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MaxWar
06-10-2014, 10:43 PM
I recently bought the Super Retro Trio and took it apart, voiding my warranty for you guy's enjoyment! ( And mine too of course )

Following are some pictures of the insides. I tried making them as good as my limited equipment and skills will allow.
I also filmed myself taking it apart while rambling about, If you ever feel like watching my noob attempts at youtube and hear my non-native english :p

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tdPAW2GlO2k&feature=youtu.be

There are some retro trio that will have a problem with the NES sound in some games. Apparently some other SR3 do not have this problem. This is still a little mysterious but it is believed that this is caused by there being two different Variants of the NOAC being used for those consoles. My personal SR3 does have this glitch. Would be interesting if there are observable differences in the PCB of a console without the audio problem.


PLEASE CLICK PICTURES TO HAVE FULL SIZE VIEWS.

Whole PCB, Top view.
http://i.imgur.com/8B1lYQ0l.jpg (http://imgur.com/8B1lYQ0.jpg)

Bottom view
http://i.imgur.com/w5x7aitl.jpg (http://imgur.com/w5x7ait.jpg)

NES Board.
http://i.imgur.com/6rvLpval.jpg (http://imgur.com/6rvLpva.jpg)

NES Board Underside
http://i.imgur.com/JLV6Tb0l.jpg (http://imgur.com/JLV6Tb0.jpg)

SNES Board
http://i.imgur.com/oGezUGul.jpg (http://imgur.com/oGezUGu.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/wqhG0JPl.jpg (http://imgur.com/wqhG0JP.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/23zSBH5l.jpg (http://imgur.com/23zSBH5.jpg)

SNES Board Underside
http://i.imgur.com/dVTSfkhl.jpg (http://imgur.com/dVTSfkh.jpg)

Genesis Board
http://i.imgur.com/bOt6bJhl.jpg (http://imgur.com/bOt6bJh.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/Bcc6WJul.jpg (http://imgur.com/Bcc6WJu.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/yg0Phbnl.jpg (http://imgur.com/yg0Phbn.jpg)
http://i.imgur.com/12HDYd9l.jpg (http://imgur.com/12HDYd9.jpg)

Genesis Board Underside

http://i.imgur.com/kRWaXoul.jpg (http://imgur.com/kRWaXou.jpg)

sandplasma
06-11-2014, 02:58 AM
Is this very different than the Retron 3?

Ace
06-11-2014, 10:11 PM
This is very similar to the latest RetroN3 hardware revision (we're at Version 4 now), but the Super Retro Trio still has better analog circuitry than the RetroN3, so it's a better choice (unless you end up with one that has an NOAC with a bad APU in it).

The KM68U1000 RAM chips on the Super NES board, though, are of critical concern. These chips are running out of their absolute maximum specs with 5V VCC and 5V I/O, a perfect mix to cause premature failure of this RAM.

MaxWar
06-11-2014, 10:14 PM
The KM68U1000 RAM chips on the Super NES board, though, are of critical concern. These chips are running out of their absolute maximum specs with 5V VCC and 5V I/O, a perfect mix to cause premature failure of this RAM.

You'd think they have stress tested the things to make sure they can handle it in the long term but you never know with those clone hardwares...

evildragon
06-12-2014, 01:05 AM
Cheap Chinese stuff stress tested?

They give us cell phone chargers that electrocute us and catch fire. They want us dead, and our money back.

MaxWar
06-12-2014, 01:34 AM
I have done all kinds of things on the sega board and could not get the damn S-video jailbars out.
This is seriously annoying.
Even if I completely disconnect Chroma, they are still there but in black and white.
I will try adding electrolytic caps as termination for chroma and luma tomorrow.

Ace, do you know if the TCT-6801 GOAC outputs RGB somehow? I bet it doesnt...
I wish I could probe the GOAC legs with my scope, but the damn legs are so close I would definitely short legs together with the probe.
I can barely insert a sheet of paper between the legs.
I have an idea where a very thin but rigid piece of material could be coated with a conductive paint on only one side and connected to the probe. Inserting this between two pins would only contact one and isolate the other. Problem is they are so close here that anything I could come up with would likely be too thick or too fragile.

Ace
06-12-2014, 11:57 AM
To my knowledge, the best the TCT-6801 can do is S-Video. Of the GOACs I've come across, I know of only the SM801-A1 that is GUARANTEED to output RGB, and I'm going to get myself a few of these chips so I can design my own Geniclone. It's possible the TCT6035 and TecToy-580G also output RGB, but I can't say for sure.

AlmostOriginal
06-12-2014, 05:24 PM
This is very similar to the latest RetroN3 hardware revision (we're at Version 4 now), but the Super Retro Trio still has better analog circuitry than the RetroN3, so it's a better choice (unless you end up with one that has an NOAC with a bad APU in it).

The KM68U1000 RAM chips on the Super NES board, though, are of critical concern. These chips are running out of their absolute maximum specs with 5V VCC and 5V I/O, a perfect mix to cause premature failure of this RAM.

Is there a PCB picture of the version 4?

Ace
06-12-2014, 07:01 PM
No, but I can get you some. It's actually got green-colored boards now instead of the blue boards of the previous revisions.

However, it has come to my attention that there exists a RetroN3 Version 2.5 with the NES board of the RetroN3 Version 2 and a green-colored version of the RetroN3 Version 3's Super NES/Genesis board. The overall performance is the same as the RetroN3 Version 2, though.

AlmostOriginal
06-13-2014, 06:01 AM
If you can find the time to do that it would be awesome. Thanks.

sean
06-20-2014, 11:26 AM
I got a trio with a bad noac and the second unit no problems audio wise for castlevania no video with a real cart.
I can even get rad race 2 to boot fine but, glitches in game. The board is the same as i opened mine just to check and no difference.
I will mod mine to fix the easy issues. But, could you add a super cic for the snes to make it region free.

Kouen Hasuki
06-20-2014, 12:46 PM
The KM68U1000 RAM chips on the Super NES board, though, are of critical concern. These chips are running out of their absolute maximum specs with 5V VCC and 5V I/O, a perfect mix to cause premature failure of this RAM.

Would it be possible to add some sort of heat sinks to it to help cool the chip? and / or a very silent fan pushing some air through the case?

Ace
06-20-2014, 01:54 PM
I got a trio with a bad noac and the second unit no problems audio wise for castlevania no video with a real cart.
I can even get rad race 2 to boot fine but, glitches in game. The board is the same as i opened mine just to check and no difference.

The NOAC is missing CIRAM /CE and /A13 on the cartridge slot. You can't restore CIRAM /CE as the signal never leaves the NOAC, but you can generate /A13 with a 74HC04. Doing so will allow Castlevania III to work.

If I may ask, are the paint jobs any different between the two Super Retro Trios you have?


I will mod mine to fix the easy issues. But, could you add a super cic for the snes to make it region free.

It's already done for you. There's a PIC12F629 already on the Super NES board just behind the cartridge slot.


Would it be possible to add some sort of heat sinks to it to help cool the chip? and / or a very silent fan pushing some air through the case?

While that will extend the life of the RAM, it still doesn't hide the fact the RAM is running out of spec. In fact, at 5V, the KM68U1000s are being run beyond their absolute maximum ratings, which is 4.6V maximum. Samsung themselves warns that running the RAM past 4.6V may cause irreversible damage to the chips. If you can find TSOP versions of the plain KM681000s, those are 5V chips and should be used in place of the KM68U1000s.

Jorge Nuno
06-20-2014, 04:31 PM
Do you know for sure that the memory is actually running at 5V? The interface could actually be 3.3V... No need to spread statements without confirmation.

Just noticed the mitsubishi rams are 3.3V too. Maybe the system is full 3.3V

KnightWarrior
06-20-2014, 04:43 PM
I will stuck with my Retro Duo for now

When Retro-Bit ever does fix the Audio Problem on all SRT I'll get one

Kouen Hasuki
06-20-2014, 07:37 PM
While that will extend the life of the RAM, it still doesn't hide the fact the RAM is running out of spec. In fact, at 5V, the KM68U1000s are being run beyond their absolute maximum ratings, which is 4.6V maximum. Samsung themselves warns that running the RAM past 4.6V may cause irreversible damage to the chips. If you can find TSOP versions of the plain KM681000s, those are 5V chips and should be used in place of the KM68U1000s.

Could be worth checking the ram itself see if it is being run that high, if it is it might be possible to mod it to undervolt the ram to 4.6v?

sean
06-20-2014, 08:08 PM
I have tested pal games on my trio and some don't get past the title screen.
I used the smurf game and a few other pal carts. Also, the trio I have is the blue/white white unit.
the first, blue/white had and the same glitched audio that even affected Mario 3.
Also, I just noticed on the snes side their is no Samsung ram but, a SEC Korea 940 what has rph00581 number code on it.
Even, on the genesis side the video does not freak out when I play mega man the willy wars on it.

Ace
06-20-2014, 08:14 PM
Do you know for sure that the memory is actually running at 5V? The interface could actually be 3.3V... No need to spread statements without confirmation.

Just noticed the mitsubishi rams are 3.3V too. Maybe the system is full 3.3V

The Mitsubishi RAM is not 3.3V. They're 5V chips, and I checked the datasheet to make sure.

And yes, the RAM does run on 5V. There is no regulation anywhere on the Super NES board and the RAM receives 5V, confirmed with a multimeter test.

Jorge, you should know me by now, I NEVER put things out like this unless I've personally tested it, and if something is purely theoretical, I will outright mention it.

EDIT:


I have tested pal games on my trio and some don't get past the title screen.

Is it me or do people not understand that these hardware clones are NOT PAL clones? They are made to output NTSC video and run NTSC games. If you want PAL compatibility as well, you have to mod your console.


Also, I just noticed on the snes side their is no Samsung ram but, a SEC Korea 940 what has rph00581 number code on it.

Do you have pictures of the RAM in question? I'll go look up their datasheets.


Even, on the genesis side the video does not freak out when I play mega man the willy wars on it.

There are no capacitors on the video outputs unlike the RetroGen Adapter, which uses a capacitor that's got too little capacitance and causes varying degrees of video sync problems depending on the TV used.

Jorge Nuno
06-20-2014, 09:25 PM
Alright alright, if you actually verified it then good.
.. But this datasheet still says the other ram is 3.3V as well...:

http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/datasheet/MitsubishiElectricCorporation/mXqwsvu.pdf

EDIT: wrong link before

Ace
06-20-2014, 09:29 PM
...what in hell?

Well screw you, Mitsubishi. I was looking at the datasheet for the 5V version of that RAM without even knowing it. I'm going to check the VCC on those chips now.

EDIT: It's a direct 5V just like the Samsung RAM. Man, these clones are going to have one hell of a short lifespan due to running these RAM chips out of their absolute maximum ratings.

Thanks for showing me the correct datasheet, Jorge.

sean
06-20-2014, 09:48 PM
Here is the picture of the snes side ram chip
http://i741.photobucket.com/albums/xx53/sean3614/retro%20trio/20140620_2033211_zps2d0a47fc.jpg (http://s741.photobucket.com/user/sean3614/media/retro%20trio/20140620_2033211_zps2d0a47fc.jpg.html)

How, would I make the unit work with pal games ?
It's the year 2014 and they could have wired the region to the switch they have for the genesis region select.

I like the trio more than I thought I would but, the only super thing about it is the audio does not suck compared to other clones.

Jorge Nuno
06-20-2014, 09:51 PM
I'd say the easiest way to "solve" this is to reduce supply voltage to 4~4.5V, while keeping the analog section at 5.
A heatsink won't do anything here, these ICs aren't overheating

It's still not guaranteed to not fail prematurely, it would require to reduce the voltage further, but then there are other problems. Definite solution is obviously getting 5V RAMs

MaxWar
06-20-2014, 10:41 PM
I checked what ram chips I have in mine and they are the same Samsung 3.3v chips Ace described. That is pretty silly of them to design the machine with an inappropriate chip.

sean
06-20-2014, 11:00 PM
I checked what ram chips I have in mine and they are the same Samsung 3.3v chips Ace described. That is pretty silly of them to design the machine with an inappropriate chip.
what color paint your system maybe mine is the fix for that issue.

MaxWar
06-20-2014, 11:04 PM
what color paint your system maybe mine is the fix for that issue.

Mine is the black and gray, with bad nes APU :(

Pretty sad with my unit so far.

-NES has bad APU
-SNES has out of spec memory
-Genesis has horrible S-video jailbars and noisy audio.

SEGA.GENESIS1989
06-20-2014, 11:31 PM
Mine is the black and gray, with bad nes APU :(

Pretty sad with my unit so far.

-NES has bad APU
-SNES has out of spec memory
-Genesis has horrible S-video jailbars and noisy audio.

I had a feeling that it was too good to be true. I've been seeing alot of people proclaim that the system is quite good. But something told me that once someone on the forums got a hold of the system, we would discover the truth regarding the system's build quality. Even though I have no interest in the system, the one thing that is appealing about the Super Retro Trio is the ability to add scan lines. That is a pretty neat feature if you only have an HDTV.

Anyways, I'm enjoying the fact that you are poking and proding the innards of this Frankenstein to get at the truth! Let the dissection continue! :p

sean
06-20-2014, 11:32 PM
I was able to find a datasheet for the KM68U1000CLG-8L at http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/409/KM68U1000CLG-8L.php
And it seems that they run at 4 to 6v just fine.

Also, The MITSUBISHI chips are M5M5256DVP-85VXL on my unit http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/1187/MITSUBISHI/M5M5256DVP-85VXL.html
and they run at 3 to 4.6 V and 4.6v being the max.

I think they have a revised model of the trio like what i have or the trio is a gamble with what chips your going to get.

Bibin
06-20-2014, 11:36 PM
Running 3.3V devices at 5V will kill them over time from over-voltage. However, from talking to TmEE and some other research it appears that using 3.3V devices, with a proper 3.3V power supply, they will draw excess current from the 5V devices, shortening their lifespans, and those are often much less replaceable (custom chips, ROMs). It might be worth checking current going through the lines and seeing which is really worse for which side.

MaxWar
06-21-2014, 12:03 AM
I was able to find a datasheet for the KM68U1000CLG-8L at http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/409/KM68U1000CLG-8L.php
And it seems that they run at 4 to 6v just fine.

Where do you see that?
I cannot find such information on this datasheet.

sean
06-21-2014, 12:07 AM
Where do you see that?
I cannot find such information on this datasheet.

KM68V1000C, KM68U1000C Family CMOS SRAM
Revision 2.0
November 1997
1
Document Title
128K x8 bit Low Power and Low Voltage CMOS Static RAM
Revision History
Remark
Preliminary
Final
Final
History
Initial draft
Finalize
- Increased ISB, IDR
Commercial part = 10mA
Industrial part = 20mA
Revise
- Change speed bin
KM68V1000C Family: 70/85ns 70/100ns
KM68U1000C Family: 70/100ns 85/100ns
- Improved operating current: 40mA 35mA
- Improved power dissipation
PD: 0.7W 1.0W
- Improved standby current
Extended/Industrial: 20 10mA
- VIL: 0.4V 0.6V

sean
06-21-2014, 12:17 AM
I might be wrong but, since the sheet said VIL 4V to 6V that was doing with the voltage it runs at

Jorge Nuno
06-21-2014, 12:59 AM
there's no 4V or 6V on that quote. The samsung and the mitsubishi chips ARE 3.3V

MaxWar
06-21-2014, 01:16 AM
I see VIL ( Input low voltage) 0.4 to 0.6v, looks like you missed one decimal :p

Anyway, I interrupt this program to inform you that I just made great progress in eliminating the S-video Jailbars on the genesis side of that thing. I studied and probed the circuit board some more and realized why I failed to control the jailbars earlier.

Composite is actually mixed entirely from Chroma and luma out of discrete parts right on the board. It is not output by the ASIC. The asic only outputs Y and C.
So I removed one resistor to prevent chroma from being sent to the Composite mixing circuit.
BAM! 80% s-video Jailbar reduction. Of course your composite is now Black and white but your S-video is much improved.

To get this result you need to remove R7. ( Edit: Btw, this is a 1k resistor, for the records. )
http://i.imgur.com/SaDyIGZ.png

sean
06-21-2014, 01:34 AM
I feel dumb but, to my defense I am tired to day.
I don't know if this would work but maybe you could lift the Voltage input legs and add a 5v to 3.3v step down converter like this http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-5V-to-3-3V-DC-DC-Step-Down-Power-Supply-Buck-Module-AMS1117-LDO-800MA-/281058278731?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item417060fd4b

Jorge Nuno
06-21-2014, 08:17 AM
No. The system wont run properly at 3.3V. And the rams can't be put on 3.3 while the rest is kept at 5. I said this earlier: definite solution is to get 5V RAMs, alternate shitty solution is to stepdown voltage to 4.something. 3.3 is just too low

sean
06-21-2014, 08:59 AM
How, about replaceing the sony cx for a nintendo s-rgb the sony has ok composite video but, the s-rgb chip is way better.

MaxWar
06-21-2014, 10:20 AM
How, about replaceing the sony cx for a nintendo s-rgb the sony has ok composite video but, the s-rgb chip is way better.
But the CX has nice S-Video so I don't really care.

Ace
06-21-2014, 11:50 AM
How, would I make the unit work with pal games ?

That requires moving some solder around on some jumper points and in some cases, like with the NES board, a complete change of the master crystal.


It's the year 2014 and they could have wired the region to the switch they have for the genesis region select.

Umm... that 4-position switch on the front of the console actually IS for changing the region of the Genesis side of the Super Retro Trio. BUT, the Super Retro Trio has a fault that even the older RetroGen Adapter has: in any of the PAL settings, be it PE (PAL Europe) or PA (PAL Asia), the TCT-6801 still runs in NTSC! While this works fine with some PAL games, sometimes, you might end up with a disastrous mess like what I got on the RetroGen Adapter here with Sonic the Hedgehog running in PAL (and if you're wondering, yes, I was using an actual PAL Sonic the Hedgehog cartridge for this):

-4BeuEXExE0

I can only imagine how messy PAL-optimized games will be on both the RetroGen Adapter and Super Retro Trio in the PAL settings.


I was able to find a datasheet for the KM68U1000CLG-8L at http://www.digchip.com/datasheets/parts/datasheet/409/KM68U1000CLG-8L.php
And it seems that they run at 4 to 6v just fine.

NOWHERE in that datasheet do I see any mention of the RAM running at 6V. In fact, let me quote the recommended voltage ranges for the KM68U1000C and KM68V1000C in that datasheet:


Power Supply Voltage:
KM68V1000C family: 3.0~3.6V
KM68U1000C family: 2.7~3.3V

The KM68U1000C is supposed to run between 2.7V and 3.3V, and the absolute maximum ratings are here:

9120

The chip should never be run over 4.6V, and even then, Samsung notes running the chips at that voltage could affect their reliability.


Composite is actually mixed entirely from Chroma and luma out of discrete parts right on the board. It is not output by the ASIC. The asic only outputs Y and C.
So I removed one resistor to prevent chroma from being sent to the Composite mixing circuit.
BAM! 80% s-video Jailbar reduction. Of course your composite is now Black and white but your S-video is much improved.

To get this result you need to remove R7. ( Edit: Btw, this is a 1k resistor, for the records. )
http://i.imgur.com/SaDyIGZ.png

Well this is new. I always though the TCT-6801 output both Composite and S-Video from the GOAC.

bustedstr8
06-22-2014, 03:11 PM
No. The system wont run properly at 3.3V. And the rams can't be put on 3.3 while the rest is kept at 5. I said this earlier: definite solution is to get 5V RAMs, alternate shitty solution is to stepdown voltage to 4.something. 3.3 is just too low

Not necessarily....we won't know for sure if we don't try. LV memory can work in a 5V system, some Snes repros are built with LV Flash and a LM7833 and work just fine.

Another reason I think these Rams have a good shot of working on 3V is that there are two unused IC spots by each pair of rams . If we look at U10 it seems like these boards where made to accept a SOT-23 3V regulator to power the rams. Someone with a unit can probably figure out what resistors/caps need to be moved to get the rams running on 3V with the added regulator. I can't see U9 well, but my guess is the unused output pad goes to Vcc and CS2 on the other two rams.

This looks like typical shitty Chinese quality control, they let the fabricators use LV rams and could of cared less to have the boards properly reworked :(

I wonder if they actually shipped any boards with the proper LV ram power circuits?


http://i.imgur.com/wqhG0JP.jpg

Jorge Nuno
06-22-2014, 09:00 PM
Not necessarily....we won't know for sure if we don't try. LV memory can work in a 5V system, some Snes repros are built with LV Flash and a LM7833 and work just fine.....

Yes LV memories CAN work. BUT, those chips will burn from IO overdriving, unless they are specifically "5V tolerant", or otherwise protected from that with buffers or series resistors + clamping diodes.

MaxWar
06-22-2014, 09:10 PM
At first glance it does not look like there are many resistors on the IO lines of those chips.

I am curious as to how long those things will actually last. I think I will play some snes on my retro trio :twisted:

Ace
06-22-2014, 09:37 PM
I see no such 3.3V regulator on the Super Retro Trio I have here. Personally, I don't think any of them are running the RAM at its recommended specs.

Also, while playing around with the audio circuit RetroGen Adapter, since its audio setup matches that of the Super Retro Trio's Genesis side and both clones share the same TCT-6801 GOAC, I discovered the TCT-6801 has a Stereo headphone amp built-in! Have a look at what I've done with it on my RetroGen Adapter in the Mega Amp thread: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?26568-Introducing-the-Mega-Amp-The-universal-Genesis-audio-circuit&p=669178&posted=1#post669178

As the Super Retro Trio has the same audio circuit as the RetroGen Adapter, with the SMD versions of the resistors and capacitors shown in that post, you can turn the existing Super Retro Trio audio circuit into a Mega Mixer.

bustedstr8
06-22-2014, 09:56 PM
Ya...I thought about that too. They rate the IO on the ram for Vcc+0.5, so about 3.8V. We won't know for sure what VOH is from the other chips until someone sticks a scope on them, but it might be within spec of the ram...or pretty close.

Swapping to 5V rams is clearly the best option, but it's a lot more expensive and changing TSOP40 chips is probably out of skill range for most collectors.

For $3 or so I think it's worth trying the LV regulators. Worst case they still burn up from overdriven IOs and need to be replaced like the chips being run on full 5V.
Best case is the chips last for years from running close to/in spec, and installing a SOT-23 is probably something anyone who can change a cap could do.

Ace
06-22-2014, 10:11 PM
I could probe the pins with my oscilloscope, though right now, I need to deal with a really crappy probe. It should do the trick, though.

Jorge Nuno
06-22-2014, 10:46 PM
VOH on a CMOS chip like everything today is 99% VCC or pretty damn close on an unloaded condition.

In case of an 5V ASIC IO connected to a 3.3V powered RAM what will happen is that the ASIC VOH will drop to 4V-ish, because there's an ESD diode inside the ram that will drain the IO line to the RAM's lesser VCC (3.3V + 0.6/0.7V diode forward voltage drop). This diode will be under stress when the IO is high, and when it blows, the ram IO will survive, but not much longer as there's nothing to drain the excess IO voltage and that will breakdown the oxides on the input. A series resistor in here protects the diode by limiting it's current quite a bit, letting the ESD diode survive (and the IO thereafter)

MaxWar
06-26-2014, 01:56 AM
The RetroGen Adapter is VERY quiet. There's very little VDP noise in the audio output, both on the stock mixer and the Mega Mixer, so little, in fact, you can hardly hear it. I'm not too sure what causes the exaggerated VDP noise on the Super Retro Trio and even the RetroN3, but I'm starting to think it may be attributed to some problem with the 5V rail to the cartridge slot. The RetroN3 and RetroGen Adapter attempt to limit the current to the cartridge slot by putting a 10ohm series resistor, which not only causes major VDP noise, but also causes a heavy voltage drop with both Virtua Racing (after faking !LO_MEM by bridging that pin with address line A23) and the Mega EverDrive. The Super Retro Trio, on the other hand, simply wires 5V directly to the cartridge slot, which might also contribute to heavy VDP noise. My RetroGen Adapter has a 1N4005 diode between the 5V rail and the cartridge slot, which drops the voltage to 4.1V for cartridges. It reduces VDP noise and is at a high enough voltage to prevent Virtua Racing or the Mega EverDrive from causing problems.

Now, I've run out of 1N4005s, so I can't see if that fixes anything on the Super Retro Trio's Genesis side. If you have some on hand, I can take a look at the motherboard for you and point out where to solder the diode.

Ace, I reply here to not drive the mega amp thread off topic.

I tried following that lead and removed the 5v pins from my SR3 cart slot. Yeah, I did just that because it was easier and more easily reversed than cutting traces.
http://i.imgur.com/gCql3zDh.jpg

From there I used a Grind Stormer bootleg genesis cart and attached a Wire to its 5V. This allowed me to do some tests by putting stuff in series with the 5v goind to cart.
http://i.imgur.com/6iJ7xeKh.jpg

I tried with Diodes in series ,I had a 1N4004, but the console refused to work with that. I would get 3.6V on the cart.

I then tried with Inductor coils. Still did not work, but when I put a big enough one it worked!
And lo and behold, it actually reduced the VDP noise level. It is still there but it sure removed some edge off it. I would say it went from seriously annoying to tolerable.

I wanted to do more testing with different diodes but at that point my SR3 completely stopped working. I eventually discovered that the connections on the Gray ribbon cables were broken.

I guess that was an inevitable consequence of manhandling the console pcb for too long, damn cheap design can`t take a beating. Until I replace all those wires with proper replacement and a Drakon load of hot glue to keep them still I cannot do more experiments.

But so far so good. Progress has been made.

AlmostOriginal
06-26-2014, 02:39 AM
Until I replace all those wires with proper replacement and a Drakon load of hot glue to keep them still I cannot do more experiments.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-kNFgTHe60yM/TzPeXZorIeI/AAAAAAAAEKY/AIcum13PIj4/s1600/hotglue1.jpg

:mrgreen:

sean
06-26-2014, 09:57 PM
I removed r83 and now I don't get any video and the solder pad under the 3 is burned off.
So, were does that point go.
thanks,
Sean

MaxWar
06-26-2014, 10:38 PM
I removed r83 and now I don't get any video and the solder pad under the 3 is burned off.
So, were does that point go.
thanks,
Sean

Uh?
You removed R83 on the genesis part? Why did you do that?
Also, what do you mean by Under the 3. The ''Northern pad'' of R83?

sean
06-27-2014, 07:51 AM
9129
I removed R83 on the NES Side.
It's Suppose to make the video better on the NES and now no video.

9130
I also was going to do the compatibility fix for MMC4/5

MaxWar
06-27-2014, 10:17 AM
9129
I removed R83 on the NES Side.
It's Suppose to make the video better on the NES and now no video.



The left side of R83 that you removed connects directly to the composite output. The right side connects to two vias that go under the board.
Where did you get the instruction to remove this resistor. Link please?

Also, a trick to remove surface mount resistors without damage is use Flux and wick. Just stamp the wick flat on the component and melt the two sides at the same time, then it sticks to the wick. It is super easy.

Edit: I looked some more into the board and looks like r83 connects only to video output on the left. So no wonder you have no video.
You probably needed to bridge it, not remove it. In which case removing it is utterly unecessary, you just need to put engough solder on top of it to bridge it.

Now that you have broken the right pad, you should scrape the coating around the pad. I think it connects to two traces. You should connect those spots to the other pad with thin wire. Alternatively you can inspect the board and find where the traces connect and route longer wires.

sean
06-27-2014, 10:32 AM
The left side of R83 that you removed connects directly to the composite output. The right side connects to two vias that go under the board.
Where did you get the instruction to remove this resistor. Link please?

Also, a trick to remove surface mount resistors without damage is use Flux and wick. Just stamp the wick flat on the component and melt the two sides at the same time, then it sticks to the wick. It is super easy.

Edit: I looked some more into the board and looks like r83 connects only to video output on the left. So now wonder you have no video.
You probably needed to bridge it, not remove it. In which case removing it is utterly unecessary, you just need to put engough solder on top of it to bridge it.

Now that you have broken the right pad, you should scrap the coating around the pad. I think it connects to two traces. You should connect those spots to the other pad with thin wire. Alternatively you can inspect the board and find where the traces connect and route longer wires.

here is the link its from a youtube video from Satoshi Matrix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qMbtjUBeO8

MaxWar
06-27-2014, 10:40 AM
here is the link its from a youtube video from Satoshi Matrix https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8qMbtjUBeO8

When does he say to remove the resistor?

AlmostOriginal
06-27-2014, 12:35 PM
6:40 - Remove it and bridge the connection with solder. :)

MaxWar
06-27-2014, 12:44 PM
Then no need to remove r83, just bridge over the resistor. It has the advantage of being both easier to install and reversible.

MaxWar
06-28-2014, 02:40 AM
w00t!!! The Genesis VDP noise Is a Fixed!! Thanks and props to Ace for the Idea of the Diode, it totally works.

I managed to fix my dead SR3 with some spare wire and could get back to testing.
I then scavenged a 1N4005 and putting it in series with the Cart 5v did the trick.
Not sure why it did not work with the other diode the other day. Either the diode was bad, not suitable or my alligator clip was set wrong *facepalm*

This is much better than using a coil. Coil removed maybe 45% of the noise but with the diode it is more like 95%.

In the meantime I also lost a SMD resistor for the chroma output. *facepalm*
Next installment I will try to figure out a proper way to insert the Diode into the PCB.

In the meantime here are some pics of my Ghetto Trio.
http://i.imgur.com/Q6ukHOZh.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/FtawqZrh.jpg

Ace
06-28-2014, 11:47 AM
Wow, what a setup. XD

Nice work.

Also, Sean, I have Satoshi's Super Retro Trio with me and I must say that bridging the resistor isn't really the best thing to do. On my TVs, with the resistor removed, the video from the NES side was overly bright. If anything, putting back a 75ohm resistor where R83 is made the video look correct on my TVs. Perhaps some middle-ground needs to be found between no resistance and 75 ohms of resistance.

bustedstr8
06-28-2014, 02:01 PM
When trying to find the right level for an analog signal like that, your best bet is a small trimmer. Give that pcb a small shot of Drakon love and remote mount a 100 ohm trimmer in a good spot.

MaxWar
06-28-2014, 02:30 PM
I was wondering what this whole "Nes picture too dark issue" was all about as i did not feel anything was wrong on my side here.

So I just measured R83 on my SR3 on it is indeed 75 Ohm already and the picture looks just fine. A little research found me a post by Satoshi where he claims it is 750 on his console.

Sounds to me like someone at the Retro Trio factory made a typo when ordering parts -_-
Might be the same person who ordered 3.3v ram for the SNES board instead of 5v ram -_-

Following that logic, how many more random flaws might we find on these consoles?

Bibin
06-28-2014, 03:25 PM
VOH on a CMOS chip like everything today is 99% VCC or pretty damn close on an unloaded condition.

In case of an 5V ASIC IO connected to a 3.3V powered RAM what will happen is that the ASIC VOH will drop to 4V-ish, because there's an ESD diode inside the ram that will drain the IO line to the RAM's lesser VCC (3.3V + 0.6/0.7V diode forward voltage drop). This diode will be under stress when the IO is high, and when it blows, the ram IO will survive, but not much longer as there's nothing to drain the excess IO voltage and that will breakdown the oxides on the input. A series resistor in here protects the diode by limiting it's current quite a bit, letting the ESD diode survive (and the IO thereafter)

This is what I was alluding to earlier, thank you for the clear explanation. This is why I am concerned about so many 3.3V based bootleg cartridges and systems and all of that which will eventually damage the irreplaceable ASICs on these systems. It will be big problem for the Neo-Geo MVS boards when everyone is using the 161-in-1 bootlegs that are so common.

sean
06-28-2014, 05:02 PM
I got video on the nes side using the right side of the R90 connect to the left side or R83 but, sometimes on mario 3 the video glitches as in rolling over and the video is ultra crap on the snes and genesis when I connect .
Would, adding a 75 or 100 ohms resister fix that issue ?

Ace
06-28-2014, 11:46 PM
A little research found me a post by Satoshi where he claims it is 750 on his console.

Sounds to me like someone at the Retro Trio factory made a typo when ordering parts -_-

750 is just the marking on the resistor, but as it's an SMD resistor, it's 75 + 0 zeroes, therefore the end result is 75 ohms. If it were a 750ohm resistor, the resistor's markings would read 751, 75 + 1 zero. To me, it seems he has his TV set too dark because, as I said, on all my TVs, the video looks perfectly fine with 75 ohms at R83.

AlmostOriginal
07-02-2014, 03:00 PM
In the meantime here are some pics of my Ghetto Trio.
http://i.imgur.com/Q6ukHOZh.jpg

The wierd part about those "gray pass trough pcb cables" are that they creat wierd resistance over each other. Dont know why? :S But replace them with better/thicker cable or sheilded if you can find that.

MaxWar
07-02-2014, 03:31 PM
750 is just the marking on the resistor, but as it's an SMD resistor, it's 75 + 0 zeroes, therefore the end result is 75 ohms. If it were a 750ohm resistor, the resistor's markings would read 751, 75 + 1 zero. To me, it seems he has his TV set too dark because, as I said, on all my TVs, the video looks perfectly fine with 75 ohms at R83.
Hah, you must be right. No reason to remove/bridge this resistor then. 75 ohm is pretty much a standard for video line termination.
There seems to be quite a bit of people who want to attempt it because of Satoshi's video though. Someone just Pmed me about it this morning.



The wierd part about those "gray pass trough pcb cables" are that they creat wierd resistance over each other. Dont know why? :S But replace them with better/thicker cable or sheilded if you can find that.

I do not really care enough about the SR3 being this perfect :p. I do not plan on replacing them unless they break.

I think tje SR3 will become my official on the field CRT tester. I gathered close to 30 CRT tvs in the last month from the massive moving period here in quebec, it is just insane they are everywhere. I will test them all and keep the best ones. The SR3 has both composite and sharp snes S-video out of the box. Composite is not stellar but I can take it outside in the yard and mess around with it with no fear of damaging a nice genuine retro console.

Ace
07-02-2014, 06:46 PM
I'm assuming none of those CRTs are widescreen displays with HDMI inputs? If you have one of those TVs, KEEP IT! These things will put any LCD to shame.

MaxWar
07-02-2014, 06:55 PM
I have 1 that is 4:3 HDCRT with hdmi, another HDCRT without HDMI but none that are widescreen.

Someone was giving a trinitron HD CRT 16:9 for free right next to where I live.
I saw the Add on Kijiji 4 hours after it was made. I called and the TV was already gone o_o

Ace
07-02-2014, 07:26 PM
Holy shit! In Montreal, nobody wants CRTs no matter what they are. Listings for 16:9 HD CRTs with HDMI stay for quite a long time around here.

MaxWar
07-03-2014, 02:29 AM
Even on the Free object categories?

Here, anything that is labeled "Free" is subjected to intense competition. There are people refreshing the pages every minute all day long.
I have listed some old beer bottles and a plastic artificial plant on the free categories and both were gone and carried away within 3 hours...

I know someone who listed a water bed for free. Phone rang 30 sec after she pressed the submit button...
Maybe that is only a quebec city thing...
Craiglist is not working in quebec city, I mean zero, there is no one using it. It is utterly dead. But kijiji is booming.

Ace
07-04-2014, 11:13 AM
MaxWar, I need you to test something for me. It would seem light gun compatibility on the Genesis side of the Super Retro Trio is BROKEN; I can't get either the Konami Justifier or Sega Light Phaser working on the console. The Justifier is recognized, but unresponsive, and it seems to cause a HUGE electrical problem as with twin Justifiers and a controller plugged in, the VDP noise increases to insane levels (literally overpowering the audio!) and the video flickers like crazy. The Sega Light Phaser, though, simply does not work and I have no idea why. So I ask you, if you have either of those light guns, to test them on your Super Retro Trio so I can confirm whether Satoshi's Super Retro Trio has defective Genesis controller ports or all Super Retro Trios have broken Genesis and Master System light gun compatibility.

MaxWar
07-04-2014, 03:49 PM
I have a SMS phaser but cannot get it to work on the SMS so that is not looking good so far :s
That might be my tv though, I could test it on a pvm maybe.

I also do not have Light gun games for the genesis, only the SMS. I could try using the Power base converter but that would add more variables in the testing.

Tell you what, I just finished my permanent diode install. I will clean up the install, take pictures and post it here so other people can do it.
Once that is done I will reassemble the SR3 and try using the power base converter and gun games with it. It is the best I can do, wish I could do more but cannot unless I buy more gear.

MaxWar
07-04-2014, 10:22 PM
Ok so I tried finding the simplest way of putting a diode in series with the Genesis cart 5v rail on the SR3 and this is what I came up with. This will remove at least 80% of the VDP audio noise.

First I cut this trace here, This isolate the Cart 5v rail from the rest of the console.
http://i.imgur.com/Q2YJTUN.png

Then By connecting a diode in this way you restore power to the cart slot and get rid of the noise.
Note that I am connected to the output of the power switch for the sega side and not the main 5v.
It is done in a way that the diode will only be powered when the genesis part of the retro trio is on. It will not be powered with SNES or NES are used.
If you connect the diode to the main 5v it is not good and the console will not work.
Also be careful to put the diode in the proper orientation. If you put it backward the game will not work.
Any diode of the 1N400X series should work, they are rated for 1 amp which is more than anough. I used a 1N4007.
Once again thanks to Ace for the idea of using a diode.
http://i.imgur.com/6wvJFPOh.jpg

Kasios
07-07-2014, 11:29 AM
Thanks for your tutorials are great!

Ace
07-07-2014, 12:32 PM
I can confirm the Famicom Disk System runs fine on the Super Retro Trio, but as expansion audio is not mixed into the audio circuit, you will not hear the extra sound coming off the 2C33. I still need to run more tests with my NES and Famicom games and record them running on unmodified hardware, but once that's done, I will see how to add in expansion audio.

Kasios
07-07-2014, 01:25 PM
For example the audio castlevania 3?

Ace
07-07-2014, 03:39 PM
That's the VRC6 in Akumajou Densestu, but it's the same idea. Audio from the 2A03 gets passed into the cartridge, mixed, then output to the TV. The Super Retro Trio doesn't do this with any expansion audio hardware nor does it directly mix expansion audio like when you add a 47Kohm (should be 51Kohms, but, at least with a real VRC6, this needs to be 100Kohms) resistor to a Front-Loader NES to mix expansion audio with the 2A03's audio prior to the amp. The Famicom amplifies the sound from the 2A03 first, then sends it off to the cartridge slot to be mixed from inside the cartridge.

For the Super Retro Trio, direct mixing of expansion audio with the 2A03 is the ideal thing to do since the NES was never designed to have the 2A03's audio output fed into the cartridge and back out again, and the NES side of the Super Retro Trio has an NES cartridge slot, so it needs to follow this, otherwise if you try the Famicom method of expansion audio mixing, you would have to either short the audio input and output pins permanently or modify each individual NES game you have (and not all games can accept a mod like this, either, since later games are missing pins on the card edge). Neither option is a good idea, so the best of doing expansion audio mixing is to directly wire pin 46 (audio out) of a Famicom to NES converter to pins 54 and 55 (this is what the FC Twin and Gen-X use for expansion audio mixing, and they're the only two legal clones I've ever seen do this), then either directly mix the audio with that of the NOAC or add in a resistor to either the NOAC's output or the cartridge's output depending on which source is too loud on the Super Retro Trio's NES motherboard.

Kasios
07-07-2014, 04:31 PM
When would you get a tutorial with pictures and etc..? :D

Ace
07-07-2014, 05:20 PM
Later in the month. I have some events planned, I've got a Gradius board to get up and running again (still need help with that and I made a thread about it) and I need to record the rest of my NES and Famicom games on the Super Retro Trio I have for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware on YouTube which I plan to run alongside RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware (I might be able to get one in the coming weeks). I also have to try and find my own Super Retro Trio, hopefully with a good NOAC and not a bad one that hits false notes left and right.

I will actually make a full write-up of the Super Retro Trio detailing absolutely EVERYTHING I've found about it, either in its own thread or on this thread, like I previously did with the RetroN3 Version 1 and RetroGen Adapter.

Kasios
07-07-2014, 05:25 PM
Please, when you make your super hyper mega story of Super Retro Trio alerts here, so you can all see it. Cheer!

Ace
07-07-2014, 05:36 PM
Definitely. I'm gonna have a lot to cover, so be sure to arm yourself with a lot of patience.

Kasios
07-07-2014, 05:43 PM
Of course!

Kasios
07-12-2014, 02:10 PM
Hello people!
I just finished making mods to the console. The sound, the truth .... I have not noticed a difference, maybe I have not played in good condition with the loud music in the megadrive mode.
What if I have noticed is a very good improvement in the S_VIDEO megadrive output mode.
Thanks guys for the tutorials, you are the best ;)

One question, you can change the region to switch megadrive hot?. Because if you hot swap can play PAL games forcing them to 60 hz, but I do not want to break the console. Do you think guys?.

MaxWar
07-12-2014, 02:41 PM
The diode will not change the sound itself, it will remove the buzzing noise you hear during moments of silence.

Kasios
07-12-2014, 03:36 PM
The diode will not change the sound itself, it will remove the buzzing noise you hear during moments of silence.

Ah, ok :D, and........One question, I can change the region to switch megadrive in hot?. Because if you hot swap can play PAL games forcing them to 60 hz, but I do not want to break the console

MaxWar
07-12-2014, 06:31 PM
You mean flipping the switch while the game is running? As far as I know this will not break anything.
Worst that can happen is the game might freeze.

Ace
07-12-2014, 08:34 PM
Kasios, the TCT-6801 is locked to NTSC output. It doesn't matter what position you have the region switch in, the chipset will ALWAYS output video in NTSC. I have yet to figure out how to get proper PAL output from the chipset.

Regarding an audible change in the Genesis side's audio output, you need to install a Mega Mixer for that. This is a reworking of RetroBit's original amp adapted from the GOAC YM3438 Mega Amp. If you're comfortable with SMD soldering, you could desolder the necessary components on the Genesis motherobard, get the necessary SMD resistors and capacitors, then solder those in. It will sound a lot better than the stock amp, and if you install an unfiltered Mega Mixer, you will get very clear sound. I personally recommend the filtered Mega Mixer as I find unfiltered FM from a Genesis very hard on the ears, not to mention, if you like the sound of the Genesis Model 1 like I do, you will get the exact sound of a VA0 to VA2 Model 1 board without the distortion using a filtered Mega Mixer.

Kasios
07-13-2014, 05:01 PM
Hi, thanks for answering both. I have 2 repros of street of rage 2 and 3. Told the salesman that I wanted in the PAL format. If I put the two games with the switch to PAL mode loaded, but the music and sound are slow and distorted image looks like. If after loading the game, change the switch to NTSC mode, as I choose a character to play the game, as I load the first screen is the perfect game and oyer. I mean, I'm forcing the game to the real speed, which is 60Hz (NTSC). Same as sonic. The PAL sonic is very very slow, and the music too, but when you load the game put the switch to NTSC the game goes fast and the music is also, say, going to the REAL speed by which it was created the game.
As I said mate console will not break if I do this during the games, I stay quiet as it's the same thing to my megadrive 2 and the mod Hertz (50/60hz).

Ace, I am interested in the mixer Mix you speak to install in Super Retro Trio. How Much?, You have a step by step how to guide plate weld? and pictures?. For these things must take a good tutorial with pictures for dummies like me :P

Ace
07-15-2014, 12:37 AM
I don't have any of that yet, I still have 30 some-odd NES games to test on the Super Retro Trio as well as 3 new Super NES games I just picked up. Once I do that, I will put up pictorial guides for each of the different mods you can apply to the Super Retro Trio.

Also, regarding the Mega Mixer, with the appropriate SMD resistors and capacitors, you can integrate it directly into the Super Retro Trio's Genesis motherboard in place of the original circuit. You remove the existing components on the circuit, then put in the ones for the Mega Mixer and off you go.

MaxWar
07-15-2014, 01:28 AM
Once I do that, I will put up pictorial guides for each of the different mods you can apply to the Super Retro Trio.



I was initially thinking about doing a new thread for that, but I moved on to other things now so I would be glad If you do it Ace. You can use the pictures I put in this thread for the S-Video jailbar fix and the Diode fix. As long as you give me credits for the S-Video mod you can can use anything I posted in this thread in your guides.

Ace
07-15-2014, 01:54 AM
Honestly, I would rather rework the S-Video fix so it doesn't break the Composite output and either eliminates or reduces the subcarrier noise in S-Video output, so I won't include that. But I will use your pictures to show the voltage fix for the Genesis cartridge slot with a diode.

MaxWar
07-15-2014, 02:15 AM
Honestly, I would rather rework the S-Video fix so it doesn't break the Composite output and either eliminates or reduces the subcarrier noise in S-Video output, so I won't include that. But I will use your pictures to show the voltage fix for the Genesis cartridge slot with a diode.

I agree, it would be better if the fix preserved the composite. I had tried a few things in that regard but I did not succeed. I still think the fix is interesting and I would suggest documenting it none the less, with a clear indication that it is a compromise or unfinished work. Not only does It offer a strong improvement of S-video, but it could also send other potential modders on the right course to find a fix that preserves the composite. But of course I leave it to your discretion.

Kasios
07-15-2014, 03:49 AM
Also, regarding the Mega Mixer, with the appropriate SMD resistors and capacitors, you can integrate it directly into the Super Retro Trio's Genesis motherboard in place of the original circuit. You remove the existing components on the circuit, then put in the ones for the Mega Mixer and off you go.

That looks very interesting, but as I said before I am very clumsy to do so blindly. It would be nice that "someone" did a manual on how to do the super-retro threesome with step by step with photos. I will be attentive to the improvements gradually by going to this fantastic console ;)

Ace
07-17-2014, 02:53 PM
I agree, it would be better if the fix preserved the composite. I had tried a few things in that regard but I did not succeed. I still think the fix is interesting and I would suggest documenting it none the less, with a clear indication that it is a compromise or unfinished work. Not only does It offer a strong improvement of S-video, but it could also send other potential modders on the right course to find a fix that preserves the composite. But of course I leave it to your discretion.

I'm going to take a look at how the RetroN3 does it as that system, while having subcarrier noise in S-Video, is far more faint than on the Super Retro Trio (except the overall picture is too bright and the Chroma/Luminance balance seems off, resulting in some dull colors).

MaxWar
07-17-2014, 05:01 PM
I'm going to take a look at how the RetroN3 does it as that system, while having subcarrier noise in S-Video, is far more faint than on the Super Retro Trio (except the overall picture is too bright and the Chroma/Luminance balance seems off, resulting in some dull colors).

Yes, comparing with another console that mixes the signal slightly differently would be a good idea. I still find it a little weird that the chroma/luma mixing was not done inside the ASIC, instead requiring a bunch of discrete parts and board space. This is kind of contrary to what those who design these clones usually want to achieve. Not that I complain because if it was done in the asic, chances are we would be stuck with the jail bars and no possible fix.

Ace
07-17-2014, 05:11 PM
It's the same deal with more complete SM801-A1 GOAC that I plan to use in a future Geniclone of my own creation; the GOAC does not natively output Composite, but instead outputs S-Video that needs to be mixed to make Composite and also has an RGB output that is not mentioned in the Russian documents I have regarding this chipset.

I must say, all these mods will definitely come in handy for creating my own GOAC-based clones in the future using both the TCT-6801 (for an entry-level home console and a portable thanks to the chip's internal audio amp that can drive headphones very nicely with EXTREMELY loud sound) and the SM801-A1 (full-fledged Geniclone with RGB, add-on compatibility and maybe even HDMI if I can make a proper RGB to HDMI converter with an ADC + HDMI transmitter chain).

Kasios
08-25-2014, 02:10 PM
As you bring the topic of mods for the console guys ?. Any new news? :D

Ace
08-25-2014, 03:27 PM
I might have something that can help prolong the life of the Super Retro Trio's Super NES board, but I still can't mod Satoshi's system as I need to rerecord every game running on this clone due to some of my capture devices having serious audio sync problems. I would need MaxWar to test this: on the Super NES board is a pin labelled VCC on the bottom-right corner of the board. Break the pin and place a diode in the solder point. It needs to be soldered so that the anode is on the Genesis board and the cathode (striped end) is on the Super NES board. I tested something like this on the RetroN3, but the voltage dropped too low (3.6V, regulator in the console puts out about 4.7 to 4.8V). So now, I would need MaxWar to test this. Add this diode, measure the voltage. Do whatever possible to keep the voltage above 4V but below 4.6V as that is the absolute maximum rating of the RAM on the Super NES board.

Kasios
08-26-2014, 03:58 AM
That's great !. I hope it helps you and Maxwar get this improvement to our consoles !.

Ace
08-26-2014, 12:53 PM
Unfortunately, it turns out the Super NES board's components are not able to run with a diode in place on the power rail. With 4.99V coming in from my power supply and a 1N4004 diode to bring the voltage down to 4.14V, I get nothing. No games boot. There goes this potential fix out the window.

This trend of running 3.3V RAM out of spec needs to stop. I've traced it all the way back to around 2011 as my FC Twin Version 4 is the oldest clone I have to use 3.3V RAM running out of spec. Mark my words, one of these days, there's going to be mass failure of these Super Famiclones all at the same time.

MaxWar
08-26-2014, 02:01 PM
Unfortunately, it turns out the Super NES board's components are not able to run with a diode in place on the power rail. With 4.99V coming in from my power supply and a 1N4004 diode to bring the voltage down to 4.14V, I get nothing. No games boot. There goes this potential fix out the window.

This trend of running 3.3V RAM out of spec needs to stop. I've traced it all the way back to around 2011 as my FC Twin Version 4 is the oldest clone I have to use 3.3V RAM running out of spec. Mark my words, one of these days, there's going to be mass failure of these Super Famiclones all at the same time.

I just found a boxed Retron 2 for 10$ at the flea market this sunday. Do you know if this one also runs on out of spec memory Ace?

Ace
08-26-2014, 02:16 PM
My RetroN2 has mixed 5V and 3.3V RAM, so it's a bit of a crap-shoot with that one. Be advised, though: early RetroN2 have unusable S-Video output to the point where Hyperkin tried to hide it by deliberately leaving out an S-Video cable from the packaging. Those ones will desync horribly (not a board flaw, it's actually an incorrect or missing component in the S-Video circuit as my current RetroN2, using the same boards as my first one, has little to no video sync issues in S-Video).

MaxWar
08-26-2014, 02:23 PM
I think the retron 2 will become a permanent host for my AD adapter or Super Retro advance. I can't be bothered to insert and remove that thing on my snes, I just want a plug ang play setup for GBA. If needs be I will mod the Retro 2 for optimal result with the AD adapter.

Ace
08-26-2014, 02:40 PM
Be advised, the Super NES side of the RetroN2 is dual Mono. You will have to replace the audio amp by a proper dual op-amp setup, preferably running at 9V (might require you to rewire the power switch so the op-amp isn't constantly drawing current even when the console is off).

Otherwise, if you want to get the same sound as a Super NES on the RetroN2, get an LM324, some NPN transistors and a variety of capacitors, resistors, etc. I have schematics to the Super NES' audio amp I can provide you so you can build a replica of the Super NES audio amp for the RetroN2.

MaxWar
08-26-2014, 02:49 PM
Urgh pretty cheap of them to do dual mono.
However the super retro advance uses the sound mixing pins in the cartridge port. I don't think this will be hard to mod as the cart already outputs line level audio, no need for additional opamps.

I have even contemplated the idea of removing the cart connectors in the R2 and solder in the AD adapter permanently and turn this into a little custom GBA console, would look cute on the shevles.

Ace
08-26-2014, 03:09 PM
Pretty clever idea, I'll say. Now, in regards to the audio input pins on the RetroN2's Super NES slot, those get mixed into dual Mono as well. If I remember correctly, the two outputs are mixed together then passed through a 33Kohm resistor going into the transistor-based amp. You might need to do some trace cutting to get around this. I will inspect the circuit on my RetroN2 to make sure.

omp
08-26-2014, 04:49 PM
I remember attempting to use a diode as a voltage "dropper" on an rc car years ago. It wasn't keen, the fkr took off and I had no control (but it flew!).

Kasios
09-01-2014, 04:44 AM
Good morning people. You know if you could make to our fantastic console this mod?


http://retrorgb.com/snesminirgb.html

Ace
09-01-2014, 12:19 PM
At this point in time, only the Super NES side of the Super Retro Trio can output RGB. The mod itself is a lot simpler than this, though. The Super Retro Trio uses a CXA1145, so you can simply add 75ohm resistors and 220uF capacitors in series between the RGB output pins (23 for red, 22 for green, 21 for blue) and whatever plug you will use for RGB output.

For the Genesis side, I'm afraid you're stuck with S-Video at best. I have yet to poke around the TCT-6801 to find RGB outputs, but I don't think it has any. On the NES side, don't even think about it; the 2C02 in the NES only outputs Composite and as a result, that's the only signal an NOAC will output. And no, you can't add an NESRGB to an NOAC as the EXT pins that are typically tied to Ground on the 2C02 are not accessible.

Kasios
09-01-2014, 03:37 PM
You're a machine !. I'll watch for one day you get a tutorial with photos on how to make the console RGB MOD ;)

MaxWar
09-01-2014, 04:51 PM
In my opinion, the most annoying thing with RGB modding the snes part of the SR3 is that you would need to mount a connector on the console and RGB will only work with SNES. So you would need to use the regular connectors for the other parts of the console. Unless you use some king of scart with auto detect that will automatically switch to Composite for the other systems. Unless you have that I say it is not worth it.

Erwin
09-04-2014, 12:22 PM
Picked up two of these beauties, silver and black variant. According to Castlevania II Simons Quest on NES they both seem to have accurate sound on the NOAC. Are there any other titles known to have issues with a junk NOAC?

Unfortunately they both have the out of spec ram, which you can view through the cartridges slot with a flashlight. I left one on for hours running the Super Mario intro demo and didn't pick up any increase in temperature so heatsinks would be a waste of time.

I wish those Genesis jailbars were horizontal...

Even with it's flaws it's still a great machine, just hope those ram chips don't mean it'll turn into a Gen-X in a couple months, the snes seems to be the best of the three.

MaxWar
09-04-2014, 12:32 PM
Grats on getting non glitched NOAC, from using mine a bit I sensed inaccuracies in pretty much any NES games I tried. They can be minor like a slith buzzing sound when you shoot with the buster in megaman 2 to complete trainwreck.

For the genesis jailbars, the only solution as of now is to disconnect chroma from the mixing circuit. It effectively frees s-video of jailbars but you get Black and white composite. So it is not a perfect solution.

Ace
09-05-2014, 11:49 AM
Picked up two of these beauties, silver and black variant. According to Castlevania II Simons Quest on NES they both seem to have accurate sound on the NOAC. Are there any other titles known to have issues with a junk NOAC?

I posted a list of games I personally tested to have false notes here: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?27797-Retron-5-Lets-dump-the-Genesis!&p=666367&viewfull=1#post666367

Nice to see the bad NOACs are going away. Gives me hope I will get a console with a good NOAC.


Unfortunately they both have the out of spec ram, which you can view through the cartridges slot with a flashlight. I left one on for hours running the Super Mario intro demo and didn't pick up any increase in temperature so heatsinks would be a waste of time.

Ideally, those RAM chips should be replaced by their 5V equivalents to prevent premature failure of the Super NES side of the Super Retro Trio. I am rather disappointed in RetroBit, I must say. The overvolted RAM has been reported to them (I reported the fault through Satoshi Matrix who is in direct contact with RetroBit, so he forwarded all the problems I found to RetroBit) and they haven't done anything about it.


Even with it's flaws it's still a great machine, just hope those ram chips don't mean it'll turn into a Gen-X in a couple months, the snes seems to be the best of the three.

What happened to said Gen-X, if I may ask, and what revision was it? I have a Gen-X Version 2 and a rebadged Gen-X Version 1 sold as the Hyperkin SG/FC Dual Action and neither system has had any faults. Both of my consoles work fine (minus their problems with audio, video and in the case of the SG/FC Dual Action, input lag on some Genesis games).

Regarding the revisions, the Gen-X Version 1 has no RetroBit branding, an NOAC with reversed duty cycles and a TecToy-580G GOAC marred by shitty support circuitry and the Gen-X Version 2 has RetroBit branding, an NOAC with correct duty cycles and distorted sound and a TCT-6801 GOAC with worse video output and dual Mono sound.

Erwin
09-05-2014, 03:05 PM
Oh no sorry I should have expressed myself better, I meant a Gen-X as in a clone system with only Genesis and NES support if the overclocked ram kicks it on the snes board, if the system still works that is.

In other SR3 news I haven't been able to get the Genesis multitap to work so far, I have the "performance" 3rd party adapter that does both the EA and Sega modes and so far no dice. So far every Genesis game has been fully functional but the grey cart licensed version Gauntlet on NES displays the map incorrectly and is unplayable, going to order a tengan black cart version and test that. I've also had an issue with NHL 94 on Snes where it will not detect the controllers in either Genesis slot, I have other Snes games with no issues at all from either port but unfortunately I don't have any Snes pads to test with yet, (Genesis collector). I should be getting some soon though and I could just have a bunk cart even though that would be a strange malfunction cart side. If anyone happens to have either licensed Gauntlet NES or NHL 94 Snes I'd love to hear your results.

I will check out the known games with audio issues on my SR3's and report back! I have also ordered another SR3 for a friend and will see if it has issues. The seller I've been purchasing them from is a Canadian retro gaming ebay store and at the time of purchase none had been sold so these could actually be old stock not new so if all three check out perhaps the crappy NOAC is a hip new thing.

Ace
09-06-2014, 01:15 AM
The crap NOAC was there since day 1, but whether your console would have the crap NOAC or not was a question of dumb luck. Some people got good ones, others got stuck with crap NOACs like MaxWar.

Now regarding the non-working multitaps, it's possible this issue is related to the broken light gun support on the Genesis side of the Super Retro Trio. Neither my two Konami Justifiers (pink and blue combined) or my Sega Light Phaser work on the Super Retro Trio. There must be a signal that doesn't work properly on the controller port (the signals from the Genesis controller ports are buffered through 74HC244 line drivers, though I'm wondering if there may be some bidirectional pins on the controller port which would require the 74HC244s be replaced by 74HC245s which are bidirectional).

Ace
09-07-2014, 06:34 PM
Guys, I've received word from a friend of mine that he's picked up a Super Retro Trio for me as he found at a flea market near him. I already mentioned this in another thread, but I'm due to receive this system shortly and I have been sent an audio sample confirming the NOAC has a good APU in it. In case you're wondering, it's a silver/black Super Retro Trio.

Kasios
09-08-2014, 04:24 AM
Guys, I've received word from a friend of mine that he's picked up a Super Retro Trio for me as he found at a flea market near him. I already mentioned this in another thread, but I'm due to receive this system shortly and I have been sent an audio sample confirming the NOAC has a good APU in it. In case you're wondering, it's a silver/black Super Retro Trio.

The super retro black / silver trio is the second console model. Do not?. I like de first model black/red

Ace
09-08-2014, 12:19 PM
No, they were released at the same time. There's a white/blue model that was released later, but is far less common than either the silver/black and black/red systems.

MaxWar
09-08-2014, 10:08 PM
Maybe I should have waited before buying a SR3, leave some time for the bad noacs to be filtered out.

Kasios
09-09-2014, 04:35 AM
Maybe I should have waited before buying a SR3, leave some time for the bad noacs to be filtered out.


perhaps given retrobit like its console units go bad .... and continue to sell consoles but leave some bad.

Ace
09-09-2014, 08:49 AM
It's not the first time RetroBit has had problems with NOACs containing bad APUs in them. Prior to this, both versions of the RetroDuo Portable have had the same problem in the bundled RetroPort Adapter, and I've been told by YouTube user Satoshi Matrix that his standalone RetroPort Adapter has the same problem. My RetroDuo Portable v2.0's RetroPort Adapter has an NOAC with a bad APU and my standalone RetroPort Adapter does not. I do think, however, the worst offender for shoving clones out the door is Hyperkin. The RetroN3 Version 1 was released with a worse NOAC than what was promised, the SupaBoy Version 1 had serious noise issues with the audio output that took a long time to correct to the point where buyers shipping their consoles back were still getting SupaBoys with noisy audio, and the biggest of all is the RetroN2, which had unusable Super NES S-Video when it was first released and it looks like they deliberately tried to hide this problem by not including an S-Video cable, and I remember my first RetroN2 having decent Composite, but horribly desynced S-Video. And now, they managed to screw up the RetroN5's launch, piss people off and have others jacking the price to insane levels whenever they have a RetroN5 to sell.

Kasios
09-09-2014, 09:42 AM
It's not the first time RetroBit has had problems with NOACs containing bad APUs in them. Prior to this, both versions of the RetroDuo Portable have had the same problem in the bundled RetroPort Adapter, and I've been told by YouTube user Satoshi Matrix that his standalone RetroPort Adapter has the same problem. My RetroDuo Portable v2.0's RetroPort Adapter has an NOAC with a bad APU and my standalone RetroPort Adapter does not. I do think, however, the worst offender for shoving clones out the door is Hyperkin. The RetroN3 Version 1 was released with a worse NOAC than what was promised, the SupaBoy Version 1 had serious noise issues with the audio output that took a long time to correct to the point where buyers shipping their consoles back were still getting SupaBoys with noisy audio, and the biggest of all is the RetroN2, which had unusable Super NES S-Video when it was first released and it looks like they deliberately tried to hide this problem by not including an S-Video cable, and I remember my first RetroN2 having decent Composite, but horribly desynced S-Video. And now, they managed to screw up the RetroN5's launch, piss people off and have others jacking the price to insane levels whenever they have a RetroN5 to sell.


The retron 5 is not a clone console, it is an emulator for android clone sold as console. The retron 5 is crap.

Ace
09-09-2014, 11:26 AM
While you are correct as to what the RetroN5 is and you can say a similar thing regarding AtGames clones as those are also running software emulation, albeit a custom (and horrible) emulator on a totally different chipset with no reliance on Android, you absolutely CANNOT jump to the conclusion that the system is crap unless you have the chance to extensively test the console or witness someone testing as thoroughly as someone like myself would. I am currently testing the RetroN5 and while it's not perfect just like all the hardware clones released so far, the system is FAR from crap, and in the case of the NES, its accuracy surpasses all legal hardware clones released to date. As I said, you can't just jump to the conclusion that a clone console, no matter whether it relies on reverse-engineered hardware, software emulation or an FPGA, is crap unless you actually try the thing for youself or see someone thoroughly going over the system and comparing it side-by-side to the original consoles. There have been clones released that sounded good on paper, but the end result was sometimes utter garbage, and then you end up with clones that sound stupid, but with a suprisingly good end result that surpasses most or all your expectations. Take it from someone who's been around legal clone consoles for almost 7 years; research the clones yourself or find someone who is willing to go as in-depth as you would do (or even more in-depth if you're not all that tech-savvy) if you can't get a hold of a particular clone. Most people who "review" clones just blindly say x clone is the awesome without actually delving deeper into their shortcomings, so when you see "reviews" like that, just leave. They're misinformed reviews.

Kasios
09-09-2014, 01:34 PM
While you are correct as to what the RetroN5 is and you can say a similar thing regarding AtGames clones as those are also running software emulation, albeit a custom (and horrible) emulator on a totally different chipset with no reliance on Android, you absolutely CANNOT jump to the conclusion that the system is crap unless you have the chance to extensively test the console or witness someone testing as thoroughly as someone like myself would. I am currently testing the RetroN5 and while it's not perfect just like all the hardware clones released so far, the system is FAR from crap, and in the case of the NES, its accuracy surpasses all legal hardware clones released to date. As I said, you can't just jump to the conclusion that a clone console, no matter whether it relies on reverse-engineered hardware, software emulation or an FPGA, is crap unless you actually try the thing for youself or see someone thoroughly going over the system and comparing it side-by-side to the original consoles. There have been clones released that sounded good on paper, but the end result was sometimes utter garbage, and then you end up with clones that sound stupid, but with a suprisingly good end result that surpasses most or all your expectations. Take it from someone who's been around legal clone consoles for almost 7 years; research the clones yourself or find someone who is willing to go as in-depth as you would do (or even more in-depth if you're not all that tech-savvy) if you can't get a hold of a particular clone. Most people who "review" clones just blindly say x clone is the awesome without actually delving deeper into their shortcomings, so when you see "reviews" like that, just leave. They're misinformed reviews.


You're right, I can not comment on myself, because no console not tested in person. But if I can say that Hyperkin us fooled everyone by promising a console (like super retro trio) and then it is an emulator for android, which will also erase items from your original cartridges because of a bug.

AlmostOriginal
09-09-2014, 01:55 PM
I really hope to see a console from Ace. Because i know it is going to be great. I havent been on this site for a long time but is there a review of the Retron 5 from you Ace?

Ace
09-09-2014, 06:48 PM
Not yet, I'm working on a dual review of the RetroN5 and Super Retro Trio + Super Retro Advance Adapter combination as I have a RetroN5 now and I have a Super Retro Trio of my own with a good APU in its NOAC and a Super Retro Advance Adapter on the way. I will have a full writeup of both consoles at once in their own specific thread.

And regarding a clone console from me... that's not too far off. Hint hint.

AlmostOriginal
09-09-2014, 07:18 PM
Say what!? :eek:
http://www.livefortheoutdoors.com/upload/533453/images/lightwave.jpg
Keep me informed!

Ace
09-09-2014, 10:21 PM
As soon as I receive the Super Retro Trio and Super Retro Advance Adapter (plus an HDMI splitter because my Roxio GameCap HD Pro's audio capture sucks and the HDMI passthrough's audio output is destroyed by this thing's severe clipping and high-pass filtering, which means abnormal distortion and lack of bass - I will use a Toshiba 26HL37 LCD TV as an audio DAC to record the audio separately via a SoundBlaster Audigy 2 sound card on my Lenovo ThinkCentre desktop PC), I will let you know and once I have completed testing and video capture of the RetroN5 and Super Retro Trio + Super Retro Advance Adapter combination (actually, I will record the Super Retro Advance Adapter standalone on a Super NES as the Super Retro Trio is likely to alter the video and audio quality from the cartridge), I will inform you as well as that will indicate the dual review is not too far off.

MaxWar
09-09-2014, 11:40 PM
I wanted to do more tests and mods on the SRA but have not gotten around to it yet. I have done extensive modding on the AD adapter though, which is the same thing inside.
There are various board revisions though and am not sure what differences there are between them.

Here is all the work I did with the AD adapter. I did a mod to have picture and sound pass through a regular SNES too but it is very gimmicky so I do not recommend it.
Those GBA clones might be better used on clone consoles.

http://www.assemblergames.com/forums/showthread.php?48386-Sound-fixes-for-the-Tototek-GBA-SNES-AD-Adapter

Ace
09-10-2014, 01:02 AM
If you have a copy of MegaMan Zero 2 on hand, I'd like to hear what the sound is like on your modded AD Adapter. I would need a sample of Departure, the song that plays during the intro stage, which can be easily recorded.

MaxWar
09-10-2014, 01:37 AM
Sorry I do not have MegaMan Zero 2.
But if you look at the link I just posted in the last post you can download a comparison package. A shame I did not record the AD adapter before the modding but believe me when I say the thing was atrocious.
I brought it to a point where I consider it sounds better than the original GBA and the GameCube attachment. The gamecube Attachment has too much lowpass for me. I know the GC adapter can be modded but then I also prefer the video on the AD adapter, this thing scales very well and looks great on a CRT so it is my device of choice to play GBA.

Ace
09-10-2014, 01:56 AM
If you have a way of loading homebrew on the GameCube, you can actually force the GameBoy Player to output at 240p with Swiss. Apparently, this gives much cleaner video than either 480i or 480p, but I have yet to test this out. Personally, I'd like to try this on an XRGB-Mini, which I do plan on getting so 60FPS capture is easier for me as none of my analog capture devices can record at 60FPS, only 30FPS progressive or interlaced. My upcoming RetroN5 comparison will be recorded at 60FPS and the best way for me to do so as of right now is to get an XRGB-Mini and run the video through that.

AlmostOriginal
09-10-2014, 07:27 AM
As soon as I receive the Super Retro Trio and Super Retro Advance Adapter (plus an HDMI splitter because my Roxio GameCap HD Pro's audio capture sucks and the HDMI passthrough's audio output is destroyed by this thing's severe clipping and high-pass filtering, which means abnormal distortion and lack of bass - I will use a Toshiba 26HL37 LCD TV as an audio DAC to record the audio separately via a SoundBlaster Audigy 2 sound card on my Lenovo ThinkCentre desktop PC), I will let you know and once I have completed testing and video capture of the RetroN5 and Super Retro Trio + Super Retro Advance Adapter combination (actually, I will record the Super Retro Advance Adapter standalone on a Super NES as the Super Retro Trio is likely to alter the video and audio quality from the cartridge), I will inform you as well as that will indicate the dual review is not too far off.

Thank you :love: Good luck with the testing. :)

Ace
09-10-2014, 12:21 PM
Well I can tell you what original hardware the RetroN5 and Super Retro Trio + Super Retro Advance Adapter combination will be compared to:

-NES: Front-Loader NES (will be recorded using Composite)
-Famicom: Audio and video-modded AV Famicom (these mods involve a rebuilt audio amp to fix the AV Famicom's expansion audio balance problems and a tweak to the video amp to better match that of the HVC-CPU-08 and older Famicoms - this will again be recorded using Composite)
-Genesis: VA3 Genesis Model 1 (will be recorded using Composite for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-MegaDrive (NTSC): Japanese VA5 MegaDrive Model 1 (will be recorded using Composite for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-MegaDrive (PAL): European VA6 MegaDrive Model 1 (will be recorded using Composite for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-Master System (PSG): 1986 Master System with v1.3 BIOS (will be recorded using Composite for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-Master System (FM): 1988 Master System with an additional YM2413 (audio circuit made to match the Japanese Master System - will be recorded using RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware - I don't have a Master System converter with a YM2413 so I can't test this setup on the Super Retro Trio)
-Super NES: SHVC-CPU-01 Super NES (will be recorded using S-Video for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware - this system will also be used for the Super GameBoy)
-Super Famicom: SHVC-CPU-01 Super Famicom (will be recorded using S-Video for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-GameBoy: SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 with an underclocked Super GameBoy (recorded in RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware only)
-GameBoy Color & GameBoy Advance: GameCube with GameBoy Player forced to output at 240p (will either be recorded in RGB or Component for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware and Super Retro Advance Adapter vs. Original Hardware (GameBoy Advance only) - the GameBoy Player also has an audio bypass mod to get around the extremely muffled output from the GameCube and the audio will be modified in post-production to match the virtually bass-less output of the GameBoy Color and the unusual filtering of the GameBoy Advance)

On the clones, obviously with the RetroN5, I can only record in HDMI, but for the Super Retro Trio and Super Retro Advance Adapter, I'll record the Super Retro Trio using both Composite and S-Video (Composite for NES, S-Video for Genesis and Super NES) and record the Super Retro Advance Adapter using its Composite output from the 3.5mm plug.

Now if I can just sell off my unnecessary x to HDMI or x to VGA converters so I can get enough funds for an XRGB-Mini... like this, I can get proper 60FPS capture from not just the RetroN5, but everything else as well.

Kasios
09-15-2014, 05:00 AM
Well I can tell you what original hardware the RetroN5 and Super Retro Trio + Super Retro Advance Adapter combination will be compared to:

-NES: Front-Loader NES (will be recorded using Composite)
-Famicom: Audio and video-modded AV Famicom (these mods involve a rebuilt audio amp to fix the AV Famicom's expansion audio balance problems and a tweak to the video amp to better match that of the HVC-CPU-08 and older Famicoms - this will again be recorded using Composite)
-Genesis: VA3 Genesis Model 1 (will be recorded using Composite for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-MegaDrive (NTSC): Japanese VA5 MegaDrive Model 1 (will be recorded using Composite for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-MegaDrive (PAL): European VA6 MegaDrive Model 1 (will be recorded using Composite for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-Master System (PSG): 1986 Master System with v1.3 BIOS (will be recorded using Composite for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-Master System (FM): 1988 Master System with an additional YM2413 (audio circuit made to match the Japanese Master System - will be recorded using RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware - I don't have a Master System converter with a YM2413 so I can't test this setup on the Super Retro Trio)
-Super NES: SHVC-CPU-01 Super NES (will be recorded using S-Video for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware - this system will also be used for the Super GameBoy)
-Super Famicom: SHVC-CPU-01 Super Famicom (will be recorded using S-Video for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware and RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware)
-GameBoy: SNS-CPU-1CHIP-01 with an underclocked Super GameBoy (recorded in RGB for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware only)
-GameBoy Color & GameBoy Advance: GameCube with GameBoy Player forced to output at 240p (will either be recorded in RGB or Component for RetroN5 vs. Original Hardware and Super Retro Advance Adapter vs. Original Hardware (GameBoy Advance only) - the GameBoy Player also has an audio bypass mod to get around the extremely muffled output from the GameCube and the audio will be modified in post-production to match the virtually bass-less output of the GameBoy Color and the unusual filtering of the GameBoy Advance)

On the clones, obviously with the RetroN5, I can only record in HDMI, but for the Super Retro Trio and Super Retro Advance Adapter, I'll record the Super Retro Trio using both Composite and S-Video (Composite for NES, S-Video for Genesis and Super NES) and record the Super Retro Advance Adapter using its Composite output from the 3.5mm plug.

Now if I can just sell off my unnecessary x to HDMI or x to VGA converters so I can get enough funds for an XRGB-Mini... like this, I can get proper 60FPS capture from not just the RetroN5, but everything else as well.


Hello. How about work? ;)

Ace
09-24-2014, 11:55 AM
Super Retro Advance Adapter received and I'm already questioning if I got a defective one or not. Reason: I get MAJOR noise only on the left audio channel. The right audio channel is fine, but the left channel is super noisy. I need to confirm if this is normal or not. Seems to me this thing has Stereo output unlike the AD Adapter if this uneven noise is anything to go by.

EDIT: Just tried the Super Retro Advance Adapter on the Super Retro Trio... WTF is with the audio circuit on this cartridge? On a Super NES, the audio is VERY weak and has zero bass, but when used on the Super Retro Trio, the bass is normal! However, using the audio out of the Super Retro Trio instead of the Super Retro Advance Adapter itself seems to result in a loss of clarity due to the low-pass filter in the console's audio amp. At the same time, the uneven video noise is now on the RIGHT channel, which, to be honest, isn't all that surprising considering the audio output usually has weird noise on the right channel on Super Famiclones. Seems to me this issue is not normal. MaxWar? Do you get this same problem with your Super Retro Advance Adapter?

EDIT 2: Well wouldn't you know it? The buzz is a problem carried over from the AD Adapter, but unlike the AD Adapter, only the left audio channel has major noise. I added a 5600pF capacitor to the Super Retro Advance Adapter in the same way MaxWar added a capacitor to his AD Adapter, the noise is gone. Remove the cap, the noise returns. You'll hear what I'm talking about when the Super Retro Trio + Super Retro Advance Adapter and RetroN5 dual review is ready. I'm actually going to use a Super Famiclone when recording Super Retro Advance Adapter vs. Original Hardware as it's clear the capacitors at the audio output of the Super Retro Advance Adapter are really small and create a MASSIVE high-pass filter with the 200ohm pull-down resistors inside an authentic Super NES. Super Famiclones don't have these pull-down resistors, so the audio does not get mangled like it does on a Super NES.

There is still one last thing to get before I can do the dual review: get my own Super Retro Trio. I currently still have Satoshi Matrix's console which has an NOAC with a bad APU in it and the one I'm due to get is one with a good APU in the NOAC, so that's a whole other set of tests.

MaxWar
09-24-2014, 03:17 PM
I have not messed up much with my SRA yet, but if the AD is anything to go by, no surprise the audio circuit is a mess. It was on the AD.

When connected on a SNES, the mixing pins will actually leech some of the audio signal and degrade the sound out of the 1/8 jack. For a while I had disconnected the audio mixing pin from the snes and I had much better sound out of the 1/8 output.
I want to try it on my retron 2. Those adapters are ill suited to a real snes.

Ace
09-24-2014, 03:50 PM
They're really made for clones. While the audio does still go through to a Super Famiclone's audio amp via the input pins on the cartridge slot, the inputs themselves do not have the 200ohm pull-down resistors on the Super NES' audio inputs. As the last component before the audio gets output from the Super Retro Advance Adapter is a small ceramic capacitor on each channel (and yes, my Super Retro Advance Adapter does output Stereo sound. What about yours?), which, when linked to a resistor connected to Ground, creates a high-pass filter. Said filter is insane when using the Super Retro Advance Adapter on the Super NES; it's so heavy, the noise becomes almost overpowering. Those output capacitors need to be replaced with 220uF caps. This will create a high-pass filter around 3Hz on a Super NES which is nowhere near the audible spectrum of the human ear.

Ace
10-12-2014, 01:32 PM
UPDATE: I received my silver/black Super Retro Trio, but there is still one thing I'm missing before I can start doing a full evaluation of the Super Retro Trio + Super Retro Advance Adapter and the RetroN5. I need a Super Retro Advance Adapter v1.0; what I have is the Super Retro Advance Adapter v1.3, which has some differences to v1.0. Once I get that, the dual review will be posted.

MaxWar
10-12-2014, 07:04 PM
If you want a 1.0 board you might have better luck with the AD adapter rather then the SRA.

Ace
10-12-2014, 09:24 PM
I've been speaking to Satoshi Matrix about having him send me his Super Retro Advance Adapter v1.0 to me so I can complete the dual review as he has one. He's currently got my Master System converter, so I'll ask him to send his Super Retro Advance Adapter to me at the same time that he sends back my Master System converter.

What PCB revision is in your Super Retro Advance Adapter? v1.0, v1.3 or something else?

MaxWar
10-12-2014, 10:29 PM
My SRA is 1.3, My AD is 1.0.
I believe AD and SRA are exactly same thing with only a different label on the cart.

Ace
10-13-2014, 01:07 AM
I know the Super Retro Advance Adapter v1.0 is the exact same thing as the AD Adapter, but the Super Retro Advance Adapter v1.3 has Stereo output out of the box which I'm not sure if the AD Adapter has been updated with yet. Still doesn't account for the bad audio circuit design that doesn't account for the 200ohm pull-down resistors in the Super NES' audio amp at the audio inputs from the cartridge slot.

On that note, which converter has worse high-pass filtering on a Super NES? The AD Adapter/Super Retro Advance Adapter v1.0 or the Super Retro Advance Adapter v1.3?

MaxWar
10-13-2014, 06:52 PM
I have not used My SRA much but when I tired the AD on a SNES the high pass filter was just horrible. The sound was super thin and so noisy.
Yesterday I just scored a boxed retro duo ( V.3 ) for 25$ shipped on ebay so I guess I will have to compare how the SRA works on this compared to the retron 2 :p

Ace
10-13-2014, 07:37 PM
Be advised, there exists a RetroDuo v3.0 variant which I'm naming v3.1 at this point that has been apparently stripped of Castlevania III compatibility. If you get that particular variant, I would need an audio sample of the NES audio output to see how it compares to the RetroDuo v2.0 and RetroDuo v3.0, both of which have mangled audio because of missing components in the audio amp (improper biasing of a transistor is the result of this). I would assume it's a different NOAC in the RetroDuo v3.1 as from some rather blurry video, I was able to determine the NES motherboard has been highly simplified compared to the RetroDuo v2.0 and v3.0, both of which share the same board, the only difference is the color of the solder mask (green for v2.0, blue for v3.0).

Erwin
11-21-2014, 09:53 AM
How is the SR3 for Super Famicom games? I just realized something tonight that I wish I'd realized sooner. I had to part with my SNES collection years back and we all know the NA SNES cart prices are horribly high, so the idea of forking out that much money to get the essentials starting out at nil isn't really worth it. So I started browsing ebay looking for Super Mario All-Stars because it's a classic and wanted to check the prices, a Super Famicom version of the cart popped up for much less. Now if I remember right the SR3 plays Super Famicom carts just not regular Famicom carts. That got me thinking that I could get a good start at a collection by tracking down all the games where language is no issue, like Super Mario. I don't even have a legit SNES anymore just two SR3's and a copy of Super Mario World. I know both regions are NTSC so that won't be an issue. What do you guys think of this plan?

MaxWar
11-21-2014, 09:02 PM
I have not actually tried a SFC game on the SR3 but typically they work just fine on those clones.

Ace
11-21-2014, 11:05 PM
They do work fine including copies of Super Mario RPG with a lockout chip check thanks to the PIC12F629 microcontroller serving as a lockout chip clone.

Erwin
11-22-2014, 02:30 AM
YES! That is great news, I'm pretty excited at the prospect of loading up on SF carts. Know of any good games that still retain English text? So far Super Metroid is the only title I've found that has this feature or do you recommend any decent games that were only released in that region that don't require reading?

MaxWar
11-22-2014, 03:13 AM
Depends on what type of game you are into really. Of course you miss on the RPG because of the language barrier but any kind of shmups, run'n gun and things like that you are golden. A great example is Agane. I got a JP copy for 45$ this summer. ( Still a great price, the JP game goes in the 65-90$ range ). Anyway, that is pretty cheap compared to 500$ for the US cart, haha. Game plays the same, almost no reading whatsoever. Just run around and kill stuff.

Also, If all you want is play games, maybe consider SD2SNES of super everdrive?

Kasios
02-24-2015, 12:25 PM
What is the difference in PAL NTSC model to model ?. You know if anyone has photos of the plate PAL console?

Kasios
02-25-2015, 04:43 PM
Well, due to the success of my previous post, publish a new post with photos of PAL console model. I encourage you to encontreisi differences between the USA Motherboard and the European Motherboard.

PICS

http://i59.tinypic.com/md2is9.jpg

http://i60.tinypic.com/alq9vr.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/mwpi5i.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/2mrzms0.jpg

MaxWar
02-25-2015, 06:58 PM
typically the encoder settings and clock are the main difference.

Kasios
02-25-2015, 07:41 PM
typically the encoder settings and clock are the main difference.

And this

http://i57.tinypic.com/sv53xh.jpg

Ace
02-25-2015, 08:45 PM
Looks like the TCT-976 has been reconfigured for PAL output and the CXA1145 has been rewired to generate a PAL color subcarrier frequency. What about the NES and Genesis boards? What's different on those?

And I still see 3.3V RAM on this thing... but it looks like there are some voltage regulators... being shorted out by a 0ohm resistor! What's the friggin' point if you're going to short the damn regulator with a 0ohm resistor???

Kasios
02-27-2015, 09:34 AM
A friend of mine a forum in Spanish. has changed its PAL console with a switch and now can perfectly play all PAL and NTSC games on your console. I can do the same with my console NTSC?

http://i58.tinypic.com/4t7yp2.jpg

http://i57.tinypic.com/whh4l1.jpg

http://i61.tinypic.com/2vi2epz.jpg

http://i62.tinypic.com/fcratz.jpg

Kasios
02-28-2015, 05:54 AM
No comment?

Ace
02-28-2015, 01:31 PM
That actually doesn't fully set the Super NES side to NTSC. What's actually being output from the console when the TCT-976 is set to NTSC is actually PAL60, which is essentially NTSC with a PAL color subcarrier. In Europe, this shouldn't be an issue, but in North America, some TVs will display the video signal with no color.

Now, can I get pictures of the NES and Genesis boards? I would like to see if anything's been changed on those boards.

Kasios
02-28-2015, 01:38 PM
That actually doesn't fully set the Super NES side to NTSC. What's actually being output from the console when the TCT-976 is set to NTSC is actually PAL60, which is essentially NTSC with a PAL color subcarrier. In Europe, this shouldn't be an issue, but in North America, some TVs will display the video signal with no color.

Now, can I get pictures of the NES and Genesis boards? I would like to see if anything's been changed on those boards.

I just asked the friend if you can spend the pictures, I am waiting for your response. But you tell me, Can I make a switch and make the motherboard work SNES 50hz me ?, If so tell me where I should lso soldering wires to the switch, thanks.

Ace
02-28-2015, 07:08 PM
You have an NTSC Super Retro Trio? If you do and your TV can handle PAL video with an NTSC subcarrier, you can simply wire a switch exactly like your friend did. That will give you PAL and NTSC compatibility on your Super Retro Trio.

Now I found a video of the PAL Super Retro Trio and it seems as if the NES side runs like a Dendy, i.e. it has PAL speed and PAL video output, but its audio is like an NTSC NES. The Genesis side, though, appears to be stuck in NTSC or perhaps the region switch actually works properly for setting the TCT-6801 to PAL and NTSC. I would need to check the crystals used on each board. It should be 17.7314MHz for the Genesis side and 26.601712MHz for the NES side.

Kasios
02-28-2015, 07:39 PM
You have an NTSC Super Retro Trio? If you do and your TV can handle PAL video with an NTSC subcarrier, you can simply wire a switch exactly like your friend did. That will give you PAL and NTSC compatibility on your Super Retro Trio.

Now I found a video of the PAL Super Retro Trio and it seems as if the NES side runs like a Dendy, i.e. it has PAL speed and PAL video output, but its audio is like an NTSC NES. The Genesis side, though, appears to be stuck in NTSC or perhaps the region switch actually works properly for setting the TCT-6801 to PAL and NTSC. I would need to check the crystals used on each board. It should be 17.7314MHz for the Genesis side and 26.601712MHz for the NES side.

Hello. Yes my USA console is, so is the NTSC model. But I can not see where you connect the switch to the snes area. Could you tell me where ?, thanks. Is the PAL and NTSC mother board are different things are in different places and have some different components.

This is my snes NTSC motherboard

http://i59.tinypic.com/23i6jd0.jpg

Ace
02-28-2015, 08:32 PM
There's a small trace between two points on the N-P jumper pad that needs to be cut. Once that's done, if you want to permanently set the output of the TCT-976 to PAL, put a blob of solder on the pads like on your friend's PAL Super Retro Trio. The extra components are not entirely necessary if your TV handles PAL video with an NTSC subcarrier. The critical point is that N-P jumper pad. Do as I said to set the TCT-976 to PAL, then see if you get video in color. If you do, the video encoder doesn't need to have extra components added so it generates a PAL color subcarrier frequency.

Kasios
03-01-2015, 04:22 AM
There's a small trace between two points on the N-P jumper pad that needs to be cut. Once that's done, if you want to permanently set the output of the TCT-976 to PAL, put a blob of solder on the pads like on your friend's PAL Super Retro Trio. The extra components are not entirely necessary if your TV handles PAL video with an NTSC subcarrier. The critical point is that N-P jumper pad. Do as I said to set the TCT-976 to PAL, then see if you get video in color. If you do, the video encoder doesn't need to have extra components added so it generates a PAL color subcarrier frequency.

Hello. You can forgive me ?, I have not understood anything, sorry. Say something of a NP bridge. Where is this bridge ?, I'm not very good with electronics. Do not want to permanently convert PAL console, and want to make a switch to change from 50 hz to 60 hz when I want. Please, I would be very grateful if you point out in the photo the exact area where I have to solder 3 wires to the switch. Thank you very much ;)

Ace
03-02-2015, 01:34 PM
See the trace linking the N side of the N-P jumper?

http://i.imgur.com/RDqhOjHl.jpg (http://imgur.com/RDqhOjH)

It's indicated by a black arrow. You have to cut this trace, then solder a switch like the one your friend used in the exact same way he did. If it's too hard to see, you can click on the image to enlarge it.

Kasios
03-02-2015, 02:16 PM
See the trace linking the N side of the N-P jumper?

http://i.imgur.com/RDqhOjHl.jpg (http://imgur.com/RDqhOjH)

It's indicated by a black arrow. You have to cut this trace, then solder a switch like the one your friend used in the exact same way he did. If it's too hard to see, you can click on the image to enlarge it.

hello
Thanks for the explanation. The friend of the plate PAL answers me, not even to say NO, in short, wanted to have happened photos MEGADRIVE area and NES that you wanted, but as nothing to me ...
IN SNES area carrying a glass plate that has NTSC, why?

Kasios
03-16-2015, 08:32 PM
Anyone know why the game Megadrive / Genesis Pier Solar And the great architeets not work on the console ?. If I put it on the console is turned on but it gives black image in both PAL and NTSC mode mode, however in my Megadrive 2 Modified normal running smoothly, why?

http://i60.tinypic.com/20sf2ib.jpg

http://i58.tinypic.com/2zqeae1.jpg

MaxWar
03-16-2015, 09:41 PM
Dat glob top, looks alive.

Kasios
03-17-2015, 10:34 AM
Not found the game (Pier Solar...) WHY???

http://i62.tinypic.com/vziknb.jpg

KnightWarrior
04-23-2015, 01:16 AM
Did Retro-Bit end up fixing the Audio on the NES side?

Bibin
04-23-2015, 01:22 AM
Dat glob top, looks alive.

My favorite part is that it's just a regular ROM / FLASH ROM / etc underneath, it's not even a die on board mount.

Ace
04-27-2015, 02:02 AM
Did Retro-Bit end up fixing the Audio on the NES side?

I believe they did. My personal Super Retro Trio has the false notes problem fixed, but despite that, there might be a few random audio bugs that occur, but they're never consistent. Unlike Super Retro Trios with bad NOACs which spew false notes virtually non-stop, Super Retro Trios with good NOACs may hit a false note at random (probably some corruption on the bus is causing this - I've seen some other NOACs do this for a while, then stop).

Ace
06-25-2015, 05:15 PM
I am bumping this thread for a warning. To anyone who reads this: measure the voltage going to the TCT-6801 on the Genesis board of the Super Retro Trio. I have found out the voltage it puts out on two different Super Retro Trios is far above what it should be. This is a 3.3V chipset, but I'm measuring 4.2V coming out of the extra regulator on both systems. It appears NOT to be a 3.3V regulator at all. If you measure over 3.6V coming out of your Super Retro Trio's Genesis board regulator, I STRONGLY advise you replace it with a proper 3.3V regulator. The chip is being powered beyond safe voltage ranges for a typical 3.3V IC.

Kasios
11-18-2015, 02:36 PM
Hello
I tried making the switch MOD 50/60 hz for the super nintendo using this photo

http://i.imgur.com/gDqdNzE.jpg


Hello
I tried making the switch MOD 50/60 Hz for NTSC mode console Super Nintendo using this photo.
After much effort trying to cut the small track and not take anything more ahead, I soldier three wires to a switch, and does not work well, that is, the 50Hz mode works well but is in black and white SVIDEO and AV , why?. A friend of mine has super retro Trio PAL version did the same (he wanted to take the 60 / 50Hz mode), soldered three wires to a switch and go both ways (50 and 60 hz color both SVIDEO and AV. For Please, I would like to ayudaseis me to tell me because they see me 50 hz in black and white mode and if you could get it in color, thanks.

@ MaxWar
@ Ace

Ace
11-19-2015, 08:30 AM
The CXA1145 is not encoding the video signal correctly. There is an extra jumper pad like this which may need to be cut and wired to your switch, and I believe that changes the encoding mode of the CXA1145 itself between PAL and NTSC.

Also, there is a possibility your TV does not accept PAL Composite with an NTSC subcarrier, in which case you would need to replicate the circuit used on your friend's PAL Super Retro Trio. The reason the 50/60Hz switch works on his is because the encoder is fixed to the PAL color subcarrier, which results in PAL (50Hz) and PAL60 (60Hz) output. PAL60 generally seems more accepted by TVs, so if you can't get a color Composite or S-Video output, you will have to add in a PAL color subcarrier circuit.

You can also do one last thing to bypass the encoder almost entirely. If you have TVs that take RGB over SCART, mod the Super NES board for RGB output. For this, you can take the RGB outputs from the CXA1145 and wire them through 75ohm resistors to an extra connector like, say, a Nintendo multi-A/V out. Just make sure to use NTSC Super NES SCART cables or other equivalent RGB cables that only have 220uF capacitors on the RGB output if you go ahead with this. Since there's no need for a color subcarrier over RGB, all color problems from the inferior two signals (seriously, if you can use RGB, don't even bother with Composite and S-Video) become irrelevant.

Kasios
11-19-2015, 09:55 AM
Thanks for answering.
My TV is a 32 "LED, and to test the switch I connected by composite cable and SCART adapter, as this TV has composite input as such.
Usually I have the console connected by svideo my framemeister rescalator and works great with any console. When fabricating the switch and put the 50hz nothing is looked for frammeister, only the music was heard, that's why I connected directly to the TV and you can see that there is in black and white.
Please, I have to do to make it look in the color SVIDEO and AV output ?, thanks.

Kasios
11-20-2015, 05:05 AM
The CXA1145 is not encoding the video signal correctly. There is an extra jumper pad like this which may need to be cut and wired to your switch, and I believe that changes the encoding mode of the CXA1145 itself between PAL and NTSC.

Also, there is a possibility your TV does not accept PAL Composite with an NTSC subcarrier, in which case you would need to replicate the circuit used on your friend's PAL Super Retro Trio. The reason the 50/60Hz switch works on his is because the encoder is fixed to the PAL color subcarrier, which results in PAL (50Hz) and PAL60 (60Hz) output. PAL60 generally seems more accepted by TVs, so if you can't get a color Composite or S-Video output, you will have to add in a PAL color subcarrier circuit.

You can also do one last thing to bypass the encoder almost entirely. If you have TVs that take RGB over SCART, mod the Super NES board for RGB output. For this, you can take the RGB outputs from the CXA1145 and wire them through 75ohm resistors to an extra connector like, say, a Nintendo multi-A/V out. Just make sure to use NTSC Super NES SCART cables or other equivalent RGB cables that only have 220uF capacitors on the RGB output if you go ahead with this. Since there's no need for a color subcarrier over RGB, all color problems from the inferior two signals (seriously, if you can use RGB, don't even bother with Composite and S-Video) become irrelevant.

Thanks for answering.
My TV is a 32 "LED, and to test the switch I connected by composite cable and SCART adapter, as this TV has composite input as such.
Usually I have the console connected by svideo my framemeister rescalator and works great with any console. When fabricating the switch and put the 50hz nothing is looked for frammeister, only the music was heard, that's why I connected directly to the TV and you can see that there is in black and white.
Please, I have to do to make it look in the color SVIDEO and AV output ?, thanks.

Kasios
11-21-2015, 04:55 AM
Please, I have days with open console gathering dust, I would like someone to help me with my problem, at least I say if you can do and how exactly and if you can do well, so close the console and forget the subject, thank you.

@Ace
@MaxWar

Ace
11-21-2015, 08:07 PM
You'll have to reproduce the circuit from your friend's PAL Super Retro Trio so the CXA1145 can encode the RGB output properly to PAL.

Also...


My TV is a 32 "LED, and to test the switch I connected by composite cable and SCART adapter, as this TV has composite input as such.

WHY IN GOD'S NAME ARE YOU USING A COMPOSITE TO SCART ADAPTER?! If your TV can take RGB over the SCART input, don't even bother trying to fix the color-less Composite and S-Video output. Add an RGB output to the Super Retro Trio's Super NES board by soldering a 75ohm resistor and 470uF capacitor on pins 21, 22 and 23 of the encoder. If you need any extra assistance, I can show you how to repurpose the S-Video output as an all-in-1 Composite/RGB output for your TV. With this setup, your TV would be able to auto-switch between Composite for the NES and Genesis sides, and RGB for the Super NES side. If your TV takes S-Video over SCART, however, you could probably use S-Video on the Genesis side instead of Composite.

Kasios
11-21-2015, 09:19 PM
You'll have to reproduce the circuit from your friend's PAL Super Retro Trio so the CXA1145 can encode the RGB output properly to PAL.

Also...



WHY IN GOD'S NAME ARE YOU USING A COMPOSITE TO SCART ADAPTER?! If your TV can take RGB over the SCART input, don't even bother trying to fix the color-less Composite and S-Video output. Add an RGB output to the Super Retro Trio's Super NES board by soldering a 75ohm resistor and 470uF capacitor on pins 21, 22 and 23 of the encoder. If you need any extra assistance, I can show you how to repurpose the S-Video output as an all-in-1 Composite/RGB output for your TV. With this setup, your TV would be able to auto-switch between Composite for the NES and Genesis sides, and RGB for the Super NES side. If your TV takes S-Video over SCART, however, you could probably use S-Video on the Genesis side instead of Composite.


Hi, thanks for answering, but I think I have explained poorly or not you understood me well.
I do not play in SCART or RGB. I have connected my console output to the SVIDEO my frammeister and nothing else. SVIDEO I like the quality of the console, the only thing I want is to see nothing more in COLOR on the SNES in 50Hz mode.
So I wonder if I can put the snes color mode at 50 Hz at its output svideo. If so, please, tell me what to do according to photo, which materials do I need and where I weld, thanks.

http://i.imgur.com/aGFDgCR.jpg

@Ace

Kasios
11-25-2015, 03:46 AM
Some help for my problem ?. Anyone?:|

Kasios
11-27-2015, 09:57 AM
Well, apparently that is participatory people, I'll try one more time. Could anyone help me with my problem ?, Thank you.

Kasios
08-07-2016, 02:04 PM
Hi. after so long, I'm back, I see that this post is a little abandoned, I hope someone answer me: P.
I want to make MOD expanded tone of Nes, for those games like Castlevania 3 Jap famicom with two extra audio channels. I wonder if I have to change something in my console to play with my Famicom game.
I've also been playing the adapter Nes Famicom and not get it to work, any help please ?, is important for me to play Castlevania 3 in full condition.

This is mi Fault MOD adapter

http://i.imgur.com/vj5KZBO.jpg

http://i.imgur.com/HkATV15.jpg

Ace
08-09-2016, 08:46 PM
That mod looks fine, but if you want expansion audio on a Super Retro Trio, you need to mod your system to pass the audio from either pins 51 or 54 on the NES cartridge slot to the audio amp on the Super NES board. If I remember correctly, resistors R2 and R3 on the Super NES board carry audio from the NOAC to the audio amp.

I suggest you keep an eye on this thread over the coming month as I'm going to publish a number of mods for the Super Retro Trio to improve many aspects of the system from audio to video to compatibility. You will get all the information necessary for a proper expansion audio mod then.

Kasios
08-10-2016, 03:45 AM
That mod looks fine, but if you want expansion audio on a Super Retro Trio, you need to mod your system to pass the audio from either pins 51 or 54 on the NES cartridge slot to the audio amp on the Super NES board. If I remember correctly, resistors R2 and R3 on the Super NES board carry audio from the NOAC to the audio amp.

I suggest you keep an eye on this thread over the coming month as I'm going to publish a number of mods for the Super Retro Trio to improve many aspects of the system from audio to video to compatibility. You will get all the information necessary for a proper expansion audio mod then.


Thank you very much "ACE". I'm glad you're back around here. I look forward to complete these tutorials in this forum. I really want to do the MOD audio, and many more MODS to the console. Thanks for being there!.

EDIT: More or less what day next month you're posting the mega-tutorials?. To be attentive to the forum ;)

Ace
08-10-2016, 07:23 PM
The earliest I will post the full audio mod (it's actually REALLY involved) is August 16. There are still a few small things that are untested such as Super GameBoy audio mixing.

I should point out, I'm working on a very temperamental Super Retro Trio with bad RAM on the Super NES board to complete the massive audio mod, which is likely to slow things down quite a lot. I have to record a massive number of videos for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware on my channel covering every NES, Super NES, Genesis, Master System and GameBoy game I have using my personal Super Retro Trio as well, and with the many times I've changed my capture methods and XRGB-Mini settings, it's made me trash a number of old recordings multiple times over. As such, my personal system will not be modded for a while.

I can tell you this, at least: you can make a Mega Mixer for the Genesis side as the chipset is the TCT-6801. All the necessary solder spots are there, it's just a matter of changing 6 resistors and two capacitors.

At the same time, you should replace the LM358 on the Super NES board by the TDA1308. It's a much better dual op-amp, is very common and quite cheap.

Kasios
08-10-2016, 07:44 PM
The earliest I will post the full audio mod (it's actually REALLY involved) is August 16. There are still a few small things that are untested such as Super GameBoy audio mixing.

I should point out, I'm working on a very temperamental Super Retro Trio with bad RAM on the Super NES board to complete the massive audio mod, which is likely to slow things down quite a lot. I have to record a massive number of videos for Super Retro Trio vs. Original Hardware on my channel covering every NES, Super NES, Genesis, Master System and GameBoy game I have using my personal Super Retro Trio as well, and with the many times I've changed my capture methods and XRGB-Mini settings, it's made me trash a number of old recordings multiple times over. As such, my personal system will not be modded for a while.

I can tell you this, at least: you can make a Mega Mixer for the Genesis side as the chipset is the TCT-6801. All the necessary solder spots are there, it's just a matter of changing 6 resistors and two capacitors.

At the same time, you should replace the LM358 on the Super NES board by the TDA1308. It's a much better dual op-amp, is very common and quite cheap.



Thanks for answering ACE. The truth is that you're my only hope in relation to our console. Can you believe there's more forums or sites by Inteernet like this regarding the console ?. That's why I say that only you have a key to get the juice to the console.

Regarding the audio portion megadrive, I'm dying to know to be changed, and if notice much difference.

On the subject of snes ....... this is the chip you said, right?

http://www.qiannipicture.com/pic/uploadfile2/UploadFile/P0/SKU453881/B7829A3616923696479C97D6C60333239ACCA133C9D29EC6C8 C6D272C7464663D2CC56C65AC9D29E3316C8139BBA669B1373 56CAF5CD.jpg

It is cheap if 2 euros brought from England. Really all these tutorials that you do notice the difference ?. I have also wanted to do the extra audio NES, I have the Castlevania 3 waiting.
Otherwise, the NES fix for MMV4 and chips MMC5 really recommend I do ?. For me that look good to my games NES / Famicom. That chip for NES fix ... you have to record something on that chip ?, or just wires welded to chip and already ?.
There are only "6" days for the August 16 !!!.

Ace
08-10-2016, 10:33 PM
That's the chip, but I suggest you get just the chip, not a PCB with the chip already on it.

I actually found an incomplete schematic on my computer and finished up the full layout last night, hence the earliest date being August 16. I just need to test a few things before I can put it up.

Kasios
08-11-2016, 03:27 AM
That's the chip, but I suggest you get just the chip, not a PCB with the chip already on it.

I actually found an incomplete schematic on my computer and finished up the full layout last night, hence the earliest date being August 16. I just need to test a few things before I can put it up.

ACE Thanks, I'll be attentive to the 16th of August ;)

Kasios
08-13-2016, 08:42 AM
ACE, one thing. Could you put the list of things that are needed just to make all the mods ?. So I'm buying it for when you publish tutorials and not wait that long, thanks.

Kasios
08-17-2016, 01:04 PM
Well, @Ace has disappeared in combat :Panda:

Kasios
08-24-2016, 10:52 AM
I have already received the chip, now I guess I have to solder it in somewhere ...

http://i.imgur.com/LgGhS3x.jpg

Kasios
08-26-2016, 01:41 PM
I just replace the chip audio amplifier by "Philips" ..... and do not notice any difference.

MasterGenesis
08-27-2016, 08:49 PM
I wonder if the Super Retro Trio can play this:
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/0/24/10986-780px-Genesis_power_base.png

Kasios
08-28-2016, 07:01 AM
Hi. The only person I know who knows more about this console is the user Ace. But he disappeared from the world. Unresponsive to the forum or private messages .... hope alive.

MasterGenesis
08-28-2016, 09:34 PM
Sure wish I knew him.

Kasios
08-29-2016, 09:35 AM
Sure wish I knew him.


This morning "Ace" to updated their youtube channel. Hopefully remember us and we need the help Ace, and between here.

EyeDeeNo76
08-29-2016, 10:31 AM
I wonder if the Super Retro Trio can play this:
Take a look at this video at 12:00 he tries to fit the Power Base converter to the Super Retro Trio and it doesn't fit at 1:04:00 he uses the Power base Mini and it works.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khUMwiV12dM

Kasios
08-31-2016, 09:44 AM
Hi. Do any of you have made MODS on your console?

Kasios
09-03-2016, 11:52 AM
I ask again all the forum. SOMEONE here has made MODS for RETRO SUPER TRIO?

Ace
09-08-2016, 08:48 PM
Good lord, Kasios! Are you that desperate?! I'm just gone because I'm busy dealing with multiple computers and prepping things for YouTube and you flip out thinking I'm dead? My God, chill out man.

Also, I'm on a new computer I just put together (just got the CPU yesterday, AMD FX 8320 - say what you will about this thing, I like it) and had to set up all my software again and transfer all my data as well as reset my password because I couldn't log in anymore. That took some time and I'm still not done with the data transfer.

That aside... you got the wrong TDA1308. You need the SMD/surface-mount version of the chip to replace the LM358 on the Super NES motherboard. I don't know what you did with that TDA1308, but that is not the one you need.

In regards to the circuit, I still have to reinstall ExpressSCH on this new PC, but I did finalize it. Provided nothing goes wrong, I can get it up by tomorrow morning.

Oh, and one more thing... DO NOT SPAM MY INBOX!!! All it does is contribute to major annoyance and I will ignore you. Are we clear?

EDIT: Forgot to respond to this post:


I wonder if the Super Retro Trio can play this:
http://static.giantbomb.com/uploads/scale_small/0/24/10986-780px-Genesis_power_base.png

It won't physically fit, but it does work when disassembled (or if you're using the Master System Converter II or an equivalent 3rd-party converter).

Kasios
09-09-2016, 10:55 AM
Good lord, Kasios! Are you that desperate?! I'm just gone because I'm busy dealing with multiple computers and prepping things for YouTube and you flip out thinking I'm dead? My God, chill out man.

Also, I'm on a new computer I just put together (just got the CPU yesterday, AMD FX 8320 - say what you will about this thing, I like it) and had to set up all my software again and transfer all my data as well as reset my password because I couldn't log in anymore. That took some time and I'm still not done with the data transfer.

That aside... you got the wrong TDA1308. You need the SMD/surface-mount version of the chip to replace the LM358 on the Super NES motherboard. I don't know what you did with that TDA1308, but that is not the one you need.

In regards to the circuit, I still have to reinstall ExpressSCH on this new PC, but I did finalize it. Provided nothing goes wrong, I can get it up by tomorrow morning.

Oh, and one more thing... DO NOT SPAM MY INBOX!!! All it does is contribute to major annoyance and I will ignore you. Are we clear?

EDIT: Forgot to respond to this post:



It won't physically fit, but it does work when disassembled (or if you're using the Master System Converter II or an equivalent 3rd-party converter).


How I have bad chip ?, I've installed replacing as you told me, a chip on the other.

http://i.imgur.com/bClD8fl.png

That was what you said to me. I have replaced the chip that you told me that had to be replaced. And I have welded pin to pin with thin wire in the same position as the original. And the music and the sound is as before.

Ace
09-09-2016, 11:47 AM
You just made life harder for yourself by getting the THROUGH-HOLE version of the TDA1308, not the surface-mount version. The surface-mount version looks like this:

http://imgusr.tradekey.com/p-6610074-20120917075029/tda1308-sop-nxp.jpg

Also, you will not hear a difference right away, you need to replace much more than just the LM358. I'm about to reinstall ExpressSCH, so I'll have the audio amp schematic up soon.

Kasios
09-09-2016, 12:34 PM
Shit!!!. So this would be suitable for welding in the exact place where it was before the other chip?

This chip serves me?

http://snbelectronics.perso.neuf.fr/images/semiconductors/TDA1308HA.jpg


Nothing. I wait to see if someday share mods for console, a warm greeting from Spain.

Ace
09-09-2016, 01:40 PM
Yeah, that's the TDA1308 you need. Remember, the LM358 on the Super Retro Trio is a surface-mount version of the chip; using a through-hole TDA1308 will just make things unnecessarily more difficult.

Data transfer between PCs is going much slower than I expected and I'm making final preparations for something completely out of my usual content on YouTube, so the schematic will be delayed. I have ExpressSCH installed, but the schematic is still on my old PC.

Kasios
09-09-2016, 07:52 PM
Is something missing more to amplify the sound snes section ?. I remember you told me just to need to replace the chip and nothing else. Incidentally, the Mod extra audio channels in the NES not work for me either.

Ace
09-09-2016, 09:02 PM
The Super NES side needs to have the 3rd-order low-pass filter found on the original system added in to prevent crackling as there's a lot of inaudible, high-frequency garbage in the audio output. The NES side doesn't have expansion audio wired to the audio amp, so that needs to be added as well.

Hang tight for a few more minutes, I'm in the middle of transferring the last of my data to my new computer. The schematic is going up as soon as that's done.

EDIT: And here it is! Click to enlarge.

http://i.imgur.com/SkgK8Kul.png (http://imgur.com/SkgK8Ku)

As you can see by the name, this is a universal circuit that will work on ALL x-in-1 clones. The TDA1308 in the schematic, as it pertains to the Super Retro Trio, is what you use to replace the LM358 that's on the motherboard. There are two capacitors you need to remove on the Super Retro Trio, which are C42 and C43.

Also replace R4 and R17 by 20Kohm resistors and add two 200ohm resistors to Ground on the two audio inputs from the Super NES cartridge slot (the two pins furthest to the right of the slot).

For NES expansion audio, take that from pin 54 of the cartridge slot. You can also make a Mega Mixer setup at the GOAC.

I'll post a full guide when I get to modding my own personal Super Retro Trio like this. The mod was tested in a RetroN3 Version 2, which isn't relevant to this particular case.

Kasios
09-10-2016, 03:11 AM
Mother of God!. What a mess!. You will not have "pictures" marked and identified what needs to be removed or put exactly ?. Sorry, I'm lost.
I just ordered the TDA1308HA Class AB stereo headphone 1pc Soic 8 I said chip. Comes from France, apparently, these things are not sold everywhere.

Ace
09-11-2016, 12:43 AM
I'll get a proper picture with the parts to remove, replace and add later this week. I have some new content to work on for my YouTube channel, but f*** me, my cameras and microphones suck! I have to get through that mess first.

One thing I can tell you for sure is that you have to build the Super NES 3rd-order low-pass filter (the op-amp circuit using the LM358) yourself and add it to the console as the Super Retro Trio doesn't have said filter. You could start by building that circuit. Focus on parts U2, R4 to R11, R16 and R17, C2 to C7, and C12 and C13. Those parts make up the 3rd-order low-pass filter. Like the notes say, you absolutely MUST have this circuit to prevent excessive crackling in the audio.

Kasios
09-11-2016, 03:43 AM
I'm very clumsy with these things. I prefer to wait to do the tutorial with photos to know that things have to be removed, that things have to be put, and that things have to be welded, because only understand these things when I see the pictures and tell me that "this chip is removed and add this one to that place. " A greeting.

Kasios
09-27-2016, 04:37 AM
When are you going to publish tutorials, Ace ?. Knowing it would be nice to not have open every day this website and see if you wrote something, I would be very grateful ACE.

Ace
10-15-2016, 08:41 PM
I'm running really behind with the clone hardware things as I'm working on a few very time-consuming projects, but I wanted to pop into this thread as I've been informed by someone on YouTube of an updated Super Retro Trio where Super NES audio has gone to shit. Apparently, these new systems can be identified by a date stamp with the year 2015 on the Super NES board. Beware of these systems if you're looking for good Super NES audio; I can't comment on the NES and Genesis sides, however.

UPDATE: The new Super Retro Trio Version 2 no longer ships with Genesis controllers inside Super NES controller cases. The system has been changed to use the Super NES controller ports as the universal controller ports for all three sides of the system instead of the Genesis controller ports, and as such, the pack-in controllers are now proper Super NES clone controllers. I was also informed of a very concerning marking silkscreened onto the NES board, VT08. I've seen several Famiclones with NOACs that are named VTxx, with xx being any 2-digit number (such as VT03 in the Generation NEX), and these are usually the God-awful "enhanced" OneBus NOACs from VRTech with two APUs that have reversed duty cycles, oversaturated video, incorrectly wired cartridge slots and operate at 3.3V rather than 5V. I really hope the Super Retro Trio Version 2 hasn't been this badly degraded, that would be an absolute travesty worse than the RetroN3 having garbage Super NES audio and going all over the place with the NES side for the past 4 hardware revisions.

ANOTHER UPDATE: The Super Retro Trio has officially gone from being the best multi-console clone to being as much of a joke as the RetroN3 Version 3 and 2.4GHz Edition. I've been sent an audio sample from the Super Retro Trio Version 2's NES side and can confirm what I feared... the pretty decent NOAC of the Super Retro Trio Version 1 has been replaced by a pile of crap with reversed duty cycles. News flash, we're in 2016, what are these abominations still doing in Famiclones?! They're like parasites that just won't go away!

But what I'm about to say now is totally inexcusable and should be grounds for RetroBit to fire all their engineers. I was sent pictures of the internals yesterday, and the audio setup has gone back to the old style of using individual amps linked together via resistive adders, which, it itself, is okay, but not ideal. This, though, is where shit hits the fan... the Super NES audio amp IS AN EXACT COPY OF THE ONE USED IN THE RETRON3 SINCE VERSION 2!!! It's literally the same dual transistor setup with mind-bogglingly high gain (we're talking just over 37x gain) and a high-pass filter that kills off so much bass, it's like listening to games through a phone speaker.

RETROBIT, WHAT HAVE YOU DONE?!?!?!

The Super Retro Trio Version 2 is quite possibly the most degraded Famiclone hardware revision to have ever been made. It's like a sick joke, but it's not, this thing is real, and it's horrible! What a travesty to see RetroBit pretty much pull a Hyperkin on a clone many of us held in high regard. I need to get one of these things to get the word out there, and rip the system and RetroBit a new one. What is this thing?!

Kasios
10-23-2016, 02:08 PM
I'm sitting waiting for the friend ACE publish all tutorials fantastic Retro Super Trio. Perhaps, did a year of these?:?

chrisw80
11-03-2016, 04:57 AM
1175711756117541175511758

These pictures are for Ace mentioned on his youtube channel that I would take pictures of mine. No matter how much light my Canon 16MP digital camera got, it didn't take great pictures.
It has a good NOAC, at least to me. Ace, did they ever fix the SNES ram being overvolted?

My experience with the Super Retro Trio has been mostly positive. The controllers are garbage, both controllers down buttons stopped working after around 5 hours playtime on each, the Genesis controller ports are the main on mine. If I had to pick which console clone was the worst of all 3 I would have to pick the Genesis side. If only because the battle music in Shining Force 1 for Genesis is mostly inaudible. Sounds fine with every other game, honestly.This along with my flash carts has become my travel console, otherwise I still use the original consoles at home. I think the SNES side is nearly perfect, it definitely has better picture quality over S-Video then my official SNES has over RGB, and the sound is spot on. NES side besides the occasional off note is great as well.

Ace
11-03-2016, 04:32 PM
Kasios, I don't have JUST the Super Retro Trio to focus on, I am working on a number of different Famiclones, I'm preparing some videos in anticipation of a review for the NES Classic Edition, I'm trying to get a retroUSB AVS and I'm working on my own clones all at the same time. Be patient, because if you keep nagging me like this, you won't get anything, period. Nagging me is the best way to NOT get what you want.

Chris, I'm afraid to say your Super Retro Trio has 3.3V RAM throughout, and it looks like your system may be a Super Retro Trio Version 1.5 with a few minor layout changes as my system has different Super NES and Genesis motherboards inside. Is the Super NES video encoder still the CXA1145?

However, I do wonder why you say the controllers are garbage. Unless RetroBit's changed them for your particular revision, the Super Retro Trio I got has the single best pack-in controllers to have ever been included with a clone console. I do know the Super Retro Trio Version 2 has a different controller that is pretty much exactly the same controller that comes with the RetroN2 and FC Twin, which is still not too bad, but isn't quite built as well as the Super Retro Trio Version 1 controllers.

In regards to the RAM problem, it seems RetroBit only partially solved the problem with the Super Retro Trio Version 2 (now it's 50/50 between 5V and 3.3V RAM), but the rest of the hardware is so badly degraded, it's not even worth it.

Now for a note regarding Genesis S-Video. I've been messing with a RetroN3 Version 2 all week as I'm trying to mod one I bought for a friend several years ago, and this system uses the same TCT-6801 GOAC as the Super Retro Trio, but has much better S-Video all while having really dark and really horribly green-tinted Composite. I've been having all sorts of problems trying to get Composite and S-Video looking good, but after having found a full schematic of a different GOAC, the SM801-A1, which has the same method of generating Composite (independent Chroma/Luminance outputs with a mixing/filtering circuit) and through trial and error on this RetroN3, I think I figured out why the Super Retro Trio's S-Video has so much subcarrier noise. The RetroN3 pulls Luminance directly from the GOAC, but it seems on the Super Retro Trio, at least on Version 1 going by my experiments on the RetroN3, Luminance is pulled from the filter circuit just before Chroma and Luminance are mixed together to generate Composite, resulting in a loss of clarity and heavy subcarrier noise. I would assume this is how S-Video works on the Super Retro Trio; I will do some circuit retracing to confirm later on. If this is the case, getting better S-Video should be a matter of partially removing a resistor and adding a wire to grab Luminance directly from the GOAC. A few other components may need to be changed on the Composite circuit, as well.

Lastly, it seems the RGB outputs from the TCT-976, which is the Super NES clone twin PPU, are not strong enough going into the video encoder. As a consequence, the resulting Composite and S-Video outputs aren't as bright as they should be. Swapping out three 1Kohm pull-down resistors on the RGB outputs from the TCT-976 with 1.3Kohm pull-down resistors will bring up the brightness to the level of a real Super NES or just slightly darker. Again, I've done this with the RetroN3 and got considerably brighter video. I have an idea where the resistors in question are on the Super Retro Trio Version 1, so I'll confirm tonight which resistors need to be replaced. I might actually publish what I've found if the same mods I applied to the RetroN3 Version 2 can be carried over to the Super Retro Trio Version 1.

EDIT: Chris, I think your system has a KA2198BD in it. Can you confirm this for me? Also, it appears there are some extra components on the 3.3V rail to the RAM. That's still wrong as while the RAM is powered properly, the I/O from the TCT-97x chips is still 5V and will wear down the inputs to the RAM. If you can, get a multimeter and check the voltage coming off the bottom-right pin of the components labelled U9 and U10. They look like transistors, but they could be 3.3V regulators.

Kasios
11-03-2016, 07:46 PM
Ace, Oh !, do not worry, I'm also "super mega hyper" busy in many things, and I will not bother anymore, good luck with your time "I soooo busy" goodbye and one pleasure ;).

chrisw80
11-03-2016, 10:28 PM
Ace, I will crack it back open on Wednesday. My next day off work. Test it with my multi-meter. The controller button pads are probably just real low quality or misaligned. Will also open them up and snap pictures. Oddly enough my cellphone takes better pictures than my digital camera: so will definitely take more pictures as well. I did notice the CXA1145 when I took it apart.

Ace
11-04-2016, 12:51 PM
I'm sure the encoder is actually not a CXA1145, but rather the KA2198BD because, even though your pictures aren't THAT clear, I can vaguely make out recognizable text for the KA2198BD and I can see missing components around the encoder that are required for the CXA1145 to encode Composite properly. I would assume, in that case, that your Super Retro Trio would have better Super NES video quality, especially over Composite.

On another note, I spent all night last night working on the video circuitry of the Super Retro Trio Version 1 and I've seen some really off things. Some of the weird or outright incorrect things I've seen are the following:

-Double-buffered Composite video (basically, Composite is passed through two transistors one after the other - it's redundant)
-Luminance for the Genesis side is taken from the wrong place (as I suspected, Luminance is taken just before it gets mixed with Chroma to generate Composite, and at this point, it's not only very noisy, but also very blurry)
-Many of the video buffers are using small series capacitors to feed the signal into the transistors (that generally is not ideal)
-Incorrect biasing for the NES Composite buffer (it's being biased with a 10Kohm resistor to VCC and 15Kohm resistor to Ground, which discolors the video output quite considerably - this should only have a single 2.2Kohm resistor to VCC)
-NES Composite over S-Video is done COMPLETELY wrong (Composite is taken AFTER the transistor used to buffer the raw video signal from the NOAC, which is all kinds of wrong as this allows Composite from the Genesis and Super NES sides to get mixed with their respective Chroma and Luminance outputs for S-Video)

NES Composite over S-Video is also done in a really messy manner with a bunch of resistors, capacitors and inductors that I assume are some sort of filter circuit to reduce the intensity of the checkerboard pattern you typically get by passing Composite over S-Video. I will work on this a little more right now, then publish the necessary mods either tonight or Sunday night.

UPDATE: Almost done with the video mods, but there appears to be a problem with the Composite pass-through on the Super NES side. The video from the CXA1145 is perfect (typical blurriness, but nothing can be done about that as it's an inherent characteristic of the encoder), but I can't get a proper signal from the Composite pass-through with the Super Retro Advance Adapter. The signal is fine up to the 4066 CMOS switch, but when it comes off the transistor, the signal is completely desynced and I haven't found a way to fix this yet. I will investigate this further tonight.

chrisw80
11-04-2016, 06:00 PM
I'm sure the encoder is actually not a CXA1145, but rather the KA2198BD because, even though your pictures aren't THAT clear, I can vaguely make out recognizable text for the KA2198BD and I can see missing components around the encoder that are required for the CXA1145 to encode Composite properly. I would assume, in that case, that your Super Retro Trio would have better Super NES video quality, especially over Composite.

On another note, I spent all night last night working on the video circuitry of the Super Retro Trio Version 1 and I've seen some really off things. Some of the weird or outright incorrect things I've seen are the following:

-Double-buffered Composite video (basically, Composite is passed through two transistors one after the other - it's redundant)
-Luminance for the Genesis side is taken from the wrong place (as I suspected, Luminance is taken just before it gets mixed with Chroma to generate Composite, and at this point, it's not only very noisy, but also very blurry)
-Many of the video buffers are using small series capacitors to feed the signal into the transistors (that generally is not ideal)
-Incorrect biasing for the NES Composite buffer (it's being biased with a 10Kohm resistor to VCC and 15Kohm resistor to Ground, which discolors the video output quite considerably - this should only have a single 2.2Kohm resistor to VCC)
-NES Composite over S-Video is done COMPLETELY wrong (Composite is taken AFTER the transistor used to buffer the raw video signal from the NOAC, which is all kinds of wrong as this allows Composite from the Genesis and Super NES sides to get mixed with their respective Chroma and Luminance outputs for S-Video)

NES Composite over S-Video is also done in a really messy manner with a bunch of resistors, capacitors and inductors that I assume are some sort of filter circuit to reduce the intensity of the checkerboard pattern you typically get by passing Composite over S-Video. I will work on this a little more right now, then publish the necessary mods either tonight or Sunday night.

UPDATE: Almost done with the video mods, but there appears to be a problem with the Composite pass-through on the Super NES side. The video from the CXA1145 is perfect (typical blurriness, but nothing can be done about that as it's an inherent characteristic of the encoder), but I can't get a proper signal from the Composite pass-through with the Super Retro Advance Adapter. The signal is fine up to the 4066 CMOS switch, but when it comes off the transistor, the signal is completely desynced and I haven't found a way to fix this yet. I will investigate this further tonight.

You're probably right. I have been taking apart and cleaning /fixing a lot of consoles lately. I see the CXA1145 a ton.

Ace
11-08-2016, 05:13 PM
After having spent 3 days trying to figure out what to do about that God-forsaken Composite pass-through on the Super NES side, I finished Super Retro Trio Version 1 video and audio mods. I'm in the middle of preparing multiple different hardware for a review of the NES Classic Edition and Famicom Classic Mini, and I even misplaced the rechargeable batteries for my camera (whoops), so once that's done, I'll take pictures from my personal Super Retro Trio Version 1 and pinpoint the exact components that need to be replaced/removed.

chrisw80
11-10-2016, 09:56 PM
11815 11816 11817 11818 11819

Sorry for the late response.

This topic has shown me I need to get a new Camera and Multi-meter.

Looks like U9 & 10 are infact 3.3V regulators. Is this at least a better option than sending 5V to the 3.3V ram?

Ace
11-21-2016, 07:13 PM
Your attachments are broken, but nevertheless, I would think that's actually WORSE for the chip than overvolting it because even though the chip is running at the correct voltage, the I/O is still at 5V, and is FAR above even the absolute maximum I/O voltage, which should be VCC + 0.5V and recommended I/O voltage is VCC + 0.3V. That means the I/O should not exceed 3.6V, but it's still at 5V, and the RAM is still running well out of spec. There's no way around it, you HAVE to replace the RAM with 5V RAM.

SquallDark
12-16-2016, 12:36 AM
Hi. Finally I can post here, that was really long xD .

Just wanted to share the photos I did some months ago of the new revision in Super Retro Trio, here is the gallery (http://imgur.com/a/Py1nM) .

About mods, I applied an audio fix for the Snes side, Ace (and thanks to him for the help) already told it on the previous page that this model use the same audio-amp of Retron3, so you know how bad sound that, fortunately is fixable with an easy fix (well, I guess not for everyone). The other one I did was the region change from the N-P zone (not labeled in the board... well, almost everything is not labeled in my unit :? ), so now I can successful change between NTSC and PAL... forced to 60Hz of course.

Right now I'm looking at a strange flickering in the Nes image, Ace told me can be dot crawl but I'm not really sure, if I'm not wrong dot crawl just happen when the image is moving, right? but this happen with a static one, I tried to make video capture but my only hardware able to do that is not compatible with this console resolutions, maybe I can recreate this in a GIF so I'll look at it.

Nothing more for now, just hope this SR3v2 images help others and share ideas. Thanks. See ya.

Ace
12-18-2016, 05:51 PM
The NES tends to display dot crawl even on stationary images, and if you were to do a 60FPS recording of the NES from its stock Composite output, you would see edges distort slightly from one frame to the next. The top of the screen also warps to the left every second frame. Does the Super Retro Trio Version 2 do the same thing?

SquallDark
12-30-2016, 07:51 PM
Hi.


The NES tends to display dot crawl even on stationary images, and if you were to do a 60FPS recording of the NES from its stock Composite output, you would see edges distort slightly from one frame to the next. The top of the screen also warps to the left every second frame. Does the Super Retro Trio Version 2 do the same thing?

Never seen a original NTSC Nes running in a CRT but it seemed strange to me see something like that, in some saturated colors is really noticeable like for example the tree leaves in the WoodMan stage from MegaMan 2 or the green ground from Willow.

I still don't have nothing to do a video record for this resolutions, so can't say how it works... I'll tell you when I can. See ya.

Ryoandr
12-30-2016, 09:05 PM
NES does a thing called burst offset that tends to minimise dot crawl on static screen, it looks like this (but faster)
http://i.imgur.com/BPOymfR.gif

however in scrolling it tends to generate a ton of artifacts. Some devs were clever about it and synched the scroll speed to the burst offset, however the moment you're faster or slower, ugliness appears.
I tried to capture it with blaster master, however my phone suck in video ; but you can see the awful shimering in grass and bush when you're on foot because of the slightly slower scroll speed.
http://webmshare.com/play/gKwa0

Ace
12-30-2016, 09:29 PM
That's precisely what I was referring to. I always thought it was a manifest of dot crawl as the picture kept on having that little bit of flicker from what I now know is burst offset.

That sort of scrolling artifact happens a lot with the Shoot-'em-Ups I play on the NES as most have slow scrolling. Everything gets distorted. I can't remember if a PAL NES does this, though, and my French RGB NES doesn't even have a video cable nor do I have a separate Composite output on it.

Ryoandr
12-30-2016, 09:57 PM
French NES has an additional composite to RGB decoder, that adds another layer of artifacting. From my memories on static screen there's fixed artifacts, and once you start moving there's an effect close to a non-interger scaling, it's absolutely disgusting.

SquallDark
12-30-2016, 10:05 PM
Hi.


NES does a thing called burst offset that tends to minimise dot crawl on static screen, it looks like this (but faster)
http://i.imgur.com/BPOymfR.gif

however in scrolling it tends to generate a ton of artifacts. Some devs were clever about it and synched the scroll speed to the burst offset, however the moment you're faster or slower, ugliness appears.
I tried to capture it with blaster master, however my phone suck in video ; but you can see the awful shimering in grass and bush when you're on foot because of the slightly slower scroll speed.
http://webmshare.com/play/gKwa0

"Scrolling Artifacts" and "Offsetting the NTSC colour burst" I already knew about it :) , just wondering if this is the same thing just because I never seen an NTSC Nes in a CRT and surprised me (I'm from Spain, and PAL systems never did that), and now testing the Noac of the SR3 I was wondering that it could be a defective one or some problem in the video output.

Thanks for the video, yes I can see that flickering issue when you stop in the corners and is same what happen here but MORE faster, I guess because of recording with a camera the effect is not the same (I'm unable to record the effect).

It started to seem strange to me when I tried more games, in some of them (Willow) the effect is so strong that gives you the feeling that something is not working well, that's why I was really surprised. Then I guess everything is correct.

Thanks again for your video and time ;) . See ya.

SquallDark
02-01-2017, 08:05 PM
Hi. A guy asking for some mods in one of our spanish community show us a image with difference RAMs in the Snes side:


http://i64.tinypic.com/k31utk.jpg

Some info about this ISSI RAMs?... oh, and apparently RetroBit gonna release a new version of SR3 with HDMI port, what shall we meet this time? :?


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/C1rF8iQUoAElPYd.jpg

Ace
02-01-2017, 09:19 PM
Just checked the datasheet for that ISSI RAM and it's... 5V RAM! Finally some 5V RAM that fits the short TSOP solder pads!

What about the Mitsubishi RAM? I can't read the part number.

SquallDark
02-02-2017, 01:14 AM
Hi. Before my last post I asked to the owner of that unit more screens, but still no answer.

To all this, the Samsung RAMs that come in my unit at the end are 5V?


http://i.imgur.com/IeEKMJA.png

The last time we talked about it was not very clear.

Edit: Nah, was checking the datasheet's myself and all of them with YF70 end are 3.3V/3.6V max :? . See ya.

Ace
02-02-2017, 08:25 AM
I believe I said your Super Retro Trio was using 3.3V RAM for everything, i.e. both the Mitsubishi and Samsung RAM.

Now, it would be nice if RetroBit smartened up and finally ditched 3.3V RAM outright, but considering how poor the Super Retro Trio Version 2 is compared to the Super Retro Trio Version 1, it doesn't really help much. It helps for reliability, but that'll do you no good when the base hardware is so badly botched.

EDIT: There seem to be a number of conflicting datasheets for the M5M5256DVP RAM chips, some of which indicate variants that are apparently capable of operation at both 3.3V and 5V. From what I can tell, M5M5256DVP-70G is 5V RAM, but the variant shown in MaxWar's Super Retro Trio Version 1 is the M5M5256DVP-85VXL-I which is a RAM chip that should not operate higher than 3.6V. The critical part seems to be whatever follows the M5M5256DVP part number as that will dictate access time in ns and also what voltage the RAM needs to operate at. In this case, the Mitsubishi RAM in your Super Retro Trio Version 2 is safe, but the Samsung RAM needs to be replaced by that ISSI RAM in the other Super Retro Trio Version 2 you showed.

Speaking of which, you can get the proper ISSI RAM at Mouser. I've just ordered a batch of 10 to do RAM replacement on my own Super Retro Trio Version 1 and any other clones that come my way with 3.3V sTSOP RAM (this is critical! Many of these clones use sTSOP, which is shorter than standard TSOP).

EDIT 2: And I think I see the correlation between part number and voltage. By inspecting several different datasheets from Mitsubishi, I noticed the 3.3V RAM chips have a part number along the lines of M5M5256DVP-xxVyy, with xx indicating access time and yy being any trailing letters. The critical part is the V after the access time; if that V is present, it indicates 3.3V RAM. If there's no V, the RAM can operate at both 3.3V and 5V.

SquallDark
02-02-2017, 03:30 PM
Hi. I remember you said this Mitsubishi are 5V RAMs but was not clear with the Samsung one, sorry if I bothered you.

Yes, RetroBit just screwed with this revision, the damage is done and is here but while this machine works I will gonna use it, we will see what will happen with the next revision even though the HDMI port does not interest me... by the way, Zapper don't work in my SR3, the trigger got recognized but not the light sensor and I guess is because of the change they did in the controller ports and not a fault of the NOAC. The same with the Super Scope, but I guess this happen too with the v1.

The ISSI RAM you ordered was IS61C1024AL-12TLI?, maybe I order some of this too. Thanks. See ya.

Ace
02-02-2017, 06:17 PM
Are you using a CRT? You will not get the Zapper to recognize anything if you use something other than a CRT.

As for the RAM, I ordered the IS61C1024AL-12HLI. The IS61C1024AL-12TLI is a longer TSOP package that won't fit the solder spot taken by the Samsung RAM chips. That would work on a system like the RetroDuo Portable that can take either TSOP type, but not on the Super Retro Trio.

SquallDark
02-02-2017, 09:02 PM
Hi. Of course I'm playing in a CRT 60Hz but it refuse to work, no matter what position I set in the controller switch... Zapper in port 2, trigger works and selections move but not sensor action. Nes and Nasa N81 no problems.

Got it, I misunderstand your comment about TSOP thinking this was the small one, then I will order some of this IS61C1024AL-12HLI one day. Thanks. See ya.

Ace
02-03-2017, 09:43 PM
Got the ISSI RAM in and installed it not in a Super Retro Trio, but rather a RetroDuo Portable v2.0 (the original CPU RAM on mine was not only overvolted, but also faulty out of the factory and died while attempting a reflow). Just want to share some advice from my experience:

-I HIGHLY suggest you use a hot air rework station to solder the chips rather than a soldering iron
-Have a pair of tweezers with you to manipulate the chip
-Apply some pressure with the aforementioned tweezers when passing with the hot air over the chip's pins. Simply sitting the chip on top of the solder pad may result in one or more pins failing to solder properly.

The RAM looks to be a bit short for the necessary solder pad, but it can still fit.

SquallDark
02-08-2017, 03:54 PM
Hi. I was also thinking that using hot air would be the best option... so, your RetroDuo Portable is still alive? :) .

Changing the topic, I recently obtained one of this new Mega EverDrive x5 and testing Master System games I was surprised this SR3 can change to SMS mode, just one question for those that can test this in a v1, some games show graphics issues like in Wonder Boy III - The Dragon's Trap?. In my MK-1631-50 there is no problems. See ya.

Ace
02-08-2017, 05:50 PM
Yep, the RetroDuo Portable is back up and running. Now I can record a proper comparison video of the RetroDuo Portable v2.0 to the Super NES and NES.

Graphical errors are a known problem with clone GOACs no matter the chipset. Between the TCT6035, TCT-6801 and the TecToy-580G, every one of these chipsets has had graphical errors with my Master System games, particularly those with memory paging chips. Not sure why this happens.

Lastly, I will soon be able to publish some fixes to the audio and video circuit to bring audio levels up to those of the Super NES as well as corrections to the video circuits so that they put out the correct voltage (1Vpp over Composite and Luminance, about 0.8Vpp over Chroma), though I'm having a bit of a hard time with the Genesis side due to how it generates Composite. The TCT-6801 natively outputs S-Video and uses a discrete mixer with several capacitors, resistors and inductors to mix Chroma/Luminance into Composite, then outputs the mix through a transistor into the TV. There is a resistor on the board that appears to limit the current going to the internal video circuit (the lower the resistor, the brighter the videos), though for whatever reason, Luminance puts out a lower voltage than the Composite mix. This makes it quite difficult to get the video output right because when you tweak one output, you mess up the other one. I'm going to have a better look later tonight.

SquallDark
02-10-2017, 06:43 PM
Hi. The owner of the ISSI SR3 (PAL model) he uploaded more screens and I created an album with them.

Super Retro Trio v2-ISSI (Kucko) (http://imgur.com/a/TfYYB)

What I can see is that in Snes they have changed the Mitsubishi 70G by a 10VLL (xxVyy :? ) and according to their datasheet they operate at 3.6V max, and is not appreciated very well in the photos but I think they maintain the resistances 272 in the audio circuit, what's wrong with the people of RetroBit?... have new date revision and video encoder also changed and returned to the Sony CXA1145M, as in v1.

The Nes has a new date revision and apparently still have a VT08 but I do not see anything different, unless something changed in the circuit of the cartridge slot (there's no photo of back).

I don't see anything new in Genesis part, the date is the same.

What do you think Ace?, Try not to get angry too much :p .

Ace
02-14-2017, 11:30 AM
It's a minor revision of the original NTSC Super Retro Trio Version 2 boards to support PAL video encoding. There were zero provisions for the necessary encoder circuitry to allow for PAL encoding on the older boards... but wait, what's this? Look at the NES board; there's an additional solder spot for what looks to be a 5V regulator right in front of the 5V power connector. In such a system, I would personally remove the copper strand bridging across the input and output pins and install an LM2940-5 voltage regulator. This would protect the system in the event someone accidentally uses a power supply with more than 5V at the output (LM2940s are low-dropout regulators and are able to work properly even with 5V going into them).
And just when I thought RetroBit finally moved entirely to 5V RAM... these manufacturers will never learn. I have to question where they got their engineers from because they clearly have no idea what the f*k they're doing. 3.3V RAM where it doesn't belong (wouldn't be such a bad thing if they AT LEAST ran the RAM at 3.3V with some series resistors between the RAM and the chipset, ideally using level shifters to properly convert between 5V I/O at the chipset and 3.3V I/O at the RAM), incorrect component choice in the audio amps (use of an LM358 for Version 1's audio amp, which is okay but can't be pushed very far; using 10Kohm resistors for the TCT-6801's FM outputs, in itself a bad idea as that will cause some low-frequency and PCM distortion; using 10Kohm resistors on ALL outputs from the TCT-6801, which adds overblown PSG on top of the YM3438 distortion; using shunt feedback transistor amps for the Super NES audio amp in Version 2, itself not necessarily incorrect, but the implementation leaves a lot to be desired), missing components (200ohm pull-down resistors on the Super NES cartridge slot's audio inputs, which causes excessive noise and overblown Super GameBoy audio; the entirety of the 3rd-order low-pass filter used by Nintendo on the Super NES, which has the potential to cause heavy crackling due to what I can only presume is a lot of inaudible high-frequency garbage in the output; overvolting the TCT-6801 in Version 1 with the wrong regulator, the consequences being self-explanatory; use of a series diodes to bring voltage down to 3.3V for the TCT-6801 on Version 2, should be a proper 3.3V regulator; directly wiring the Genesis cartridge slot to 5V on Version 1, again going back to the 3.3V/5V I/O problem; use of a 10ohm resistor to the 5V pins on the Genesis cartridge slot in Version 2, which is not only incorrect, but also causes serious voltage drops in certain circumstances; all video circuits deviate off proper NTSC specs, usually under the correct voltage and with no AC coupling, meaning some pretty significant DC offset along with darker-than-normal video).
Also, MY GOD is that Super Retro Trio Version 2 built like crap! It looks like someone's amateur project with extreme and unnecessary amounts of hot glue and white residue absolutely EVERYWHERE.

Right, so I will prepare a mod guide for the Super Retro Trio Version 1. I'm quite busy with commissions this week, so I'm going to see about getting the guide done by the weekend. First, however, I must give you a fairly hefty warning:

THERE IS A HUGE AMOUNT OF SURFACE-MOUNTED SOLDERING REQUIRED! IF YOU ARE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH THIS, DO NOT ATTEMPT TO PERFORM THE MOD UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES. IF YOU KILL YOUR CONSOLE, YOU ARE THE ONLY PERSON RESPONSIBLE FOR DOING SO.

I will make this very clear even if the mod guide is nowhere near ready because it's very easy to rip a solder pad off the Super Retro Trio Version 1's PCBs and RAM replacement is EXTREMELY delicate. I will offer Super Retro Trio mod work as a service for Canadian and American Super Retro Trio owners (Version 2 mods will be offered when I either have a system in my possession or someone is willing to send me theirs so I can experiment with it), but international Super Retro Trio owners will have to contact me first as return shipping from Canada to your country may be very expensive.

SquallDark
04-04-2017, 12:20 AM
Hi. Testing Super GameBoy in my SR3v2, I noticed a distorted/loud audio (the same crap as before modifying the snes part of the console, but now with the SGB), without problems in the real Snes so I guess is another failure of clone systems/SR3... some information about why happen this?. See ya.

Ace
04-05-2017, 05:20 PM
Super NES hardware clones are missing the required 200ohm pull-down resistors for the audio inputs coming from the cartridge slot. You will need to add 200ohm resistors between the audio inputs (pins 31 and 62, the right-most pins on the cartridge slot when looking at the top of the system) to get the audio levels right.
You replaced all the 2.7Kohm resistors on the audio amp with 33Kohm resistors, right?

SquallDark
04-06-2017, 12:36 AM
Hi. Yes I did it, Snes games sound good (compared with the 2.7 resistors, that was horrible), but now SGB is giving loud audio and because of this some games that are enhanced with extra sounds (like Kirby's DreamLand 2) is barely noticeable.

You are forced to do this in the console slot?, don't work in the SGB pins directly?.

Edit: Is this scheme right?.

http://i.imgur.com/6AYwYVkh.png

Thanks. See ya.

Ace
04-08-2017, 09:50 PM
Yes, that pinout is correct. Solder 200ohm resistors between the two audio input pins and Ground.

SquallDark
04-09-2017, 07:07 PM
Hi. Can be there any problem using the own ground of the cart slot?, like this:

http://i.imgur.com/pSAAsen.png

How much watts need to have the resistors?, and (maybe you forgot to answer this question), can I do the same modification in the SGB pins directly instead of the console cart slot?. Thanks and excuse me for bothering you. See ya.

Ace
04-10-2017, 11:08 AM
It's a bad idea to do the mod within the Super GameBoy as when you will want to use the cartridge on a real Super NES, the 200ohm resistors in the cartridge will be in parallel to those in the Super NES itself, with the end result being an effective resistance of 100ohms. This will seriously screw up the volume levels on a real Super NES.

In regards to where to solder the resistors within the console, you can pretty much use any Ground point on the motherboard. Your idea is perfectly fine. As for resistor wattage, I recommend 1/8W or 1/4W.

SquallDark
04-11-2017, 08:07 PM
Hi. Done, resistors installed and working, SGB give a correct level now, all sound gorgeous and can be appreciate the special effects... I'm not sure but I think the FX games I tested sound better now too, with more bass.

Taking advantage of the situation I made photos of the back that I had left to do and uploaded to the imgur gallery, if you want you can take a look: http://imgur.com/a/Py1nM

In the "SR3 v2 Snes Back" image you can see how they almost left one pin unsoldered, what a mess, at least that is fixed too :) . Thanks again Ace for your help.

PD: There is some know clones with Noacs that Zapper don't work?, or incompatibility between region (Pal Zapper in a Ntsc system)?. See ya.

Amakyusa
07-07-2017, 02:32 PM
Hi! I'm new to this forum so I can't post new threads yet.
And this one seems to be the most techwise advanced about the retro trio and I have a question about some issues I'm having with it.

I bought one here in Brazil and changed the resistors from audio amplifier in the snes part and added the pull down resistors back in the cartridge slot as well. Did this two modifications cause I bought a super gameboy adaptor and out of the box the snes sound was ridiculous.

Well, I bought a sd2snes and noticed something very weird I couldnt find anywhere else: When playing super metroid, both the buttons A a B when pressed register as A+B. The same happens to buttons X and Y. Both registers as X + Y.

So, just for testing purposes, I put the sd2snes in a real snes I have and with the same metroid rom and same controller too, the game works fine. Just to clarify, so far this happens only with Super Metroid rom.

Thx for any ideas.

EDIT1: Oh! And hello to all! I've been reading you guys posting for a long time. Finally now I'm able to thx the awesome work and knowledge you have been sharing.

SquallDark
07-14-2017, 03:42 AM
Hi.


Hi! I'm new to this forum so I can't post new threads yet.
And this one seems to be the most techwise advanced about the retro trio and I have a question about some issues I'm having with it.

I bought one here in Brazil and changed the resistors from audio amplifier in the snes part and added the pull down resistors back in the cartridge slot as well. Did this two modifications cause I bought a super gameboy adaptor and out of the box the snes sound was ridiculous.

Well, I bought a sd2snes and noticed something very weird I couldnt find anywhere else: When playing super metroid, both the buttons A a B when pressed register as A+B. The same happens to buttons X and Y. Both registers as X + Y.

So, just for testing purposes, I put the sd2snes in a real snes I have and with the same metroid rom and same controller too, the game works fine. Just to clarify, so far this happens only with Super Metroid rom.

Thx for any ideas.

EDIT1: Oh! And hello to all! I've been reading you guys posting for a long time. Finally now I'm able to thx the awesome work and knowledge you have been sharing.

Yep, first days when I was testing my PAL carts I noticed this issue too, both (Japan, USA) rom in my EverDrive and my original SNSP-RI-ESP cart do the same thing in the SR3, then decide to try a original SNES controller and works well, so... for some reason SR3 and her own controller v2 (this new ones with SNES port) don't understand well with Super Metroid. See ya.

Amakyusa
07-17-2017, 05:19 PM
Hi.



Yep, first days when I was testing my PAL carts I noticed this issue too, both (Japan, USA) rom in my EverDrive and my original SNSP-RI-ESP cart do the same thing in the SR3, then decide to try a original SNES controller and works well, so... for some reason SR3 and her own controller v2 (this new ones with SNES port) don't understand well with Super Metroid. See ya.


Yes. After you mentioned it, I tried with the SNES original controller and It worked....weird stuff. Thanks!

SquallDark
07-19-2017, 01:30 AM
Hi. Hey Amakyusa, is it possible that you can try a Zapper on your SR3 unit?, for some reason my model NES-005 (I do not know if they are different from those of other regions, although I only see the same model in all) does not work on my SR3, not even a Zapper model manufactured by RetroBit works.

The console receives the trigger signal, the selection moves work and even the screen flashes but there is no action response (when you point to the screen), all this tested in a CRT Trinitron 60Hz fully compatible (PAL system works).

I think there may be something strange about how the ports of controllers behave, and it must be because of the changes they made in these, but it is not clear yet.