Could cartridges make a comeback in modern VG systems?

[tz101]

I am under the belief that cartridges lost out to CD/DVD media due mainly to manufacturing cost and storage concerns. With that in mind, I am wondering what would keep a video game system from using cartridge format for its games? I recently saw 8GB USB flash sticks for around $10 so it would be reasonable to assume that video games selling for approximately $50 new would be profitable using flash memory storage. The storage would even be slightly more than is currently available on a DVD disc. What is the roadblock to this becoming a reality?

[Zoltor]

I am under the belief that cartridges lost out to CD/DVD media due mainly to manufacturing cost and storage concerns. With that in mind, I am wondering what would keep a video game system from using cartridge format for its games? I recently saw 8GB USB flash sticks for around $10 so it would be reasonable to assume that video games selling for approximately $50 new would be profitable using flash memory storage. The storage would even be slightly more than is currently available on a DVD disc. What is the roadblock to this becoming a reality?

Indeed, infact It's cheap now to use carts(nvm the fact, it would cost publishers even less then that, as they'll be getting the cart at wholesale prices, if not even cheaper then that), and omg insanely cheaper then Blue-Rays. The smallest things don't damage them...


Hmm, It's now obvious why companies are still using CD type media, they hope you'll end up having to buy another copy or two, that's the only logical reason, because space, and quality aren't issues anymore, that's for sure.

[GohanX]

Sure, 8 gigs of memory is $10, but a DVD still only costs a couple of pennies to press. Its great for portables, though.

Didn't we just have this thread?

[Zoltor]

Sure, 8 gigs of memory is $10, but a DVD still only costs a couple of pennies to press. Its great for portables, though.

Didn't we just have this thread?

Lol yea, I could've sworn there was another thread on this topic as well.

PS. When you are buying stuff from Mexico, everything is only a few pennies, hell this country doesn't even produce the DvDs for movies(yes the movie capital of the world, doesn't even produce the DvDs for their own movies).

[Dant]

Not just that, but the next logical move, it would seem, after optical media is digital distribution and having both the hardware and software on the server's end a la Onlive.

[Lopson]

It doesn't really matter if the games can be distributed in this format or not, since in the future, pretty much everything will completely depend on online connectivity (I don't think this'll be a step forward, but that's the way things will be).

[Da_Shocker]

Blu-ray can go up to 50GB while we only have 16GB usb drives right now.

[Zoltor]

It doesn't really matter if the games can be distributed in this format or not, since in the future, pretty much everything will completely depend on online connectivity (I don't think this'll be a step forward, but that's the way things will be).

If that day ever comes, I will never buy a "new" game ever again(buying older games, that actually exist as a item, is a different story though). Also if companies do that, and charge more then 5$(the amount of money they spent on the game is meaningless in this case, if they aren't actually selling anything, so I don't want to hear developers cry, because their greed stabbed them selves in the foot), that will be the end of the gaming industry.

PS. Where did ******* developers get the idea they own anything besides the code for the game, and the copy rights for the char/name of the game, among other such things?


This is getting as bad as the housing industry(Condos anyone or apartments in NYC).

[Flygon]

Blu-ray can go up to 50GB while we only have 16GB usb drives right now.
Ahem (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/New-USB-2-0-64GB-Flash-Memory-Pen-Stick-Thumb-Drive-/120589546648?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_USB_Flash_Drives&hash=item1c13b27498#ht_979wt_1138).

[Zoltor]

Ahem (http://cgi.ebay.com.au/New-USB-2-0-64GB-Flash-Memory-Pen-Stick-Thumb-Drive-/120589546648?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_USB_Flash_Drives&hash=item1c13b27498#ht_979wt_1138).

Wow, memory is cheaper then I thought, that's pretty damn cheasp as well.

[Xeniczone]

@Da_Shocker: Actually we have 64gig memory cards, and because game carts don't have to be the size of a thumbdrive, they can easily pack a few of them together and make 128+ gigs of space. But it always comes down the price and what the consumer wants. 128gig SSD hard drives cost over 100 dollars. Even with whole sale, selling a game at the normal 50-60 dollar price range, they wouldn't make a profit.

BluRays are 50gig and they are working on 100gig blurays, which costs <1 dollar to make.

I don't think digital download will ever take off. For two reasons.

1. Consumers aren't stupid. Buying something digitally means that it can easily be lost since the ability to keep the software is based on the machine holding it. If the machine is lost, stolen, breaks down, or anything you not only loose the machine you loose the software. Plus the software can't be sold. Once you buy it, you have it for life, and it also ruins any chance of buying used. How are future generations going to play it also. Remember Sonic Eraser? It was only availible on Sega Channel which is long gone. If it wasn't for the rom being ripped most people wouldn't have a clue what it is or played.

2. People like me have Satellite internet. Since our only options are Satellite Broadband or Dial-up. Which makes stuff like OnLive and digital download useless. Digital Download can't be down because most games weight in at 5+gigs. With Satellite you can only download 500mbs a day. OnLive can't be used because satellites are so far apart you end up with a latency (ping) of 1000-1500ms. Then sending 720p video over the internet would again max out the bandwidth.

Digital game are horse shit and I hope they never take off.

[Zoltor]

@Da_Shocker: Actually we have 64gig memory cards, and because game carts don't have to be the size of a thumbdrive, they can easily pack a few of them together and make 128+ gigs of space. But it always comes down the price and what the consumer wants. 128gig SSD hard drives cost over 100 dollars. Even with whole sale, selling a game at the normal 50-60 dollar price range, they wouldn't make a profit.

BluRays are 50gig and they are working on 100gig blurays, which costs <1 dollar to make.

I don't think digital download will ever take off. For two reasons.

1. Consumers aren't stupid. Buying something digitally means that it can easily be lost since the ability to keep the software is based on the machine holding it. If the machine is lost, stolen, breaks down, or anything you not only loose the machine you loose the software. Plus the software can't be sold. Once you buy it, you have it for life, and it also ruins any chance of buying used. How are future generations going to play it also. Remember Sonic Eraser? It was only availible on Sega Channel which is long gone. If it wasn't for the rom being ripped most people wouldn't have a clue what it is or played.

2. People like me have Satellite internet. Since our only options are Satellite Broadband or Dial-up. Which makes stuff like OnLive and digital download useless. Digital Download can't be down because most games weight in at 5+gigs. With Satellite you can only download 500mbs a day. OnLive can't be used because satellites are so far apart you end up with a latency (ping) of 1000-1500ms. Then sending 720p video over the internet would again max out the bandwidth.

Digital game are horse shit and I hope they never take off.

Exacly.

PS. Sonic Eraser, never even heard of that game(proof of concept confirmed).

[QuickSciFi]

Well. Once again, flash cards are not the same as gaming cartridges; but they sure have become less expensive than optical media nowadays. Not necessarily because of the manufacturing cost, but because of the time it takes to simply load-up one game into it. Add to that the fact that a tiny micro-sd memory card can hold more than a blue ray disc, and you've got yourself a winner. ;)

So, yes and no, to the original question, imo. Cartridges, sadly, will never make a come-back. But flash-cards, on the other hand, in the form of long-lasting, fast-loading, physically-attractive media may just take-over the future of hard-copy, distribution gaming. They started with the SMS and the TG-16, died-out for about 15 years, then came back with the DS (and still to come with the future 3DS). SD memory cards and Sony memory sticks are being used in consoles/handhelds also. I can see this trend happening (and, gosh, I hope it does :D).

[Hiarcs]

Yes of course.

[Genesis#1FanGirl]

The day all games are purchased by downloading them is the end of video games!!!!!!!!!!! lol well maybe not the end but its going to suck butt :P

[Hiarcs]

The day all games are purchased by downloading them is the end of video games!!!!!!!!!!! lol well maybe not the end but its going to suck butt :P

I cant disagree with that, i had more "joy" when purchasing cartridges instead of cds.

[kool kitty89]

SD goes up to 32 GB and SDXC is limited to 2 TB (not sure what the largest available are, at least 64 GB -but they're not cheap).

Downloadable media can be backed up by proof of purchase an logs tied to an account (email or account with a specific service like Steam), thus, lost content can be replaced unless the account itself becomes corrupt (which has other issues -especially for email).
That's how most of our Wiiware games are, deleted but reserved for re-load (eventually they'll get backed-up to SD -for the case if/when Nintendo drops the serivice).

In some ways that's better than physical media: how often will damaged games get replaced for free (outside of factory defects)? With DL stuff it's no problem in terms of cost. (jut a bit of bandwidth)

There are other disadvantages, but if DRM keeps going the convoluted path it does, those may go out the window too. (except the simple limitation of access and bandwidth for home users and large games -more than a couple hundred MB or less for some can be problematic even now- though things like kiosks could address that)

I don't really like the idea of DL only content, but I also don't like the idea of where physical media is tending.




Well. Once again, flash cards are not the same as gaming cartridges; but they sure have become less expensive than optical media nowadays. Not necessarily because of the manufacturing cost, but because of the time it takes to simply load-up one game into it. Add to that the fact that a tiny micro-sd memory card can hold more than a blue ray disc, and you've got yourself a winner. ;)
Huh Optical media is very fast to manufacture on a large scale (pressing discs is nothing like burning writable media), in that same vein (on a large scale) mask roms should be considerably cheaper/faster to produce than burning to PROMs or flash memory. (though pressing optical discs is far cheaper and more flexible to increase/decrease production rates than solid state media -and much less waste to dump overstock or error batches -or add software revisions rather than redoing the mask just new pressing plates would bee needed)

[QuickSciFi]

The day all games are purchased by downloading them is the end of video games!!!!!!!!!!! lol well maybe not the end but its going to suck butt :P

Hear hear. If that does happen, I predict that generation to be the last in console gaming. :(

[gamevet]

Well. Once again, flash cards are not the same as gaming cartridges; but they sure have become less expensive than optical media nowadays. Not necessarily because of the manufacturing cost, but because of the time it takes to simply load-up one game into it. Add to that the fact that a tiny micro-sd memory card can hold more than a blue ray disc, and you've got yourself a winner. ;)

So, yes and no, to the original question, imo. Cartridges, sadly, will never make a come-back. But flash-cards, on the other hand, in the form of long-lasting, fast-loading, physically-attractive media may just take-over the future of hard-copy, distribution gaming. They started with the SMS and the TG-16, died-out for about 15 years, then came back with the DS (and still to come with the future 3DS). SD memory cards and Sony memory sticks are being used in consoles/handhelds also. I can see this trend happening (and, gosh, I hope it does :D).

Flash memory may be cheap, but does the same apply for static memory?

[ki_atsushi]

Flash memory may be cheap, but does the same apply for static memory?

Well, Nintendo DS games are usually around $30, so static memory chips couldn't be that expensive to produce.

[Xeniczone]

SD goes up to 32 GB and SDXC is limited to 2 TB (not sure what the largest available are, at least 64 GB -but they're not cheap).

Downloadable media can be backed up by proof of purchase an logs tied to an account (email or account with a specific service like Steam), thus, lost content can be replaced unless the account itself becomes corrupt (which has other issues -especially for email).
That's how most of our Wiiware games are, deleted but reserved for re-load (eventually they'll get backed-up to SD -for the case if/when Nintendo drops the serivice).

In some ways that's better than physical media: how often will damaged games get replaced for free (outside of factory defects)? With DL stuff it's no problem in terms of cost. (jut a bit of bandwidth)

There are other disadvantages, but if DRM keeps going the convoluted path it does, those may go out the window too. (except the simple limitation of access and bandwidth for home users and large games -more than a couple hundred MB or less for some can be problematic even now- though things like kiosks could address that)

I don't really like the idea of DL only content, but I also don't like the idea of where physical media is tending.

I generally say the benefits are outweighed by the problems. Yeah getting the media replaced for free is great, but would they continue this trend? In the music industry, if you digitally download something then loose it, you don't get to download it again. This is because music companies require a loyalty for every download that takes place. So generally they don't allow a second download.

Then of course you loose all the things that your used to in todays gameing:
-Taking your new game over to a friends house, gone.
-Collectibility gone (have shelf after shelf of digital downloads :D )
-Renting, gone.
-....

List goes on and on, but I would like to make an example of this with memory cards. Using internal memory in place of memory cards isn't recent. It started with the Sega CD, Sega Saturn, xBox and goes on today with the 360, PS3, and Wii.

What did we loose with this digital internal form of memory? Remember with the PS2, N64, Dreamcast, and a few others. When you would play the game at home save it on your memory card, take the memory card over to a friends house and pop it into there game console and you guys could play 2 player using your own stats and personalized characters.

That was rather recent stuff, yet not many people remember it. Hell the Playstation 2 is still on the market.

[gamevet]

Well, Nintendo DS games are usually around $30, so static memory chips couldn't be that expensive to produce.

Those aren't exactly in the gig range though.

[Zoltor]

Those aren't exactly in the gig range though.



That's actually not true, a bunch of DS games are like a gig or so(infact probally most of the games are over a gig), and I forgot what game it was, but a game that came out not so long ago/a game that is coming out soon is gonna be 2 gigs(which will be the first 2 gig DS game).

[TmEE]

I've not seen 2GigaByte NDS games, but I've seen 2GigaBit ones...

[AD2101]

... and omg insanely cheaper then Blue-Rays. The smallest things don't damage them...

You haven't had much experience with Blu-Ray discs then I suppose. Those things are the Tiger II tanks of the disc world..

[Elusive]

Cartridges will never 'make a comeback'; the only reason they're still popular in handheld machines is their portability and peoples' illogical need for a tangible product.

Optical media can be mass-produced on a vast scale using simple raw materials; ship a lorry-load of blank discs to a factory, have a machine stamp these discs with a disc image, lorry-load of game discs departs to shops. Digital distribution cuts out the manufacturing process entirely, as it's all downloaded from a server farm somewhere. Cartridges, by design, are more complex and thus have a more intricate, expensive manufacturing process.

Might as well ask whether 8-track tapes are likely to take off again any time soon, in the age of the iPod.

[Zoltor]

You haven't had much experience with Blu-Ray discs then I suppose. Those things are the Tiger II tanks of the disc world..

Actually I have, sorry for the confussion, I should wrote that down better, but the second part of that was about CD teck in general(CDs, DvDs, and such), but yea, the Blue-Ray discs do seem to be pretty scratch resistant when comparing to all the other CD type media out there(I have a friend who really doesn't do a good job at taking care of his CDs in general, and we haven't had a issue with his Blue-Rays yet, and although I haven't taken a real close look, I don't recall there being any scratches either).

[gamevet]

I've not seen 2GigaByte NDS games, but I've seen 2GigaBit ones...

2 Gb of data wouldn't even cover the data needed to texture map a full game on a console. You'd need at least 6 GB for a decent game.

I believe the Metal Gear Solid 4 demo was well over 3 gigs.

[shinobimusashi]

Awesome thread, I was wondering about cartridges lately, and what the advantages/disadvantages, or physical appearance would look like in order to hold a modern video game.

i dont really like cd's/dvd's their just too fragile.

cassettes, and cartridges are the way too go.

[kool kitty89]

Flash memory may be cheap, but does the same apply for static memory?
I've already mentioned it several times, but I'd think that mask roms would be significantly cheaper than flash (or PROMs or EEPROMs, of course), at least on a large scale: but there's still the same limitations of production flexibility and revisions as ever due to the nature of masking.



Awesome thread, I was wondering about cartridges lately, and what the advantages/disadvantages, or physical appearance would look like in order to hold a modern video game.

i dont really like cd's/dvd's their just too fragile.

cassettes, and cartridges are the way too go.

Cassettes are FAR more vulnerable to degradation... (age, oxide flaking, and demagnatization)

Discs vs solid state media have trade-offs: you can leave disc in damp/wet (or otherwise corrosion inducing) conditions indefinitely, static electricity and power surges won't kill it, etc.
Disc scratches can often be repaired as can dirty/corroded cart contacts (sometimes requiring soldering), but in worst cases of either, not so much. (CDs are worse with the super thin top layer compared to sandwiched DVDs and such)

One of the best cases would be VCDHD: cheaper, thinner, tougher (high elasticity), more scratch resistant than DVDs and compatible with similar capacity. (and potential for expansion)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/VCDHD


Tiido, do you have any experience with VCDHD media? (given where you live and wiki mentioning its popularity in eastern Europe)

[TmEE]

I have never ever seen a VCDHD disc sold here... I don't work at a computer store either to get some bought to see what they're about

[kool kitty89]

I have never ever seen a VCDHD disc sold here... I don't work at a computer store either to get some bought to see what they're about

OK, Wiki only actually mentioned Russia, Ukrane, and Poland specifically. (nothing about the Baltic states or other regions)

[Hiarcs]

Yes, they can.

[the.importer]

The day all games are purchased by downloading them is the end of video games!!!!!!!!!!! lol well maybe not the end but its going to suck butt :P

I wouldn't mind carts or flash cards, but the day consoles go 100% digital downloads is the day I stopped purchasing consoles.

[Leathco]

I say yea, and even that its highly likely to see a return to this format. Its harder to rip a custom ported USB stick than to rip a DVD or a Blu-Ray, I definately see the consoles switching to a custom USB stick in the next 2 console generations as an attempt to fight piracy.

[Zoltor]

I say yea, and even that its highly likely to see a return to this format. Its harder to rip a custom ported USB stick than to rip a DVD or a Blu-Ray, I definately see the consoles switching to a custom USB stick in the next 2 console generations as an attempt to fight piracy.

Good point, yet another reason why carts are better(and it has to be a strong reason for the developers).

Then you have the SNES carts, talk about high security, Fort Knocks Isn't as secure. While they have been ripped, to this day, only one game has ever been made, that can bypass that damn lock out chip.

Lol, It's about time for Nintendo to let the cat out of the bag don't you think(so the Homebrew community can develop games), but anyway, I would love to see CDs try to pull that stuff off(which I'm pretty sure CDs can't).

[kool kitty89]

I say yea, and even that its highly likely to see a return to this format. Its harder to rip a custom ported USB stick than to rip a DVD or a Blu-Ray, I definately see the consoles switching to a custom USB stick in the next 2 console generations as an attempt to fight piracy.

That's not a good reason: simple physical barriers (proprietary connectors) are some of the easiest to get through, even more so that proprietary disc formats in some respects.

Other techniques aren't as capable as they once were either (proprietary lockout chips) and further add to cost. Added security to discs -both for the consoles reading them and those trying to rip the discs- are quite significant.
Look at how long the GC went untouched: and how far off many theories were about the format (discs reading backwards/outside in etc) when it tured out to be nothing more than standard DVD (mini DVD) with a rather clever lockout mechanism and encryption format. (the former limited to discs being able to be read on the console: so even if you managed to rip the discs, you wouldn't be able to burn copies without getting past the other roadblock -without software emulators as an alternative, which stall aren't there yet afik)



Good point, yet another reason why carts are better(and it has to be a strong reason for the developers).

Then you have the SNES carts, talk about high security, Fort Knocks Isn't as secure. While they have been ripped, to this day, only one game has ever been made, that can bypass that damn lock out chip.

Lol, It's about time for Nintendo to let the cat out of the bag don't you think(so the Homebrew community can develop games), but anyway, I would love to see CDs try to pull that stuff off(which I'm pretty sure CDs can't).

A couple games made it hell to rip the ROMs (I think a couple capcom games with enhancement chips), but the lockout mechanism on the SNES has several issues: I beleive they employ both a lock-out chip for authentication as well as a checksum/header (as the 7800, SMS, and Genesis do), as well as subsequent updates breaking some bypass methods.

There was a relatively simple way to get past that though, and 1 NES game did it too (Little Red Hood), with Noah's Ark 3D with lock-on cart. More a lack on interest in producing pirate games than lack of ability too. (and the fact that lock-on carts and pass-through circuitry defeat the purpose of cheap unlicensed/pirate games -and Nintendo licensing getting far more reasonable compared to all the BS devs had to put up with on the NES)

No JP/US region locking whatsoever though, just a simple physical barrier, so MUCH easier than dealing with region locked MD games. (PAL is another story though)

Now the N64 had no piracy/unlicensed games whatsoever, but given the PSX and Saturn, and the high cost of N64 carts, there's a pretty obvious reason... (and with the added wait Nintendo could have developed a superior secure optical format -either a good security system and/or proprietary/tweaked format -if not by 1996, at least soon after as an add-on ... but then they went with the DD in 1999!)