What could have been...

[Genesis Knight]

The Sega 32X would have rocked if all (or even some) of these games had been released and had been given the time to be ported correctly.

http://www.geocities.com/the32xmemorial/index2.html (Click the reviews tab on the left and scroll down.)

Virtua Cop? Super Street Fighter II Turbo? Rayman? Darkstalkers? Wing War? Those games would have made the mushroom a must-buy.

[TheGZeus]

It's still a $150 that you have to had already spent once on a Genesis...
A $300 cartridge system with the Saturn and Playstation on the way is problem one, the other is that the things break left and right for various reasons.
It's not that I dislike the system in general, I just think they would have been better to add colors with the CD system instead of the sprite transformations.
They made weird choices from the CD through the Dreamcast, in my opinion.

[j_factor]

Wait wait wait.

Wing War?

WING WAR?!

As in, sequel/remake of the Imagic classic, Wing War? That would've been the most awesomest thing ever.

[Genesis Knight]

Sweet, no? I remember playing it in the arcades. Wish I could have a home version!

[Mr Smith]

Many of those unreleased games are just more ports from the Mega Drive.

The idea of a Sonic 4 gets me a little wet and, as a huge Sonic fanboy as a child, it might have made the 32X worth buying. Maybe if they'd focused on a hardcore Sonic game, as opposed the acid trip that was Knuckles Chatoix, the 32X might have been more successful.

[Genesis Knight]

I thought Tempo was the 32X's acid trip...

[Elusive]

Many of those unreleased games are just more ports from the Mega Drive.

The idea of a Sonic 4 gets me a little wet and, as a huge Sonic fanboy as a child, it might have made the 32X worth buying. Maybe if they'd focused on a hardcore Sonic game, as opposed the acid trip that was Knuckles Chatoix, the 32X might have been more successful.

To put it another way, if more people had purchased a 32X more games would have been developed for the system.

[16-bit pwnage]

I always thought that most people were very hypocritical when it came to the 32x; many people complained and assumed that SEGA totally ripped people off and angered many fans. The fact is that only 500,000 were actually sold, and millions bitched about the whole incident, why would you think it's SEGA's fault when most people who complained never bought a 32x? The gamers never showed interest in it, so it's their own fault (for the most part) that the add-on flopped so badly.

[Mendicant]

...uh... isn't it the fault of the manufacturers for not giving more gamers an incentive to buy their hardware?? It's not exactly like the Genesis built it's empire on five games. The reason millions of gamers bought the Genesis was because of the library of games it offered.

And the reason millions of gamers bitched about the whole incident was because the 32X came out around a time when SEGA's OWN next gen console was around the corner, and a lot of people were questioning SEGA's dedication to an add-on. (i.e. whether or not SEGA would support the 32X with enough software to the extent of making it worth spending $200). Then the Saturn came out and further complicated the matter, because now your average Genesis owner had the choice of a) upgrading their existing system, with a questionable future or b) buy a completely new system which would atleast have a longer "life" than the current upgrade.

The reason I own a 32X is because it was on sale for $20, with Virtua Fighter. My 32X library, Virtua Fighter (Equal or less than $20), MKII (used, $5), Corpse Killer ($1.99) and Supreme Warrior ($3) means, that I have spent a grand total of $29.99 for a console, 2 games, and 3 stylized coasters. I wouldn't spend $200 for the collection now; and sure as hell couldn't afford to spend that much during my student days.

[TheGZeus]

I always thought that most people were very hypocritical when it came to the 32x; many people complained and assumed that SEGA totally ripped people off and angered many fans. The fact is that only 500,000 were actually sold, and millions bitched about the whole incident, why would you think it's SEGA's fault when most people who complained never bought a 32x? The gamers never showed interest in it, so it's their own fault (for the most part) that the add-on flopped so badly.
"I was going to buy one, but it never had any games. How am I supposed to trust them now?"
Perfectly valid complaint.

[Elusive]

I had a massive post typed up, but screw it.

'Millions of gamers'? I can smell the hyperbole from here.

now your average Genesis owner had the choice of a) upgrading their existing system, with a questionable future or b) buy a completely new system which would atleast have a longer "life" than the current upgrade.

See, this is the problem, you're treating owners like one great big identical group. Where's the c) option of sticking with the Mega Drive? I mean, by your logic, now the Xbox 360 is released original Xbox owners need to buy the completely new system - screw the games still being released on the old format, THE 360 TRAIN'S IN TOWN BABY WHOO WHOO

And where did the 'completely new system' come from? The 32X is, and was marketed as, an upgrade to the Mega Drive.

[TheGZeus]

There was a truly different situation with the 16-to-32 bit changeover.
The advent of 3D and faster games, new kinds of better graphics...
The 360 does the same thing as the XBox, just more of the same. More pixels, more triangles, more sound channels... no more gaming.

We kept getting promised things that didn't get delivered on..
The 32X was underpowered(mostly the RAM limitations and the lack of hardware graphics) and no PROGRAMMERS wanted to work with it for the same reason they didn't want to work with the Saturn: it was complicated and took more work to get the same effects as other systems.

A few games for the 32X wouldn't have changed much, and staying with the MD was A) not that appealing because the hardware was well at its limits and B) to become impossible due to the total (stupid) discontinuation of the system.

[TheGZeus]

I had a massive post typed up, but screw it.

'Millions of gamers'? I can smell the hyperbole from here.



See, this is the problem, you're treating owners like one great big identical group. Where's the c) option of sticking with the Mega Drive? I mean, by your logic, now the Xbox 360 is released original Xbox owners need to buy the completely new system - screw the games still being released on the old format, THE 360 TRAIN'S IN TOWN BABY WHOO WHOO

And where did the 'completely new system' come from? The 32X is, and was marketed as, an upgrade to the Mega Drive.
The completely new system was the Saturn.
Syntax.

[Flash1087]

I had a massive post typed up, but screw it.

'Millions of gamers'? I can smell the hyperbole from here.



See, this is the problem, you're treating owners like one great big identical group. Where's the c) option of sticking with the Mega Drive? I mean, by your logic, now the Xbox 360 is released original Xbox owners need to buy the completely new system - screw the games still being released on the old format, THE 360 TRAIN'S IN TOWN BABY WHOO WHOO


The problem with the Xbox 360 is that Microsoft killed the Xbox right away. Xbox 1's dropped out of production in early 2006, and the computer at the EB I work at doesn't even have a page for Xbox new releases anymore. And although it pains me to say it, there's about another year or so of new PS2 releases coming down the pipe. The 360 TRAIN is indeed in town and is certainly a SMOOTH RIDE (anyone?) but there's still a lot of people waiting at the Xbox station as it's being demolished around them.

[Mendicant]

I had a massive post typed up, but screw it.
'Millions of gamers'? I can smell the hyperbole from here.
See, this is the problem, you're treating owners like one great big identical group. Where's the c) option of sticking with the Mega Drive? I mean, by your logic, now the Xbox 360 is released original Xbox owners need to buy the completely new system - screw the games still being released on the old format, THE 360 TRAIN'S IN TOWN BABY WHOO WHOO
And where did the 'completely new system' come from? The 32X is, and was marketed as, an upgrade to the Mega Drive.
My mistake. Sorry about the confusion.

1 - I was referring to 16-bit pwnage's "The fact is that only 500,000 were actually sold, and millions bitched about the whole incident" line.

2- Options a & b were about Genesis/MegaDrive owners who wanted a more powerful system. I should've been more specific about that.

[16-bit pwnage]

Perhaps I should have said that many complained about the 32x fiasco b/c during the mid-90's Sega was releasing stuff left and right. Game Gear pops in only to be blindsided by the Sega CD, and when things look to have cooled off the 32x shows up to the party, and with the early Saturn launch state-side it has become a very crowded gathering at the Genesis household. 4 major releases in a gap less than 3 years wide kinda meant that Sega had to kick out something, and rather boot the GG or SCD which failed to get any kind of stranglehold on the industry; Sega decided to kill the 32x b/c it had many focused on it, and not notice the 2 previous items.

[David J.]

There was a lot of potential for the 32X, but I'm not going to weap about thinking about what could have been. But rather enjoy what (limited) we have.

Y'know... look at how buggy and glitchy the 32X can be, and the subpar quality of the library -- half unneeded ports, and the other half being lame orignal titles. How many ports of NBA Jam, Doom, NFL Quarterback Club, Pitfall, Mortal Kombat 2, Toughman Contest, WWF games, and Primal Rage do you need? Oh yeah, FIFA also, but that is more of a curiosity than anything to anyone outside of Europe.

Pitfall is the main offender, because it was on next to every system, even the Game Boy Advance! Doom, well, I can understand, because it was huge at the time and was a system seller for many people -- including me. Mortal Kombat 2 was huge too, but the ports for every system at the time, and even the emulation on modern day complitations is lackluster. Even the "revered" SNES version isn't that great, IMO.

The first thing I think of is... the 32X was a lame attempt at a quick buck. I really doubt that many of the ports we creme over in our dreams would have been that good, considering the limited lifespan of the 32X, Sega's poor product management, and I really doubt most programmers took the time to learn to program for the 32X efficently. I did hear that the Sega Saturn version of Alien Trilogy only uses one of the Saturn's SH2 processors. Maybe the 32X version would have been easily feasable?

Although I come off as bitter, some of the ports and orignal 32X games are worth having, granted you can get them cheap, like I did. The most I ever spent for a game was $12 for a copy of Space Harrier, and that was almost as much as I paid for a new 32X back in 1996, and a copy of Doom. That was $40 right there ($20 for Doom and $20 for the 32X.)

[16-bit pwnage]

and I really doubt most programmers took the time to learn to program for the 32X efficently.

It's not like they had much of a heads up though, seeing that the release in November 1994 was six months shy of the surprise US launch of Saturn, even back then 6 months to develop a game is cutting it close, and even if the Saturn launched here in September like it was supposed to that still leaves very little time to pump out a lot of games. If Saturn hit the US in September then maybe we could have seen at least a few more games that actually had some effort put into them and showcased a good portion its power, and fewer of those rushed ports with a larger colour palette.

[j_factor]

I don't think the early release of the Saturn had anything to do with anything here. Saturn's official launch was still September, and all that was available before that was a tiny number of systems and 3-4 first party games, and only at 4 specific retailers. I don't think any developers in May of '95 were like "oh no, Saturn's out early, that means we have to cancel our 32x games! We totally would've released them if only Saturn wasn't available a few months early!"

[TheGZeus]

I don't think the early release of the Saturn had anything to do with anything here. Saturn's official launch was still September, and all that was available before that was a tiny number of systems and 3-4 first party games, and only at 4 specific retailers. I don't think any developers in May of '95 were like "oh no, Saturn's out early, that means we have to cancel our 32x games! We totally would've released them if only Saturn wasn't available a few months early!"
Saturns possibilities and intentions were already announced before the 32X was in development.

[megadriveworld]

Yeah but games like Virtua Cop wouldn't look too great on 32X hardware, they would be cheap ports like the Virua games that did appear on the system. It was best to leave Virtua games for the Saturn, true 32bit hardware.

[TheGZeus]

Exactly.
Doomed from the start.

[Zebbe]

So Virtua Racing Deluxe and Virtua Fighter were cheap ports? VF won vs. the Saturn version in the Side by Side feature on this site. If they used the 50 000 polygons/second possible and the rest of the 32X hardware fine, I'm sure Virtua Cop would have been a great title for the 32X.

[16-bit pwnage]

It also would have aroused some more interest in light guns, which could in turn have lead the way to other peripheral friendly games appearing on 32x, and more peripherals; who knows there could have been a steering wheel created for Virtua Racing and other drivers that may have made it on the upgrade.

[Joe Redifer]

Virtua Racing on the 32X DESTROYED the gimpy Saturn version. Only a person in a coma would prefer the Saturn version over the 32X version.

[Psy]

Virtua Racing on the 32X DESTROYED the gimpy Saturn version. Only a person in a coma would prefer the Saturn version over the 32X version.
Sega didn't even do the Saturn port they handed it off to Time Warner Interactive.

[Joe Redifer]

I know. My statement still stands as 100% true.

[TheGZeus]

I never liked virtua racing.
I think they simply stopped caring about the game so they farmed it out.

Remember it's an ARCADE port.

I've never understood why there's so much love and/or hope for such an underpowered system that has such a low build quality..

To each their own.

[Psy]

I never liked virtua racing.
I think they simply stopped caring about the game so they farmed it out.

Remember it's an ARCADE port.


But you still had pop ups on the Saturn, the Saturn could have had a unlimited draw distance if done properly (Virtua Racing has no textures).

[Joe Redifer]

I've never understood why there's so much love and/or hope for such an underpowered system that has such a low build quality.

Yeah, if people want to like the Dreamcast that's their deal. But I don't understand either.

[David J.]

I've never understood why there's so much love and/or hope for such an underpowered system that has such a low build quality..

Well, that's what I said in my post, but really... I wanted a 32X because I wanted to play Doom in some form (I grew up playing Doom 2 on the PC at my Grandpa's house). I didn't get a 32X until 1996, and later in 1996 my family got their first computer, and I bought Doom 2 later that year for $20. So why I even bought a 32X THEN was beyond me.

What is it me, Doom and the number 20?

[Psy]

Well, that's what I said in my post, but really... I wanted a 32X because I wanted to play Doom in some form (I grew up playing Doom 2 on the PC at my Grandpa's house). I didn't get a 32X until 1996, and later in 1996 my family got their first computer, and I bought Doom 2 later that year for $20. So why I even bought a 32X THEN was beyond me.

What is it me, Doom and the number 20?
Doom was better on the Atari Jaguar.

[David J.]

Well, at the time, you where shit out of luck if you wanted any Jaguar stuff locally. I've been playing Doom since 1994, and I can't go back to playing it on a console. I now make levels, and pretty much know how to do quite a bit... I'm always tinkering around with DoomBuilder as it's rather easy to make maps.

[TheGZeus]

Yeah, if people want to like the Dreamcast that's their deal. But I don't understand either.
I'm not too hot for an API-based system, either.
Apparantly it has some good shooters..that the independantly wealthy can afford....

[TheGZeus]

But you still had pop ups on the Saturn, the Saturn could have had a unlimited draw distance if done properly (Virtua Racing has no textures).
That's not the point.
It's not fair comparing one port by one company to another port by another company and then somehow using it to demonstrate the power of these systems.

The point I was making is that these games are both ported from an arcade game.
Compare them to the arcade version.

And since this is a 32X forum, the Saturn doesn't really need to be part of this.

[Psy]

That's not the point.
It's not fair comparing one port by one company to another port by another company and then somehow using it to demonstrate the power of these systems.

The point I was making is that these games are both ported from an arcade game.
Compare them to the arcade version.


I know there was pop-ins in the arcade version but they could have been done away with in the Saturn version, the Model 1 arcade board did 180,000 polygons/sec while the Saturn could do 500,000 polygons/sec.


And since this is a 32X forum, the Saturn doesn't really need to be part of this.
The Sega Saturn come out shortly after the 32x not to mention Sega trying to restart the Sega CD with the Sega CDX the same year it released the 32x.

[TheGZeus]

...yes,... but isn't this a board dedicated to the 32X?

I'm just not sure to what end mentioning the Saturn could be.

Sega's problem before and after the Gen/MD was they ran the company like an arcade business in the console division.
"Here, throw hardware out, some people will buy it, some companies will make software, and then maybe more people will buy it!"
Or something like that.
I had thought of a better way of saying that...but I forgot. Whatever.

The cost of hardware being high is less of a concern when the buyer will recoup it from the players. That's not how consoles work.
Let's say someone bought a new genesis one, new SCD one, and a 32x.
How much is that system? $700?
Did they expect us to forget that we'd payed for the other parts because it was a while later?

I think Mars was a good idea, and they should have stuck with that.

Or they should have increased the ram, audio and video capabilities of the system and let themselves be a more mainstream Neo Geo and been happy with Fourth place for the time being.
Full backward compatability, well known proccessors, hardware sprites and background handling...
Sorry, now I'M complaining about the Saturn...

In any case, I think the newish consoles were a better idea than the 32X.

[Psy]

...yes,... but isn't this a board dedicated to the 32X?

Yup and we are talking about the 32x.

I'm just not sure to what end mentioning the Saturn could be.

US release dates
Sega CDX - April 1994
Sega 32x - November 1994
Sega Saturn - April 1995 (was suppose to be September 1995)

Basically Sega was stepping on its own toes and confusing the market, was the CDX the low end solution (with the Sega CD being the upgrade path) or was it the 32x, it couldn't be both as together they become more costly then the Saturn at launch.

[TheGZeus]

The CDX was some weirdness, alright.

Overall....you were just agreeing with me?

[Psy]

The CDX was some weirdness, alright.

Overall....you were just agreeing with me?
Without the 32x the CDX (and X'Eye) made sense as they allowed new comers (or people wanting a smaller footprint) to have the Sega CD and Genesis in one box.

The Sega CD sold 6 million units, that is 6 million customers that got pissed at Sega for changing the upgrade path.

[TheGZeus]

I don't want to get too far off topic again, but if they'd just done the most sensible thing in hindsight: make all the games on be CD games and reduce the price by the amount it would have cost to produce the carts we'd be talking a hell of alot more about the CD games.
Granted, the CD add-ons were expensive, but the it would pay for itself if they'd done more of those 'arcade pack' or whatever things.
Just put all the sonic games on one disc, etc.
Wouldn't have taken too long to port them.

Then once that's the de-facto format, they could start stuffing functions into fewer chips for those all-in-one systems.
Then things LIKE the 32X could come into play, like adding more RAM and colors.

The 32x is like getting someone a 24" bike with training wheels because they learned to ride their 20" without them. "You'd better upgrade slowly, ok?"
NO!
32 bit training wheels...
Gamers and programmers both were disappointed.

[Joe Redifer]

The Sega CD sold 6 million units, that is 6 million customers that got pissed at Sega for changing the upgrade path.

I didn't get pissed at Sega. That's 4 million more units than there are Xbox360's out there worldwide so far! Errr wait. I dunno.

[Psy]

On wiki it says XBox 360 sold 6 million units as of September.

[Joe Redifer]

OK yeah I was confusing it with the amount Gears of War has sold, which is 2 million.

[Psy]

OK yeah I was confusing it with the amount Gears of War has sold, which is 2 million.
Anyway my point is the Sega CD is probably the most successful console upgrade in history which is probably why Sega went with the CDX but the 32x stepped on the toes of the Sega CD.

[Joe Redifer]

I agree. If the 32X never existed, people couldn't complain about Sega bringing out unsuccessful upgrades, and I don't think they would. But the 32X did come out, so people group the Sega CD into that same category.

[David J.]

The last time I gave a shit about the 32X, I got FUCKED!

[Joe Redifer]

Sounds like giving a shit about the 32X could be a GOOD thing! :)

[Psy]

I agree. If the 32X never existed, people couldn't complain about Sega bringing out unsuccessful upgrades, and I don't think they would. But the 32X did come out, so people group the Sega CD into that same category.

That and the 32x did divert resources away from the Sega Saturn, even Virtua Fighter for the Saturn was a bit weak yet without the 32x in theory Sega would have had the resources to make good ports of all the model 1 arcade games (including Star Wars Arcade and that didn't see a Saturn port) in time for the Saturn launch. Plus more resources to go towards the Saturn development kit.

[TheGZeus]

I think it would have been more successful if they'd implemented the color upgrade(I heard somewhere that would have added $50 to the price, but I think it would have been worth it).

[David J.]

Sounds like giving a shit about the 32X could be a GOOD thing! :)

Not that kind of fucked. More like, you open a beer or a can of Coca-cola, and it explodes.

There's this soda I like to buy at work that's oh so good and oh so cheap (the "local" beverage companies make some great soda that is better than the brand name stuff) and every time I buy it, I have to be careful because it explodes when I open it.

[Psy]

I think it would have been more successful if they'd implemented the color upgrade(I heard somewhere that would have added $50 to the price, but I think it would have been worth it).
Yes lack of color was obvious in FMV but it wasn't a huge issue, just look at Sonic 3 or Sonic CD. The largest issue with the Sega CD (other then price) was speed, the Sega CD was so slow that the vast storage space of the CD medium could mostly only be used for sound tracks.

[TheGZeus]

I think it was as much the lack of memory as that.
But memory was expensive then...
Thing is, the memory in the SCD was about 1/4 the size of games like sonic 3, which theoretically would have doubled or so in size with added samples for better sound effects etc. maybe tripled with the larger pallate(though the SCD does have built in decompression, not sure how it's implemented). Most games would have minimal loading time if they focused on the sound chip, transform, and lower media cost.

Thing is, it's HARD to get good color sets when you have such a limited pallate and on screen set. ports basically have to be done from scratch.

The color set WAS a selling point, especially to people who didn't know that fancy looks do not = good game.
I was sitting playing Sonic and MUSHA at home and having people tell me at school that Super Mario was better because of the larger color pallate.
"Huh?" was all I could come up with at the time other than "It's faster!"

I still say going to 512/512 would have killed most other systems. The SNES had 512 of a 16 bit pallate, and the PCE had 418/512.
The speed plus that would have made even basic 16-bit games the best of the league.

Remember, the TG-16 failed in the USA due to marketing. it was BIG in Japan. The CD add-on was almost as successful, and those games were basically PCE games that were bigger, and the most common (Super) system card only has 256k of ram, as I recall, though it is addessable directly as work RAM by the system...

[evildragon]

SNES had 256 colors max, per scanline, not 512..

PC Engine was 482 colors (according to Answers.com)

[TheGZeus]

That's per BACKGROUND layer per scanline.
If they don't share a horizontal plane and/or a background layer, it's irrelevant.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snes#Technical_specifications
I UNDERstimated it:4,096
It IS however out of a 15-bit color pallate.

Oh, and on the PCE, I dropped it by one and misstyped. it doesn't matter, though. The point still stands.
Bring the Genesis up to it's full pallate and you've got a system that's slightly less smooth(blends etc) than a SNES, but faster than both.

[Joe Redifer]

The SNES can be made to put 32,768 colors on screen at once using transparency effects. The Turbo could do all 512 (I saw it on some demo), but generally it was 480-something.

32X can do 32,768 simultaneous as well. The options screen in Space Harrier was over 4,100, I believe.

[TheGZeus]

You're missing the point, and copy from the Wikis all you want, that won't change, I think.

The point is: The Genesis etc. lost largely in part to people's perception that all Genesis games were dark and grainy, and the others were colerful and vibrant.

The 32X would have been moot .

[Psy]

You're missing the point, and copy from the Wikis all you want, that won't change, I think.

The point is: The Genesis etc. lost largely in part to people's perception that all Genesis games were dark and grainy, and the others were colerful and vibrant.

The 32X would have been moot .

Lost? Genesis was the market leader (from 1992 to 1994) and as I said the Sega CD was probably the most successful add-on, it crushed the CD32, Atari Jaguar and sold about the same as the 3DO.

SNES was under powered, it needed help to run Star Fox when the Genesis with no help ran LHX attack helicopter and Race Drivin. Sega CD made the Genesis even more powerful by throwing in a 68000 @ 12.5 MHz, Sega could have easily make a Star Fox killer if it had put its best programmers to the task of pushing the Sega CD in terms of 3D. Even Pilotwings had a DSP on the cart to help the SNES.

Anyway It would have been nice if the Sega CD specs were closer to the CD32 (2 MB RAM, 2x speed CD Drive, 256 colors (262K colors in static screens)) but that would have drove up the cost.

As for the 32x as I said it stepped on the toes of the Sega CD that had 6 million users worldwide and over 100 titles in the US. Sega upgrading the Sega CD would have made more sense, coming out with another Sega CD with a double speed CD drive, 2 MB RAM and a color upgrade (we are talking 1994 so it wouldn't have cost as much).

[TheGZeus]

Well, the 68000 in the CD wasn't all that closely tied to the main one, so I hear.
Heresay, but Silpheed shows it does have alot of power.

I suppose that would have made sense, but that leaves alot of old version Sega CD users with a bad taste in their mouth.
That $50 difference for the color upgrade would have been reduced along with the Top Loading drive and smaller case etc.

The SCD was awesome, I love mine.
I just think the SNES would have had virtually NO chance to overtake the Genesis had they done the color upgrade. It DID overtake the Genesis, despite it's floaty, cartoony, slow games. The pretty colors impress at first, but how many SNES sites are there like this? I looked. They're all Angelfire and dedicated to a Genre more than anything.

Could the 68000 in the CD address that much RAM? I'm not sure how many address lines are dedicated to the RAM.
A 68000 can theoretically address 16MB or RAM, but in the Genesis alot of the address lines go directly to the Cart Port, and that reduces the RAM adressable by the proc.

I hope to learn more about hardware and FPGA programming so make a Genesis/CD compatible 32-bit system someday(not alone, nonono, and if/when it happens all plans will be released. Anything sold would be probably done by someone else and would be nothing more than PCBs and cases).

semi-off topic: I'm amazed Sega didn't have a modified(instruction set is slightly different, same as the 010) 68020/30/40 made for the Mars/32X/Saturn instead of the SH-1/2 setup.
A 68020 has NATIVE multiprocessing and backward compatability! The SH procs run 16-bit code with 32-bit addressing, but so can the entire 680x0 line!
The Saturn would have been (theoretically) fully backward compatible with the cart port and CD drive, but run 32-bit software and the programming libraries would have been available and familiar to their existing developers.
This idea is the basis for that FPGA system that will take forever and a day to get going. Chips switching modes, altering the RAM adresses, managing virtual bank switching, does it need the BIOS to run like an OS?? I DON'T KNOW!

[Joe Redifer]

Silpheed is almost all FMV streamed from the disc. There are very few actual polygons in the game anywhere.

The Genesis etc. lost largely in part to people's perception that all Genesis games were dark and grainy, and the others were colerful and vibrant.
Then why did the TurboGrafx-16 "lose"? It had a bunch of fantastic games and the graphics were a lot brighter and more colorful than those of the Genesis. By this logic it should have been more popular than the Genesis and second only to the SNES and 3DO. Oops, 3DO, with 16 million colors. How many units did it sell? Three?

I don't think I am copying from Wikis when I say I have tried a demo. And I am not copying anything from wikis, it's pretty much common knowledge, like the Genesis shadow and highlight mode.

[evildragon]

with shadow and highlight, can't the genesis do 183 colors?

[TheGZeus]

The TG-16 failed because of terrible marketing. It's that simple. Japanese marketing techniques don't work in the USA.
It was a success in Japan.

If it's common knowledg, why is it wrong? I mean, it would be better to copy the Wikis.

[evildragon]

ehh, the Wikis aren't always accurate.. The wikipedia is USER contributed.. sometimes it has inaccurate information..

[TheGZeus]

Just like this forum! I wonder where alot of that false info comes from...

[evildragon]

yea, hmm, i wonder...

[TheGZeus]

Well, you shouldn't.
Self-induced or not, delusions or disassociative states are not healthy.

[evildragon]

i wonder how this went off topic, considering all i did was state information about the cartridge port...

[TheGZeus]

i wonder how this went off topic, considering all i did was state information about the cartridge port...
Pay attention to which thread you're posting on, pose-boy.

[Psy]

I suppose that would have made sense, but that leaves alot of old version Sega CD users with a bad taste in their mouth.

Not as much as the 32x did and it would have ment their Sega CD collection playing faster.


That $50 difference for the color upgrade would have been reduced along with the Top Loading drive and smaller case etc.

At the time loading times were the biggest issue.



I just think the SNES would have had virtually NO chance to overtake the Genesis had they done the color upgrade.

You mean the Sega CD as the upgrade would be for Sega CD games just like the 32x doesn't improve colors on Genesis games.

Anyway if Sega did, Nintendo would probably have thrown in more powerful chips into its carts or probably gone ahead with the SNES CD add-on.



Could the 68000 in the CD address that much RAM? I'm not sure how many address lines are dedicated to the RAM.
A 68000 can theoretically address 16MB or RAM, but in the Genesis alot of the address lines go directly to the Cart Port, and that reduces the RAM adressable by the proc.

The Sega Genesis only has addresses for 4 MBytes (large carts used bank switching) in the cart.


I hope to learn more about hardware and FPGA programming so make a Genesis/CD compatible 32-bit system someday(not alone, nonono, and if/when it happens all plans will be released. Anything sold would be probably done by someone else and would be nothing more than PCBs and cases).

Here is a promising project C-ONE Reconfigurable Computer (http://c64upgra.de/c-one/) from the looks of it should be able to do the Sega Master System given a core at the very least a SG-1000/SC-3000.

[TheGZeus]

Not as much as the 32x did and it would have ment their Sega CD collection playing faster.


At the time loading times were the biggest issue.



You mean the Sega CD as the upgrade would be for Sega CD games just like the 32x doesn't improve colors on Genesis games.

Anyway if Sega did, Nintendo would probably have thrown in more powerful chips into its carts or probably gone ahead with the SNES CD add-on.



The Sega Genesis only has addresses for 4 MBytes (large carts used bank switching) in the cart.


Here is a promising project C-ONE Reconfigurable Computer (http://c64upgra.de/c-one/) from the looks of it should be able to do the Sega Master System given a core at the very least a SG-1000/SC-3000.
(excuse my laziness for not doing awesome quote skillz things)

The idea I'm proposing is that the cart version of games would have become the secondary version of releases. Lower cost, overall larger games, etc.

The idea that games would run faster is kind of.. I mean, you can't program the games to load more or more often. Alot of that's in software, from what I've read of interviews here. Also, adding colors later would be hard. And I DO think it would have hurt as much as the 32X, because if all you do is add colors and ram, the unit still costs as much as the 32X, and the new games don't work with the new unit.

Loading times don't seem that bad to me. I mean, a couple seconds doesn't seem so bad to me. The problem is that the incresed colors would increase the number of loading times without more ram. Then we get into things like RAM carts(like the Saturn) and such.

Nintendo adding more chips or coming out with their own(equally slow) add-on doesn't sound like a threat to this theoretical version of the SCD.
The carts would have been more costly to begin with, and then the chips would have added aven MORE to the cost.


The GENESIS can address that much, but again, that's the cart port. Some address lines might be doing other things, but in theory, the proc can address 16mb.
The CD side of things is another matter, as the Genesis can only address ~240k of the CD's ram, and only with the CD's 68k halted. it might be able to address more or less, depending on how it's implemented.



Yeah, that thing gave me the idea.

[Joe Redifer]

Perhaps a bit off topic, but I notice when I load Streets of Rage or Revenge of Shinobi from that Sega Classics disc, the CD drives spins down (disc stops spinning) for the entire game. It never starts spinning again, and those games are 4 megs each, perhaps a bit more since the vocal effects were redone in much higher quality with the Sega CD's PCM instead of the Genesis' PCM. Not sure where this fits in the whole "Genesis can only access 240k of the Sega CD RAM" issue, unless the Sega CD 68K is actually running those games. I know the Sega CD 68K is the one running the PCM channels because to my knowledge that's the only processor that can do that.

[TheGZeus]

Bank switching? It's totally possible to occasionally halt the CPU in the SCD and then allow the Genesis access to 3 banks of 2 megabits. Revenge of Shinobi is only 540kilobytes to begin with. The added samples would have gone in the additional 512kbits of sample ram.

Revenge of Shinobi was only 540 to begin with. The 68000 in the SCD does several things.

[evildragon]

Sega CD has 732.4 KB RAM..

It also has 62.5 KB PCM RAM...

(This was to Joe)

[Melf]

Well, you shouldn't.
Self-induced or not, delusions or disassociative states are not healthy.

Enough with the drama between you and evildragon, please. You guys have dragged this back and forth across multiple forums, and I don't want it here. If you can't get along, please use the forum's ignore feature.

This is the only warning I will give. The next time this comes up, I'm going to dish out week-long forced vacations.

[Joe Redifer]

My illegally pirated ROM of Revenge of Shinobi is 512KB, which is 4 megs. I think the only game from that time that was over that amount was Ghouls n' Ghosts at 5 megs. Not too long after we got Phantasy Star 2 with the immense 6 Mega Power! The mind can barely even comprehend such power.

It also has 62.5 KB PCM RAM...
I'm pretty sure it was 512K (I had forgotten about the PCM RAM).

[evildragon]

My illegally pirated ROM of Revenge of Shinobi is 512KB, which is 4 megs. I think the only game from that time that was over that amount was Ghouls n' Ghosts at 5 megs. Not too long after we got Phantasy Star 2 with the immense 6 Mega Power! The mind can barely even comprehend such power.


I'm pretty sure it was 512K (I had forgotten about the PCM RAM).
you're thinking 512 KiloBITS.. I only talk about KiloBYTES..

(so, you're right, and im right, we just got the measurement confused, that's all, lol)

[Joe Redifer]

How many kiloBYTES in a megaBYTE? 1,024. I thought the Sega .... nevermind.

[evildragon]

damn, my bit/byte calculator screwed up..

thanks for the correction..

[Psy]

(excuse my laziness for not doing awesome quote skillz things)

The idea I'm proposing is that the cart version of games would have become the secondary version of releases. Lower cost, overall larger games, etc.

I take it you mean the CD version.


The idea that games would run faster is kind of.. I mean, you can't program the games to load more or more often.

A double speed CD-ROM drive means the CPU is waiting less for the data to come off the drive even for old Sega CD games. More RAM would not effect old games but it wouldn't be hard to recompile games to make use of the extra RAM, meaning popular games could easily be republished to make use the extra RAM.



Alot of that's in software, from what I've read of interviews here. Also, adding colors later would be hard. And I DO think it would have hurt as much as the 32X, because if all you do is add colors and ram, the unit still costs as much as the 32X, and the new games don't work with the new unit.

adding colors, RAM and a double speed drive

Okay lets look at what Commodore did, in March 1991 they released the CDTV (single speed drive, 1 Meg RAM, 68000 @ 7Mhz, 32 colors) very similar to the Sega CD (single speed drive 68000 @ 12.5MHz, about 1 Meg RAM, 64 colors), the system was a huge flop but in September 1993 Commodore comes out the CD32 (Double speed drive, 68EC020 @ 14.3Mhz, 2 MB, 256 colors, mostly compatible with CDTV titles) in 1993 the CD32 was outselling PC CD-ROM drives in Europe, Commodore couldn't manufacture CD32s fast enough but they were still hemorrhaging money so Commodore went belly up in April 1994.

The Sega CD (as old as the CDTV) had far more titles the CDTV and a larger user base (but still small compared to the number of Genesis users) and far more resources at the time then Commodore.



Loading times don't seem that bad to me. I mean, a couple seconds doesn't seem so bad to me. The problem is that the incresed colors would increase the number of loading times without more ram. Then we get into things like RAM carts(like the Saturn) and such.

From the usenet at the time regarding the 32x add on and the SegaCD


Date: Sat, Sep 17 1994 11:13 pm
Groups: rec.games.video.sega

Isn't the SegaCD kinda underpowered to be used for 32x games? I mean how
great can the games get when you got a dirt slow single speed CDROM drive
transferring paltry amounts of data and access times almost hitting one
second. Couple this with the fact that there is only 6mbits of ram in the
SegaCD if i remember correctly.. I'm looking forward to seeing what the
32x CD titles will be like but i wouldn't expect anything too intense. Hope I'm wrong.

- TM23


Nintendo adding more chips or coming out with their own(equally slow) add-on doesn't sound like a threat to this theoretical version of the SCD.

SNES with a 68000 would actually be very impressive.

[TheGZeus]

I take it you mean the CD version.


A double speed CD-ROM drive means the CPU is waiting less for the data to come off the drive even for old Sega CD games. More RAM would not effect old games but it wouldn't be hard to recompile games to make use of the extra RAM, meaning popular games could easily be republished to make use the extra RAM.



adding colors, RAM and a double speed drive

Okay lets look at what Commodore did, in March 1991 they released the CDTV (single speed drive, 1 Meg RAM, 68000 @ 7Mhz, 32 colors) very similar to the Sega CD (single speed drive 68000 @ 12.5MHz, about 1 Meg RAM, 64 colors), the system was a huge flop but in September 1993 Commodore comes out the CD32 (Double speed drive, 68EC020 @ 14.3Mhz, 2 MB, 256 colors, mostly compatible with CDTV titles) in 1993 the CD32 was outselling PC CD-ROM drives in Europe, Commodore couldn't manufacture CD32s fast enough but they were still hemorrhaging money so Commodore went belly up in April 1994.

The Sega CD (as old as the CDTV) had far more titles the CDTV and a larger user base (but still small compared to the number of Genesis users) and far more resources at the time then Commodore.



From the usenet at the time regarding the 32x add on and the SegaCD


Date: Sat, Sep 17 1994 11:13 pm
Groups: rec.games.video.sega

Isn't the SegaCD kinda underpowered to be used for 32x games? I mean how
great can the games get when you got a dirt slow single speed CDROM drive
transferring paltry amounts of data and access times almost hitting one
second. Couple this with the fact that there is only 6mbits of ram in the
SegaCD if i remember correctly.. I'm looking forward to seeing what the
32x CD titles will be like but i wouldn't expect anything too intense. Hope I'm wrong.

- TM23


SNES with a 68000 would actually be very impressive.

I did mean CD version

REcompiling games, I suppose, but that's still leaving people behind. Putting things out of print then re-hashing them in a fancier package and charging you for the coding time(remember, alot of games go 'bargain price' and if you pull out the code and start the process again, yeah. Maybe not as high as before, but still) and now it doesn't work on your original add-on.

The 32 VS TV is a whole 'nother set of issues. It was a fully 32-bit setup(going from 16), which by then was native to programmers at the time for computers, so it had some launch titles.
HOWEVER:
The Commodore didn't have staying power for many reasons, mostly because all it was was an Amiga that was stripped down and shoved in a box, and that resulted in Amiga games being speed-ported, and that's it. FM Towns Marty-ville. Cult status.

And I honestly laugh when I hear "Access times reaching one second!" WOW a WHOLE SECOND to play a game! (looks at playstation across the room) AAAHAHAHAHAHA.
Not to mention....every system since. Even the N64 had loading times! Compression!!

That's the problem being first to market, you get to be the one to bear the first gripes, and be saddled with them forever, whether or not you're the only one to have them.


Some games that didn't load anything until you were done with all the data in the cache(I think Keio) seem to have unreasonable loading times, but the games I really dig (SHMUPS!!!) were generally very well executed in that regard. Load new data while the old is still being used. Novel concept.
Though that does make redbook auudio harder to implement, I think too many games relied heavily on it as the only source of music, when you have 14 other channels to work with...


In any case, increasing the drive speed later would have remedied things without affecting compatability. Happened to the playstation(and it still had big loads...personally the only reason I have one and games is it was a gift from a friend who moved...wanna buy some playstation games?).

I think the original Play Station was going to be very similar to the one that came out, but with slightly lower specs.
Think about it, the PS had weak 2D(would have left it to the SNES, it got ignored) the sound was kinda wimpy(SPC was there, just add some stuff) focused on 3D(SNES can't do that well) 32-bit...
But in general...yeah, the rest of the specs with a great proc, and the Gen had no chance, other than COOL games pre Mortal Kombat fiasco.

[Psy]

REcompiling games, I suppose, but that's still leaving people behind. Putting things out of print then re-hashing them in a fancier package and charging you for the coding time(remember, alot of games go 'bargain price' and if you pull out the code and start the process again, yeah. Maybe not as high as before, but still) and now it doesn't work on your original add-on.

It can since this time around you know both hardware exists so the code can check what device it is working on (it is a CD so it is possible to have to two builds of the games with a smart loader that launches the right version based on what machine it is put into to).

Also this re-hashing would be only be logical for popular games that would mostly be in the hands of the 6 million old Sega CD owners.


The 32 VS TV is a whole 'nother set of issues. It was a fully 32-bit setup(going from 16), which by then was native to programmers at the time for computers, so it had some launch titles.

Sega had the resources to make new Sega CD games.


HOWEVER:
The Commodore didn't have staying power for many reasons, mostly because all it was was an Amiga that was stripped down and shoved in a box, and that resulted in Amiga games being speed-ported, and that's it. FM Towns Marty-ville. Cult status.

The CD32 sold very well till Commodore went bankrupt in April 1994 so it is Commodore that didn't have staying power because they were losing too much money so much they couldn't even afford parts to manufacture enough CD32s for the holiday season.


And I honestly laugh when I hear "Access times reaching one second!" WOW a WHOLE SECOND to play a game! (looks at playstation across the room) AAAHAHAHAHAHA.
Not to mention....every system since. Even the N64 had loading times! Compression!!

From the Ken Balthaser (http://www.sega-16.com/Interview-%20Ken%20Balthaser.php) interview

"Ken Balthaser: I tried to explain that to Sega at the time, but they had this vision of "oh boy, now we have this CD; everything's going to be different." My point to them was that the big problem was the pipeline. You have this great and massive storage device, and you've got a system that can run graphics very quickly, etc., but you've got this little straw — I tried to characterize the inefficiency to the other executives, to try and show them what the problem was. Try to imagine that you have this great big oil tanker sitting off the coast with all this oil in it. You want to bring it ashore (the oil), but all you have is a garden hose. And basically, that's the analogy. You had this storage device, this tanker, with a huge capacity for storage, but you just can't get it off the tanker fast enough because of the little garden hose. And that was the whole problem with the Sega CD. Yeah, you could store all that data, but you couldn't get it off fast enough at times, to do what you wanted to do."



That's the problem being first to market, you get to be the one to bear the first gripes, and be saddled with them forever, whether or not you're the only one to have them.

The Sega CD wasn't the first to market, the CD for the TG-16 was.

Anyway the 32x is the same idea except it ignores the largest gripe, the load times of the Sega CD, it also ignored the limitation of carts for example King Of Fighters '94 on the Neo-Geo is 12 Megabytes, King Of Fighters '99 is 75 Megs, see the problem? The 32x could never solve the problem of growing game sizes that were cost restrictive in the medium of carts, 32x couldn't even have arcade perfect 2-D arcade games without carts that cost more then the Sega-CD add-on (Some AVS Neo-Geo games were $300 new). SNK released the Neo-Geo CD in 1994 but it was only a single speed drive (showing load time is what gamers were looking at not colors), think what shape Sega would have been if in 1994 SNK released a double speed Neo-Geo CD and when gamers look at Sega they see the 32x.


In any case, increasing the drive speed later would have remedied things without affecting compatability. Happened to the playstation(and it still had big loads...personally the only reason I have one and games is it was a gift from a friend who moved...wanna buy some playstation games?).

Adding RAM and extra colors also wouldn't effect compatibility either, old games wouldn't take advantage of them but new games could.

[TheGZeus]

Again, due to poor makreting hardly anyone even knew the TG-16 existed.

The Neo Geo CD had a pretty strong following in Japan.

I suppose the ram and compatability thing was proven by the Game Gear Master Gear convertor. I concede that.
Hoever, putting two versions of a game on one disc, for re-hashes and/or backward compatible games... I think that's complex an issue forom various standpoints to warrant it/s own thread. I don't know where I even stand on it any more.

Again, that interview shows that in my opinion people were either expecting the CD system to BE a new system as opposed to a means of even more bank switching with lower costs.
Loat times would be a non issue if people had used to sound chip and loaded data into 2mbit banks sequentially loading.

Again, I think re-issueing games that used to be on carts at a significantly lower cost would have been a great idea.
New games that would have been on carts could be on the CD system.

That alone could have been done with the original system.

What I'm saying is that with more colors(maybe ram...ram cart?) initially OR later on(this needs it's own thread! It's a very interesting debate. thanks!) would have left the SNES in the dust and Nintendo's desire to not make the CD system themselves and still keep all the money left them with nothing in the end.
The fact that Sega's CD system had taken over (hypothetical) would have given players like Sony, and Philips even, leverage to increase their chare of the profit.
Would that have made Nintendo cave more, to get ahead, or made them pissed that these upstarts were asking so much(more than reality)?

[Psy]

My point here is the 32x didn't fix the short comings of the Genesis (except colors), yes the 32x did boost CPU but that wasn't really an issue, the Neo-Geo only had 68000 @12 MHz and still did better looking 2-D games then the 32x (of course the Neo-Geo could do 4,096 colors at once and had massive carts but still with just a 68000 12mhz MHz CPU)

What was really holding the Genesis back was cart sizes and transfer rates on the Sega CD (yes and color), even RAM was more of an issue then CPU power.

At least with the Saturn it was upgraded where it was most lacking with the RAM cart upgrade.

[Joe Redifer]

Speaking of the Neo Geo, I don't think I've seen a game for that system with more than 200 colors on the screen at once. Most of them fall below 100.

[megadriveworld]

I still stand by what I said. The virtua games on the 32x are second rate, the games are just too much of a load for the 32X's specs, the gameplay may have been okay, but the graphics and just overall feel.... I hate the 3D games on the 32x, 1 or 2 polygons for a road, horible. But if developers actually bothered to put the effort into, you would have seen Virtua games looking and playing great on the Saturn just like the originals. Wasn't Virtua Cop on the Saturn pretty good anyway? Trust me though, Virtua Cop on the 32x would have been horrible.

[TheGZeus]

My point here is the 32x didn't fix the short comings of the Genesis (except colors), yes the 32x did boost CPU but that wasn't really an issue, the Neo-Geo only had 68000 @12 MHz and still did better looking 2-D games then the 32x (of course the Neo-Geo could do 4,096 colors at once and had massive carts but still with just a 68000 12mhz MHz CPU)

What was really holding the Genesis back was cart sizes and transfer rates on the Sega CD (yes and color), even RAM was more of an issue then CPU power.

At least with the Saturn it was upgraded where it was most lacking with the RAM cart upgrade.
Well, I was a greeing with you on those points for the most part.

I just think Ram wasn't THAT big of an issue. Again, the CD add-on does add a fairly big boost in power, as Silpheed seems to show.
And again, a cart could have solved the ram problems. They just went the totally wrong direction with the CD.
FMV games that were rarely any fun, same price for the games...
Could the RAM and color expansion have both been at the cart port? I mean, if all it was was an expansion to full 512 and more ram, that would have been one whole hell of alot cheaper than a 32X and could have been used by both(the 32XCD games used the 32X RAM) carts(again, a secondary market in one version of this scenario) and the CD-based games.
I think going to full 15-bit color was a mistake. The gains with the processing and graphics of games at the time were minimal. Smoother games were POSSIBLE, but...meh.
Games on Sega systems were usually more focused on action and excitement than 'stare at the pretty colors*coughMariocough*.
So what would this piece of RAM, 2 cables, video and maybe small MMU-ty[pe processor cost? If they sold it at a slight loss/at cost, maybe $50 then?
After thinking about it, newer games wouldn't need to take advantage of these features.
The higher color graphics would go into the 'cart' RAM and the game data (if managed like Neo Geo CD games were (the CDZ had more RAM, but didn't require new games for fewer loading times) would be able to use it or not.
The CDX/Multimega/something a bit less portable ambitious would have all these things in one box.

[Psy]

Well, I was a greeing with you on those points for the most part.

I just think Ram wasn't THAT big of an issue.

Look at what the RAM expansion cart was used for in the Sega Saturn, it was used to have more data cached were the system can easily use it, meaning ports of 2D arcade games could have more detail as more could be stored were the Saturn can quickly access it.

On the Sega CD there was 768K main RAM and 128K for the CD cache on top of that drive is only a single speed.


Again, the CD add-on does add a fairly big boost in power, as Silpheed seems to show.
And again, a cart could have solved the ram problems. They just went the totally wrong direction with the CD.
FMV games that were rarely any fun, same price for the games...

I agree


Could the RAM and color expansion have both been at the cart port? I mean, if all it was was an expansion to full 512 and more ram, that would have been one whole hell of alot cheaper than a 32X and could have been used by both(the 32XCD games used the 32X RAM) carts(again, a secondary market in one version of this scenario) and the CD-based games.

Yes the drive would still slow but a RAM cart would mean more data would be able to be cached but this would speed up games that makes use of the extra RAM just like the extra RAM in the Saturn does not do anything for games that don't make use of it.



So what would this piece of RAM, 2 cables, video and maybe small MMU-ty[pe processor cost? If they sold it at a slight loss/at cost, maybe $50 then?

It would depend at amount RAM, RAM would be most costly part by 1994, it would be much less then the 32x unless you want tons of RAM.

[Joe Redifer]

Again, the CD add-on does add a fairly big boost in power, as Silpheed seems to show.
And again, Silpheed was mostly streamed FMV. It's not processing all of that as polygons. Not much "power" in FMV.

[evildragon]

those polygons are real, as far as i can tell.. the backgrounds are videos, but the ships, the intro demo, that's all real polygons..

[TheGZeus]

Look at what the RAM expansion cart was used for in the Sega Saturn, it was used to have more data cached were the system can easily use it, meaning ports of 2D arcade games could have more detail as more could be stored were the Saturn can quickly access it.

On the Sega CD there was 768K main RAM and 128K for the CD cache on top of that drive is only a single speed.


I agree


Yes the drive would still slow but a RAM cart would mean more data would be able to be cached but this would speed up games that makes use of the extra RAM just like the extra RAM in the Saturn does not do anything for games that don't make use of it.



It would depend at amount RAM, RAM would be most costly part by 1994, it would be much less then the 32x unless you want tons of RAM.
The 32x has about 2 megs of ram in it, so you take away a few custom processors and add...one you reduce the number of load TIMES, and if carefully programmed, you could make up(somewhat) for the slow speeds on the early models.

For the NEWER version that would either include the cart port ram in it or with it in some fashion, the 2X drive could be added to then double the results.

This idea is starting to rule.

Full backward compatability for both the systems and the games, faster overall, more power in general...
I think it's a sweet deal.

[evildragon]

i have a double speed laser assembly, that's to be a direct replacement, to the same laser assembly used in one of the two revision sega CD 2's..

I personally don't know if it'll work, im not familiar with the CD-ROM controller used in the Sega CD.. i'll put it in, and test, but there's no guarantee's..

[Joe Redifer]

those polygons are real, as far as i can tell.. the backgrounds are videos, but the ships, the intro demo, that's all real polygons..
What method are you using to discern what is polygons and what isn't? I know the enemy ships can be viewed in a "polygon test" and those are definitely real polygons, but the jury is still out on the actual in-game enemies. They could be rendered sprites (similar to Donkey Kong Country) since they always go in the same pattern and don't really need to be polygons. I'm not sure on those yet.

[evildragon]

oh it's quite easy, because the only FMV being played is the background (earth, stars, etc).. so that means the single speed laser is just a bit busy doing that..

sure, you can fit multiple sprites in RAM, but honestly, why? if it can do the polygons, why bother? even you said to me, that the batman racing game really pushed a lot.. i told you about that one too... it REALLY pushes the envelope on the Sega CD alone..

that whole intro though on Slipheed is real polygons... it's not a video..

The 2X drive when in the SCD did not help it load faster.. it also lacked RedBook audio, it was, very scratchy, and distorted.. the games loaded though, though i don't think they were any faster.. i think the CD-ROM controller can't handle the extra speed, or knows how to use it.. i'll need to read up on it..

[Joe Redifer]

oh it's quite easy, because the only FMV being played is the background (earth, stars, etc).. so that means the single speed laser is just a bit busy doing that..
That doesn't have anything to do with anything. It's not just the earth and stars that are FMV, but the big ships that blow up, etc etc. Still that doesn't have anything to do with if the enemies are real polygons or animated sprites.

that whole intro though on Slipheed is real polygons... it's not a video..
How do you discern this?

[evildragon]

oh geez, this is going to get nowhere..

How about this, you do you discern that it ISNT polygons?

Everywhere I look, it's real polygons, even after looking at the intro.. To pull off that big of a screen, with the full sound it did, and the resolution it did, that would be hard for a video to do.. just look at MegaRace, it did almost full screen video, but notice his voice is all choppy.. it's too much... Also, every video I see, has some artifacts from compression, but Slipheed doesn't show any signs of compression...

[Joe Redifer]

I don't know for sure, but any system that can't handle a two player Golden Axe can't render that many polygons. :) Especially when the 12.5Mhz CPU is busy streaming the BGs.

Silpheed also has a palette of about 8 colors.

Mega Race is a bad example because complete losers programmed that game. Everyone's favorite game of all time, Tomcat Alley, did full screen FMV without stuttering or hiccups in the sound.

Here's some moderately interesting reading stolen from Black_Tiger on the pcenginefx forums:

The reason that they might make simple 3D prerendered sprites in a game like Silpheed is the same reason why they did in so many other 16-bit games like Sapphire. Developers thought that it was impressive to gamers.

Hell, NEC thought that the PC-FX was better off prerendering all 3D going into the 32-bit generation.

As for how could they make the options mode models realtime and the sprites prerendered, I imagine that it'd be a lot easier for the Sega-CD to render them one at a time instead of a screen-full at a time.

And the one thing we do know for sure, is how much Game Arts invested into doing prerendered polygon visuals that were supposed to look like the real deal in Silpheed.

Plus we know how crazy developers are when it comes to doing stuff like this. Like adding a chip to Megaman X(?) just for a single wireframe enemy or Final Fantasy VII mixing a bunch of fmv with it's system generated models and still using the PSX models in full fmv sequences.

I'm not saying that I know for sure either way, in fact before your recent posts I had always assumed that they were definitely prerendered, but now entertain the possibility that they might be realtime.

But there are plently of reasons to explain any scenario. I'm going to fire up the game for the first time in years to take a look for myself now.

One giveaway that they're realtime is if each "sprite" has a unique shape, since they would all turn out different in each frame.

[evildragon]

well, in Slipheed, notice it gets more complex, BIG ships start coming in, and when you fire them, they break up into thousands of polygons.. That seems a tad hard to do in Sprites..

And who knows, maybe the Genesis itself did the polygons, while the 12MHz chip did the BG and sound? Don't forget, while not normally done, the Genesis alone can do 3D graphics too... (F-22 is a poor example of this)

[Joe Redifer]

No ship that I shoot at breaks into thousands of polygons. whenever I shoot an in-game enemy, it dies with a pathetic sprite-based explosion that is just as teeny-tiny as the enemy. The big ship on the right that blows up in Stage 1 when you hear "OMFG!!! Evasive maneuvers!!! Laser Scratching!!!!" is part of the prerendered BG, not sprites. By the way, what the hell is laser scratching? Is that what's happening to my Dreamcast games?

Also the intros seem to start VERY fast, just like streaming FMV type stuff does. You'd think there'd be a bit more loading time if it were loading all of those polygons.

[evildragon]

did you ever notice that slipheed hangs at the SEGA screen with sonic shooting stars? i think there is where it's prepping itself..

see all the polygon explosions: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEATDzNZBkU

[Joe Redifer]

I know what explosions you are talking about. They are prerendered. Notice how everything in the background runs at less than half of the framerate as everything in the foreground? Everything in the background is running at 15fps max, I think. Whereas everything in the foreground (player ship, enemies) moves at 60fps. Also if the Sega CD could do those massive explosions, why aren't the bosses more impressive? I like the part at the end of stage 1 where a voice says "A big tallyho! Look at the size of that thing!!!!!!" And then it approaches and is a teeny weeny little thing not even as big as Robotnik in Sonic 1. And remember, the Sega CD isn't even powerful enough to run Golden Axe in two player mode. It's just too weak!

Anyway, some screen caps explaining what I fully believe everything to be:

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/silpheed1.gif


http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/silpheed2.gif

I know the power-ups and little diamonds are 100% definitely sprites (that don't even use scaling), but I am leaning towards the enemies being polygons since they are so teeny weeny tiny and pathetic, even the wimpy Sega CD could handle it.

As far as Batman Returns, I told you about that, it has better scaling than the Neo Geo and it is because it was programmed here in the US. Nobody in Japan knows anything about the Sega CD, as evidenced by Golden Axe and their lack of knowledge of the scaling chip.

[evildragon]

well, the way i see it is this.. the background polygons are done by the sega CD... the forground polygons are done by the Genesis.. the background video is also Sega CD..

i still think they are real polygons.. i just don't see the video compression in them...

[Joe Redifer]

I don't think that the 68K in the Sega CD is powerful enough to stream video, render a crapload of polygons and deal with PCM all at the same time. It's not much faster than the Genesis 68K, and we know it couldn't even come close to doing all of that simultaneously.

Remember, you're supposed to think that they're real polygons and be impressed.

[evildragon]

don't forget what the Genesis 68k could do alone.. play Duke Nukem 3D, handling the 3D objects, and game logic.. though, it sucked, it DID do it..

let examine the files in Silpheed tomorrow, i'll see if i can find any video files, and what's on them..

[TheGZeus]

the Sega CD isn't even powerful enough to run Golden Axe in two player mode. It's just too weak!

That's execution.
I'm pretty sure they just threw the original game data with a little bank switching info into the SCD RAM and had the Genesis doing most of the work. That's alot of memory accessing, and the SCD's 68k has to halt at each access.

[Ash]

The 32x has about 2 megs of ram in it, so you take away a few custom processors and add...one you reduce the number of load TIMES, and if carefully programmed, you could make up(somewhat) for the slow speeds on the early models.

For the NEWER version that would either include the cart port ram in it or with it in some fashion, the 2X drive could be added to then double the results.

This idea is starting to rule.

Full backward compatability for both the systems and the games, faster overall, more power in general...
I think it's a sweet deal.

2MB!? Lol. Look at this:

http://24.3.154.255:59663/misc2/games/scans/32x_box_specs.jpg

and thats taken from the 32x's box. more proof is in the dissection of the 32x itself which reveals two Toshiba TC511664BJ-80 x16 Fast Page Mode DRAMs... 256KB each..... the same DRAM used in Virtua Racing...... 256KB x 2 = 512KB or...... 4Mbit. 2MB.... lol. And don't think I didn't open both of them up to verify....

[TheGZeus]

(h)oops.
That's what I get for trying to use my memory instead of a rererence.

Hmm...
That DOES throw a different picture on that idea.

The MMU in the unit would be able to address whatever WOULD be used as a whole, so it doesn't matter the number of units.
I'm actually considering looking up old memory chip price lists to see what would have been best.....done considering. no fucking way AHAHAHHAAH.

Yeah, even i'm not that obsessed with this idea.
Insofar as the VDP, i wonder if it might have been cheaper to stick the chip from the System 16 in there....but then the backward compatability of the overlayed layers gets hard without one hell of a devkit....and what about Sync...

GAAAH! mixing analog and digital!!! Digital alone is hard enough! then you take soemthing I get, like analog and smack me in the face with using one to make another to controll one aspect of the first.....
BRAIN NO LIKE.

Yeah.
That's why I shouldn't try to use my memory for...things.

[Joe Redifer]

All audio mixing is done in the analog domain.

[TheGZeus]

Yay?

[Joe Redifer]

Probably.

[evildragon]

no fool, all the audio is DIGITAL... XD don't ya hear the snap-crackle-pop?

[Joe Redifer]

Digital = perfect. :roll:

[evildragon]

NOT if it's handled by SEGA ;)

leave it to them, to hire Michael Jackson to do Sonic 3's music..

[TheGZeus]

........-_-

[Joe Redifer]

I just wanted to add to the whole "Silpheed is FMV" argument by suggesting you all look at the Sega CD game called "Star Blade". It is by Namco and has similar graphics to Silpheed. Like Silpheed, the CD is almost always accessing the disc non stop, but Star Blade doesn't have any music at all to stream. Why is it accessing? Because the game is streamed FMV like Silpheed, that's why. The only thing in Star Blade that isn't streamed are the wireframe enemies, and when there are more than a few wireframe enemies on the screen at once, the game slows down quite a bit, even with nothing else in the background but stars.

There is no way Silpheed can be real polygons.

[TheGZeus]

Easy to test.
There are ways to extact FMV from SCD games.

Do it.

[Joe Redifer]

I have no idea how to do that. I've never seen it done. Star Blade is, however, 386.3 MB and that is without any redbook audio.

[TheGZeus]

I decided not to read that, as I've said my piece.

[Psy]

I'm actually considering looking up old memory chip price lists to see what would have been best.....done considering. no fucking way AHAHAHHAAH.

The SegaCD has 768K the 512k of the 32x brings it up to 1,280k that is still a nice jump on memory and the 32x striped of the CPUs would have been cheaper.

[TheGZeus]

This thread has gotten me so intensely interested in layout and design for console hardware that I have the most basic design for an FPGA-based system done.
i know what chips to use for the most part.
I know what most of them need to do.

I just don't know how to get them to do it...yet.

It started with the SCD/Gen and I just kept bumping up features, attempting to keep some kind of backwards compatability, then I realised that backward compatability can be done with a reconfiguration of the FPGA chips on old software being detected.
hard part would be the way I've got things layed out I think that cartridges would need to be 'dumped' into memory and then read through a kind of pseudo-'Cart emulation.'

It's now become a very powerful and simple to program for(to those who know older systems) 8/16/32/hybrid system that has software selectable/custamisable components.
I think building one of them would be very expensive.
If certain portions can be changed to hard-wired VS FPGA on the prototype and some company put it into production(I'll take 10% on the back end, thank you ;) ) that would make if fairly affordable, but not that marketable.

[Joe Redifer]

It's settled then. Silpheed and Star Blade use FMV and not real polygons.

[TheGZeus]

See no trolling, hear no trolling, speak no trolling? yes.

[HAM mode]

"But you still had pop ups on the Saturn, the Saturn could have had a unlimited draw distance if done properly (Virtua Racing has no textures)."

is this corrrect? you mean to say there was no pop up on the sega saturn or draw in? curious is the satrun was capable in theory.

my daytona had pop up all over the place.

[Joe Redifer]

He's talking about a port of Virtua Racing, not Daytona.

[HAM mode]

"He's talking about a port of Virtua Racing, not Daytona."

I understand that. I thought he/she meant that the Saturn was capable of unlimited draw distance period. The closest I could think of would be Sonic R due to transparencies.

[Joe Redifer]

No, he/she meant that because there are no textures in the game, more memory could be devoted to onscreen polygons. Playstation fans say that the Saturn can not do any transparencies ever, so obviously when we see transparencies on that system we are hallucinating.

[HAM mode]

ah okay. i figured there was something lost in translation there. without textures the saturn had an unlimited draw distance? i didn't know that.

not to jump all over the place but in terms of silpheed there is no way the backgrounds are polygons. just the small enemy ships and your own ship.

plus i beat all 12 levels of snail on sega master system so i'm not sweating it either:)

[Psy]

ah okay. i figured there was something lost in translation there. without textures the saturn had an unlimited draw distance? i didn't know that.

No hardware can have an unlimited draw distance but the Saturn could in theory draw the complete distance of a Virtua Racing track meaning the player can see right to the last object in their field of view and the popins could occur where the player view is blocked (so from the point of view from the player there are no popins)

[Joe Redifer]

plus i beat all 12 levels of snail on sega master system so i'm not sweating it either:)
So did I. Snail Maze rocks hardcore. The music owns. Hell, it PWNZ. Vowels are not good enough for Snail Maze.

[Mr Smith]

See no trolling, hear no trolling, speak no trolling? yes.

I think we should all club together a bit of cash and make this into a film. :D

[Symos]

Because of the 32x' support for cd-roms via the mega CD, I got to thinking, Could they have made 3d games for the CD, combining the improved graphics with the extra space of a CD? Or were cart games the only means to create 3d games for the system?

[TheGZeus]

I'm sure they could have made anything for anything, however, there wasn't much ram available.
512k isn't alot to work with.

[Elusive]

No, he/she meant that because there are no textures in the game, more memory could be devoted to onscreen polygons. Playstation fans say that the Saturn can not do any transparencies ever, so obviously when we see transparencies on that system we are hallucinating.

The Playstation had graphical capabilities built into the hardware, so when a game was ported to the Saturn it was easier just to do the ol' lattice trick and take the afternoon off, rather than make the effort to milk the power of the machine. I reckon it was this that started the idea 'the saturn wasn't built to be a 3d machine it was added at the last second not like the playstation hurrr'.

[Mendicant]

But Saturn WASN'T built to be a 3D machine. The 3D processor was added at the last second, not like the PlayStation.

hurrr :P

[Elusive]

But Saturn WASN'T built to be a 3D machine. The 3D processor was added at the last second, not like the PlayStation.

hurrr :P

There isn't a '3D processor' in the Saturn - however, the image of a harassed overworked Japanese labourer hammering a microchip onto Saturn motherboards at the end of an assembly line cracks me up :)

edit: I mean there is no chip which says 'do 3D ok', just like there isn't a 3D processor in the Xbox.

[Mendicant]

Don't forget the hourly recital of oath/pledge of obedience to the company. :D

[Psy]

There isn't a '3D processor' in the Saturn - however, the image of a harassed overworked Japanese labourer hammering a microchip onto Saturn motherboards at the end of an assembly line cracks me up :)

edit: I mean there is no chip which says 'do 3D ok', just like there isn't a 3D processor in the Xbox.
Offically in Sega's development manual the VDP1 can do polygons. What Sega means by this is you have 4 points on you object, you tell the VDP1 the locations of these points and the VDP1 will automatically know how to draw it and place a texture on it.

Those points still need to be calculated and given to the VDP1 but it is way better at doing 3D then the Genesis's VDP. So you could call the VDP1 a polygon chip but it still needs the CPU to do the math.