Old NTSC Toshiba TV with strange RGB input???

[lynchesque]

I was at a local game store today and saw an early 90's toshiba tv with 3 RCA inputs and 1 weird RGB input that I've never seen before:
http://nfggames.com/forum/uploads/post-5-1160454144.jpg

I googled it and found that hitachi made one as well (same as picture) and that the input can be either digital, analog, or both. Anyone ever try making a cable to hook up a console to one of these? Be nice to have tv around capable of displaying rgb w/o a converter etc. I never knew they made these in the US (outside of computer monitors).

[evildragon]

It's a japanese RGB connector.. Pretty standard there...

[Joe Redifer]

Do they have UHF and VHF in Japan?

[evildragon]

Do they have UHF and VHF in Japan?
Don't know. They don't have much blast processing though.

Even on a US released TV, they might have kept the connector.. I think this connector was "pre-SCART"... As the very first Sony Trinitron CRT had one I believe..

[lynchesque]

The TV is definately a US model, I looked it over thoroughly.

It has LED lights on the front which indicate whether the RGB or RCA inputs are engaged; even has a built in amplifier for adding exterior speakers. It's about a 21" and only $30 so I think I'll pick it up and try to fashion a cable for it from an extra genesis SCART lead that I just received...

...given that I can find a old plug like this somewhere (japan if necessary). I just wish I could know for sure if the RGB connector is indeed ANALOG before I take it home.

[evildragon]

It's without a doubt the Japanese RGB connector, that I know for sure.. Doesn't matter if it's a US model, it can still contain the port as a left over, as most of the circuitry remains the same, just a different black level for NTSC on ours...

I don't know if it's TTL or analog though...

[Rusty Venture]

I wish I had a TV that had RGB.

All I ever ended up getting was a NTSC/PAL multiscan TV.

[Joe Redifer]

I'm quite sure it's an analog connector. You paid premiums for a digital anything back in the day. I guess you'd just need to probe the RGB lines from your Genesis with some loose wires to make a pin configuration diagram.

[evildragon]

http://nfggames.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=2260

Sorry Joe, it's Digital... Lawrence knows best! ;)

[Joe Redifer]

Lawrence doesn't know everything, even if you think he does. He may be right, but why would a digital RGB jack have an H-PHASE and BRIGHT analog adjustments right next to the jack? You could adjust overall brightness with the TV, and digital should have perfect phasing. Like he said himself, there are no standards for an RGB jack in the US, so you can't tell WTF it is just by looking at it.

[evildragon]

(i was being sarcastic.. you know, like how you do)

[Joe Redifer]

Gotcha. :)

[lynchesque]

I picked up the tv today for $30. It has a really nice/crisp picture for an SDTV; perfect for playing shmups in tate. Numerous dials are located on the side for sharpness, tint, etc; + a "pull on" brightness knob for CATV (cable) & a contrast pull on/ABC knob; I have no idea what this is???

It has three video channels: all are RGB or RCA. An RGB button switches between the two on any input channel when depressed.

The led's on the front indicate whether RGB, ABC, and MSSS are on. Again, I have no idea what ABC or MSSS is.

The Toshiba is a 1987 US Model # CZ2074. Can't find any info or a service manual for it. Nor can I find a proper pinout for the RGB connecter (EIAJ). There are diagrams like this one:

http://www.experimentaltvcenter.org/history/images/preservationcom/8pin2.jpg

but they are for VTR (video tape recorders) not RGB. I know that this connector transmits RGB on a few old-school computer monitors and on this TV since it specifies it...Tecnec makes a plug for the input:

http://www.tecnec.com/productImage/BIG/E8M.JPG

The popular Sony PVM-2530 also uses this connection, it's specified and has a close-up pick of the connector at the bottom of this page. (http://www.bcs.tv/store/model_detail.cfm?id=5062)

Before ordering the plug, I could just try jamming the genesis R, G, B, wires (with some solder on the ends to stiffen them up like pins) into the EIAJ plug on the tv until I get a picture (if it's ANALOG). What other wires do I connect exactly to get RGB??? Just one sync and ground etc? I'm in the dark on this aspect.

[Joe Redifer]

You might need the composite video line for the SYNC. So if you get an unsteady picture, try switching between sync and composite video from the Genesis on that same line. But I'd be doing exactly what you suggest.

[lynchesque]

I'm getting a picture by trying various pin combinations but it varies from pure green to red etc. A couple times I got an an image that looks like the colors are combined right but it's not bright enough and indecipherable.

Can you get a signal in analog RGB by just hooking up one R, G, or B at a time? I can't seem to get an image of any kind without plugging in multiple pins simultaneously. Would I get a picture at all if the input was digital?

[evildragon]

It really sounds like it's digital.

Analog doesn't need all 3, the picture would just have a tint.. (with red and green only, picture goes "yellowish"...) With a digital system, you also need an intensity bit...

[Joe Redifer]

You will need at least a sync signal along with a color, and ground.

[evildragon]

well yea, but he got a picture, albeit faint.. doesn't that mean he atleast found the sync? (as the picture isn't going wacko)

[lynchesque]

I got fucking sick of messing with the tv and wanted a quick fix so I chose an alternate route...I opened up the genesis II and to my surprise it contained the Sony CXA1645m chip, which is uncommon. Can't believe I didn't check it sooner.

Did the S-Video Mod in about an hour and a half; holy shit it looks good! RGB is just gonna have to wait for while. I have a CRT TV that supports 480i, 480p, and 1080i natively via multiple inputs so it handles everything from the 16-Bit era up (no bullshit upscaling). The S-Video is money for now.

I attached the s-video plug on the side and am using the Sega CD for sound.

http://img143.imageshack.us/img143/38/ebaysales006xf4.jpg

I took this pic of SOR 2 while testing (the genesis is taken apart on the left but it's hard to see).

http://img250.imageshack.us/img250/7780/ebaysalesnl8.jpg

[evildragon]

I see upscaling in that image of yours. ;) It's double-pixeled, as it's upscaling the 240p, to 540p, which is the fixed res mode of a 1080i CRT...

[Joe Redifer]

The Genesis doesn't run in 480i, it runs in 240p. It will be interpreted as interlaced and converted into 480i by your TV. And your TV is still likely upscaling the 480i signal to 1080i. That's just the way HDTVs work. Notice how 480i on your HDTV does not look like 480i on an SDTV.

[evildragon]

The Genesis doesn't run in 480i, it runs in 240p. It will be interpreted as interlaced and converted into 480i by your TV. And your TV is still likely upscaling the 480i signal to 1080i. That's just the way HDTVs work. Notice how 480i on your HDTV does not look like 480i on an SDTV.
Some HDTV's upscale to 1080i, and some, including mine, upscale to 540p, which is just 1080i without the interlacing bit..

[Joe Redifer]

I know 1080i TVs run in 540p for devices that output 480p, but the CRT gun shoots so the picture is too big and you get approximately 480 progressive lines or so on the screen. I can make my TV do this with interlaced signals and whatnot, but there is no reason to as it looks worse.

[evildragon]

mine doesn't do that... it will actually draw all 540 lines, doing that small upscaling.. for 480p it doesn't though, only for 480i, perhaps for overscanning or something, i don't know..

[Joe Redifer]

So you have black bars on the top and bottom?

[lynchesque]

You two like to argue don't you. Notice the back and forth throughout this thread. I appreciate the input though and thank you.

All I know is that when I get into the TV's service man menu it shows whether the TV is running in 480i, 480p, or 1080i (of course that could just mean the signal that is being inputed). It won't let you change all of the parameters (VPOS/VAMP/HLIN etc or whatever, I not looking at it right now) unless a 1080i signal is present via the HDMI connection.

Now I'll admit I'm probably wrong about the non-upscaling comment, but I need to do more research to know exactly how this model operates. I based my comment on an assuption, not a good idea. I'm not an f'n tv expert, but I doubt that all HDTV work the same in this regard.

[Joe Redifer]

What model is your TV?

[lynchesque]

It's a Panasonic TAU. The Manual says "DIGITAL SCAN RATE-1080i, 480p". Also note that in the pic I had the picture stretched ("just mode") when it should have to set to the 4:3 mode. It also says "NTSC LINE DOUBLER-480p".

[evildragon]

Lynch, we weren't arguing...

Joe: No, actually when in 480i, the top and bottom get cut off, and in 480p, it "just fits".

[Joe Redifer]

So 480 lines somehow "just fit" in the space of 540 without any black space?

[evildragon]

So 480 lines somehow "just fit" in the space of 540 without any black space?
yes, because in 480p, the TV adjusts the vertical size quite high, so you don't see the black overscan area..

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about in my earlier post.

[evildragon]

Yeah, that's what I was talking about in my earlier post.
ok then, yes.. you just don't see it because the TV compensates it..

And actually, I just realized I had it backwards..

480i is drawn with 480 lines on a 540 image, and 480p is drawn as a 540p image..

And technically, the TV doesn't adjust it's V-Size, because 480p seems to have worse overscan on the vertical, than 480i.. Like on a digital TV broadcast in 480, you can just BARELY see the V-Blank data at the top of the screen.. where in 480p, it's covered up completely...

I don't know why the TV can just sample screens the same for 480i and 480p...

[ThunderForce]

Damn, I need a RGB TV!

[lilmul123]

I JUST WANTED TO READ ABOUT RGB!