TMNT: Hyperstone Heist V Turtles in Time

[16bitter]

As posited by j-factor:


Complete and utter bollocks. I think most of us here agree that TMNT IV is a better game than Hyperstone Heist.

Is he right? Is he wrong?

Let's find out.

[Kollision]

He's wrong.

[djshok]

I find them both to be about equal. Can't say I really prefer one over the other, both are fun.

[oldmanwinters]

Sega-16 did a feature on the battle of the 16-bit TMNT games a while back:
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9678

Is this thread some kind of response to a comment in that thread? Seems like unnecessary clutter... and petty.

[-RT]

He's wrong. TMNT IV has bad collision detection, ugly graphics and not quite good music. And it's slow as heck.

[MrMatthews]

Just based on conversations I've seen around here, I'd venture to guess that he's probably correct. Remember that he's not necessarily arguing for himself which is a better game, just that most people would prefer Turtles in Time.

But if Rusty doesn't vote, this poll doesn't count.

[kokujin]

HH wins, but not by much.I wish HH had a Neon Night Riders stage, I would have loved to hear that song on the Genesis.

[zetastrike]

I don't think I've ever been torn about a game like I am about HH. On one hand, it's good game that plays well, but on the other hand I'm disgusted by the sheer lack of effort/thought Konami put into it. It's as if they put all their resources into TMNT 4 and cranked out HH at the last minute. The levels are too chopped up and make no sense. Like first you're in the sewer, then the street, then back down into the sewer. Then you're on the surfboard, a pirate ship, then a cave. I do like stage 3 as its the only original one in the game. The gauntlet stage is a complete joke. Instead of a new level, they just make us fight the same three bosses we JUST fought (not even new ones) in the same boring cave we were just in during stage 2. They could have given it some sort of Neon Night Riders stage using warping roads and parallax scenery. The Technodrome stage is completely lifted from TMNT 4. I also think the colors are dull and drab. The music is excellent, admittedly. The entire game just screams "half assed".

[oldskool]

They are both good games, but I personally think the graphics and music are much better on Turtles in Time. Not only that, but the controls are at least equal to Hyperstone Heist, so I'd say that Turtles in Time wins.

Still need to pick me up a copy of Hyperstone Heist or Turtles in Time one of these days. For some reason, those games have eluded me for 15 years now.

[GeckoYamori]

Haven't played any of them for a long time. I recall HH had improved/alternate running mechanics, but it was hella short compared to Turtles In Time.

Both of them are about equal in sound. The arcade original uses a mix of samples and FM synthesis. The SNES version naturally handles things like orchestra hits better, and the instrumentation overall sounds better than the average SNES soundtrack, but the voice samples are washed out like hell. The Genesis handles the FM parts equally good with that nice, fatter sound. It also even plays the sampled orchestra hits and the voices sound closer to the arcade, albeit the samples are much noisier than usual (my uneducated guess is that they use a very low bitrate).

Overall, the presentation of Hyperstone Heist held up well but it felt like they could have put much more effort into the actual game.

[sheath]

Just to muddy the waters, here is my really old TMNT:HSH/IV comparison video. (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/sites/default/files/TMNTcomp/TMNTComp001.AVI)

It's 78.4 MB and requires DIVX (preferably 6.8 or above if I recall). I also have the entire soundtrack of both and higher bitrate/larger individual gameplay files that I could be pressed to link.

[The Coop]

As stated elsewhere...


I like the music in TMNT:THH more, as I feel the synths fit better and don't suffer from that awful sample cut off that TMNT:TiT has. I also think the music feels... fuller, in THH. And while I could be wrong, THH seems like it plays a bit faster.

However, I think THH also feels like a half-hearted attempt at a new game, using bits and pieces of TMNT:TiT, where as TiT feels like a complete and more cohesive game than THH. So I'd put the two on about even ground for me.

[oldskool]

As stated elsewhere...

Very interesting video comparo. Not sure if it's the emulators or not, but the SNES version seems more pixelated which can't be true.

One thing you have to admit, is that even though the SNES version sounds good, the SNES has always suffered from that muffled sound. Even if the samples on the Genesis are not as good, at least it's loud and clear.

I think the two are pretty damn close to be honest. I've played them both, and enjoy them both a lot.

[sheath]

You're quoting somebody else, but I'm assuming you are looking at my video. Both vids are captured from the same video capture card using the Composite outs of the real hardware (Genesis 1 Sega CD1 32X AV/ SNES AV)

[Thenewguy]

I think I can see what you're doing here, but personally I would've chosen Sunset Riders or Zombies Ate My Neighbours to see whether the point was valid or not.

(Either that or you did, actually just want to make a poll about TiT and HH, at which point I choose TiT, but then, I probably would've picked Castlevania 4 in the other thread anyway)

[Christuserloeser]

Well, Turtles in Time is the original, and Hyperstone Heist is the port, so Turtles in Time should be the better game... but I prefer the music in the Mega Drive / Genesis version so that got my vote.

But then again the first level in HH is absolutely terrible! I mean what could be more off-putting than starting the game in a sewer? Imagine Streets of Rage 2 would start in a fucking sewer!

[Hiarcs]

Never tried the Genesis version, the SNES one its one of my favorites games ever (specially multiplayer mode), but i cant assume its better than Genesis one, i will give it a try soon.

[Olls]

He is right.

[cowboyscowboys]

Ridiculous TiT by a wide margin. This is beyond being a homer voting for HH.

Own both games HH is ok for a change up every now and then. But put it simple compared to TiT HH is a "B Movie"

[CMA Death Adder]

Hyperstone Heist FTW. Why?

1). Better soundtrack than the SNES version.
2). It's on the Genesis.

Cowabunga!

[KALuther]

TMNTIV was just a better game, str8^

[roundwars]

I think I can see what you're doing here, but personally I would've chosen Sunset Riders or Zombies Ate My Neighbours to see whether the point was valid or not.

Isn't ZAMN more or less the same on both systems? I haven't actually played it but that's what I've heard.

In any case I would have chosen Rock & Roll Racing.

[Olls]

ZAMN and R&RR are both clearly inferior on the Genesis. More so than the outcome of a comparison between HH and TiT, so it would've been pointless. Although I'm pretty sure that people here will find reasons to bash the SNES titles anyway.

ZAMN for one simple reason: the ridiculous black sidebar that takes up 1/3 of the screen. Also, the SNES version has one more weapon as well as a bonus level.
R&RR for the awful music (just compare the SNES music with the genesis versions), and the announcer that interrupts it constantly. For a 1994 game, that's unacceptable.

Sunset Riders: not too sure about this one.

[j_factor]

I'd just like to point out that this was just an example I pulled out of my ass. The merits of these two games have no bearing on the point I was making, and I'm actually not super keen on these games, I'd just recalled people here saying TMNT IV was better.

But, as of now Turtles in Time is ahead. So I don't think you can say we're unwilling to vote for an SNES game over a Genesis game.

Also, I voted for Turtles in Time. I guess I'm a ham-fisted Sega fanboy when it comes to Castlevania, but my bias mysteriously dissipates when the Turtles are brought in. Or something.

Although, I do prefer the Genesis version of Zombies Ate My Neighbors. But not Sunset Riders or Rock & Roll Racing.

[oldskool]

I am a Sega fanatic myself, but I am not ashamed to admit if a SNES game is better than the Genesis version.

[Phantar]

Turtles in time was flashier and lasted longer
Hyperstone Heist had better sound and somehow felt smoother

When encountering both games first, I was drawn to the better looks of the SNES-Version. Over time, I've grown to like the gameplay of the Genesis version more. But then again, I'm miffed about the levels cut from the game, which would give the SNES-version the advantage once more...

Bottom line: I'm undecided, I really am! Why did they have to cut/rearrange levels for the Genesis version? The ultimate version would be all the levels of Hyperstone Heist combined with the gameplay of the Genesis version... I'd even accept inferior looks and sounds for that (Foot soldiers flying at the screen gets old fast...)

Well, at least both versions are way better than the botched remake for PS3...

[A Black Falcon]

The only Konami franchises as good on Genesis as on SNES were Rocket Knight and Contra (I like Contra: Hard Corps more than Contra 3, better gameplay and design, and impressive graphics too)... Sunset Riders, Tiny Toon Adventures, TMNT, and Castlevania are all very much worse on the Genesis. In all four cases it's not even remotely close...

In this case though, I agree with the comments that Hyperstone Heist is just incredibly lazy. At least it's not flat-out terrible, like TMNT: Tournament Fighters Genesis (the SNES game is one of the best beat 'em ups of the generation, but the Genesis game is AWFUL!), but it's extremely bland, generic and lacking. It's short, has few levels, has little variety at best, all the areas are ripped straight out of past TMNT games, etc, etc. The game's just boring, HH is the least fun of any 8 or 16 bit TMNT beat 'em up I've played. It's not bad or anything, it's got almost none of the unique and interesting features that made TMNT: The Arcade Game (arcade and NES vers.), TMNT: Turtles in Time (arcade and SNES vers.), and TMNT III: The Manhattan Project (NES) so, so great.

Design: There are very few levels. They go on for a while each, but still, this is a very short game. Five levels isn't much, and this game won't take you long. And as was said earlier, there's even a bossrush where you play the old bosses again, even though it's so short that seeing them again already is pretty lame.

Graphics: Rehash, pretty much 100%. Boring! Also, there's some bizarre stuff like the blue floor in some sewer areas. Why is the ground blue? It's not really water, because you can walk on it without any splash animation, sinking in, or anything. Either the Turtles have magic levitation powers we don't know about, or the designers were just unbelievably lazy. No other Turtles beat 'em up is so stupid, in the other games water acts like it should. Just play TMNT III' sewer level to see what I mean.

Level design: AWFUL for a TMNT beat 'em up! Seriously, this game has the blandest, most generic level designs ever. You walk right. You stop. Enemies walk in from the sides. You beat them up. You walk right again. You stop. Enemies walk in from the sides. You beat them up. You walk right again. You stop. Enemies walk in from the sides. You beat them up. You walk right again. You stop. Enemies walk in from the sides. You beat them up. You walk right again. You stop. Enemies walk in from the sides. You beat them up.

OTHER TURTLES BEAT 'EM UPS ARE NOT LIKE THIS! Seriously, play The Manhattan Project, particularly, though the arcade games have a lot of this too. Yes, you walk right, but you also go up or down sometimes, and TMNT III particularly has fantastic, varied level designs and enemy locations. Enemies come out of the sewer, they come through windows, they appear as statues which reveal themselves as enemies as you pass, they jump from above, they come from behind signs, and, sometimes, they come from the front of back. It's varied and always interesting. The levels themselves are just as good, with obstacles, jumps to make, that great sewer, and more. There are also the requisite beat 'em up elevator areas. Hyperstone Heist has a halfhearted effort at this at the end, with the Technodrome, but it's not anywhere remotely near enough. The level designs in HH are a huge step down from TMNT III, and a sizable step down from either arcade game as well. Konami just wasn't trying very hard with this one.

Story: It's half TMNT III, half Turtles in Time. Mix part of one and part of the other, regurgitate this.

The music was okay, but with all those other flaws, it's a pretty minor point. Overall Hyperstone Heist isn't a bad game or something. It is fun to play through, because it's a Turtles beat 'em up and competently done. It's just unambitious, bland, generic, and seriously lacking compared to the other 8 and 16 bit TMNT beat 'em ups, and that's why I find it pretty disappointing. Still I'd probably give it a B- or something anyway, because it is okay... it's just that the other ones are better than that by a good margin.

[Thenewguy]

I was going to avoid getting into this thread but god-damn do you guys like to exaggerate.

The differences between TiT and HH are noticeable but minor, the idea that one is clearly better than the other (to the level that choosing HH automatically makes you biased) is retarded, the two games are effectively the same game with different backgrounds 90% of the way through anyway, both are way too short, I completed both of those games within a day of buying them, HH is faster, TiT has better presentation, its a marginal win to TiT in my opinion

Castlevania IV and Bloodlines are both good games, both have a different style of music, different atmosphere, and different level designs, they are not comparable at all so personal taste is always going to be a factor, my only problem with Bloodlines is that it can be a bit unpolished at times, which is why I would go with Castlevania IV.

I mentioned the thread should be about either Sunset Riders or Zombies because the point of this thread was to see if people around here will automatically give the win to Sega everytime, and those two games are not arguable, the only reason to vote for the Sega versions is nostalgia, bias, or lack of experience.

Also the Tiny Toon Adventures game on the SNES is not only worse than the Genesis one, its a pretty bad game in general, one long crappy memory test, with constant stops to play really boring mini games, bad controls, and terrible level designs and bosses (which are clearly just designed with the focus to look impressive and so end up playing badly), the Genesis one may not be big on originality, but its a nice, fast, and responsive traditional platforming game with decent graphics and a password save etc :D.


Isn't ZAMN more or less the same on both systems? I haven't actually played it but that's what I've heard.No, the two games play pretty equally well, but the Genesis version has downgraded colours, a squashed viewing area (no transparent map), terrible sound effects, and is missing the flamethrower (I think)

[sheath]

Hyperstone has 12 level segments of the same length and greater difficulty than Turtles in Time's 10 distinct levels which have no segments. Hyperstone has more enemies on screen and several more frames of animation per character than the SNES game does, which makes Hyperstone seem smoother especially while running and fighting. I really enjoy listening to both soundtracks and consider them roughly equal.

I do wish that if Konami wanted to make a remix of previous games, they would have at least included some of the original's levels like the burning building. What we got on the Genesis though is at least as lengthy, and at least arguably better in gameplay. Of the home turtles beat-em ups, I would put Hyperstone on par with Turtles in Time and well above the NES games and the original arcade game. But, I am a beat-em up fanatic and tend to over-emphasize actual gameplay over "presentation." No vote for me.

-edit-

I posted the soundtracks anyway:
TMNT IV SNES (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/content/turtles-time-soundtrack)
Hyperstone Heist (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/content/hyperstone-heist-soundtrack)

I will also be updating the book pages later, so no gripes about the gallery pages not linking. ;)

[oldskool]

On a side note, has anyone played TMNT for the Gameboy Advance? Damn fine beat em' up. I personally think it's one of the best 2D TMNT games out there.

[sheath]

Isn't it a side-scroller only (no up down movement)? Other than that, I like it quite a bit. I need to fire it up on the GBA-Gamecube player again.

[oldmanwinters]

I thought everybody might enjoy seeing a vintage Hyperstone Heist advertisement! Boy, Konami sure knew how to hype up a game back in the day!

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/TMNT/GenesisHyperstoneHeist_advertisements.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22047800@N07/5149519183/


I have a real soft spot for Hyperstone Heist, since it was one of the first 4 Genesis games I got and really demonstrated how cool 16-bit graphics could be when all you were used to were 8-bit NES carts.

Still... in retrospect I think SNES Turtles in Time is the more entertaining game overall. Sorry...

[Jesse813]

My Vote is for Hyperstone Heist since its definitely the better game :cool:

[Hiarcs]

I thought everybody might enjoy seeing a vintage Hyperstone Heist advertisement! Boy, Konami sure knew how to hype up a game back in the day!

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/TMNT/GenesisHyperstoneHeist_advertisements.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/22047800@N07/5149519183/


I have a real soft spot for Hyperstone Heist, since it was one of the first 4 Genesis games I got and really demonstrated how cool 16-bit graphics could be when all you were used to were 8-bit NES carts.

Still... in retrospect I think SNES Turtles in Time is the more entertaining game overall. Sorry...

Damn, thats a great old-school gaming ad, I still swear that those classics ads beats most "modern" ones anytime.

[Hidden_Darkness]

their both about equal for me but for nostalgic reasons I pick hyperstone heist.

[oldmanwinters]

thats a great old-school gaming ad, I still swear that those classics ads beats most "modern" ones anytime.

And here's the SNES advertisements!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/412614725/in/photostream/
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/TMNT/412999882_20563ab4c8_o.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/412999882/in/photostream/
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/TMNT/412999883_ccca726267_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/412999883/in/faves-22047800@N07/

[cowboyscowboys]

Poll results on Snes-16.com

TiT 35
HH 0

Well at least they got it right.

[oldmanwinters]

Poll results on Snes-16.com

TiT 35
HH 0

Well at least they got it right.

Lol, it would be so true! SNES are so terribly biased; they are suckers for bright colors on a TV screen!:rofl:

But in this case... yes, they would be right.:)

[Hiarcs]

And here's the SNES advertisements!
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/412614725/in/photostream/
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/TMNT/412999882_20563ab4c8_o.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/412999882/in/photostream/
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a56/slimer2erasmus/TMNT/412999883_ccca726267_b.jpg
http://www.flickr.com/photos/terrible2z/412999883/in/faves-22047800@N07/

A delight, thanx for the sources!

[MrMatthews]

On a side note, has anyone played TMNT for the Gameboy Advance? Damn fine beat em' up. I personally think it's one of the best 2D TMNT games out there.

I agree: gameplay-wise, it's better than either of the two games in question. Content-wise, it's kind of lacking. I would have preferred to see an identical game centered around established TMNT characters, rather than the boring crap the movie served up.

Ubisoft had another shot at this with Arcade Attack on the DS. It sucked.

[16bitter]

Of the home turtles beat-em ups, I would put Hyperstone on par with Turtles in Time and well above the NES games and the original arcade game.

Of course you do.

I'd expect nothing more from the guy that asserts that the 32X version of Doom is the "best console version" or that MKII on Genesis is equal to the SNES rev.


But, I am a beat-em up fanatic and tend to over-emphasize actual gameplay over "presentation." No vote for me.


So funny. You act as if this genre, or at least these games within it, are somehow gameplay-intensive in such a manner that you could have a single screen and still have a great (or good, or passable) game.

These games are not iterations of 'Samurai Showdown' or 'Street Fighter III'; you've got an attack button, a jump button and a d-pad. In the case of the Genesis game, you also have one for run -- ooh, complex!

They're not even, say, 'Streets of Rage 3' or somesuch, which does attempt some diversification (complication) of input standards and gameplay through that.

Considering this, what makes the TMNT series compelling? Pacing. A sense of style by way of setpieces. Level design is key.

That's where the arcade originals, 'Manhattan Project' and the buffed-up home port 'Turtles in Time' shine. And that's where 'Hyperstone Heist' curls up like a frightened turtle.

Abysmal level design. Just atrocious.

The setpieces are either poorly placed, or nonexistent for long stretches, compounded by level structure that is bloated.

Just compare the two games' opening levels. 'Turtles in Time' opens on a skyscraper, a real showstopper that is paced brilliantly by interactive objects that essay the action, both in the foreground and background; from the wrecking ball to Krang's towering, laser-shooting android body, the level is exciting and dynamic.

Full of ideas, and paced perfectly. It has a brevity about it, a sense of keeping the gameplay moving to the next idea.

It's a superior beat 'em up on the scale of showmanship. It's witty and it's quick. It's a great action game, under these standards.

Then there's Hyperstone Heist. Which opens in a sewer. And not the sewers of 'Turtles in Time' or 'The Manhattan Project' -- both of which have unique gameplay ideas, relative to the rest of their respective games' level designs -- but rather an interminable, flat thing with no back or foreground imagination (no integration of theme into gameplay gimmickry) that simply moves right against a tortuously long, and repetitious, brown wall.

The fact that the designers padded out the level's length only adds to the tedium. Ground level is nothing more than a dumbed down -- that is, stripped of its verve and ideas -- level two from 'Turtles in Time'.

Then, back to the sewer. Where the turtles now...walk on water?!! Darwinism+Christianity? No, just shitty programming. This game was outsourced to those ten-thousand monkeys at type-writers, by the looks of it.

Point is, that style often is substance. These games are great because of their visual artistry and design on a strata the player can interact, with new a idea not just being presented in each stage but sometimes each screen.

'Turtles in Time' by way of its time travel gimmick, plays with this brilliantly. So does its arcade forebear along with the NES games ('Manhattan Project' might be the best designed Konami brawler, period).

'Hyperstone Heist' feels like an afterthought. Because it is.

The TMNT games are not 'Tetris'. To pretend that they could be enjoyed on a level-free playing field is about as ridiculous as it gets. This is not a weakness. Contiguous/sidescrolling backgrounds was/were an innovation, leading to some of the best games in history. What good 'Mario 3', one of the very finest games ever created, would be without this is a mystery. Its gameplay depth is level-design and interaction.

That's the same with Konami TMNT games. But 'Hyperstone Heist' seems bored with this idea, while offering no alternative.

[Christuserloeser]

Well, the sewer level sucks, but the game plays and sounds better in my humble opinion. The Super Nintendo version definitely looks better though.

[16bitter]

Well, the sewer level sucks, but the game plays [...] better in my humble opinion.

I think that this series' gameplay is so directly tied to the aforementioned level design that it's hard to believe that.

The pacing is really bad. Even beyond level structure, at least to the side of dynamism in interactive props, comes the problem of how the designers decided to have the player interact with the Foot Clan, particularly on the hardest difficulty.

It takes too long, from my experience, to advance screens. More enemy packs are sent for each, and they take more hits to kill.

This noticeably slows down the game, giving it a negative sense of stillness. Players get restless playing it, which is a big no-no for an action-intensive game (at least advertised), on the supposed action-heavy system of its generation.

[tony]

I found HH to be a letdown after playing Turtles in Time. It was one of the few games I owned for my Genesis back in the day. I agree with 16bitter here. The presentation in Turtles in Time and especially the beginning really made the Genesis one appear dull. Still a decent game and I enjoyed it a lot more playing with my old friend Marc.

[sheath]

16bitter,

It is very unfortunate that these forums don't actually "kill" posts from people I have killfiled. I do eventually end up checking out a line or two and then completely regretting having any hope that you would straighten out.

Your entire reply to me ignores all facts, that is you simply do not cite any. Well, I suppose that you mention there are sewer levels in Hyperstone, and that turtles appear to walk on water in one of them. Those are facts, so there you are.

You seem to think that your individual enjoyment is universal. This isn't an uncommon thing, it's called hubris and stupidity. Congratulations, you like something better than another and most completely inane mass market consumers would agree with your posts.

Wow, I am impressed that you can write a description of a game like a food critic describes a soup.

Now for your troll efforts about gamepilgrimage. Show me one place, even in the archive section of the website where I even attempt to claim that Sega should have dominated, was the best at console development/marketing, or any other common claim that, in fact, fans of other companies claim perpetually. You haven't read any of my articles, or you would have given examples. Nope, in your pathetic attempt at trolling you have simply pulled out all the stops at starting a flame war, no facts, no argumentation, just inflammatory phrases jumbled together.

Does that surprise anybody? One, I haven't written one article outside of a pure review in console history since 2008. I gave up on counter editorials when I realized how marketing works, volume not quality or accuracy. Two, Doom for 32X is not the best console version, and if something I said even implied that you obviously took it out of context. Three, beat-em ups have many times the gameplay characteristics you imply and you just disqualified yourself as an "expert judge" on them.

[OldSchool]

Neither: they both accomplish what they set out to do - solid Action mechanics, nice graphics, solid music/sound, decent level design.


Both equally good games.

[cowboyscowboys]

Of course you do.

I'd expect nothing more from the guy that asserts that the 32X version of Doom is the "best console version" or that MKII on Genesis is equal to the SNES rev.



So funny. You act as if this genre, or at least these games within it, are somehow gameplay-intensive in such a manner that you could have a single screen and still have a great (or good, or passable) game.

These games are not iterations of 'Samurai Showdown' or 'Street Fighter III'; you've got an attack button, a jump button and a d-pad. In the case of the Genesis game, you also have one for run -- ooh, complex!

They're not even, say, 'Streets of Rage 3' or somesuch, which does attempt some diversification (complication) of input standards and gameplay through that.

Considering this, what makes the TMNT series compelling? Pacing. A sense of style by way of setpieces. Level design is key.

That's where the arcade originals, 'Manhattan Project' and the buffed-up home port 'Turtles in Time' shine. And that's where 'Hyperstone Heist' curls up like a frightened turtle.

Abysmal level design. Just atrocious.

The setpieces are either poorly placed, or nonexistent for long stretches, compounded by level structure that is bloated.

Just compare the two games' opening levels. 'Turtles in Time' opens on a skyscraper, a real showstopper that is paced brilliantly by interactive objects that essay the action, both in the foreground and background; from the wrecking ball to Krang's towering, laser-shooting android body, the level is exciting and dynamic.

Full of ideas, and paced perfectly. It has a brevity about it, a sense of keeping the gameplay moving to the next idea.

It's a superior beat 'em up on the scale of showmanship. It's witty and it's quick. It's a great action game, under these standards.

Then there's Hyperstone Heist. Which opens in a sewer. And not the sewers of 'Turtles in Time' or 'The Manhattan Project' -- both of which have unique gameplay ideas, relative to the rest of their respective games' level designs -- but rather an interminable, flat thing with no back or foreground imagination (no integration of theme into gameplay gimmickry) that simply moves right against a tortuously long, and repetitious, brown wall.

The fact that the designers padded out the level's length only adds to the tedium. Ground level is nothing more than a dumbed down -- that is, stripped of its verve and ideas -- level two from 'Turtles in Time'.

Then, back to the sewer. Where the turtles now...walk on water?!! Darwinism+Christianity? No, just shitty programming. This game was outsourced to those ten-thousand monkeys at type-writers, by the looks of it.

Point is, that style often is substance. These games are great because of their visual artistry and design on a strata the player can interact, with new a idea not just being presented in each stage but sometimes each screen.

'Turtles in Time' by way of its time travel gimmick, plays with this brilliantly. So does its arcade forebear along with the NES games ('Manhattan Project' might be the best designed Konami brawler, period).

'Hyperstone Heist' feels like an afterthought. Because it is.

The TMNT games are not 'Tetris'. To pretend that they could be enjoyed on a level-free playing field is about as ridiculous as it gets. This is not a weakness. Contiguous/sidescrolling backgrounds was/were an innovation, leading to some of the best games in history. What good 'Mario 3', one of the very finest games ever created, would be without this is a mystery. Its gameplay depth is level-design and interaction.

That's the same with Konami TMNT games. But 'Hyperstone Heist' seems bored with this idea, while offering no alternative.

Brilliant post I doubt I will ever have the skill you have expressing your opinion but I agree 100%.

Last thought the sound on HH is better please..... TiT wins again

[Forgotten Sin]

Turtles in Time for me, mostly because I've had more experience playing it, so it's a more memorable experience.

[subcultural]

Question regarding HH. I own both games. Neither of the games have a manual.
I can pull of throws quite consistently with TIT, but grabbing and swinging an enemy in HH seems pretty random to me.
Is it me or is throwing an enemy in HH a random move you perform while pressing the punch button? :confused:

I can't decide which one I like best. TIT is great, but after playing a round of HH you notice how bad the hit detection is in TIT. HH is also great, but short. It also feels much more like a button masher, while in TIT I can perform certain throws. Nothing like Streets of Rage, but it sure takes away the tediousness of rapidly pushing a certain button in order to beat a level.

[Alianger]

^In TiT, you have to pause after hitting a soldier to perform the throw, but in HH you need to let go of the d-pad instead. It should be easier to throw consistently in HH, at least it is for me.

[A Black Falcon]

I was going to avoid getting into this thread but god-damn do you guys like to exaggerate.

The differences between TiT and HH are noticeable but minor,

Minor? No. There are a good number of differences, and TiT is better in almost all of them. They put more effort into it.

Also though, seriously, go play TMNT III: The Manhattan Project and just try to come back and say that Hyperstone Heist is as good as the other TMNT beat 'em ups in level design... that game has amazing level designs, some of the best in the genre, and then on the Genesis we get... this? With some of the most boring, bland, and nonsensical (it's so, so incredibly stupid that they walk on water!) level designs in the genre, and not enough of the variety and fun of the past titles?

Disappointing.


the idea that one is clearly better than the other (to the level that choosing HH automatically makes you biased) is retarded,

Of course everyone is entitled to their opinion, but this is another case where I think the general conventional wisdom (outside of Genesis sites) that Turtles in Time is much better is accurate.


the two games are effectively the same game with different backgrounds 90% of the way through anyway,

And considering that Turtles in Time came first, you don't consider this to be a negative? I do! I mean, if it was a Turtles in Time port that'd be different, but no, it's just an incredibly, incredibly lazy "new" game.


both are way too short, I completed both of those games within a day of buying them, HH is faster, TiT has better presentation, its a marginal win to TiT in my opinion

I agree that TiT isn't one of the hardest games ever, but it's fun and varied throughout, so that's not much of a problem -- it's a lot of fun to replay. The Manhattan Project is a longer game, though.


[Castlevania IV and Bloodlines are both good games, both have a different style of music, different atmosphere, and different level designs, they are not comparable at all so personal taste is always going to be a factor, my only problem with Bloodlines is that it can be a bit unpolished at times, which is why I would go with Castlevania IV.

Sure, personal taste plays a role, but Super Castlevania IV regularly shows up on best-games-ever lists, best-Castlevania-game lists, and things like that, but Bloodlines... well, you'd need to come to a Genesis site like this one to find many people who actually prefer it to SCIV. There's a good reason for that.

Also, they're both traditional-style Castlevania games, so yes I think that they absolutely can be compared.

I do agree about polish, though. Most of Konami's Genesis games just don't seem to have as much polish as their SNES games, the few that do are their best ones -- Rocket Knight Adventures, Contra Hard Corps... but other stuff, they just aren't quite as polished as Konami's SNES games. Hardware limitations are not a complete answer, not when other games on the same platform do more.


I mentioned the thread should be about either Sunset Riders or Zombies because the point of this thread was to see if people around here will automatically give the win to Sega everytime, and those two games are not arguable, the only reason to vote for the Sega versions is nostalgia, bias, or lack of experience.

Agreed here, if we had a Sunset Riders comparison thread and a lot of people actually said they liked the Genesis version more...

I mean, I actually find Genesis Sunset Riders fun -- I love the arcade game, the SNES version of the arcade game, and the Genesis game -- it's definitely not the equal of the SNES game. It's just too repetitive, the design and levels aren't anywhere near the arcade/SNES brilliance. It's probably a longer game, but that doesn't make it better.

And at least Genesis Sunset Riders is fun! That's not true for Genesis TMNT: Tournament Fighters, which is just bad... it doesn't even have six button controller support, that's how poor the Genesis game is! SNES TMNT Tournament Fighters is a fantastic game as I said, one of the better fighting games of its generation.


Also the Tiny Toon Adventures game on the SNES is not only worse than the Genesis one, its a pretty bad game in general, one long crappy memory test, with constant stops to play really boring mini games, bad controls, and terrible level designs and bosses (which are clearly just designed with the focus to look impressive and so end up playing badly), the Genesis one may not be big on originality, but its a nice, fast, and responsive traditional platforming game with decent graphics and a password save etc :D.

The Genesis Tiny Toon Adventures platform is really, really simplistic, like something that'd have worked fine on the NES... the SNES one feels more "next-gen". Great graphics too. As for the gameplay, both are decently good, though yeah, neither is perfect. (Oh, and while it's cool that the Genesis game has password save (the SNES game doesn't), what possible reason is there for why they're 16 characters long... ARGH!)

The main reason I said that though, actually, wasn't because of the platformers but because of Tiny Toon Adventures: Wacky Sports Challenge for the SNES, a fantastic olympic sports/minigame collection that is the best "Mario Party style" 4th-gen game that I have played. It's got the same sprites from the SNES platformer, so it looks great, but it's such a good game, particularly with 3 or 4 players and a multitap... there are even some Mode 7 games, as well as the 2d ones. I think it's a great game. The Genesis Tiny Toon Adventures: ACME All-Stars is pretty generic in comparison. Tiny Toon characters playing basketball, soccer, etc... bland.


Hyperstone has 12 level segments of the same length and greater difficulty than Turtles in Time's 10 distinct levels which have no segments. Hyperstone has more enemies on screen and several more frames of animation per character than the SNES game does, which makes Hyperstone seem smoother especially while running and fighting. I really enjoy listening to both soundtracks and consider them roughly equal.

Hyperstone Heist has a decent soundtrack, but it's not the equal of the SNES's.

Other than that though, Turtles in Time actually has bosses, so those levels are going to take longer... in Hyperstone Heist there are very few bosses, because of how long they made the levels. Looking at Youtube videos, the two games actually are similar in length -- a TiT longplay is 42:41 (actual gameplay is 1:22 to 42:04), while HH is 44:26 (actual gameplay is 1:53 to 41:59).

TMNT II: The Arcade Game for NES is 45:55 (gameplay 0:25 to 43:00), but The Manhattan Project is longer as I thought -- the video is 1:15 (gameplay 0:1:41 to 1:13:00).

Those are definitely not average times, I know, but as rough estimates -- II, IV, and HH are shorter and somewhat similar in length, while III is longer -- they're helpful.

Also though, anyway, neither TiT or HH is particularly difficult. Both NES games are harder than either of them. I don't mind that too much, both 16-bit games are far too fun for their not-too-high difficulties to be much of a problem, but it is true, and I don't see anything there that advantages HH over TiT. More animation? If so, it's not enough to make any kind of a difference. It's other stuff, like the boring levels, lack of variety (of stages), lack of bosses, etc, that I would say matter more, and Turtles in Time wins decisively in all of those categories.


I do wish that if Konami wanted to make a remix of previous games, they would have at least included some of the original's levels like the burning building. What we got on the Genesis though is at least as lengthy, and at least arguably better in gameplay. Of the home turtles beat-em ups, I would put Hyperstone on par with Turtles in Time and well above the NES games and the original arcade game. But, I am a beat-em up fanatic and tend to over-emphasize actual gameplay over "presentation." No vote for me.

Manhattan Project doesn't have the graphics of the 16-bit games, but it sure does have better level designs than either of them, and better enemy patterns too... in some ways that's the best Turtles beat 'em up ever, really. I wish there was a Turtles game with the variety and great design of that game, but with the graphics of the arcade or 16-bit titles... :(


Of course you do.

I'd expect nothing more from the guy that asserts that the 32X version of Doom is the "best console version" or that MKII on Genesis is equal to the SNES rev.

Seriously, he said that? :lol:

32X Doom is one of the worst console versions, not the best...


So funny. You act as if this genre, or at least these games within it, are somehow gameplay-intensive in such a manner that you could have a single screen and still have a great (or good, or passable) game.

These games are not iterations of 'Samurai Showdown' or 'Street Fighter III'; you've got an attack button, a jump button and a d-pad. In the case of the Genesis game, you also have one for run -- ooh, complex!

They're not even, say, 'Streets of Rage 3' or somesuch, which does attempt some diversification (complication) of input standards and gameplay through that.

Considering this, what makes the TMNT series compelling? Pacing. A sense of style by way of setpieces. Level design is key.

That's where the arcade originals, 'Manhattan Project' and the buffed-up home port 'Turtles in Time' shine. And that's where 'Hyperstone Heist' curls up like a frightened turtle.

Abysmal level design. Just atrocious.

The setpieces are either poorly placed, or nonexistent for long stretches, compounded by level structure that is bloated.

Just compare the two games' opening levels. 'Turtles in Time' opens on a skyscraper, a real showstopper that is paced brilliantly by interactive objects that essay the action, both in the foreground and background; from the wrecking ball to Krang's towering, laser-shooting android body, the level is exciting and dynamic.

Full of ideas, and paced perfectly. It has a brevity about it, a sense of keeping the gameplay moving to the next idea.

It's a superior beat 'em up on the scale of showmanship. It's witty and it's quick. It's a great action game, under these standards.

Then there's Hyperstone Heist. Which opens in a sewer. And not the sewers of 'Turtles in Time' or 'The Manhattan Project' -- both of which have unique gameplay ideas, relative to the rest of their respective games' level designs -- but rather an interminable, flat thing with no back or foreground imagination (no integration of theme into gameplay gimmickry) that simply moves right against a tortuously long, and repetitious, brown wall.

Right. the levels are ridiculously dull in design. Also see Sunset Riders -- the Genesis game repeats the same things over and over and over. Sure, it's longer than the arcade game, but that doesn't make it better! It only uses four of the original eight level environments, too, so even beyond the extreme repetition within each stage (seriously, in the town stage you must see the same four buildings twenty times each, while on the SNES you saw each once...) you play two stages in each of the four levels, with a boss only every other at the end of each level -- seeing a pattern here, with how Hyperstone Heist and Castlevania Bloodlines also shared the same problem of having too few levels that were far too long? Why did Konami do this bad design over and over on the Genesis?


The fact that the designers padded out the level's length only adds to the tedium. Ground level is nothing more than a dumbed down -- that is, stripped of its verve and ideas -- level two from 'Turtles in Time'.

Then, back to the sewer. Where the turtles now...walk on water?!! Darwinism+Christianity? No, just shitty programming. This game was outsourced to those ten-thousand monkeys at type-writers, by the looks of it.

Yeah, and then in the level after that they need hoverboards to be on that water... it's so stupid and nonsensical, such awful design... :lol:


Point is, that style often is substance. These games are great because of their visual artistry and design on a strata the player can interact, with new a idea not just being presented in each stage but sometimes each screen.

'Turtles in Time' by way of its time travel gimmick, plays with this brilliantly. So does its arcade forebear along with the NES games ('Manhattan Project' might be the best designed Konami brawler, period).

'Hyperstone Heist' feels like an afterthought. Because it is.

The TMNT games are not 'Tetris'. To pretend that they could be enjoyed on a level-free playing field is about as ridiculous as it gets. This is not a weakness. Contiguous/sidescrolling backgrounds was/were an innovation, leading to some of the best games in history. What good 'Mario 3', one of the very finest games ever created, would be without this is a mystery. Its gameplay depth is level-design and interaction.

That's the same with Konami TMNT games. But 'Hyperstone Heist' seems bored with this idea, while offering no alternative.

I agree with pretty much everything you say in your post. Level designs are an important reason why the Turtles games were so great, and Hyperstone Heist has absolutely none of it.

There's more, though. I mean, in Manhattan Project especially, but also in the first game (arcade/Turtles II on NES) or Turtles in Time, even beyond the great level designs of Manhattan Project always and those other two often, also the enemies come at you from various directions. They don't just run at you from the right or the left, but they jump out from behind signs, they come through windows, up from sewers, they appear as "statues" which turn into enemies, and so much more... it's great, it's always fun seeing where the enemies are going to come from next.

But Hyperstone Heist? They come from the right, then they come from the left, then maybe they drop in from above or below or something, then fifteen more waves coming from the right or left... there's none of that other stuff, none of the touches that made the previous games brilliant. Just repetitious bashing in extremely bland, generic, and repetitive stages with no variety. It's so, so disappointing.

[Christuserloeser]

I think you guys tend to forget that some people might have played Hyperstone Heist first, and thus have a nostalgic feeling or simply general preference for it.

I haven't played either games until a few years ago and have never beaten Turtles in Time, so right now I prefer Hyperstone Heist.

My brother on the other hand prefers Turtles in Time which he played at a friend shortly after the game was released. He wasn't impressed with Hyperstone Heist either.

[sheath]

I have a general preference for beat-ups that play better because there are more enemies to fight at once.

Aside from that, A Black Falcon, no I did not say what "16bitter" claims. Doom 32X has better music than Youtube denizens claim though, on par with what most PCs were capable of in 1994 and better than what the Jaguar game didn't offer. It also has a better framerate than most PCs I had access to at the time, much less the 3DO, Saturn, or SNES games. Your mileage may vary on the windowed screen and lack of side/back facing enemy sprites, but I played the hell out of it.

Doom 32X is obviously not the best home conversion, though we should discuss release years at the least.

[A Black Falcon]

I have a general preference for beat-ups that play better because there are more enemies to fight at once.

So you don't care at all about horrible level design, environments, backdrops, enemy entrances, bosses, or anything else, but only about the number of regular enemies you fight at a time? Huh.

32X Doom -- Was there a thread about that recently, or should I reply to what you say here... I personally like SNES Doom better than 32X Doom, though. Sure the graphics and framerate are worse, but in some ways (level maps most importantly) it's the most accurate port of all the '90s Doom console ports (the story's there, the overworld map, the original levels including light changes, crushing ceilings, etc.), the music's great, and the controls are good -- the Genesis controller is better overall, but for something like Doom or F-Zero, the lack of shoulder buttons does hurt it. SNES Doom even has all of the enemies except for the Invisible Demon, more than most of those ports. I agree that the graphics of 32X Doom look nice, and the smooth framerate is good, but the audio and content (not just that it's using the cut Jaguar stuff, but more importantly that seven levels are missing from the Jaguar version) really, really hurts it a lot.

As for audio, anyone with a Soundblaster could get better audio than 32X Doom, and by the time it came out in late 1994 that was most PC gamers I'd guess.


I think you guys tend to forget that some people might have played Hyperstone Heist first, and thus have a nostalgic feeling or simply general preference for it.

I haven't played either games until a few years ago and have never beaten Turtles in Time, so right now I prefer Hyperstone Heist.

My brother on the other hand prefers Turtles in Time which he played at a friend shortly after the game was released. He wasn't impressed with Hyperstone Heist either.

TiT is pretty easy, you'd have to really not do well to actually not finish it...

Also, more people are likely to have played Turtles in Time first. First, it was an arcade game of course, and a lot of people played it there. And then the SNES game was very popular, while Hyperstone Heist never reached that kind of popularity. But yes, of course I'm sure that you're right that there are some people that played Hyperstone Heist first... though if we count the arcade version as well as the SNES version of Turtles in Time, likely not that many (with just the SNES one you would have more of a point).

[roundwars]

Sure, personal taste plays a role, but Super Castlevania IV regularly shows up on best-games-ever lists, best-Castlevania-game lists, and things like that, but Bloodlines... well, you'd need to come to a Genesis site like this one to find many people who actually prefer it to SCIV. There's a good reason for that.

You mean reasons like the fact that SCIV came first and sold more copies? Because these "best games ever" lists tend to be based around those things just as much as on the actual qualities of the game.

[sheath]

So you don't care at all about horrible level design, environments, backdrops, enemy entrances, bosses, or anything else, but only about the number of regular enemies you fight at a time? Huh.

Nope, that would be an exaggeration. I emphasize characters on screen with fighting AI versus cutscenes with dialog about nothing gameplay related. That's my preference, what am I actually interacting with versus stuff I can watch, and I am in the minority there.


32X Doom -- Was there a thread about that recently, or should I reply to what you say here... I personally like SNES Doom better than 32X Doom, though. Sure the graphics and framerate are worse, but in some ways (level maps most importantly) it's the most accurate port of all the '90s Doom console ports (the story's there, the overworld map, the original levels including light changes, crushing ceilings, etc.), the music's great, and the controls are good -- the Genesis controller is better overall, but for something like Doom or F-Zero, the lack of shoulder buttons does hurt it. SNES Doom even has all of the enemies except for the Invisible Demon, more than most of those ports. I agree that the graphics of 32X Doom look nice, and the smooth framerate is good, but the audio and content (not just that it's using the cut Jaguar stuff, but more importantly that seven levels are missing from the Jaguar version) really, really hurts it a lot.

I am fairly certain whatever comment you are referring to occured in one of the many "32X is shit" threads. The 32X department would be a great place to start a Doom 32X thread. As for your comments, I don't disagree with any of them.

I played through and own the SNES game complete, and I have the 3DO game as well. There are specific advantages to the earlier 32X game though. I definitely agree that the 32X game should have not excluded any levels from the Jaguar version.


As for audio, anyone with a Soundblaster could get better audio than 32X Doom, and by the time it came out in late 1994 that was most PC gamers I'd guess.

Not everybody had a high end PC in 1994, actually I'd wager most didn't. Besides, Doom32X's music (http://www.gamepilgrimage.com/content/doom-32x-soundtrack) isn't as bad as Youtube nonsense has let on.

Back on topic though, please understand that I look at games for what they offer and not for what other people say about them. Turtles in Time is a good game, so is Hyperstone Heist. The biggest difference in level designs is that the former has levels traversing cliche' and stereotypical sets, and the later is more attuned to the cartoons.

I could call the "Prehistoric Turtlesaurus" level in Turtles in Time as unimaginative as the cave levels in Hyperstone, for the many of the same reasons. I prefer the side scrolling future level in the Arcade TiT to the Mode 7 SNES version as well.

How should we break these levels down as "better or worse"? I have never seen a standard.

[GeckoYamori]

Although it could have if some actual effort was put into the port, Doom 32X music certainly isn't on the same level as a standard OPL3-based sound card from that era.

And Doom did not require high-end gaming PCs like the benchmark games of today. Doom became such a big cultural phenomenom in large part because it crept its way into office and school computers everywhere. I recall wandering around in an office environment back during that period, and on one of the computers I could see Doom running.

[BrianC]

Turtles in Time is a good game, so is Hyperstone Heist. The biggest difference in level designs is that the former has levels traversing cliche' and stereotypical sets, and the later is more attuned to the cartoons.

The 80s and 90s cartoon traversed cliché and stereotypical sets. Not to mention that bits and pieces of those same sets from Turtles in Time were still used in Hyperstone Heist (not to mention that the plot of shrinking the statue of liberty is still pretty clichéd). I don't see how Hyperstone Heist is any more attuned to the cartoons than TiT.

[GeckoYamori]

One interesting thing about the Genesis version of Tournament Fighters is that it's (I think) based on the archie comic rather than the cartoon. I think it's the only Turtles game ever that did that, would have been much better if Hyperstone Heist was set in that universe instead.

[sheath]

The 80s and 90s cartoon traversed cliché and stereotypical sets. Not to mention that bits and pieces of those same sets from Turtles in Time were still used in Hyperstone Heist (not to mention that the plot of shrinking the statue of liberty is still pretty clichéd). I don't see how Hyperstone Heist is any more attuned to the cartoons than TiT.

Keep in mind, I don't think either is greater than the other. Since we like to toss around words like this a lot, I would say that most of the Turtles cartoons were torrid. I was pointing out that Turtles in Time's levels are no more creative. Your point that many of Hyperstone's levels are essentially the same is also well made. How could one game have horrible level design then?

[BrianC]

Keep in mind, I don't think either is greater than the other. Since we like to toss around words like this a lot, I would say that most of the Turtles cartoons were torrid. I was pointing out that Turtles in Time's levels are no more creative. Your point that many of Hyperstone's levels are essentially the same is also well made. How could one game have horrible level design then?

I think you confused me with another poster. I haven't played enough of Hyperstone Heist for an opinion (though I played some and have seen plenty of videos). I replied because I disagreed that either was closer to the cartoon. My point wasn't that the levels were essentially the same, my point was that most levels in Hyperstone Heist reused bits and pieces of Turtles in Time levels to make up the levels. I didn't comment on how good the level design of either game is, please don't put words in my mouth.

[sheath]

I think you confused me with another poster. I haven't played enough of Hyperstone Heist for an opinion. I simply replied I disagreed that either was closer to the cartoon.

I did, sorry about that, too much flaming going on. By "we" I was referring to these forums, not you and I. Anyway I agree essentially. Though I would off hand consider any of the levels from Hyperstone or the NES turtles games more in line with the cartoons.

[Thenewguy]

"Alleycat Blues" "Technodrome" "Starbase" and the lift level are all very close to being the same as each other in both gameplay and aesthetics, (In HH, Technodrome and Starbase are added together to make a huge final level) so 40% of the game plays pretty much the same.

Sewer Surfin and 1.3 both include all the same gameplay elements as each other, just having different backdrops, "Skull and Crossbones" and "Mysterious Ghost Ship" have all the same gameplay elements, but different backdrops

So 60% of HH plays similarly to TiT, and 40% looks and plays similarly

The sheer amount of recycling going on means that enemy entrances are generally pretty similar between the two games, enemies in the Alleycat Blues level, generally enter the screen in the same way, either from buildings or jumping down from fire escapes, the section where they jump over the fence is not there anymore, but a new section with them jumping out of a car replaces it (with an added part where a car attempts to run you over) in the Starbase and Technodrome levels this is also the case, with the little robots still smashing through glass from the conveyer belts, and foot clan still using teleporters and chutes.

Pretty much all the environmental dangers from TiT are retained for HH

Some of the remaining levels in TiT which were replaced in HH (there's about 4 different full size levels between the two) are not helping your criticism, both "Bury my Shell at Wounded Knee" and "Neon Knights" lack any kind of new or interesting gameplay elements, Neon Knights doesn't even have "walking forwards attacking" gameplay, being basically another "lift" style level but this time with an elaborate background, both those levels are, however, very good in presentation, with foot clans members even riding horses to enter the "Bury" stage, along with fast scrolling, and mode 7 effects for Neon Knights

One of the extra levels in HH (the Japanese styled one) does have a few environmental elements, such as ceiling spikes, retractable spikes, and robot samurai's firing lasers, though the presentation, as usual is not up to scratch.

The controls in Hyperstone Heist are definitely better, and the speed increase keeps the action moving at a slightly faster pace than in TiT

There are a few sections which have slightly improved graphics in Hyperstone Heist

-----------------------

Even so, playing through the two again, I'm veering much more towards TiT now, one thing I wasn't taking into account is the difference in boss fights, TiT has tons of them whilst HH has very few (which is probably the main reason why most people feel that TiT is longer, even though in reality they are roughly the same length) the boss fights are all pretty cool in TiT, in HH they're still quite good (many of them are simply taken from the original Turtles arcade game) but not to the same level, and there's not enough of them, and they even make you re-fight them again later on.

The presentation in the SNES game helps to keep it interesting, making you want to see what's next so to speak, whilst a lot of the new levels in HH are uninspired walks through sewers and caves that have samey backgrounds (so 30% odd of the game has uninteresting backgrounds, though plays effectively the same as before)

The walking on water bit is very unpolished, and clearly to anyone who's played both games is nothing but a left over from the Sewer Surfin SNES level thats been mucked about with to make a new level.

I must say that HH is giving me Mega Drive Sunset Riders vibes, maybe the same Konami staff worked on both Mega Drive ports? but unlike that Hyperstone is still a good game because the actual fighting engine behind the whole thing in itself was very strong, creating fast and effective gameplay, and really its only 3 odd stages which are doing the damage (its just a shame two of them are very early in the game, I think the opening level does the most damage because that levels supposed to be there to gear you up for the game) the control, speed, and enemy number differences offset that a little, and the music is still great.

[Hiarcs]

Starbase: where no turtle has gone before LOL

Classic title for the last level intro

[16bitter]

Seriously, he said that? :lol:

32X Doom is one of the worst console versions, not the best...

Yes, he said it. The search function brought this up:


Doom 32X not being "awful" is an understatement. Among the console ports of Doom 1 it is at the top of the list. Enjoy!

I'm sure he'll try to semantically worm off the hook, but the idea that 'Doom' is better on 32X than Jaguar is laughable enough, and highly questionable even relative to the SNES version. And certainly, the Playstation version is a port of the first 'Doom' as well -- the implications of the post is that the best version of those maps is on 32X, which is about as technically inaccurate as one can get.

But I must say, I love his delivery. It's like a waitress at a roadside, bumfuck diner serving up day-old meatloaf with canned potatoes and acting as if the patrons are "in for a treat".

He pitches this crap more forcefully and fulsomely than Tom Kalinske ever did.

[sheath]

Top of the list = among the best, not number one. That is, I oppose the idea that Doom 32X is bad, or among the worst as so many claim. Sorry about that, my phraseology was the problem.

[16bitter]

Top of the list = among the best, not number one.

Let's face it, occasionally you slip up in your rhetoric, fully showing your hand. It's really a simple matter of explication versus implication, but once one has the pattern down, like the average boss pattern the implications of those actions/stances become explication anyway.


That is, I oppose the idea that Doom 32X is bad, or among the worst as so many claim. Sorry about that, my phraseology was the problem.

Ah, yes. The "every game's equal" gambit, that typically applies -- from sheath's perspective -- to the latest attempt to push the Sega side of things, no matter how much better the competition is.

This thread is an instance. He thinks that he can, well, sheath himself in some cloak of "objectivity" -- misusing the word on a rudimentary level, by pushing the sophistry -- by saying that the only "fair" judgment is that all versions are worthwhile and about the same.

It's tantamount to an advanced student being held back in a remedial class because the teacher doesn't want to hand out grades, for fear of hurting the other students' feelings or stereotyping. Is this for that student's benefit? No, it's for the benefit of his inferior classmates (itself a misnomer, but one that sheath revels in when ranting on about "objectivity", "subjectivity", media bias and Sega's overlapping genius, even as regards something like the 32X project).

Which is also how we get declarations such as 'Hyperstone Heist' having "superior gameplay" or 'Doom' on 32X having "good music" or, hell, the 32X being the "best value of 1995".

It's a semantic game, within and without. Is sheath trying to pull the competition down, or Sega up? Practically Marxism.

[sheath]

Speaking of rudimentary things:

Objectivity (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/objectivity)
3
a : expressing or dealing with facts or conditions as perceived without distortion by personal feelings, prejudices, or interpretations <objective art> <an objective history of the war> <an objective judgment> b of a test : limited to choices of fixed alternatives and reducing subjective factors to a minimum

Which is what I do when I break down a game by their measurable parts and allow that to affect my subjective opinion of the game overall. You know, facts like actual colors on screen, sprite size, animation, numbers of levels, music clarity, number of tracks and sounds, things you can count.

All of these things are measurable, as opposed to whether or not a level design is [spin the wheel of negative adjectives].

Subjectivity (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/subjectivity?show=0&t=1289397810):

4
a (1) : peculiar to a particular individual : personal <subjective judgments> (2) : modified or affected by personal views, experience, or background <a subjective account of the incident>

Subjectivity is to say something is "good", "better", or "horrible", there is no way around it. Your statements are subjective. Subjectivity runs rampant when the peculiar individual wielding adjectives as facts is fully submitted to their own bias or is a compulsive liar.

Bias: (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bias)

a : bent, tendency b : an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice

[genesisguy]

I was a big TMNT fan as a kid. I had the first two TMNT NES games. I don't know what happened, I got a Genesis in late '92 and I never had any desire for Hyperstone Heist, I don't think I even rented it. By the time I was into 16-bit gaming TMNT weren't popular with my circle of friends. I don't even remember my SNES friends having TiT.

I bought TiT and Hyperstone Heist last year. I woulda loved both of these as a kid. We always wanted a TMNT Arcade game with arcade graphics, but we had to settle for the NES version. Both of these games kinda brought the arcade graphics to home. I played through both. I liked the SNES version slightly better. But I did like the run option on the Genesis. Its been over a year since I played both of these, but the Genesis version did have that feel of being slapped together quickly. My vote goes to the SNES... just barely.

[16bitter]

Which is what I do when I break down a game by their measurable parts and allow that to affect my subjective opinion of the game overall.

The number of colors onscreen doesn't tell us how well they were used.

The number of sound effects doesn't give us an idea of their tonality or general quality.

And a subjective list of software, presented by sheath, that is listed as "worthwhile" does not prove much of anything, and certainly not that two consoles are about equal because he made a subjective title count.

Numeracy is a constant, even bad calculations are inherently of integers and measurement, but that doesn't prove that your math is salient to the matter being discussed, or that you're truly being objective just because you rant on against opinions you dislike while expressing your own.

So the same logic underpinning -- that is specious logic -- you then form lists and "analyze" games to come to previously formed conclusions, quite clearly. That is, you argue out a point simply to arrive at the conclusion that you prefer. Invariably this has something to do with Sega being screwed or underrated -- I've done some basic math on that, myself.

Somehow you think it's "objective" and "fair" to assert, and confuse with fact, that 'Doom' 32X sounds good, that the Genesis' sound chip is equal to the SNES' Sony sound chip, or that the 32X was "the best value of 1995".

The above ideas, posing as cold analysis, are the result of your broken (in)ability to dispassionately look at product and coding.


You know, facts like actual colors on screen, sprite size, animation, numbers of levels, music clarity, number of tracks and sounds, things you can count.

Well, Whoopi Goldberg has a head, a torso and four limbs. So does Natalie Portman.

I suppose it would be "subjective" to say one is hot, and the other is a cow.

But there you go.


Bias: (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bias)

a : bent, tendency b : an inclination of temperament or outlook; especially : a personal and sometimes unreasoned judgment : prejudice

I know you're biased toward Sega, no need for dictionary definitions to describe your pathologies.

But these dictionary definitions, that in the positive you try and conflate with your fanboyish tendencies, basically sums up Game Pilgrimage's hilarity.

Nothing like a rant about media bias, that is little more than conflation or prelude to yet another rant about how fantastic and "perfect" the camera angles are in a 'Sonic Adventure' game.

[sheath]

I am biased towards action games, your diagnosis is self serving. It's really too bad that I'm having a bad week in the real world or I wouldn't even be bothering with this post.

From your overall tone on these forums I think you never tell the truth about what you actually think. Your lies are constant, you rarely if ever answer a question with an honest answer, and you hide behind really badly written verbose opinion statements. Big Smile, Big Smile (http://piv.pivpiv.dk/).

[Thenewguy]

What is this? bully Sheath day? :D

[16bitter]

What is this? bully Sheath day? :D

I know, the internet's caught up with the rest of his life.

[sheath]

He's been on me like a bad rash since I joked about his Sega sucks narrative over in one of the 32X bashing threads. ;)

[16bitter]

He's been on me like a bad rash since I joked about his Sega sucks narrative over in one of the 32X bashing threads. ;)

I was making fun of Game Pilgrimage on this board long before you started posting here.

But, when I say keep up the good work, I mean it; your posts are often as unintentionally comedic as your articles.

So far as that 32X thread, that's where some of your best work resides. Your idea of amalgamating romantic zeal with an ugly piece of plastic that produced 20-something mediocre games remains a train wreck rarely seen, even on the average internet board.

[sheath]

No you haven't.

[16bitter]

Oh believe me, I have.

If you want to read every post I've ever written to find what I'm referring to, be my guest. I have no doubt that you're equal to the task.

[sheath]

Hmm, yup, you did. In the Blast Processing thread, which obviously attracted you like a fly to shit, you called me a slavish Sega fanboy and gave no examples. I guess it's really that obvious. Should I start flogging myself with my SNES Ascii controller now?

Also, one of your first posts (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121&highlight=16bitter) way back in 2005 has some interestingly bad logic. You compared the PS1 re-release of Strider Arcade to the Genesis port. Isn't that something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYMuhN7OZgM).

Are you sure you aren't the op of this topic (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.sega/browse_thread/thread/dcebb7887cc0dd8d/2a2e59b4345fe303?q=rec.games.video.sega#2a2e59b434 5fe303)?


-edit-!!!
Tell me honestly, if you have such a mode, how do you feel about the fact that I still prefer playing Strider on Genesis even though I have an HTPC with MAME installed. How about the fact that I sold Strider 2 on PS1 years ago and have yet to be compelled to pick it up again.

(ZOMG I can't believe he says that!)

I'll go ahead and suppose you'll engage this with a block of random antiquated words beginning with the word "fanboy" blurted out like a bad fart.

[16bitter]

Hmm, yup, you did. In the Blast Processing thread, which obviously attracted you like a fly to shit, you called me a slavish Sega fanboy and gave no examples. I guess it's really that obvious. Should I start flogging myself with my SNES Ascii controller now?

Also, one of your first posts (http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=121&highlight=16bitter) way back in 2005 has some interestingly bad logic. You compared the PS1 re-release of Strider Arcade to the Genesis port. Isn't that something (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TYMuhN7OZgM).

Are you sure you aren't the op of this topic (http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.video.sega/browse_thread/thread/dcebb7887cc0dd8d/2a2e59b4345fe303?q=rec.games.video.sega#2a2e59b434 5fe303)?

Tell me honestly, if you have such a mode, how do you feel about the fact that I still prefer playing Strider on Genesis even though I have an HTPC with MAME installed. How about the fact that I sold Strider 2 on PS1 years ago and have yet to be compelled to pick it up again.

I'll go ahead and suppose you'll engage this with a block of random antiquated words beginning with the word "fanboy" blurted out like a bad fart.

For posterity beyond the edit button.

Love the bold.

[OldSchool]

You guys are arguing over TMNT... you do realize this don't you.
;)

[Baloo]

http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=426&title=Side%20by%20Side:%20TMNT%20Beat-%27Em-Ups%20%28Genesis%20vs.%20SNES%29

I wrote a side-by-side of both games, they both have some great advantages and weaknesses, I had to put it at a draw, they're both equally as good in different areas.

[oldmanwinters]

http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=426&title=Side%20by%20Side:%20TMNT%20Beat-%27Em-Ups%20%28Genesis%20vs.%20SNES%29

I wrote a side-by-side of both games, they both have some great advantages and weaknesses, I had to put it at a draw, they're both equally as good in different areas.

I remember, and it was a really solid article. I'm still befuddled why this new thread got so popular when we already had a fairly lengthy thread on your original comparison.

[maxxfarras]

Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page....0vs.%20SNES%29

I wrote a side-by-side of both games, they both have some great advantages and weaknesses, I had to put it at a draw, they're both equally as good in different areas.


I agree. I consider the games very even. For this reason I dont give my vote.

A little off topic:
Could we have a poll for contra hard corps vs contra 3 for snes? So my vote should go for contra 3. I suposse that most people could vote for hard corps. But even so could be interesting for me to see if Im the only one who thinks in that way. lol! I hope I will not be punished for this petition lol!

[old man]

^^Already had one of those a long time ago. It was fun. You missed it. (The edge was still here then)

[16bitter]

You guys are arguing over TMNT... you do realize this don't you.
;)

The thread didn't so much mature as it...mutated.

Unfortunately, I think I broke sheath. He was just so much fun to play with, I got carried away.

But keep in mind, even when he was 'new' he had loose screws and crossed wires.

Worst of all, no warranty.

[16bitter]

I remember, and it was a really solid article. I'm still befuddled why this new thread got so popular when we already had a fairly lengthy thread on your original comparison.

Several key differences.

One would be the poll.

Another would be forum. Different audience, and more traffic.

If we're going to worry about threads that have redundant or previously explored topics -- if this is a problem -- then these boards may not be long for the world.

At the same time, if I caused offense by starting this thread, my apologies.

[maxxfarras]

^^Already had one of those a long time ago. It was fun. You missed it. (The edge was still here then)


Oh I see. I had no idea. Sorry for ask for it again folks.
So, do you remember which was the aproximate results of that old poll?
I ask because this new poll involves 3 titles, gunstar, contra 3 and hardcorps. So I must vote for gunstar instead of contra 3. ^.^

But could be nice for me to know the opinion of people here about hardcorps vs contra 3.

[old man]

I tracked it down. Sorry, I was mistaken. It didn't have a poll.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4476&highlight=contra