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KnightWarrior
11-17-2007, 06:57 PM
I think it would be possible on the Sega CD..But the Colors on sceen going to take a hit...what do you think

Joe Redifer
11-17-2007, 07:28 PM
Yeah. Otherwise it would be identical, but with less flicker.

j_factor
11-17-2007, 07:31 PM
Maybe they could add some parallax.

Joe Redifer
11-17-2007, 07:34 PM
Already plenty of parallax in the game.

tomaitheous
11-17-2007, 09:09 PM
Rondo of Blood design is great, but it hardly pushes any color around. Most screen shots are in the 50-60 color range on average. Come to think of it, it does look like more like a Genesis game regarding color scheme.

awack
11-17-2007, 10:30 PM
Rondo of bloods onscreen colors is similar to Lords of thunder, infact there are a couple of areas in rondo that have more colors than any area that i could find in lords of thunder, rondo is one of the few pc engine games that have more than 100 onscreen colors.

Rondo is my fav game and i would love to see what it would be like on the sega cd.

Sega-17
11-17-2007, 10:44 PM
I challenge someone to port it.

tomaitheous
11-17-2007, 11:11 PM
Rondo of bloods onscreen colors is similar to Lords of thunder, infact there are a couple of areas in rondo that have more colors than any area that i could find in lords of thunder, rondo is one of the few pc engine games that have more than 100 onscreen colors.

Rondo is my fav game and i would love to see what it would be like on the sega cd.

I love the game too (bought brand new when it first came out), but I haven't seen any screen shots that push over 100 colors. I have quite a handful of snap shots and most of them are in the low 60's with a few in the 70s and one in the 80s.


I challenge someone to port it.

I challenge *you* ! Hah.

KnightWarrior
11-17-2007, 11:11 PM
I challenge someone to port it.

I would love a port on it now..But those old farts at Konami goinng to have feel day sueing the pants off who ever tries it

Joe Redifer
11-17-2007, 11:27 PM
Keep in mind that even if the game only ever put 50 colors on screen at once, it is not likely the Genesis could match it. The Turbo has a lot more different palette configurations to choose from than the Genesis does. It would be very difficult to match, and the Genesis version would likely be much darker.

evildragon
11-17-2007, 11:42 PM
Keep in mind that even if the game only ever put 50 colors on screen at once, it is not likely the Genesis could match it. The Turbo has a lot more different palette configurations to choose from than the Genesis does. It would be very difficult to match, and the Genesis version would likely be much darker.
It is possible to make the game look brighter. The colors are there, besides, Highlight comes in handy for that.

KnightWarrior
11-18-2007, 12:38 AM
it would be almost like the PC-Engine version with the Music

awack
11-18-2007, 01:32 AM
http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q13/awack/CD_072EAB00-049.pnghttp://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q13/awack/CD_072EAB00-040.png

I was trying to get high color counts when i took these, they both have 101 colors, by doing an item crash you can get the colors even higher.

evildragon
11-18-2007, 01:44 AM
The PC Engine has got to have the best graphics ever to grace 8-bits.

Joe Redifer
11-18-2007, 05:09 AM
And it beat the Genesis on most accounts in the graphics department as well. It didn't have the second BG layer, unfortunately and it did have fewer sprites. But it beat it on color and resolution for sure!

Aarzak
11-18-2007, 06:19 AM
Both were versatile, flexible monsters when in the hands of the right people. The Sneeze was was almost the exact opposite of the Politically Correct Engine and the Genius in that it had all of the bells and whistles hardware by default, and in conjunction with 'dem chips worked around it's slow processor. So while the PCE and the Genny were small, working-class machines that busted their ass to get to where they got, the SNES was a lazy, spoiled brat who leeched off it's "parents" resources and often indulged in DSPs and C4.

So the CD-ROM really didn't add any extra hardware or horsepower to the PCE, meaning that Rob was powered by vanilla PCE hardware? Preposterous!

If that's the case then the SCD could easily handle a port of Rob. But that color palette will never cease to piss me off. Why did they think they could possibly get away with that by the late '80's? They had tons 'o money to fork over for those state-of-the-art arcade boards, but skimped on the Mega Drive.

tomaitheous
11-18-2007, 12:03 PM
And it beat the Genesis on most accounts in the graphics department as well. It didn't have the second BG layer, unfortunately and it did have fewer sprites. But it beat it on color and resolution for sure!

Yeah 64 vs 80 sprites per screen, but it did have larger max sprites - 32x64 vs 32x32. The area where the Genesis is nice is that the sprite size is configurable from 8x8 blocks(being the smallest sprite), where as the PCE is from 16x16 sprites(being the smallest). That means Sonic 48x48 sprite would take up 64x64 on the PCE, wasting space and pushing the system closer to the scanline limit - i.e. flicker. Both systems are the same in regards to sprite pixels to screen width limit per scanline.

The SGX....

Awack: Damn, I had snap shots from that area too. Nice.

Joe Redifer
11-18-2007, 01:57 PM
The CD-ROM for the PC Engine added an ADPCM channel. Also, the sprites-per-scanline on the Genesis differ depending on what resolution it is running in.

tomaitheous
11-18-2007, 02:44 PM
The CD-ROM for the PC Engine added an ADPCM channel. Also, the sprites-per-scanline on the Genesis differ depending on what resolution it is running in.

Yeah, the number of "sprites" per scanline, but not the ratio of pixels per scanline. There are two limits. On both systems it's either: the number of sprites on a single scanline or the scanline pixel limit. For the Genesis that means 16 sprites or 256 pixles of sprite data (visible sprite pixels or not) for 256 res mode- whatever comes first, and 20 sprites or 320 pixels (visible pixels or not) for 320 res mode - whatever comes first. On the PCE it's the same as the Genesis 256 res mode, but doesn't scale for 352 res mode or 512 res mode (for SGX it's 32 sprites or 512 pixels for all modes). It gets tricky :D

Sega-17
11-18-2007, 05:57 PM
Already plenty of parallax in the game.


it's the weird PCengine parallax.:p

Even then, whenever you saw any kind of parallax in a pc engine game, you knew it was special (ie, Konami).

tomaitheous
11-18-2007, 06:35 PM
it's the weird PCengine parallax.:p

Even then, whenever you saw any kind of parallax in a pc engine game, you knew it was special (ie, Konami).

Special like Spriggan Mark 2, Gate of Thunder, Lords of Thunder, Magical Chase, TerraForming, Super Darius, Super Darius 2, Paranoia, Shubibiman(Overhauled Man) 3, Godzilla, Sapphire, Genocide, Download 2, Cotton, Cho Aniki, Ai Cho Aniki, Air Zonk, Valis IV, ShapeShifter, Legend of Xanadu, Shadow of the Beast, Riot Zone.... kind of special? :p

KnightWarrior
11-18-2007, 07:05 PM
I just know the Sega CD could Mimic the Soundtrack..Can it

Joe Redifer
11-18-2007, 07:15 PM
Ummm, yeah. Kind of like how an RCA CD player can mimic the sound of a Phillips CD player. The in-game voices might be better, though, as the Sega CD PCM sound is far better than the Turbo's ADPCM. Not sure how much memory the Turbo has for sound compared to the Sega CD.

Also, the parallax is great. Sure, it can cause some flicker at times since sprites MUST be used. If a Sega CD version existed, a second real BG layer could take the place of the sprites, thus less flicker. They should have done this with the Lords of Thunder conversion, but I'm not convinced that they did.

awack
11-18-2007, 07:19 PM
I just know the Sega CD could Mimic the Soundtrack..Can it

Since they are both cd systems i see no reason why it would not be a perfect translation.

oops, just saw joe's response.

ThunderForce
11-18-2007, 07:25 PM
Special like Spriggan Mark 2, Gate of Thunder, Lords of Thunder, Magical Chase, TerraForming, Super Darius, Super Darius 2, Paranoia, Shubibiman(Overhauled Man) 3, Godzilla, Sapphire, Genocide, Download 2, Cotton, Cho Aniki, Ai Cho Aniki, Air Zonk, Valis IV, ShapeShifter, Legend of Xanadu, Shadow of the Beast, Riot Zone.... kind of special? :p

The only good shmups in that list are:

Gate of Thunder
Lords of Thunder
Magical Chase
Sapphire
Ai Cho Aniki

Joe Redifer
11-18-2007, 07:28 PM
You don't think Riot Zone is a good shmup? You do know that it's a SegaŽ arcade game, right? Valis 4 is a good shmup.

tomaitheous
11-18-2007, 07:40 PM
The only good shmups in that list are:

Gate of Thunder
Lords of Thunder
Magical Chase
Sapphire
Ai Cho Aniki


Umm... that was in response to Sega-17 and his comment about scrolls and how rare(or special) they were on PCE/CD games. Where did the shump thing come in from? Also, don't forget parodius hucard for scrolls and a good shump ;)

j_factor
11-18-2007, 09:42 PM
The only good shmups in that list are:

Gate of Thunder
Lords of Thunder
Magical Chase
Sapphire
Ai Cho Aniki

You are such a closet case. :p

KnightWarrior
11-21-2007, 06:35 PM
When did shooters come in to play..

Dirt Ball Gamer
12-12-2007, 12:54 AM
I just got this a couple weeks ago on pc engine, and its the game Ive been playing lately, well besides gate of thunder and lethal inforces 2 gunfighterz. I'd heard a lot about this game and it hasn't disappointed yet, still like bloodlines though. I can't decide if this is better than the saturn game or not, as my friend has that and it looks crazy pimp tight but lots of super dashing and flying uppercuts and levels huge enough to be from metroid. I still prefer the classic gameplay of this one though.

Black_Tiger
02-10-2008, 06:20 PM
I think that the color schemes in Drac X PCE are very Genesis friendly and a similar looking game could be done on Sega-CD, with very little detail/shading lost if they tailor it for the Genesis pallete instead of trying to replicate the PCE version as closely as they did with Lords of Thunder.

They are likely many things in the game that are easier for the PCE to do that could be replaced with things that the Genesis does better. There's no reason for a port to try aim for perfect reproduction over maximizing it for the target console.

Really, the NES could do a decent port too, like its amazing Ys III conversion. But most games on Genesis and PC Engine are fairly interchangable.

KnightWarrior
02-13-2008, 06:19 PM
Someone could do it on the Sega CD, But Konami has something to say if someone ports it

KnightWarrior
03-16-2012, 01:39 AM
4 year bump..for new peeps

Just port it on the 32X CD...using the 32X colors

sheath
03-16-2012, 09:26 AM
That's what I thought they were doing for the 32X Castlevania, but internet rumors suggest it was actually going to be a proto-Symphony of the Night. Rondo of Blood already is that though, so I'm not sure it was going to be different. Since this is Konami we are talking about though, what the 32X actually would have gotten is a straight port of the SNES game on a smaller ROM with level cuts and palette swap levels. Oh, and all pastels would be replaced by the color grey.

Melf
03-16-2012, 09:41 AM
And there would be massive slowdown and flicker!

sheath
03-16-2012, 10:29 AM
Hah, that would have been a neat trick, they would have had to create SH-2 code to simulate sprite drop out!

Aarzak
03-16-2012, 11:00 AM
Don't confuse Konami with Capcom; the former showed love to the Genesis, albeit not as much as they did with the SNES. Look at what they did with RKA, Bloodlines and Hard Corps. They didn't just port over their most popular game and call it a day like Capcom did. Who knows what they could've done with 32X.

sheath
03-16-2012, 11:16 AM
I was more thinking of their "efforts" with Sunset Riders and Hyperstone Heist. Hard Corps and Bloodlines have to be using the least optimized palettes for the Genesis of any game in the library save Populous. These were what I was thinking of when I said they'd replace all pastels with the color grey. ;)

Guntz
03-16-2012, 12:31 PM
That's what I thought they were doing for the 32X Castlevania, but internet rumors suggest it was actually going to be a proto-Symphony of the Night. Rondo of Blood already is that though, so I'm not sure it was going to be different. Since this is Konami we are talking about though, what the 32X actually would have gotten is a straight port of the SNES game on a smaller ROM with level cuts and palette swap levels. Oh, and all pastels would be replaced by the color grey.

That canceled port was called "Castlevania: [The] Bloodletting".

TVC 15
03-16-2012, 01:03 PM
I'm still shocked Konami did'nt capitalise on Rondo's lack of western availability and port it over to the Sega CD, since the add-ons attach rate was quite reasonable in the US, surely the $$ signs should have been in Konami's eyes. But then quite a few larger mainstream 3rd parties would'nt touch Sega with a barge pole, and even when they did the quality wasn't all quite there. Rocket Night withstanding Castlevania Bloodlines could have been much better and was rushed with a paltry sized cart, but its still very enjoyable nonetheless.

Rondo would have been a doddle on the Sega CD, what twice the ram of the Super PC-Engines 256KB at 512KB and TWO processors. The only issue would have been pallete and colour wich could have easily been worked around. Hey lets even throw in some gimmicky Mode-7 since Konami was so fond of it with Super Castlevania since the Sega/Mega CD can do that as well!

WE HAV A WEANER

TrekkiesUnite118
03-16-2012, 01:21 PM
If I remember correctly someone mentioned a while back that NEC had some kind of licensing agreement with it that prevented a direct port from being possible. The only reason the SNES one happened was because it was pretty much a different game.

sheath
03-16-2012, 01:43 PM
Konami set up a special division exclusively for PCE CD development around the same time that Sega was creating its US studio for the Sega CD. I think Konami was heavily invested in the PCE CD and Nintendo platforms, or whoever had the most sales in Japan at any given time.

NeoVamp
03-17-2012, 05:52 PM
Just port it on the 32X CD...using the 32X colors

You do not seem to grasp the concept of "porting"

without the source code there is nothing to port, this is fact and saying "just port it" won't magically make a source code appear.

It would be the ultimate game to have though.. maybe someday someone skilled enough will reverse engineer the Castlevania Bloodlines games,
then at least there'd be a castlevania engine available, with some tinkering the game would be possible on the Genesis/SegaCD.

I've been watching playthroughs on youtube, even though it would require some tinkering/cutting I think most of the levels could be converted without too much loss.

sheath
03-17-2012, 05:59 PM
Somebody could video playing through the entire PCE-CD game and convert that to about twenty or thirty Sega CD FMV disks though. That would be about as close to a source port we could get.

Also, in an infinite number of possible scenarios I can imagine one where somebody came up with a box, lets call it majik, that can make any game instantly transfer all code to another platform.

tomaitheous
03-17-2012, 07:05 PM
Bill Gates told Sega, "Four subpalettes is all anyone ever needs.."

crazyteknohed
03-18-2012, 09:42 AM
Special like Spriggan Mark 2, Gate of Thunder, Lords of Thunder, Magical Chase, TerraForming, Super Darius, Super Darius 2, Paranoia, Shubibiman(Overhauled Man) 3, Godzilla, Sapphire, Genocide, Download 2, Cotton, Cho Aniki, Ai Cho Aniki, Air Zonk, Valis IV, ShapeShifter, Legend of Xanadu, Shadow of the Beast, Riot Zone.... kind of special? :p

That's about 0.1% of the entire PCE library!

Curryman123
03-18-2012, 08:20 PM
Yep, colors would be sacrificed, but the developers would benefit from multi-layer scrolling.

For example, they can add a scrolling background to the dungeon level, and the swamp level.

Also they can take advantage of the Sonic-ish water transparency effects, Especially in the bridge level.

Black_Tiger
03-18-2012, 08:28 PM
Yep, colors would be sacrificed, but the developers would benefit from multi-layer scrolling.

For example, they can add a scrolling background to the dungeon level, and the swamp level.

Also they can take advantage of the Sonic-ish water transparency effects, Especially in the bridge level.

Future games in the series like SotN didn't use parallax for most indoor sections similar to the dungeon stage in Dracula X. It would have been super easy to do in the PCE version if they'd wanted to. Outdoor sections without any kind of parallax probably would have received some extra scrolling though. Tiny bits of flicker could be eliminated by moving large static sprites to a tile layer.



That's about 0.1% of the entire PCE library!

Lol, that's like 0.1% of the PCE games which feature parallax!

KnightWarrior
03-20-2012, 02:36 AM
You do not seem to grasp the concept of "porting"

without the source code there is nothing to port, this is fact and saying "just port it" won't magically make a source code appear.

It would be the ultimate game to have though.. maybe someday someone skilled enough will reverse engineer the Castlevania Bloodlines games,
then at least there'd be a castlevania engine available, with some tinkering the game would be possible on the Genesis/SegaCD.

I've been watching playthroughs on youtube, even though it would require some tinkering/cutting I think most of the levels could be converted without too much loss.

The only company has the source code is Konami

Curryman123
03-20-2012, 04:01 AM
you got that right

NeoVamp
03-20-2012, 12:59 PM
The only company has the source code is Konami

So when you said "just port it to the 32x" you were telling Konami to port a game of their own to an hardly used add on for a long since dead console?

aah ok now it makes sense!

TrekkiesUnite118
03-20-2012, 01:04 PM
I remember years ago there was apparently a fan made port to the PC, but I think that might have just ended up being a glorified emulator.

But would it really be that hard to recreate the game from scratch. I know it's pretty much the rule of homebrew that no source = no port, but the game isn't really that ridiculously sophisticated that a recreation on the Sega CD by fans wouldn't be too out of reach. At it's core, it's just a simple 2D side-scrolling platformer.

tomaitheous
03-20-2012, 02:24 PM
but the game isn't really that ridiculously sophisticated that a recreation on the Sega CD by fans wouldn't be too out of reach. At it's core, it's just a simple 2D side-scrolling platformer.

Hah, that made me laugh :D

TrekkiesUnite118
03-20-2012, 02:30 PM
If you cared about complete accuracy to enemy placement and what not it would be. But if you only cared about it looking and playing like Rondo of Blood, it wouldn't be that hard to build your own side scroller engine for it. You can study the game to figure out damage and how movement should work. With that info you can pretty much turn your side scroller engine into a Castlevania engine. From that point on it's a matter of putting game data into it.

While there is some more work involved than porting the original source code, it wouldn't be that difficult to build an accurate recreation of the game.

sheath
03-20-2012, 02:59 PM
I'm noticing a distinct lack of homebrew sidescrollers that are ground up rewritten with all of the physics and enemy AI of hardcore side scrollers like Rondo of Blood. For some reason, even indie developers using the incredibly over powered Unreal 3 engine can't seem to keep the gameplay mechanics of these kinds of games straight. If it were so easy to replicate a game, we would see real game replicants out there. Instead, all we have is Super Mario Bros. for Genesis running off the source code, and everything else is different or inferior.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-20-2012, 03:08 PM
I think it comes down to how much the developer cares.

StarMist
03-20-2012, 03:47 PM
I think it comes down to how much the developer cares.
And talent. Just cz somebody or a small group of them knows how to code doesn't mean he has any imagination or even the reconstructive talent needed for high quality imitation, all it means is that he has a knowledge of code and likes the idea of making a game. Ambition too is pretty much ruled out as most people with it will have striven to join a professional outfit of developers (commercial or indie) and will continue striving rather than crippling his ideas with second rate resources. With talent and ambition that's two exceptions needed right there besides all the circumstantial stuff to make things right, such as leisure/money, tools, codecs/dev kits/source code...the improbabilities just add up.

@ topic = Would it be any more feasible just to use the source code from an earlier (more accessible) Castlevania and then build on that?

sheath
03-20-2012, 03:53 PM
I think there are a number of factors to consider. For programmers there are dozens of more languages to choose from today than back in the day, and many are much much much MUCH much much easier than coding for an old 8-bit or 16-bit game console. Then there is the factor of figuring out what the developer did, which is a project in and of itself even if you have direct access to the source code. For example, I can code in HTML, CSS and PHP just fine, but I find working with other people's codes complicated to the point of being a waste.

j_factor
03-20-2012, 04:33 PM
Coding in HTML is not really coding. ;)

sheath
03-20-2012, 07:05 PM
Coding in HTML is not really coding. ;)

Sure isn't, that's why I had to move on to CSS and PHP too. For a while I could code in Ansi C and C++ and these are not that much different. Assembly language is totally foreign to me though.

tomaitheous
03-20-2012, 11:41 PM
If you cared about complete accuracy to enemy placement and what not it would be. But if you only cared about it looking and playing like Rondo of Blood, it wouldn't be that hard to build your own side scroller engine for it. You can study the game to figure out damage and how movement should work. With that info you can pretty much turn your side scroller engine into a Castlevania engine. From that point on it's a matter of putting game data into it.

While there is some more work involved than porting the original source code, it wouldn't be that difficult to build an accurate recreation of the game.

It appears to be simple at first glance, but once you've actually tried writing a game - there are a ton of little things that add up. Fine tuning a game engine is the biggest part IMO. And when you mention 'porting', you're talking about replicating everything - including AI of the enemies, etc. If you just loosely approximate it to the real game, people are gonna complain for sure. I'm just saying there's a lot of work behind the scenes that you don't realize, just because it appears to be a simple 2D game engine. The sum of its parts is the result of the complication in replication process. It would way easier to just design a 2D game from scratch and make it your own. You make the AI and everything else. Nobody can complain or nitpick the differences from its original (since it is the original).

Working with source is much-much easier. Yeah, you have the task of converting it to another system and different cpu, but all the TOP level game logic is done for you. I personally think the SMB4MD project is easier than writing SMB port from scratch (without any source code or disassembly). Of course, there's always exceptions. I'm sure there are some games that would be fairly easy to replicate without the source or just by studying the game mechanics while playing it. But I don't think Rondo would be one of them - IMO. Feel free to prove me wrong though. And I'm saying this all in general, 'cause you know there's always some insane dedicated coder out there to prove the exception.

That said, taking the bloodlines engine and hacking it up to do a 'remix' of Rondo for the Genesis and/or SegaCD would be pretty cool. You wouldn't have to worry about specifically replicating everything minor detail or AI of Rondo. Just a version of it. Maybe take some assets/queues from both the SNES version too. And maybe a little SOTN stuff too (but keep the game linear-ish like the original Rondo, but more alternate stages). Until you find that super driven coder to do all of this, it ain't gonna happen. Sadly.

TrekkiesUnite118
03-21-2012, 10:15 AM
I have worked on making games before, I do realize there's tons of hard work in them behind the scenes. The AI is pretty much what would be the hardest bit to replicate, but you could also go the route of not replicating each bit of it exactly and add new behaviors to bosses and enemies to make it a bit more interesting, while still keeping the look and feel of Rondo of Blood.

Graphics, Sound, Level Layout, and the physics for Richter and Maria wouldn't be that hard to recreate. That you can figure out from studying the game. It's the enemy AI and placement that would become tedious and difficult quickly. Though considering the fanbase of Castlevania, I wouldn't surprised if there's fan analysis' of enemies and how they behave.

I'm not saying it would be a walk in the park, just that it could in fact be doable.