32X: Yay or nay?

[16bitter]

Not only as far as enjoyment as a console, but also as far as what it did to Sega's name in the industry and the role it probably played in their downfall.

[lordofduct]

Um, I think everyone here can admit it was a big role in sending SoA into the shitter, that was an amazing piece of hardware, and that it had very poor support from programmers.

I love my lil' mushroom though... Knuckles Chaotix is damn fun, and it sure as hell looks sexy on top of my Genny1 and SegaCD1.

[crazyjoedavola]

No doubt that the 32 X contributed to Sega's demise in the console business. I don't think the system was flawed, I just think that it was Sega of Japan and Sega of America not functioning as a single unit. Had the Saturn not been sprung on the market when it was, the 32 X might have had a longer lifespan, but I guess we'll never know now.

As for me, I never really got into it. I think that I only played Doom and Cosmic Carnage. I, like many people, decided to wait until the Saturn and Playstation came out and just passed on the 32 X. I'm thinking about picking one up on ebay though.

[Electroman]

Sega of America's marketing department went into the shitter BEFORE 32X.

I knew it was on its way out when I started to see those ghey candycane box backgrounds and moving away from plastic cases.

Sorry to say it, but Sega got what they asked for. But I'm still a Sega fan for life though.

And I still love my 32X and its limited quantity of choice titles.

[16bitter]

One of the semantic issues with the 32X I think -- or THE semantic issue -- is whether it helped to destroy the company or whether the company's decisions overall destroyed it. Could it have survived if Sega America and Sega Japan saw eye to on it rather than clashing over it? Could it have been the half-priced, lower powwered (but still powerful) alternative to Saturn? Could they have been successful together in the same market with the right strategy?

Or, was the idea of the 32X when considering the Saturn, Playstation and so forth just insane?

I'll say one thing: without Sega of Japan's support, this system was doomed. Back in the mid-90's I don't think a company could survive without the Japanese developers, and Sega of Japan hated the system to the degree that it turned off third parties to it as well (I'm sure they weren't too keen on an American-made product anyway).

It's like the inverse of the Saturn in the US -- both Sega of Japan and Sega of America helped to destroy each other's plans, I believe. Kalinske hated Saturn and Japan hated Kalinske (pretty simple). Therefore they hated all his ideas, and anything that sprang from SoA was looked down upon. On the other hand, from what I know, 32X came from the dislike the US side had for the Saturn and its capabalities; so in the end you basically had the same company fighting with itself as much or more as they were outside competitors. No wonder Sega lost so badly.

Now, the question becomes, what role does 32X play in that: is it a symptom or a victim of Sega's downfall?

[Mel]

If they would have worked together, they could have easily made the 32x and saturn compatible. They ran on the same processors. If they would have done so, it would have left 32x as a middle system, but at least a middle system w/ some love.

[Electroman]

Who designed the 32X, and who did the marketing research to develop its demographic?

[Mel]

Sega of America. Sega of Japan kept their mouth shut and basically competed against soa. Stupidity. Seriously, why compete against your own company?

As for a retro peice, Yay, its a fun little gadget, relatively inexpensive.

[j_factor]

32x should just have never been made.

Failing that, some sort of inter-compatibility would've helped things. Saturn could've easily had a converter to play 32x games, and 32x CD could've easily had an upgrade to play Saturn games. Though that would've made for an even more complicated system structure than Turbografx.

On another note, why didn't Saturn have a converter at least for Genesis carts? They did put the 68k processor inside the Saturn, and they had taken the same strategy with the previous generation.

[Mel]

32x should just have never been made.

Failing that, some sort of inter-compatibility would've helped things. Saturn could've easily had a converter to play 32x games, and 32x CD could've easily had an upgrade to play Saturn games. Though that would've made for an even more complicated system structure than Turbografx.

On another note, why didn't Saturn have a converter at least for Genesis carts? They did put the 68k processor inside the Saturn, and they had taken the same strategy with the previous generation.

Saturn genesis compatability woulda been great even better than the 32x idea.

[Melf]

One of the semantic issues with the 32X I think -- or THE semantic issue -- is whether it helped to destroy the company or whether the company's decisions overall destroyed it. Could it have survived if Sega America and Sega Japan saw eye to on it rather than clashing over it? Could it have been the half-priced, lower powwered (but still powerful) alternative to Saturn? Could they have been successful together in the same market with the right strategy?

Or, was the idea of the 32X when considering the Saturn, Playstation and so forth just insane?

I'll say one thing: without Sega of Japan's support, this system was doomed. Back in the mid-90's I don't think a company could survive without the Japanese developers, and Sega of Japan hated the system to the degree that it turned off third parties to it as well (I'm sure they weren't too keen on an American-made product anyway).

It's like the inverse of the Saturn in the US -- both Sega of Japan and Sega of America helped to destroy each other's plans, I believe. Kalinske hated Saturn and Japan hated Kalinske (pretty simple). Therefore they hated all his ideas, and anything that sprang from SoA was looked down upon. On the other hand, from what I know, 32X came from the dislike the US side had for the Saturn and its capabalities; so in the end you basically had the same company fighting with itself as much or more as they were outside competitors. No wonder Sega lost so badly.

Now, the question becomes, what role does 32X play in that: is it a symptom or a victim of Sega's downfall?

I believe it was a victim. SOJ was already shitting on everything the American branch did, and the 32X was no exception. Remember Naka being a dick and making them kill the NIGHTS engine for Sonic Xtreme?

There was just no love for anything SOA did. When you consider that after Naka got all prissy after Sonic 1 and left, it was SOA that gave him a job and the resources for the next few Sonic games. He then responded by killing their biggest project, killing the 32X and crippling the Saturn in the process.

Nakayama's sheer shortsightedness was the big killer though. How could he discontinue the Genesis when there was so much life left in 16-bit consoles? How do you just brush aside an installed user base of over 20 million consoles? Jeez.

[Electroman]

I'm surprised that SOA spearheaded the 32X. Did Japanese hardware designers move here to do it? I wouldn't expect American engineers would even care to do such a thing.

[16bitter]

It was American-made, both as far as location and those who worked on its chips. Japan hated it -- they weren't going to offer support -- and Sega America moved ahead on 32X because they had zero confidence in the Saturn; that's basically why 32X was created.

I don't know how accurate the story is, but I heard that SoA came up with what most would consider a superior, American-made chipset for the Saturn project -- which Japan flatly rejected. Supposedly it could have truly competed as far as 3D against the PS. Oh well.

[Mel]

It was American-made, both as far as location and those who worked on its chips. Japan hated it -- they weren't going to offer support -- and Sega America moved ahead on 32X because they had zero confidence in the Saturn; that's basically why 32X was created.

I don't know how accurate the story is, but I heard that SoA came up with what most would consider a superior, American-made chipset for the Saturn project -- which Japan flatly rejected. Supposedly it could have truly competed as far as 3D against the PS. Oh well.

Actually SoJ never told anyone about the saturn. The project was in development, but not ready for production. .SoJ chose the chipset, prepared everything, had the produced and didn't tell soA.

There were like 3 or 4 different prototypes for the next gen system. Mars(32x), Neptune (32x & genesis hybrid), Saturn, Jupiter.

[16bitter]

It was American-made, both as far as location and those who worked on its chips. Japan hated it -- they weren't going to offer support -- and Sega America moved ahead on 32X because they had zero confidence in the Saturn; that's basically why 32X was created.

I don't know how accurate the story is, but I heard that SoA came up with what most would consider a superior, American-made chipset for the Saturn project -- which Japan flatly rejected. Supposedly it could have truly competed as far as 3D against the PS. Oh well.

Actually SoJ never told anyone about the saturn. The project was in development, but not ready for production. .SoJ chose the chipset, prepared everything, had the produced and didn't tell soA.

There were like 3 or 4 different prototypes for the next gen system. Mars(32x), Neptune (32x & genesis hybrid), Saturn, Jupiter.

I don't know how aware SoA was of the Saturn's innards or at what date they became aware, but I know they tried to introduce to the Japanese wing a chipset that in retrospect was superior to what we got -- only to be told no way. I'm pretty sure that the US-side was decently up to date on what was happening in Japan, whether the Japanese side wanted them to be or not -- from both the history I've heard and pure logic, I don't think the Japanese totally kept them in the dark or even could (let's face it, being aware and thus disgusted is what led the US branch to the 32X and other projects).

Supposedly Silicon Graphics came up with a plan for Sega of America, which the Japanese branch rejected in favor of the mess they were creating.

32X was never meant as a replacement for Saturn as far as raw power. That's part of what was stupid about it, insofar as fracturing the market and consumer confidence with the retarded step-based system (Genesis to 32X to Saturn) the US side tried to introduce in 95.

From Sega Base:

There wasn't time to be picky and carefully craft an all-new, highly integrated 32-bit design using the best components available like Sony had done. The announced launch of the Saturn was less than a year away (November 1994, in fact), and Sony was due to release the PlayStation at the same time. If Sega went with the Saturn as originally designed, then they would be slaughtered by Sony as soon as both systems launched. A redesigned Saturn that could successfully compete with the PlayStation was going to have to be made from off-the-shelf parts using whatever Sega had available in order to meet deadline, and this where the concept of parallel processing enters the picture. The Away Team chose this as the most expedient shortcut towards getting a redesigned yet decently priced 32-bit console out the door in the shortest amount of time. Instead of the single NEC V60, they went with dual Hitachi SH-2s in parallel - supposedly as a favor to an old golfing buddy of Nakayama's. Instead of the single VDPs of the earlier arcade boards, they went with beefed-up dual VDPs - each of which could be programmed for dedicated tasks. If this strikes you as odd, please bear in mind that parallel processing was an old concept to Sega's engineers. Many of Sega arcade hits from the 1980s, such as AfterBurner II and OutRun, utilized twin Motorola MC68000s in their board design. The Mega CD (Sega CD) can in fact be said to be Sega's first-ever dual processor console, since its internal MC68000 worked in tandem with the MC68000 of its host MegaDrive (Genesis) console. The Saturn was to be Sega's first purpose-built dual-processor console.

This was in direct opposition to a proposal that was already on the table from Tom Kalinske and his staff from over at Sega of America. They had contacted Silicon Graphics, one of the companies behind the PlayStation's 3D graphics capabilites, and had come up with an alternative, single-chip simplistic design that they were convinced could compete with PlayStation on its own terms. To their surprise, Nakayama overruled them in favor of the Away Team's proposal. He had been unimpressed by a demonstration of the technology arranged by Kalinske, remaining convinced that Sato's dual-processor concept was actually the more flexible choice of the two. His decision left a bad taste in Kalinske's mouth, who sensed even at this early point that Saturn was going to be a doomed venture. "The Japanese are making the decisions for the U.S. market," he later grumbled, "and they do not know what they are doing."

[crazyjoedavola]

I think the real issue is not whether the 32X is a good system or not, (it was killed off too early to know what developers might have done) but lack of communication and cooperation between SOJ and SOA. With the huge success of the Genesis here in the states, one can't help but wonder why on earth SOJ wouldn't want to work WITH SOA to keep that huge market. I truly believe that the success of the PSX wasn't entirely due to it's somewhat better graphics capabilities, but more because of gamers frustrations with Sega.

It was clearly Sega's game to lose and they certainly dropped the ball. They made a valiant effort with Dreamcast, but it was too little too late.

Who knows though. Maybe someday we'll read in the gaming mags or on the web that Sega is planning a new console release. Sony can't stay on top forever right? Or is it Microsoft who is on top? I haven't been keeping track.

[16bitter]

I think Microsoft will soon be on top, frankly. They may never crack Japan, but they will crack the West -- especially with an early release, what looks to be a far better price, more software and, looking at past history, the safe bet that it's likely that Sony will not come up with a hardware that is nearly as great as they hype it to be.

And hey, every day it aappears that Microsoft gets better support from key Japanese devs.

As far as 32X, Sega -- of America or Japan -- and their overall plans, we agree. Sega destroyed themselves, it wasn't Sony.

[Mel]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

Microsoft, may or may not dominate the market that is yet to be seen. They haven't done much to piss off consumers. We'll see where this goes.

[j_factor]

There were like 3 or 4 different prototypes for the next gen system. Mars(32x), Neptune (32x & genesis hybrid), Saturn, Jupiter.

There was more than that even. There was an early prototype called the Giga Drive, and another prototype called the Titan (not to be confused with the arcade board).

[crazyjoedavola]

I honestly feel bad for Sega. Even though I grew up with Atari and Nintendo, I really felt like I "came of age" with Sege in regards to video games. The Sega Genesis was almost like a religious experience for me because it showed me what video games could be. I really hoped that Sega would continue to be at the forefront of gaming , like they were with the Genesis, but I guess it wasn't to be. I'm still very partial to Sega and it's systems and suppose I will be for a long time to come.

I remember when the SNES gained in popularity, I argued that that system was far superior to the Genesis and, at the time, I really believed it. In fact, it was my favorite 16 bit system. But for some reason I can't explain, when I decided to get back into gaming after a long absence, I immediately chose to get a Sega Genesis. Why? Who knows. I do love it though.

[16bitter]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA. There really was no contest. But there could have been -- with a better ad campaign, a smart release date, proper pricing and enough 3rd party software. Sega abandoned all of this, while the PS capitalized not only on Sega's stupidity but also on a damn strong launch.

Sega just kind of stumbled in the room drunk and ugly expecting people to run out and buy their latest for god knows what reason. Nice.

Microsoft, may or may not dominate the market that is yet to be seen. They haven't done much to piss off consumers. We'll see where this goes.

My mind is quickly changing. Check out their announcements today. Fractured market and a price point that, despite what so many argue, may be too high. What's the advantage over Sony now? Microsoft is not going to have the third party support that Sony enjoys, nor is their price point now likely to be much better -- unless Sony is insane and thinks that Trip Hawkins' dream can now become reality at $500-700. Yeah right.

Sony keeps winning because their competition is moronic. While I think the PS launch was awesome it also had a nearly open market because of Sega's constant blundering, and the PS2 launch survived on hype and lack of competition. Now it appears that for a third straight gen we'll get the same -- the competition killing themselves without Sony playing a direct hand at all on that front, other than taking advantage of such stupidity.

Microsoft is doing the inverse of what Sony did with the first PS. While Sony came in under the expected price point, Microsoft is truly coming in over what people expected. And their pricing on accessories for their console is outrageous -- you'd think they were the market leaders with this arrogance. I don't see any evidence of them trying to actively please the gaming market overall, but instead we're just supposed to lap up what they offer.

[Vicman]

Don't even get me started 16bitter! I was hoping that we'd see a grand system war, similar to the 16-bit war, where in the end it was the gamers that ended up winning. Instead we're being fed fractured SKUs lacking the components made standard in this current gen and overpriced accessories to make the higher priced model seem like a deal. ARG! I am soooo tired of console makers making the same friggen mistakes over and over and over and over again! It's the same crap every gen!

DON'T THEY EVER LEARN! :evil:

P.S. now my sig has another implication, MS is killing off the progress they made with the Xbox via their pricing/launch structure of the Xbox 360. :mad:

[Chikinware]

I have to say that software matters the most to me. Therefore I think that the 32x should have been made for Knuckles Chaotix.

[Psy]

I have to say that software matters the most to me. Therefore I think that the 32x should have been made for Knuckles Chaotix.Knuckles Chaotix could have been made into a Saturn launch title. Not like the game needed the 32x and it wasn't that long before the Saturn hit stores.

As for the 32x, I think it divided the Genesis userbase and Sega's resources/attention too much. I think they should have focused on the stock Genesis and Sega CD, I remeber at the downtown record store were I use to get games they pushed the CDx instead of the 32x due to the existing Sega CD library. I also notice the shelf space for Sega CD really grew with the releace of the CDx so it would have been possible for Sega to renew intrest in Sega CD if they didn't release the 32x.

[j_factor]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA.

I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation. The only Playstation game that wowed me in that early time was WipEout... I dunno, maybe you were only looking at Virtua Fighter 1 and Daytona, because VF2 and Panzer Dragoon and Bug! and Astal were pretty wow at the time. Saturn had lots of problems, but having low-quality games wasn't one of them.

[ary incorparated]

Al after Al sega just had some stupid competitions aggainst eachoter it just didnt went that good as everybody tought,Sega wasnt the one big happy development team its was just as usual the Amerika vs Japan and that whit sega.Sega Dicked the sega gamer with their own problems by arguing instead of developing.

[16bitter]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA.

I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation. The only Playstation game that wowed me in that early time was WipEout... I dunno, maybe you were only looking at Virtua Fighter 1 and Daytona, because VF2 and Panzer Dragoon and Bug!

VF2 was a winner, but Bug! looked like shit BEFORE the PS1 hit, and the graphics on Dragoon were mediocre.

Compare the Saturn's 95 US lineup to the Playstation's Ridge Racer, Toshinden (stunning when it debuted), WipEout, Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Jumping Flash!, Destruction Derby, Tekken, Mortal Kombat 3, Doom (a beautiful port with music and sound effects that were superior to the originals on PC), NFL Gameday, NHL Faceoff, Air Combat, WWF Wrestlemania the Arcade Game -- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

Saturn had lots of problems, but having low-quality games wasn't one of them.

I don't recall much that impressed me enough to think that the Saturn was worth $400 -- or as much as PS for that matter -- in the first year, and never did its overall domestic software impress me as much as the PS's. Too much was left in Japan (especially the 2D software which played to the system's true strengths), came out/ported too late (getting shittier looking versions of PS games from six months prior wasn't going to blow anybody away) or didn't have the visual polish needed to impress.

Playstation was generally better looking and far better covered in most any genre you could name. And strictly comparing them out of the gate, there was no question as to which was hot and why. If Sega had managed to outsell the PS I'd call that masterful PR, but the Playstation had both the software to impress and the marketing muscle to get the word out -- one did not stand head and shoulders above the other.

[j_factor]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA.

I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation. The only Playstation game that wowed me in that early time was WipEout... I dunno, maybe you were only looking at Virtua Fighter 1 and Daytona, because VF2 and Panzer Dragoon and Bug!

VF2 was a winner, but Bug! looked like shit BEFORE the PS1 hit, and the graphics on Dragoon were mediocre.

I don't think PD's graphics were mediocre at all -- at the time it was impressive.

And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

Compare the Saturn's 95 US lineup to the Playstation's Ridge Racer, Toshinden (stunning when it debuted), WipEout, Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Jumping Flash!, Destruction Derby, Tekken, Mortal Kombat 3, Doom (a beautiful port with music and sound effects that were superior to the originals on PC), NFL Gameday, NHL Faceoff, Air Combat, WWF Wrestlemania the Arcade Game -- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.Also, you're the first person I've ever heard from that was impressed by Mortal Kombat 3.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports. This should be even more apparent today -- nobody plays Ridge Racer 1 anymore, but Sega Rally still has its fans.

And sports titles? You're correct if you only count American football, but Saturn had the other sports just fine. NHL All-Star Hockey, Worldwide Soccer (what did psx have for soccer?), World Series Baseball, etc.


To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games. I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me. I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore? I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Saturn had lots of problems, but having low-quality games wasn't one of them.

I don't recall much that impressed me enough to think that the Saturn was worth $400 -- or as much as PS for that matter -- in the first year, [/quote]

It was $300 by that Christmas. I definitely agree that the $400 launch was a huge mistake, but that's little to do with what I was arguing -- which is that Saturn had the quality software that Playstation didn't. I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3. And the immediate outlook for '96 looked way better for Saturn too.

[16bitter]

Sega killed themselves.

Sony is really good at marketing, theykept the psone, an inferior system alive for 10 years, longer than any other system.

The Playstation hatred is unwarranted as far as historical record. They not only marketed better, but had far better overall software that wowed as true next-gen tech. The Saturn did none of this out of the gate, and never really did. I know. I was there.

The PS blew me away, whereas the Saturn was choking on crappy ports of Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA.

I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation. The only Playstation game that wowed me in that early time was WipEout... I dunno, maybe you were only looking at Virtua Fighter 1 and Daytona, because VF2 and Panzer Dragoon and Bug!

VF2 was a winner, but Bug! looked like shit BEFORE the PS1 hit, and the graphics on Dragoon were mediocre.

I don't think PD's graphics were mediocre at all -- at the time it was impressive.

I remember playing it at Toys 'R Us quite a few times. Cool game? Yes. Amazing looking? No.

If you think that was an impressive graphical showcase, it's rather amazing how easily you dismiss all the examples the PS had in this area.


And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

No, but that's just it: the Saturn only started to look good, or decent next to the PS, after running way behind for the rest of the year in America. And only in a handful of top tier titles at that.

Compare the Saturn's 95 US lineup to the Playstation's Ridge Racer, Toshinden (stunning when it debuted), WipEout, Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Jumping Flash!, Destruction Derby, Tekken, Mortal Kombat 3, Doom (a beautiful port with music and sound effects that were superior to the originals on PC), NFL Gameday, NHL Faceoff, Air Combat, WWF Wrestlemania the Arcade Game -- et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.

Wasn't the point. It looked and seemed to play amazing those first few months. It was an awesome tech demo. Five months later? Yeah, people start noticing it plays like shit. But that's not the issue.

Also, you're the first person I've ever heard from that was impressed by Mortal Kombat 3.

We talking about the game in general or the port? It was the big arcade game of 95 and it was exclusively on PS. I don't see how that's a bad thing for PS, nor a good thing for Saturn.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports.

I don't know who the hell you're hanging out with, but I assume there was some reason why the Saturn was getting its ass kicked from the very start.

As you should know, the American market doesn't give a crap for VF -- the system mover in Japan. And, to top it off, until the end of the year all the Saturn ports directly from Sega looked like day old garbage at best.

The Playstation? Games that were pretty damned close to arcade perfect, and hotter titles in the US arcade market at that. You have Ridge Racer sitting next to Daytona for months, what do you think the impression will be? What should it be?

Bottom line is that the Playstation made people think it was very powerful indeed, and the place for accurate arcade ports -- back then an important issue.

This should be even more apparent today -- nobody plays Ridge Racer 1 anymore, but Sega Rally still has its fans.

We're talking about the perspective in 1995, not how games acquit themselves 10 years on.

But, since you bring it up, how many people would play Daytona over RR? The early Saturn arcade ports have only gotten far worse with age -- which is quite the feat considering how fugly they were to begin with.

It's also interesting that you use late arrivals like Sega Rally against the PS's lineup. Second generation versus first generation software, and months too late to the market from Sega's side.

And sports titles? You're correct if you only count American football,

Believe it or not, football is far and away what matters most in the market. It is the market for all intents and purposes.

but Saturn had the other sports just fine.
NHL All-Star Hockey,

I'm vague, but I'm pretty sure that this was roundly panned. Faceoff on the other hand looked nice and picked up positive reviews.

Worldwide Soccer (what did psx have for soccer?),

Who cares? This is America -- five people give a crap about soccer here.

It's hilarious that you don't think it a big deal to be without the BIG American sport on Saturn, but are critical of the lack of soccer on the PS. How much more biased can you be?

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games.

No, anybody who'd see Bug! as a graphical tour de force -- or its sequel, Bug Too! as a graphically superior work to Crash Bandicoot -- is pretty deep in Sega denial on this system war.

To act as if the Playstation was lacking in quality games next to the Saturn is a pretty bad joke. Would I want to play Toshinden today? No. But I never wanted to play some of the so-called killer apps that the Saturn had languishing on store shelves for months and monnths, let alone pay for them.

I paid a buck a pop for Daytona and Virtua Fighter. Only as mere curiosity and humor some years on. I'd have been crying if I'd paid hundreds of dollars for that crap.

I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me.

What do you think a next gen system mainly is supposed to do? Look damn nice. Prove that it has the power to be worth its price tag. Sadly the Saturn took far too long to show this at all, and never did so consistently enough in this market.

If it was only about gameplay then nobody would have bought a next gen system that year -- 16 bit still had the better lineup overall.

I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore?

A more balanced question would be who plays Daytona or Virtua Fighter as opposed to the PS games you mentioned (two of the lamest, in retrospect). And, hey, who was even playing them then?

I play many more Snes and Genny games today than I do anything from Saturn or PS's first year. That doesn't change the fact that I had a hell of a great time with the Playstation back then.

I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Maybe it has something to do with showing up late for the party?

If you didn't see any quality in games like Jumping Flash!, Warhawk, Twisted Metal, WipEout, Ridge Racer and the like there isn't much I can do to change your mind at this late date. Did games generally get better? Yes, but that's always the case with great systems.

And we were talking about the launch, which means your retrospective about what's decent now and what isn't misses the entire point.

Saturn had lots of problems, but having low-quality games wasn't one of them.

I don't recall much that impressed me enough to think that the Saturn was worth $400 -- or as much as PS for that matter -- in the first year,

It was $300 by that Christmas. I definitely agree that the $400 launch was a huge mistake, but that's little to do with what I was arguing -- which is that Saturn had the quality software that Playstation didn't.

It's telling that you bought it then -- when the Saturn finally got an influx of some quality titles -- as opposed to earlier in the year when Sega truly decided their own fate. The PS was impressive out of the gate and never let up -- given the choice again I'd still buy a PS. No doubt in my mind.

The Saturn only started to turn itself around at the end of the year with a trickle of awesome titles from Sega themselves. Far too little and far too late.

I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3.

Well, you were one of the few to think this for the year. And for having so many impressive games, it's interesting that you have basically mentioned maybe five titles altogether -- what else did the Saturn have?

I was just looking through GF -- the biggest group of Sega fanboys in print at the time -- and even their coverage skews heavily towards positive PS hype. Why? Because it clearly had a better year.

Ten years on and both systems look awful graphically to the point where I don't enjoy playing many great games on them -- and this was arguably the Saturn's problem at the time.

And the immediate outlook for '96 looked way better for Saturn too.

Resident Evil alone looked better than anything the Saturn had to offer in early 96.

[David J.]

I liked the Saturn the best because it was a Sega console! I was eight years old, what do you expect
That said, I also thought the PSX launch lineup was more impressive that the Saturn's first few games.

The PSX didn't get a good Soccer game for a while. Worldwide Soccer, well, the first one is shit. I never played '97 or '98. Too bad the Saturn didn't have a good Football game outside of crappy ports of Madden.

[j_factor]

And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

No, but that's just it: the Saturn only started to look good, or decent next to the PS, after running way behind for the rest of the year in America. And only in a handful of top tier titles at that.

Those games all came out in 1995. I don't know the exact release dates of those games, but Playstation launched in September. You're talking about lagging behind for, what, a couple months?

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.

Wasn't the point. It looked and seemed to play amazing those first few months. It was an awesome tech demo. Five months later? Yeah, people start noticing it plays like shit. But that's not the issue. [/quote]

Then what is? I mean, a shitty game that looks nice doesn't really do us any good.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports.

I don't know who the hell you're hanging out with, but I assume there was some reason why the Saturn was getting its ass kicked from the very start.[/quote]

That reason certainly isn't arcade ports.

As you should know, the American market doesn't give a crap for VF -- the system mover in Japan. And, to top it off, until the end of the year all the Saturn ports directly from Sega looked like day old garbage at best.

I agree, Virtua Fighter and Daytona were crappy, rushed ports. But you're acting like "the end of the year" was an eternity when the official US launches of both consoles were in September. And I believe I specifically said in my original reply "in December '95" so I don't know why you're arguing about the couple months before then.

It's also interesting that you use late arrivals like Sega Rally against the PS's lineup. Second generation versus first generation software, and months too late to the market from Sega's side.

Late arrivals? I was talking about 1995. The whole year. I think I made this clear from the beginning. Yes, the Saturn was quite the lame duck from its Japanese launch to its US "limited prerelease" all the way until its "official launch" when games started rolling in. But after that, I was significantly more impressed by Saturn's overall lineup. May

And sports titles? You're correct if you only count American football,

Believe it or not, football is far and away what matters most in the market. It is the market for all intents and purposes.

but Saturn had the other sports just fine.
NHL All-Star Hockey,

I'm vague, but I'm pretty sure that this was roundly panned. Faceoff on the other hand looked nice and picked up positive reviews.

Worldwide Soccer (what did psx have for soccer?),

Who cares? This is America -- five people give a crap about soccer here.

It's hilarious that you don't think it a big deal to be without the BIG American sport on Saturn, but are critical of the lack of soccer on the PS. How much more biased can you be? [/quote]

You're totally misrepresenting what I said. I never made any claim regarding the market importance of individual sports. I CONCEDED a point to you, and you're mocking me for it -- isn't that a little overly confrontational, even for you?

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games.

No, anybody who'd see Bug! as a graphical tour de force -- or its sequel, Bug Too! as a graphically superior work to Crash Bandicoot -- is pretty deep in Sega denial on this system war. [/quote]

I never referred to Bug! as a graphical tour de force. I said it was "pretty wow at the time" and the wow part was that it was a new type of game. A new way of presenting a game and a new way of playing a game.

I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me.

What do you think a next gen system mainly is supposed to do? Look damn nice.[/quote]

I highly disagree. I think a next-gen system is supposed to provide new experiences. That's why I didn't care about Dreamcast at first, and that's why I don't like Xbox 360 so far. ....Saturn did it for me. Playstation did too, but for the first two years overall it didn't have as many worthwhile games.

I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore?

A more balanced question would be who plays Daytona or Virtua Fighter as opposed to the PS games you mentioned (two of the lamest, in retrospect). And, hey, who was even playing them then? [/quote]

Why are you so fixated on Daytona and VF1? I've stated time and again that I basically agree with you about those two games; you're just beating a dead horse. Saturn had other games in 1995. You're acting like the games I mentioned don't exist.

I play many more Snes and Genny games today than I do anything from Saturn or PS's first year. That doesn't change the fact that I had a hell of a great time with the Playstation back then.

Well I had a hell of a great time with Saturn back then. A friend of mine got a Playstation, and while I adored WipEout and a couple others, it didn't have the quantity of quality games that I wanted. Neither did Saturn in its VERY beginning, but it did soon after, while Playstation didn't at that time.

I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Maybe it has something to do with showing up late for the party?

If you didn't see any quality in games like Jumping Flash!, Warhawk, Twisted Metal, WipEout, Ridge Racer and the like there isn't much I can do to change your mind at this late date. Did games generally get better? Yes, but that's always the case with great systems. [/quote]

Man, how many times do I have to say WipEout and Jumping Flash were great games before you stop acting as though I think the opposite?

And we were talking about the launch, which means your retrospective about what's decent now and what isn't misses the entire point.

We weren't talking about the launch. This whole argument started when I said "I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation." December of '95. The post I was responding to didn't say "at launch" either. The discussion was of the early part of the consoles' lifespans, not strictly the launch.

I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3.

Well, you were one of the few to think this for the year. And for having so many impressive games, it's interesting that you have basically mentioned maybe five titles altogether -- what else did the Saturn have?[/quote]

Well, I did say good games, not impressive games. Impressive is hard to quantify.

So far I've mentioned:
Virtua Fighter 2
Sega Rally
Solar Eclipse
Bug!
Panzer Dragoon
Astal
Worldwide Soccer
World Series Baseball
NHL All-Star Hockey
Virtua Cop

I might also add:
Galactic Attack
Shinobi Legions
Virtual Open Tennis
Dark Legend
Mystaria
Shell Shock

[ary incorparated]

J factor is right all the way,I tought satrurn was the worser ones of the to,But i was hearing about it and i looked at the pics on the back of the games,they where amazing.then when i couldnt buy a psx i tought hey maybe that saturn would be cheap by now.I went to the Discovery gameshop in the city,damn still it was 500 f damn i couldnt effort that,i went to free record shop and saw virtua fighter 2(i already played that one omn pc)i looked even impressive and better then the pc version.i was very currious about sega consoles,i finnaly bought it and i tought it looked allot worser then psx,hey it didnt at al i was enjoying sega rally and i showed of the saturn books that came with some games everbody in school was wandering,what is that console and it deliverd discusions,why does it look like psx and why does it lookes so great,a friend of my also had all sega and he sead that the saturn was better then psx i couldnt belive him,he showed how awesome that console was when i was at his home,he showe Radiant silvergun,panzer dragoon saga i was confident that the saturn is a way good console and graphically better then psx.I bought radiant silvergun virtua cop 2 virtua fighter 2 and panzer dragoon saga,i was blewn away by its lrge and uge sprites in games and the really big levels in Panzer dragoon 2,Come on 16bitter the saturn had damn good graphics for its time,very colourfull and almost arcade,VF 2 was way better then tekken 1 and 2 graphically.panzer dragoon 2 has mirroring in the water and very uge levels,the whole atmosphere of the game was there,Oooh yeah ever played PD saga NO fmv that final fanasy uses almost everything with ingame graphics almost real water you could even see a diffrent mirror ,depending on how high you fly above the water and you can hear the wind very clear when your in the air and the water when your lowwer.Ooh yeah 16bitter i remeber the first psx games all had uge polygons games like tekken ridge racer etc they showd many uge pixxels,Compare them to VF 2 Nights in to dreams and sega rally,clockworld knight,PD2 ,they looked worser I was bothered with the pixxels flickering in some psx game,VF2 doesnt bother me it has nice and clean graphics,I didnt notice any bothering pixels in virtua co 2 and Nights was amazing.Most of the time the saturn atleast had much different games and they where very beutiful,Nights etc.BTW youre comparing some games with crash bendicoot(the dull looking fox)crash is a clear rip of sonic and mario.the games where fun but thats it later they became a milk product and looked more obvious that it was a rip.most saturn games that where released for saturn in 98 really amazed me Radiant silvergun PD saga they shipped al the blocks and polygons,i couldnt see em" that much haha PD saga doesnt have much bugs our glitches at all,you can walk aggianst a wall without the wall dissappearing,i remeber many psx had that till 2000.When psx was going on till 2004 i tought when do they stop wtih that thing already.Dreamcast and ps2,xbox etc already where there.Saturn was very block and polygonal prove and some games even felt like Dreamcast titles to me,strange but treu.

[16bitter]

And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

No, but that's just it: the Saturn only started to look good, or decent next to the PS, after running way behind for the rest of the year in America. And only in a handful of top tier titles at that.

Those games all came out in 1995. I don't know the exact release dates of those games, but Playstation launched in September. You're talking about lagging behind for, what, a couple months?

I guess that's a problem when there are only a couple months left in that same year, and Sega wasted all that time save the last month. Fall has always been the hot video game season -- not just Christmas. Sega missed out, for all intents and purposes, on decent market penetration for all but a few weeks in the year -- even though they launched in May.

What a disaster.

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.

Wasn't the point. It looked and seemed to play amazing those first few months. It was an awesome tech demo. Five months later? Yeah, people start noticing it plays like shit. But that's not the issue.

Then what is? I mean, a shitty game that looks nice doesn't really do us any good.

The point is why the Playstation won. It looked great and it felt like it was creating far more new gameplay experiences. And Toshinden was in no way any worse gameplay-wise than the majority of shit Saturn had in its lineup -- that, to top it off, generally looked as bad as it played.

And if you think the majority of people are going to buy a $400-300 system that has "great gameplay" (highly debatable as compared to the PS) with horse shit graphics...well, I don't know what to say. Next-gen systems are about graphical ability -- otherwise nobody would have bought a Genesis out of the gate.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports.

I don't know who the hell you're hanging out with, but I assume there was some reason why the Saturn was getting its ass kicked from the very start.

That reason certainly isn't arcade ports.

Really? Since when have Americans cared about the Virtua Fighter series? Is Sega Rally a hot name? Now, try Mortal Kombat 3 -- biggest arcade game of the year. Only on Playstation, so far as the next gen consoles. A perfect rendition of Tekken -- a series that has always been more popular in the States than VF. Same with RR, which only had SS Daytona for comparison point up until the final weeks of the year.

Then there's Wrestlemania, which was a decent arcade hit that summer -- on Playstation by October. Where was the Saturn version? Being prepared for summer 96 release. WOO.

As you should know, the American market doesn't give a crap for VF -- the system mover in Japan. And, to top it off, until the end of the year all the Saturn ports directly from Sega looked like day old garbage at best.

I agree, Virtua Fighter and Daytona were crappy, rushed ports.

No more rushed than Ridge Racer -- which was a stellar port. The Saturn's horrible innards did it no favors -- as the people at AM2 were all too ready to point out themselves.

But you're acting like "the end of the year" was an eternity when the official US launches of both consoles were in September.

Do you understand the market? I really don't think so with quotes like the above. Sega wastes all but a few weeks of the year with terrible looking software and you act as if this is no big deal. That's pretty funny.

And I believe I specifically said in my original reply "in December '95" so I don't know why you're arguing about the couple months before then.

Um, because the point the whole time -- from before you disagreed with me -- was that of the botched first year of the Saturn, that's why.

Sega wasted the entire year, and they were out in this market for the majority of that same year. It seems, really, that you're the one lacking perspective -- any year for the video game market is made up of far more than just Christmas, especially as this was the beginning of an older market shift.

I don't particularly care if you got Christmas money and were wowed by VF2, the fact is that the Saturn had little to recommend it against the PS's lineup. Excise VF2, SR and VC -- what have you got left that can move a system? And therein is why Sega lost when combining that formula with the reality of release dates.

It's also interesting that you use late arrivals like Sega Rally against the PS's lineup. Second generation versus first generation software, and months too late to the market from Sega's side.

Late arrivals? I was talking about 1995. The whole year.

Do you not realize that the Saturn release schedule was a massive failure for 1995? Do you not understand that software released the last few weeks of a year would technically -- inargaubly -- be considered to be late releases for that year's schedule?

Speaking of the whole year, Sega flushed it right down the toilet.

You make my point for me, really, by using December software releases chiefly to defend the Saturn's software lineup for that entire year -- which started in MAY.

I think I made this clear from the beginning. Yes, the Saturn was quite the lame duck from its Japanese launch to its US "limited prerelease" all the way until its "official launch" when games started rolling in. But after that, I was significantly more impressed by Saturn's overall lineup. May

Up until December, what did the Saturn have? And the fact that you bought the system in December speaks to one of two things -- either you didn't have the money until the Saturn had a couple of 'wow' titles (which would be serendipitous for Sega if this was so for many others, but there's the sad reality of a year wasted instead), or the system didn't grab you until then. Either one only underlines my point on the matter.

You're totally misrepresenting what I said.

How's that? You defended the Saturn as a good sports machine. I wasn't refuting you in a vacuum.

I never made any claim regarding the market importance of individual sports.

The sports market is DEFINED by who has the hot football game in this country. Don't try and play some false semantic game -- football is the market. The genre is owned by football. Having a good baseball game was not going to cut it against what was considered a fine next-gen football game in Gameday.

I CONCEDED a point to you,

Arguing that the Saturn was a fine sports machine at that time is no concession -- further, trying to pretend that football isn't aout 65%-75% of the war on that front to begin with is lacking in either honesty or knowledge of what American sports gamers are into.

How pathetically stupid was it to not have a football game ready? America's the biggest market in the world and sports are, last time I checked, the biggest genre, OWNED by football, and they mix up which version of that sport this market is into. So Sega. They got soccer but no football. Ridiculous.

and you're mocking me for it -- isn't that a little overly confrontational, even for you? (16-bitter: oh the irony in that statement alone, not even considering the source's general lack of decorum)

I never mocked you to any great degree on the issue. Calm down. I will say that I stand by me incredulous reaction to your bluster on the matter -- to act as if it wasn't that big a deal that the Saturn was missing football, and to then turn around acting like it was mark against the PS that it lacked soccer was ridiculously biased. And hilarious.

As far as confrontational and easily riled personalities, I think you need to look in the mirror -- your opening salvo was to out and out call me ignorant on the Saturn versus Playstation software lineup. And you then expect things to be genial afterwards? Maybe you should address people with respect to begin with. It does take a massive ego to expect more respect than is given.

If you can't see the irony of your complaining about aggressive statements, well, that's pretty damned funny as well.

As it stands, it's obvious you have no argument on the sports issue that will stand up, so you introduce this thread of hypocritival mock outrage. As I said, the Saturn had jack that mattered in the genre. Another huge mistake.

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games.

No, anybody who'd see Bug! as a graphical tour de force -- or its sequel, Bug Too! as a graphically superior work to Crash Bandicoot -- is pretty deep in Sega denial on this system war.

I never referred to Bug! as a graphical tour de force. I said it was "pretty wow at the time" and the wow part was that it was a new type of game.

If you can see wow in Bug! -- I was underwhelmed by it when the Saturn had the market to itself -- then it makes your bias against the far more impressive Playstation releases all the more apparent.

And we both know that you claimed Bug! Too to be a better looking game than Crash on another thread months back. Which is pretty high on the ridiculous bias scale.

A new way of presenting a game and a new way of playing a game.

You find use for Bug! as a "wow title that did something new" but can't acknowledge far and away superior and striking Playstation software like Twisted Metal or Warhawk (to name but two, which seems fair enough against one)? Wow is right.

I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me.

What do you think a next gen system mainly is supposed to do? Look damn nice.

I highly disagree.

If a system pumps out horrible looking games and has a high price point, how many people do you think will want it?

I think a next-gen system is supposed to provide new experiences. That's why I didn't care about Dreamcast at first,

You think the Saturn had a better debut than the Dreamcast. That about sums everything up, I think.

and that's why I don't like Xbox 360 so far. ....Saturn did it for me.

What new gameplay was on Saturn? There's nothing new or revolutionary about VF2, Virtua Cop or Sega Rally -- all pretty typical for their genres (VF, for example was an awesome game stuck on 2D rails with polygons, which was certainly not insular to itself at the time as a gameplay idea). Other than that, what? Your bias is showing again.

I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore?

A more balanced question would be who plays Daytona or Virtua Fighter as opposed to the PS games you mentioned (two of the lamest, in retrospect). And, hey, who was even playing them then?

Why are you so fixated on Daytona and VF1?

Because those were the big first party titles for the system for the majority of 1995 in America. They're what gave people the main impression of the system's power for the year by virtue of being there the great majority of it. Simple.

Also, SR and VF2 were second generation games competing against first generation Playstation software in the likes of RR and Toshinden -- both of which were still as technologically impressive if not moreso even considering that.

I've stated time and again that I basically agree with you about those two games; you're just beating a dead horse.

Which would be the Saturn for the year of 1995. Which you won't acknowledge, even though the main software you have to support it came out at the 11th hour -- after the Saturn had already gained a lousy rep and lost out on many console sales to the PS.

Saturn had other games in 1995.

Most of which were equally embarrassing.

You're acting like the games I mentioned don't exist.

They didn't exist for the American market until about a month was left in the year. That's the point.

Also, I'm still waiting for those games with fresh gameplay to be mentioned -- VF2, SR and Cop don't cut it in the least, it must be repeated.

Man, how many times do I have to say WipEout and Jumping Flash were great games before you stop acting as though I think the opposite?

Very simply, if that's the case then why did you previously say this:

_factor wrote:
I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Obviously you were saying that the PS's software lineup was worthless out of the gate with the above. Whether you earlier said that WipEout and JF! were good is of little consequence when you sweepingly contradict the same point immediately afterwards. Don't blame me for your own incoherence -- I'm only responding to it.

And we were talking about the launch, which means your retrospective about what's decent now and what isn't misses the entire point.

We weren't talking about the launch. This whole argument started when I said "I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation." December of '95.
The post I was responding to didn't say "at launch" either. The discussion was of the early part of the consoles' lifespans, not strictly the launch.

I meant the launch year. Bad wording on my part. Point was and is that judging these games now is unfair, which is why I consider reaction to the software on a 1995 basis -- meaning, yes, Toshinden was damn impressive. And, no matter its later apparent gameplay flaws, it felt fresher and more amazing than anything the Saturn had to offer.

Does that mean it's a good game with retrospect? No, but that was never the argument.

I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3.

Well, you were one of the few to think this for the year. And for having so many impressive games, it's interesting that you have basically mentioned maybe five titles altogether -- what else did the Saturn have?

Well, I did say good games, not impressive games. Impressive is hard to quantify.

So I take it you don't know when you're impressed? Laughable.

It's no more difficult to quantify than "good" is, nor any easier for that matter -- I somehow doubt that you make a habit of buying games you consider unimpressive any more than you do games you consider bad.

Nice try (also ridiculous), but with both you're in the realm of subjectivity -- and, of course, they can be interchangable. Though the issue of whether a game is doing something new is an issue that can be factually traced -- and the facts are against Saturn in that time period, with the PS winning out.

And again, contradictions on your part -- one minute you talk about how the Saturn had the "new gameplay" you were looking for, the next you strictly speak of "good" software (as shown with the horrendous, innovation-lacking, list of retreads you trotted out below). If you only wanted good software, then the Saturn and PS likely would have trailed behind the SNES and Genesis. If you wanted innovation you would have gone with the 3D champ of the time, the Playstation.

Bottom line is that if a system does not impress, then how will it sell? Semantically you made a really lousy counterpoint. The PS obviously and rightly impressed more than the Saturn on the basis of gameplay ideas and looks.

So far I've mentioned:
Virtua Fighter 2
Sega Rally
Solar Eclipse
Bug![
Panzer Dragoon
Astal
Worldwide Soccer
World Series Baseball
NHL All-Star Hockey
Virtua Cop

I might also add:
Galactic Attack
Shinobi Legions
Virtual Open Tennis (16-bitter: I don't even remember this game)
Dark Legend (16-bitter: so MK3, the number 1 arcade game of 1995, was an awful game nobody could care about according to you, yet you tout this lawn cigar? Good grief!)
Mystaria (ugh)
Shell Shock

LOL @ that list. Crap, especially the stuff in bold. No way would the majority of that help convince the average customer to shell out the cash Sega was asking for.

And where's the unique new gameplay in all of that? How's Astal a bold new idea? Shinobi? No. Um, Galactic Attack? No again. Lessee, NHL All-Star Hockey? No. VF2/SR/PD? Nope. I'm not seein' it.

Nothing on there was as innovative as Jumping Flash!, Twisted Metal, Toshinden (again, crap gameplay in *retrospect* but it did feel and look new at that time) and the like. I count a bunch of stale gameplay ideas in a mediocre new package as far as most of that. The very strong stands as: VF2, VC, SR and PD. Not one was knock your socks off unique, even as far as challenging genre convention (I did appreciate the rotating freedom of PD, however, which probably stands out as the biggest gameplay innovation of the games mentioned in relation to their genre). We have a rail shooter, a light gun game, a 2D-enforced fighter masking itself as 3D with polys and a racing game.

Seriously, ROFLMAO at that list. Playstation's lineup kicks the crap out of it on quality, hotness and freshness so far as gameplay experimentation.

Now, I've had about enough of this. It surely doesn't help that you do such a poor job with the quote feature -- it's bitch to clean up the mess you leave behind. I can't imagine how you're not doing it on purpose.

Go ahead and post away on the amazing gameplay ideas represented in All-Star Hockey, Astal, Mystaria and the like. Truth is that the only thing that even makes that list passable are the titles released right at the end, which has always been my point in regards to the Saturn's fall (i.e. it fully deserved it) -- and those were not "new" on the gameplay front themselves.

I couldn't play anything that could match or really approximate Twisted Metal on another system, yet games similar to and far better than the design of Astal could be had on 16-bit. I'd never seen a game like JF! before, but even as impressive as Panzer was it really was not much more than a prettier, better designed Star Fox -- nothing new. Whether it was the ugliest port known to man, Daytona, or Sega Rally in merely the last few weeks of a horrendous year for Sega, I could still find as good or possibly better on PS with Ridge Racer. I could go on. It's obvious that, by your new standard of fresh gameplay, the PS was way out in front of the Saturn.

If you want to delude yourself into thinking the Saturn was a superior piece of hardware that demonstrated these skills constantly to moronic public scorn, be my guest. Just know that you shouldn't type it out for my benefit -- as I won't be reading it. I've been given quite enough entertainment with that list of software you provided -- anybody who'd include All-Star Hockey has no business constantly berating Toshinden on the quality scale; then and now I'd much rather play the latter. Nor do you have any business rambling on about new gameplay ideas being your main focus when considering that stale, putrid list.

When discussing Saturn in this thread I was not and still am not interested in a fanboy pissing contest -- I had no real horse in 1995 that I vigorously fought for and I was 12 years old at the time -- but rather in talking truthfully about just how badly Sega screwed up. As with other threads, you're far too eager to defend and promote the Saturn as a stronger system than it was, in multiple ways. I'm frankly bored by the ludicrous statements from your end; that list, while hilarious, was probably the final straw.

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here i got one for you 16bitter,Compare bloody roar that came out in 98 with guardian heroes or oke a game from 98,uurrm ,Panzer dragoon saga,no fmv like in final fantasy,maybe a litle,at least the ingame graphics look awsome.i only like tekken GTA and driver for psx then the fun stopped for me,What youre saying is the same old loudmouthed stuff whe always here from sony fan boys.Saturn uses real technologie ehem who got the finest and sharpest 2d fighters of the two,Saturn.Who shows that you can make games that are graphically amazing and on par with games from 98(nights)Oke one thing sony had and that was a fanbase,Still couldnt figure out why the stupid rip off fox bandicoat was so popular for,he wasnt origenal at all,who infented 32 bit harware,sega.If you call uss fanboys look at yourself only bitching the saturn,FIRST play it before Judging it.sure i like psx but i liked saturn better,because its mysterial console,the games are hard to gett so Fun to hunt em.Btw saturn got rare titels in europe and japan,cant remeber any rare Europeen psx gamesBTW they will never be.16bitter youre trying to kill a fanbase of its own toppic,if youre so into sony why dont you jopin a sony site to Drag up over sony.If you want to kick the saturn in the ground it isnt fun it distrackts other members,who are into this toppic,why couldnt you just say have it youre way,everybody has a diffrent taste to end this to uge discussion.dont start fanboy pissing on the wrong toppic then ;)Since you made it.

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And what about Sega Rally, Virtua Cop, Solar Eclipse? You think those looked like shit too?

No, but that's just it: the Saturn only started to look good, or decent next to the PS, after running way behind for the rest of the year in America. And only in a handful of top tier titles at that.

Those games all came out in 1995. I don't know the exact release dates of those games, but Playstation launched in September. You're talking about lagging behind for, what, a couple months?

I agree with WipEout and Jumping Flash, but Toshinden is a crap game.

Wasn't the point. It looked and seemed to play amazing those first few months. It was an awesome tech demo. Five months later? Yeah, people start noticing it plays like shit. But that's not the issue.

Then what is? I mean, a shitty game that looks nice doesn't really do us any good.

Hot arcade ports (WWF, MK3, Tekken), sports titles (a genre Sega had a stranglehold on with the Genesis they basically conceded out of the gate; the most important sector for software in the American market), a superior launch price point and generaly higher graphical quality (much of the time stunningly so) from game to game, all came together to make the PS the far more attractive choice in 1995. Rightly.

Another first -- I've never heard anyone actually claim Playstation to have a superior lineup of arcade ports.

I don't know who the hell you're hanging out with, but I assume there was some reason why the Saturn was getting its ass kicked from the very start.[/quote]

That reason certainly isn't arcade ports.

As you should know, the American market doesn't give a crap for VF -- the system mover in Japan. And, to top it off, until the end of the year all the Saturn ports directly from Sega looked like day old garbage at best.

I agree, Virtua Fighter and Daytona were crappy, rushed ports. But you're acting like "the end of the year" was an eternity when the official US launches of both consoles were in September. And I believe I specifically said in my original reply "in December '95" so I don't know why you're arguing about the couple months before then.

It's also interesting that you use late arrivals like Sega Rally against the PS's lineup. Second generation versus first generation software, and months too late to the market from Sega's side.

Late arrivals? I was talking about 1995. The whole year. I think I made this clear from the beginning. Yes, the Saturn was quite the lame duck from its Japanese launch to its US "limited prerelease" all the way until its "official launch" when games started rolling in. But after that, I was significantly more impressed by Saturn's overall lineup. May

And sports titles? You're correct if you only count American football,

Believe it or not, football is far and away what matters most in the market. It is the market for all intents and purposes.

but Saturn had the other sports just fine.
NHL All-Star Hockey,

I'm vague, but I'm pretty sure that this was roundly panned. Faceoff on the other hand looked nice and picked up positive reviews.

Worldwide Soccer (what did psx have for soccer?),

Who cares? This is America -- five people give a crap about soccer here.

I care,and sega had it,dont act like their arent the people into that.

It's hilarious that you don't think it a big deal to be without the BIG American sport on Saturn, but are critical of the lack of soccer on the PS. How much more biased can you be? [/quote]

ohh yeah psx had soccer,way to much of the same and lame stuff in the later years,Fifa 200 fifa 2001 fifa 2002 fifa 2003 fifa 2003,that thing was hated in the local gameshop in the city,Damn al those new fifa games looking like games made in 95.

You're totally misrepresenting what I said. I never made any claim regarding the market importance of individual sports. I CONCEDED a point to you, and you're mocking me for it -- isn't that a little overly confrontational, even for you?

To say that the Saturn had a better selection of 'wow' titles requires bigger Sega blinders than I've ever had.

or a taste for quality games.

Then j factor has a damn good taste preferance to games,hes right,Nights 95 Panzer dragoon saga Radiant silvergun,those games feeling surpassed 32 bit.damn not much polygons,Bloody roar still hurts the eye,the game came out in 98 shame.tekken 1,2 dont better virtua fighter 2 in graphics 3 extra pionts for saturn ;)

No, anybody who'd see Bug! as a graphical tour de force -- or its sequel, Bug Too! as a graphically superior work to Crash Bandicoot -- is pretty deep in Sega denial on this system war. [/quote]

I never referred to Bug! as a graphical tour de force. I said it was "pretty wow at the time" and the wow part was that it was a new type of game. A new way of presenting a game and a new way of playing a game.

I'm not wow'ed by mediocre games that look nice, but maybe that's just me.

No crash rippy coat wowed by beeing origanal,far way not.Bug hd not much bloks or pixxels,no big polygons.

What do you think a next gen system mainly is supposed to do? Look damn nice.[/quote]

I highly disagree. I think a next-gen system is supposed to provide new experiences. That's why I didn't care about Dreamcast at first, and that's why I don't like Xbox 360 so far. ....Saturn did it for me. Playstation did too, but for the first two years overall it didn't have as many worthwhile games.

I still play Virtua Fighter 2, Panzer Dragoon, Solar Eclipse, and Astal from time to time... who plays Tekken 1 or Toshinden anymore?

A more balanced question would be who plays Daytona or Virtua Fighter as opposed to the PS games you mentioned (two of the lamest, in retrospect). And, hey, who was even playing them then? [/quote]

Why are you so fixated on Daytona and VF1? I've stated time and again that I basically agree with you about those two games; you're just beating a dead horse. Saturn had other games in 1995. You're acting like the games I mentioned don't exist.

Oooh yeah,which version of Doa looked better and even was released earlier,Saturn big and brighter characters.

I play many more Snes and Genny games today than I do anything from Saturn or PS's first year. That doesn't change the fact that I had a hell of a great time with the Playstation back then.

Well I had a hell of a great time with Saturn back then. A friend of mine got a Playstation, and while I adored WipEout and a couple others, it didn't have the quantity of quality games that I wanted. Neither did Saturn in its VERY beginning, but it did soon after, while Playstation didn't at that time.

I have almost 50 games for Playstation, not a single one from its first year; that is not coincidental.

Maybe it has something to do with showing up late for the party?

If you didn't see any quality in games like Jumping Flash!, Warhawk, Twisted Metal, WipEout, Ridge Racer and the like there isn't much I can do to change your mind at this late date. Did games generally get better? Yes, but that's always the case with great systems. [/quote]

Man, how many times do I have to say WipEout and Jumping Flash were great games before you stop acting as though I think the opposite?

And we were talking about the launch, which means your retrospective about what's decent now and what isn't misses the entire point.

We weren't talking about the launch. This whole argument started when I said "I was there too, and I bought a Saturn in December of '95 precisely because it was wowing me far more than Playstation." December of '95. The post I was responding to didn't say "at launch" either. The discussion was of the early part of the consoles' lifespans, not strictly the launch.

I bought a Saturn in December '95 because it had a bunch of good games by then... Playstation had around 3.

Well, you were one of the few to think this for the year. And for having so many impressive games, it's interesting that you have basically mentioned maybe five titles altogether -- what else did the Saturn have?[/quote]

Well, I did say good games, not impressive games. Impressive is hard to quantify.

So far I've mentioned:
Virtua Fighter 2
Sega Rally
Solar Eclipse
Bug!
Panzer Dragoon
Astal
Worldwide Soccer
World Series Baseball
NHL All-Star Hockey
Virtua Cop

I might also add:
Galactic Attack
Shinobi Legions
Virtual Open Tennis
Dark Legend
Mystaria
Shell Shock[/quote]

and lot titles to add,ooh yeah crash vs sonic r sonic R does win in bright graphics. ;)

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oke I liked the saturn better because it pushed the graphics more(in my uppinion) Radiant silvergun,Panzer dragoon 2 Panzer dragoon saga ,Sonic r,I also saw pictures from shenmue for saturn aldo it wasnt released still looked impressive al the wey,maybe strange but some games on saturn i didnt notice any wrong textures,Polygons or glitches,they where playing fine and i wasnt looking at Squares that you can see,i didnt recognize them while i was playing pd saga,The game doesn bother me with that at al,Psx did sometimes,When i saw street fighter ex and bloody roar that came out late in 97,98 they looked very terrible for such late releases.I also dont like Capcom vs snk on the psx,that game wasnt ment to be made on that console.