View Full Version : Why Did Sega Abandon Knuckles?
shinobimusashi
10-25-2010, 10:31 PM
Just played a Knuckles level on Sonic Adventure 2, and remembered how popular the character was in my hood around the time of Sonic 3 & Knuckles.
Could Sega have done better with the character?
After S3&k all we got was Knuckles Chaotix. He seemed more up to date compared to the Sonic character which was designed in/around 91, Knuckles had more of an edgy late 90's "stone cold steve austin" attitude, as well as the gameplay possibilities of his trademark gliding and climbing(displayed in sa2 on dc).
Should we have gotten another 32 bit game for the saturn? I think Sega should've taken the opposite route and moved on to Knuckles as its mascot for the saturn, instead of reducing him to a supporting role for sonic(with tails, and a bunch of shit). I think he could've stood up to Crash Bandicoot and the new 3d Mario better than Sonic would've, and definetly better than Nights did.
What about Shadow the Hedgehog? he got an Xbox game, I think Knuckles deserved it more what about you?
GeckoYamori
10-25-2010, 10:35 PM
He just aint down with the kids anymore. We need a new Knuckles game with guns, a covering system, and music with autotuned vocals.
Aarzak
10-25-2010, 11:53 PM
I'm thinking Sega's experiements with Tails, Knuckles and Shadow spin-off games were just one-offs. None of Sonic's friends have the staying power and recognition that said hedgehog has. Nintendo kinda managed to pull it off with Wario though. And there's Luigi's Mansion too.
Zebbe
10-26-2010, 12:33 AM
Because he is more or less a pink Sonic with different gloves and shoes.
Nunzio
10-26-2010, 03:03 AM
Knuckles' attitude was the problem. Look at Sega's marketing for the Genesis, and look at their marketing for the Saturn. Attitude had officially left the building.
Mista_Ed
10-26-2010, 06:05 AM
He just aint down with the kids anymore. We need a new Knuckles game with guns, a covering system, and music with autotuned vocals.
seeeeegaaaaaa
Rusty Venture
10-26-2010, 07:19 AM
He just aint down with the kids anymore. We need a new Knuckles game with guns, a covering system, and music with autotuned vocals.
Shit yeah! Plus we'd get to meey Knuckles' new friends: Hector the Howler-monkey, Steve the Sun bear, and a special cameo by Larry the Llama.
runback22
10-26-2010, 10:49 AM
He just aint down with the kids anymore. We need a new Knuckles game with guns, a covering system, and music with autotuned vocals.
Think Vanquish with Knuckles as the main character = PURE EPICNESS
old man
10-26-2010, 02:54 PM
Shit yeah! Plus we'd get to meey Knuckles' new friends: Hector the Howler-monkey, Steve the Sun bear, and a special cameo by Larry the Llama.
Don't forget Big Boobs the badger. She's saucy with a fiery temper.
Elusive
10-26-2010, 07:28 PM
We need a new Knuckles game with guns, a covering system, and music with autotuned vocals.
I would play the shit out of that.
*rummages through creepy fanart collection*
http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/7262/c93d03cb563a1ea3515f726.jpg
I like how Knuckles' back-story was hinted at in Sonic Adventure, but kept brief for the sake of the gameplay. Remember, at the end of his story in SA, he soliloquises about how 'he still doesn't have all the answers - but maybe it's better that way'. And I agree! Having only the most basic of canons means that there's lots of room for different stories to be told, again meaning the gameplay can come to the fore. Speedy blue guy jumps on the fat red guy's robots. Add a goofy hair-metal soundtrack and a tropical 1-1, bake for eighteen months, release.
(ah, but on the other hand, Chronicles had a rather thorough plot line set out ... but who's to say that that can't be handwaved away in the future? if it's even brought up at all?)
Rusty Venture
10-26-2010, 07:46 PM
How does a non-mammal have mammaries?
WhereEaglesDare
10-28-2010, 07:01 PM
How does a non-mammal have mammaries?
Magic??
Rusty Venture
10-28-2010, 07:03 PM
UNPOSSIBLE!
kool kitty89
10-28-2010, 09:10 PM
How does a non-mammal have mammaries?
Implants...
sheath
10-28-2010, 09:55 PM
That picture above is awesome, and so is this thread.
I think Knuckles should be remade into ... a Batman Arkham Asylum clone. Just imagine it, hovering around levels, big huge brass knuckles, ditch the big head little body mascot image, it could work.
That is, it might have worked if Secret Level was still making updates for Sega.
shinobimusashi
10-28-2010, 10:06 PM
a Knuckles beatem up/platformer with gliding and climbing? hell yeah!
The Jackal
10-29-2010, 02:45 PM
When I was playing through Sonic Unleashed, I kept thinking to myself: why did they have the "werehog"; why wasn't Knuckles playable instead? It makes sense; he is supposed to be the tough guy...
Werehog levels were the only good ones in Sonic Unleashed.... daytime ones only because good once you had everything memorized
The Jackal
10-29-2010, 03:07 PM
I liked the night-time stages too, but I still think Knux was better suited for them.
He does like punching... lot of levels need to be different though, no stretchy arms and you can glide...
kool kitty89
10-29-2010, 10:24 PM
Werehog levels were the only good ones in Sonic Unleashed.... daytime ones only because good once you had everything memorized
On the Wii/PS2 or HD versions?
Anyway, that's the exact same complaint my little brother has: warehog is OK, daytime levels are tedious, especially if you're into 100%/perfect runs like he is. (which is why he's not thrilled about Colors... given the apparent similarities to Unleashed)
The only 3D sonic games I've seen that I absolutely can't stand are the on-rails Wii ones... (especially Secret Rings' wiimote only motion control)
I haven't tried any version of STH'06, but that's generally seen as really buggy (aside from the storyline/characters...).
For me and the 3D sonic games it's probably SA2/A2B>SA/DX>Shadow>Heroes (might be better than Shadow, need to play again, but I remember Shadow feeling more like SA2 and it does have 4 player split screen vs) and then probably Unleashed followed by '06(?) and SR/BN.
I wouldn't count 3D Blast in there at all, really a different sort of game, same for R, but I haven't played that anyway.
I have no idea how Wii/PS2 versions are, I've only played the X360 game.
There's way too many ways to die, actually one single way, just its everywhere (bottomless pits), and it completely ruins the game for me. The stages got good after you have mastered them, but before achieving that they suck....
kool kitty89
10-30-2010, 08:52 PM
The Wii/PS2 versions have totally different levels and start off easier (with pretty much all the power-ups you have to later earn in the 360/PS3 game), it also replaces the tedious wandering town missions with a simple map/overworld display you use to talk to NPCs.
And it has GC controller support as well, thankfully.
QuickSciFi
10-30-2010, 10:06 PM
How about this one, instead of adding werehog levels, how about knuckles levels. Oh, to think what could've been...
gamegenie
10-31-2010, 07:28 AM
Because he is more or less a pink Sonic with different gloves and shoes.
pink? I think you mean red and he has dreadlocks. :D
gamegenie
10-31-2010, 07:31 AM
In the beginning I didn't quite understood the need for the Rastafarian-like Knuckles character either because I always saw Sonic as that hip character carrying all the qualities of coolness. This was sort of exemplified when the first two animated series of the game came out further highlighting Sonic's cool personality and wit through the use of Jaleel White as the voice actor of our blue hero.
Baloo
11-01-2010, 11:19 PM
IMO, Knuckles was great until Sonic Adventure. Then he became this goofy "Protector of the sacred universe" shit that was lame. It totally destroyed his edginess and turned him into some kind of guard with a stick up his ass. The whole concept of Knuckles Chaotix was great, but it was totally wasted due to the way they handled the 32x and Saturn. What the fuck Sega?!
IMO, he should be more like Wario than what he is now. He should be trying to one-up Sonic and edge him on, not some shmuck running around looking for gems.
Mr Smith
11-02-2010, 04:19 AM
There's only a limited amount of time that running around collecting Emerald shards is interesting for.
I think Knuckles merely got lost in Sonic Teams obsession for giving Sonic 4,000,000 new friends with each game, plus the whole Shadow the Hedgehog thing seemed to cause Knuckles to fade into the background.
The Jackal
11-03-2010, 04:51 PM
How about this one, instead of adding werehog levels, how about knuckles levels. Oh, to think what could've been...
Didn't I just post the same thing above? :daze:
the have to ban every single character they made after tails
only sonic and tails is more then enough
just like all the other sonic games more and more stupid characters are joining
just with the game sega allstar racing 5 or 6 characters are sonic related
stop with that crap
Lastcallhall
11-04-2010, 12:46 PM
Word on the street is that after Knuckles' arrest for the alleged rape of Robin Givens, SEGA wanted to distance themselves from the character. However, it has been proven that the Givens debacle happened a year after SEGA came to this decision, which really was due to A) Knuckles losing the World Heavyweight Championship, and B) SEGA's licencing agreement with Knuckles had expired. SEGA felt that the Sonic series was strong enough to stand on it's own at that point, and subsequently replaced Knuckles with a plethora of generic, forgettable characters.
:cool:
sheath
11-04-2010, 02:34 PM
^ Woulda given rep for the above if I coulda.
On another note, I think the majority of "inner city urban types" moved almost exclusively to the Playstations sometime around 1997-8. Also, Shadow is a much more identifiable "anti-hero" type than Knuckles is, he just seemed confused and "honorable". Who can identify with that? ;)
NeoVamp
11-04-2010, 02:50 PM
Also, Shadow is a much more identifiable "anti-hero" type than Knuckles is, he just seemed confused and "honorable".
Who can identify with that? ;)
Stupid people who need their characters "pre-chewed"
In real life there is no black and white, and that was why Knuckles was a cool character,
here you got this guy who first appears as the Anti-Sonic, thwarting him everywhere he went.
until you realize that that Robotnik lied to him and all he wants is to protect the master emerald.
and then came Shadow, omg he's black Sonic with a dark past and guns and a bike, oh and he's so confused about his existence.. no Shadow don't cut yourself again! we all love you! you're just.. oh such an anti-hero!
Fuck Sega and Fuck Shadow.
sheath
11-04-2010, 03:01 PM
Hahah! While I thought Shadow was okay (aside from the rocket skates) I did kind of wonder why he was created. This is, of course, way before the excessive side character creation trend outside of the cartoons and Knuckles Chaotix... oh crap.
Anyway. Somehow Crash Bandicoot marketed and slowly hopped and walked his way into the screen to overshadow Sonic & Knuckles pretty early on. Sonic Adventure sold better than anything on the Dreamcast outside of the NFK2K games though. So having a good-bad Sonic series of levels, along with (in my opinion) very well done exploration levels with Knuckles/whatsername and mech levels with Tails/Robotnik made gameplay I have played been amused by for a decade now.
I haven't liked anything since SA2 though, even though I muscled my way through Sonic '06.
Chilly Willy
11-04-2010, 04:34 PM
Actually, an Anti-Sonic would be exactly the same as regular Sonic, but with a beard. Everyone knows that! ;) :D
sheath
11-04-2010, 05:03 PM
Before Shadow, I always imagined an anti-sonic as a future sonic with a six-oclock shadow and a weather worn backpack. He would have been reluctant to run and moody, but had the experience to find the crap he needed to beat the hell out of anybody who came in his way. ;)
NeoVamp
11-04-2010, 05:19 PM
http://img204.imageshack.us/img204/5461/slowpokesonic.jpg
Here's the real anti Sonic.
ceramiclion
11-04-2010, 07:12 PM
knuckles lost his edge because his gameplay sucked in 3d games. In sonic and knuckles he was clook cuz he could glide and climb up on walls. Also, in sonic 3 he acted like a bastard and that was likable.
Gliding and climbing around that canyon level in Sonic Adventure was pretty cool.
shinobimusashi
11-04-2010, 07:28 PM
Stupid people who need their characters "pre-chewed"
In real life there is no black and white, and that was why Knuckles was a cool character,
here you got this guy who first appears as the Anti-Sonic, thwarting him everywhere he went.
until you realize that that Robotnik lied to him and all he wants is to protect the master emerald.
and then came Shadow, omg he's black Sonic with a dark past and guns and a bike, oh and he's so confused about his existence.. no Shadow don't cut yourself again! we all love you! you're just.. oh such an anti-hero!
Fuck Sega and Fuck Shadow.
I very highly agree with this post^
Rusty Venture
11-04-2010, 08:12 PM
and then came Shadow, omg he's black Sonic with a dark past and guns and a bike, oh and he's so confused about his existence.. no Shadow don't cut yourself again! we all love you! you're just.. oh such an anti-hero!
Fuck Sega and Fuck Shadow.
The only thing worse than an anti-Sonic is an emo anti-Sonic.
And everyone forgets that Sonic 2 included an anti-Sonic...remember Metal Sonic?
jerry coeurl
11-04-2010, 09:06 PM
That's Mecha Sonic! The only classic Sonic game that Metal Sonic appeared in was Sonic CD.
But yeah, I don't know why they had to invent a new Anti-Sonic when Dr. Robotnik's lab was presumably already littered with them...
gamegenie
11-04-2010, 09:21 PM
Hahah! While I thought Shadow was okay (aside from the rocket skates) I did kind of wonder why he was created. This is, of course, way before the excessive side character creation trend outside of the cartoons and Knuckles Chaotix... oh crap.
Anyway. Somehow Crash Bandicoot marketed and slowly hopped and walked his way into the screen to overshadow Sonic & Knuckles pretty early on. Sonic Adventure sold better than anything on the Dreamcast outside of the NFK2K games though. So having a good-bad Sonic series of levels, along with (in my opinion) very well done exploration levels with Knuckles/whatsername and mech levels with Tails/Robotnik made gameplay I have played been amused by for a decade now.
I haven't liked anything since SA2 though, even though I muscled my way through Sonic '06.
nah, Shadow is part of the generation that started the worthless Sonic side creations, it all happened during the Dreamcast era, and when when the original Sonic Team split right after the 1st Sonic Adventure. It's all chronicled on Wikipedia.
Really the Anti Sonic wasn't even Knuckles, although I agree they should have kept him as he was in Sonic 3 (or Triple Trouble for Game Gear fans), as a frienemy of Sonic.
The real anti-Sonic was Metal Sonic, i.e. Sonic CD.
What SEGA could have done, was after Sonic 3 (& Knuckles) made a
Sonic 64 for Saturn that would appear to the masses like a sequel of Sonic 3, but be Sonic's first venture to 3D. Ala like Super Mario 64 being mario's first 3D venture. But the story of Sonic 64 would be a sequel to Sonic CD.
Rusty Venture
11-04-2010, 10:36 PM
I hope this theoretical "Sonic 64" doesn't include lame, tacked on time travel elements.
jerry coeurl
11-05-2010, 03:21 AM
If you don't like Sonic CD that's one thing, but the Time Travel element is hardly "tacked-on." The whole game is designed around it, especially if you want to see/hear everything it has to offer.
Rusty Venture
11-05-2010, 07:19 AM
Sonic time travels to the past to essentially flip a switch, I call that wasted potential.
sheath
11-05-2010, 10:48 AM
Sonic CD allows you to go into the past, which has fewer enemies than the present and bad future. This alone can be used for faster speed runs. Then you can destroy a roboticizer and a hologram of Metal Sonic kicking an animal. This then allows you to travel back to the present or future and have no enemies even further facilitation a faster speed run. Then there is the different music tracks, many of which are individually worth listening to.
jerry coeurl
11-05-2010, 01:20 PM
Sonic time travels to the past to essentially flip a switch, I call that wasted potential.
Well, that's not exactly the same thing as being tacked-on. Anyway, you're given 2 to 4 versions of each level, each with a remixed/completely different bgm and different graphics and level layout. If you want to see everything the game has to offer (which extends your playtime by quite a bit), then you have to use the Time Travel element.
And if you don't want to? Well, then you don't have to. If you do, however, it adds a ton of replayability. It really forces you to learn the levels, find the best spots to jump back and forth through time, not to mention the exploration to find the Badnik Generator and Metal Sonic Hologram.
To me, the "get all the Time Stones" thing feels more tacked-on than anything else. Like they realized at the last minute that not everyone was gonna bother making a Good Future in each zone just to get the good ending. "Alright, yeah, you can just get the Time Stones instead." But again, I don't see how giving you multiple ways of achieving something is a bad thing. It just gives you more of a reason to go back and try it a different way. Options are great, yo.
Rusty Venture
11-05-2010, 07:37 PM
Well, that's not exactly the same thing as being tacked-on.
You're right.
Anyway, you're given 2 to 4 versions of each level, each with a remixed/completely different bgm and different graphics and level layout. If you want to see everything the game has to offer (which extends your playtime by quite a bit), then you have to use the Time Travel element.
It isn't "tacked on" its an unfulfilling use of time travel that serves to artificially extend what is essentially a short game.
With the space that CD's had, we should have got a game with actual branching paths/levels, not remixed versions of every level.
mick_aka
11-05-2010, 07:46 PM
Why Did Sega Abandon Knuckles?
Because he was shit.
/thread
Mr Smith
11-06-2010, 05:29 AM
You're right.
It isn't "tacked on" its an unfulfilling use of time travel that serves to artificially extend what is essentially a short game.
With the space that CD's had, we should have got a game with actual branching paths/levels, not remixed versions of every level.
I agree with Rusty. The time travel elements didn't dramatically expand the game and at times felt like a chore to run back into the past to get the good ending. I remember reading an article back in the day that stated Sonic CD has over 100 levels! Now if the game had 100 levels then that would be awesome, instead of the "remixed versions of every level".
jerry coeurl
11-06-2010, 04:09 PM
To each his own. I like that they did something different, personally, and I think the game is very good, though it doesn't quite reach the lofty heights set by the Genesis games.
I really like that it has a Time Attack mode too that actually saves your scores. That's something that all the Sonic games should have had, I think.
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