If you could only own ONE of these consoles...

[Genesis Knight]

Which would it be?

[Demonic Weasel]

The Saturn. Though I'd regret losing my DC the Saturn has better games in my opinion and games that are exculsively Saturn games. The DC and PS2 have more games on them that are on other systems and let us be frank, SF3 is god.

[Melf]

It'd be hard to lose my DC and Saturn, but I'd have to go with the PS2. Many of my favorite DC games have been ported to it, and I've played enough of my Saturn collection to death to not really miss it.

Plus, the PS2's library is larger than both the Saturn and DC's combined.

[redrum666]

It'd be hard to lose my DC and Saturn, but I'd have to go with the PS2. Many of my favorite DC games have been ported to it, and I've played enough of my Saturn collection to death to not really miss it.

Plus, the PS2's library is larger than both the Saturn and DC's combined.

yah but 90% of PS2 games suck so haveing a larger library not allways a good thing sonys known to let a lot of 3D crap games slip by in to there larger library games and good games get passed up by them ;)

[Joe Redifer]

I'd have to go with Saturn, as it has games I enjoy. PS2 and Dreamcast have a few enjoyable games, but I think maybe the Saturn edges it out. It's tough to choose between the Saturn and the DC because of Shenmue, though. Hmmmm... God damn it I want Shenmue!

[David J.]

Saturn, but ONLY because games are harder to find for it, and the cost.

Great games regardless.

[George Foreman]

I have to say Dreamcast because Toy Commander and Jet Grind Radio are on it(along with a few other games that I enjoy).

[j_factor]

I voted for Saturn. Then I thought that maybe I should've picked PS2 because of backwards compatibility, and the combined libraries of PSX and PS2 are better than Saturn by itself. But now I stand by my vote for Saturn, because the poll didn't say you couldn't own other systems too, so I could still own a PSX.

So yeah, Saturn. More worthwhile games than DC or PS2 IMO. Not that I don't like them or anything.

[Obviously]

I don't know, I'll have to go against majority opinion on this one. I really love my Dreamcast though my roommate has just started to get into Saturn collecting recently so this opinion may change in the next few months.

[Sega Saturn x]

Well my choice is pretty obvious. I haven't played my ps2 in months, and the only game ever spinning in my cast is Marvel Vs. Capcom 2.

[Disoblige]

I would go with PS2 myself. The large library as well as it holds a lot of fighting and RPG games are good enough for me. Plus, the large library is enough to keep one at bay, and it's not as hard to buy games for it at the moment.

[Elusive]

Dreamcast. Let's see: the world's first 128-bit machine (yeah yeah I know it's a convenient label), truly innovative memory unit, co-operation from major developers and hardware licensers, out-of-the-box online gaming capability (another first), the machine that brought us cel-shading and bump mapping, hit an incredibly high point on launch day, and had the capabilities of a current arcade machine - meaning arcade-perfect ports such as Crazy Taxi and Virtual On.

It SHOULD have won the war, damnit. Why didn't it? :Panda:

I live to see the day you burn, Dogma Corp. :hand:

[redrum666]

It SHOULD have won the war, damnit. Why didn't it? :Panda:


well for one thing it did not have a DVD player and that was a big selling point for the ps2 at the time unlike today where you can get a DVD player for less then $20 come to think of it one came in side my box of cornpops the other day LOL

[j_factor]

It SHOULD have won the war, damnit. Why didn't it? :Panda:

Because they pulled the plug before the war began.

[108 Stars]

I´d have to pick the PS 2 for it´s huge library. Many of my favourites are PS2-exclusive.

[Novaka]

I'll go for the DC, there are some exclusive games for it.... And some (most) are fun. I used to own one until i got a PSX.... Stupid me.

[108 Stars]

It SHOULD have won the war, damnit. Why didn't it?

Cuz it was a Sega.
People lost all their trust in Sega (me too) when they abandoned the Genesis so suddenly after screwing up Sega CD and 32X.
Saturn was dead pretty soon too. I did not invest money in a new Sega-console because my past Sega-experience warned me.

[Demonic Weasel]

And that's the atitude of people who aren't willing to give things a chance on their own merit. If you had been willing to then the Saturn and DC wouldn't have necessarily died.

[j_factor]

Saturn's early death was part of the reason I didn't buy into a DC early on. I had been a loyal Saturn owner, and I felt that I had been treated like shit as a customer, so I took my business elsewhere.

[XMARLTONX]

The saturn has a great selection of games, thats for sure, in my opinion WAY better than that of the DC's. However the PS2 has alot of the same awesome games that are on the saturn, not all, but some.

Not to mention the library of the PS2 is huge, and pretty good. I dont know how you can say it sucks, it really has something for everyone and is still expanding (and this is coming from someone who really dislikes the playstation).

In my opinion the DC was better than the PS2 and had equal if not better graphics, but I think its lack of variety killed it. I keep trying to justify buying a DC because I really want to get into it, but every time I look at the list, I can't do it. Unless you like anime RPGs youre pretty much screwed, as there are only a bunch of so so titles, not alot of ones that stand out. Which is a shame because the DC is awesome. Too bad the library wasnt varied enough, I am sure it would still be around today.

Although I hate that damn controller, I gotta pick PS2.

[Joe Redifer]

The Dreamcast controller certainly isn't a winner in any respect, either.

[XMARLTONX]

The Dreamcast controller certainly isn't a winner in any respect, either.

Thats for sure. Although the VMU was cool, it was a hard controller to hold.

I always thought the N64 had the best controller.

[j_factor]

I like the triggers on the DC controller, but yeah, it's not the best controller around.

[108 Stars]

And that's the atitude of people who aren't willing to give things a chance on their own merit. If you had been willing to then the Saturn and DC wouldn't have necessarily died.

It´s not my job to give a company chance after chance and paying money for products they´ll abandon as soon as some problems appear or some new ideas come to their mind.
Every company has to earn it´s trust. Sega proved unable to manage an own console; many chances were given away and many mistakes were made, and customers were the ones who had to live with it. It´s only natural to be frustrated and to lose trust.

Maybe you have so much money it doesn´t bother you when one console dies, but for many people like me it´s a decision of having one console per generation to play for the next 4 or 5 years or not.:bang:

[Demonic Weasel]

I don't have all that much money actually, but I do know that when people refuse to try out a console on its own merits, but instead focus on the previous record that all gamers get are the systems and companies that produce generic crap for the masses.

The Sega Saturn was a good console with lots of good games and that's what people ignored because the 32X was handled poorly.

[108 Stars]

The Sega Saturn was a good console with lots of good games and that's what people ignored because the 32X was handled poorly.

Not only the 32X. The Mega CD wasn´t handeled much better (rushed hardware, high price, almost no good software in Europe). And the sudden drop of almost all Mega Drive support the minute the Saturn arrived.
What we had then was a console with a pretty weak first software-wave compared to the PlayStation´s (an old typical Sega-mistake, rushing a hardware-release without top-software at hand) at a higher price.
Third-party support was also weaker for the Saturn from the very beginning. In addition to that, the hardware architecture was so fucking complicated that only very few companies beside Sega were able to produce 3D-graphics in PlayStation-quality.
2D-graphics were the Saturn´s greatest strength, but unfortunately nobody cared about bitmaps anymore in that whole 3D-hysteria.
The poor marketing did the rest to kill the Saturn. It was Sega´s own fault. It is not our duty to be loyal to Sega. Sega has to convince the customers that it is the better choice, but all it did manage was to convince customers that Sega is a company you can´t rely on.
With the Dreamcast Sega did try to do everything right, but this time there was the memory of the Saturn´s failure. People believed Sega could not compete once the PlayStation 2 is out (like Sega has always been only no.2 in the end with every console they launched). Third parties mostly brought enhanced versions of PlayStation 1-games, or they did not bring real sequels to their best franchises (Namco brought Soul Calibur, not an incarnation of the more popular Tekken series; Capcom didn´t want a DC-game to be called Resident Evil 4, so they made the game a spinoff...). In the end even the great (and cheap) Dreamcast-hardware couldn´t mend the broken trust customers and third-parties had for Sega.
I´m glad Sega quit the hardware buisiness, because it was always the software that made the company big. Now Sega´s games can be played on consoles whose producer´s know how to promote a hardware.

[Demonic Weasel]

The Mega CD wasn't handled that badly actually. The only problem with it was all of the FMV games and straight ports. And I grant you that that is a legitimate complaint, but all the same it's not something that should have caused people to drop the Saturn.

And the history of the Saturn was that it would be mainly a 2D competitor. The company had to make some major changes so that the system could compete in 3D as well. And the Saturn started out with some good software too.

Both of us know that our opinions on the Playstation are at opposite ends of the spectrum, so brining it up really isn't going to get us anywhere.

I grant you that marketing strategies were poor, I grant you that it didn't have enough 3rd party support, I grant you that in the end Sega killed it. BUT the Saturn was a good console for people who took the time to actually investigate it a little, and the quality of the games was very high when people bothered to look for it.

But most people were not willing to investigate it on it's own merits. They attacked it on the grounds of the failure of the CD and 32X when it was actually a very good system for people who kept an open mind. Sega made mistakes, yes, but the system isn't automatically a mistake unless buyers make it one by not being open-minded enough to investigate it's strengths and weaknesses first hand.

[108 Stars]

And the history of the Saturn was that it would be mainly a 2D competitor. The company had to make some major changes so that the system could compete in 3D as well. And the Saturn started out with some good software too.
I know that the Saturn was a fine system, and that it had quite a lot of classics. I also know of the last-minute changes that were made by the hardware engineers to make it a worthy 3D-console. Gameplaywise it did have good starting-titles, but you have to see it through the eyes of the potential customers; Virtua Fighter or Daytona USA didn´t look very impressive compared to Toshinden and Ridge Racer or WipEout.


But most people were not willing to investigate it on it's own merits. They attacked it on the grounds of the failure of the CD and 32X when it was actually a very good system for people who kept an open mind. Sega made mistakes, yes, but the system isn't automatically a mistake unless buyers make it one by not being open-minded enough to investigate it's strengths and weaknesses first hand.

For me and many other people, it was too much of a risk. As I stated before, I had to decide what console to spend the money I spared for 1 1/2 years on. I guess you´re from the USA, so you did not experience the same as European customers; the Genesis and Mega CD were both handled worse here than in the states, the Genny only a little, but for the Mega CD it was the same story as with the 32X later. No good exclusive software (no Lunar, no Vay, no Popful Mail, no Dark Wizard, no Eternal Champions), except for a very few good titles such as Shining Force CD, Thunderhawk, Snatcher and Sonic CD it was only the things you mentioned yourself (FMV games and straight ports of cartridge games).
Sega also promised to support the Mega Drive as strong as ever for the coming years, but in the end, not even the long awaited X-perts saw the light of day.
All these things got Sega a bad reputation:
If Sega drops support for a system as successfull as the Mega Drive, what will they do if the Saturn does not live up to their expectations?
And having that in mind I saw that Sega was already in the defensive position against the PlayStation soon after the "war" had started.
And the N 64 was not even released yet...
I find it understandable that people do mind their past experiences with a company. Sadly, by the time Sega understood that (when launching Dreamcast) it was too late to win the people back...

[Elusive]

Hay guys, no Nintendo console has outsold its predecessor, so can we all totally ignore the Wii?

Sega never died, people stopped believing. *lights a candle*

[Demonic Weasel]

No we cannot. The Wii looks much better than the 360 or the PS3.

And as for the Saturn I still say that true gamers should give a system more than a preliminary look. But what do I know? I still think that Sega had a great thing with the Saturn.

[j_factor]

If Sega drops support for a system as successfull as the Mega Drive, what will they do if the Saturn does not live up to their expectations?
And having that in mind I saw that Sega was already in the defensive position against the PlayStation soon after the "war" had started.
And the N 64 was not even released yet...
I find it understandable that people do mind their past experiences with a company. Sadly, by the time Sega understood that (when launching Dreamcast) it was too late to win the people back...

I don't see how Sega "understood" that when launching the Dreamcast. DC still had those problems -- too early, less than stellar arcade ports early on (ahem, VF3, Sega Rally 2), dropping support for their previous system way before they have to, and so on. At least with Saturn, they didn't drop Genesis support until a while after it was out. With Dreamcast, they dropped Saturn support before they'd manufactured a single DC. Even in Japan, where Saturn was very popular, the final first party release was a scant few months after the DC launch. In the US, they didn't even bother to release a single game for 17 months prior to the DC launch. When Sega showed that they were capable of simply not releasing any videogames at all for an extended length of time, I wanted nothing to do with their upcoming console. Say what you will about Saturn's rocky start, but nothing compares to completely exiting the videogame business for a year and a half.

[Barracuda]

I would choose the DC. I never got into the Saturn so I sold mine. :( I have nothing against Playstation but I really hate the controllers!

[Benjamin]

I don't see how Sega "understood" that when launching the Dreamcast. DC still had those problems -- too early, less than stellar arcade ports early on (ahem, VF3, Sega Rally 2), dropping support for their previous system way before they have to, and so on.

VF3 and Sega Rally 2 were not launch games, and both were decent ports. However, you can't ignore Soul Calibur, an enhanced arcade port that still is often considered the best of the series. Power Stone, also a launch title, was an excellent "arcade perfect" fighter port as well. The Dreamcast's launch was incredible, and that was reflected in its terrific opening day sales. The only negative thing about the system's launch was the lack of on-line play available out the box. The wait for ChuChu Rocket was too long and hardly what most people were looking for.




With Dreamcast, they dropped Saturn support before they'd manufactured a single DC. Even in Japan, where Saturn was very popular, the final first party release was a scant few months after the DC launch. In the US, they didn't even bother to release a single game for 17 months prior to the DC launch. When Sega showed that they were capable of simply not releasing any videogames at all for an extended length of time, I wanted nothing to do with their upcoming console. Say what you will about Saturn's rocky start, but nothing compares to completely exiting the videogame business for a year and a half.

The Saturn had to die. No multi-million dollar business is going to keep a product afloat to appease a handful of fans. Even with the limited printings of Shining Force III, Burning Force, etc., the games still had to be liquidated to $20 just to get them off the shelves. This cleaned the slate and allowed Sega and the public to focus on the Dreamcast, which was Sega's future. The Dreamcast died due to the financial drain of the Saturn's blunder, which was too much for Sega to continue operating as a hardware manufacturer. :(

Anyway... Voted Dreamcast. :) VGA support makes the PS2 ported titles better on the system, and until PS2 gets Daytona, ChuChu Rocket, PowerStone, and others which yet to be ported, I see little reason to look the other way. :) Plus the Dreamcast controller is so much better than the PS2 pad thanks to the VMU, natural analog triggers, and fightertastic D-pad. The Saturn has a number of great games, and perhaps I'm making the wrong choice. Right now I'm just focused on Third Strike and Virtua Tennis, which I don't think I could live without.

[Elusive]

OK then, how's this for a closing summary: when SEGA do things right, the sky's the limit. When they stumble, they hit the ground hard, but somehow pick themselves up again.

...stop me, I'm going philosiphical :D

[108 Stars]

Plus the Dreamcast controller is so much better than the PS2 pad thanks to the VMU, natural analog triggers, and fightertastic D-pad.

I liked the VMUs, but not the overall pad-design. I think the Dual Shock is the best pad ever, it lies in the hands so good, there´s nothing like it for me.


OK then, how's this for a closing summary: when SEGA do things right, the sky's the limit. When they stumble, they hit the ground hard, but somehow pick themselves up again.

Well spoken. But I guess they didn´t pick themselves up completely after Dreamcast. They´re not standing cuz they noticed that they don´t fall so deep when they´re just sitting in the first place.:nod:

[Sega Saturn x]

I always thought the N64 had the best controller
You're insane

The sega cd and 32X are only a small piece of the puzzle. Sega screwed the saturn base, and hard at that. I don't blame anyone for not buying a cast after the mess that was the saturn. Granted I love the console but I'm a sucker for 2-D. The 3-D games on it are ugly and un wieldly, but I guess you can sort of say that about all of the 32bit gens games couldn't you.

[j_factor]

VF3 and Sega Rally 2 were not launch games, and both were decent ports.

VF3 was a launch game, at least in Japan. Sega Rally 2 wasn't, but it was pretty close. Both had serious problems -- VF3's graphics were taken down to basically Saturn quality, negating the point of a new console in the minds of many Japanese gamers (and making a further sore point since the Saturn port of VF3 had been canned in favor of this "superior" version). It was also extremely basic, with no real "modes" to speak of. Sega Rally 2 was plagued with terrible framerate drops.


However, you can't ignore Soul Calibur, an enhanced arcade port that still is often considered the best of the series. Power Stone, also a launch title, was an excellent "arcade perfect" fighter port as well. The Dreamcast's launch was incredible, and that was reflected in its terrific opening day sales.

The Dreamcast's US launch was incredible, and that was reflected in its terrific US opening day sales. Its Japanese launch was practically a disaster.


The Saturn had to die. No multi-million dollar business is going to keep a product afloat to appease a handful of fans.

That's been done many times, by many businesses.


Even with the limited printings of Shining Force III, Burning Force, etc., the games still had to be liquidated to $20 just to get them off the shelves.

Do you even remember when these games came out? Chances are that if you weren't a seriously avid Saturn owner, you had no idea about these games' releases. I only knew about them from looking at a release list and preordering them, and the only evidence of their existence was holding a copy in my hand. These games had zero promotion whatsoever. If you sneak out a game without telling people about it, it's simply not going to reach its market. The fact that they began fetching high prices almost right after release proves that there was more of a market for them than they got. Also, Sonic R sold pretty well, and it was released only a few months before those games.

Besides, we're talking about a time period when Sega (of America) brought out zero games. Don't you think they lost money by operating a videogame business without releasing videogames? Games don't necessarily have to be big sellers; a lower-selling game with a lower cost can still pull in a decent profit. Some of the games SoA was sitting on, like Deep Fear for example, would've taken two guys a weekend to design US packaging and send to the printers, and even if it sold less than great, basically every copy sold is free money.


This cleaned the slate and allowed Sega and the public to focus on the Dreamcast, which was Sega's future.

Cleaning the slate to focus on the future is not necessarily a wise move. Dreamcast, and Saturn to an extent, showed this.

[Benjamin]

Both had serious problems -- VF3's graphics were taken down to basically Saturn quality, negating the point of a new console in the minds of many Japanese gamers (and making a further sore point since the Saturn port of VF3 had been canned in favor of this "superior" version).

You are grossly exaggerating the quality of the VF3 Dreamcast port. Saturn quality? There's no need for hyperbole. The chief complaints graphically for VF3 was the shadows breaking along angeled surfaces and the odd looking joints. Other than that, the game still managed to retain the flexing muscle architecture and detailed 3-D landscapes of the original game. I do wonder if Sega could have done a better port of the game instead of handing it off to Genki, but that's something we'll never know. :( What hurt VF3 was the comparisons to Soul Calibur, which didn't have near the detail in character model architecture or 3-D backgrounds and levels of VF3 but looked so much more cleaner and better by comparison. Unfortunately for it though, Dead or Alive 2 would come along and show that you can have both.



That's been done many times, by many businesses.

Name me one company that goes through significant debt to cultivate a small following by creating unique products to satisfy its limited consumer base. Virtual Boy? No. 32X? No. If you're thinking Neo Geo, you do realize that the arcade MVS tapes and the AES home cartridges are the same? Every console dies eventually. Video games are a business. People don't throw the millions of dollars into the market without thinking they can make money from the investment.



Do you even remember when these games came out? Chances are that if you weren't a seriously avid Saturn owner, you had no idea about these games' releases. I only knew about them from looking at a release list and preordering them, and the only evidence of their existence was holding a copy in my hand. These games had zero promotion whatsoever. If you sneak out a game without telling people about it, it's simply not going to reach its market.

All of the final Saturn games had a number magazine ads announcing their release and were well displayed in EBs and Toys R Us. The games were well reviewed in magazines as well and could hardly be called being "snuck" out. Everyone I knew into video games knew about them, and they were easy enough to find stores with them. Consider EBs were even selling Saturn import games at that point, if you were a fan of the system, you had plenty of access to its games at the time (assuming you have a game or toy store in your area).




The fact that they began fetching high prices almost right after release proves that there was more of a market for them than they got. Also, Sonic R sold pretty well, and it was released only a few months before those games.

I'd be interested in your TRST figures for Sonic R (and any others from the era you may have). I'd expect it to do okay being the first wholy original Sonic Saturn title, but hardly enough to revive the system. Also, the Saturn titles weren't fetching high prices for quite a while. I was selling Panzer Dragoon Saga games new for $60-70 well after a year of its release. The same goes for Radiant Silvergun and a number of now pricey games -- they take quite a while before the reputation and "rarity" drive the average going price up.





Besides, we're talking about a time period when Sega (of America) brought out zero games. Don't you think they lost money by operating a videogame business without releasing videogames? Games don't necessarily have to be big sellers; a lower-selling game with a lower cost can still pull in a decent profit. Some of the games SoA was sitting on, like Deep Fear for example, would've taken two guys a weekend to design US packaging and send to the printers, and even if it sold less than great, basically every copy sold is free money.

You're seriously discounting the ease of producing, translating, and porting a game, bringing it to market, licensing the rights to other regions, doing PR work, etc. Look how long Magic Knight Rayearth stagnated if you think it could have "taken two guys a weekend" to port a game to the US. :p

No, Sega will not lose money by leaving a business which is keeping them in the red. It's basic business economics. Sega has plenty of other revenue generators with its arcade operations, anime publishing, and toy production. Again, the Dreamcast was a huge success -- leaving the scene as it were had no impact on that for the worse.

[16bitter]

VF3 was a launch game, at least in Japan. Sega Rally 2 wasn't, but it was pretty close. Both had serious problems -- VF3's graphics were taken down to basically Saturn quality,

:rofl:


The fact that they began fetching high prices almost right after release proves that there was more of a market for them than they got.

This is a fine example of seriously tortured logic.


Cleaning the slate to focus on the future is not necessarily a wise move.

In the case of the Genesis to Saturn transition, this is fully true. In regards to Saturn to Dreamcast, there was no future at all for the former some years in as it was very nearly DOA in the States.

And thus there was no real transition to speak of. Unless you consider the Dreamcast suffering due to Sega's past mistakes -- a great many, if not most, connected to its most direct hardware forebear -- some form of warped version of that aforementioned description. Which you could, but something tells me that you see the Saturn as more of a success than failure in this context.

Which it most assuredly wasn't and isn't.


Dreamcast, and Saturn to an extent, showed this.

No, the Saturn showed that fully. Whereas the Dreamcast was merely a victim of the fallout from the Saturn's massive failure and Sega's moronic business practices in the mid-90s.

As far as the base positives of the hardware and the software at launch, the Dreamcast is an example of Sega making the right moves. The Saturn? Not at all.

It made sense to cut their losses on the Saturn -- as the losses were massive and ended up destroying Sega as we knew them -- but not in regards to the Genesis. Not in the US, in any case.

It's one thing to love the Saturn and it's software, but let's not pretend it was anything other than a horrible piece of work for Sega in the context of market share. Business-wise, the Saturn couldn't have been much more of a disaster for Sega.

Comparing the Saturn to the Genesis on that level (i.e. making it out to be some sort of business triumph that was dropped too soon), or acting as if the Dreamcast was the true failure of Sega's hardware lineage, is a ridiculous bit of biased revisionism. At best.

Carry on. :D

[16bitter]

You are grossly exaggerating the quality of the VF3 Dreamcast port. Saturn quality? There's no need for hyperbole.

Actually, he's grossly exagerrating the Saturn's abilities at least as much as he's denigrationg the DC -- which, I'd hazard, is more the point of his agenda than bashing the DC. And when he does tear into the DC, it's consistently to find a way, roundabout or otherwise, to act as if the Saturn was more than reality would have us know.

Same song and dance, just a different partner. In more ways than one.

[j_factor]

You are grossly exaggerating the quality of the VF3 Dreamcast port. Saturn quality? There's no need for hyperbole. The chief complaints graphically for VF3 was the shadows breaking along angeled surfaces and the odd looking joints. Other than that, the game still managed to retain the flexing muscle architecture and detailed 3-D landscapes of the original game. I do wonder if Sega could have done a better port of the game instead of handing it off to Genki, but that's something we'll never know. :( What hurt VF3 was the comparisons to Soul Calibur, which didn't have near the detail in character model architecture or 3-D backgrounds and levels of VF3 but looked so much more cleaner and better by comparison.

Yes, that was an exaggeration, but still. It has nothing to do with Soul Calibur; Soul Calibur was not available in Japan in November of 1998, and VF3tb was considered a disappointment even then.

edit: I wouldn't blame Genki, though. They were given a ridiculously short amount of time to do the port. Considering it was done in like 8 weeks or something to meet the hurried DC launch, they should be commended for at least porting the gameplay just right. Why Sega never put out a "Remix" version like they'd done with VF1, I'll never know.



Name me one company that goes through significant debt to cultivate a small following by creating unique products to satisfy its limited consumer base. Virtual Boy? No. 32X? No. If you're thinking Neo Geo, you do realize that the arcade MVS tapes and the AES home cartridges are the same? Every console dies eventually. Video games are a business. People don't throw the millions of dollars into the market without thinking they can make money from the investment.

You're getting carried away here. All I was saying is that products with a limited consumer base can carry on. You can bet that very few people cared about Intellivision after 1983, but it continued for another 7 years. Same story with the 2600. And while Saturn was certainly never as successful as those consoles had been, it was at least as successful as they were during the post-crash era.



You're seriously discounting the ease of producing, translating, and porting a game, bringing it to market, licensing the rights to other regions, doing PR work, etc. Look how long Magic Knight Rayearth stagnated if you think it could have "taken two guys a weekend" to port a game to the US. :p

Magic Knight Rayearth took so long because game code and some other things had been lost. Also, it was an RPG that had to be translated from Japanese to English. That doesn't have anything to do with SoA passing on games that were already in English. "Two guys a weekend" was a figure of speech, but do you really think it would've commanded a large amount of resources to bring out Deep Fear in the US?


No, Sega will not lose money by leaving a business which is keeping them in the red. It's basic business economics. Sega has plenty of other revenue generators with its arcade operations, anime publishing, and toy production. Again, the Dreamcast was a huge success -- leaving the scene as it were had no impact on that for the worse.

Dreamcast was a success... in the US. In Japan, it had been launched a scant month and a half after the system had been unveiled to the public at TGS, had a dearth of quality software at launch and for the next several months, and was accompanied by an abrupt discontinuation of Saturn, which had been more than moderately popular there. Consequently, Sega saw their market share in Japan shrink by a large amount.

[j_factor]

As far as the base positives of the hardware and the software at launch, the Dreamcast is an example of Sega making the right moves.

No, it's an example of SoA making the right moves. A 28.8k modem, 1 decent launch game, a lack of quality software for about a year, vibration packs not being available at launch, etc. were not good moves.


It made sense to cut their losses on the Saturn -- as the losses were massive and ended up destroying Sega as we knew them -- but not in regards to the Genesis. Not in the US, in any case.

It made sense for SoA to cut their losses on Saturn, but not to the extent that they did. Canning everything for a year and a half simply doesn't look good. Have you ever heard of a videogame company releasing no games for a year and a half, and then coming back to great success?


It's one thing to love the Saturn and it's software, but let's not pretend it was anything other than a horrible piece of work for Sega in the context of market share. Business-wise, the Saturn couldn't have been much more of a disaster for Sega.

You're exaggerating a bit much.


Comparing the Saturn to the Genesis on that level (i.e. making it out to be some sort of business triumph that was dropped too soon),

Saturn was the most popular Sega console in Japan to date, and SoJ dropped it within 4 years. So yes, it was dropped too soon, especially considering how long successful systems in Japan generally stay on the market. Even NEC, with all the myriad problems they were having, kept PC Engine support at some level until 1997 (that's 10 years, people).

This didn't help Dreamcast. Publishers that had been responsible for some of Saturn's key hits in Japan either stopped supporting Sega entirely or reduced it dramatically. Atlus, who had been responsible for some hit Saturn games like Devil Summoner, Princess Crown, Groove On Fight, and so on, put out a grand total of two DC games -- and Maken X wasn't exactly a big hit.

When G/MD had come out relatively soon after Master System, SoE kept up the good will and their success by maintaining SMS support for a number of years. SoJ did the opposite, and it's no wonder their market share was greatly diminished in transition.


or acting as if the Dreamcast was the true failure of Sega's hardware lineage

I said nothing of the sort, and considering that I said that Sega shouldn't have pulled the plug on DC, I think that's an unfair mischaracterization of my sentiment.

[Joe Redifer]

Even NEC, with all the myriad problems they were having, kept PC Engine support at some level until 1997 (that's 10 years, people).
Correction - Some official PC Engine games came out as late as 1999. That's 12 years, people!

[16bitter]

You're exaggerating a bit much.

The Saturn's failure led to Sega having to leave the hardware business. So, no, there's no exagerration on my part.


Saturn was the most popular Sega console in Japan to date,

Considering how little success Sega has ever had in Japan, that means jack. Especially since Sony still plastered them in their native land.

A relative victory that was still a loss. That's as good as it ever was for the Saturn.


and SoJ dropped it within 4 years. So yes, it was dropped too soon,

No. It wasn't dropped too soon, because it was dead in the one market that matters -- the US.

The Genesis was dropped too soon. And that was partially due to the Saturn's "success" in Japan early on.

The Saturn era was a disaster on so many levels.


I said nothing of the sort, and considering that I said that Sega shouldn't have pulled the plug on DC, I think that's an unfair mischaracterization of my sentiment.

What you've been doing is attempting to make the Saturn out to be more of a success than it was, connectively making the Dreamcast out to be less than it was.

We can see this through, for one example, your hyperbole over the system's irrelevent (and debatable) success in Japan, whereas its tremoundous lack of success in the United States doesn't seem to register with you at all when looking at the system's course. Japan means little to nothing when compared to this market, as we saw with the Genesis.

The truth is that the Dreamcast died not because of its own flaws, but because of the mistakes made long before it was ever developed. The Saturn, on the other hand, can be credited with sinking Sega as a hardware leader and manufacturer altogether.

Sega fell apart the minute they turned their backs on the American market, and this corporate policy came in the form of the Sega Saturn.

But if you want to pretend that Japan is the tried and true measure of a console's success, while America is secondary at best, go right ahead. Sega made that same mistake themselves. And we saw where that got them.

But even within this specious ratiocination from your side, the Saturn was niche at best in its homeland. And dead in America and Europe. In other words, a massive failure.

[Benjamin]

Yes, that was an exaggeration, but still. It has nothing to do with Soul Calibur; Soul Calibur was not available in Japan in November of 1998, and VF3tb was considered a disappointment even then.

Funny, cause Famitsu gave the game an excellent 36/40 rating. With all due respect, I think you're letting your opinion cloud your memory of certain facts regarding the Dreamcast launch, changing them to suit your own views. The constant exaggeration also seems to point in that direction. VF3 isn't nearly as bad as you'd like to make it out to be and was well received by all. It wasn't until Soul Calibur -- and VF3's own delayed release in the US -- that made it look poor by comparison.


You're getting carried away here. All I was saying is that products with a limited consumer base can carry on. You can bet that very few people cared about Intellivision after 1983, but it continued for another 7 years. Same story with the 2600. And while Saturn was certainly never as successful as those consoles had been, it was at least as successful as they were during the post-crash era.

You're proving my point -- those consoles were tremendous successes with huge installed consumer bases. The Saturn hardly compares, let alone the ease of creating a game for the 2600 versus a 32-bit CD-ROM title that can compete with others for your gaming dollar. All 2600 games were made from scratch by a single person over a few weeks. Modern CD-ROM games take years and millions of dollars to develop; the cost and time invested versus possible return on profit on its limited installed base just isn't there.


Dreamcast was a success... in the US. In Japan, it had been launched a scant month and a half after the system had been unveiled to the public at TGS, had a dearth of quality software at launch and for the next several months, and was accompanied by an abrupt discontinuation of Saturn, which had been more than moderately popular there. Consequently, Sega saw their market share in Japan shrink by a large amount.

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You say sales were hurt in the US by the Saturn's cancelation, but the 500,000 Dreamcast launch units sold and general stellar success of the console here discredit that. On the other hand, you say how successful the Saturn was in Japan, but then go on to cite how "poor" its Dreamcast launch was, despite following a supported system. You can't cherry pick facts and ignore ones which don't support your view. After all, the MegaDrive sold horribly in Japan, yet that didn't stop the Saturn from bettering its sales. Prior console success or failure isn't the clearcut blueprint for a future console's outlook as you may like to believe -- otherwise, Nintendo would not be losing so much marketshare with each systems' release.

[j_factor]

You can't have your cake and eat it, too. You say sales were hurt in the US by the Saturn's cancelation, but the 500,000 Dreamcast launch units sold and general stellar success of the console here discredit that.

Did I say that?

What I think is that Sega's reputation was hurt. It's not about the Saturn. They could've kept releasing Genesis and Game Gear games, and that would've been much preferable to zero output. So, yes, that hurt sales, indirectly. 500,000 launch units were followed by a sales slump, accompanied by a general feeling that Sega probably wasn't going to bother seeing the system through.

Dreamcast was successful here, but its success was hardly stellar. It was never the #1 system, it never achieved more than 1/3 market share. And just because it had some level of success, doesn't mean that no mistakes were made or that it was as much of a success as it could've been. Further, its lack of success in Japan and Europe, even if you don't think they matter, was surely not unnoticed by Sega, and certainly played a large role in their decision to announce DC's cancellation in January 2001.

An important part of success is maintaining and improving relations with other businesses. Sega continuously failed to do that from the launch of the Saturn to the death of the DC. Dreamcast was a great system with many great games, but it was not some Sega renaissance -- Sega was still doing much of the same shit that they'd been doing.


On the other hand, you say how successful the Saturn was in Japan, but then go on to cite how "poor" its Dreamcast launch was, despite following a supported system.

Ok, so how was it not a mistake to discontinue Saturn support so quickly in Japan? It's undeniable that Dreamcast didn't do as well as Saturn there. I've already cited Sega's success in Europe, which was helped by how they continued to support SMS after the Mega Drive. And no one would disagree that it was a mistake for Sega to not give Genesis more post-Saturn support in the US. So how is this something that doesn't apply to the Japanese market? Especially considering that the Japanese like to keep their systems longer than anywhere else.

[Benjamin]

Dreamcast was successful here, but its success was hardly stellar. It was never the #1 system, it never achieved more than 1/3 market share.

Neither did the PlayStation or any other system, either. To expect a machine to achieve dominance over the market within a year (Dreamcast barely lasted two) is just silly. Again, that doesn't negate the sales records the Dreamcast set, and, really, who knows how well the system would have done if Sega hadn't pulled the plug. You really can't say that about the Saturn; Sega just shot a dying dog there.



An important part of success is maintaining and improving relations with other businesses. Sega continuously failed to do that from the launch of the Saturn to the death of the DC. Dreamcast was a great system with many great games, but it was not some Sega renaissance -- Sega was still doing much of the same shit that they'd been doing.

I completely disagree. Sega reached out to third-parties, provided tools to develop games with, made it Windows CE friendly to encourage development, did a proper retailer release with no surprises, had a good marketing campaign behind it, and so on and so forth. I believe Sega learned its lessons from the Saturn well, and the Dreamcast's launch success shows it.

I do wonder sometimes if SoJ pulled the plugged on the Dreamcast more because SoA killed off the Saturn. The company seems so ridiculously xenophobic at times that I can't help but think that the business decisions and successes in the US helped end Sega's hardware future since the company couldn't tolerate not being able to generate profits within its own region. That's just speculation, of course, but Sega definitely always seems to run hot or cold, which the company always getting a mostly cold reception in its native country.


Ok, so how was it not a mistake to discontinue Saturn support so quickly in Japan?

Simple -- the Saturn was a reasonable success there, and profit could be had by releasing games since the market was large enough to support sales. The same cannot be said of the system's dismal performance elsewhere.

[HolyBloody16Bitter]

im had to be hones, i choosed the ps2. It has the coolest games of all 3 consoles. But It was hard to pick because the other two are also great! But for me it is Devil May Cry en Onimusha games which are the best for me, so that's why I prefer the PS2!

[j_factor]

Neither did the PlayStation or any other system, either. To expect a machine to achieve dominance over the market within a year (Dreamcast barely lasted two) is just silly.

It's not that I'd expect it to per se. But you said "stellar success", which isn't the same as simply meeting sales expectations. Dreamcast peaked at, what, 34% of the market? That's a success, but not a stellar one.


who knows how well the system would have done if Sega hadn't pulled the plug.

I agree with this wholeheartedly. In fact, I'd go so far as to say that Dreamcast was poised to be #2, holding its own against Gamecube and Xbox. In the US at least. In Japan, its sales had been not so good, but I think if the plug hadn't been pulled, it would've improved dramatically with Sakura Taisen 3 & 4 and Virtua Fighter 4. Europe was probably a lost cause, but you can afford to lose Europe.

Actually, I think it was an outright blunder to pull the plug on DC. Consider this quote (http://www.gamenationtv.com/gamingnews/segapresident.shtml) of Peter Moore from shortly after the DC death announcement:


"Last year Sega was the number six software publisher in the US with only a 3 million Dreamcast installed base" Moore stated. "Just imagine the possibilities of Sega's content on an infinite platform base."

But where are they now? Far out of the top ten for years, and they had been in worse financial shape than ever when Sammy bailed them out.

But, I digress.


You really can't say that about the Saturn; Sega just shot a dying dog there.

If you're referring to when Sega officially discontinued Saturn in the US, sure. But it was arguably killed long before then, before it was a dying dog.


I completely disagree. Sega reached out to third-parties, provided tools to develop games with, made it Windows CE friendly to encourage development, did a proper retailer release with no surprises, had a good marketing campaign behind it, and so on and so forth. I believe Sega learned its lessons from the Saturn well, and the Dreamcast's launch success shows it.

Dreamcast had nice development tools and a brilliant launch, to be sure. But I don't think they reached out to third parties much. Enix, for example, had supported Saturn a bit, and had originally planned to make Dragon Quest 7 exclusively for Saturn (but they canned that game, and we ended up with something different as DQ7). To my knowledge they never even planned a single DC game. Did Sega reach out to Enix?

Did Sega reach out to EA?


I do wonder sometimes if SoJ pulled the plugged on the Dreamcast more because SoA killed off the Saturn. The company seems so ridiculously xenophobic at times that I can't help but think that the business decisions and successes in the US helped end Sega's hardware future since the company couldn't tolerate not being able to generate profits within its own region. That's just speculation, of course, but Sega definitely always seems to run hot or cold, which the company always getting a mostly cold reception in its native country.

I wouldn't be too surprised were that the case. Sega's divisions were (perhaps still are) positively bitchy to each other.


Simple -- the Saturn was a reasonable success there, and profit could be had by releasing games since the market was large enough to support sales. The same cannot be said of the system's dismal performance elsewhere.

Right... so, again, how was it a good thing that Sega stopped releasing Saturn games in Japan so early? The final first-party JP Saturn release was in early '99 (and it was Sonic 3D, lol), and the latter half of '98 was extremely scant.

I just can't put my support behind this little-to-nothing policy of Sega's in 1998 to early '99. Sega's greatness was never in not releasing games.

[108 Stars]

Europe was probably a lost cause, but you can afford to lose Europe.

We´re worthless...:Panda:

[j_factor]

We´re worthless...:Panda:

Not entirely. If it wasn't for the SMS success there, I wouldn't have nearly as many great SMS games to play.

Also, European developers have put out many of the best games. Not so much nowadays, sadly -- but in the past, Europe held its own against Japan and North America in terms of quality game development.

:)

[Elusive]

We´re worthless...:Panda:

Au contraire. SEGA might not have sold as many of their products in total in Europe as happened in the States - however, they've always achieved a greater market share (i.e. sold stuff to a greater percentage of the population) in Europe than the American or Japanese markets. Probably because SEGA of Europe were the only company of the time to not screw us over completely - whilst SoA and SoJ were melting down, SoE kept right on releasing Master System games until 1996 - I only stopped seeing new Mega Drive 2 conosles appearing in mailorder catalogues sometime after the Dreamcast launch. I think the only true degree of success Nintendo had Europe-side was the Super NES and the Game Boy, leaving everything else to disappear like a wet fart. Them, along with Sony, are still screwing us over with release dates and crippled hardware (where's my e-reader, damnit?).

We're not worthless, just ignored :(

[Benjamin]

It's not that I'd expect it to per se. But you said "stellar success", which isn't the same as simply meeting sales expectations. Dreamcast peaked at, what, 34% of the market? That's a success, but not a stellar one.

I disagree. The system broke all kinds of sales records at launch and continued to sell at a steady clip. It didn't just "meet sales expectations" -- it surpassed them. Trying to downtalk its sales saying it didn't dominate the market is silly though given the system's short life. No system has dominated the market in such short time, including the top system seller ever, the PlayStation.


If you're referring to when Sega officially discontinued Saturn in the US, sure. But it was arguably killed long before then, before it was a dying dog.

How so?


Dreamcast had nice development tools and a brilliant launch, to be sure. But I don't think they reached out to third parties much.

Did Sega reach out to EA?

Yes, repeatedly. EA was adamant in stating initially that it would not develop for the Dreamcast, releasing a statement saying that it would only make games for the system if it sold a million units. Dreamcast reached that in record time, and EA backpeddled. It would have taken nothing for EA to port its PC products to the Dreamcast's Windows CE -- it would be like printing money for the company. EA would never develop for the system. Some companies are just pigheaded like that I suppose.


Right... so, again, how was it a good thing that Sega stopped releasing Saturn games in Japan so early? The final first-party JP Saturn release was in early '99 (and it was Sonic 3D, lol), and the latter half of '98 was extremely scant.

What's so difficult to understand? Games will continue to sell on systems which have a user base to make it profitable. Saturn in Japan was profitable. Also, Japanese figures for a sales success is much lower than in the US. (Why do I get a sense of dejavu saying this?)


I just can't put my support behind this little-to-nothing policy of Sega's in 1998 to early '99. Sega's greatness was never in not releasing games.

Yet, Sega's fall was in releasing games... for the Saturn. As I've already mentioned, the arcade business was still active, so Sega was hardly "not releasing games..." just not for a dead, unprofittable console.

[Psy]

Correction - Some official PC Engine games came out as late as 1999. That's 12 years, people!
Commodore C64 did 12 years too and the C64 would have gone 13 years if Commodore didn't go bankrupt. Commodore announced 1995 would have been the last year they would manufacture the C64 yet had a C65 in the pipe to try and milk the C64 for every penny (that was Commodore's second attempt at a upgrated C64 the first being the C128) that would be like Sega releasing the Neptune in 2002 to coincide with the Genesis going out of production in 2002.

Sega could have sold the Genesis for years as a low cost game system for years past 1995.





If you're referring to when Sega officially discontinued Saturn in the US, sure. But it was arguably killed long before then, before it was a dying dog.
How so?

"The Saturn is not our future" - Stolar (June 1997)

Remeber this even before the Dreamcast was released in Japan.

SOA calling the Saturn dead in 1997 added to this impression that Sega had a short attention span when it came to its hardware and rather just keep releasing new hardware then actually trying to salvage lagging sales (that were recoverable in 1997).

[Psy]

Just though I add that the Sega Saturn did sell far better then the Commodore Amiga.

Saturn sold about 10 million worldwide (according to SegaBase) and Commodore sold 5,292,200 Amigas worldwide (according to Commodore).

Amiga only did about 1 million in North America while Saturn did about 2 million in North America.

Yes the Saturn didn't perform well but it was far from a disaster.

[Rayek]

Dreamcast for me. Dreamcast gets my love for it's emulation abilities, plus having a good catalogue of 2D fighters, and some of my favorite games of all time.

Let's quote each other, and quote our quotes, and quote your quotes of me quoting. Actually, this banter is comparatively civil, to the thousands of other arguments (or in this case, discussions) I've seen on the net.

My 2 Cent: Dreamcast was the only Sega console (other than genesis) that they launched right. Only one minor argument can be made, and that is the vauge-ness of their adverts at the time. People didn't really know what the Dreamcast was, whereas, all anyone needed to say was Playstation 2, and every consumer in the world knew what it was.

But other than that, the Dreamcast launch showed Sega precisely what they needed, that people were still fanboys (or just gaming lovers) even after all the missteps along the way. Dreamcast owners would go home and gloat to their freinds who were waiting out for the PS2, because they had Soul Calibur and Sonic Adventure to show off.

Honestly, the only way that Sega could make money is by being first in any console race. The name was Nintendo before they took the throne and tipped the scales, but they had to be first to do that. Likewise with the Saturn and Dreamcast, barring the name to beat: Playstation. With the Dreamcast, they had a tough opponent to beat, and they did, in the only way they could; they balanced launch time with release titles so well, that, other than messy internal affairs, everything would have been peachy, and we probably would still be seeing DC titles on the shelves, and perhaps another Sega console coming soon. Don't blame the market, because DC was a successful as it was going to get for Sega at the time, and instead of building off of that small feat, they decided to prematurely kill it.

Long and short: DC was more of a success than the Saturn, but it's neither's fault that there's no more Sega, it's not our fault either. It's essentially Sega's.

[j_factor]

I disagree. The system broke all kinds of sales records at launch and continued to sell at a steady clip. It didn't just "meet sales expectations" -- it surpassed them.

It did not continue to sell at a steady clip. Although its launch was highly successful, that was followed by a dip in sales. At one point they had to stop production because their warehouses were full. Steve Kent interviewed a Sega representative and asked when they expected to resume Dreamcast production - the rep said the company had no idea when they could. Sales did improve again for late 2000, but let's not pretend there was no slump.

In any case, we have seriously strayed from what my original point was. What I really took umbrage with was the idea that Sega did everything right with the Dreamcast, and were only forced out of the market due to previously accumulated debt or something. Dreamcast was a great system, but you'd have to have seriously not been paying attention to notice its many issues. With lackluster marketing (how many people were swayed by Tails in a barfight?), a lame controller design, serious delays in getting Seganet up and running, and failure to attract serious third-party backing, the Dreamcast picture wasn't totally rosy.


It would have taken nothing for EA to port its PC products to the Dreamcast's Windows CE -- it would be like printing money for the company.

Man, are you serious? The DC Windows CE was absolutely dreadful, responsible for some of the biggest disappointments on the system.

[Vicman]

This is a hard toss up for me as I LOVED the Dreamcast and still very much do. Shoot, afterall these years I still have a little Dreamcast keychain that's attached to my car/house keyset that I use every single day. As much as I loved that console and played the crap out of it the DC just died way too early to have a library that can compete with the PS2's.

So I chose the PS2. I used to HATE Sony circa '99-'01 because of their massive marketing and hype that helped kill off the DC and keep many people away from trying the little white console that could. But over the years I learned something. I realized that fanboyism was utterly pointless and a complete waste of time. I put my bias aside and realized the reason why people supported Sony consoles, they keep them alive by consistently having tons of games!

Sega killed off the Genny when they absolutely shouldn't have, they slowly but surely starved the Saturn to death in the US, and they cut the DC off at the knees when it still had a lot of life left in it. Sega consistently screwed its customers over and over again.

Sony, on the other hand, supported its system(s) beyond the(ir) supposed expiration date. The PSX still had great games coming out for it till 2003. That was 8 years of continued support in the US. And even then Sony has stated that they bailed on the PSX earlier than they should have. A mistake they insist they won't make with the PS2. The PS2 is being set up to last even longer (10 years) and Sony looks to be delivering on extending the life of its console yet again.

The PS2 hasn't even hit $99 yet and it's already surpassed PSX's numbers. Sony would be fools not to continue to support the PS2 while giving budget conscious gamers, and familes, time to purchase a PS3 when it drops in price. They know this and its why the PS2 will be the hotest selling console for at least the next 2 christmases.

Continuing to provide a quality library of games even after you bring out a successor console goes a long way in earning customer support and confidence. People know they can buy a Sony console and good games will still be coming out for it for years afterwards.

The DC had a lot of great games, but the PS2s library just overwhelms it and will eventually, if not already, dwarf it in comparison.

Luckily I don't have to choose only 1. Multiplatform gaming FTMFW!

[Psy]

Dreamcast was a great system, but you'd have to have seriously not been paying attention to notice its many issues. With lackluster marketing (how many people were swayed by Tails in a barfight?), a lame controller design, serious delays in getting Seganet up and running, and failure to attract serious third-party backing, the Dreamcast picture wasn't totally rosy.

Lets not forget Sega being able to paint the Saturn as another 32x even though the Saturn with 10 million worldwide beat: the Sega CD (6 million), 3DO (6 million), Atari (4.41 million Jaguars) and Commodore (100,000 CD32s).

With Saturn in North America having 2 million even with Sega of America trying to sabotage Saturn's sales, it would have been possible for Sega of America to sell say 5 million Saturns in North America if they actually pushed the system instead. If SOA in 1997 instead of saying "The Saturn is not our future" but "The Saturn is no longer competing with Playstation and N64 in the mainstream market (the 1997 numbers kinda prevented Sega from really competing), we now consider the Saturn to be the next Neo-Geo (that had only 1 million home consoles worldwide) and will focus on catering to hard core gamers that also have a Playstation/N64" followed that up by doing its best to deliver good games would have prepared the market for Dreamcast more then flushing the Saturn out of the market.

[Mr Smith]

I do only own one of those consles and it's a Dreamcast.

[Black_Tiger]

Saturn, no problem.

I still love Dreamcast, but the Saturn has more of the games I really love. I could survive on a DC and PSO alone though.

As for PS2, I have one and only own three games: TMIII: Namida, Ys I & II Eternal and Sega Ages USA.

[ary incorparated]

I choose Dreamcast ways more multiplayer games and just fun and the nicest play of KOF third strike,the ps2 controller totally sucks for kof games man i hate the dpad of ps2 controller somethimes.DC controller works awesome for fighting games,its large,but heck so is arcade stick,quit nagging.Yakuza anno 2006 cant keep up with shenmue 1 or 2 and those are at least 5 years older,poor ps2 cant keep up with dreamcast in a strange way.

[ary incorparated]

Guilty gear Third stikr Kof games worth mentioning on dreamcast marvel vs capcom capcom vs snk etc,Not worth mentioning in any way on ps2 cause ugly graphics many snk ports fale big time except a few MS5,Samurai showdown 5 with to long loading times,kof 2003 with loading to long kof 2002 loading to long Kof 2000/2001 combo Just crap to small characters to long loading missing stuff and animations look blurred and unclear,the extras dont make up.In all snk port even motw the characters are to small ugly blurry sprites and unclear images as always on psx/ps2,ps2 fail in anyway in 2D compared with dc almost same story as with psx,i have to say the dc controller may be huge but you dont have to hold the entire controller right?,it plays ways better then the ps2 DS does with the ugly independend D pad Yuck i hate the D pad of ps2 at times.all the later snk ports to ps2 Suck big time while they would have been near arcade perfect on DC same for all the cpacom fighters they rule inc DC controller on dc,Third strike theres only one version that makes it own and that the dc version whil aggain ps2 sucks and cant keep up with the Big sprites of DC and the clear 2D.soul calibut DC eats the entire ps2 in graphics.

[nate]

My PS2 library is not complete, so I can't say definitively. I lean toward the Saturn though. I enjoyed the Saturn RPGs much more than the PS2 Final Fantasy's. The Saturn owns multiplayer in a big way as well. The PS2's advantage is in it's huge array of mediocre titles. Tough call.

[Henry Spencer]

The PS2 offers the classic titles from the PSX combined with the follow ups on the PS2; MGS, Devil May Cry, Resi Evil, Final Fantasy, Silent Hill, Time Crisis, Onimusha, Syphon Filter etc ahhh, the greatness of those game series...

Then there is the Saturn with NiGHTS; one of my all time favourite SEGA games, complete with the beginnings of classic arcade titles: Virtua Cop, Virtua Fighter, House Of The Dead and of course; Burning Rangers.

However, I shall leap onto the DC bandwagon for this reason; it has SEGA's Holy Grail, in my opinion of course; the Shenmue games. Not only that, but it is the last console SEGA ever made, and to me, the last ever set of awesome SEGA games - House Of The Dead 2, Crazy Taxi, Sonic Adventure, Jet Set Radio, Confidential Mission, Code Veronica, Ikuragu etc. This brings me to the conclusion that SEGA's final stand is the console for me to own if I had to choose.

[shinobimusashi]

gotta go with the ps2 for the dvd and massive library of high quality games. plus the ps1 backwards compatability(metal gear solid is the best possible game you could have for either of the 4 systems)

[AD2101]

I dunno if this thread will get locked since it's over 3 years expired but I voted Saturn. My PS3 fulfills all my PS2 needs (which are minimal ATM), and I mainly use my DC nowadays with a Saturn pad to play shmups, which were done better on the Saturn to begin with.

[djshok]

I'd go with PS2, I barely consider the Saturn to be a valid system, the thing was just a turd in my eyes and made me stop gaming for years. The DC, while a fine system just doesn't have the impressive library of games that the PS2 has. And if I could only have one system I'd want one that has lots of games available.

[QuickSciFi]

Dreamcast. 'Nough said.

[Guntz]

Lets see:

Saturn - Severe game deficiency, hardware is good.
Dreamcast - Decent game library and the hardware is good.
PS2 - *supposedly* large library of games I don't care to play, I hate the hardware (which includes system, controllers etc).

Hmm... Really tough choice. Would be easier if the poll listed systems I cared about (like the Genesis)...

I'd have to go with Dreamcast. It may not be my favorite, but it at least has good games for it. If writing CD-Rs with boot info was easier (emulators), I'd like it even more.

[gamevet]

I'd go with PS2, I barely consider the Saturn to be a valid system, the thing was just a turd in my eyes and made me stop gaming for years. The DC, while a fine system just doesn't have the impressive library of games that the PS2 has. And if I could only have one system I'd want one that has lots of games available.

The Saturn wasn't nearly as big of a turd as the N64. At least the Saturn had legit RPGs, while the N64 had Quest 64. The Saturn had nearly twice the library of the N64 as well, and a bunch of Sega arcade classics. I didn't import much for the Saturn, because North America got a pretty solid lineup of games as well.


I voted for the PS2; It just has too many great franchises that were either ported to the system, or started out there. It's library is also about 10 times bigger than that of the N64, DC and Saturn combined.

[Deo]

I'd take the White Box from Heaven any day.

[Casselfornia]

The Dreamcast...It has so many near perfect arcade ports! But it was a hard decision between DC and SAT :D

[Speedle]

dreamcast no question about it!

I love the ps2 but the Dreamcast plays Gran Turismo 2 better ;)

[QuickSciFi]

I know this is a revived thread, but I must still argue that the line-up isn't much of a comparison. I chose the DC, but I'd still keep a Saturn and a PS2 by my side. It's like asking:

If you could only have one of these, which one will you choose?

-Atari2600
-Atari Jaguar
-Nintendo Wii

The choices are irrelevant, really. lol.

[acdc]

ps 2
more games so win for me and i can play the ps1 games on it

[djshok]

The Saturn wasn't nearly as big of a turd as the N64. At least the Saturn had legit RPGs, while the N64 had Quest 64. The Saturn had nearly twice the library of the N64 as well, and a bunch of Sega arcade classics. I didn't import much for the Saturn, because North America got a pretty solid lineup of games as well.

That's true. When I stopped gaming because of the Saturn, my best friend got an N64, and that pretty much put the last nail in the coffin on my console gaming interest for a few years.

[GriskaGyoran]

Sega Saturn for me, while Dreamcast dawned a new age of gaming, Saturn will always be #1 for importing and collecting. Also, while those excessively sized jewel boxes are quite crappy, they have a certain charm... and they give the illusion that your collection is bigger than it really is.

[j_factor]

The Saturn wasn't nearly as big of a turd as the N64. At least the Saturn had legit RPGs, while the N64 had Quest 64. The Saturn had nearly twice the library of the N64 as well, and a bunch of Sega arcade classics. I didn't import much for the Saturn, because North America got a pretty solid lineup of games as well.

I don't have anything specific to add to the conversation, but I would like to register my support of the N64 bashing.

[Jesse813]

My Vote is for the Mighty Awesome SEGA Saturn

[MitsuruX]

While i voted Dreamcast... i think all three a good choices.. at the time the DC was Exatly what i was looking for in a console.. great times and great games.. (loved sports/shooters and figthing games at the time!)

[rotkopf]

sega saturn, because it offers a great variety of arcade titles, good pinball games and some very decent sport games. overall a great system to collect games for. also very popular among my friends thanks to bomberman, nba jam t.e., tetris plus, athlete kings and other good multiplayer games.

[MrMatthews]

I picked first the PS2, then my nose.

*wipes hands on pants*

[M4R14NO94]

Dreamcast! I already have a PS2 and I have a Saturn emu (SSF)

[Nunzio]

Dreamcast due to it's wicked emulation abilities, Virtua Tennis and Ikaruga.

[Baloo]

Saturn for sure. You've got all the bases covered:

RPGs - Shining Force III, Panzer Dragoon Saga, Shining the Holy Ark, Dragon Force, Shining Wisdom, Dragon Force, etc.

Beat-Em-Ups - Guardian Heroes, Die Hard Arcade

Racing - Sega Rally Championship, Daytona USA, Sonic R

3D Fighters - Fighters Megamix, Fighting Vipers, Virtua Fighter 2

2D Fighters - X-men Vs. Street Fighter, Street Fighter Collection, Vampire Savior, X-Men Children of the Atom, Street Fighter Alpha 1, 2, and 3, Marvel Super Heroes Vs. Street Fighter

Platformers - Rayman, Astal, Burning Rangers, NiGHTS into Dreams, Sonic Jam, Sonic 3D Blast

Shmups - Darius Gaiden, Radiant Silvergun, Thunder Force V

Sports - NBA Jam T.E, World Series Baseball II, World Series Baseball '98, Madden '97, College Slam

With the Saturn, how can you get bored? And I didn't even mention all the titles I could have.

[Knuckle Duster]

PS2 for me.

I have all 3 systems.

The PS2 has the better library of games & The Saturn to me is a piece of shit.

I have not found 'any' love with the Saturn after buying a handful of 'recommended' games. It's not the expensiveness of collecting for it, I legitimately see nothing fun about playing the games I missed years ago.

[SegaMan89]

Although I love my PS2, I don't think I could live without my Dreamcast (What makes it even better is mines the Black Sports Edition :D)

[TmEE]

Saturn for me, I like it more than Dreamcast when it comes to games... and I've yet to really experience PS2.

[Why-Disciple]

PS2- it doesn't have a retro vibe, but it does have, like, every good game that came out between 2001 and 2006, so...

[ooXxXoo]

Also hate to pick only one between this great machines...I'll have to say the PS2, due to the fact that has PS1 and dvd player compatibility....In the other hand, the PS2 has been the only system that I owned to go capult/ballistic on me when new, no matter how good I took care of it (no wonder they sold so many :roll: )...Therefore, I still pick the Genesis w/ a Master converter :sonic: .....

[shinobimusashi]

yeah genny/cd/32x/pbc all the way!!! what else would a gamer need?

[QuickSciFi]

Yay. DC is winning! :D

[Dunn]

Dreamcast I suppose..

[OldSchool]

Never having owned any of the 3... I'm guessing PS2 would probably satisfy me more than the other 2.

[Splatterhouse5]

Gotta go with the PS2. I could probably spend the next few years exclusively playing PS2 games that I never got around to.