Genre Spotlight: Soccer-Rama

[Melf]

The Super Bowl is practically upon us, so we've decided to celebrate this great American sports tradition with a new Genre Spotlight article covering all the football games available on the Genesis. Wait...excuse me... (takes note handed from offscreen)... Sorry ladies and gentlemen. It seems our article is on the sport the rest of the world calls football, that which we Americans know as soccer. Not a problem! A great sport deserves all the same coverage, so we've rounded up all of them for you in a comprehensive piece. Read the full article (http://www.sega-16.com/2008/01/genre-spotlight-soccer-rama/) and lace up those cleats!

[McTom]

Wow Ken, that is posted quickly! It looks great, thanks a lot! but it is no RR as the front says ;)

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

Wow good article. Ive recently been playing lots of genesis sports games and was wondering about the best soccer game to get. I never used to like old 8-16bitsport games, but im really getting into them now. The world cup rugby game is excellent IMO having played and followed rugby for a long time. The gameplay is spot on. NHL games on genesis are supprisingly good, and I just got Madden 97 today and it seems to be good quality. I have a fifa soccer game which is pretty good, but I think im going to track down sensible soccer now.

[Ruudos]

Pelé was released in Europe, since I own a copy of that game. Don't know about the sequel though.

[starphaser]

sensible soccer is terrific, everyone should play it at least once. international superstar soccer deluxe is a classic and eventually it evolved into the famous winning eleven series.

great article :)

[Mr Smith]

Fantastic read. It's great to see the true majesty of Mega Drive football laid bare.

[megabomberman]

I concur, that was a very nice section, although it does dissappoint me as unfortunately bar a few exceptions most the megadrive soccer titles are quite similar, the isometric view of fifa offered something different and iss was just awesome, the original italia 90 is a classic for all the wrong reasons and is just plain fun... But other than that I would say European club soccer is the only genuine title I want from that lot!

Great feature though....

Anyone played Super Soccer on the snes... Its as shitty as they come but like italia 90 a barrel of laughs...

[AEther]

Pele and Pele World Tournament Soccer were released in Europe since I have both.

[CRV]

There was never a Tecmo World Cup '93. There's a ROM out that's named that, but the title screen simply says "Tecmo World Cup." And Tecmo had nothing to do with it.

[playgen]

I believe Tecmo did make "Tecmo World Cup" (that plays more like an FMV game than Tecmo World Cup 92), its just an unreleased title, like Ninja Gaiden.

[108 Stars]

ISS Deluxe is the no.1 football game on MD for me.

[Zebbe]

... simply because it was ported by Factor 5, a German amateur game developer who have brought us nothing more note-worthy than a Contra-clone.

[Elusive]

AWS Pro Moves Soccer: The 'AWS' stands for ASCIIware World Sports. It's in the logo!

I didn't know World Cup Italia '90 was a licensed title; it's in the European Mega Games 1, is it in the American counterpart three-in-one?

[108 Stars]

Zebbe, now you are insulting me. First of all, I do not love a developer because he´s from Germany. But I am proud of Factor 5, they were one of the very best 68000 developers out there, not some amateur game developer. And if you ever played Turrican games you should have noticed that the gameplay is very different from Contra.
ISS is technically very noteworthy as well, an improved version of the best looking and playing soccer games on SNES. Indiana Jones Greatest Adventures which sadly remained unreleased featured all the Mode-7-effects from the SNES-version.
If you had any idea about talented coders you´d know that Factor 5 stands on top with very few others who can compare.

[Zebbe]

And if you ever played Turrican games you should have noticed that the gameplay is very different from Contra.

Yes, they have stolen some of Metroid too.


ISS is technically very noteworthy as well, an improved version of the best looking and playing soccer games on SNES.

Not according to this (http://home.alphalink.com.au/~warrior/ISSrevISSDM.htm) site:


To sum up, the SNES version gives a 5-0 result to the MegaDrive version of the game, in what concerns longevity of the fun you are supposed to have with the game.


Indiana Jones Greatest Adventures which sadly remained unreleased featured all the Mode-7-effects from the SNES-version.
If you had any idea about talented coders you´d know that Factor 5 stands on top with very few others who can compare.

I'd take other small teams such as TecnoSoft, Treasure and Masaya and their games before Factor 5 any day. One movie-license and a run 'n' gun franchise aren't enough to call them among the best 68k developers.

[108 Stars]

Well, Zebbe, tha proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. What´s wrong with a movie-license? And what do you mean by stolen? You can say that 99% of all Run and Guns are a rip offs, just like any Shoot em up. You are really talking a bunch of shit here.

And telling me I only like them because they are German is a personal insult.

[megabomberman]

Aw fantastic, I'm back a day and ye guys are still at it, i love it, in defence of 108 iss truly is the greatest soccer game, possibly of all time its so much fun, and has such character.... regarding the turrican series... the first few are slightly shabby and contraesque, but it is a 2d platform shooter you could just as easily compare it to "robocop vs terminator" what happens later in the series though is that it blossoms into a completely different game to contra. A much more measured and patient gameplay evolves.... the bosses are an act of concentration and analysis whereas contra is so raw.... on the topic of the rest of the debate, I have nothing to add!

[Zebbe]

Well, Zebbe, tha proves that you have no idea what you are talking about. What´s wrong with a movie-license? And what do you mean by stolen? You can say that 99% of all Run and Guns are a rip offs, just like any Shoot em up. You are really talking a bunch of shit here.

Nothing is wrong with a movie-license, but an unreleased one together with a run 'n' gun franchise is not enough for a company to be called one of the best 68k developers. Turrican may be a great series, but did it do wonders with the hardware or leave an impact on gaming? No, but TechnoSoft reinvented the RTS genre with Herzog Zwei and defined how 68k shmups should look like with the Thunder Force series and Treasure were known to maximize the MD hardware with Gunstar Heroes, Alien Soldier and Yu Yu Hakusho. I think that deserves the title 68k masters, if anything.


And telling me I only like them because they are German is a personal insult.

I thought you knew me better, 108 Stars. I very surprised you take that as an insult. In fact, I am insulted because you took that as an insult.

[108 Stars]

Please, Mega Turrican did wonders with the hardware; it was about the very best ever seen on the Mega Drive to it´s day. That´s just maximizing the hardware like Treasure did; state of the art in 1993.

And you completely ignore the Amiga; an 68 000 machine, where Factor 5 originally got it´s cult-status from for having setting new standards in technological ways. They only did very few MD titles, granted, but what they did was among the very best, and they gained their great reputation for a reason. They later did some of the most impressive N64 and GC-games. This is no amateur-group.

And Chris Hülsbeck is one of the most famous game-musicians of the era.

[Zebbe]

Please, Mega Turrican did wonders with the hardware; it was about the very best ever seen on the Mega Drive to it´s day. That´s just maximizing the hardware like Treasure did; state of the art in 1993.

Give examples.


And you completely ignore the Amiga; an 68 000 machine, where Factor 5 originally got it´s cult-status from for having setting new standards in technological ways. They only did very few MD titles, granted, but what they did was among the very best, and they gained their great reputation for a reason. They later did some of the most impressive N64 and GC-games. This is no amateur-group.

No, I didn't ignore the Amiga. I said Turrican franchise after all and Mega Turrican was the only MD Turrican game by Factor 5. Together with the ISSD port, which was worse than the SNES game, I wouldn't say they did among the very best.


And Chris Hülsbeck is one of the most famous game-musicians of the era.

Paris Hilton is much more famous, but that doesn't really make her any better. Toshiharu Yamanishi is less famous than both, but still better.

[108 Stars]

Examples for WHAT? Mega Turrican was just looking great, with very good level-design, visual style, smooth framerate, nice effects and big bosses.

ISS:
YOU and that article say the MD port was worse, my magazines say it is better. You should know that I of all people say when something on the MD sucks imo, but in this case the MD game is just an improvement.

And Chris Hülsbeck´s music talent should be beyond doubt; sad if it´s not your taste, but Hülsbeck has deserved his cult status just as Uematsu and Koshiro. He is one of the best. Unlike Paris Hilton, he did not become famous because of media presence. He was just part of one of so many small teams in the homecomputer-scene, and he bacame famous because his music stood out.

To show that I am not a loyal Factor 5-follower: The later so famous members of Factor 5 really began with stealing ideas: Great Gianna Sisters is an obvious clone of Super Mario Bros, as Katakis is of R-Type. And I still think this was a cheap way to make money.
But at least the clones were so excellent in quality that Konami gave them ports to do, later Nintendo made Factor 5 a second-party, and Irem let them handle the official port of R-Type for the C64 because of Katakis´excellency.

As you know I do not like Treasure much. I think Gunstar Heroes was their only great game, with Alien Soldier pushing the hardware too far (it DOES flicker badly) and playing tedious, Light Crusader being an unatmospheric and audio-visually mediocre Landstalker clone and the gameplay-wise average Yu Yu Hakushu.

Treasure did visually good stuff, but I would never put them on the same level as Factor 5, wher always visuals, sound and gameplay went hand in hand; well, save for their latest game Lair.

[Disengage]

The Super Bowl is practically upon us, so we've decided to celebrate this great American sports tradition with a new Genre Spotlight article covering all the football games available on the Genesis. Wait...excuse me... (takes note handed from offscreen)... Sorry ladies and gentlemen. It seems our article is on the sport the rest of the world calls football, that which we Americans know as soccer. Not a problem! A great sport deserves all the same coverage, so we've rounded up all of them for you in a comprehensive piece. Read the full article (http://sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=315&title=Genre%20Spotlight:%20Soccer-Rama) and lace up those cleats!

Melf, have you tried the 360 version of Sensible Soccer?

[ary incorparated]

Give examples.



No, I didn't ignore the Amiga. I said Turrican franchise after all and Mega Turrican was the only MD Turrican game by Factor 5. Together with the ISSD port, which was worse than the SNES game, I wouldn't say they did among the very best.



Paris Hilton is much more famous, but that doesn't really make her any better. Toshiharu Yamanishi is less famous than both, but still better.

Paris hilton makes nothing better she,s a mix of a shark tale and a body,her nose is Huge and she is the most expensive parkingmeter alive.Yu Yu hakusho and turrican are the best soccer games among iss offourse.This fued is lol its almost like soccer only no ballz kicking,its more like zidane vs the cardsmen.Factor 5 ooooowns Treasure,i like turrican and i hate alien soldier.

[Zebbe]

Examples for WHAT? Mega Turrican was just looking great, with very good level-design, visual style, smooth framerate, nice effects and big bosses.

Okay, if you think so. I think Contra Hard Corps was far better in all apartments, except for maybe the colours.


ISS:
YOU and that article say the MD port was worse, my magazines say it is better. You should know that I of all people say when something on the MD sucks imo, but in this case the MD game is just an improvement.

What makes it better?



And Chris Hülsbeck´s music talent should be beyond doubt; sad if it´s not your taste, but Hülsbeck has deserved his cult status just as Uematsu and Koshiro. He is one of the best. Unlike Paris Hilton, he did not become famous because of media presence. He was just part of one of so many small teams in the homecomputer-scene, and he bacame famous because his music stood out.

Hülsbeck is great, yes, but compare Mega Turrican to Thunder Force III or IV, production-wise. While MT sounds like Gems and is far better on Amiga, TF series shows what the MD sound hardware can do with its synth solos and metal riffs.


As you know I do not like Treasure much. I think Gunstar Heroes was their only great game, with Alien Soldier pushing the hardware too far (it DOES flicker badly) and playing tedious, Light Crusader being an unatmospheric and audio-visually mediocre Landstalker clone and the gameplay-wise average Yu Yu Hakushu.

Treasure did visually good stuff, but I would never put them on the same level as Factor 5, wher always visuals, sound and gameplay went hand in hand; well, save for their latest game Lair.

I'll agree to disagree on this one.


Factor 5 ooooowns Treasure,i like turrican and i hate alien soldier.

Pfft. Alien Soldier is a masterpiece. You just don't get it.

[Mr Smith]

108 Stars Vs Zebbe - Round 2
In this epic duel, A Swedish android who has learned to love takes on the German Kaiser in an all out battle to the death. After their Round 1 RPG clash, which took place over many of Sega-16's threads, ended in a draw, we now move on to the colossal realm of arguing over soccer/football games. Who will deliver the knockout blow? Who else cares? Is the true winner of their fights Joe Redifer (who is a king among men)? And what does the "buddy list" actually do? All of these answers to be revealed as this titanic struggle unfolds. :D

[Zebbe]

From the FAQ:


The buddy list is used to keep track of the friends you have made on this forum. By going to your "My vB Home", you'll be able to see which of your friends are currently online, and be able to send them a private message. Adding people to your buddy list also allow you to send private messages to multiple forum members at the same time. You may add any member of the forums to your buddy list by clicking this button in a member's posts.

[jumbo11]

Fantastic article!!!!

ISS is the best.

I didn't know Genesis has so many footy games. I remember Kick-Off but never knew it was on Genesis.

Thanks for posting this. :)

[The Sports Guy]

the only soccer games that are really worth more than a five rating are the later FIFA series, especially the one with indoor soccer. I loved that, got it as a christmas present! Other than that, most of the games are pretty bad.

Zebbe and 108: you guys gotta realize whats worth arguing about and whats not. I also hope you guys arent seriously PO'd about that. I can think of at least 50 titles for MD that are better than turrican and TF IV. TF II is the only good TF. there, im stepping out of it.

[Zebbe]

Okay, tell me those 50 titles that are better than Thunder Force IV...

[The Sports Guy]

Okay, I sware i had 50 titles, listed, but i bumped a freakin bookmark and it loaded the page and erased the post. I will write them out before the end of the day. I just think that TF IV one of those games that is too hard for its own good.

[108 Stars]

Okay, if you think so. I think Contra Hard Corps was far better in all apartments, except for maybe the colours.

Yeah, butand Contra was developed over a year later.




What makes it better?
Mostly the smoother controls. And the 8-player tournaments, which I believe were missing in the SNES version.
Well, besides that, it is just an excellent port. It looks almost the same as the SNES-port, even though the SNES-game would have seemed impossible in theory, seeing that it outnumbered the sprites the MD can show at once. They managed to get it done smoothly, they even included quite a lot of nice commentary, tricking the MD to do 2 digi-channels.

What I like better about this football than the competition on MD is the very good balance of good, realistic graphics and sound with good gameplay. FIFA was good too, but it suffered from slowdowns. Sensible Soccer was also great fun, but the graphics looked like a Master System game.




Hülsbeck is great, yes, but compare Mega Turrican to Thunder Force III or IV, production-wise. While MT sounds like Gems and is far better on Amiga, TF series shows what the MD sound hardware can do with its synth solos and metal riffs.

I agree that the Amiga port sounds better, but I disagree that MT sounds like Gems. MT had a production-wise good soundtrack on MD too. TF IV has a nice soundtrack too, I agree.


Pfft. Alien Soldier is a masterpiece. You just don't get it.

That´s probably why Alien Soldier has been ignored by the gaming world?
It´s got some technical aspects, although suffering from flickering beginning in level 1. And that is not maximizing the hardware, that is pushing it too far. Don´t tell me you don´t have the flickering when there´s action. The gameplay was just mediocre, it was boring try-and-error; far from a masterpiece. Contra is better (even on NES), MT is better, ST is better, Rendering Ranger is better, Gunstar Heroes is better. The bosses were impressive in technical ways, but had a bad visual design.
This game is definately not a masterpiece.

What does that mean? Obviously that tastes are very different. Just because you don´t like their games much doesn´t take away any of Factor 5´s technical excellency. This is an usually undisputed fact in the gaming world. Treasure was known for that too, especially because of Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier. But please don´t turn a blind eye to the flaws Treasure´s products had too, they did not reach technical perfection either. And both AS and GH were made AFTER MT, that´s important too. Who knows how good MT 2 would have looked, had Sega not dropped MD-support?

[Zebbe]

That´s probably why Alien Soldier has been ignored by the gaming world?

Yes, sales determine if a game is good. And what determines sales? Production run, marketing, support for the console, release in all regions, having any prequels for example. Alien Soldier had a low run in only Europe, Australia and Japan, had probably next to nothing in marketing, was released after Sega dropped the support for the Mega Drive and didn't have any prequels to rely on.

If the gaming world has ignored the game, it is quite strange it got a re-release on PS2 and on VC. I wonder why so many are willing to pay such high prices for the MD version when everyone ignored it. Take a look at this link (http://www.sega-16.com/review_page.php?id=114&title=Alien%20Soldier) and this link. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/genesis/review/564342.html)
It appears YOU are the only one to give it less than 8.


It´s got some technical aspects, although suffering from flickering beginning in level 1. And that is not maximizing the hardware, that is pushing it too far. Don´t tell me you don´t have the flickering when there´s action. The gameplay was just mediocre, it was boring try-and-error; far from a masterpiece. Contra is better (even on NES), MT is better, ST is better, Rendering Ranger is better, Gunstar Heroes is better. The bosses were impressive in technical ways, but had a bad visual design.
This game is definately not a masterpiece.

A little flickering doesn't make the game being not a masterpiece to me. Final Fantasy VII isn't less of a masterpiece because it ripped off PSII, had super-dithered backgrounds and piss-ugly characters. I don't know what makes Alien Soldier "try-and-error". I don't even know what it is. Trial and error is something I know though, and if your brain can use logical sense, you don't need to suffer from trial and error in AS.


What does that mean? Obviously that tastes are very different. Just because you don´t like their games much doesn´t take away any of Factor 5´s technical excellency. This is an usually undisputed fact in the gaming world. Treasure was known for that too, especially because of Gunstar Heroes and Alien Soldier. But please don´t turn a blind eye to the flaws Treasure´s products had too, they did not reach technical perfection either. And both AS and GH were made AFTER MT, that´s important too. Who knows how good MT 2 would have looked, had Sega not dropped MD-support?

Even if Factor 5 have technical excellency, they can't compare with how Treasure have re-invented the run 'n' gun genre several times with their games. GH and AS were so full of new ideas and concepts. MT was just a regular run 'n' gun with the same formula as its prequels except for a grappling hook. GH was made around the same time as MT.

[108 Stars]

AS is in such high demand for one reason only: it´s rarity. It´s gameplay is worth nothing, and beside my rating below 8, it got very average ratings in magazines as well. THAT´s why it didn´t sell well. But now it´s a mysterious cult, so it´s hyped among Sega-fans who are blinded by their love for the MD. Not seeing the trial-and-error(EXCUSE my mistake)-concept proves that you must be blind: AS lets you play 2 minutes, be defeated by a boss and then retry those 2 minutes + boss until you got the right strategy.

It never re-invented run´n guns; it is just a pretty bad title of the genre that tries to impress by being based on boss-battles.

And of course heavy flickering and slow-downs make a game less of a masterpiece; especially when the visuals are all a game has to offer, like Alien Soldier. Style over substance.

BTW, FF VII ripped off nothing from PS II; actually, there is nothing original enough worth ripping off from PS II. A female character being killed is so damn clichee that no game, movie, book, whatever can claim being the inventor of the idea.

Factor 5 has gained it´s reputation as awesome developers with great technical and playable games, whereas Treasure has done mostly mediocricy with a nice, shiny look. nd look where Treasure stands today. n unimportant developer if there ever was one, not having had a true hit after the MD time.

I can´t believe how sickening bad your taste in games is sometimes, being blinded by visuals and completely ignoring bad gameplay.

Having that said, let´s end this discussion, since it is going to lead nowhere; it only came from you saying I was only liking ISS Deluxe for nationalistic reasons and that Factor 5 were amateurs. This stupid accusation alone makes the whole discussion worthless.

[TmEE]

Mega Turrican has really great music, but so does TFIV... but MT has better sound engine and nice clean samples give some edge to MT. I can't say I prefer one games music over another.

I like one football game on MD and that is Japanese one and only English title I know is "High School Soccer - Kunio Kun MD".... but I like one FC version more since its more funny with all the special moves and actions.

[Zebbe]

If AS attracts such high prices because of its rarity, how come Aero the Acrobat doesn't? Oh yeah, me and the rest of the people are blind. Blinded by visuals, and still enjoying the great depth of strategy we find in AS, but you don't. AS isn't more of trial and error than any other game of the era. How else would you expect the gameplay to be?

AS had more than being based on bosses: crystal clear voice samples, huge multi-jointed bosses, a very flexible weapon system that gave the player the ability to develop its own strategy, very unique controls and each boss is something new, different.

It is so obvious FFVII ripped off PSII. The deaths are both mid-game, both were female, the plot takes a big twist. Name me some books, movies and games that had that exact precision of a plot death before PSII. .

You have obviously not heard of Guardian Heroes, Radiant Silvergun or Ikaruga.

Too bad you aren't realizing that I play games because of the GOOD gameplay. If I was after visuals I would probably had left my MD in my wardrobe, continued playing my PS2 and bought a new gen console last year.

It's sad you don't know where to take something serious and where to take something as a joke. Technical aspects aside, Treasure has always led the innovation while Factor 5 has been making ports and unoriginal games.

[playgen]

Treasure definilty has a cult following, so its games are more well known and sought after. I expect if Alien Soldier had been developed by some other company there would be a bit less fuss over it.

While I've only played the Amiga original Turrican 3 I prefer it over Alien Soldier myself. Not sure I'd consider Factor 5 a consistantly brilliant developer though, the first two Turricans don't appeal to me, and the main games they've done in recent times, the Star Wars Squadran games are a bit too style over subtance, look great but some pretty poor level design at times.

Anyway both games have their merits, theres enough fans of both to show that neither are terrible games.

[108 Stars]

Zebbe, your view is so ridiculously biased and stubborn that I just want to stop talking about the matter.
Yeah, I say that you and those AS-fans are biased by the cult around Treasure and the visuals. It´s a worthless game really. I feel backed up by the reviews of the old days, when not every fanboy could post his own reviews and games were rated by people who really knew about quality. Back then it was rated average, just like it should be.

The PS II-/FF VII-comparision is a typical PS-fanboy-legend, it makes me laugh. Hero gets his love killed and seeks revenge. How damn original!

I say you are easily distracted from gameplay by shiny graphics, I see that with a lot of games you call great. Weren´t we argueing about Road Avenger lately? nd you call Silpheed great? Hahahahaha

And what about Radiant Silvergun, Guardian Heroes and Ikaruga? The last 2 of them were not great hits, Guardian Heroes was typically average, Ikaruga was a game for players of a dying console who ran out of alternatives.

Please don´t reply, cuz you´re driving me mad and bring this thread very OT. Also I wouldn´t wanna risk our friendship on such a silly matter.

[Zebbe]

How does old magazine reviewers make better opinion than mine? It's not like they are graduated video game journalists. At least no reviewers were in Sweden during that day. And if they were, it doesn't mean their opinion are facts. Video game reviewers don't ever know about quality, they only have opinion about what is quality. That is one major point you are missing. I'm far from a Treasure fanboy. I dislike that McDonald's game they made, find Dynamite Headdy quite annoying and have a hard time finding the controls in Yu Yu Hakusho great. I find it awkward that reviews are suddenly very important when it comes to AS for you, but when we are talking about PSII, it is the opinion of the game community that counts!

Just because I take gameplay over graphics doesn't mean I want my games to look like 2600 games. You may not like Road Avenger, but for me it felt like driving a real car, I have a driving license so I know what I am talking about. That was what made it fun to me, not the 16-colour graphics. Silpheed may be blockier than 64 games and Lego together, but I love the sound, the general atmosphere and graphical concept.

Guardian Heroes was very innovative being a 6-player brawler. Ikaruga was first released in the arcade and later ported to DC, GC and XBLA.

[108 Stars]

Hey, it was I who showed you the positive German reviews about PS II; it´s not like I was ignoring them because I disagree. But reviews are always made in comparision to game standards of their time, and obviously the RPG standards of 1989 were too low for me to be fun.
Alien Soldier was reviewed in 1995, after GH, Contra or Mega Turrican. Those games were the standard AS was compared to, and it failed.
Of course there is no specific education for game reviewers; but since they are paid for it, they are required to have great knowledge of gaming, so I trust them more to rate AS having seen all competitors than some unknown jerks at GameFAQs.
So, note that Factor-5 is not at all an amateur-group; in this case both the majority of gamers and the journalists agree. Even Tiido who is a MD-coder and programmer of our own sound engine calls the MT sound good. I feel that you just said all that to provoke me. And you suceeded.

Road Avenger just has a primitive gameplay; that´s not an opinion but a fact. It´s more primitive than Pacman! And Silpheed is like a big impressing intro with not much of a game coming after.

Sorry, Guardian Heroes played very mediocre, it was just a pretty boring game. Innovation does not equal quality. And Ikaruga was just another shoot´em up with one interesting idea; but not a revolution of the genre either, let alone as successfull or impressive as Factor 5´s Rogue Leader games; but I´ll grant you that some of it´s success comes from the franchise.

[TmEE]

Ikaruga sucks, FMV games suck...

There should be a arguing thread here, so Zebbe and 108 can argue forever. I'm not too familiar with Factor 5, but what I know about them is good.

[Zebbe]

It is odd that the RPG standard of 1989 was too low, but somehow Phantasy Star managed to be fun for you, even though it was released earlier. Just because a game reviewer gets paid for his work doesn't mean he is required to have great knowledge about gaming. Just look at Joe's example of GameFan and their reviewers who were complete jokers. How come you trust reviewers in some cases and some not? Could you show me those AS reviews?

I don't know where you get this "majority" thing from. Like there is a poll among all video game players in the world deciding what true quality is (Final Fantasy) or what game company which makes the run 'n' gun franchise with the most non-spectacular gameplay (Factor 5). I said they were amateurs to start a discussion on a very overrated game company. You provoke me when you are calling my opinions "sick" and "poor" and when you laugh at me because I like games you hate.

I don't care if Road Avenger has primitive gameplay: if still FEELS like I am driving a goddamn car and THAT is what matters to me. Silpheed has a great weapon system and awesome music and that is the only things you need to make a great shmup.

I still haven't seen a single Factor 5 game that is as innovative and original as anything by Treasure. Just because their games have great quality doesn't mean they push the genres forward, like Treasure does.

[108 Stars]

Maybe PS 1 was ahead of it´s time? Maybe it had much better balancing and better character design? Maybe it was much more original?

Well, I dare to say that German game magazines used to take their job more seriously than American mags; those always had a bad rep here for their generous ratings, especially towards sponsoring companies. Here every score had to be approved by the whole team, to avoid someone to give an overly good or bad score. Even big promoted games sometimes got bad scores, right in the same mag that printed the games´ ads.

How do I know about majority? How do you come to say Factor 5 is overrated? Ah, because you know that a large audience is rating them high amongst developers. And that is how I know that the majority of gamers seems to like Factor 5.

I´m sorry, but I find your opinions on RA and Silpheed just poor and proof that gameplay does not matters as much as you say to you. Feels like driving a car, blahblah...what a load of crap. Any half-decent racing game gives you that feeling...plus gameplay!

Don´t expect me to take the opinion of someone with love for such games serious when it comes to talk about how good developers are.

You also say things that are just plain wrong to prove your point; like the sound engine of MT sounding like Gems although it is really very good. And Alien Soldier is not more innovative than Turrican 1 was.

And no, save maybe Guardian Heroes, wich had mediocre quality, I don´t see any truly innovative stuff from Treasure at all.

I don´t laugh at you because you love games I hate; I laugh at you because you say on the one side that gameplay is most important, only to call those games who lack in that department great.

[Zebbe]

PSII was also far ahead of its time (eight years before FFVII...), but hey, you hate it if you want to.

Show me those full team reviews of AS.

How can I enjoy RA when the graphics are so piss-poor and it has no gameplay? It is still very fun to me. Silpheed has an excellent weapon system which is based on how well you play. If I played those games for graphics I could easily have found better games on later systems.

I didn't say the MT engine is bad, but I find it resembling Gems with a flat and thin sound. TF's engine is much richer and thicker. Your biggest problem is as always that you somehow think your opinions are facts that can't be argued about.

Treasure deserves all praise for their original weapon and co-op system of Gunstar Heroes. In YYH they had 4 player gameplay, which no other fighting game had at the time. In all of their games, there is always something you haven't seen before. Is there anything like that in any of Factor 5's games?

You are failing to see how I enjoy the gameplay of some games while you don't. If you think the gameplay of AS is mediocre, fine, but don't use it as an argument when I like that AS's gameplay, because your opinions are still opinions, not facts.

[108 Stars]

Could you please just let it be now instead of keeping this going and going?

One thing though: Not everything is about opinions. The sound-engine-thing is a fact, it´s not an opinion. MT´s soundtrack is technically not inferior to TF. Tiido is a damn sound enginner for MD, and he says MT´s engine is superior, so I trust him it is; let alone the better compositions in MT.
And also RA and Silpheed lacking gameplay is fact, not opinion. This does not mean you are not allowed to enjoy them anyway, but then don´t tell me your top-priority is gameplay.

Treasure deserves nothing. They are just one developer among many and do not deliver special quality. If you want to turn the slightest new idea into a revolutionary breakthrough that´s your problem, but that does not make the games any better. I live happily knowing that Factor 5 has made it further than Treasure; whatever we think and say, we can´t change each others opinion.

PS II 8 years before FF VII...yeah, but the release date was the only thing PS II was ahead of FF VII in.

Again, you started the argument. I can do nothing but laugh at your "opinions" because I find them so damn weird it makes me believe it´s April 1st. But this fight is what you wanted, so I hope you are happy.

Having said that, I´ll ignore this thread now, so no need to answer here; having spammed so much is enough.

[gemini_25]

actually there are 2 soccer games i think are better than sensible soccer and iss deluxe....J LEAGUE PRO STRIKER 2 & J LEAGUE PRO STRIKER FINAL STAGE!they are pretty similar but the first one has vertical visual, the other one horizontal. they were both developed by sega and distributed only in japan. I still play them and have so much fun...HIGLY RECOMMENDED!!!!

[Zebbe]

Well, Daniel, it has been fun arguing with you up to this point, where you started insulting me after a simple joke.

I live happily knowing Treasure puts innovation and originality over ports, movie-licenses and sequels in tired franchises that don't present anything new.

I am also very glad Square made a port of PSII for the PlayStation. Sure, the character design became worse, the challenge was gone and some gameplay was replaced by FMV, but most of the plot was still there at least.

What puts a smile on my face is Silpheed on a projector. It feels like I am in cyberspace controlling the ship myself. I move it and it shoots exactly where I want it to, unlike the Disney movie Kingdom Hearts where you collect ballz and the character aims at the enemies automatically if you press X.

So yes, thank you Daniel, I am very happy. Especially since I know the difference between spam and discussion and the fact that ALL Sega-16 threads go off topic sooner or later. I will also leave this thread now.

:)

[TmEE]

I wonder how big is the percentage of Zebbe's and Daniel's posts which don't have anything to do with football in this football thread ? 50% maybe ?

[Germ]

actually there are 2 soccer games i think are better than sensible soccer and iss deluxe....J LEAGUE PRO STRIKER 2 & J LEAGUE PRO STRIKER FINAL STAGE!they are pretty similar but the first one has vertical visual, the other one horizontal. they were both developed by sega and distributed only in japan. I still play them and have so much fun...HIGLY RECOMMENDED!!!!

Yeah, I think J LEAGUE PRO STRIKER FINAL STAGE is the best 16 bit soccer game. It's the only 16bit soccer game where the screen perspective changes as you move...well like the field is a single picture with one diminishing point and the angels get steeper the further out from the centre you go (but the foreground grass columns aren't wider than the back ones like it should be) - well that's the only way I know to explain it.

the soccer shootout is nice aswell

[starphaser]

hey, at least it was nice reading the discussion :b

[ary incorparated]

Okay, if you think so. I think Contra Hard Corps was far better in all apartments, except for maybe the colours.



What makes it better?



Hülsbeck is great, yes, but compare Mega Turrican to Thunder Force III or IV, production-wise. While MT sounds like Gems and is far better on Amiga, TF series shows what the MD sound hardware can do with its synth solos and metal riffs.



I'll agree to disagree on this one.



Pfft. Alien Soldier is a masterpiece. You just don't get it.

nah it is overrated with good graphics,the gameplay is a big rush end the credit you get for it is shit,its decent not a 9.

[Zebbe]

I think it is very fun to play. 25 totally different bosses never bore me.

[ary incorparated]

Yes, sales determine if a game is good. And what determines sales? Production run, marketing, support for the console, release in all regions, having any prequels for example. Alien Soldier had a low run in only Europe, Australia and Japan, had probably next to nothing in marketing, was released after Sega dropped the support for the Mega Drive and didn't have any prequels to rely on.

If the gaming world has ignored the game, it is quite strange it got a re-release on PS2 and on VC. I wonder why so many are willing to pay such high prices for the MD version when everyone ignored it. Take a look at this link (http://www.sega-16.com/review_page.php?id=114&title=Alien%20Soldier) and this link. (http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/genesis/review/564342.html)
It appears YOU are the only one to give it less than 8.




A little flickering doesn't make the game being not a masterpiece to me. Final Fantasy VII isn't less of a masterpiece because it ripped off PSII, had super-dithered backgrounds and piss-ugly characters. I don't know what makes Alien Soldier "try-and-error". I don't even know what it is. Trial and error is something I know though, and if your brain can use logical sense, you don't need to suffer from trial and error in AS.



Even if Factor 5 have technical excellency, they can't compare with how Treasure have re-invented the run 'n' gun genre several times with their games. GH and AS were so full of new ideas and concepts. MT was just a regular run 'n' gun with the same formula as its prequels except for a grappling hook. GH was made around the same time as MT.

Okay im not going to start a fued but the reason alien people want to see alien soldier released aggain is because 1st they never got past the first few levels and yes level 1 looks cool it al does and the 2nd reason is people look miles up to this game because they never played,finished it.The game is fun the first 2 rounds and has okay music but after the first 2 rounds the game repeats ist self but the game utilizes allot of trick's but more then 50% of the levels are inside and many levels are factory alike,the boss battles are too long the constant boss battelling is boring and the credit when you finished this is the weakest i ever saw.Still you could show off this game too snes owners because the animations are pretty cool and the graphics are good.

Gunstar is better.YuYu is also to expensive for the fun,its a fighting game with good drawn backgrounds with weaker looking characters and mediocore specials it doesnt keep you satisfied for 100 euro while vf5 and many others do for highly 60.MT is awesome good music fun game,Tf4 is superior to amiga and BTW amiga isnt a console its a pgc so doesnt count,quit comparing shit to amiga guys that thing is even superior too a snes.




I think it is very fun to play. 25 totally different bosses never bore me.

i played it 5 times too think the same as you but i only see it as a graphical standpiont and nothing more.btw i mean that constant boss batteling becomes boring why did they put levels in that game anyway.But if you enjoy it enjoy it i dont like it but im fine with you liking it ;) .Im agreeing with 108tie this time cause he see's it exact the as me and i never will rate a game a game 9 for just ist graphics(alien soldier) i rate it like a 7,5 .

[Zebbe]

The levels are meant to let you power up your weapons etc. And have the environments change slowly. I think the variation of the bosses makes it funny.

[TmEE]

I would find CHC very enjoyable, but the bosses don't die very easily... its just too much hassling to take one out. But other than that, its a very nice game.

[Zebbe]

Contra: Hard Corps? I like the bosses in that game. Except for Deadeye Joe the second time you meet him.

[TmEE]

Of course Contra: Hard Corps. I agree that most bosses are fun and creative, but its just it takes lots of hassling to get rid of any.

[ary incorparated]

Contra: Hard Corps? I like the bosses in that game. Except for Deadeye Joe the second time you meet him.

Contra HC is a gamer friendly game,its totally playable and i dont know what people find difficult in this great piece.

[TmEE]

I didn't say its difficult, it just takes time...

[ary incorparated]

I didn't say its difficult, it just takes time...

i didnt say you,indeed it takes time.

[Zebbe]

People are either too lame to beat the American version or too poor to buy the Japanese version. I bought and beat the US version, as it is better to be poor than lame.

[CRV]

I believe Tecmo did make "Tecmo World Cup" (that plays more like an FMV game than Tecmo World Cup 92), its just an unreleased title, like Ninja Gaiden.

The unreleased game was plain old "Tecmo Cup."

There's also Captain Tsubasa on the Japanese Mega CD.

[playgen]

Ok to sort this out:

Tecmo World Cup 92 - Released in Japan
Tecmo World Cup - The exact same game as 92, but this is the US released version
Tecmo Cup Football Game - The unreleased Captain Tsubasa with a name change and slight western makeover.

And as you say Cabtain Tsubasa on MegaCD was released in Japan. Thats all the Tecmo football (soccer) games.

[acdc]

THE GAME HURRICANS

ALSO A PLATFORMER WITH A FOOTBALL CLUB WHO USSES THE BALL DO DESTROY THE ENEMIES

[ary incorparated]

People are either too lame to beat the American version or too poor to buy the Japanese version. I bought and beat the US version, as it is better to be poor than lame.

true.

I like marcos football at best. i Hate soccer games overall,theyre so darn boring.

[jesus.arnold]

... simply because it was ported by Factor 5, a German amateur game developer who have brought us nothing more note-worthy than a Contra-clone.

Katakis
Turrican 1
Turrican 2
Great Giana Sisters
Enforcer - Full Metal Megablaster

All of these games are considered to be some of the best C64 games ever made, they regularly get into "top 50 C64 games" lists out of a game library of over 9000 titles.
Anyone with half a brain cell who has played Turrican 2 and compared it to other C64 games would know that Factor 5 are extremely impressive programmers.

All the Turrican games made after the C64 era continued to be very impressive high quality games, Rogue Leader on the Gamecube was one of the stand-out launch titles for the system and got praise across the board.

Mega Turrican is one of the greatest MD games out there, and the graphics may not be quite as good as some others such as Gunstar Heroes and Contra Hard Corps and such but are still much better looking than 98% of the other MD games out there.

Treasure are most definately one of the most overrated developers of all time, and you talk about Gunstar Heroes' ridiculously unbalanced weapon system as though it's something to be proud of.

[john8248]

Nekketsu Koukou Dodgeball bu-Soccer-hen (at least that's what GameFaqs calls it) is worth mentioning in this Soccer(?) forum. It's 4 player arcade-style soccer starring the characters from River City Ransom, Super Dodge Ball, and Crash 'N The Boyz Street Challenge. In fact, this is the same game as Nintendo World Cup. Good stuff!

[M4R14NO94]

ULTRA EPIC BUMP!!!11!!1!

Some little corrections: Dino Dini's Soccer has a Sensi Soccer style camera: Just press the Start button or in the pre-match options change Scale to Full. Striker has three camera modes: The one shown on the screenshot, a top-down view (Kick Off/Dino Dini's Soccer-like) or the pseudo top-down camera from Ultimate Soccer