Sonic 3 + Michael Jackson?! [Archive]

Drixxel

09-05-2005, 09:10 PM

http://www.sws2b.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=5270

"Sonic 3 (also called Sonic & Knuckles) was a lot of fun, but it was also very difficult. Michael Jackson was originally brought in to compose all the music for the game, but at the very end, his work was dropped after his scandals became public. This caused a lot of problems and required a lot of reworking. But the game turned out great in the end."

I wonder if Jackson's original Sonic 3 soundtrack was stored away somewhere.. that would be a highly curious listen.

Genesis Knight

09-06-2005, 03:38 PM

Bizarro.

Genesis Knight

09-06-2005, 03:39 PM

But thrilling.

Drixxel

09-06-2005, 07:56 PM

I've never particularly been one for ol' Jackson's music, but I really would like to hear his Sonic 3 soundtrack. With a completely different musical score, I wonder how it would impact the Sonic 3 experience.

hadjiquest

09-18-2005, 06:25 PM

Jacko was gonna compose for Sonic 3?

Drixxel

09-18-2005, 09:05 PM

That's the story, hadjquest. He's apparantly a big Sonic the Hedgehog fan and somehow worked out a deal with Sega to compose the soundtrack for Sonic 3. Rumour has it a good number of tracks had been completed, but due to the scandal at the time Sega canned Jackson's Sonic 3 works. No record of them exists today, as the story goes..

Boopop

08-17-2006, 06:37 PM

Sorry to bring up an old topic, but look! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbVM-l2Oku4

Evidence that MJ's music is still part of sonic 3 despite the scandal.

Elusive

08-17-2006, 06:50 PM

I'm still of the opinion the sound team of Sonic 3 were inspired by Jackson - not directly working with him in the sense 'hey Jacko, come and record some funky beats for our new Sonic game plz'. What hard evidence other than a few chords sounding the same - generic, well-used chords at that - is there to back all this up?

jtull89

08-17-2006, 07:46 PM

Mr Smith

08-18-2006, 06:30 AM

I never knew any of that, although I always thought the Launch Base "Go" sounded a bit like Jackson.

Ash

08-18-2006, 01:39 PM

No wonder Sonic 3 sucked.

XMARLTONX

08-18-2006, 05:54 PM

Some of the songs do sound like Jackson watching that video. I believe theres something to the rumor.

Besides, MJ is awesome.

Elusive

08-18-2006, 07:46 PM

.... Umm... I dunno. I hear that when you play one of Jack's songs fast it sounds just like a certain Sonic 3 tune, not that that means anything. It sounds to me that Jackson fans that like Sonic are simply thinking wishfully/like conspiracy theories.

Like how you hear the Beatles saying 'Paul Is Dead' when you play their records backwards? The point is, if you listen expecting to hear MJ, you'll hear MJ.

Wishful thinking and coincidence, is all.

knicksfan89

07-25-2008, 12:59 PM

No wonder Sonic 3 sucked.

how dare you say that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! it was one of the defining megadrive games ever and his writing team wrote the soundtrack to the game

mick_aka

07-25-2008, 02:05 PM

Sonic 2 FTW! ;)

Cool vid though, lots of interesting points, I won't dispute that he was originally working on a soundtrack, but there's nothing anywhere near conclusive proof that any of the music remained in the game.

Mr. Ksoft

07-25-2008, 02:13 PM

This topic was just bumped from two years ago...
And there's no actual proof that he did anything.

ZJT

07-25-2008, 07:26 PM

No wonder Sonic 3 sucked.

Ah, but the real question is did it blow?

If it sucked and blew then that would be pretty conclusive evidence of Jacko input, right?

Patrick_

08-09-2008, 06:40 PM

You guys might want to take a look at the Sonic 3 Wikipedia article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonic_3#Music_controversy) that talks about the subject.

I was reading it a few days ago and saw that section. Pretty interesting stuff, I was pretty surprised to hear that MJ was involved (or was going to be).

TmEE

08-09-2008, 06:46 PM

Most of the songs in the game are done by Howard Drossin AFAIK...

S3+S&K is the ultimate MD gaming experience

Joe Redifer

08-09-2008, 07:27 PM

It's a shame the music wasn't done by the Japanese. Sonic 3 and Knuckles' music is so drab and sounds like a hollow piece of wood. It's as if Sega of America was jealous and wanted Sonic all its own. Sonic has gotten worse and worse with each game since the initial release. Yes, I like part 1 better than 2. And part 1 is only "pretty fun".

TmEE

08-09-2008, 07:38 PM

Sonic3 has the best music from the bunch....

Joe Redifer

08-09-2008, 08:01 PM

Not even. Some of it is decent, but it just sounds too scratchy, rough and muffled. I am not a big fan of Drossin, and Knuckles' music is clearly the worst of the bunch by leaps and bounds.

Patrick_

08-09-2008, 09:05 PM

Not even. Some of it is decent, but it just sounds too scratchy, rough and muffled. I am not a big fan of Drossin, and Knuckles' music is clearly the worst of the bunch by leaps and bounds.

I know what you mean. I think a lot of the beats are really cool but the quality isn't as good as in Sonic 1/2.

Melf

08-09-2008, 09:44 PM

Aarzak

08-09-2008, 09:46 PM

It happened with Genesis games later on in its life, as composers tried to make more elaborate, "fuller" music with the rapidly archaic Genesis sound suite. Also, I think that more Genesis games had their music composed with "GEMS" towards the last years as Japanese software development for the Genesis dipped drastically after 1994.

The Sports Guy

08-10-2008, 01:10 AM

Internet urban legend or not, I believe this is of utter importance to the discussion:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbVM-l2Oku4

Believe what you want to believe. I heard about this around a year and I buy into it but dont put much worth into it. Sonic 3 has really great music, very updated from the previous two Sonics.

Either way, it was pretty groundbreaking and really added to the game's experience. I loved it.

EDIT: didnt see that someone had already posted the video, but there it is if you didnt get it the first time!

Joe Redifer

08-10-2008, 05:17 AM

I hate that video because the guy is barely even understandable and sounds like he is about to enter a coma.

If anything, it proves plagiarism before it improves that MJ was involved in any way. That's right, just because some chords were similar does not mean that the original artist was involved in any way. If I used, for example, an OC ReMix of a Streets of Rage tune in a video I made, does that mean that Yuzo Koshiro secretly composed the music for my video under the shield of darkness?

Zebbe

08-10-2008, 06:06 AM

S3&K sounds waaay too good to be composed and produced by Americans, and still do S1 and S2 sound far better than S3&K. If Howard Drossin would have done the soundtrack by himself without Japanese (Project 2612 credits a bunch of Japanese people), they would have sounded like Sonic Spinball or Comix Zone, which they clearly don't.

Elusive

08-10-2008, 06:54 PM

I've spoken to a few higher ups at Sega, and they all debunk this story. After reading all the facts, I really don't think MJ had anything to do personally with Sonic 3. It's an Internet urban legend.

It's entirely possible that some faceless Sega programmer asked his daughter what some popular American pop artist sounded like. Or perhaps thought 'hey this guy on the radio sounds cool let's sample the hell out of him'. People would rather believe the SECRET CONSPIRACY theory, I guess, hence the Wikipedia article and awful, awful Youtube video.

Come on, don't everybody all jump on Howard Drossin. Comix Zone :)

Aarzak

08-10-2008, 07:32 PM

Japanese game developers, especially back in the late '80's-early '90's, were known to have been inspired by foreign music, in some cases even jack samples from them. We all know how Yuzo was inspired by foreign music and his compositions for "Revenge of Shinobi" and the first two SoR's, and his underrated soundtrack for "Super Adventure Island" on the SNES (which is very hip-hop/tropical based) on more than one occasion uses that James Brown "Yeah, Wooo!" sample made famous in the late '80's hip-hop song "It Takes Two" by Rob Base & DJ E-Z Rock (think of the intro to the crappy "Action 52" on the NES, yeah that one).

SNK also utilized lots of samples of American music in their Neo-Geo fighting games, specifically "The King of Fighters" (the '90's ones).

j_factor

08-10-2008, 07:55 PM

Comix Zone and The Ooze had wonderful soundtracks.

Rusty Venture

08-12-2008, 05:01 AM

Michael Jackson was awesome when he was black/still part black.

When we went pale white alien...it was all over.

p.s. "Smooth Criminal" = total musical jawusumness.

garyfoo182

08-30-2008, 07:09 PM

I wrote an article on this for my Student Union's magazine.
http://www.qmu.org.uk/images/qmunicate-2008-04-16.pdf
Page 16 i think

Haha.

Gary

probablee

08-31-2008, 03:15 PM

Sonic Cult made an mp3 available with Sonic 3's ending theme mixed with Stranger in Moscow a while back...

...ah, here it is! http://www.sonic-cult.org/dispart.php?catid=1&gameid=3&subid=2&artid=16

ooXxXoo

09-04-2008, 01:26 AM

Just beat it!.....beat it....beat it

ooXxXoo

09-04-2008, 01:57 AM

Michael Jackson was awesome when he was black/still part black.

When we went pale white alien...it was all over.

p.s. "Smooth Criminal" = total musical jawusumness.

I agree......
Until this day, I wonder how he did it....there are many theories.... Some sort of Laser skin burning treatment I suppose....

j_factor

09-04-2008, 02:08 AM

He has vitiligo, and wears makeup. That's it.

ooXxXoo

09-04-2008, 02:12 AM

Thats what they want you to believe.....

Don't believe the true!

Sergeant_Sega

09-05-2008, 05:16 PM

No wonder Sonic 3 sucked.

Heh...

I liked it :)

Melf

02-11-2009, 09:30 PM

Hmm, in the museum section of Sonic's Ultimate Genesis Collection, the Sonic 3 entry mentions that MJ was originally set to do the score - but says nothing else. So, he apparently was going to be involved at some point, but I doubt anything ever came of it. I'm thinking that if he ever was going to be involved, it never went past the discussion stage.

Silanda

02-11-2009, 11:18 PM

I'm thinking that if he ever was going to be involved, it never went past the discussion stage.

Research from back when this was discovered suggests that it went further than that. In the credits list for Sonic 3 there are unusual music composer credits: Brad Buxer, Bobby Brooks, Darryl Ross, Geoff Grace, Doug Grigsby III, and Scirocco.

What is strange about them? They are not video game composers, and at least some have worked with Michael Jackson.

Joe Redifer

02-11-2009, 11:34 PM

Please show evidence.

Rusty Venture

02-12-2009, 12:40 AM

Research from back when this was discovered suggests that it went further than that. In the credits list for Sonic 3 there are unusual music composer credits: Brad Buxer, Bobby Brooks, Darryl Ross, Geoff Grace, Doug Grigsby III, and Scirocco.

What is strange about them? They are not video game composers, and at least some have worked with Michael Jackson.

So a couple of guys who happened to work with MJ before that point did music on the game. How does this mean MJ did the music for Sonic 3?

Aarzak

02-12-2009, 04:05 AM

From Wikipedia:

When Questioned about Michael Jackson's involvement in February 2009, Yuji Naka evaded the question, joking "This information is on a need-to-know basis! [laughs more] One day, when the time comes, I will give you the information!"

Rusty Venture

02-12-2009, 05:16 AM

The combined efforts of Wikipedia and Yuji Naka have done little to shake my "skeptical" stance on the matter.

evildragon

02-12-2009, 06:58 AM

Isn't the "Come on" on the first boss stage MJ's voice?

Silanda

02-12-2009, 08:06 AM

Please show evidence.

This is Geoff Grace's homepage: http://homepage.mac.com/musicproduction/resume.html

As you can see, Michael Jackson is listed as someone who he has worked with. Plus, judging by the IMDB several of the others worked with Jackson. Scirocco is probably Cirocco whos page here: http://www.musicpowers.com/cirocco.html quite clearly states : "Cirocco’s projects include collaborating with “The King of Pop”, Michael Jackson, for the Sega Video Game “Sonic The Hedge Hog”".

So a couple of guys who happened to work with MJ before that point did music on the game. How does this mean MJ did the music for Sonic 3?

You're right, the credits do not mean that the music in the finished game is by Jackson and I'm not trying to say that it is. However, all of them are connected to Jackson, all are musicians or producers in the music industry not the games industry, and Sonic 3 was the first and last game any of them were involved with. What that does strongly suggest is that Jackson's involvement got further than the discussion stages, otherwise Jackson's associates shouldn't have recieved more than a special thanks credit.

Edit: The only thing that really makes me suspect that some of Jackson's work remains is the connection between the Sonic 3 end credit theme and Jackson's "Stranger in Moscow". The latter was penned around the time Sonic 3 was in production, and if the similiarity is a coincidence it is an uncanny one. It's omission in the PC version, when a MIDI version could have been made without the samples, also seems strange.

Melf

02-12-2009, 11:05 AM

Here's what Cirocco did on Sonic 3:

Sonic Cues - (levels 2& 3)
Company: MJJ / Pebbles Music / Sega Corporation
Project: Sonic The Hedgehog – Game theme music cues
Role: Programmer, Additional Production by Cirocco and Arranger-Composer (with Brad Buxer)I've spoken with several Sega higher ups from the time, and none of them confirm Jackson was involved. In fact, some, like Mike Latham, state that he had no involvement whatsoever.

I'm inclined to believe that Jackson was set to do the music at some point, but his scandals kind of black listed him at the company. This would have been a sensitive issue for Sega, given how closely it worked with Jackson in the past.

It may also be possible that whatever music he was set to do for Sonic 3 was given to/handed over to those other composers, who then continued to add to and work on them some more. So, the initial effort would have been by Jackson, but what whatever was eventually finished wasn't.

I really don't think he got to actually work on any music for the game, but nothing seems to 100% confirm or deny that.

Silanda

02-12-2009, 11:45 AM

That's quite possible. I'd still like to know exactly who wrote the ending theme though, its structure is so similar to Stranger in Moscow. Could one of the composers who worked with Jackson have heard it while it was still unreleased and been subconsciously (or not) inspired by it? That has happened with game music before.

Aarzak

02-12-2009, 02:24 PM

The Naka blurb was from a recent interview from some game site, and he as the producer of the game seems to know SOMETHING about this, but isn't willing to tell yet.

Elusive

02-12-2009, 06:57 PM

The Naka blurb was from a recent interview from some game site, and he as the producer of the game seems to know SOMETHING about this, but isn't willing to tell yet.

The guy's trying to shed Sonic, he's split from Sega on amicable terms and started his own company and is doing altogether different things now. Reading between the lines, he's probably trying to steer the conversation somewhere else beyond the character that's been haunting him for fifteen-odd years.

This is probably nothing more than a Sega Sound Team MJ fan sampling this guy's sound, and throwing him a reference in the game's credits so they don't get sued. MJ was in court on child abuse charges, was he really going to go apeshit at a video game company (the company he worked with in the Alex Kidd and Sonic 2sday days, at that) with that on his plate?

Joe Redifer

02-12-2009, 07:12 PM

Did Queen secretly do the music for Vanilla Ice's "Ice Ice Baby"?

Rusty Venture

02-12-2009, 07:22 PM

I heard David Bowie helped.

Silanda

02-12-2009, 08:12 PM

This is probably nothing more than a Sega Sound Team MJ fan sampling this guy's sound, and throwing him a reference in the game's credits so they don't get sued.

He's not mentioned in the credits at all. Noone noticed any MJ connection (except perhaps the Jam homage in Carnival Night Zone's music) until, IIRC, Roger Hector mentioned that he was initially signed up to do the music in an interview.

Melf

02-13-2009, 12:03 AM

Yuji Naka recently talked to Kikizo and was asked about this:

Kikizo: Going a bit further back, I wonder if you can clear up some speculation that's been around for years now, that Michael Jackson was involved in the music production for Sonic 3? There is some really quite convincing evidence on the internet (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JbVM-l2Oku4). You must surely be the guy to say yes it's true, or no it's not?!

Naka: [laughs] It's best that you ask Sega!

Kikizo: Well, er, it was your game, Naka-san... nobody at Sega would even know any more...

Naka: It's a mystery [laughs]. This information is on a need-to-know basis! [laughs more] One day, when the time comes, I will give you the information!Full article (http://games.kikizo.com/features/yuji-naka-prope-interview-feb-2009-p1.asp).

Rusty Venture

02-13-2009, 12:20 AM

That comes off more like he finds the idea preposterous than "oh I'm not saying anything so I can perpetuate this mystery!"

Joe Redifer

02-13-2009, 05:11 AM

I like Adam's response: It's YOUR game, you should know! Fool. I am amazed at all the interviews he (Adam at Kikizo) gets and yet his forums are sometimes pretty barren, which they shouldn't be.

Zebbe

02-13-2009, 11:59 AM

There is obviously something fishy around this, or he has some weird humour. Let's hope Adam has an interview with MJ himself upcoming, he should know whether he did the music for Sonic 3 or not (if he isn't like Noriyuki Iwadare, who is demented and forgot which games he worked on).

TmEE

02-13-2009, 12:22 PM

Lets get Melf interview MJ regarding the Moonwalker game, and then ask a question about S3 :P

edojapan76

02-15-2009, 10:44 AM

Not saying he did or didn't work on Sonic 3, but is it not possible he was writing under an assumed name because of the "scandal"

Rusty Venture

02-15-2009, 02:55 PM

Given the type of scandal, Sega's main audience being around that age, and the fact that his popularity was on the decline, I'd have to wonder why Sega would risk/bother with having MJ compose under an assumed name.

Melf

02-15-2009, 04:00 PM

Lets get Melf interview MJ regarding the Moonwalker game, and then ask a question about S3 :P

If MJ wasn't such a recluse, I would definitely interview him.

LOL, I can imagine him thinking I want to ask him about "Thriller" or his career, and then he's like "WTF? You want to talk about Sonic?"