't own 75-90% of our games (including PC) if it wasn't for used or budget releases. (like the 5-pack or entertainment pack compilations for PC -becoming less common for good games)



OMfG, lol... look at that 'Tear', guys. Nintendos' own video shows the same shit I'm seeing on my TV.

I'm about to call them and hang them.
$9 a Sprite based non 3d game with Tearing... lol... they're out of their bloody minds

Holy crap, screen tearing :shock: Does it do it in 480i mode too?

Even most early 3D consoles didn't have many tearing problems (it's an issue with proper video buffering, normally when the framebuffer isn't double buffered -thus causing tearing instead of dropped frames)


You think tearing was uncommon in old consoles?
The NES games still have slowdown on the wii. The emulation is accurate to the hardware. There's no filtering.
Yes, it was NOT a problem on sprite/tile based platforms: sprite flicker/drop-out is a completely different issue. (except for 3D games being pushed on such consoles, even then it's not that common -as they tend to be double buffered or synced to the video signal Race Drivin', Virtua Racing and Stellar Fire don't tear for example)


What does "tearing" mean ? I can't see anything wrong with Ninja Commando...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Screen_tearing
It's an artifact caused by the screen not being drawn fast enough to match the refresh rate of the display, almost always llimited to single-buffered displays, it's common on old computers using bitmapped graphics (a lot of DOS games, some Atari ST games, probably some Amiga Games, some CPC and Spectrum games I think too) The VIC-20 had it really bad at times iirc. Possibly some A5200/8-bit games using the bitmap modes possibly some C64 games doing such as well.
A lot of ST games used double buffering, but a fair amount didn't, like Joust.


Tearing doesn't exist on non 3D games.
Yes it does, just not on most 2D consoles. It happens on plenty of other platforms, usually with single buffered bitmapped displays. Old 2D PC games should have that problem if running on old, weak hardware (not powerful enough to keep up with the refresh rate and not double buffered). Any game on an old, slow PC without use of double buffering will get tearing as the screen can't be drawn fast enough to match the refresh rate of the display. The same thing happens with FMV on underpowered machines. (and overworking graphics in general -I get tearing on my laptop set to power saver mode just moving windows or scrolling on my 1440x900 60 Hz display)



Really? Wonder why none of the Youtube Neo Geo vids have this horrible Tearing effect in their videos.
Tearing is sometimes caused by the capture devices/software too. (sometimes combing is also a big problem due to it being SD content and 240p not being supported specifically on many capture devices)


This isn't exactly the same kind of tearing that would be exhibited in a 3D game with No working V-Sync... but the effect I'm seeing is a horizontal squiggly looking artifact that goes from one side of the screen to the other.
That sounds like combing, not tearing, it's a deinterlacing artifact caused by HDTVs displaying SD content, note that many VC games do not display in 480p. That could be your TV's fault, not the game's and would make much more sense than screen tearing.
You should see similar artifacts when playing actual old consoles too. (SNES, NES, MD, etc) If not, I'm not sure what to tell you unless you're setting for component video input (I assume your Wii uses that) are different than composite/s-video. (you won't see it on SDTVs or HDTVs with proper 240p support -which do exist and should simply line double 240p content to 480p 60 Hz content, though some may have trouble supporting it via component or especially VGA)

This is combing:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/Interlaced_video_frame_(car_wheel).jpg

[Roussimoff]

Forgive me here guys, but what the hell IS "virtual console"???! Is it some system that I havent heard of, or?? I keep seeing mention of it in people's posts and in their tag-lines, but I have no earthly clue what it IS!!

I am assuming from what I have been able to gather that it has something to do with emulation, or??

Thanks!

Oh, Knuckle..nice Star Wars analogy there, but I wouldnt say "EVIL" in reference to 17days...nahhhh....just VERY lonely and perhaps in need of good therapy and/or someone to pay attention to him..."Obnoxious, overly opinionated, and profoundly sad internally", maybe, but "EVIL" is a little harsh.

[Knuckle Duster]

Virtual Console is a part of the Wii Shop Channel on Nintendo Wii.
It's broken up into different sections where you can buy games for:

Sega Genesis, TurboGrafx 16, SNES, NES, Sega Master System, N64, Arcade, Neo Geo, Commodore 64

It lets you buy certain games from each of those platforms using 'Wii Points' which you can buy with a Credit Card, or use a Wii Points gift-card bought at retail.

They're basically officially emulated ROMs that you buy individually that run legitimately on the Wii from the menu.

There's also WiiWare which has games specifically made for Wii that were not released before to those supported VC platforms. 'New' downloadable games that might take full advantage of the Wii's graphics.

Since the Wii came out, Nintendo has been releasing usually 2-3 games every monday to the North American VC or WiiWare.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virtual_Console
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Virtual_Console_games_(North_America)

[Roussimoff]

Huh...thats neat! Two questions though:

1.) Why would one pay when ROMs are free?

2.) Is there a 'handheld' or a portable version of such a thing? (Dont say AceKard...ha..;))

How much do they charge for the games? Also, how is it that the Big N has the rights to sell/rent games from NEC, Sega, Apple, etc?

Very curious about this...wow...technology, eh?

[Knuckle Duster]

Why does someone pay for Music, Movies, TV Shows, when they are free?

Same answer: They aren't free.

[Roussimoff]

Cryptic, but.... o k .... ;)

Are you meaning as in "piracy is THEFT and hurts EVERYONE in the end, the game COMPANIES as well as the CONSUMER, and will bring about a PLAGUE of SERPENTS" - 'not free', or?? :p

Maybe I missed the train....

[BetaWolf47]

Maybe I missed the train....

More like you're playing stupid just so you can point out obvious disadvantages of VC.

[Metal_Sonic]

Cryptic, but.... o k .... ;)

Are you meaning as in "piracy is THEFT and hurts EVERYONE in the end, the game COMPANIES as well as the CONSUMER, and will bring about a PLAGUE of SERPENTS" - 'not free', or?? :p

Maybe I missed the train....

ROM's require a PC/Electricity/monitor and if you want a "console" experience, a cord from PC-->TV and a gamepad. For Virtual Console you need a Wii/TV/Electricity/etc. Nothing is ever "free", something will cost you something.

[Roussimoff]

WHAT?? LOL "obvious disadvantages"?? Nope, you have me at a disadvantage I'm afraid....I am honestly CURIOUS! I know of the Wii system of course, I see them at pawn here a lot, but have only heard of this 'virtual console' as of late. At $2 or whatever it is a game though, it sounds fair enough, especially if they are EXACT emulations, many of the Genesis and SNES games that we get for the AceKard have flaws...weird music, missing sprites, etc..

I dont think it would work for us though, not unless they come out with this 'VC' for the DS I'm afraid, we mainly are into handhelds. (I work for a catering outfit so I have to be "on call" at the drop of a hat, oftentimes I cant be tethered to a TV..:()

And just so you KNOW sir, I dont have to "PLAY stupid", I are plentie STOOPID enough thnx yoo!!
;)

Metal...that made sense, yep. I follow you... I am intrigued at this 'VC' concept, but again, unless its made available for a handheld, I have no use for it sadly. Maybe this new system coming out, '3DS' will support it, no?

[MrMatthews]

Roussi, there's no "VC" for the DS yet, but if you have a DSi you have access to DSiWare. There's a fair number of original titles on the service, a handful of iPhone ports, and a smattering of console ports (Rayman & Dragons Lair, most notably). The rest of the titles are, for the most part, slimmed down versions of full retail games.

Stay away from anything by Gameloft.

[Roussimoff]

I see...thanks! We dont have "DSIs" though, we have DS Lites. (Which BTW we are still both FLOORED at!!...we are coming from having SP, so its like going from Atari 2600 to Saturn!)

I was offered a DSI from some punkass kid locally, but I dunno...with the 'new' Nintendo handheld right around the corner I think that I'll wait.

Thanks for the info though!

(In furthur response to Beta's "playing stupid" comment, hell, I know that its probably very HARD for a lot of YOU guys here to believe because you live and breathe all of this shit, but I'm a friggin LUDDITE when it comes to technology...I first held a DS less than a month ago, and a PSP about the same, so.... I havent even THOUGHT about touching a PS3, X-Box, Wii...nope..we have our PS2 and I love that! :) So I guess what I'm trying to say here is, dont be so CYNICAL and SKEPTICAL guys...its "be NICE to OLD PEOPLES week" !! )

[Zoltor]

WHAT?? LOL "obvious disadvantages"?? Nope, you have me at a disadvantage I'm afraid....I am honestly CURIOUS! I know of the Wii system of course, I see them at pawn here a lot, but have only heard of this 'virtual console' as of late. At $2 or whatever it is a game though, it sounds fair enough, especially if they are EXACT emulations, many of the Genesis and SNES games that we get for the AceKard have flaws...weird music, missing sprites, etc..

I dont think it would work for us though, not unless they come out with this 'VC' for the DS I'm afraid, we mainly are into handhelds. (I work for a catering outfit so I have to be "on call" at the drop of a hat, oftentimes I cant be tethered to a TV..:()

And just so you KNOW sir, I dont have to "PLAY stupid", I are plentie STOOPID enough thnx yoo!!
;)

Metal...that made sense, yep. I follow you... I am intrigued at this 'VC' concept, but again, unless its made available for a handheld, I have no use for it sadly. Maybe this new system coming out, '3DS' will support it, no?



Huh, It's hard to believe you know of the wii's existance, but not the VC(they cost alittle more then that, but yea they are exact emulations of the games), It's easily one of the things that makes the wii such a great system(aside from the Nintendo channel of course, which is the greatest service/network ever devised of).

I personally don't see any problem with the VC(even looking foward for the gaming industry), as they are emulations of games thet were actually produced via cart(I personally rather have/play the cart, but It's a great service to the industry no matter what way you look at it).

Now the wiiware is another story, they are new games, but only released in digital form, which like many, don't like where that could eventually lead(aka all games becoming digital only in the future). True enough they will be cheaper to purchase, but #1 they have no real value, and #2 if the system ever dies, gets stolen, gets destroyed by a natral desaster, exc, you are "screwed".

[Roussimoff]

"WiiWare"?? I THINK I understand...so then these "VC" games ARE ROMs, or?? (That is to say, like you mentioned, there are no "hard copies", only what exists on your Wii itself, YES?)

Wiiware and VC are one in the same, yes?

Oh, and "Nintendo Channel" ??? Huh? Is this a service like the Sega Channel of the 1990s, or?

Still though, as neat as all of this sounds, if I cant take it with me in my pocket/case, than I have little usage for it. :(

[MrMatthews]

Get a DSi.

:)

[Zoltor]

"WiiWare"?? I THINK I understand...so then these "VC" games ARE ROMs, or?? (That is to say, like you mentioned, there are no "hard copies", only what exists on your Wii itself, YES?)

Wiiware and VC are one in the same, yes?

Oh, and "Nintendo Channel" ??? Huh? Is this a service like the Sega Channel of the 1990s, or?

Still though, as neat as all of this sounds, if I cant take it with me in my pocket/case, than I have little usage for it. :(

Yes, VC games are "roms" indeed, but of older games, that were released on other systems(in actual phisical form), but the wiiware games are new games that are digital only(rom only), which there has never been a physical cart/CD game made for.

I'm not familiar with the Sega Channel, but the Nintento channel has every game scheduled for release within like a year(and not just games for the wii either, it shows every game for a system/service owned by nintendo: Aka wii, VC, Wiiware, DS, DSi, DSiware, and such). Also each game has like a mini website, where you can view all official trailers, gameplay videos, and intrerview videos about the game, not to mention some minor features like a game rating/ranking system.

[Roussimoff]

"Get a DSI", eh? Honestly man, all I have heard about the system were things like "ANOTHER needless "upgrade"??" and so forth...I dunno... Tell me, in LAYMAN'S terms, what makes it "better" than our DS Lites?

As to the Nintendo Channel, wow...thats pretty involved...reviews and all, eh? Well hell, we just like to play games..lol...that would be overwhelming for both of us methinks...not enough time in a day as they say!
Thanks though, any information is appreciated! :D

BTW...am I doing whats called "thread crapping"?? lol...seems like this thread went from "........." to "let's educate an old caveman as to the ways of the Wii!" ha...

I dont want to "thread crap" :(

[MrMatthews]

Tell me, in LAYMAN'S terms, what makes it "better" than our DS Lites?

You're in luck, because I only speak layman.

Really, the biggest advantage the DSi has over the DS Lite is DSiWare. The DSi screen is bigger, but not noticeably so (just enough to take a little time off the battery life). They look a little classier (matte finish rather than the hi-gloss). The internal memory and the SD card slot are pretty sweet, but then again, that only comes in handy for downloading games from DSiWare.

No GBA slot, but the only people who care about that are whiny little crybabies that shouldn't have thrown their GBA's in the garbage when they got the DS, amirite??

So yeah. You should get one. :)

Edit: Asking questions isn't "thread crapping." Coming into a thread only to say "ALL NINTENDO PRODUCTS SUXXXXX!!" is thread crapping.

[Knuckle Duster]

You're in luck, because I only speak layman.

Really, the biggest advantage the DSi has over the DS Lite is DSiWare. The DSi screen is bigger, but not noticeably so (just enough to take a little time off the battery life). They look a little classier (matte finish rather than the hi-gloss). The internal memory and the SD card slot are pretty sweet, but then again, that only comes in handy for downloading games from DSiWare.

No GBA slot, but the only people who care about that are whiny little crybabies that shouldn't have thrown their GBA's in the garbage when they got the DS, amirite??

So yeah. You should get one. :)

DSi probably doesn't support his bootleg flash cart. It's not worth the upgrade for him.

[Zoltor]

You're in luck, because I only speak layman.

Really, the biggest advantage the DSi has over the DS Lite is DSiWare. The DSi screen is bigger, but not noticeably so (just enough to take a little time off the battery life). They look a little classier (matte finish rather than the hi-gloss). The internal memory and the SD card slot are pretty sweet, but then again, that only comes in handy for downloading games from DSiWare.

No GBA slot, but the only people who care about that are whiny little crybabies that shouldn't have thrown their GBA's in the garbage when they got the DS, amirite??

So yeah. You should get one. :)

Hey now, that's a bit unfair, I like GBA games(who doesn't, there's a bunch of goodies, including a Great or two), but never had a GBA(as at the time, I was busy buying PS1/PS2 games, among older games I still wanted, but didn't have yet), so when the DS Lite came out, that was music to my ears.

[MrMatthews]

DSi probably doesn't support his bootleg flash cart. It's not worth the upgrade for him.


Ah. Right.

Roussi, spend some money and stimulate our economy, ya communist.

[Roussimoff]

Matthews,

I understood 95% of that, thank you! :D So far though, I'm not sold. Matte finish? Ehhh... And as to the 'DSIWare' or whatever thats called, meh..we have AceKard that allows us DS games at a touch, so...

And the DEATH blow? NO GBA SLOT?!?!? WTF Nintendo?!? .....cries a silent tear...sniff...but we have 50+ KILLER titles for the GBA...how DARE they!! Ya know Nintendo, not EVERYONE that plays your handhelds has the attention span of a flea and is 17 years old...sheeeeesh....thats sad news...

Knuckle,

Methinks you are correct sir. I'll have to tell that local kid that I'll PASS on his DSI for $50....sorry...

"COMMUNIST"?!?! How DARE you! Why you...you...you!! (Points to John Lennon poster....;))

As to "stimulating the economy", huh, so its MY fault now that white-bread elitists elected G.W. Wasteospace?!? Its not MY fault that a redneck war-monger ruined the economy!! Sheeeesh!
;)


Speaking of this "3DS" Is there a GOOD news site that anyone knows of that has CURRENT info on the system? I'd LOVE to see a REAL picture of it, not someone's 'rendition' or a false photo...:?

[Knuckle Duster]

I believe Comrade Matthews had this happen to him as a child:

http://weheartfighting.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/zangief.gif

[OldSchool]

I believe Comrade Matthews had this happen to him as a child:

http://weheartfighting.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/zangief.gif

LOL... that's hilarious.

[OldSchool]

Holy crap, screen tearing :shock: Does it do it in 480i mode too?

Yes it does, just not on most 2D consoles. It happens on plenty of other platforms, usually with single buffered bitmapped displays. Old 2D PC games should have that problem if running on old, weak hardware (not powerful enough to keep up with the refresh rate and not double buffered). Any game on an old, slow PC without use of double buffering will get tearing as the screen can't be drawn fast enough to match the refresh rate of the display. The same thing happens with FMV on underpowered machines. (and overworking graphics in general -I get tearing on my laptop set to power saver mode just moving windows or scrolling on my 1440x900 60 Hz display)


Tearing is sometimes caused by the capture devices/software too. (sometimes combing is also a big problem due to it being SD content and 240p not being supported specifically on many capture devices)


That sounds like combing, not tearing, it's a deinterlacing artifact caused by HDTVs displaying SD content, note that many VC games do not display in 480p. That could be your TV's fault, not the game's and would make much more sense than screen tearing.

You should see similar artifacts when playing actual old consoles too. (SNES, NES, MD, etc) If not, I'm not sure what to tell you unless you're setting for component video input (I assume your Wii uses that) are different than composite/s-video. (you won't see it on SDTVs or HDTVs with proper 240p support -which do exist and should simply line double 240p content to 480p 60 Hz content, though some may have trouble supporting it via component or especially VGA)

This is combing:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/1/19/Interlaced_video_frame_(car_wheel).jpg

I only have an old Interlaced tv.

I've never seen tearing on ANY 2D game until now. And whatever I'm seeing isn't exactly tearing... it's kind of like a tear but not the same.


I appreciate you trying to help, but again... my tv only does Interlaced.

nope

I'm using Composite Cables on an old Interlaced Sony 27" Analog tv.


If that's "combing", then no: it isn't that either.

[16-bit]

Those Zangeifs are a ruddy pest up here in Canada, they keep suplexing vegetables out of my Dad's garden and stealing perogies out of the freezer.

[Roussimoff]

(would steal perogies anyday...damn...get some bacon and onion going and fry them...mmmmm.....dont forget the sour cream!)

Wow...fatty, eh? did I mention that I weigh 370 lbs? But its OK though, cause I'm 6'7" ;)

Mmmmm...perogies...thanks! Now I have to send my wife to the grocery....sheeesh...

[InternalPrimate]

I agree with Matthews, the DSi is a fantastic system. Sure, you could probably hold on to a DS lite and wait for the 3DS (more of a new console than a small upgrade... hopefully), but you'd be missing out on all of the great DSware titles. It's worth it.

[kool kitty89]

I only have an old Interlaced tv.

I've never seen tearing on ANY 2D game until now. And whatever I'm seeing isn't exactly tearing... it's kind of like a tear but not the same.
It's probably flicker, you see it all the time on old consoles and better emulators also imitate it (though most also allow it to be disabled -fusion does for SMS but oddly not for Genesis). Sprite drop out is when the number of sprites on a single line exceeds the number the PPU/VDP/etc (display processor) is capable of displaying per line. Flicker is a trick used to display more spites than the hard limit per line, thus bypassing drop-out but at the expense of flicker. (games that don't incorporate flicker get drop-out in such cases)

It's not the same as tearing and should only occur with sprites. There are also other artifacts too, namely in the boarders at the lest and right of the screen you see garbage pixels with the wrong colors and such. (usually limited to the very edge of the screen -some TVs may not show it at all due to overscan)

However, since Ninja Commando is a Neo Geo game there really shouldn't be any flicker. (technically it's an all sprite system, but has such a high limit that drop out or flicker should almost never be an issue)



I appreciate you trying to help, but again... my tv only does Interlaced.
Actually, that's not entirely true: conventional SDTVs all support 240p (or 288p 50 Hz PAL) which is the normal 480i display with each field making up a single 240 line frame rather than 1/2 an interlaced frame. It's more of a tweak of the system but tons of platforms use it starting with early video game consoles or related arcade games I believe and continuing with home computers and game consoles through the 5th generation. (N64 is mostly 240p with some 480i)
IBM's CGA standard from the early 80s output in 240p (clipped to 200 lines), as did the Atari ST and Amiga. (Amiga supported interlace too)

It's easy to see the difference close up: with 48-i you see jiggling/scrolling horizontal lines, with 240p you see fixed lines with small gaps between them.

I actually wish modern graphics cards supported a 240p output mode via S-video/Component/composite. That's one neat thing that Wii VC does, displays in the original 240p but also in component video. :) (of course you can emulate scanlines too, though not properly if you're using composite/s-video out to an SDTV -I perfer HDTVs and monitors for emulation anyway)


I'm using Composite Cables on an old Interlaced Sony 27" Analog tv.

In composite, you may be getting dot-crawl which can appear as odd squiggling dots when scrolling. (the original NES has it pretty bad with it taking on an appearance of squiggly diagonal lines when scrolling)
It could very well be dot crawl then, especially if you see it more when scrolling than when standing still. S-Video or Component Video will solve this. (but not flicker)

This is dot crawl: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/c/c4/Crawl.jpg
http://img512.imageshack.us/img512/7355/nes29yy.gif




WHAT?? LOL "obvious disadvantages"?? Nope, you have me at a disadvantage I'm afraid....I am honestly CURIOUS! I know of the Wii system of course, I see them at pawn here a lot, but have only heard of this 'virtual console' as of late. At $2 or whatever it is a game though, it sounds fair enough, especially if they are EXACT emulations, many of the Genesis and SNES games that we get for the AceKard have flaws...weird music, missing sprites, etc..
Usually PC emulation is moderately to significantly better than VC emulation with the exception of actually displaying in the original 240p resolution on SDTVs. (if you care)
Sound is the most often issue, but in some cases there are graphical issues. (plus you lose things like save states, filters, stretching/scaling, sprite limiting options, etc) But it is the "legal" or "legitimate" option. (or you could buy old carts/CDs but play the ROMs -though technically it's still not legal iirc, but really who cares?)
The companies making the money off VC probably don't much care one way or another if they lose customers to used games or *piracy* it's effectively the same, except buying used games can affect the market price eventually. (higher used prices= more attractive VC)
In many cases carts are equal or cheaper to VC prices even. (and potentially neat things like translations and releases of old unreleased/canceled games rarely occurs unfortunately)





What are you mentioning about screen tearing here? I've played tons of VC games and have seen none, unlike on PC emulators.

You're leaving out an important fact when you're talking about computer emulators, and that's the method that they deal with screen tearing. Vsync is a pretty crappy method. All it does is delay a few frames so that the upper part of the screen doesn't fall behind. This just results in a jumpy framerate

I've never seen frame dropping or tearing in any PC emulator I've used... And also see no difference with Vsync enabled. Then again, I almost always use 60 Hz displays on my PCs. (my last LCD monitor and laptop only support 60 Hz -I did have a CRT at 70 Hz for several months though, but don't remember any issues)
I have seen some issues in emulators outputting to SDTVs though. (probably relating to the crappy hardware scaling of my current laptop's Nvidia 7150)

[PimpUigi]

bunch of buttsex this is
Remember last time you said this?
I checked with my wife again just in case I was mistake...
Buttsex = Great
Please find an actually accurate way to describe a bunch of bullshit...oh wait.

The new XBOX 360 slim might finally be reliable since it's the first 100% redesign. Still, I wouldn't count on it, everything I've ever used from Microsoft was 100% fail except for the original XBOX since everything about it was made by someone else except the OS.
The original Xbox was beast, that's true.
Microsoft was really on a roll in the first half of the new millennium.

1. Windows XP
2. Intellimouse Explorer 3.0
3. Xbox 1 - and both of its controllers
4. Office 2003

Then they destroyed their dominance of awesome.

1. Intellimouse Explorer 4.0/discontinuation of 3.0/nothing but bad mice in general (later fixed by rereleasing the 3.0)
2. Xbox 360
3. Windows Vista/7
4. Office 2007/2010

Four awesomes followed up with four fails.
Too bad so sad.
They're like the new Sega. lol

Those Zangeifs are a ruddy pest up here in Canada, they keep suplexing vegetables out of my Dad's garden and stealing perogies out of the freezer.
Too funny. Zangief is a beast.
That's why I main him in SF2 HD Remix (mained him since 1994)

[kool kitty89]

Microsoft was really on a roll in the first half of the new millennium.

1. Windows XP
2. Intellimouse Explorer 3.0
3. Xbox 1 - and both of its controllers
4. Office 2003

Don't forget Windows 2000 before XP... though then there was ME too...
That and they published Crimson Skies in 2000. ;) (I;m not going to mention Halo as that issue is a double edged sword -and th egame could have been out on PC/MAC months earlier than the Xbox and much earlier than it finally was released for PC/MAC)



Then they destroyed their dominance of awesome.
True, but once again, I find the flip of architectures with MAC and Xbox rather ironic. (that alone didn't cause the Xbox's problems though)



Four awesomes followed up with four fails.
Too bad so sad.
They're like the new Sega. lol
Yeah and they're taking huge hits on their current console too (due to price dumping and massive recalls/repairs), but unlike Sega they've got a huge, profitable multidivision company to absorb losses. (Sega's Arcade stuff wasn't nearly enough to compensate... Nintnedo had their handheld market too, so even they were/are better off in the case of a failed/limitedly successful platform)

[OldSchool]

Those Zangeifs are a ruddy pest up here in Canada, they keep suplexing vegetables out of my Dad's garden and stealing perogies out of the freezer.

hahaha... good one :)


(would steal perogies anyday...damn...get some bacon and onion going and fry them...mmmmm.....dont forget the sour cream!)

Wow...fatty, eh? did I mention that I weigh 370 lbs? But its OK though, cause I'm 6'7" ;)

Mmmmm...perogies...thanks! Now I have to send my wife to the grocery....sheeesh...

I'm gonna 2nd that... "mmmm"


Remember last time you said this?
I checked with my wife again just in case I was mistake...
Buttsex = Great
Please find an actually accurate way to describe a bunch of bullshit...oh wait.

LOL!! You're twisted you know that right ;)


It's probably flicker, you see it all the time on old consoles and better emulators also imitate it (though most also allow it to be disabled -fusion does for SMS but oddly not for Genesis). Sprite drop out is when the number of sprites on a single line exceeds the number the PPU/VDP/etc (display processor) is capable of displaying per line. Flicker is a trick used to display more spites than the hard limit per line, thus bypassing drop-out but at the expense of flicker. (games that don't incorporate flicker get drop-out in such cases)

It's not the same as tearing and should only occur with sprites. There are also other artifacts too, namely in the boarders at the lest and right of the screen you see garbage pixels with the wrong colors and such. (usually limited to the very edge of the screen -some TVs may not show it at all due to overscan)

However, since Ninja Commando is a Neo Geo game there really shouldn't be any flicker. (technically it's an all sprite system, but has such a high limit that drop out or flicker should almost never be an issue)


Actually, that's not entirely true: conventional SDTVs all support 240p (or 288p 50 Hz PAL) which is the normal 480i display with each field making up a single 240 line frame rather than 1/2 an interlaced frame. It's more of a tweak of the system but tons of platforms use it starting with early video game consoles or related arcade games I believe and continuing with home computers and game consoles through the 5th generation. (N64 is mostly 240p with some 480i)
IBM's CGA standard from the early 80s output in 240p (clipped to 200 lines), as did the Atari ST and Amiga. (Amiga supported interlace too)

It's easy to see the difference close up: with 48-i you see jiggling/scrolling horizontal lines, with 240p you see fixed lines with small gaps between them.

It's definitely not Sprite Flicker, I'm familiar with that... thanks to the NES, lol.
I would imagine not.


That's what I've got. "scrolling horizonal lines" when I view it up close... and it's VERY apparent on Text. Some games are worse than others.

From what I've seen: it happens mostly on the PS2 games and way less on the Wii games although it happens on both systems overall.

The NES/SNES/Genesis all look fantastic... I've never noticed any issues there. The Top Loader NES I 'had' had issues with scrolling artifacts on the screen but that was obviously due to the RF connection, once I got rid of that shite and picked up the original Toaster Oven NES, the picture was immediately cleared up by using the Composite cable.


As always, your posts are very interesting and insightful to read... thank you sir for taking the time once again. :)

[17daysolderthannes]

3. Windows Vista/7


Windows 7 is actually pretty nice. For Windows, it's probably the best out there if you're not talking backwards compatibility, etc. Once people start fully supporting it, it'll definitely be the most stomachable Windows yet.

Also, for the record, Microsoft ALWAYS sucked. Even as a kid I was like "what the fuck is wrong with this company!?"



True, but once again, I find the flip of architectures with MAC and Xbox rather ironic. (that alone didn't cause the Xbox's problems though)


actually, it had nothing to do with it. The entire reason for XBOX 360's failure is just poor cooling design, plain and simple. Any chip of equal power would be failing at the same rate (in fact, it's not even the chip failing, it's just desoldering itself from the board). People like to say it's the fault of the solder, but what people never consider is that the CPU rarely (if ever) suffers the same problem as the GPU and the only difference between the two is the heatsinks (the CPU may even run hotter, actually). If they would've modified the dainty little case to accommodate a properly sized GPU heatsink, it would probably work fine.

[Knuckle Duster]

Also, for the record, Microsoft ALWAYS sucked. Even as a kid I was like "what the fuck is wrong with this company!?"

Cool story bro.

Can you name any other company which supports an operating system designed to target multiple hardware platforms, while maintaining an expectation of function & traditionally supporting legacy software?

Microsoft are awesome at what they do. The only problem they have is that they don't have one department to control everything from a marketing standpoint, and they're aren't 'Cool' to hipster know-nothings.

[17daysolderthannes]

Cool story bro.

http://blogs.targetx.com/pbu/Sam/SM131~Mom-Says-I-m-Cool-Posters.jpg



Can you name any other company which supports an operating system designed to target multiple hardware platforms, while maintaining an expectation of function & traditionally supporting legacy software?

No, because it's a dumb idea. I've already read articles about iPhone developers saying they aren't going to bother with Droid because Droid is trying to do too much with so many compatible platforms that troubleshooting software would be an nightmare. With the iPhone/iPod/iPad touch, it's just the 3 iPhone models, the 2 or 3 iPod touches, and the iPad. Better to be a specialist than a jack of all trades and a master of none.

Futhermore, I wasn't talking just about Windows (which is probably Microsoft's BEST product), I'm talking about their HORRENDOUS hardware quality and all of their other shitty, overpriced software (thanks Microsoft Word, you crashed like 23452 times while I was adding pictures to a fucking report).



Microsoft are awesome at what they do. The only problem they have is that they don't have one department to control everything from a marketing standpoint, and they're aren't 'Cool' to hipster know-nothings.

Marketing has nothing to do with it (for me liking it, if that's what you meant). People basically called me a fag for liking Apple back in the 90's and early 2000's, now they all post on Facebook with a picture from PhotoBooth saying how much they love their new MacBook/iMac. All I can do is facepalm.

You say it's marketing, but its really just making a computer usable. You might not be able to do everything on a mac, but what you can do works and works well without all of the clunkiness of Windows. People always throw in the "well, if you weren't stupid" argument, but it's really that I don't want to spend all day just to do something simple on my computer. That's why the iPhone is better than all of the copy cat phones. The iPhone might be limited, but it's fast and designed for efficient use. All of the other touchscreen and regular smartphones I've used have me going "wait, now how the fuck do I do this?" because they just pile on features but then don't take the time to sort them out to make them intuitive.

[Zoltor]

Cool story bro.

Can you name any other company which supports an operating system designed to target multiple hardware platforms, while maintaining an expectation of function & traditionally supporting legacy software?

Microsoft are awesome at what they do. The only problem they have is that they don't have one department to control everything from a marketing standpoint, and they're aren't 'Cool' to hipster know-nothings.

That's because Billgates is pure evil, he used all his money to bribe this country to give him exclusive rights to any viable OS, that is user friendly(which is technically against the law by the way. Inshort, if It's a user friendly OS, with anything that has a window based layout, only Microsoft is allowed to make it).

Note: extremely broad copyrights like that, are against the law to give out, that's like saying after Dragon Warrior 1 came out, Enix got exclusive rights to beable to have pictues/a overworld map(meaning every RPG made by other companies would need to be mostly text).

[Knuckle Duster]

http://blogs.targetx.com/pbu/Sam/SM131~Mom-Says-I-m-Cool-Posters.jpg



No, because it's a dumb idea. I've already read articles about iPhone developers saying they aren't going to bother with Droid because Droid is trying to do too much with so many compatible platforms that troubleshooting software would be an nightmare. With the iPhone/iPod/iPad touch, it's just the 3 iPhone models, the 2 or 3 iPod touches, and the iPad. Better to be a specialist than a jack of all trades and a master of none.

The jack of all trades, master of none approach only applies to their walled garden software platform. Which ironically has been changed more often than not due to them Retconing the EULA.

Android is the same way, it has a platform revision in effect that developers target, the older models will get full 2.0 support eventually. The only difference between the two is that the new iPhone isn't out yet...rest assured that when it lands, it will have the same bullshit argument you seem to love throwing here, used against it.

Old hardware is old hardware. The stupid part here though, is that you choose to praise Apple's hardware when it's essentially licensed & identical to the competition.



Futhermore, I wasn't talking just about Windows (which is probably Microsoft's BEST product), I'm talking about their HORRENDOUS hardware quality and all of their other shitty, overpriced software (thanks Microsoft Word, you crashed like 23452 times while I was adding pictures to a fucking report).


What hardware? Outside of Xbox 360 console itself, they've been fantastic. With their Sidewinders and other PC peripherals they've dominated quite well the PC market, The Zune is an excellent piece of hardware that nobody notices.



Marketing has nothing to do with it. People basically called me a fag for liking Apple back in the 90's and early 2000's, now they all post on Facebook with a picture from PhotoBooth saying how much they love their new MacBook/iMac. All I can do is facepalm.

Marketing has everything to do with it, Microsoft don't look good to anybody outside of a corporate environment and haven't been genuinely interesting to the public since 1995.

Facepalm all you want, Apple has opted to shift it's target from tech elite to the AOL/Facebook scene. They're doing it, more power to them.


That because Billgates is pur evel, he used all his money to bribe this country to give him exclusive rights to any viable OS(which is technically against the law by the way. Inshort, if It's a user friendly OS, with anything that has a window based layout, only Microsoft is allowed to make it).

Note: extremely broad copyrights like that, are against the law to give out, that's like saying after Dragon Warrior 1 came out, Enix got exclusive rights to beable to have pictues/a overworld map(meaning every RPG made by other companies would need to be mostly text).

LOLZOMGWTF You don't know what you're talking about. :lol:

I'm no lover of Microsoft's patent litigation history, big business is big business. Everything you've just said is hilarious.

[17daysolderthannes]

That's because Billgates is pure evil, he used all his money to bribe this country to give him exclusive rights to any viable OS, that is user friendly(which is technically against the law by the way. Inshort, if It's a user friendly OS, with anything that has a window based layout, only Microsoft is allowed to make it).

Note: extremely broad copyrights like that, are against the law to give out, that's like saying after Dragon Warrior 1 came out, Enix got exclusive rights to beable to have pictues/a overworld map(meaning every RPG made by other companies would need to be mostly text).

you know Apple came out with the graphical interface first, right?

I know someone is going to chime in about Xerox, but Xerox just had the idea, Apple made it work. You could compare it to the MP3 player vs. the iPod: MP3 players were a nerd niche device until Apple made it streamlined for the mass market.

[Melf]

Um, could we please keep this discussion on topic? I think we have an Apple thread, don't we? If not, someone should plant one.

[kool kitty89]

That's what I've got. "scrolling horizonal lines" when I view it up close... and it's VERY apparent on Text. Some games are worse than others.
To be precise, I mean the lines are horizontal (scanlines) and the jiggle/scroll vertically. (that's the nature of an interlaced display, and there's really no scrolling, it's an optical illusion, it's one interlaced field displayed after another)

However, this may not be what you're seeing: for contrast you may want to compare a classic console (NES, SNES, Genesis, PS1, Saturn, etc) all of which display almost exclusively in "240p" such that you see the scanlines fixed with small gaps between, no scrolling/jiggling. (each field is now a single frame rather than 1/2 an interlaced frame)
This is the same for a motionless screen as an action-filled or scrolling one.
In my experience, most VC games display in 240p (if that was their original resolution) but switch to 480i when you bring up the wii menu. (the game screen in the background gets scaled to 480i)

Dot crawl is, again, another issue. (caused by composite video and often more apparent on interlaced displays, particularly with higher horizontal resolution -ie most modern systems) The NES tends to have some pretty nasty dot crawl too, clearly visible with vertically scrolling colored text (intro in zelda for example) and seen as odd diagonal lines and blocky sprite edges. (not just the low resolution, but the dot crawl making scattered pixely artifacts around the edges of objects)

It should never occur in S-video or component video as it's caused by the chroma signal interfering with the luma signal in composite video. (s-video and component have separate luma lines, composite carries chroma+luma single line)



From what I've seen: it happens mostly on the PS2 games and way less on the Wii games although it happens on both systems overall.
It sounds like it may be dot crawl, especially if it happens with VC games in 240p. (I see no reason Neo Geo games should be in 480i -perhaps 480p if set to that mode, but that's not the case here)
But it's odd that you don't find similar problems with NES games and such: the NES has the worst dot crawl of any composite video I've seen. (other than splitting composite into an S-video connector -which has full screen dot crawl and washed out color due to bypassing any comb filter and such inside the TV -crappy false SNES/N64/GC s-video cables do that)



The NES/SNES/Genesis all look fantastic... I've never noticed any issues there. The Top Loader NES I 'had' had issues with scrolling artifacts on the screen but that was obviously due to the RF connection, once I got rid of that shite and picked up the original Toaster Oven NES, the picture was immediately cleared up by using the Composite cable.
The top loader also has additional noise in the composite video due to poor shielding: the result is off color vertical lines. (most Japanese units also have that iirc -similar lack of shielding compared to the toaster)

[Zoltor]

Um, could we please keep this discussion on topic? I think we have an Apple thread, don't we? If not, someone should plant one.

To 17daysolderthannes: It doesn't matter whos first, it matters who has the most money, and who was corrupt enough to bribe the US, which in this case is Bill Gates.


Right, back on topic, the VC is awesome, and noone should be actually against it(as if you rather play it on cart/CD, then by all means do so, and there is no way in hell the VC will effect the value of games, only physical remakes do. that's one reason Square games aren't worth ****, despite the fact their older games, are basically all great games), but the wiiware servise on the other hand is scary(hell for both companies industry, and gamers/collectors alike).

I don't think anyone wants to see the gaming industry become digital only, omg that would suck if it happened.

[kool kitty89]

Windows 7 is actually pretty nice. For Windows, it's probably the best out there if you're not talking backwards compatibility, etc. Once people start fully supporting it, it'll definitely be the most stomachable Windows yet.
I've seen a bit of 7, it may be the best for the 64-bit OSs (not sure about XP --the x86-64 not the iA-64 one).
For the 32-bit versions, any advantages over XP (or even 2000) seem to be heavily outweighed by bloat. (more resource hungry -mainly RAM, especially compared to XP Service pack 1, or 2000 -even SP2/3 is still about 1/2-1/3 as bloated as 7/Vista)
I wish my laptop came with XP... (XP cost an extra $40 and transferring my old XP license would have been a huge PITA)

XP SP-1 seems to have been the best of the home consumer-oriented NT-based windows overall in terms of bloat and backwards compatibility (particularly win9x and DOS). 2000 is better still iirc (definitely bloat wise), but isn't technically "home consumer oriented." (insofar as the original target market -it was aimed more at business/professional)

Win98SE was (or is) pretty good too, they should have continued pushing that rather than that ME crap prior to XP... (and/or moved 2000 into that market) IIRC Tiido (TmEE) even uses that still as his main OS. (the main disadvantage is limited support, though I think there's a fair amount of 3rd party and homebrew/open patches and updates too -win 2k is in that area too though a lot of XP compatible stuff still seems to be OK on 2000)



Also, for the record, Microsoft ALWAYS sucked. Even as a kid I was like "what the fuck is wrong with this company!?"
IDK, but one big thing was OS/2 dying (Win95 was a big factor iirc), that was apparently one of the best if not the best (at least for the time) PC OSs ever released from several accounts. (my dad used it too -I still see old OS/2 Warp installation and driver disks floating around in boxes ;))
OS/2 was of course, initially a joint development of MS and IBM, but it was all IMB thereafter. (Warp was pretty neat from all accounts -can't personally comment though)

The NT based stuff (particularly earlier, less bloated stuff) was/is quite competitive too. (that includes 2000 and XP, of course)

I personally don't see what the big deal over MAC OS is about though, I've used it a lot since my sophmore year in HS (OSX on iMAC G4s), though with the PPC MACs you had the architecture (and perfomance) difference over contemporary PCs, but I've had glitches and problems on both OSs plenty of times, it's just different addressing them on a MAC vs PC, I'm more well associated with the PC in general, but fromt he perspective of an average user (avoiding going deep into modifying system setting and manually accessing things, etc -which I can do on a PC but not MAC -or at least don't know how to on a MAC), the amount of problems were pretty much identical, albeit different. (I will say I liked th eold iMAC keyboards 1000x better than the current chicklet crap they've got, worse than a cheap lap-top, mice are about the same -and PC mice are interchangeable as long as the drivers support them) In many cases, with newer iMACs (ie what we have at college), I can directly compare windows XP and OSX on the same machine (they dual boot), other than the mice and the keyboard missing functionality necessary for a PC that is.

I haven't used linux really, but I can see the attraction. (and I plenty of open source software in windows)



actually, it had nothing to do with it. The entire reason for XBOX 360's failure is just poor cooling design, plain and simple. Any chip of equal power would be failing at the same rate (in fact, it's not even the chip failing, it's just desoldering itself from the board).
Yeah, I know the whole issue. ;) DVD drive bigger than planned (or they went cheap) and the case was too small to accommodate a proper heat sink+fan, then the cheap, riveted x-clamp puts stress on the board which leverages the chip out as it desolders itself. (exacerbated by poor application of thermal paste)
But of the point of switching from x86, that ties into the whole use of custom components rather than off the shelf of the original xbox. (that and lack of proper backwards compatibility -which would still have been somewhat of an issue due to the different GPU -though shouldn't so much for any games conforming to the standard APIs which both GPUs should support -namely directX)



you know Apple came out with the graphical interface first, right?

I know someone is going to chime in about Xerox, but Xerox just had the idea, Apple made it work. You could compare it to the MP3 player vs. the iPod: MP3 players were a nerd niche device until Apple made it streamlined for the mass market.

Heh... plenty of developers working on similar things around the same time, this has been discussed plenty of times by home computer fans (probably much more extensively than anywhere on this board).

Xerox was the first, Apple worked with them there's a somewhat complex relationship, but iirc it was basically a trade (which Xerox never ended up taking advantage of) or a de-facto one at least, with Apple Engineers taking that design a step further with the failed Lisa then to the MAC. Others, like Digital Research, Tandy, and Commodore/Amiga were working on their own soon after or around the same time (certainly after PARC, possibly after Lisa), many of which (particularly Amiga OS) were considerably more advanced. (another was Apple's own GS-OS for the Apple IIgs which supported multitasking long before MAC OS did iirc)

Apple sued DR, of course, and more or less railroaded them, though DR was a bit wimpy/fearful over litigation in general and tended to fold apparently. (regardless the thing with Sony vs Bleem is reminiscent of that IMO)

Interestingly Apple never successfully sued CBM/Amiga over their OS and not Atari directly (though TOS+GEM was a derivative of DR's CP/M+GEM, with a lot of their own work done to convert it for 68k). Of course MS settles with Apple over Windows too. (MS got a rather nice deal too) And AFIK there was never any litigation over OS/2 either.


I'm done now, that's enough off topic. ;)


Edit: sorry Melf, missed that, again I'm done now. :)

[Roussimoff]

:blah::bang::daze::blah:

I HAVE to be from another friggin planet...wow...just WOW...

:rofl:

[kool kitty89]

Can you name any other company which supports an operating system designed to target multiple hardware platforms, while maintaining an expectation of function & traditionally supporting legacy software?

Wait... isn't linux like that??? (on multiple hardware platforms of entirely different architectures even!) That and there's tons of incompatibility jumping through generations of PC OSs. (unless you stick with good 'ol 98-SE)

OS/2 was another example (and was DOS compatible).

[MrMatthews]

:blah:

This is honestly all I see when some people post around here. I think there are a handful of members around here with an eye on that Pulitzer.

[Knuckle Duster]

Wait... isn't linux like that??? (on multiple hardware platforms of entirely different architectures even!) That and there's tons of incompatibility jumping through generations of PC OSs. (unless you stick with good 'ol 98-SE)

OS/2 was another example (and was DOS compatible).

You're comparing the product of the FLOSS hive mind to a company, Which was the target of scrutiny.

OS/2 from IBM would have been an acceptable answer, albeit one that's no longer really relevant and easy to overlook when comparing to the broadness and legacy of the Windows platform.

But again, off topic is off topic. SHAZBOT!

[OldSchool]

XP 32 has been rock solid for me since '04. It makes me happy n stuff.











don't burn me

[17daysolderthannes]

Um, could we please keep this discussion on topic? I think we have an Apple thread, don't we? If not, someone should plant one.

What's with the Off-Topic policing lately? I don't think any members have been complaining (unless they're doing it to you via PM) and it's been like this for as long as I've been here. Is it just that you're getting tired of reading threads and going "OMGWTFBBQ!?" as it steers off into chaos? Please don't become an on-topic Nazi and start warning/banning people and turn this forum into...just about every other forum on the internet.


:blah::bang::daze::blah:

I HAVE to be from another friggin planet...wow...just WOW...

:rofl:

Yeah, you come from a planet where anime is cool :rofl:


XP 32 has been rock solid for me since '04. It makes me happy n stuff.


don't burn me

:fit::furious::horse::end::offtopic::ban::t:

j/k

XP's more than fine (and alot better than Vista), especially at the present since many programs haven't been optimized for Windows 7 yet (bug fixes as well as performance).


back at Kool Kitty:

When I said 7 is the best Windows, I was talking for up-to-date computers with 4 or more GB of RAM and a fast multicore processor. Obviously it uses more RAM, etc., but it also handles multi-tasking and general operation better. And when I say handles it better, I mean from an end-user's perspective, not from a resource use perspective.

Also, the X-clamps are A) not riveted, they have clamp mounts that screw into the heat sink (why the screw and washer fix lets you screw into them without modification) and the x-clamp simply snaps onto that and B) the x-clamp does not pry the chip from the board, it actually does apply forces in the right places, just not enough to prevent the chip from desoldering itself or to hold the heatsink on firmly enough to cool it. And, again, the inadequate size of the heatsink is the main reason.

Oh, and Apple computers can use PC mice and keyboards, just putting that out there. Also, I like the Mac keyboard as I prefer the "snick snick" tightness of laptop keys over the clunkiness of traditional keyboards. As for OS X, you have to use it alot to really appreciate it. If you just passingly use it every once in a while at school, you probably aren't getting the most from it. You probably also have restrictions that keep you from accessing parts of the OS if you're using it at school. I remember in high school they had this shit called "Mac Manager" that turned a great Mac computer into a total lump of shit, which just gave mac haters even more ammo and made them stick their fingers even deeper into their ears.


Back to Wii VC: Ripoff Ripoff Ripoff, the end.

[kool kitty89]

What's with the Off-Topic policing lately? I don't think any members have been complaining (unless they're doing it to you via PM) and it's been like this for as long as I've been here. Is it just that you're getting tired of reading threads and going "OMGWTFBBQ!?" as it steers off into chaos? Please don't become an on-topic Nazi and start warning/banning people and turn this forum into...just about every other forum on the internet.

Probably for OT comments that seem likely to incite flame wards. (ie MAC vs PC, etc)



back at Kool Kitty:

When I said 7 is the best Windows, I was talking for up-to-date computers with 4 or more GB of RAM and a fast multicore processor. Obviously it uses more RAM, etc., but it also handles multi-tasking and general operation better. And when I say handles it better, I mean from an end-user's perspective, not from a resource use perspective.


I was thinking in terms of that too, albeit you don't get the 64-bit extentions and such and are limited to 4 GB addressing. (well more like 3.25 GB)
Besides it sounded like you were saying 7 was the best windows for its time...

The addressing probably being the greatest limiting factor, otherwise XP-32 (or 2k with adequate drivers) could be preferable for up-to-date platforms. (for gaming in XP, you're limited to DirectX-9 though)

It's a trade-off, but in the context of 4 GB systems, a 2-3 GB XP system with comparable up-to-date software and hardware could still have more resources available than Vista/7. For 32-bit vista/7 it's not even really a questions of which one is more efficient and useful. (I think i tmight even have been worth the trouble/cost of putting XP on my laptop rather than sticking with Vista-32, in hindsight -it's about a year and a half old now)

Vista 32 does seem to have solved memory leaking, but with an idle usage of ~700-800 MB (after stripping down and optimizing -with some help from my dad) compared to ~300 MB for XP SP3 with firewall/AV running (far less for SP1 -not much different for SP2), it's hardly worth it. (you'd have to run XP for weeks at a time without rebooting to match that)

Vista/7 seems no more user friendly than XP either, some improvements, but other trade-offs.

Again, I'm not sure about Windows XP Professional x64 Edition (NOT Windows XP 64-bit Edition, which was itanium only and dropped in 2005), but it may be a better option in some respects too. (though it does share the same incompatibility issues of 64-bit Vista/7) I'm unsure of DirectX-10/11 though, either if they work on XP x64 or 32-bit vista/7.

I'm sure there will come a point when this is no longer true though. (like when 8+ GB machines are cheap/common as mid/low end systems)



it actually does apply forces in the right places, just not enough to prevent the chip from desoldering itself or to hold the heatsink on firmly enough to cool it. And, again, the inadequate size of the heatsink is the main reason Ah, I'd gotten the impression that the clamps put unnecessary tension on the board.



Oh, and Apple computers can use PC mice and keyboards, just putting that out there. Yes, but there are keys missing on PC keyboards vs MAC boards (and vice versa).



Also, I like the Mac keyboard as I prefer the "snick snick" tightness of laptop keys over the clunkiness of traditional keyboards.

I like good, sturdy, smooth, but short through keyboards. Some laptops are OK, like the HP I'm using now (though the keys caps jiggle a little), but I hate the cheap, stubby chiclet feel of the new iMACs and MACbooks. (I liked the keyboards iMACs had some 4+ years ago)
It's a bit PITA since they're standard on all our shool's MACs... (those mice are frustrating too, having 2 button clicks with one solid shell is a neat gimmick, but it gets annoying FAST, I'll take my tactile response, thankyou)

As for OS X, you have to use it alot to really appreciate it. If you just passingly use it every once in a while at school, you probably aren't getting the most from it.
Last semester I had a digital video editing class, so I spent several hours a week working on the things (using Final Cut Pro for editing, some Quock Time Pro for exporting, several things online for finding music clips, mainly with firefox, -then some other school work in spare time), TBH the OS was fine, the interface was fine (had to get used to closing a window not quitting the program though) I got REALLY tired of the keyboard though (mouse was a bit annoying, but less so after I disabled the "squeeze" buttons -I normally grip the mouse there constantly)


You probably also have restrictions that keep you from accessing parts of the OS if you're using it at school. I remember in high school they had this shit called "Mac Manager" that turned a great Mac computer into a total lump of shit, which just gave mac haters even more ammo and made them stick their fingers even deeper into their ears.
True, though I don't think that program was used. We usually didn't have to bother with anything necessitating such access anyway.
In High School iirc there was a bit more freedom on our G4 eMACs (ca 2004), at least while I was there -couldn't install things without administrator access, just like a "low privilege" account on XP, no special manager, just normal limited accounts, like I used to have our home PC -and my brother still does -the other difference being user accounts were on a network server, not a particular machine)

One obvious difference was the ability to freely select a permanent desktop theme, resolution, and wallpaper without it being reset the next time you logged in. (which was the case for my video class) Heh, at one point some student (I assume) had access to an administrator account and installed the Halo demo which then proliferated through the network resulting in a lot of LAN halo gaming. ;) (I assume they've put a stop to that by now -though still tons of online games -ie WoW- according to my brother -a current sophomore)

Again, I don't have any huge complaints, I just didn't see any substantial advantage over windows. (even in terms of reliability BSOD meed spinning wheel of doom -actually I never had much of a problem with crashing on my XP machine, thrashing perhaps -mainly due to horribly inefficient websites- though my HDD was dying towards the end too -I think the bearings were going)

[Metal_Sonic]

This is honestly all I see when some people post around here. I think there are a handful of members around here with an eye on that Pulitzer.

I'd rather have members post long winded posts that contribute than post shitty images just to pad dat dere post count.

[MrMatthews]

Both irritate the crap out of me, honestly. I just don't think anyone around here should be allowed to post stuff that doesn't interest me.

[Metal_Sonic]

Shit that doesn't interest me.

http://i47.tinypic.com/kbas9l.jpg
http://www.bestweekever.tv/bwe/images/2009/11/DIDNT-READ-LOL.gif
http://i47.tinypic.com/2d7u32e.gif
http://img638.imageshack.us/img638/4282/whatwhat.gif
http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/8109/140xhqg3129111.gif

[17daysolderthannes]

I'd rather have members post long winded posts that contribute than post shitty images just to pad dat dere post count.

YOU HATE YOURSELF!?

y8Kyi0WNg40

[OldSchool]

:fit::furious::horse::end::offtopic::ban::t:

j/k

XP's more than fine (and alot better than Vista), especially at the present since many programs haven't been optimized for Windows 7 yet (bug fixes as well as performance).

Back to Wii VC: Ripoff Ripoff Ripoff, the end.

XP is 'the' Gaming OS. I've NEVER seen anyone install as many games as I have on any other OS (not even on XP, lol) from as wide a range as me with the same success ratio. Vista = epic failure. I've been praying that 7 would take XPs place, but I heard the XP feature = fail. :(





Wii VC rocks... I've picked up 13 quality titles for WAY less than it would have cost to grab them in physical form.

2 Neo Geo games... lol, I won't even go there... we all know how much that shite costs.

4 TG16 games... they're all $20+ games I think, and the system is $50+, and the stupid thing is RF only (was the MAIN reason I decided not to mess with a TG)

Splatterhouse 2 and MUSHA both of which are insanely priced cost me next to nothing.

Final Fight 2 & 3 for SNES which are retardedly priced cost me next to nothing.


And some proprietary games from Nintendo. Gradius/Contra/Castlevania Rebirth versions - and they ROCK!!!!
I wanted to get the Master Blaster remake, but the damn thing doesn't work with the Classic Controller so I'm passing on it for now.

All that's left is Megaman 9 & 10 after Nintendo explains this "extra content will cost extra points" nonsense. I wanna make sure that if I buy them at $10, I'm getting the entire game and not half the game or some BS.


VC used the way I've used it has been fantastic.

[InternalPrimate]

Both irritate the crap out of me, honestly. I just don't think anyone around here should be allowed to post stuff that doesn't interest me.

*looks at various Munn pics and IP mini reviews*
You got something to say to me Matthews?!

[Melf]

What's with the Off-Topic policing lately? I don't think any members have been complaining (unless they're doing it to you via PM) and it's been like this for as long as I've been here. Is it just that you're getting tired of reading threads and going "OMGWTFBBQ!?" as it steers off into chaos? Please don't become an on-topic Nazi and start warning/banning people and turn this forum into...just about every other forum on the internet.


I'm getting tired of coming into a thread about a specific topic and reading page after page of something else entirely. It's like this with every single thread lately, and what pisses me off the most is that people are derailing threads to talk about shit THAT ALREADY HAVE THEIR OWN THREADS.

I'm not trying to be an on-topic Nazi, but I have no choice when people are incapable of maintaining a discussion without going off on a tangent about stuff that already has a place for discussion. Is it so hard to simply post in the right thread? I think other forums become Nazi-like because people keep derailing threads.

Look at this thread right here. It went off track and started talking about PCs (again). I ask for it to be brought back on-topic, and the derailing continues. I don't understand why, when a simple use of the search function offers plenty of computer-related threads already running, like these:

- Computer technology advancements (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10995&highlight=windows)
- XP or Vista (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3507&highlight=windows)
- Snow Leopard ()S 10.6) vs. Windows 7 (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8997&highlight=windows)
- Post Your Computer Specs (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5870&highlight=windows)

It took me all of 5 minutes to search for those. It's really not that hard to stay on-topic, and I don't really care what topic is discussed, so long as it stays in the right thread.

ON TOPIC: Old School, don't pass over the new Blaster Master. It doesn't work with the classic controller (sucks), but the game rocks. I got it on launch day and really enjoyed it. I has that classic BM feel and looks and plays really well. Check out some Youtube videos before you write it off completely.

[MrMatthews]

*looks at various Munn pics and IP mini reviews*
You got something to say to me Matthews?!

I can't remember the last time you posted a mini review, TBH.

*reads Melf's post*

Uh...um...virtual console! Reggie's my hero!

[Zoltor]

I'm getting tired of coming into a thread about a specific topic and reading page after page of something else entirely. It's like this with every single thread lately, and what pisses me off the most is that people are derailing threads to talk about shit THAT ALREADY HAVE THEIR OWN THREADS.

I'm not trying to be an on-topic Nazi, but I have no choice when people are incapable of maintaining a discussion without going off on a tangent about stuff that already has a place for discussion. Is it so hard to simply post in the right thread? I think other forums become Nazi-like because people keep derailing threads.

Look at this thread right here. It went off track and started talking about PCs (again). I ask for it to be brought back on-topic, and the derailing continues. I don't understand why, when a simple use of the search function offers plenty of computer-related threads already running, like these:

- Computer technology advancements (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10995&highlight=windows)
- XP or Vista (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3507&highlight=windows)
- Snow Leopard ()S 10.6) vs. Windows 7 (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8997&highlight=windows)
- Post Your Computer Specs (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5870&highlight=windows)

It took me all of 5 minutes to search for those. It's really not that hard to stay on-topic, and I don't really care what topic is discussed, so long as it stays in the right thread.

ON TOPIC: Old School, don't pass over the new Blaster Master. It doesn't work with the classic controller (sucks), but the game rocks. I got it on launch day and really enjoyed it. I has that classic BM feel and looks and plays really well. Check out some Youtube videos before you write it off completely.



Omg yea, it annoys me so much that you can't use the CC, because aside from having to use crappy controllers, It's an amazing game(and what a game to start with, for Sunsoft's return to the industry).

[Melf]

Now they need to make a sequel to Journey to Silius.

[OldSchool]

ON TOPIC: Old School, don't pass over the new Blaster Master. It doesn't work with the classic controller (sucks), but the game rocks. I got it on launch day and really enjoyed it. I has that classic BM feel and looks and plays really well. Check out some Youtube videos before you write it off completely.

I'm a 'looong'time fan of the original (which I have). I never beat it as a kid, and haven't loaded it up on my NES since I got it months ago.

I've seen vids of this new one and it looks amaaaaazing.


BUT WHY do I have to use the bloody uncomfortable stock Wii controller? WHY?
I HATE the stock Wii controller turned sideways. It wears on my left thumb in under 20 mins everytime.

Was playing Wario last night (the Wii one, shake it) and the game is amazing in every way, except the controller sucks.


Why can't Nintendo make a Classic controller with the same functionality as the stock Wii controller:confused: I'd pay $50 for that.

[InternalPrimate]

It is pretty odd that you can't use the classic controller on the new Blaster Master. That's really an oversight by Sunsoft rather than Nintendo though. As far as I know, the VC version works with the classic controller. I'm assuming that since all NES games are supposed to work with that controller.

While we're on the topic, when is Nintendo going to release an OS update that allows for classic controller support of GC games? I know that's a bit of a pipe dream, but it would be nice to be able to put the Wavebird away. Less clutter equals a happier gamer :)

[Knuckle Duster]

While we're on the topic, when is Nintendo going to release an OS update that allows for classic controller support of GC games? I know that's a bit of a pipe dream, but it would be nice to be able to put the Wavebird away. Less clutter equals a happier gamer :)

Never. The Wii doesn't use an OS behind the software it runs.
When it boots a disc, the 'home menu' itself is run from the disc, when it boots a Gamecube game, it runs directly off the hardware. This is why you can't access the home menu, shut the system down remotely, etc.

It's actually impossible for them to implement.

[InternalPrimate]

I guess that's the necessary sacrifice for perfect (excluding wacky accessories) backwards compatibility. I do love my wave bird, it's just so much simpler to have one "traditional" controller lying around.

[Knuckle Duster]

I wouldn't say it's a necessary sacrifice. More like lazy, cheap and short sighted. They were pumping their conceptual paradigm shift, while disregarding practicality.
This is why they suffer with a lack of functionality, and security compared to the competition in this generation.

[OldSchool]

It is pretty odd that you can't use the classic controller on the new Blaster Master. That's really an oversight by Sunsoft rather than Nintendo though. As far as I know, the VC version works with the classic controller. I'm assuming that since all NES games are supposed to work with that controller.

While we're on the topic, when is Nintendo going to release an OS update that allows for classic controller support of GC games? I know that's a bit of a pipe dream, but it would be nice to be able to put the Wavebird away. Less clutter equals a happier gamer :)

Well, I went to buy it and it said it was only compatible with the normal Wii controller so I didn't touch it. Nintendo confirmed with me today that it only works on the stock Wii controller. :| Giant pantload.

That'd be pretty cool, but would render the controllers I bought for GC gaming useless, lol. I like the GC controller for everything EXCEPT for fighting games.


Never. The Wii doesn't use an OS behind the software it runs.
When it boots a disc, the 'home menu' itself is run from the disc, when it boots a Gamecube game, it runs directly off the hardware. This is why you can't access the home menu, shut the system down remotely, etc.

It's actually impossible for them to implement.

oh... bummer :?


I wouldn't say it's a necessary sacrifice. More like lazy, cheap and short sighted. They were pumping their conceptual paradigm shift, while disregarding practicality.
This is why they suffer with a lack of functionality, and security compared to the competition in this generation.

What do you mean specifically?

[InternalPrimate]

Are we talking about the same Blaster Master old school? There is a VC version that is basically identical to the NES original (but with one added bonus, courtesy Vic Ireland), and then a reimagining/sequel WiiWare game. I may be off, but I can't imagine the NES original doesn't allow for CC support.

[kool kitty89]

Never. The Wii doesn't use an OS behind the software it runs.
When it boots a disc, the 'home menu' itself is run from the disc, when it boots a Gamecube game, it runs directly off the hardware. This is why you can't access the home menu, shut the system down remotely, etc.

What about going into the home menu when NOT booting a disc?
Plus they could (and have iirc) implemented updated on-disc OSs for newer games.

And what do you mean by shut the system down remotely?

[Knuckle Duster]

What about going into the home menu when NOT booting a disc?
Plus they could (and have iirc) implemented updated on-disc OSs for newer games.


It's hard to explain in detail, nor am I qualified to do so since I've only 'glanced' through the details of it. Basically there's no 'centralized' menu behind all games, they each run their own revision off the disc/download whatever. That's what you see when you hit the 'Home' button in-game.

On the Wii itself, each revision of the updated software 'download', doesn't overwrite the older revision, they're all still in memory, still exploitable/bootable/whatever.


And what do you mean by shut the system down remotely?

Power button on the Wii-mote to shut it off. Gamecube won't recognize any of it, so neither does Wii when running Cube games. :p

[17daysolderthannes]

Power button on the Wii-mote to shut it off. Gamecube won't recognize any of it, so neither does Wii when running Cube games. :p

are you aware that the power button on the Wiimote doesn't turn it off, it just puts it into "sleep mode" where it gets super hot because the fans don't run? To fully turn it off, you have to push the button on the console and hold it until it turns red (not yellow like with the Wiimote). I've seen people reporting read errors and game crashes from leaving it in the amber-light "sleep" mode rather than turning it all the way off and once they started turning it all the way off, it worked fine.

[kool kitty89]

are you aware that the power button on the Wiimote doesn't turn it off, it just puts it into "sleep mode" where it gets super hot because the fans don't run? To fully turn it off, you have to push the button on the console and hold it until it turns red (not yellow like with the Wiimote). I've seen people reporting read errors and game crashes from leaving it in the amber-light "sleep" mode rather than turning it all the way off and once they started turning it all the way off, it worked fine.

Sleep mode sucks... iirc it didn't even exist early on or could be disabled. (I remember single push to red light -if not with the remotes as well)

IMO stand-by shouldn't exist on the wii or should be optional. (you should be able to choose when it updates and such) If it needs an update it should also be able to boot from being off and do the update. (that's what PCs do... -well for automatic updates and tune-ups -if you enable them)

[OldSchool]

Are we talking about the same Blaster Master old school? There is a VC version that is basically identical to the NES original (but with one added bonus, courtesy Vic Ireland), and then a reimagining/sequel WiiWare game. I may be off, but I can't imagine the NES original doesn't allow for CC support.

We're talking about the new "rebirth" one... not the VC version of the NES game.

[Zoltor]

About the whole unneeded sleep mode crap, I just unhook the power plug from the back, and by all means, omg "ALWAYS!!!" take the batteries out of the wiiremote when not using the wii, otherwise it will eat your batteries.

[PimpUigi]

Anyone who gets into Virtual Console IMHO should check out the controller adapters on www.raphnet-tech.com

They have tons of different ones, and even a fully working Genesis to Wii adapter.

Windows Vista = Windows 7
The only difference from a users perspective is the task bar.

[Zoltor]

Anyone who gets into Virtual Console IMHO should check out the controller adapters on www.raphnet-tech.com

They have tons of different ones, and even a fully working Genesis to Wii adapter.

Windows Vista = Windows 7
The only difference from a users perspective is the task bar.


Kind of expensive, but wow, they are awesome, didn't know companies actually made such controllers.

[MrMatthews]

About the whole unneeded sleep mode crap, I just unhook the power plug from the back, and by all means, omg "ALWAYS!!!" take the batteries out of the wiiremote when not using the wii, otherwise it will eat your batteries.

I take it one step further and pack everything back in the box between play sessions.

[OldSchool]

I take it one step further and pack everything back in the box between play sessions.

Lol.... I don't put my systems up in their boxes, but I do put them up when I'm not playing them (it drives my GF crazy, lol).

All of my stuff stays dust free though. ;)


I've tried explaining to her but she doesn't get it... in my own weird way, "having" to set my systems up for each session gets me in the mood to sit down and have fun... almost like a prep of some kind.




I'm weird

[Diosoth]

My opinion? Personally I'm not a huge nut over "original hardware", I'll take what I can get and won't pay high prices if cheaper exists. I'm all for modern re-releases and compilations especially if their prices can beat aftermarket by a wide margin(FF7 on PSN for $10 competing with everyone and anyone who thinks the PS1 copy is worth $50 or more when it's a very common title).

The downside is I prefer store released discs. I'm not a fan of DLC or any other gaming in which my dollars don't buy a physical item. I can't sell it off if I get tired of it or need emergency cash, it's a purchase you are stuck with. I know that's how the companies want it but to hell with their profit margins, I need to worry about myself in this transaction. I'm sorry if used games "hurt them" but customers do have SOME rights. I'm also not wowed too much by online network prices these days. $8 for a Genesis title when Ultimate Genesis Collection was $30 for 20 games? There's a massive price difference in that regard.

Though I've noticed Xbox Live stuff getting actual retail discs, mostly Konami. It is nice to see SOTN on a retail disc again instead of relying on downloads.

There are other + and - sides. + you can often get better video quality(the Genessis can not do s-video or component without mods), the - is lonegr load and wait times(turn on an old console vs modern console boot times, sorting through menus, load times...)

I think the DLC method needs an overhaul. If a disc release costs $1.33 per game then the download should not be $8. Offer a minor refund policy IF I decide I want to change my mind within a reasonable time(say... 2-3 days after purchase, 50% refund if I hate it).

[OldSchool]

My opinion? Personally I'm not a huge nut over "original hardware", I'll take what I can get and won't pay high prices if cheaper exists. I'm all for modern re-releases and compilations especially if their prices can beat aftermarket by a wide margin(FF7 on PSN for $10 competing with everyone and anyone who thinks the PS1 copy is worth $50 or more when it's a very common title).

The downside is I prefer store released discs. I'm not a fan of DLC or any other gaming in which my dollars don't buy a physical item. I can't sell it off if I get tired of it or need emergency cash, it's a purchase you are stuck with. I know that's how the companies want it but to hell with their profit margins, I need to worry about myself in this transaction. I'm sorry if used games "hurt them" but customers do have SOME rights. I'm also not wowed too much by online network prices these days. $8 for a Genesis title when Ultimate Genesis Collection was $30 for 20 games? There's a massive price difference in that regard.

Though I've noticed Xbox Live stuff getting actual retail discs, mostly Konami. It is nice to see SOTN on a retail disc again instead of relying on downloads.

There are other + and - sides. + you can often get better video quality(the Genessis can not do s-video or component without mods), the - is lonegr load and wait times(turn on an old console vs modern console boot times, sorting through menus, load times...)

I think the DLC method needs an overhaul. If a disc release costs $1.33 per game then the download should not be $8. Offer a minor refund policy IF I decide I want to change my mind within a reasonable time(say... 2-3 days after purchase, 50% refund if I hate it).

Fantastic post imo... well said, sir.

[kool kitty89]

I've seen FFVII pretty cheap at thrift stores. Often the case is a bit messed up though, and in the case of some combo compilations, some of the extra discs are missing, but they go for like $5, so even if you're missing one of the FFVII discs, you could buy part of it and get the other part for another $3-6...
IMO a very nice (cart only) copy of FFIII(VI) for $3 was pretty good though. (I'm not that big of a FF fan, that was actually my first time playing though, but I've liked some other RPGs more)

Oh, and a quick search turned this up: http://www.beindependent.com/rel/v2_viewupc.php?storenr=286&upc=71171941632&affnr=-2421&lowestUsed=1




Windows Vista = Windows 7
The only difference from a users perspective is the task bar.
7 uses somewhat less memory (the most obvious efficiency gain) and will thus be less likely to thrash if nothing else.

[17daysolderthannes]

Lol.... I don't put my systems up in their boxes, but I do put them up when I'm not playing them (it drives my GF crazy, lol).

All of my stuff stays dust free though. ;)


I've tried explaining to her but she doesn't get it... in my own weird way, "having" to set my systems up for each session gets me in the mood to sit down and have fun... almost like a prep of some kind.




I'm weird

I'm the opposite. Sometimes I won't play just because I don't feel like tracking down the game, etc. It's not laziness, it's just disgust of tedium. When I move into my own place in a few months and optimize my layout, I probably won't have that problem anymore.

[OldSchool]

I'm the opposite. Sometimes I won't play just because I don't feel like tracking down the game, etc. It's not laziness, it's just disgust of tedium. When I move into my own place in a few months and optimize my layout, I probably won't have that problem anymore.

I hear you on that... when I get a new tv/entertainment center: my Console setup is going to be revolutionized, lol. ;)
It's ghetto atm.

[Smii]

I'm the opposite. Sometimes I won't play just because I don't feel like tracking down the game, etc. It's not laziness, it's just disgust of tedium.

Inactivity due to "disgust of tedium" is still basically laziness - it's just angrier, haughtier laziness. :)

I do know what you mean, though. I've got a backlog of DC and PS2 games I've still never / rarely played, just because I don't have the things set up all the time any more - they've been sort of in storage for a few months (which involves a small stack of boxes and stuff) and so when time for gaming comes round, I can never be arsed. (I've lost count of the number of times I've played games in Fusion etc because I can't be bothered to go and hunt for a particular cart, too :/)

Someday I'll move into a place with enough space to set out my consoles and games collection properly. Sigh. :P