Capcom: Genesis vs Arcade: how do the ports measure up?

[KenshiroX]

Just wondering what you thought about the ports of Capcom games the Genesis got.

[GeckoYamori]

Strider is the only one I'd truly deem worthy.

[playgen]

Ghouls and Ghosts and Street Fighter 2 are both great conversions

[GohanX]

Strider-Great, next best thing to playing the arcade

Ghouls and Ghosts- I haven't played the original enough to compare, but the Genesis version is good fun (and tough as hell)

Street Fighter 2 CE/Super SF2-great port for the Genesis. They control very well, although the color/sound limitations show though. I don't play these much because of superior conversions on newer systems, but if I'm go the go and I have a Nomad, they are wonderful.

Final Fight CD-Probably the best home version. The graphics aren't as nice, but the awesome sound makes up for it. Like Strider, it's the best thing outside of the original game.

I think that's all of the Capcom Genesis arcade games I've played.

[Joe Redifer]

Strider - Graphics were redrawn differently from the arcade, but it remains the most playable home port. I don't really count the PS version into this equation.

Ghouls 'n Ghosts - Redrew and/or omitted most of the graphics from the arcade, but some are still pretty faithful. Level 3-1, for example, is far more faithful to the arcade than the SuperGrafx version (as are the blowing trees in the first level). The game plays very well and sounds great! Should have been 40 meg.

Forgotten Worlds - A low memory, early effort with deleted levels. Still fun but really needed to be 16 meg. Music seems thin.

MERCS - Pretty good I guess. Never played the arcade. I think they deleted the two player ability.

Chiki Chiki Boys - Who the fuck cares? Answer: Nobody.

Final Fight CD - Friggin' great. Graphics drawn nearly identical to the arcade (minus a few colors). Plays perfectly. Way better than the crappy SNES version.

Street Fighter 2, etc - Reprogrammed by Capcom themselves instead of Sega, they just seem apathetic towards the Genesis altogether. I can't help but think that Sega would have done a much better job, especially with the sound.

Saturday Night Slam Masters - I haven't played this, but it was reprogrammed by Capcom themselves so it probably sucks.

[kallbrand]

punisher - looks and sounds crap but plays alright

mercs - better than the arcade IMO because of the superb 'original mode'

[Alianger]

Ghouls 'n Ghosts - Awful audio quality and some graphical details are missing, but it plays great.

I don't really care about the other ports :P

[Aarzak]

A few notes on some of these Capcom arcade ports:

- I believe the "Ghouls 'N Ghosts" port (worked on by Yuji Naka) was a 5 MEGA POWER cart as opposed to the 4 MEGA and under cart sizes that early Genny games used. I'm not sure though, but if so.........it still wouldn't have made it the biggest Genesis cart at the time seeing as Phantasy Star II (a 6 MEGA POWER cart) had been out on the Mega Drive long before the Genesis even reached our shores.

- The "Ghouls 'N Ghosts", "Forgotten Worlds" and "Strider" ports all seemed to use some weird sound engine that almost exclusively used the Genny's FM channels for music and most sfx, resulting in the music sounding rather subdued and flat compared to the original coin-ops and other versions of the same games. "Strider" however, being a later effort pulled things off much better on the music front, arguably beating out the coin-op's goofy-sounding, repetitive music.

- "The Punisher", a Capcom CPS1 coin-op and most likely Capcom's last-ever Genesis game, was farmed out to Sculptured Software and not done by Capcom themselves. It wasn't a very good port of the coin-op in many ways especially playability (what the fuck's with that stutter in the character's animation whenever they walk that's also reflected in the scrolling of the screen?), and yet another indication that Capcom didn't give two shits about the Mega Drive outside of Street Fighter II.

[tisurame]

The Genesis version of Chiki Chiki Boys is BETTER than the arcade. First of all, the music is better, really, just compare. Same music, but with MUCH better rhythm (and drums).

Second, you can collect the coins to buy items - seems silly, but it brings a whole new life to the game, since you need to wisely choose which one is fitting for a particular situation. The game is very hard, so this aspect is essential.

Graphics are also excellent, very similar to the arcade.

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

Chiki Chiki boyz seemed like a pretty good game. I never played the arcade version, but my main complaint is that it doesn't give you more lives. I hardly played this game but I might give it another chance. The capcom ports definitly could have been done better, but they are fun games and not too shabby compared to other games on the genesis. I love Saturdaynight slammasters, ghouls n ghosts, strider, final fight, never got too into mercs though.

[GameUser-16-32-128]

Chiki Chiki Boys was a great port of the arcade minus the 2 player co-op. Street Fighter 2 SCE and SSF2 were awesome ports. Yeah so the voices sound a little raspy, but I think Capcom did their very best. Ghouls'n Ghosts and Strider were splendid. Forgotten Worlds was quite fun. Final Fight CD has a great soundtrack but, shouldn't have been censored. Good job Capcom and Sega!

[tisurame]

What I dont like about the SF2 port is that is clearly a port from the SNES version, using even the same resolution.

[Aarzak]

Yup, it seems like the SNES version of Turbo (with both some necessary and subtle alterations here and there) or at least its code was used to whip up Special Champion Edition at the last minute, when up to mid-1993 a different conversion of SFII for Genesis independent from the SNES versions was being worked on from the ground up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVL7YGExg50

I wonder what the hell happened with this one and why it was canned during the summer of '93. In some respects its better than SCE, like character animation.

[Kogen]

Is The Punisher an arcade port?

[playgen]

Is The Punisher an arcade port?

Yep: http://www.klov.com/game_detail.php?game_id=9156

http://www.klov.com/images/11/1181242154103.jpg http://www.sega-16.com/review_images/687/7.gif

[j_factor]

I have seen Hong Kong multicarts with a "Super Pang" on them. I wonder if that's a hack port of Capcom's Super Pang, a.k.a. Super Buster Bros.?

I have always wondered why there was never a (legit) version of Buster Bros. for any Sega system (mystery copies of Buster Bros. Collection for Saturn notwithstanding). It's not as though Genesis couldn't have handled it or anything. The original was ported to the bloody Amstrad.

[KnightWarrior]

Ghouls 'n' Ghosts looks like the arcade version on the Genesis to me

[Iron Lizard]

It looks worse and sounds worse if you compare them side to side but you don't really notice because it plays so well and I never have to the time to take in the differences. It is one of my all time favorite Genesis games. Playing with a 6 button or arcade stick is my idea of video game bliss. I even went so far to get a Genesis to Pc controller adaptor so I could pay the arcade version with a 6 button.

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

What about ghouls n ghosts on pc engine versus megadrive, I have heard both sides say theirs is better. I have genesis version and it is very solid, but im getting lots of pc engine games now as my megadrive collection has almost reached full capacity, and there seems to be a lot of shared games between the two that are better on pc engine, but some are better on sega also.

[Iron Lizard]

Well its on SuperGrafx so it loses points right there. It is good and looks better then the Genesis though the music suffers. I like them both.

[tomaitheous]

Ghouls 'n' Ghosts looks like the arcade version on the Genesis to me

Sshh! For christ's sake man, don't say that! AirRaidX might hear you...<_< ...>_>....(OH shit)

[Aarzak]

LMAO, the first thing I thought about when I saw the G&G discussion escalating was AirRaidX, and I was actually expecting someone to chime in on him or perhaps he himself show.

Man..........that guy sure has become infamous over the 'net hasn't he? Ghouls 'N Ghosts and arcade/console comparisons are to AirRaidX what Shadow Dancer is to daminmance. :)

And I thought I was a bad enough arcade/console/hardware comparisons annoyance.........

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

lol. Anybody heard of the unreleased arcade game called tattoo assasins by data east, theres a write up on i-mockery about it thats hilarious. I kind of want to get it on MAME or something.

[tomaitheous]

LMAO, the first thing I thought about when I saw the G&G discussion escalating was AirRaidX, and I was actually expecting someone to chime in on him or perhaps he himself show.

Man..........that guy sure has become infamous over the 'net hasn't he? Ghouls 'N Ghosts and arcade/console comparisons are to AirRaidX what Shadow Dancer is to daminmance. :)

And I thought I was a bad enough arcade/console/hardware comparisons annoyance.........

:D. He is infamous.

This is the best comparison video of G&G for Megadrive and the arcade - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QXh0y8IobrQ .

[kallbrand]

lol. Anybody heard of the unreleased arcade game called tattoo assasins by data east, theres a write up on i-mockery about it thats hilarious. I kind of want to get it on MAME or something.

dont waste your time, its crap..

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

Ghouls 'n' Ghosts looks like the arcade version on the Genesis to me

Didn't you notice Arthur's feet as he walks through the grass on the first stage? Cmon

[Genesis Knight]

Never heard of AirRaidX. Guess I am an Internet Neophyte.

EDIT: His name is in eBay auctions (http://cgi.ebay.com/GHOULSN-GHOSTS-pc-engine-super-grafx-AirRaidX_W0QQitemZ350019382658QQihZ022QQcategoryZ4 315QQcmdZViewItem), so he must be famous. :)

[Joe Redifer]

Ha ha, gotta love 16-bit. He is a great seller.

[Melf]

IBTN.

16-bit is a great seller. I've bought many a Neo Geo and import game from him. Very nice guy.

[tomaitheous]

EDIT: His name is in eBay auctions (http://cgi.ebay.com/GHOULSN-GHOSTS-pc-engine-super-grafx-AirRaidX_W0QQitemZ350019382658QQihZ022QQcategoryZ4 315QQcmdZViewItem), so he must be famous. :)

ahaha that's awesome :D

[Rusty Venture]

I've bought stuff from 16-bit.

Good guy, but his prices are sometimes kinda high.

[Genesis Knight]

I've bought some stuff from him as well. Went smooth; I guess you don't get to be a 7K+ power seller with 99.9% positive for nothing.

[Joe Redifer]

His prices are also sometimes low. I bought Panorama Cotton for around $60 from him I believe. And Rockman in Megaworld or whatever the hell it is called I think for $49 maybe. They fluctuate, as now he is selling Panorama Cotton for $120 or something like that.

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

Graphically superior to the Mega Drive version, but is it "arcade perfect"...?
Very amusing detail noticed on the auction. Yeah Ive gotten from 16-bit many times with no real problems, but sometimes his prices are high so I quit buying from him. My friend who collects saturn hates him though. Accuses him and a few others of driving up prices on games.

[Rusty Venture]

I believe I bought both of my "Bare Knuckle" games from him (2+3).

Obviously they were priced to a point where they were acceptable, but I'm kinda bummed my BK3 is cart only (my BK2 is missing the manual).

I have nothing bad to say about the guy other than the sometimes high prices.

[kallbrand]

got my monster world IV from him many years ago.. shipping/delivery was very expensive plus I got customs on top of that :? never bought from him again

[tomaitheous]

My friend who collects saturn hates him though. Accuses him and a few others of driving up prices on games.

He must be part of the Ebay game seller cartel :D

[KnightWarrior]

Street Fighter 2 SCE sound close to the Arcade, but not the voices or the graphics

[parallaxscroll]

Wanted to know how Ghouls 'n Ghosts on MegaDrive/Genesis compares to the arcade? I gathered some screenshots, and also found some of AirRaidX's videos

Here are a few comparisons

Arcade CPS1 - 1988 - 32 megabits - video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_eHdYl9iv2g)
http://img517.imageshack.us/img517/9718/arcadegng1as9.jpg




Mega Drive / Genesis - 1989 - 5 megabits - video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voqEjvS3ka4)
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/228/genesisghouls1ew6.jpg


PC-Engine 2 / Super Grafx - 1990 - 8 megabits - video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYX-WQSwO_4)
http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/8154/supergrafxghoulsnghostsyl7.png


X68000 - 1994 - 32 meg
http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/7868/x68000gng1ey5.jpg

can you tell the difference?
http://www.imagepup.com/up/Ws7P_1208333539_GenesisGG4b.jpg
http://www.imagepup.com/up/iOaa_1208333285_rsz_ArcadeGGb.jpg
http://www.imagepup.com/up/RPMh_1208333505_SuperGrafxGG4b.jpg



Notice X68000 is the only one here that has the detail & color of the arcade.

I did not include the Capcom Generation 2 versions from Saturn & PS1,
or the Capcom Classics Collection version which is directly based on the PS1 version. They're all arcade-quality (unlike the Genesis & SuperGrafx versions) with extremely minor differences.

I loved the Genesis version when I bought it, and it was a VERY good rendition given that it was a launch game and only used 5 megs of space. Both the Genesis and SuperGrafx were capable of doing better renditions than they got, although they would've never matched the CPS1 arcade or X68000 because of the differences in hardware (Color, sprite handling, VRAM etc).

[Aarzak]

Yes, the comparisons have been beaten to death elsewhere, especially by AirRaidX.

If I still had a Genesis, I'd still keep "Ghouls 'N Ghosts" and "Strider" around despite there being better ports of the two already. They hold a lot of sentimental value, play really, really well and are arguably Genesis Games of the Year for both 1989 and 1990. Tell 'em Joe, tell 'em they moved Genesis consoles liek hotcakes and that they sold at a 1:1 ratio with consoles!!!

*does Muhammad Ali shuffle*

[tomaitheous]

Yes, the comparisons have been beaten to death elsewhere, especially by AirRaidX.


Is it possible AirRaidX is among us....(looks at parallaxscroll suspiciously)

[Joe Redifer]

AirRaidX has said said over on the PCEFX forums that the SuperGrafx version of Ghouls 'n' Ghosts is is even closer to the arcade than the arcade itself. Even the arcade isn't arcade perfect. ;)

Anyway, if Parallaxscroll is AirRaidX, then we should welcome him. He always posts cool scans and stuff. And if he isn't, he still posts great stuff.

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

Isn't there a strider for PC engine? Anyone know how that fairs versus the genesis version?

[Black_Tiger]

Isn't there a strider for PC engine? Anyone know how that fairs versus the genesis version?

There's an overall crappy port for Arcade Card CD, which may or may not recycle work from the rumoured SuperGrafx port.

The ACD version actually uses arcade background artwork for the graphics and isn't completely redrawn like the Genesis version. But the palettes used are awful, even though there's often a decent amount of shading, the ugly colors ruin it(unlike the arcade faithful colors of the Genesis port).

It still wouldn't necessarily be that bad, except that the scrolling is messed up. Whether or not its running at 60 or 30fps, the scrolling increments don't look right. I don't know how else to describe it other than jittery.

There's also more flicker than there should be, since lots of PC Engine games throw around more sprites without any problems.

There's an exclusive extra stage, but its nothing special.

The cinemas are okay and it has CD music, but I'm not a fan of Strider so I can't tell you how good or bad the music is in comparison.

Even if there weren't other great CPS ports for PCE, it'd still be obvious that Strider ACD was a real rushed job.

[Joe Redifer]

The PC Engine ACD Strider's controls are very light and floaty. The game also runs very slowly.

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

I see, Ill probably just stick with my genesis version then.

[parallaxscroll]

In addition to the Genesis port, I've got the port of Strider that came with PS1 Strider 2. It's exellent.

I've also got Capcom Classics Collection Vol 2 & Remixed for PS2 & PSP respectively, they have seemingly perfect Strider ports.

You could go with any of those and have basicly the arcade Strider.

[dragonboy]

Yup, it seems like the SNES version of Turbo (with both some necessary and subtle alterations here and there) or at least its code was used to whip up Special Champion Edition at the last minute, when up to mid-1993 a different conversion of SFII for Genesis independent from the SNES versions was being worked on from the ground up:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVL7YGExg50

I wonder what the hell happened with this one and why it was canned during the summer of '93. In some respects its better than SCE, like character animation.

is it just my imagination, or does that game in that video have some slowdown issues.

[Aarzak]

Nah, its just the video and/or the way in which the author recorded it. I've played the actual ROM many times, and its one and only speed is at "Champion Edition" speed, a.k.a the same default speed as the SNES SFII Turbo and Genesis SCE. No slowdowns whatsoever.

[Mark Robert]

Stirder is a good conversion. However, the Genesis version of The Punisher is a far cry from the arcade. I know because I own The Punisher pcb.

[Aarzak]

I agree. Although the Genesis port of "The Punisher" (which happens to be Capcom's last game for the Genesis) was farmed out to an American developer, Sculptured Software. Capcom themselves could've probably done a better job. Their ports of other CPS1 beat-em-ups such as "King of the Dragons", "Knights of the Round" and "Captain Commando" for the SNES were good and played well. Genesis Punisher not only looked like crap (SoR2, from late 1992 and also a 16 MEGA POWER cart like Punisher, looked MUCH better) but played like crap as well compared to the awesome coin-op. And, like SoR3 it was censored from the original too.

I admit I do like the Genesis' renditions of Punisher's soundtrack.

[j_factor]

Speaking of Strider (and getting somewhat off-topic), I just played the Amiga port for the first time, and, wow. Astonishingly bad port. What the hell?

[Zebbe]

It's a well known fact Capcom hated the Mega Drive/Genesis. They never gave their 100% effort in making a great game for it, but they did that many, many times for the SNES. If you don't agree with me, challenge me.

[tomaitheous]

It's a well known fact Capcom hated the Mega Drive/Genesis. They never gave their 100% effort in making a great game for it, but they did that many, many times for the SNES. If you don't agree with me, challenge me.

Don't confuse 'hate' with 'just don't give a shit about'

[Devil N]

Don't confuse 'hate' with 'just don't give a shit about'
In a way, that's worse.

[tomaitheous]

In a way, that's worse.

Worse, better, whatever. It's still different :)

[gamegenie]

Street Fighter II SE isn't so bad. Considering it's also the only CAPCOM game I own for Genesis. :D

[TheEdge]

I wish I bought Mercs, thats a great Capcom top down run-and-gun.

[Zebbe]

SFIISCE could have been far better. Higher resolution, better music, clearer samples, earlier release etc.

[Aarzak]

It wasn't so much the quality of the SFII ports (apart from color and especially sound, they were identical to the SNES versions from which they were ported from), but the utter lack of output from Capcom compared to their SNES output. Their purpose for developing on the Genesis was mostly to extend the popularity of "Street Fighter II". With Nintendo grabbing them from the balls and with the next generation of consoles around the corner by the time Capcom released their first, official Genesis title (SF2:SCE), this was inevitable.

Speaking of SCE, it wasn't in a higher resolution because it was ported from the SNES' Turbo, which used the same low resolution. As a matter of fact, all 16-Bit SFII ports (which originated from the initial release of SFII: World Warrior on SNES) used the same assets and resolution give or take a couple of things. As for sound......either Capcom really didn't know how to program sound for the Genesis (which I find hard to believe, since their CPS1 arcade board is more powerful yet similar to the Genesis hardware) or they were just lazy.

By the time the Saturn was released however, Sega & Capcom began sleeping together and made lots of......uh love. They showed LOTS of love to the Saturn and especially Dreamcast.

[Baloo]

By the time the Saturn was released however, Sega & Capcom began sleeping together and made lots of......uh love. They showed LOTS of love to the Saturn and especially Dreamcast.

I concur, they made like 15 Street Fighter and Marvel vs Capcom games between the two systems, along with a bunch of other stuff. And they sure didn't half ass those games, they were arcade-perfect ports. Why didn't they at least try to do that on Genesis!?

[Zebbe]

Speaking of SCE, it wasn't in a higher resolution because it was ported from the SNES' Turbo, which used the same low resolution. As a matter of fact, all 16-Bit SFII ports (which originated from the initial release of SFII: World Warrior on SNES) used the same assets and resolution give or take a couple of things. As for sound......either Capcom really didn't know how to program sound for the Genesis (which I find hard to believe, since their CPS1 arcade board is more powerful yet similar to the Genesis hardware) or they were just lazy.

No, wasn't it ported from the non-Turbo version? Whatever version it was ported from, it should have been the arcade, not the SNES-version. The CPS-1 system is far more similar to the Genesis on all accounts. Same main processor (10 MHz instead of 7.67), same sound processor, soundchip belongs to same Yamaha family. Since the arcade resolution was 384x224 the Genesis version should have used its 320x224 resolution, not the (S)NES resolution !!! Porting from the SNES is just one of the proofs I have for the "Capcom hates the Mega Drive/Genesis" theory. Another one is the fact that the first Champion Edition they sent to Sega for approval was EVEN WORSE and not half-assed, more like 1/100-assed!

[gamegenie]

what about Super Street Fighter II, I remember that game was multiplat as well. Did CAPCOM do a better job with the port for that on Genesis?

[Zebbe]

No, even worse. Sound isn't good this time, it is horrible. Still the NES resolution. Not as many speeds to used. Uglier boxart. Also, since they didn't use any compression, it takes up a massive 40 MEGA POWER, which caused a massive price as well. Fortunately, that with the fact that people already had SCE which is almost the exact same game except better and minus four characters, people didn't buy all the millions of SSFII carts Capcom made. They lost money on it, which was the exact right thing to happen. They hated the Mega Drive, after all!

[tomaitheous]

They used the low res to save memory. That doesn't mean it's a port of SNES version. Why would they convert the 68k original code to 65816 code, then back to 68k code? That makes no sense. The PCE port also uses the same low res to save memory. If it weren't a problem, they could have used exact sprites/tiles from the arcade without scaling since its mid res mode is almost identical pixel aspect ratio as the arcade. (Genesis 320 mode would still need some resizing)

As for samples, maybe their mixing up to 4 sample channels? Fetching sample data from 4 random access parts of rom from the z80 could have caused the sample playback bottle neck. TmEE's the z80 expert, he should disassemble the z80 driver and see what's going on ;)

[Zebbe]

A better way to save memory is to use compression.

[tomaitheous]

Low res + compression saves even more memory :D

[Aarzak]

Yeah, that's another reason why those ports were so cropped........to save memory. I think SFII had many firsts in terms of cart size.....first 16 MEGA POWER cart (SNES SFII: WW), first 20 MEGA POWER cart (SNES SFIIT), first 24 MEGA POWER cart (Genesis SCE), first 32 MEGA POWER cart (SNES SSFII) and first (and only) 40 MEGA POWER cart (Genesis SSFII). It was one of the first games which required lots of memory. That's why they couldn't port over the superior Super Turbo to Genesis/SNES: vanilla SSF2 maxed out the cart sizes already.

[Zebbe]

And still they could port over Street Fighter Alpha 2 later on to the SNES, which was 32 megs and the original came from the same arcade board (CPS-2) as Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo...?

[TmEE]

As for samples, maybe their mixing up to 4 sample channels? Fetching sample data from 4 random access parts of rom from the z80 could have caused the sample playback bottle neck. TmEE's the z80 expert, he should disassemble the z80 driver and see what's going on ;)

it only does 2 channels, and very poorly at that... 4KHz samples do not help with the sound quality either...

[tomaitheous]

it only does 2 channels, and very poorly at that... 4KHz samples do not help with the sound quality either...

Sounds like there's some other artifact to the 'voices' than just lower sample rate though. But anyway, doesn't the sound engine have at least 1 software channel for drums and such? Or is it 1 mix channel for drum kit and 1 channel for sample FX (being a priority system)?

[KnightWarrior]

So SF2 CE & Hyper Fighting for the Arcade was programmed in 68K??

Sega Prolly do a better port of CE on the Genesis..I wonder how would it look like

[Aarzak]

And still they could port over Street Fighter Alpha 2 later on to the SNES, which was 32 megs and the original came from the same arcade board (CPS-2) as Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo...?

They did so with the S-DD1 compression chip, which heavily compressed the data into a 32 MEGA POWER SNES cart. I still don't know how Nintendo managed to squeeze that one out of Capcom......hell Capcom washed its hands of that project here in the U.S which forced Nintendo to publish SFA2 themselves, as they did with "Mega Man 6" years earlier for the NES. Both were Capcom's last U.S releases for both consoles.

The S-DD1 chip wasn't introduced until 1996 with "Star Ocean", so that may have been why no Super Turbo port was made in '94/'95. Plus SSF2 BOMBING in sales in the U.S.

And considering that Capcom could barely if all compress SSF2 on the Genesis, shoehorning it into a 40 MEGA POWER cart, there was no hope whatsoever for any more SF ports, much less CPS2 ports on the Genny. That might've been another factor........the hardware of the then-new CPS2 was more compatible with the SNES (especially sound-wise) than the Genesis, but the CPS2 greatly outclassed both so Capcom & SNK (whose Neo games were way over 100 MEGA POWER by that point) weaned off SNES/Genesis development by the end of 1994, and killed time developing on the 3DO until the PS1 & Saturn came out. Of course they still developed for the SNES well into 1996.........just not SF, but action games. And they threw one last bone at Genesis owners: a disappointing, farmed-out port of "The Punisher".

[TmEE]

Sounds like there's some other artifact to the 'voices' than just lower sample rate though. But anyway, doesn't the sound engine have at least 1 software channel for drums and such? Or is it 1 mix channel for drum kit and 1 channel for sample FX (being a priority system)?

The other artifacting is caused by extremely uneven playback rate, the sound code is very poor... the PCM code is not as poor as in TecnoSoft sound engine though, but that makes it up with incredible FM handling, and SSF2 driver not...
The game's BGMs do not touch PCM channels at all in case of SSF2...

Capcom had extremely poor code for sound.... the reason Rockman MegaWorld sounds better in all areas is because it uses SMPS (what Sonic games use for example) not Capcoms own shitty engine.

I agree with Zebbe that Capcom never liked MD... only thing they did that's above average is RMMW... though they could have had more optimized C code so there would be less slowdown (which is redicolous).

[Zebbe]

They did so with the S-DD1 compression chip, which heavily compressed the data into a 32 MEGA POWER SNES cart. I still don't know how Nintendo managed to squeeze that one out of Capcom......hell Capcom washed its hands of that project here in the U.S which forced Nintendo to publish SFA2 themselves, as they did with "Mega Man 6" years earlier for the NES. Both were Capcom's last U.S releases for both consoles.

The S-DD1 chip wasn't introduced until 1996 with "Star Ocean", so that may have been why no Super Turbo port was made in '94/'95. Plus SSF2 BOMBING in sales in the U.S.

And considering that Capcom could barely if all compress SSF2 on the Genesis, shoehorning it into a 40 MEGA POWER cart, there was no hope whatsoever for any more SF ports, much less CPS2 ports on the Genny. That might've been another factor........the hardware of the then-new CPS2 was more compatible with the SNES (especially sound-wise) than the Genesis, but the CPS2 greatly outclassed both so Capcom & SNK (whose Neo games were way over 100 MEGA POWER by that point) weaned off SNES/Genesis development by the end of 1994, and killed time developing on the 3DO until the PS1 & Saturn came out. Of course they still developed for the SNES well into 1996.........just not SF, but action games. And they threw one last bone at Genesis owners: a disappointing, farmed-out port of "The Punisher".

They had all these kinds of extra chips for the SNES (Mega Man X series for example) but not for Genesis, just some bank switching stuff for SSF2 which doesn't count. They put lowest possible effort when making the MD games, and they just skipped some conversions completely.

[Aarzak]

Well, "Mega Man X2" and "Mega Man X3" simply used a C4 chip, which allowed for some minimal transparency and wireframe effects that made very little difference in the games (I know because I owned these two rarities).

Most of the cart chips available for the SNES were developed or offered by Nintendo. Few developers came up with their own.

Sega chose not to go that route and instead made full-fledged add-ons, but that's another story.

In a show of karma however, Capcom barely touched on the SNES' successor N64, leaving it high and dry for the PS1 & Saturn. So did many of Nintendo's elite third-parties: Square, Enix, Konami, Toei. They all balked at the cart format and jumped ship.

[jetlag]

The game's BGMs do not touch PCM channels at all in case of SSF2...



I thought the music was all 6 channel FM. And when you need a sample it switches to 5 channel mode. Enabling the DAC.

In this case you can get the drums going (although FM).And on channel 6 you have either a chord member or sub melody.Anyhow something you won't miss or isn't important to the song during playback.

The snes has something similar playing the FX on the less important channels.

[TmEE]

I mean that BGM does not use PCM drums etc.... music is using all 6FM channels, but when its PCM time (some SFX), then the channel would get cut for the duration of SFX...

[Mark Robert]

I agree. Although the Genesis port of "The Punisher" (which happens to be Capcom's last game for the Genesis) was farmed out to an American developer, Sculptured Software. Capcom themselves could've probably done a better job. Their ports of other CPS1 beat-em-ups such as "King of the Dragons", "Knights of the Round" and "Captain Commando" for the SNES were good and played well. Genesis Punisher not only looked like crap (SoR2, from late 1992 and also a 16 MEGA POWER cart like Punisher, looked MUCH better) but played like crap as well compared to the awesome coin-op. And, like SoR3 it was censored from the original too.

I admit I do like the Genesis' renditions of Punisher's soundtrack.

The Genesis version does have a good soundtrack for Punisher. In fact, it uses the U.S. soundtrack version as opposed to my World version Punisher pcb that has a soundtrack that borrows heavily from Captain Commando. Like you say, the Genesis version of The Punisher not only looks lackluster but the controls are very stiff in comparison to the responsive controls of the arcade version.

[tomaitheous]

I thought the music was all 6 channel FM. And when you need a sample it switches to 5 channel mode. Enabling the DAC.

In this case you can get the drums going (although FM).And on channel 6 you have either a chord member or sub melody.Anyhow something you won't miss or isn't important to the song during playback.

The snes has something similar playing the FX on the less important channels.

That's funny. You're telling this to TmEE who wrote his sound and music engine for the Genesis ;)

[Aarzak]

The Genesis version does have a good soundtrack for Punisher. In fact, it uses the U.S. soundtrack version as opposed to my World version Punisher pcb that has a soundtrack that borrows heavily from Captain Commando. Like you say, the Genesis version of The Punisher not only looks lackluster but the controls are very stiff in comparison to the responsive controls of the arcade version.


Wait........the World version contains a different soundtrack or a different rendition of the soundtrack? Need to go check that out.

Genesis Punisher also lacks the Giant Swing move from the coin-op, replacing it with some lame triple throw.

[Zebbe]

Well, "Mega Man X2" and "Mega Man X3" simply used a C4 chip, which allowed for some minimal transparency and wireframe effects that made very little difference in the games (I know because I owned these two rarities).

Most of the cart chips available for the SNES were developed or offered by Nintendo. Few developers came up with their own.

I guess you are right on that one... Fact remains, they did develop 9 games for MD/Gen (of which Sega handled some...) and 34 for SFC/SNES. An enormous difference. And there was only one exclusive of those 9 MD games, which was a remake/compilation of old NES games + some extra levels... Yep, I still stand by what I said: Capcom hated the Mega Drive.

[tomaitheous]

Yep, I still stand by what I said: Capcom hated the Mega Drive.

Yup. It was pure hate. I mean, it probably had nothing to do with the small return on the investment of developing such games for the MD... Remember, this is Capcom of Japan and the MD was a distant third. But then again, PCE was #2 for a long time and Capcom didn't handle any (iirc) ports to the PCE directly. I guess Capcom hated PCE too.

<shakes his fist at the dirty bastards at Capcom of Japan>

I'm gonna have to side with Zebbe on this one.

Megaman X3 (iirc) has a embedded rom. Trying to dump the cart resulted in the device housing the embedded rom to self destruct. I have no idea if this is through a version of the C4 chip or not.

[Aarzak]

Very interesting video comparing the coin-op and Genesis "Punisher"......I want all of you guys to check it out. Video quality's superb too!

<<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/CAH_ZjukR8U&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/CAH_ZjukR8U&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Joe Redifer]

The Genesis version is definitely darker... and louder! It really needs some more MEGA POWER and perhaps some better programmers and artists, but overall not horrible, I guess.

[Aarzak]

The hits and sounds definitely lack the "oomph" of the coin-op. I like how the screen shakes violently after every big hit.

It may not show it in that clip, but the port really does control pretty badly.


There was a pre-production version of this port which looked much brighter and seemingly had more frames of animation, making it more faithful to the coin-op. It's briefly seen in this preview:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ot1G_DG20Q&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ot1G_DG20Q&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Iced Snowman]

As bad as a port that The Punisher is, I’d be lying if I said I hadn’t enjoyed shooting and dropping grenades on the thugs in two player mode.

When you are a fan of something, be it comic books or movies or whatever, you tend to find a way to like the trash spawned by it.

And after a couple of brewskis, nobody cared about the semi-responsive controls. :daze:

[Zebbe]

Yup. It was pure hate. I mean, it probably had nothing to do with the small return on the investment of developing such games for the MD... Remember, this is Capcom of Japan and the MD was a distant third. But then again, PCE was #2 for a long time and Capcom didn't handle any (iirc) ports to the PCE directly. I guess Capcom hated PCE too.

<shakes his fist at the dirty bastards at Capcom of Japan>

I'm gonna have to side with Zebbe on this one.


There was more than the Japanese market. Sega was always number one in Europe and for many years in the US. They had big potential there and the Sega port of Ghouls and Ghosts shows that, and even SFIISCE did. But when they pretty much only did half-assed ports, it's no big wonder they didn't get much return on the investment.

[crazyteknohed]

Level 3-1, for example, is far more faithful to the arcade than the SuperGrafx version (as are the blowing trees in the first level).

I'd like to stress that I am not AirRaidX in disguise, but I found the blowing trees looked much nicer and smoother in the SGX version than the arcade.

[j_factor]

There was more than the Japanese market. Sega was always number one in Europe and for many years in the US. They had big potential there and the Sega port of Ghouls and Ghosts shows that, and even SFIISCE did. But when they pretty much only did half-assed ports, it's no big wonder they didn't get much return on the investment.

When Street Fighter came out on Genesis, it was promoted with "Sega and Capcom team up!" With this image:

http://www.imageurlhost.com/images/bzthojd2y8hc5sxqdp2r.jpg

And yet, after plastering this image around, the next four Mega Man games (6, X, 7, X2) were all exclusive to Nintendo. Additionally, The Wily Wars didn't come out here (although it was on Sega Channel), nor did the non-SNES versions of X3. And in non-Mega Man terms they still didn't give Sega much support. What's weird about it is most of their SNES games weren't anything that the genny would have that much trouble with.

[gamegenie]

good find j factor. I didn't even know CAPCOM made a Mega Man game for Genesis. Well I just googled and it look like it was just for the Mega Drive. So they excluded North America.

I wonder if CAPCOM avoided releasing a lot of games for Sega because the Mega Drive was doing so poorly in Japan and that they probably thought narrow minded into thinking Japan gamers were the only ones existing.

If CAPCOM had shown Genesis more love, who knows how different the outcome the Genesis/SNES battle would have turned out. This back thought sort of ticks.

[Mark Robert]

The hits and sounds definitely lack the "oomph" of the coin-op. I like how the screen shakes violently after every big hit.

It may not show it in that clip, but the port really does control pretty badly.


There was a pre-production version of this port which looked much brighter and seemingly had more frames of animation, making it more faithful to the coin-op. It's briefly seen in this preview:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ot1G_DG20Q&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Ot1G_DG20Q&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

I also notice the pre-production version includes the martial arts baddie from the arcade which was completely taken out of the final Genesis build. :mad:

[Aarzak]

good find j factor. I didn't even know CAPCOM made a Mega Man game for Genesis. Well I just googled and it look like it was just for the Mega Drive. So they excluded North America.

I wonder if CAPCOM avoided releasing a lot of games for Sega because the Mega Drive was doing so poorly in Japan and that they probably thought narrow minded into thinking Japan gamers were the only ones existing.

If CAPCOM had shown Genesis more love, who knows how different the outcome the Genesis/SNES battle would have turned out. This back thought sort of ticks.

I doubt it would've made much of a difference. Capcom's biggest-selling franchise during the 16-Bit era was by far "Street Fighter II" (SNES SFII and SFII Turbo are STILL Capcom's #1 & #3 best-selling games EVER respectively, and even SNES SSFII ranks in as their 12th best-selling game:

1.Street Fighter II (released June 1992, SFC, 6,300,000 units sold)
2.Resident Evil 2 (January 1998, PS, 4,960,000)
3.Street Fighter II Turbo (July 1993, SFC, 4,100,000)
4.Resident Evil 3 Nemesis (September 1999, PS, 3,500,000)
5.Resident Evil (March 1996, PS, 2,750,000)
6.Dino Crisis (July 1999, PS, 2,400,000)
7.Devil May Cry 4 (January 2008, PS3, Xbox 360, 2,300,000)
8.Devil May Cry (August 2001, PS2, 2,160,000)
9.Monster Hunter Freedom 2 (February 2007, PSP, 2,150,000)
10.Onimusha: Warlords, (January 2001, PS2, 2,020,000)
11.Resident Evil 4, (December 2005, PS2, 2,000,000)
12.Super Street Fighter II (June 2006, 1994, SFC, 2,000,000)
13.Onimusha 2: Samurai's Destiny, (March 2003, PS2, 1,990,000)
14.Aladdin (November 1993, SFC, 1,750,000)
15.Devil May Cry 2 (January 2003, PS2, 1,700,000)
16.Duck Tales, (January 1990, FC, 1,670,000)
17.Street Fighter II' Plus (September 1993, MD, 1,650,000)
18.Ghosts'n Goblins (June 1986, FC, 1,640,000)
19.Resident Evil 4 (January 2005, GC, 1,600,000)
20.Onimusha 3: Demon siege (February 2004, PS2, 1,520,000)
21.Mega Man 2 (December 1998, FC, 1,510,000)
22.Lost Planet Extreme Condition (December 2006, Xbox 360, 1,500,000)
23.Final Fight (December 1990, SFC, 1,480,000)
24.Resident Evil Outbreak (December 2003, PS2, 1,450,000)
25.Duck Tales (September 1990, GB, 1,430,000)
26.Resident Evil Code Veronica X (March 2001, PS2, 1,400,000)
27.Dead Rising (August 2006, Xbox 360, 1,400,000)
28.Resident Evil (March 2002, GC, 1,350,000)
29.Mega man Battle Network 4 (December 2003, GBA, 1,350,000)
30.Devil May Cry 3 (February 2005, PS2, 1,300,000)
31.Resident Evil 0 (November 2002, GC, 1,250,000)
32.Resident Evil 4 Wii Edition (May 2007, Wii, 1,250,000)
33.Magical Quest Starring Mickey (November 1992, SFC, 1,210,000)
34.Resident Evil DC Dual Shock (August 1998, PS, 1,200,000)
35.Chip'n Dale Rescue Rangers (June 1990, FC, 1,200,000)
36.Dino Crisis 2 (September 2000, PS, 1,190,000)
37.Mega Man X (December 1993, SFC, 1,160,000)
38.Monster Hunter Freedom (December 2005, PSP, 1,150,000)
39.Resident Evil Code Veronica (February 2000, DC, 1,140,000)
40.Commando (September 1986, FC, 1,140,000)
41.Resident Evil Director's Cut (September 1997, PS, 1,130,000)
42.Super Ghouls 'n Ghosts (October 1991, SFC, 1,090,000)
43.Mega Man 3 (September 1990, FC, 1,080,000)
44.Resident Evil: The Umbrella Chronicles (November 2007, Wii, 1,050,000)
45.Final Fight 2 (May 1993, SFC, 1,030,000)
46.Street Fighter Alpha 3 (December 1998, PS, 1,000,000)

Then and now, the "Mega Man" franchise has had a dedicated, yet comparitively small fanbase that didn't produce much sales. As you can see, very few Mega Man games have cracked one million on more in sales (among the few include MM2, MM3, MMX), and before the 32-Bit era only their Disney-licensed games consistently broke one million in sales. So while the Genny may have missed out on quality, varied software, it wouldn't have made much of a difference in the war. It DID get SFII, which is what REALLY mattered at the time, and go figure: "Street Fighter II: Special Champion Edition" is amongst the handful of Genesis games to sell over 1 million copies:

Sonic the Hedgehog 2 (6 million)
Sonic the Hedgehog (4 million)
Aladdin (4 million)
NBA Jam (1.93 million in US)
Mortal Kombat 2 (1.78 million in US)
Street Fighter II: Special Champion Edition (1.65 million)
Sonic & Knuckles (1.24 million in US)
Mortal Kombat 3 (1.02 million in US)
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 (1.02 million in US)

[gamegenie]

^
I meant that collectively the "CAPCOM showing more love" part. Not just making a Mega Man for Genesis and calling it a day, but releasing their other IPs as well.

There would have been less incentive to go buy a SNES if Genesis also had some top CAPCOM hits.

[Aarzak]

Well, the tyrannical Nintendo of Japan during the 8 & 16-Bit days is to blame for that. They had the money, the stroke, the majority market share and they played their cards right.

[KnightWarrior]

I hate people on youtube..some of the Genesis/Arcade SF2 sound almost the same..but people still say the SNES version music is better

[Aarzak]

That's because a lot of people were introduced to SF2 through the SNES ports (World Warrior & Turbo), which sold a combined 10+million worldwide. Hence they're nostalgic about it.

[Aarzak]

I also notice the pre-production version includes the martial arts baddie from the arcade which was completely taken out of the final Genesis build. :mad:

Yeah, I noticed that as well. And the baddies are colored differently and more brightly.

There was another baddie taken out of the Genesis port, the skinny mohawk guy. And the giant robot bosses look completely different (and worse) on the Genesis.

[Da_Shocker]

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