If you ever want to know which was the most powerful 16-bit system,

[Sega-17]

then you should plug in Thunder Force IV (Lighting Force).


Holy shit does this game still look fantastic.

Does anyone seriously think that the first level with all that pretty parallax isn't the most awesome level in all of 16-bit land?

[Zebbe]

It's Lightening Force, can't you spell!?!?!?!?!? (joke)

Yeah, it is an awesome game. I think it can be done on the Neo-Geo though, another 16-bit system.

[0x15e]

It's Lightening Force, can't you spell!?!?!?!?!? (joke)

Yeah, it is an awesome game. I think it can be done on the Neo-Geo though, another 16-bit system.
That's not a particularly fair comparison. The Neo-Geo was in a class of its own, IMO. I mean think: Lightening Force vs. Blazing Star. 64 colors vs. 4096 colors. 8 MEGA POWER vs. 346 MEGA POWER. You simply could not do something like Blazing Star on the Genesis.

As for the more common 16-bit systems though, yeah, LF / Genesis / MD all the way.

[tomaitheous]

then you should plug in Thunder Force IV (Lighting Force).


Holy shit does this game still look fantastic.

Does anyone seriously think that the first level with all that pretty parallax isn't the most awesome level in all of 16-bit land?

It looks great but can be done on other systems with two planes just as easy. It's more of a testament of the programmers than the system of how beautiful that stage came out. Once you get passed the eye candy and the slowdown (were they trying to capture that SNES feel?), you'll realize TF3 is a better game.

[Ugly Bob]

Programmers are what it is all about with the Genesis. Just think of Disney's Aladdin for proof. That game should be mandatory playing for anyone making a movie based game!

[Genesis Knight]

Dunno about how it reflects on the mightiest 16-bitter, but I second anything positive about TFIV. It rocks from the opening titles and never stops. Amazing game.

[VinnyT]

Programmers are what it is all about with the Genesis. Just think of Disney's Aladdin for proof. That game should be mandatory playing for anyone making a movie based game!
I love how playing the game years later, I realized that they watched the movie, yet they didn't at the same time.

Mostly how the game makes the movie look like Aladdin was a machete wielding thief throughout the film.

[Aarzak]

How WAS all of that wonderful parallax done exactly? And Tom.........explanation how it could be done on two planes. NAO. I'd honestly liek to know.

Oh.........and we already have these kind of discussions in like every thread, hardware-related or not. Its off-topic-tastic!

[AD2101]

Once you get passed the eye candy and the slowdown, you'll realize TF3 is a better game.

lololololololololololololololol

Seriously though both are great games and I felt the same way until I finally beat lightening force. There is less slowdown in TF3 but other than that and how easy it is I don't see anyway its better than TFIV.

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

Lightening force on mania mode is nuts! I can beat the early levels, but the later ones are just insane. TF3 kills shit as well.

[xbrinkx]

The Genesis was the master of parallax scrolling. Sonic 2, Thunder Force IV, Gley Lancer, and Ecco 2 were great examples. I believe the SNES had more background layers, but they weren't utilized due to the slower CPU speed.

[tomaitheous]

There is less slowdown in TF3 but other than that and how easy it is I don't see anyway its better than TFIV.

Hahaha! Probably because I love TF3 and TF4 just didn't have the same feeling IMO. I remember anticipating the release of TF4 and being blown away by the visuals and such, but after a while when the "wow" factor wore off - I went back to lovin' TF3. I'm not the only one, though ;)



How WAS all of that wonderful parallax done exactly? And Tom.........explanation how it could be done on two planes. NAO. I'd honestly liek to know.

Oh.........and we already have these kind of discussions in like every thread, hardware-related or not. Its off-topic-tastic!

You really want to know? Here's a hint: the overlapping planes of clouds and mountains are static from each other when the screen scrolls vertically. They never overlap ;) Horizontal line scrolling is used change the scroll speeds of each plane every so many lines and the two planes reversing priority and vice versa at the right times/lines. Still, that ocean side level has got to be one of the most impressive and visually done scroll setups of that era.

[Joe Redifer]

Think of it this way: Screen 1 can overlap screen 2, and screen 2 can overlap screen 1 (even at the same time on different vertical levels like in Thunder Force 4). But one screen can not overlap itself. A screen can scroll into itself (but not over) vertically, but that's it. So in TF4 when you look at the clouds you are seeing Screen 1, then below that is screen 2, then screen 1 again, then screen 2, etc etc etc, all scrolling at different speeds. A single screen can scroll at multiple speeds as long as it doesn't overlap itself (like the 1st stage background in Sonic 2... the stuff behind the front screen).

[TmEE]

SNES has 4 layers, but in the more beautiful looking modes these 4 are shrunk to 2 (or even 1). And AFAIK, SNES can't do line scrolling like MD can.

[Genesis Knight]

TFIII just seems like the old crusty pervert next door compared to the slick future generation TFIV.

Seriously, though, the presentation was so much more advanced over TFIII and the action was more intense. III wasn't a bad game, but IV was an evolution of the formula to perfection.

The slowdown helps, by the way.

[tomaitheous]

SNES has 4 layers, but in the more beautiful looking modes these 4 are shrunk to 2 (or even 1). And AFAIK, SNES can't do line scrolling like MD can.

Sure it can do per scanline scrolling. It uses an HDMA (horizontal DMA) system to update up to 8 different registers per scanline. That's how mode 7's 3D effect is done and the gradient of transparency, sine wave effect, etc. Also the 4 layer mode is pretty useless (all tiles are 4 color mode). The 3 layer mode is the optimal, though one of the layers uses 4 color tiles with the other two using 16 color tiles.

[Joe Redifer]

And AFAIK, SNES can't do line scrolling like MD can.
Yeah it can. I've seen lots of SNES games with line scrolling.

[Aarzak]

I think he meant that the SNES can't do line-scrolling AS WELL as the Genesis can.

BTW............"Thunder Spirits" sucks!

I don't know which among the "Legendary Four" first-gen SNES shmups (Gradius III, Super R-Type, Thunder Spirits, U.N Squadron) has the worst slowdown and flicker/breakup, but they are legendary because of it.

I must say that the SNES port of "U.N Squadron", to this day looks damn close to the coin-op. Very impressive, dunno how they pulled that off and choked with "Final Fi-..........never mind, those were memory-munching beat-em-ups and fighting games.

[tomaitheous]

I must say that the SNES port of "U.N Squadron", to this day looks damn close to the coin-op. Very impressive, dunno how they pulled that off and choked with "Final Fi-..........never mind, those were memory-munching beat-em-ups and fighting games.

I think Gradius 3 was the flicker/slowdown king. The slowdown I can understand.. somewhat, but not the flicker. That's just some seriously poor programming on their end.

I think the SNES version of U.N. Squadron is better than the arcade. The music's *better* than the arcade and so was the mapped system with variable stages sort of like Bionic Commando for the NES, that wasn't in the arcade version. Those were nice touches.

Btw- Thunder Spirits is just a joke. I've seen the snes do better than that on it's worst days. When you press the fire button, the game shudders with super tiny amounts of slowdown - giving a shudder effect. I thought it was just the emu, but it's not. I actually paid $2 for a used cart just to see if that was real......and it was :o

[Joe Redifer]

Send that used cart to me so I can finally write up a SIDE-by-SIDE article about it for this site.

[tomaitheous]

Send that used cart to me so I can finally write up a SIDE-by-SIDE article about it for this site.

You seriously want it? I'm sure I can ship it for less than $2 (maybe $1.35) or maybe even the price of a stamp if I can get it to fit in an envelope :D. What version are you going to compare it to?

[Joe Redifer]

Thunder Force 3 for the 16-bit Sega Genesis.

I rented Thunder Spirits long, long ago and I also own the Saturn Thunder Force AC, which is the same thing as Thunder Spirits, only not SNES powered.

[Aarzak]

I had a copy of "Thunder Spirits"..........up until early 2006............when I sold my entire cartridge-based video game collection for less than it was worth.........

I recall TS catching my interest when I saw it being played in "Nickelodeon Arcade". I was boggled as to why a slightly different "Thunder Force III" was on SNES with a new name. I later got a copy for around $5 at a local pawn shop in 2001...........man I had such an awesome SNES collection.

The slowdown in TS was FIERCE when "Rapid Fire" was enabled, and you didn't actually have to mash the Y button for every shot. ("Rapid Fire" was disabled by default)

Thunder Spirits Stage 1 video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=38Dxq2-ltjo

[Cinder6]

It's Lightening Force, can't you spell!?!?!?!?!? (joke)

Yeah, it is an awesome game. I think it can be done on the Neo-Geo though, another 16-bit system.

Don't most people consider the Neo-Geo a 24-bit system? It is a pretty unfair comparison...just look at games like Blazing Star, which blow any 16-bit console out of the water in the graphics department.

Back on-topic, maybe I'll pick up TF3 and TF4 (never played either). I need more shooters, and these are a hell of a lot cheaper than Blazing Star :)

[Joe Redifer]

Don't most people consider the Neo-Geo a 24-bit system?
Only people who are morons.

[Cinder6]

Only people who are morons.
Guess that describes everyone on the neo-geo.com forums :)

More seriously, though, here's something I just found on this very issue:

Parallel processing is a technology that allows one system to utilize two separate CPUs (Central Processing Units) to create one amazing experience. Neo-Geo has one 16-bit 68000 CPU and an 8-bit Z8OA CPU. So how many "bits" is Neo-Geo? Well, it's hard to say. A lot of people will add the two numbers together and say, "The Neo-Geo is a 24-bit system." This is incorrect. You cannot simply add the two numbers. The Neo-Geo would have far less capabilities if it simply had one 24-bit CPU. Others call it a 16-bit system just because of the generation it comes from. Some will say it's 32-bit, simply because it's the next step after 16. None of these would really be accurate. The most correct statement you could make about the Neo-Geo is, "The Neo-Geo has two CPUs. One is 8-bit and the other is 16-bit." There you have it, parallel processing, one of the major technologies that makes the Neo-Geo such a high-power and high-priced unit.

I'll stop there, lest I venture further into off-topic land.

[Joe Redifer]

Same exact thing can be said about the Sega Genesis since it has the same 2 CPUs (at slightly slower speeds). The Z80 only runs the sound in the Neo Geo, not game logic. It usually does the same in the Genesis (optional) and also runs Sega Master System games. If everyone at the neo-geo.com forums actually thinks that it is 24-bit, then they are super retarded. I can't believe that they do believe that, though... well maybe some of them.

[tomaitheous]

Guess that describes everyone on the neo-geo.com forums :)

More seriously, though, here's something I just found on this very issue:


I'll stop there, lest I venture further into off-topic land.


Or one could say that the Neo Geo is a 16bit system which has a dedicated 8bit music/audio processor.

Many arcade systems had a second processor dedicated for running music/audio tasks. Even the SNES had a dedicated 8bit processor to handle the DSP directly for sound/music generation.

Cinder6: You haven't played TF3 or TF4? I would definitely pick them up. Even if you weren't a shooter fan, you can atleast listen to the musics ;)

[TmEE]

Sure it can do per scanline scrolling. It uses an HDMA (horizontal DMA) system to update up to 8 different registers per scanline. That's how mode 7's 3D effect is done and the gradient of transparency, sine wave effect, etc. Also the 4 layer mode is pretty useless (all tiles are 4 color mode). The 3 layer mode is the optimal, though one of the layers uses 4 color tiles with the other two using 16 color tiles.

ahh... but it isn't as simple as in MD where you have a line scroll table... I'd consider HDMA "trick" since its done on the fly, not passively by the VDP...

[Aarzak]

The Neo, apart from having a faster CPU and sound CPU than the Genny and SNES, had a VDP and sound suite that blew both systems away. The arrogantly huge cart sizes that doubled as RAM space helped developers showcase the Neo's abilities and make it one of the most difficult consoles to port games from until this past console generation.

24 or no 24-Bit (pssh.......marketing), it whooped both the Genny and Sneeze's asses, though some cirlces say that the SNES's sound suite was close to rivaling the Neo's.

The Neo's technological dominance over the proletariat home consoles was solidified with the introduction of the "100 Mega SHOCK!" carts. The original "Samurai Shodown" was the biggest "fuck you!" to the Neo's competitors, as all of their ports managed to have glaring flaws within them that rendered the Neo port the definitive port to this day.

[Zebbe]

Wow, I really regret not buying this mega-supreme 16-bit console that was a gamer's heaven. I'm surprised not ALL Mega Drive and SNES owners threw away their systems to Africa and bought this far superior console instead. What could be the reason, what COULD possibly be the reason not everyone did this.........

[TmEE]

You can very easily have HUGE carts on MD too, but would you have payed like $200 for one ? MD could have easily been advertised as 32 bit, since 68000 feels like a 32-bit CPU to a programmer (though that applies to NeoGeo too). I like NeoGeo...

[0x15e]

Guess that describes everyone on the neo-geo.com forums :)Uh, no. We know better than that. The term "24-bit" is used over there like "ZOMG MEGA POWER" and "Blast Processing" are used here. Anyone that posts differently is usually either a.) corrected or b.) laughed / flamed off the board, depending on who replies first.

Or one could say that the Neo Geo is a 16bit system which has a dedicated 8bit music/audio processor.Kind of like how the Z80 in the Genesis does?

Anyway, as I said before, the Neo is in a whole other world from the rest of the 16-bit consoles. It was designed for industrial / commercial use with a home version built as an afterthought. All the others were built with home consumer use in mind first, with sacrifices made to keep costs down.

[Cinder6]

Uh, no. We know better than that. The term "24-bit" is used over there like "ZOMG MEGA POWER" and "Blast Processing" are used here. Anyone that posts differently is usually either a.) corrected or b.) laughed / flamed off the board, depending on who replies first.
Eh, I've seen a lot of people calling it a 24-bit system, without it being obviously tongue-in-cheek. I always assumed that it was used to differentiate it from the 16-bit consoles, since it's so far ahead (and well it should be; it's an arcade system, first and foremost).

[Zebbe]

Then the 32X is a 64-bit system, as it has two 32-bit processors. Add the 24 of the Genesis and you have 88-bit power. Add 16 more from the Sega CD and you have 104-bit. That is 80 bit more than the Neo-Geo. The Neo-Geo is simply too weak to compare to the quintuple processing of the Sega Genesis CD 32X!

[lordofduct]

Uh, no. We know better than that. The term "24-bit" is used over there like "ZOMG MEGA POWER" and "Blast Processing" are used here. Anyone that posts differently is usually either a.) corrected or b.) laughed / flamed off the board, depending on who replies first.
Kind of like how the Z80 in the Genesis does?

Anyway, as I said before, the Neo is in a whole other world from the rest of the 16-bit consoles. It was designed for industrial / commercial use with a home version built as an afterthought. All the others were built with home consumer use in mind first, with sacrifices made to keep costs down.

It's funny, the Neo-Geo actually has both the same processors the Genny does. A Motorolla 68000 and the Zilog Z80 (the Z80 was used as a sound processor in the genny and for backwards compatability as the Z80 was in the sms. Where as the Z80 was a co-processer in the Neo-Geo).

The Neo-Geo just has them clocked at nearly twice the speed each.


But yeah, I don't really consider the Neo-Geo as part of the 16-bit ers... mainly because it's more of a home-arcade system, overpriced, and no one owned it. But that is all just technicalities.

[ary incorparated]

i had i neo geo with the huge priced games but i didnt pay much for,it was a bargin somewhere on ebay.Anyway neo geo totally blew me away the first time i saw it i went home and only tought Neo geo>>capcom snk for the DC but the transparancys i tought to see where just flicker but still KOf 2000 and many more looked amazing great console.Since the neo geo mostly has fighting games and metal slug and a few adventures i realise theres no collecting in it Buying neo geo aes games is like doing drug,both make you poor.The snes could do stuff a genny and a neo couldnt do but snes its sound is poor as hell listen to Xmen,Punch out an Turtles TFighters and then boast Tf4 into your genesis for almost real rock samples.If snes was that good in sound it could compete with metal slug 5 or 3? hell not the only game with decent rock was RandR racing on snes.

[Zebbe]

I don't know how many times you've compared the Thunder Force IV soundtrack with the SNES soundchip, ary. But they sure as hell are equally entertaining everytime :D.

[Joe Redifer]

Where as the Z80 was a co-processer in the Neo-Geo).
Just as much as the Z80 was a co-processor in the Genesis and no more.

[lordofduct]

Just as much as the Z80 was a co-processor in the Genesis and no more.
What I meant by this is the the genny used it as a sound processor...

but now that I look at it, the neo geo only used it as a audio controller as well... hrmm, thought it used it for more then that.

[Aarzak]

It was the massive cart sizes that made most of the difference with the Neo. Notice how its earliest games weren't too far from the realm of the Genny and SNES..........except for those luscious color palettes, brief moments of scaling sprites/backgrounds and high-quality music and sampled sound......seriously.

Still, I'm impressed that developers managed to whip up Neo ports for lesser consoles that at least played the part........for the most part. Like I said though, by the time 100 MEGA POWER games like "Fatal Fury 2" and "Art of Fighting" started coming out, the lesser consoles were being pushed to their absolute limits, both hardware and cart size-wise. By mid-late 1993, with games like "World Heroes 2", "Fatal Fury Special" and the big Neo kahuna of '93, "Samurai Shodown", the cart consoles just couldn't go no more, the ports became crappier and console ports shifted to the newfangled CD machines along with the developers (now in-house from SNK themselves). Turns out those CD consoles had the space, but not enough on-board RAM for all that spriteage.


Don't know if I'm the only one, but didn't it seem like Sega of Japan was quite stingy with themselves and their third-party developers when it came to cart sizes? Seriously, I think there's only a handful of Japanese-developed Genny games (both by Sega and their Japanese third-parties) that go over 24 MEGA POWER. Sega seriously cheaped out with their co-developed (with Saurus, a regular Neo-Geo developer and part-time console porter) port of "Samurai Shodown" by only allocating a 24 MEGA POWER cart, while Takara got 32 MEGA POWER to work with with their SNES port of Shodown. A 32 MEGA Genesis port of Shodown would've easily finished whupping that horribly disappointing SNES port. But because of the 24 MEGA cart, many things were left out that took away from the experience. But it was still quite an impressive port. Look at the size of those sprites and backgrounds! I heard Sega and Saurus were utilizing the late-gen "Sega Graphics Library" developer tools, that allowed them to squeeze every last ounce out of the Genny hardware for accurate arcade ports.











...........Wonder who got that last reference.

[ary incorparated]

It was the massive cart sizes that made most of the difference with the Neo. Notice how its earliest games weren't too far from the realm of the Genny and SNES..........except for those luscious color palettes, brief moments of scaling sprites/backgrounds and high-quality music and sampled sound......seriously.

Still, I'm impressed that developers managed to whip up Neo ports for lesser consoles that at least played the part........for the most part. Like I said though, by the time 100 MEGA POWER games like "Fatal Fury 2" and "Art of Fighting" started coming out, the lesser consoles were being pushed to their absolute limits, both hardware and cart size-wise. By mid-late 1993, with games like "World Heroes 2", "Fatal Fury Special" and the big Neo kahuna of '93, "Samurai Shodown", the cart consoles just couldn't go no more, the ports became crappier and console ports shifted to the newfangled CD machines along with the developers (now in-house from SNK themselves). Turns out those CD consoles had the space, but not enough on-board RAM for all that spriteage.


Don't know if I'm the only one, but didn't it seem like Sega of Japan was quite stingy with themselves and their third-party developers when it came to cart sizes? Seriously, I think there's only a handful of Japanese-developed Genny games (both by Sega and their Japanese third-parties) that go over 24 MEGA POWER. Sega seriously cheaped out with their co-developed (with Saurus, a regular Neo-Geo developer and part-time console porter) port of "Samurai Shodown" by only allocating a 24 MEGA POWER cart, while Takara got 32 MEGA POWER to work with with their SNES port of Shodown. A 32 MEGA Genesis port of Shodown would've easily finished whupping that horribly disappointing SNES port. But because of the 24 MEGA cart, many things were left out that took away from the experience. But it was still quite an impressive port. Look at the size of those sprites and backgrounds! I heard Sega and Saurus were utilizing the late-gen "Sega Graphics Library" developer tools, that allowed them to squeeze every last ounce out of the Genny hardware for accurate arcade ports.











...........Wonder who got that last reference.

Neo geo just was sicknes but in health,actually i doubt that when considering the prices.


I don't know how many times you've compared the Thunder Force IV soundtrack with the SNES soundchip, ary. But they sure as hell are equally entertaining everytime :D.

sure is but how many times is said even on this forum Inferior sound chip whilest that's not true theyre both equally but diffrent,and comparing rock man many games of the genesis also where stuck at doing just good synth stuff and not programmed to do anything like clear guitar samples neither of both is capable of that only the neo geo came very close(listen to MS5 or something like that).Are there any better words then TF4 to explain what the md is capable of sound wise(Metal wise).

I played RT 3 today,what a great game: i always like the sound of powermetal alike music in the mornin :p .

[tomaitheous]

ahh... but it isn't as simple as in MD where you have a line scroll table... I'd consider HDMA "trick" since its done on the fly, not passively by the VDP...

The Megadrive is the only system I know of that has a scroll table like that. Almost all other systems use an interrupt system, and some with buffered registers on the video controller so you don't get mid screen changes.

But anyway, it's by no means a trick. The HMDA (up to 8 individual channels) pull their data from a block in memory and requires no CPU intervention. The HDMA updates the pointers to these blocks itself. It's sort of the same as the MD block scheme, except the video processor DMA's from local memory instead of VRAM. And not just for scroll registers, but for all sPPU regs. The CPU can also change the HDMA controller at any point/mid screen too. I think the only system that "line scroll" type hsync routine as considered being a trick, would be the NES since it required an external timer to generate an IRQ from the cartridge like the popular MMC chips and such.

TmEE: I had some questions about your z80 2 channel setup playing variable frequency samples. I'll post over at the sega dev forums.

Back to Neo Geo. It's display processor was insane. An all sprite display setup. That just blows my mind even in this day and age. That sprite linking system is awesome.

[Aarzak]

A comparison of the three coin-op hardware juggernauts of the '90's, CPS1, CPS2 and the Neo.

CPS1:
Main CPU: Motorola 68000 at 10 MHz
Sound CPU: ZiLOG Z80 at 4 MHz
Sound chip(s): Yamaha YM2151 at 3.57958 MHz + OKI MSM6295 at 7.576 kHz or QSound at 4 MHz (second revision)
Maximum number of colors: 4096 (12 bit RGB)
Colors per tile: 16 (4 bits per pixel)
Maximum number of objects: ?
Scroll faces: 3
Scroll features: Horizontal & vertical scrolling, linescroll
Resolution, pixels: 384×224

Neo-Geo:
Processor
Main Processor: Motorola 68000 running at 12 MHz
Although the 68000 CPU was designed by Motorola, there were many other clones of this CPU found in the Neo Geo hardware. The most common CPU is the TMP68HC000 manufactured by Toshiba. This is essentially a Motorola 68000 clone.
Co-Processor: Zilog Z80 running at 4 MHz. This is used as an audio controller.
Sound chip: Yamaha YM2610 15 Sound Channels. 7 Digital, 4 FM synthesis, 3 PSG, and 1 Noise Channel.

Memory
Main Memory (used directly by 68K): 64 KB
Main Video memory : 74 KB
Video Memory: 64 KB
Palette Memory : 8 KB
Fast Video RAM : 2 KB
Sound Memory (used directly by Z80): 2 KB

Display
Display resolution: 320x224 (many games only used the centermost 304 pixels)
Color Palette: 65,536
Maximum Colors On-Screen: 4,096
Maximum Sprites On-Screen: 380
Minimum Sprite Size: 1x2
Maximum Sprite Size: 16x512
Maximum Sprites per scanline: 96
Background Layers: 0
Aspect ratio: 4:3
A/V output:RF, composite video, RGB (with separate 21 pin cable FCG-9).

Sound
Sound CPU: Z80 at 4 MHz
Sound hardware: YM2610 at 8 MHz, stereo sounds up to 56 kHz
4 channels FM (4 operators + LFO)
3 PSG
1 noise
7 4-bit ADPCM
Work RAM (sound): 2KB
Sound ROM 128KB on-board (only less than 32KB used)
up to 512KB sound ROM on cartridges

CPS2:
Main CPU: Motorola 68000 at 16 MHz
Sound CPU: ZiLOG Z80 at 8 MHz
Sound chip: QSound at 4 MHz
Maximum number of colors: 4096 (12 bit RGB)
Colors per tile: 16 (4 bits per pixel)
Maximum number of objects: 900 (16×16 pixels)
Scroll faces: 3
Scroll features: Horizontal & vertical scrolling, linescroll
Resolution, pixels: 384×224

[TmEE]

The Megadrive is the only system I know of that has a scroll table like that. Almost all other systems use an interrupt system, and some with buffered registers on the video controller so you don't get mid screen changes.

But anyway, it's by no means a trick. The HMDA (up to 8 individual channels) pull their data from a block in memory and requires no CPU intervention. The HDMA updates the pointers to these blocks itself. It's sort of the same as the MD block scheme, except the video processor DMA's from local memory instead of VRAM. And not just for scroll registers, but for all sPPU regs. The CPU can also change the HDMA controller at any point/mid screen too. I think the only system that "line scroll" type hsync routine as considered being a trick, would be the NES since it required an external timer to generate an IRQ from the cartridge like the popular MMC chips and such.

TmEE: I had some questions about your z80 2 channel setup playing variable frequency samples. I'll post over at the sega dev forums.

Back to Neo Geo. It's display processor was insane. An all sprite display setup. That just blows my mind even in this day and age. That sprite linking system is awesome.

If that's the case with SNES and line scrolling then yeah, its not a trick... but why then isn't it used as much (and well) as in MD games ?

and my 2ch Z80 drivers variable freq samples is not a big deal... both channels share the rate, I would have written a real variable freq thing, but the quality would not have been so good, and I would probably not had enough time for FM and PSG and I would have had to say all the optimizations that make all I've done possible good bye.

NeoGeo has entirely sprite based VDP ? Is there unlimited (limited by memory)sprites ?

[Joe Redifer]

Neo Geo = 380 sprites onscreen at once of varying sizes, usually very tall and thin and the biggest size (like 16x512 or something weird like that).

[TmEE]

Cool !!! Damn, I like to make something for Neo Geo too... but my list of things to do is already too big (GP32, Saturn, DC...).

[Zebbe]

sure is but how many times is said even on this forum Inferior sound chip whilest that's not true theyre both equally but diffrent,and comparing rock man many games of the genesis also where stuck at doing just good synth stuff and not programmed to do anything like clear guitar samples neither of both is capable of that only the neo geo came very close(listen to MS5 or something like that).Are there any better words then TF4 to explain what the md is capable of sound wise(Metal wise).

I think the drums suck in Thunder Force IV (they sound like *omph*omph*). They are far better in many, many other Mega Drive games.

[ary incorparated]

I think the drums suck in Thunder Force IV (they sound like *omph*omph*). They are far better in many, many other Mega Drive games.

Drums mostly suck in genesis games they probably left the dac out or something for thick bass drum what the game could need.As for drums vapor trail comes in mind as one of the best because its one of the few who uses cymbols and bass drumm sound at best and another good one to mention is afterburner 32X.For drums the snes or neo geo do way better jobs.The combination of metal alike and good drum samples is really rare on genesis offcourse we all would like some cool metal with dimmu borgir drum :p ,i really like to see that happen The clearest guitar samples possible on genesis and Cool drum in a shooter or something like that.

[Elusive]

Drums mostly suck in genesis games they probably left the dac out or something for thick bass drum what the game could need.As for drums vapor trail comes in mind as one of the best because its one of the few who uses cymbols and bass drumm sound at best and another good one to mention is afterburner 32X.For drums the snes or neo geo do way better jobs.The combination of metal alike and good drum samples is really rare on genesis offcourse we all would like some cool metal with dimmu borgir drum :p ,i really like to see that happen The clearest guitar samples possible on genesis and Cool drum in a shooter or something like that.

What's this? The Mega Drive is excellent at producing heavy drum sounds and heavy bass sounds. Take the intro to Streets of Rage, for example. Sonic 2's Metropolis Zone has an excellent breakbeat sound, and Probotector/Contra Hard Corps is pretty much all heavy synths.

[TmEE]

The reason there wasn't much drums used as the samples take lot of space and developers usually didn't have very good sound tools.

[ary incorparated]

What's this? The Mega Drive is excellent at producing heavy drum sounds and heavy bass sounds. Take the intro to Streets of Rage, for example. Sonic 2's Metropolis Zone has an excellent breakbeat sound, and Probotector/Contra Hard Corps is pretty much all heavy synths.

hmm good but RRR on the snes hass tons of better drum sound for instance.the drum sound isnt bad but it's defnitly missing good cymbol sound all over the place.Contra Hard coprs is heavy but has a bit grainy metalish sound,Tf4 powns HC in metal department for shure.TF4 is the nearest thing made on genesis that sounds near to real guitar.Skitchin was also a good mention because it had pretty good drum+grunting Metal kind of sound.

[The Sports Guy]

Skitchin. I remember playing that game when I was 6 at my cousins house and we paused it for christmas dinner and we burned the image into my aunts TV because we left it paused for like 4 or 5 hours. I was in BIG trouble.

[Zebbe]

How the hell is a 6 year old supposed to know that images get burnt into the TV if it is on for too long?

[ary incorparated]

Skitchin. I remember playing that game when I was 6 at my cousins house and we paused it for christmas dinner and we burned the image into my aunts TV because we left it paused for like 4 or 5 hours. I was in BIG trouble.

Lol great game tought only the graphics where a bit harch on the eyes.

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

Skitchin. I remember playing that game when I was 6 at my cousins house and we paused it for christmas dinner and we burned the image into my aunts TV because we left it paused for like 4 or 5 hours. I was in BIG trouble.

Thats fucking awesome. Ive never heard of anyone actually having it happen. Ive always been really paranoid about that so I pause it and turn the tv off until I come back.

[tomaitheous]

Was it a rear projection set? I've never seen a standard CRT set get burn in that quick. I know I've left my TV set on during game sound test screens for hours before and never had the slightest hint of burn in. Than again I never ran my sets with full contrast.

[TmEE]

Once Sonic3 soundtest was on over 10 hours (I fell asleep)... but same here, people complain that my TV is too dark (black is really black not grey like everyone else likes) so no burn in... but I've seen a PC CRT with Windows taskbar burned in ;)

[BlowMyCartridge]

The guy on the Skitchin upgrade screen looks like Sean Penn.

[j_factor]

Isn't the X68000 the most powerful 16-bit system?

[tomaitheous]

Isn't the X68000 the most powerful 16-bit system?
More powerful than the Neo Geo? It might be... Man, how awesome it would have been if the X68000 came to the US back then. X68000>Amiga*2.