HOLY @&#! (aka Genesis in Component) [Archive]

GohanX

02-20-2008, 06:06 PM

I know Joe and David have both done this already, but I thought I would share my thoughts on it. I ordered the one that is from Atlona, although it is the exact same one as the others sold, except that it already comes with a US power cord.

I picked up one of the many SCART to Component converters on ebay, and I just got it in and hooked it up to the X'Eye. All I can say is HOLY SHIT! I never thought the Genesis could look this good. It's so...colorful.

Everything is nice and sharp, and I can see more distinct colors. The colors are not oversaturated like with composite, and you can see lots of new details. I tried out Castlevania Bloodlines first, since playing it in composite makes my eyes bleed, it just looks like total crap. In component you can see lots of extra details in the game, it really looks nice now. Streets of Rage 2, Shinobi 3, and Beggar Prince are some other games that I tried that make a pretty good difference. Oddly enough, in the Sonic games it didn't make as big a difference.

I hooked up the 32x next, and noticed that there was a little bit of waviness to the picture in the 32x video layer. It's barely noticeable though, and it still looks quite a bit better than before. Virtua Racing looked nice, while Space Harrier was incredible.

I then popped Sonic 1 into the X'Eye, and loaded Sonic 1 on the Wii's Virtual Console to compare them side by side. Sad to say, but the Virtual Console looked just a tad better. It was slightly more colorful than the X'Eye, although it wasn't a huge difference. The inside of the transcoder has adjustments for the color, so you could probably boost it a bit to match the Wii's video, but I'm not going to mess with it myself.

I also tried to use it with the Genesis 1 using a 32x converter cable, and it looked great as well. I didn't notice any significant difference in the video between the two systems, although I would like to do some more thorough tests in the future.

Genesis Knight

02-20-2008, 06:26 PM

Yes, I should do this sometime.

evildragon

02-20-2008, 07:10 PM

I've done this also, I used the JROK kit, so it fits nicely in my system.

GohanX

02-20-2008, 07:16 PM

JDB

02-20-2008, 07:23 PM

Yeah, my original plan was to use a J-Rok encoder and build an external enclosure for it with a hacked SCART cable, so I could use the same S-Video converter for all my Genesi. Then I did some searching and discovered the Scart converters.

I also just did David J's audio mod to it as well. Piece of cake.

are you talking about the little dongle type thing with the 3 RCAs one one end and the scart connector on the other? If So, how did you connec thte scart from the back of the console (the one that wold have plugged into the tv) to the dongle? did you use a male to female converter?

evildragon

02-20-2008, 07:27 PM

are you talking about the little dongle type thing with the 3 RCAs one one end and the scart connector on the other? If So, how did you connec thte scart from the back of the console (the one that wold have plugged into the tv) to the dongle? did you use a male to female converter?
Um, they plug right in? :daze:

No adapter needed for their route.

JDB

02-20-2008, 07:28 PM

Um, they plug right in? :daze:

No adapter needed for their route.

oh, mustbe a different model to what i'm looking at

MN12BIRD

02-20-2008, 08:22 PM

so SCART and Component are basically the same signal? Either one seems like overkill on a MD if you ask me ;) lol j/p but S-Video would suffice for me!

evildragon

02-20-2008, 08:40 PM

No, SCART contains more than one type of signal.

Those converters convert RGB to Component video, which is Y/Pr/Pb...

ThunderForce

02-20-2008, 09:29 PM

OK so you purchase:

A SCART Cable.
A SCART to Component converter.

And that's it for Component?

Would be nice I can do that for the PSX and the Saturn.

evildragon

02-20-2008, 09:41 PM

Would be nice I can do that for the PSX and the Saturn.
You can. They got RGB SCART cables too.

Btw, PS2 already has Component out. ;) And since it can play PS1 games, all set.

Also, you can't use PSX anymore, cause Sony re-used PSX for a DVR equipped PS2.

GohanX

02-20-2008, 10:04 PM

http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-SCART-2-Component-Video-Converter-Format-Transcoder_W0QQitemZ220201955963QQihZ012QQcategory Z14965QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Just to clarify, this is what I got, except mine was branded "Atlona" and came with a 110v power supply instead of a Euro 220v adapter. All the converters on ebay that look like that are made by the same company, apparently.

It doesn't do audio, so you either have to run audio through the headphone jack/sega CD, or do an audio mod to it. See "How would I mod this" thread a few posts down, David J showed me how to do it on the last page.

And Thunderforce, that's pretty much it. Buy the transcoder, mod it with audio (requires only basic soldering skills) and buy the scart cables. As long as the system outputs RGB, you should be able to find a scart cable, although I had to get mine from European sellers. I have a SNES, DC, and Saturn cables on the way as well.

MN12BIRD: RGB Scart and Component aren't exactly the same thing (RGB is still better for older systems) but it's the closest you can get and use it on a regular American TV. To be honest I would have been fine with S-Video, but the component mod was easy and relatively cheap. I think I spent a total of $125 for the transcoder and cables for Genesis (doubles for Neo CD), SNES, Saturn and DC. That's only slightly more than a Jrok component converter for one internal system mod.

The only important system that this won't work for is the Turboduo, since an unmodified system doesn't output RGB. Also some models of the Neo Geo home system have really crappy RGB, but there are mods that can fix that. My Neo already has component, though, so no problems here.

Joe Redifer

02-20-2008, 10:47 PM

evildragon

02-20-2008, 10:50 PM

That's MY audio mod! I showed David J how to do it.

Also as far as Sonic on Genesis vs Wii goes, the Wii will interlace it's video. I don't think it can even run in 240p like the Genesis does. This means that the "inbetween lines" are being used and that makes it look like an increase in color. The inability for the Wii to run in 240p = automatic fail.
I thought progressive modes made it look better in color anyway, as each line gets hit by electrons 2x as much (60 times vs 30 times), making each line brighter and more vivid..

TmEE

02-21-2008, 01:37 AM

little OT : Is there any Component to RGB converters or I just have to get myself a dedicated DVD player and use it as the converter (and not use my PC for DVDs) ?

evildragon

02-21-2008, 01:40 AM

little OT : Is there any Component to RGB converters or I just have to get myself a dedicated DVD player and use it as the converter (and not use my PC for DVDs) ?
DVD's are stored as Component video, so watching it on a Component video capable TV is best. Anything else and it's converted.

ThunderForce

02-21-2008, 07:57 AM

You can. They got RGB SCART cables too.

Btw, PS2 already has Component out. ;) And since it can play PS1 games, all set.

Also, you can't use PSX anymore, cause Sony re-used PSX for a DVR equipped PS2.

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

PSX = PS1. :P

I don't have that huge PSX thing in my house, no need. I'm not upgrading to the PS2 anytime soon (not enough games for me to buy). I just went ahead and purchase another PS1 (this time it's JP).

They are SCART to Component converters with Audio out right? I need something like that. :)

GohanX: LMK when you get the Saturn SCART cable. I want to see how good it is. :)

Joe Redifer

02-21-2008, 12:48 PM

I have a Saturn SCART cable and it is pretty nice. Same goes for the SNES, Neo Geo and TurboGrafx-16

megabomberman

02-21-2008, 12:51 PM

These things never make any sense to me, I don't even know how many mods there are and which ones I should be getting....

So theres the sound one,
the overclock,
the region unblocker,
the scart,
And now this yolk?

Is that most of them covered?

TmEE

02-21-2008, 02:00 PM

also there's cartslot widening, LED change, TMSS removal... I'm also working on a different startup screen mod (I've got everything fixed on paper, now I need time to write the ROM and build the HW). Oh, and VFD tubes and blood mod :
http://www.hot.ee/tmeeco/MYSMD2.JPG
and few other tiny things...

DVD's are stored as Component video, so watching it on a Component video capable TV is best. Anything else and it's converted.

But in the end, our DVD players are connected to TV using SCART so its RGB... and TVs don't work on component, its going to be RGB, either digital or analog... conversion will happen in any case.

evildragon

02-21-2008, 02:01 PM

also there's cartslot widening, LED change, TMSS removal... I'm also working on a different startup screen mod (I've got everything fixed on paper, now I need time to write the ROM and build the HW).

But in the end, our DVD players are connected to TV using SCART so its RGB... and TVs don't work on component, its going to be RGB, either digital or analog... conversion will happen in any case.
This is true.

You'll need to find a DVD player that has RGB output capabilities.

TmEE

02-21-2008, 02:04 PM

All here have RGB output... SCART has been a standard equipment on most devices before I was born !!!

evildragon

02-21-2008, 02:15 PM

All here have RGB output... SCART has been a standard equipment on most devices before I was born !!!
What the hell are you talking about?

Weren't you asking how to convert DVDs to RGB? You made zero sense you know. :?

GohanX

02-21-2008, 02:25 PM

That's MY audio mod! I showed David J how to do it.

Ooops, sorry bout that.

Is your TG 16 modded for RGB? I had thought that they only output composite and RF.

GohanX

02-21-2008, 07:51 PM

I got the Saturn cable today, and I tried it with the Neo Geo CD as well (using the Genesis 1 32x adapter, hah.)

I tried the Saturn with Daytona CCE, Sonic Jam, and Street Fighter Alpha 2. The Saturn is nice in component, although I already had an S-Video cable so it wasn't as remarkable a difference as the Genesis. SFA looked the best I had ever seen it. Daytona was clean, although I've never thought the graphics in that version were great. I compared Sonic 1 again, and the coloring was better on the Saturn (even better than the Wii) but it wasn't quite as sharp. The sound effects are a little strange after playing the Genesis version, so I'd still prefer playing it on Genesis or Wii.

I pretty much knew what to expect out of the Neo Geo, since my MVS board has component. It looks almost identical to the MVS system with a Neobitz component converter, except that the image is dead center, the Neobitz is off center a tad. I never noticed that the Svideo on the Neo CD isn't all that great, but I sure notice it now. On the MVS, there isn't much of a noticable difference between svideo and component.

Joe Redifer

02-21-2008, 09:08 PM

Iron Lizard

02-21-2008, 09:17 PM

also there's cartslot widening, LED change, TMSS removal... I'm also working on a different startup screen mod (I've got everything fixed on paper, now I need time to write the ROM and build the HW). Oh, and VFD tubes and blood mod :
http://www.hot.ee/tmeeco/MYSMD2.JPG
and few other tiny things...

But in the end, our DVD players are connected to TV using SCART so its RGB... and TVs don't work on component, its going to be RGB, either digital or analog... conversion will happen in any case.

Nothing says dedicated to his MegaDrive like a blood stained board.

GohanX

02-21-2008, 09:54 PM

Yes, my Turbo is modded for RGB and my Neo Geo AES as well. Whazzat? Neo Geo already has RGB out, you say? That's right! But an RGB bypass needs to take place otherwise it looks like ass! I don't know how your MVS or NG-CD are set up, so they may look fine.

My MVS has a Neobitz component encoder, tapped directly from the RGB lines on the motherboard. Naturally it's a bit better than the Neo CD.

I need to get a modded Turboduo now.

TmEE

02-22-2008, 01:26 AM

What the hell are you talking about?

Weren't you asking how to convert DVDs to RGB? You made zero sense you know. :?

I wanter Component to RGB conversion... and DVD players I know all have Component input and RGB out. Read my 1st post in this thread.

evildragon

02-22-2008, 01:37 AM

I wanter Component to RGB conversion... and DVD players I know all have Component input and RGB out. Read my 1st post in this thread.
Your forgetting some of us are in America, where only a small amount have RGB out.

(Some do have RGB out here in America, but only via the Component Video jacks, and are SoG).

TmEE

02-22-2008, 02:38 AM

evildragon

02-22-2008, 02:53 AM

I need it just for myself.... I need something that makes RGB out of Component since my TV has no Component input (in fact, Component didn't exist when my TV was made) and I'd like to hook my new PC to TV too, but it outputs only Composite/S-vid and Component... I don't really like to use Composite/S-vid (which my TV has).
Your VGA port on your computer is RGB.

There's a wonderful program called PowerStrip that allows you to make it work on SCART stuff, as long as you enter the correct timings.. It's very manual and low-level.

Check out the compatibility and things.

http://www.entechtaiwan.com/util/ps.shtm

TmEE

02-22-2008, 11:19 AM

Seems interesting... thanks :)

EDIT : I found something very interesting : http://www.siliconchip.com.au/cms/A_101537/article.html

ThunderForce

02-22-2008, 11:53 AM

No one answered my question:

Is there a SCART to Component converter with Audio output? I need something like that since I'm in the US and the SCART cable has audio in there too. And I'm not going to Mod a SCART cable if there's audio in there in the first place.

Help me please!!!

TmEE

02-22-2008, 12:27 PM

SCART has RGB, Composite, S-video and Stereo Audio. SCART to Component converters should have audio out

ThunderForce

02-22-2008, 01:19 PM

SCART has RGB, Composite, S-video and Stereo Audio. SCART to Component converters should have audio out

The SCART to Component converters (the one that was linked overhere to ebay) didn't have audio output, which was stupid for starters.

TmEE

02-22-2008, 01:56 PM

if you have MD1 then the best choice would be headphone out since there's no Stereo on AV out... if its MD2, then some small-time soldering is required to get few RCAs from the SCART for audio purpose.

GohanX

02-22-2008, 02:21 PM

I was never able to find a SCART-component converter that had audio out. The mod to add audio to the Atlona/CYP boxes is really easy though.

ThunderForce

02-22-2008, 05:06 PM

I was never able to find a SCART-component converter that had audio out. The mod to add audio to the Atlona/CYP boxes is really easy though.

Who wants to mod it for me?

Will give you the greens if you do.

David J.

02-22-2008, 06:50 PM

Yes, I used Joe's mod... I never claimed credit for it, and if I did, I appoligize. I run my SMS, Genesis Combo of the day and Saturn in RGB. All look and SOUND fantastic when hooked up to a stereo.

ThunderForce, it's pretty damned easy to do, you cut up a wire, drill a hole in the case and solder three easy wires... It's not going to kill you or the device.

KnightWarrior

02-23-2008, 01:38 AM

Is it possible to hack a scart cable to make a cable to go in Component in...It won't display in compontent but a scart signal

Joe Redifer

02-23-2008, 02:15 AM

That question confuses me. SCART is not a format. RGB is not the same as component.

KnightWarrior

02-23-2008, 02:33 AM

I mean just Mod a Scart Cable for Component

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v112/MarioMania/MyPics/Danny-1.jpg

Joe Redifer

02-23-2008, 04:44 AM

The Saturn does not output component. It outputs RGB, Y/C and composite. It also outputs audio for those few who are interested in such things.

ThunderForce

02-23-2008, 03:35 PM

ThunderForce, it's pretty damned easy to do, you cut up a wire, drill a hole in the case and solder three easy wires... It's not going to kill you or the device.

I don't have a drill and I can't solder for crap. I prefer paying someone to do the job for me.

TmEE

02-23-2008, 05:22 PM

or letting friend do it for you.... or you have no friends who can solder ?

KnightWarrior

02-23-2008, 06:01 PM

I think it's possible to build a Component Cable for the Genesis..it will have an RGB Signal

evildragon

02-23-2008, 06:37 PM

I think it's possible to build a Component Cable for the Genesis..it will have an RGB Signal
Component will have Y/Pr/Pb signal..

RGB will have RGB signal.

SCART will have "many" signal including RGB.

KnightWarrior

02-23-2008, 06:41 PM

I know that dude..

I just want to see if it is possible by builing one..without buying a $200 converter

It won't be component...Just going in the RCA Jacks for it..

Joe Redifer

02-23-2008, 06:59 PM

What would be the purpose? IT WILL NOT WORK. In order to build a component cable you'd have to build an RGB to Component transcoder IN TO the cable itself which would probably cost a hell of a lot more than a stand alone $60 box that does the same thing.

TmEE

02-23-2008, 07:09 PM

Component to RGB is simple.... but I have no idea how easy it is to do it the other way

http://www.hot.ee/tmeeco/PICS/CXA1145.PNG

Only if you could get the output form the marked spot... that's the RGB encoder chip in MD (and many other devices)

Joe Redifer

02-23-2008, 08:00 PM

TmEE

02-23-2008, 08:54 PM

I don't really know how Component looks... anyway, in that chip, the image is made form RGB to Component and to Composite... and you can't get that Component from the chip unfortunately

KnightWarrior

02-23-2008, 09:12 PM

One day I was trying something with the SNES..I put the Yellow Video in the I think Green Plug on the Component side..it looked RGB but in Black & White..it was cool to do that..

ThunderForce

02-23-2008, 09:27 PM

or letting friend do it for you.... or you have no friends who can solder ?

Don't have any.

evildragon

02-23-2008, 09:29 PM

One day I was trying something with the SNES..I put the Yellow Video in the I think Green Plug on the Component side..it looked RGB but in Black & White..it was cool to do that..
It is far AWAY from being RGB.

You were seeing the distorted luma..

Joe Redifer

02-23-2008, 10:15 PM

Yeah, black and white isn't RGB.

Anyway if you stick the green cable from component video into a composite jack, you'll get a nice black and white picture.

evildragon

02-23-2008, 10:25 PM

Yeah, black and white isn't RGB.

Anyway if you stick the green cable from component video into a composite jack, you'll get a nice black and white picture.
Yep.

Though, I noticed some TV's will still have the Chroma decoder on, and this still gives a "soft" picture. Most however, when no chroma detected, will shut off the chroma decoder, giving a nice sharp black and white picture..

KnightWarrior

02-23-2008, 10:46 PM

GohanX

02-23-2008, 10:48 PM

I did have a plan to build an s-video or component cable for the Genesis.

The plan was to get a SCART cable, hack it up, and run the wires into a homemade RGB-S-Vid/component converter with the appropriate cable on the other side. It would have worked.

However, the transcoder I got does the same job, for all the systems, for much, much less time and money than I would have spent otherwise.

evildragon

02-23-2008, 10:55 PM

It was neat playing Street Fighter 2 Turbo in Sharp B/W...Now I got an Idea by Spilting the Video Yellow Cable, Find the wire for Luma, Chromo or whatever you call it on Composite AV...Make the Sharp B/W to Sharp Color
Yellow cable HAS NO S-Video lines.. It's all crammed into one wire.

What you saw was NOT sharp, it was blury, and "grainy".

KnightWarrior

02-23-2008, 11:18 PM

Ok, thanks for clearing that up

I just want a RGB Cable to hook up to Component in...Can I just spilt a Scart Cable to add the 5 RCA plugs in the SNES or the Genesis

evildragon

02-23-2008, 11:36 PM

No, you need an RGB to Component converter.. The signals are NOT interchangeable.

I don't have the patience to teach this all over again, if I continue, I might get rude..

I'll let Joe handle it.

KnightWarrior

02-23-2008, 11:50 PM

Alright, thanks man...

ThunderForce

02-24-2008, 11:45 AM

Once again who wants to mod the converter for audio out for me?

TmEE

02-24-2008, 01:30 PM

try finding someone in your local area who can solder... all this mailing and stuff is just not worth it.

ThunderForce

02-24-2008, 02:07 PM

try finding someone in your local area who can solder... all this mailing and stuff is just not worth it.

I have evildragon who's near me. I might bug him, but he's busy looking for a job.

TmEE

02-24-2008, 02:25 PM

the procedure is probably 15 mins so I think it will not interfere his job finding process much...

ThunderForce

02-24-2008, 02:32 PM

the procedure is probably 15 mins so I think it will not interfere his job finding process much...

The question is if he wants to do it.

Where online does it have the directions to mod the converter?

GohanX

02-24-2008, 03:35 PM

Thunderforce: I took some pics while I was modding. I can write up a guide when I transfer them to my PC.

ThunderForce

02-24-2008, 05:07 PM

Thunderforce: I took some pics while I was modding. I can write up a guide when I transfer them to my PC.

Thanks. What about you mod one for me (lol, I can pay you of course)? :)

GohanX

02-24-2008, 06:34 PM

I don't really like modding stuff for other people due to liability, and the fact that I'm still an amateur myself. On the flip side, if you've never used a soldering iron this is the perfect mod to start with since it's ridiculously easy and you can't really screw the transcoder up if you mess up. Worst case scenario you don't solder the connections properly and the audio doesn't work until you fix it.

Anyway, the how-to:

Here's the transcoder, fresh out of the box:

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=204&stc=1&d=1203895561

Here is the SCART connector side of the transcoder. Remove the two screws.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=205&stc=1&d=1203895636

Here is the component side. Remove the two screws on the sides, but not the ones in the middle.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=206&stc=1&d=1203895679

With the screws removed the unit will slide open. The plastic screw-looking things are for making adjustments to the signal, DO NOT TOUCH THEM unless you know what you are doing.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=207&stc=1&d=1203895854

Here is the underside, unmolested

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=209&stc=1&d=1203895955

GohanX

02-24-2008, 06:45 PM

Part 2 (5 image upload limit)

Here is the cable I used. You can use any RCA cable, just pick one of decent quality. I used a headphone to RCA converter, since the headphone part of it was messed up but the RCA connector side was high quality.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=210&stc=1&d=1203896149

You need to cut the cable, and strip back the insulation. Each cable will have two wires on the inside. The middle cable is the positive, the copper wrapped around it is the negative. The white one is the left signal, the red one is the right. The insulation on the positive side will probably be very thin, I used my fingernail instead of wire strippers to pull them off.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=211&d=1203896285

I will use Joe's pics from now on, since quite frankly I'm embarrased at my soldering.

Take the plate that goes over the SCART plug and file it down. The cable I used was thicker than Joe's, so I just cut that whole section off with a Dremel.

http://www.joeredifer.com/crap/scart2.jpg

Here, you just need to solder the RCA cables to the solder points on the board. For the ground connector you can twist the two grounds together then solder it.

http://www.joeredifer.com/crap/scart3.jpg

And that's it! Put it back together and plug your Genesis up and behold wonderful component glory.

ThunderForce

02-24-2008, 07:00 PM

That's it!!??

Damn that's easy, I can use tape for that (I use Tape for many soldering projects in the past, lol).

GohanX

02-24-2008, 07:36 PM

Yup. It took me longer to post that than it took to do the mod, heh.

ThunderForce

03-02-2008, 04:54 PM

Can we sticky this thread for Americans who want to get Component on RGB output systems (Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, etc.)?

This will slove the problem of us Americans which RGB output is not popular at all.

108 Stars

03-04-2008, 06:31 PM

Well, it is still not true RGB-quality.

Joe Redifer

03-04-2008, 07:20 PM

That depends on the display device. Technically there should be no difference in picture quality between component and RGB. They just go through different means to achieve the same thing, as I've said before. The color green is not transmitted at all in component, the TV decides that everything that is not there must be green and therefore displays it as such. This way component requires less bandwidth.

There are plenty of monitors out there where the component quality is ass. Same goes for RGB.

Dirt Ball Gamer

03-06-2008, 01:09 AM

Alright fellas, first let me just say that i am an idiot. Second no matter how many of these crazy threads I read i still feel pretty lost, I think i may need special help, I have zero experience with tech stuff and when i hear about soldering my knees shake. Can someone just lay it out for me what I have to do in easy steps for me to get the best possible signal with my current tv set up? I wouldn't be necesarily against trying soldering if it is unavoidable, but I just want the best picture quality for my gaming system and my laserdisks.

I have an older style television, I don't beleive it has component rgb input. I have a pioneer laseractive hooked up to it with the red, yellow, white (composite?). Is there any way I can get component to work on my tv with the scart to Y-U-V converter or any other way? Any help would be much appreciated. Since I have minimul experience I would prefer to purchase converters and whatever cables necesary over custum modding, but perhaps I should just upgrade to a new tv. Do HD tvs make it tough to play light gun games? Kind of a shame because I actually really like my old tv. So for the very best picture quality am i correct in assuming it would be component and not s-video?

Sorry, I know this has been discussed many times but I read them and still just feel confused as to how I can get my entertainment system set up optimully. Thanks, Sir Dirtball

Joe Redifer

03-06-2008, 03:04 AM

Your TV cannnot show any video better than composite (the yellow video cable), so it would be a waste to try. If you got a 32X with the proper cabling, it might clean up the video somewhat depending on which model of Genesis you have. HDTVs cannot play light gun games (except for cases like Time Crisis 4 which have a sloppy IR sensors that hang on your TV... lame).

evildragon

03-06-2008, 03:19 AM

Dirt Ball Gamer

03-06-2008, 03:38 AM

Well I have a genesis one HD graphic with sega cd one and 32x hooked to a different tv downstairs. I could get that one to go with a hd tv and work from there. So the laseractive there is no way for even s-video or anything better than composite? That sucks. I figured there might be some kind of converter I could buy to hook it to. What If I run the laseractive to a dvd player or something then run that out to the tv with rgb? Well that probably wouldn't change the laseractive output. Crap! I guess I can live with composite. Damn you laseractive! You cost a bloody fortune and give me "genesis-two" sound and composite video! You were supposed to be the future of home entertainment! At least thats what the infomercial style disk that came with it said. :)

Christuserloeser

05-29-2008, 10:34 PM

There really shouldn't be any differences between an RGB image and a component image displayed on the same screen. Component just uses a different means to achieve the same thing and conserve bandwidth. Component is not "degraded RGB". The only thing doing any degrading would be a crappy display device or some really crappy wires (or some other crappy device in the chain, like a Pelican component switcher).

Everything other than RGB is "degraded RGB".

Using the same picture, RGB-Scart looks MUCH better than component Y'PbPr. The advantage of the average component input is that it supports signals of higher bandwidth than RGB-Scart.

Progressive scan is NOT possible via RGB-Scart (RGBs). It is via VGA (RGBHV) though.

That doesn't change the fact that RGB looks better than anything else (composite, S-Video, Y'PbPr) as that's what all TVs work with.

With RGB, your TV doesn't have to convert the signal anymore; colors and details will be perfect. RGB also carries a black and white channel for each color.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rgb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/ce/Barn_grand_tetons_rgb_separation.jpg/180px-Barn_grand_tetons_rgb_separation.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Barns_grand_tetons_YCbCr_separation.jpg/180px-Barns_grand_tetons_YCbCr_separation.jpg

RGB left, Y'PbPr right.

Joe Redifer

05-30-2008, 03:00 AM

Look like you're just trying to start an argument or something. Believe what you like to believe. RGB does not carry separated luminance for ANY channel. All Genesis games are in progressive scan without exception. They still run in progressive scan via RGB. The only time I see interlacing is in Sonic 2.

You'll have to do better than Wikipedia. Also, do you even notice any difference in the top image from left to right? Same image, different means.

TmEE

05-30-2008, 05:16 AM

I need something that makes component to RGB... and higher res progressive scan be done using SCART RGB... your TV just has to like it.

Anyway, whatever inputs your TV has, in the end it will be RGB.

ThunderForce

06-01-2008, 05:03 PM

After purchasing the XRGB2 upscaler and a Megadrive 2 RGB cable I'll never use S-Video again. Best way for RGB in the US.

TmEE

06-01-2008, 05:34 PM

I've made a tiny component to RGB converter... its sucks a bit, green is too dark. Component is pretty good alternative to pure RGB.

ThunderForce

06-01-2008, 05:45 PM

I've made a tiny component to RGB converter... its sucks a bit, green is too dark. Component is pretty good alternative to pure RGB.

But noting beats RGB.

evildragon

06-01-2008, 05:46 PM

Then your converter sucks. Component has a nearly identical picture to RGB, and it's very hard to tell the difference.

Joe Redifer

06-01-2008, 07:24 PM

But noting beats RGB.
WRONG!!! Surely you have heard of the 16.7 connection? It has 16.7 million individual cables, one for each color, hue, etc and also a an extra cable just for luminance. RGB is crap compared to this since RGB has nowhere near the same bandwidth as the 16.7 connection. RGB is compromised video. Only losers who are poor and eat poop from the gutter use RGB.

TmEE

06-02-2008, 06:12 AM

then why RGB has dominated the PC world for a LONG time ?

ThunderForce

06-02-2008, 08:28 AM

Then your converter sucks. Component has a nearly identical picture to RGB, and it's very hard to tell the difference.

LOL.

WRONG!!! Surely you have heard of the 16.7 connection? It has 16.7 million individual cables, one for each color, hue, etc and also a an extra cable just for luminance. RGB is crap compared to this since RGB has nowhere near the same bandwidth as the 16.7 connection. RGB is compromised video. Only losers who are poor and eat poop from the gutter use RGB.

LOL.

then why RGB has dominated the PC world for a LONG time ?

Best it's the best you can go. ;)

Actually all arcade cabs runs in RGB.

Christuserloeser

06-02-2008, 10:06 AM

Look like you're just trying to start an argument or something.

What?

- The way I see it is that I am allowed to post what I want and you are not entitled to insult nor change the meanings of my posts to what you think they are about.

To clarify: I don't think that connecting a Genesis via a RGB-to-Y'PbPr component transcoder is a bad thing. Not at all. It's probably the best possible way to connect your Genesis to a regular US TV and easily worth the few bucks for the transcoder.

However, to say it would be as good as RGBs or even better is just wrong. Everytime you do take a signal of whatever nature and convert it to something else, quality degrades.

The XRGB2 is an exception but it isn't a transcoder or converter. As far as I understand it, all it does is to take an RGBs picture and upscales it to RGBHV so you can use it with VGA displays.

Here are some additional links with info on the topic:
http://www.gamesx.com/rgbadd/caveatrgb.htm
http://nfggames.com/atarilabs/meat/2000/1201_videoprimer.shtml
http://nfggames.com/atarilabs/meat/2001/0120_XRGB2.shtml
http://www.tiptonium.com/videogames/reviews/other/XRGB2.htm

Believe what you like to believe.

Of course I will! What kind of argument is that ? >_<

RGB does not carry separated luminance for ANY channel.

You are correct, it does not carry seperated lumincance. However, if you would at least take a look at the pictures I provided (for more than 1/10th of a second please!) you could see that it does carry the black and white picture along with it's R/G/B colors - unlike Y'PbPr which carries one single black and white picture and two color overlays, which the TV then has to combine and transcode back to RGB.

All Genesis games are in progressive scan without exception.

Is there any way that you can prove that the Genesis outputs in 224p ? What would that mean for an interlaced TV ?

They still run in progressive scan via RGB. The only time I see interlacing is in Sonic 2.

I haven't played Sonic 2 in a while but how the hell would you be able to see interlacing ? ALL TV, VHS, DVD and video game consoles do output interlace via their usual connectors (S-Video, Composite, RGB-Scart) and I can't see "it". Not at all.

The human eye translates changes within 19-21 still photos per seconds as "fluid motion". - How would you be a able to see 50/60 interlaced frames per second ?

You'll have to do better than Wikipedia.

Although I am aware that Wikipedia isn't perfect, I have to say that what you are providing to back your information is just laughable. Read: There is nothing! That's an F- I'd say.

The way I see it is that I posted some information about RGB vs Component, while you
a) started an argument
b) insulted me and other RGB users personally
c) made a complete fool out of yourself by
d) not backing up your statements/claims

Also, do you even notice any difference in the top image from left to right? Same image, different means.

Oh noes, you're right: There is no difference to the top image from left to right! But: That's not the point. Not at all.

Let's go back on my initial post:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rgb
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YCbCr

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/c/ce/Barn_grand_tetons_rgb_separation.jpg/180px-Barn_grand_tetons_rgb_separation.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Barns_grand_tetons_YCbCr_separation.jpg/180px-Barns_grand_tetons_YCbCr_separation.jpg

RGB left, Y'PbPr right.

This comparision shows how the final picture is achieved, it does _NOT_ actually represent the result.

WRONG!!! Surely you have heard of the 16.7 connection? It has 16.7 million individual cables, one for each color, hue, etc and also a an extra cable just for luminance.

Seems to me that you are just posting on how you think that things are, without having any idea on how they actually work.

16,7 million individual cables for 16,7 million individual colors ? Unlike ANY other sort of color encoding, RGB does sent out the three main colors (red, blue, green) of which ALL other colors can be composed.

Only losers who are poor and eat poop from the gutter use RGB.

What the f*ck is wrong with you!?

TmEE

06-02-2008, 10:15 AM

Joe was being sarcastic with his last post...

RGB does not carry black or white.... the black or white depends how low/high the signals is in the lines are... all 0 = black, all max = white... take green down a bit when others are max, you get bright pinkish color, take it to 0, you have purple... take the rest down't the purple gets darker and darker until its black...

Christuserloeser

06-02-2008, 10:20 AM

Thanks for clearifying that up.

Component has a nearly identical picture to RGB, and it's very hard to tell the difference.

Yup. It's not impossible but very hard.

Can we sticky this thread for Americans who want to get Component on RGB output systems (Genesis, Saturn, Dreamcast, etc.)?

Seconded.

Joe Redifer

06-02-2008, 11:30 AM

The XRGB2 is an exception but it isn't a transcoder or converter. As far as I understand it, all it does is to take an RGBs picture and upscales it to RGBHV so you can use it with VGA displays.
That would fall under the category or conversion or transcoding. It changes the signal. I agree that every time a signal gets changed there is at least some minor degradation that takes place. DVDs, for example, are component natively. They are not stored as RGB (keep in mind that I work in this field).

Is there any way that you can prove that the Genesis outputs in 224p ? What would that mean for an interlaced TV ?
It is actually 240p and this is common knowledge. All NTSC CRT TVs can display 240p (with the exception of some ancient Zeniths, etc). PAL CRT TVs can display a similar progressive picture. All that needs to be done is omit the "switch to next field" flag and every image is displayed on the same scanlines.

how the hell would you be able to see interlacing?
Very easily. Apparently I am able to notice more than you visually (this is not an insult, but apparently a fact). 60Hz interlacing is way too slow to be missed.

ALL TV, VHS, DVD and video game consoles do output interlace via their usual connectors (S-Video, Composite, RGB-Scart) and I can't see "it". Not at all.
Not all. The Atari 2600, NES and SMS are incapable of interlacing as far as I know. If you personally can't see it, that's fine. But if you were to get Sonic 2 and play the two-player mode, you'd surely be able to tell the difference between single player mode (other than the image being squashed).

The human eye translates changes within 19-21 still photos per seconds as "fluid motion".
Correct. But if that's all that were needed, then no game would have any reason to run any faster, would it? Most people can easily tell the difference when games run in 60fps or 30fps. Check out the video clip below (in either Quicktime or WMV, your choice). It is very short and features the same clip repeated once in 60fps then again in 30fps. Can you tell the difference? Many people can, some people can't.
Quicktime (http://www.joeredifer.com/crap/smbcompare.mov) - 1.86 MB
WMV (http://www.joeredifer.com/crap/smbcompare.wmv) - 2.16 MB
(Note: Your computer can't be super-slow ancient otherwise there might be hiccups in the playback).

How would you be a able to see 50/60 interlaced frames per second ?
Easy!

b) insulted me and other RGB users personally
No, I think you took it as a personal insult.

c) made a complete fool out of yourself
Nope.

Oh noes, you're right: There is no difference to the top image from left to right! But: That's not the point. Not at all.
Actually, it is. My point is that if you took an image, split it up one way to RGB, then to Y,Pr,Pb and then recombined them that you would not be able to tell the difference in the resulting images.

This comparision shows how the final picture is achieved, it does _NOT_ actually represent the result.
But the result is ALL that matters. I know it uses a different method to achieve the image. That was my point. Same image, different method.

Seems to me that you are just posting on how you think that things are, without having any idea on how they actually work.
I think I mentioned somewhere that my job entails all of this stuff.

16,7 million individual cables for 16,7 million individual colors ?
You actually thought I was being serious about that?

What the f*ck is wrong with you!?
If you thought I was being serious about that, then perhaps that is a question you should ask yourself instead.

evildragon

06-02-2008, 06:40 PM

All CRT TVs (except those said Zeniths), of the SD generation, CAN and DO show interlaced 480i, and progressive 240p.

Here is a demonstration.
240p
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/Evilweredragon/240p.gif

480i... Picture this interlacing 60 times a second.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/Evilweredragon/480i.gif

Joe Redifer

06-02-2008, 09:11 PM

Except that the animated GIF demonstrating the interlacing is much slower than 60fps, that is a really good example.

evildragon

06-02-2008, 09:16 PM

thats why i said picture it being 60..

that was the KEGA Fusion emulator in scanline mode.. when sonic 2 splitscreen is loaded, it actually interlaces like that...

Joe Redifer

06-02-2008, 09:18 PM

I was able to take your GIF and retime it so it animates about 2 or 3 times as fast, but I couldn't get it to be real 59.94 Hz. I guess GIF technology and web browsers aren't fast enough. Oh well.

ThunderForce

06-02-2008, 11:17 PM

You get interlace on the XRGB2.

evildragon

06-02-2008, 11:27 PM

That's because it's an upscaler and can't determine what's 240p and what's 480i, because to a scaler, they are the same (scalers determine a source by their sync, but 240p and 480i have the same sync). A fixed frequency CRT like an old TV, draws exactly "how" the sync is being transmitted.. thus they can achieve 240p and 480i.

So rule of thumb. NEVER trust a scaler.

Joe Redifer

06-03-2008, 12:44 AM

Same with HDTV's... they treat 240p like 480i. They ignore that "next field" flag altogether and just force it and then upscale that.

ThunderForce

06-04-2008, 10:22 PM

evildragon

06-04-2008, 10:32 PM

So do I, on a professional Sony PVM monitor...

The point? Component "looks" the same, and that's what matters.

ThunderForce

06-04-2008, 10:45 PM

So do I, on a professional Sony PVM monitor...

The point? Component "looks" the same, and that's what matters.

I don't like to carry a heavy monitor (I had one before). Plus the RGB connectors on those are really uncommon (for VIDEO). At least the XRGB uses the common SCART cables.

Looks, lol.

Joe Redifer

06-04-2008, 11:02 PM

So what exactly is your point, Thunderforce?

evildragon

06-04-2008, 11:09 PM

He has non. Cause the Sony PVM has standard RGB 75 ohm input, composite sync, OR SoG.

ThunderForce

06-04-2008, 11:12 PM

He has non. Cause the Sony PVM has standard RGB 75 ohm input, composite sync, OR SoG.

What's the inches on that thing?

So what exactly is your point, Thunderforce?

XRGB is the quickest way to get RGB in the US. Plus VGA monitors are cheap so pick up a big one and boom, RGB goodness.

Mister X

06-04-2008, 11:28 PM

Yeah, if your monitor supports the sync rate, and the sound of the horizontal oscillator doesn't drive you mad.

evildragon

06-04-2008, 11:32 PM

It's a 13" PVM.

http://macteens.com/gallery/albums/userpics/12094/2110.jpg

Joe Redifer

06-05-2008, 12:39 AM

Wouldn't Genesis video look pretty blocky on a VGA screen since it'd have to be line doubled?

Also I don't think the XRGB supports real RGB SCART. Remember, Japan has a different SCART layout for whatever reason (must have been the leftover radiation from Hiroshima that's affecting them). So I can't get RGB out of my Genesis and input it directly into an XRGB, at least according to the research I just did. I could only get VGA by feeding it a composite or s-vdeo signal or making my own special non-standard SCART connector.

evildragon

06-05-2008, 05:38 AM

It would look no different than an emulator.

TmEE

06-05-2008, 08:20 AM

The sharper and the cornerier(?) the better... main reason for RGB.

ThunderForce

06-05-2008, 09:14 AM

Yeah, if your monitor supports the sync rate, and the sound of the horizontal oscillator doesn't drive you mad.

XRGB upscales to VGA (640x480, 31 khz). Also there's no horizontal oscillator noise.

It's a 13" PVM.

Those monitors are uncommon. If I had one and by mistake I broke it, I'll be a pain to get it replace.

At least with the XRGB you can use any VGA monitor. A working CRT monitor is cheap and they are everywhere.

Wouldn't Genesis video look pretty blocky on a VGA screen since it'd have to be line doubled?

No since the XRGB does the upscaling job correctly. Plus it has one of the most important things for old-school gaming: SCANLINES. It makes the difference.

Also I don't think the XRGB supports real RGB SCART. Remember, Japan has a different SCART layout for whatever reason (must have been the leftover radiation from Hiroshima that's affecting them). So I can't get RGB out of my Genesis and input it directly into an XRGB, at least according to the research I just did. I could only get VGA by feeding it a composite or s-vdeo signal or making my own special non-standard SCART connector.

XRGB does support RGB. JP SCART is just the same as the EURO SCART except different pin layout. It still have the same functions never the less.

Genesis does output RGB. The easiest way is buying a Megadrive 2 SCART cable from Europe. RGB and it's cheap. If you have a SCART TV in the US just plug it in. If you have a XRGB2 you can either open up the SCART cable and reconfig the pins in the JP format or just buy a EURO SCART to JP SCART adapter (which I did, easier).

It would look no different than an emulator.

It looks better than the emulator (not as much, since I use Gens on a CRT monitor with fake scanlines).

evildragon

06-05-2008, 04:07 PM

XRGB does fake scanlines too dood..

Joe Redifer

06-05-2008, 06:52 PM

Genesis does output RGB. The easiest way is buying a Megadrive 2 SCART cable from Europe.
Ummm, yeah. I know. I have one.

I'd rather play on a monitor that supports 240p natively. No fake scanlines (real ones instead). No lag whatsoever (even though the XRGB is pretty fast). No nonsense.

JP SCART is just the same as the EURO SCART except different pin layout.
Only the shape is the same. They are not interchangeable. I can't buy a EURO SCART cable and use it with an XRGB without having to modify it because the pin layout is different. Fail.

TmEE

06-05-2008, 07:00 PM

240p compatible monitors are a bit hard to find I think... at least my Samsung syncmaster something LCD supports it. Too bad that it doesn't support 288p... heh, 240p support is not even documented.

evildragon

06-05-2008, 09:46 PM

240p monitors are highly common here.

we call them "video monitors".. that's what mine is.

this be my PVM's quality..

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v395/Evilweredragon/genpvm.jpg

ThunderForce

06-05-2008, 09:50 PM

I'd rather play on a monitor that supports 240p natively. No fake scanlines (real ones instead). No lag whatsoever (even though the XRGB is pretty fast). No nonsense.

I don't get lag on the XRGB2. The scanlines are perfect (you have to see it to believe it). It's no nonsense, seriously.

Only the shape is the same. They are not interchangeable. I can't buy a EURO SCART cable and use it with an XRGB without having to modify it because the pin layout is different. Fail.

They both can fit in with each other (a Euro SCART can fit in the XRGB2, but when you put it on you'll get a rolling picture). The pin functions are different from EUROs and JPs cables.

It's still never the less RGB.

240p monitors are highly common here.

we call them "video monitors".. that's what mine is.

this be my PVM's quality..

PVMs are not common.

Let me show you a picture of the XRGB in a sec.

Edit: Picture coming soon, need to recharge my batteries.

evildragon

06-05-2008, 09:54 PM

PVMs ARE common, in the media world, and you can still find them, because they still make them!

Stop being silly.

If you hook up your XRGB into an LCD and see scanlines, it's FAKE scanlines. Which is BS.

ThunderForce

06-05-2008, 09:58 PM

PVMs ARE common, in the media world, and you can still find them, because they still make them!

Bullshit show me proof boy.

If you hook up your XRGB into an LCD and see scanlines, it's FAKE scanlines. Which is BS.

1. LCDs are crap for old-school gaming.
2. Pictures soon, it's hard to tell the difference.

evildragon

06-05-2008, 10:03 PM

Just walk in any TV station.

Joe does media work, so he knows. I've been to the local FOX, they are loaded with PVMs.

Now, quit being a troll, and do some damned research before you bash. K?

ThunderForce

06-05-2008, 10:05 PM

Just walk in any TV station.

Joe does media work, so he knows. I've been to the local FOX, they are loaded with PVMs.

Now, quit being a troll, and do some damned research before you bash. K?

I want links.

I'm talking about the older PVM models.

And just because TV stations are loaded with PVMs doesn't mean it's common.

evildragon

06-05-2008, 10:12 PM

New PVMs are no different than the older ones, they have the same inputs.

http://www.ramapo.edu/news/mediacenter/images/jpg300/TVStudio.jpg
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/203/480449903_1cffd2a1a4_o.jpg
http://www.emergencyproduction.com/photos/tv_studio2.JPG

And yes, loaded means common. It takes a real man to admit he's wrong. Walk in ANY TV station or studio, expect to see a PVM.

ThunderForce

06-05-2008, 10:15 PM

New PVMs are no different than the older ones, they have the same inputs.

http://www.ramapo.edu/news/mediacenter/images/jpg300/TVStudio.jpg

Count the PVMs in that picture. I see a few, and it's not even a "real" TV studio.

And yes, loaded means common. It takes a real man to admit he's wrong.

Sony don't sell them to the public. "Commercial use only."

Except when TV studios, hospitals and video places want to dump their old PVMs they are not common.

I'M TALKING ABOUT THE GENERAL PUBLIC!

evildragon

06-05-2008, 10:18 PM

You can still obtain them second hand.

Just look around. Go on Craigslist, fleaBay, it'll be there, rest assured.

Look, I'm done with this thread, and staying out of it. Don't feed the troll..

Mister X

06-05-2008, 10:20 PM

Yup yup, there are scores of Sony PVMs on the East Bay Extortion Company for less than two hundred Americaland Funbux.

ThunderForce

06-05-2008, 10:22 PM

You can still obtain them second hand.

Just look around. Go on Craigslist, fleaBay, it'll be there, rest assured.

Look, I'm done with this thread, and staying out of it. Don't feed the troll..

There's none on Craigslist, and ebay there's a good amount of them. When it's common it must be everywhere. PVMs are not everywhere. If I have to resort to ebay for a PVM then it's not common!

That's why I didn't use the PVM route and went for the XRGB route instead. VGA is common.

ThunderForce

06-05-2008, 11:02 PM

Pictures!!

The Gamma setting is not on high (the way I like it). Camera is not the best BTW.

http://img293.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture001os6.jpg
http://img389.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture002qx8.jpg
http://img374.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture003to1.jpg
http://img397.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture004oq6.jpg
http://img517.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture005id4.jpg

Joe Redifer

06-06-2008, 02:59 AM

Looks good, but you need to adjust your monitor because you have overscan showing that shouldn't be on all 4 sides.

I use component video which looks just like that (sans the overscan) on a regular SDTV. SDTVs with component are still pretty damn common.

They both can fit in with each other (a Euro SCART can fit in the XRGB2, but when you put it on you'll get a rolling picture). The pin functions are different from EUROs and JPs cables.

It's still never the less RGB.

Now you're just repeating what I said. But a rolling picture is not acceptable. Just because they both fit in the same hole does not make them compatible. I'm sure that your penis and mine could fit into the same woman (at different times), but they'd make completely different babies. You'd need to modify the cable. This is why I have the RGB to YUV converter instead. Much less fuss, much less space required as well.

evildragon

06-06-2008, 05:50 AM

go to the monitors on screen display and post what it's timing information are.. all monitors with on screen displays do this..

i'll bet it's about 30KHz 120Hz.. Which if so, you technically can show a true 240p picture (that's about the only way to get a VGA monitor to show true scanlines as the gun will only scan 240p)

ThunderForce

06-06-2008, 09:00 AM

Looks good, but you need to adjust your monitor because you have overscan showing that shouldn't be on all 4 sides.

I like it with overscans. Not only that but when I play the PSX, Saturn, and DC on the monitor there's no overscan. I don't want to change the settings everytime I want to play the Genesis and transversa.

I use component video which looks just like that (sans the overscan) on a regular SDTV. SDTVs with component are still pretty damn common.

It is common. But for the set up I was aiming for was a 14 inch VGA monitor for my gaming needs. XRGB2 was perfect since I also get RGB from the unit as well.

Now you're just repeating what I said. But a rolling picture is not acceptable. Just because they both fit in the same hole does not make them compatible. I'm sure that your penis and mine could fit into the same woman (at different times), but they'd make completely different babies. You'd need to modify the cable. This is why I have the RGB to YUV converter instead. Much less fuss, much less space required as well.

Suit yourself. I still would aim for RGB if I can.

go to the monitors on screen display and post what it's timing information are.. all monitors with on screen displays do this..

i'll bet it's about 30KHz 120Hz.. Which if so, you technically can show a true 240p picture (that's about the only way to get a VGA monitor to show true scanlines as the gun will only scan 240p)

I think I said this information before but the timing with the XRGB2 is VGA (640x480, 31khz). XRGB output to VGA only.

It can't show a true 240p picture since the XRGB outputs to VGA. So how do I get scanlines? The XRGB2 can output the picture with scanlines if you want. If you turn off the scanlines everything will look like shit.

Joe Redifer

06-06-2008, 11:40 AM

Take a picture with scanlines turned off, I'm curious as to how it looks. Also, my TV is 20 inches and you usually don't see CRT VGA monitors that big.

Also, I am assuming you modded your SCART cable?

That is odd what you say about the overscan of PS1 and Saturn. On my TV the overscan is roughly the same for the Genesis as it is for the Saturn (though the Saturn usually has more picture area top to bottom).

ThunderForce

06-06-2008, 12:13 PM

Take a picture with scanlines turned off, I'm curious as to how it looks. Also, my TV is 20 inches and you usually don't see CRT VGA monitors that big.

They are CRT VGA monitors that are over 20 inches, it's called HDTVs. I don't like big monitors anyway. I like the screen to be like 14 inch so I can see everything. :)

Also, I am assuming you modded your SCART cable?

No, as I said earlier I purchase a EURO SCART to JP SCART converter cable from ebay.

That is odd what you say about the overscan of PS1 and Saturn. On my TV the overscan is roughly the same for the Genesis as it is for the Saturn (though the Saturn usually has more picture area top to bottom).

You should had looked at my Atari VCS/2600 when I had one. It was modded with S-Video and most of the games had some huge overscan issues. Wasn't that bad, but still it was there.

And because you asked here are the pictures. Not the best camera in the world, but it should be enough.

http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture006qe9.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture007ek7.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture008tj7.jpg
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8329/picture009zo8.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/6995/picture010av4.jpg

Joe Redifer

06-06-2008, 12:32 PM

I must say I am fairly impressed with the XRGB. I wish it did a couple things, though:

-Output to standard component
-Downconvert to S-video

TmEE

06-06-2008, 01:39 PM

http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture006qe9.jpg
http://img519.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture007ek7.jpg
http://img211.imageshack.us/my.php?image=picture008tj7.jpg
http://img66.imageshack.us/img66/8329/picture009zo8.jpg
http://img360.imageshack.us/img360/6995/picture010av4.jpg

These look so good. Right amount of overscan on top, not enough on bottom (about 6 lines missing). There should be 8 pixels up, 8 pixels down, and about last 8 pixels missing on last line on bottom.
I tweaked my TV and found a pot which lets me adjust the height of the screen... I tuned it to show a little bit of nothing to ensure I see everything :) Now if I could find something to adjust width...

evildragon

06-06-2008, 04:21 PM

There is a trick for VGA monitors (CRT only) to get a true 240p picture. Not a normally supported scanrate.

15KHz 120Hz..

It does work on VGA CRTs. (most, not all).

And that will have authentic scanlines.

ThunderForce

06-06-2008, 04:39 PM

I must say I am fairly impressed with the XRGB. I wish it did a couple things, though:

-Output to standard component
-Downconvert to S-video

I don't think none of the XRGB units output with component (the XRGB3 was made for HDTVs).

All XRGBs (including my XRGB2) supports S-Video inputs (heck even composite). So if you want to upscan it to VGA it's possible. It actually looks pretty good (in S-Video of course). Of course that's not the point of the XRGB.

These look so good. Right amount of overscan on top, not enough on bottom (about 6 lines missing). There should be 8 pixels up, 8 pixels down, and about last 8 pixels missing on last line on bottom.
I tweaked my TV and found a pot which lets me adjust the height of the screen... I tuned it to show a little bit of nothing to ensure I see everything :) Now if I could find something to adjust width...

I don't worry about it. It shows everything so that's what it counts for me.

There is a trick for VGA monitors (CRT only) to get a true 240p picture. Not a normally supported scanrate.

15KHz 120Hz..

It does work on VGA CRTs. (most, not all).

And that will have authentic scanlines.

And how that works?

evildragon

06-06-2008, 04:45 PM

It works because since the vertical sync is driven 2x faster, the video bandwidth equals that of VGA 30KHz 60Hz.

Check it: http://myhometheater.homestead.com/bandwidthcalculator.html

VGA: 640x480 @ 60Hz
240p VGA Trick: 640x240 @ 120Hz

Bandwidth will be approx 27.6MHz for both then. It's a trick of bandwidth.

TmEE

06-06-2008, 05:25 PM

but how would you double the vertical scan rate ? There's no way to make say MD output 100/120Hz without overclocking VDP, but that's affect horizontal scan rate too...

evildragon

06-06-2008, 05:28 PM

an upscan converter with adjustable outputs can do this.

perhaps the XRGB has an option to give custom entries.. (but also a reset button incase it doesn't work)..

The advantage to true 240p than fake 240p on a VGA CRT, is wider and brighter beam..

Christuserloeser

06-22-2008, 02:42 PM

DVDs, for example, are component natively. They are not stored as RGB (keep in mind that I work in this field).

Can you provide me with any source on that ? (other than that you work in this field)

And if that is the case, why does DVD in 480i via RGB look waaaaay better than via Y'PbPr ?

The only reason I can think of would be that the internal transcoder of the DVD player is better than that of the TV set.

- or that the MPEG decoder's output actually is RGB.

It is actually 240p and this is common knowledge. All NTSC CRT TVs can display 240p (with the exception of some ancient Zeniths, etc). PAL CRT TVs can display a similar progressive picture. All that needs to be done is omit the "switch to next field" flag and every image is displayed on the same scanlines.

Can you provide me with any sources on that the Genesis outputs 240p (instead of 224i) and that all (NTSC) TVs can display 240p ? - The way I understood it is that interlaced TVs can only display interlaced signals.

Now keep in mind that I am actually interested in understanding and knowing this, things like "this is common knowledge" and "I work in this field" don't help at all.

If you personally can't see it, that's fine. But if you were to get Sonic 2 and play the two-player mode, you'd surely be able to tell the difference between single player mode (other than the image being squashed).

Sonic 2's two-player mode is extremely shaky. It seems to run at half the frame rate of the single-player mode. AFAIK, Sonic 2 is the only game to use the MD/G's 480i mode, probably for exactly that reason.

But that's not the point. Regular TV (or Dreamcast or DVD via S-Video/RGB) uses 480i too - and in comparision to Sonic 2 in 480i, I definitely see a huge difference.

The point was that the advantage of component Y'PbPr in comparision to RGB-Scart is that the later cannot display anything higher than 720x576i - e.g. 480p.

The way I worded it was that "progressive scan is not possible via RGB-Scart". IF it's true what you claimed to be common knowledge and a regular SDTV indeed can display 224/240p than this statement would be wrong.

My point is that if you took an image, split it up one way to RGB, then to Y,Pr,Pb and then recombined them that you would not be able to tell the difference in the resulting images.

The Genesis generates the image in RGB, the TV displays it in RGB. If you convert it from RGB to Y'PbPr and then again back to RGB (as your TV does), the quality will degrade.

As I wrote in my previous post, that doesn't change the fact that a RGB-to-Component transcoder is the most affordable way to get a decent image on common US TV sets.

evildragon

06-22-2008, 02:57 PM

http://www.michaeldvd.com.au/Articles/VideoConnectors/VideoConnectors.asp

What's recorded on a DVD?
DVD stores a component video signal in digital format. Since this is the native video format that is stored on DVD, this is also the best format to use to display the picture, if your equipment is capable of dealing with this type of signal.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/240p

Older video game consoles such as the Nintendo Entertainment System generated a non-standard version of NTSC or PAL in which the two fields did not interlace, and instead were displayed directly on top of each other, keeping the orientation of the scanlines constant. This would be 240p and 288p respectively.

The NTSC PlayStation, for example, was capable of true 480i output, but most games used 240p mode due to limited graphics and CPU power [1].

More recent systems now always use properly interlaced NTSC or PAL, except when running games designed for older, but compatible systems. The PS2 generates 240p/288p if a PS1 game calls for this mode. Similarly, the Wii switches to a 240p mode in the Virtual Console for games designed for it, excluding the N64, for which games are rendered with 480 lines.

Just google it next time please.

As for you thinking DVD on RGB looks better than Component, either your TV sucks, DVD player sucks, or you are imaging it.