Genesis VS SNES VS TG-16

[ary incorparated]

Joe serious dk country was a milestone in history of gaming pre renders or not i amazed many people to just see good prerenders on a 16bit console dude its 16 bit and it looks great while limited in animations,no genesis title could match dk country graphics wise,vectorman doesnt have al the need tricks a snes has transparancy more colours etc on a limited basis,but as you see the snes can make a upgrade chip in wise to 10 mhz thats defnitly something,genesis could do need tricks too chip in wise but never did.

[Black_Tiger]

Black Tiger first off I used the word arguable for a reason and secondly name me a single Nes Brawler that is vastly superior to Golden Axe. Sure games like Zelda, Mario, Final Fantasy, Metroid are great but lets not compare apples to oranges. Also I never said Golden Axe was the greatest game ever. I still love it and still play it form time to time but of course it's not the best game ever. Please dont put words in my mouth.


You said that Legendary Axe felt like an NES game. Maybe you meant to say looked and/or sounded more like a turbocharged NES game (as others have mentioned) or something.

But the NES is loaded with tons of great games and 8-bit consoles is where 2D games finally hit their stride design-wise. Instead of being simple repetitive quarter munchers.

If you don't want to compare apples to oranges, then you shouldn't be comparing an action platformer to a beat 'em up. The only reason I can think of for EGM to compare them is because they both have "Axe" in the title.

I don't think that beat'em ups ever really excell past a certain point. There doesn't seem to be too much difference fun-wise between mediocre/pretty good repetitive/linear beat 'em ups and some of the better/great ones.

If anything, its the completely broken ones that stand out.

So the NES probably does have some that are about as good and in some cases, maybe even slightly better than Golden Axe gameplay-wise. But I don't think that many beat 'em ups on any format are vastly superior.

[Zebbe]

Joe serious dk country was a milestone in history of gaming pre renders or not i amazed many people to just see good prerenders on a 16bit console dude its 16 bit and it looks great while limited in animations,no genesis title could match dk country graphics wise,vectorman doesnt have al the need tricks a snes has transparancy more colours etc on a limited basis,but as you see the snes can make a upgrade chip in wise to 10 mhz thats defnitly something,genesis could do need tricks too chip in wise but never did.

Dude, listen to Shigeru Miyamoto, he created Mario and Zelda (and maybe Donkey Kong too, even though it's a complete King Kong rip-off and he is a monkey, not a donkey, weird...) so he knows:


Donkey Kong Country proves that players will put up with mediocre gameplay as long as the art is good.

And there is one Mega Drive game with extra chips (but no dipp) Virtua Racing. The SNES games overconsumed chips, that's why their players are so fat.

[InternalPrimate]

Dude, listen to Shigeru Miyamoto, he created Mario and Zelda (and maybe Donkey Kong too, even though it's a complete King Kong rip-off and he is a monkey, not a donkey, weird...)


Exactly what I was thinking. DCK itself is at best an average platformer, yet it sold extremely well. To be perfectly honest, I think MOST of what Rare has put out is overrated.

[Zebbe]

They did Battletoads, which is FAR superior to everything else they have made which I have played. It may lack ACM graphics, but is still better than DKC1-3 because of the gameplay.

[InternalPrimate]

^^^Absolutely. I'll forever love Battletoads, but Rare will most likely be remembered for Goldeneye, DKC, and to a lesser extent - Killer Instinct. Two of those titles (you will NEVER hear me say something negative about Goldeneye :) ) are nothing but graphics.


Forgot to mention Conker's Bad Fur Day. Another mediocre game that will be remembered for controversy rather than gameplay.

[Joe Redifer]

Although I am not a huge Battletoads fan, I'll take the traditional hand-drawn look of even the NES version over any DKC game any day. It's just more pleasing to look at than computer pre-renders.

[Iron Lizard]

Yes i can't figure why they would compare Golden Axe to Legenday Axe either. Who knows that was some time ago.

[Mr Smith]

(you will NEVER hear me say something negative about Goldeneye :) )

That's because you can't say anything bad about Goldeneye :D (unless you're a liar).

[ary incorparated]

golden eye was great for the limited n64,man couldnt that console handle textures that good or something it mostly looked very ugly,very furry or something i dont know the word for the porage in screen in most of the n64 games.DK country is simple at best yeah i have to agree that some pre renders found in dkc 3 are damn ugly like you watching a picture that does nothing,a good example of bad badd pre renders is killer instinct snes blech the most shit looking game on snes.

[ary incorparated]

weggie fills aids,the old kentucky farmer still thinks dkc is one of the best selling and top nintendo games in history and keeps falling back to the Gayboy advanced how the sales are and the other quility nintendo monopolyd a few years back.

[GeckoYamori]

DKC and Vectorman look like crap because they are too reliant on pre-rendered 3D models which have aged very badly. It all looks very plastic and lacks character. The best looking games of the time were the ones that used carefully hand-drawn graphics like Earthworm Jim or Aladdin, or the ones with less used concepts like the crayola graphics in Yoshi's Island and Kirby 3. THAT'S how you realize the full potential of 2D, not some cheapo imitation. Furthermore, rendered graphics have nothing to do with how much you can push a system. It was done on the bloody Master System with that horrid Sonic game.

Rare did a lot of good titles with more unique concepts during the NES era like Snake Rattle n' Roll and Wizards & Warriors 3 (Not much of a fan of the first two). I almost never hear people discussing these games, not even self-proclaimed Rare fans. After that they slowly started to shift towards complete bread & butter games with little that set them apart from the crowd, apart from some refinements like Goldeneye.

[InternalPrimate]

Furthermore, rendered graphics have nothing to do with how much you can push a system. It was done on the bloody Master System with that horrid Sonic game.


Sonic Blast :) I completely agree that the use of rendered graphics doesn't represent what a system is capable of, but I don't think that games that utilize them should be called "ugly".

[Zebbe]

Yoshi's Island and Kirby's Dream Land 3 use extra chips, which is cheating when it comes to showing off the console's abilities, IMHO.

Since I'm a n00b, can anyone tell me a little bit about pre-rendered graphics? I don't understand why they used it in Sonic Blast. It looks pretty much the same as the other Sonic games for the Sega Master System. And what is it that you can do with pre-rendered stuff on the 8/16-bit machines that you can't do without it? Does pre-rendered graphics surpass the console's limits, and if they do, how is it possible?

[Joe Redifer]

Basically they just render the character models on a high end computer... each frame of the character's animations. Then they digitize it to the game system software. I guess it is supposed to look better, but it doesn't. It was just a fad in the 90's when the game industry wanted every game to have crappy graphics like Mortal Kombat and Pit Fighter (which use the same process, but are real pictures instead of computer renders).

[ary incorparated]

Ultimate mortal combat is pretty good on the genesis sega saturn iu had a blast with that game, best 16 bit mortal combat game on the genesis in my opinion .

Sonic blast has the characters as pre renders how hard you can tell because the colours aren’t that much. Final fantasy games used pre renders in the backgrounds if I am right, just movies playing in the background to animate the characters+ moves as great as possible, even ff10 used the pre render trick to indulge some weaknesses of that game.

The best and worse example is clay fighter 2 on snes,thats what i call plastic or some of those homebrews on the genesis,mostly in these games the background isnt doing anything or not much or the characters seem stiff or are handdrawn like in the former ff games.

[Drixxel]

Yoshi's Island and Kirby's Dream Land 3 use extra chips, which is cheating when it comes to showing off the console's abilities, IMHO.

This point has emerged many a time through this thread, and it raises an important question..

Do chipped carts actually bother you? It's a popular point of ridicule against the SNES, suggesting that the hardware is inferior without the assistance of some underhanded means.

Here's one citation-less theory put forth on the SNES Wikipedia page..

"As part of the overall plan for the SNES/SFC, rather than include an expensive CPU that would still become obsolete in a few years, the hardware designers made it easy to interface special coprocessor chips to the console."

That puts a more positive spin on what is otherwise commonly understood to merely be a design relic of rejected SNES backwards compatibility.

Had Sega developed cartridge-based chips that expanded the Genesis colour palette or offered audio enhancements, would we be as quick to lambast?

[Zebbe]

Yeah, chipped carts DO bother me. If a game doesn't only use the original hardware, you can't say they are maximizing the usage of it. It's like when a sportsman dopes himself. That crap on Wikipedia is most likely written by a Nintendo fanboy. EVERYTHING of a console, and the console itself, becomes obsolete in a few years, so what's the deal? Just buy the processor once with the hardware and have the games cheaper, as the case was with Mega Drive/SNES games. And the SNES was slightly more expensive than the Mega Drive anyway.

I never include Virtua Racing when talking about impressive Mega Drive games, because it uses the SVP chip. If they included an extra colour palette chip I would judge that game the same way as I judge the SNES games with extra chips. I don't think any audio enhancement chip is necessary, the YM2612 is bloody fine the way it is, it's all about using it the right way. People dissing it have probably only played EA games on the Mega Drive.

[Drixxel]

But as far as the games themselves are concerned, the presence of an extra chip shouldn't cheapen your enjoyment of them.

Ultimately, a hardware strength pissing contest is pointless.. so what if Console X has "better this-'n'-that" than Console Y?

[Zebbe]

But as far as the games themselves are concerned, the presence of an extra chip shouldn't cheapen your enjoyment of them.

True, but the extra chip doesn't cheapen the price either, and the topic had changed into talking about which games use the hardware best, not how funny the actual games are.


Ultimately, a hardware strength pissing contest is pointless.. so what if Console X has "better this-'n'-that" than Console Y?

I don't know, maybe the games can be "better" in a specific way if they have more colours or use the power of Blast Processing? And that is the point, how good the games are, but it doesn't necessarily mean only the hardware tells that. I take the NES before the SMS, the Mega Drive before the SNES and the PlayStation before the Nintendo 64.

[Mr Smith]

But as far as the games themselves are concerned, the presence of an extra chip shouldn't cheapen your enjoyment of them.

Ultimately, a hardware strength pissing contest is pointless.. so what if Console X has "better this-'n'-that" than Console Y?

Go and play the Spectrum version of Golden Axe and then come back and say hardware doesn't matter.

[Drixxel]

Go and play the Spectrum version of Golden Axe and then come back and say hardware doesn't matter.

It's not that hardware doesn't matter, it's just that trying to prove one console's superiority over the other based on hardware strengths & weaknesses never goes anywhere. It's an argument started by rival promotional campaigns in an effort to steal market share.

[InternalPrimate]

I agree. History has shown that the actual power of a system really doesn't matter. Look at the PS2 and the DS. Both systems compete(d) with other consoles that were much more powerful.

But I think we're starting to move away from what the conversation was originally about. Personally, I've never had a problem with chipped games. It should be said though that besides Yoshi's Island, I never bought a chipped game new. Therefor I can completely understand criticism against the practice. Having to pay more for software later due to initial inferior hardware can be frustrating.

[Drixxel]

I agree. History has shown that the actual power of a system really doesn't matter. Look at the PS2 and the DS. Both systems compete(d) with other consoles that were much more powerful.

But I think we're starting to move away from what the conversation was originally about. Personally, I've never had a problem with chipped games. It should be said though that besides Yoshi's Island, I never bought a chipped game new. Therefor I can completely understand criticism against the practice. Having to pay more for software later due to initial inferior hardware can be frustrating.

The 16-bit era saw two different approaches to the "hardware inferiority" issue: 1) the inclusion of coprocessor chips in game cartridges, and 2) hardware add-ons. Both require a dollar investment, the only difference is how it's distributed.. a large, one-time purchase versus a premium charged on games.

There's a solid enough case to be made against the SNES with the "chips prove inferiority" issue when you consider that chips were appearing in games as early as the console's launch (Pilotwings), something that Joe keenly pointed out earlier in the thread. One could argue that the existence of these cartridge-based coprocessors confirms that Nintendo itself recognized the inferiority of the SNES hardware.

However, if this were the case, at least Nintendo was doing something about it. The chips provided an expanded set of possibilities to developers who otherwise may have been frustrated with the 65816 donkey. Had the enhancement chips not been made available, would gaming in the early 90's have been improved? Sega loyalists would likely think so, as the SNES would have been weaker competition and the Genesis would feed from its failure, but gaming as a whole transcends individual consoles. Without the various SNES enhancement chips, it's entirely possible that games like Pilotwings, Super Mario Kart, Star Fox, Kirby Super Star, Yoshi's Island, and Super Mario RPG would never have existed, at least not in the form they ultimately took.

[gaMEthuselah]

The fact that back in 1992, as a little boy, the Sega Megadrive was in my piggyback budget and the SNES wasn't, and the fact the salesman said it was able to produce better quality than the NES I initially had my sights on when I was out to buy a console.

And now of course, because of the plethora of shooters Sega's 16-bitter had available. I do also own an SNES now. I guess the 'loyalty' to anything Sega was bigger back then during those 'bitwars' than it is now. It makes me chuckle.

gMt - æ

[ary incorparated]

I actually dont care if its chip upgraded,what if a developer just needs a little extra,that he can make the complete game that is pushing the system graphic wise but needs some extra chip power for the music to make it seem like a saturn game for instance or extra ram to enhance the colours in screen,i atually dont bother snes did it so megadrive can.

zebbe if you hate chip in games do you hate the likes of story of thor or beggar prince too then those have chip in RAM.i can understand that you hate virtua racing i hate it too graphic wise.

for the future developers for the genesis go ahead and utilise ship in possibility im curious about the next streets of rage on genesis ;).

[Zebbe]

ary, I don't hate much (except religion, war, communism, Swedish Slackfare etc.). I just prefer they use the hardware they have as good as they can. The 3D stuff that went on during the 16-bit generation might has well have waited until the next generation. The S-RAM feature only lets you save, which I prefer before long passwords. It's a different thing than graphic chips, IMHO.

[Seldane]

What got me to buy the Mega Drive was actually Alex Kidd in the Enchanted Castle. I had a Master System 1 with Alex Kidd in Miracle World built-in earlier, and loved that game a lot so I wanted the sequel.

Then I got Phantasy Star III which was awesome, and one of my favorite RPGs to date. This is what truly got me into the Mega Drive.

As for the other systems of the 16-bit era... Well, the SNES is the only one I still play to this date. I play it every day actually (currently playing Mysterious Dungeon II, which RULES!). There's such a vast amount of awesome games on it that I'll probably play this for the rest of my life. I sometimes play on my Mega Drive as well, but then I usually play my old games just for the sake of nostalgia. It's always fun to play Light Crusader, for example. The raw power of this thing will never sieze to amaze me.

I have a PC Engine Duo as well, but I rarely play on it since it just feels a bit too primitive for my tastes (kind of like the Master System or NES that I never play either), and due to the massive lack of good games of course (there are about five games I like on it). Ys 4 is the best game on the system though, and I can never get enough of that awesome game.

[Mr Smith]

It's not that hardware doesn't matter, it's just that trying to prove one console's superiority over the other based on hardware strengths & weaknesses never goes anywhere. It's an argument started by rival promotional campaigns in an effort to steal market share.

Quite, but did you play the Speccy version of Golden Axe? :D

[ary incorparated]

ary, I don't hate much (except religion, war, communism, Swedish Slackfare etc.). I just prefer they use the hardware they have as good as they can. The 3D stuff that went on during the 16-bit generation might has well have waited until the next generation. The S-RAM feature only lets you save, which I prefer before long passwords. It's a different thing than graphic chips, IMHO.

okay,chip in is chip in i dont prefer a whole new generation pushed out a console that cant to.megadrive can do allot on his own batman and robin for instance or many others,im not truly aggainst it.i rather see developers think about pushing the system then just making things possible chip in wise,smart programming can do allot and can make a genesis equally to a snes graphic wise and supirior sound wise.

[awack]

(I have a PC Engine Duo as well, but I rarely play on it since it just feels a bit too primitive for my tastes (kind of like the Master System or NES that I never play either), and due to the massive lack of good games of course (there are about five games I like on it). Ys 4 is the best game on the system though, and I can never get enough of that awesome game)

Im the opposite after playing the the duo games like rondo of blood, saphire, lords of thunder, gates of thunder, spriggan, beyond shadowgate, legend of xanadu 2, or games that were on both systems like world heroes 2 fatal fury 2 and spacial, ys IV, raiden, ys III, art of fighting, i have a hard time getting into snes games. I find most snes games mundane.

[ary incorparated]

awack is sapphire as good as they say,i nevere can get any info about it,not about that game and not about its sound and graphics except screenshots.

[awack]

(saphire)....Well game play wise its only slightly above average but you do have four ships to choose from and a two player mode.
For the grafx, the art work and use of color are about as good as it gets for a shooter on a home console with 16 bit grafx but when you think saphire you think special effects, what it does is try to throw everything but the kitchen sink at you, they include big 3D looking bosses spinning around the screen,scalling sprites, morphing,great animation like the dragon, oh and the coolest looking astroids ive seen in a game.
The sound fx are a mix bag, the sound of your weapons are awful but the sound some of the bosses make or the sound of rockets blasting in the last level are really good.

[ary incorparated]

Thanx for the info i just bought it for 60 euro without arcade card.Hopefully all thing are correct etc because its extremely cheap for that game, i,ve noticed the ship,s shooting sound higly irritating. What ive seen i think its a great game

[Black_Tiger]

Thanx for the info i just bought it for 60 euro without arcade card.Hopefully all thing are correct etc because its extremely cheap for that game, i,ve noticed the ship,s shooting sound higly irritating. What ive seen i think its a great game

I hope you realize that its a bootleg you just bought. If you're only interested in playing the game and don't have a problem with bootlegs, it seems to work fine.

[Joe Redifer]

I agree that many of the sound effects in Sapphire can be irritating.

[ary incorparated]

I hope you realize that its a bootleg you just bought. If you're only interested in playing the game and don't have a problem with bootlegs, it seems to work fine.

Yes im only intrested in that,im not going to pay f..cking 400 balls for it.And since there is no other way to test it or something id rather do this.

[16-bit]

Me? Back in the day ( I was only 5 or6) I owned an SNES. But I when ever I went to the Dentists office they had a Genesis and I would always play Dynamite Headdy and Sonic and Knuckles on it. I loved it. And then a couple of years past, I was really fed up with the way games were.

Then I remembered that back in the day when games were fun, that I probably missed out on something. And it turns out that I had missed out on something big. As soon as I saw the Genesis at my local Gameshop, I wanted it. So I saved up 25$ and bought it, along with a copy of Sonic 2 and DJboy.

I've had my Genesis for about 2 years, and I have more games on it than my Super Nintendo that I have had for 10 years. I also tend to play it more.

[ary incorparated]

Remember back in the days,remeber when u where there,it doesnt matter anyway,because you wouldnt understand..... etc etc.

[Blaze]

Hello fellow Gen owners and loyal fans. I myself used to be on the Nintendo camp as a kid. But everytime I would go at my best friend's house and play the likes of Sonic or Streets of Rage....I couldn't help but feel hopless due the fact that i was stuck with a plumber and mushrooms. The world Sega created with it's 16bit Revolution (32x & CD included) was something completly new unlike Nintendo or any other company ever achieved. Sonic had attitude, he had charm and all in all more flavor than Mario. Tails was more than just an ordinary sidekick, he could run along his partner and help him in times of need. He could fly him into high spaces above....Luigi couldn't.

Everything Nintendo avoided, Sega embraced. They were like the rebrith of "cool" and "fresh" back in the early to mid 90s. What hurts me the most is the fact that the Genesis was highly under rated. The only thing people can come up with to back it up is Sonic & Streets of Rage (shows the ignorrance in most nintendo fans back in the day). OR say the typical Shining Force, Golden Axe, Aleterd Beast & Phantasy Star. They forget about the forgotten treasures, Vectorman 1-2 wich had all the potential to crush the DKC series, Dynamite Heady wich was more innovative than any other Snes platformer at the time, Gunstar Heroes wich was towers above it's competitors, Contra Hard Corps (making Contra 3 look silly), Pulseman, Landstalker, Comix Zone, Road Rash, Ecco, Mortal Kombat (uncut and raw) Crusader Centy (Zelda Killa), Light Crusader, Lightining Force, Aladdin (snes versions dosen't compare), Shinobi III, Earthworm Jim 1-2(destroys the snes versions), World Of Illusions, Monster World IV, Beyond Oasis, Biohazard Battle, Ristar (kirby is finished) Alien Soldier (Megaman X? Finished), Virtua Fighter 2 (diffrent than Street Fighter 2), Afterburner 2 (more blazing than Starfox) Ranger X (blows Cybernator out the water), Castlevania Bloodlines (man dont get me started) and much MUCH more A+ titles that hardcore Nin fans were too ignorrant to even notice.

They aslo tend to forget that in order to experience the full Sega 16 flavor, you had to purchase the 32x & Sega Cd wich in the end when you combine with the gens must have game library....Sega easily out ballances the SNES. The Lunar games were years ahead of any RPG on rival consoles (yes even Final fantasy & Chrono Trigger, wake up), Snatcher was quite possibly the ultimate 16bit game of all time, Popfull Mail, Sonic CD (Yoshi? Please..), Chaotix, Star Wars Arcade, Space Harrier 32x, Virtua Racing Deluxe, Virtua Fighter, Vay (another amazing RPG), Dark Wizard, Lords OF Thunder, Final Fight CD (finaly the real arcade version), Tempo, Kolibri...all these under doggz had more funk than what Nintendo had 2 offer.


I just turned 18 recently and decided to trade all my Snes games in favor of another Genesis collector's library (he had the best games for it, a Gens, 32x and Sega Cd all for 70 bucks ). I truly believe SEGA was the more mature experience, they had more funk and more refreshing titles out of the black box. They were also the first bad boyz to do something wich was diffrent than Nintendo or Atari. Not only did they bring the arcade experience at home...they also created they're own vibe for home entertainment. They opened the doors for many others to come even today and its just sad that ppl never tapped in deep into its library and add ons. The Snes will always have that special place in my heart, yet...Genz always seduced me wit its charm. I just wasnt brave enuff to admit it up until now. So yeah, Sega wins. At times I even think its a slaughter...so wicked that Sega was wetting Ninty like its water. Sum dudes were just to bias to realize thats all. I was one of them...and im glad I had the ballz to man up a bit and admit it. Sega owned...str8 up and down, NEc and Big N couldnt shoot the gift. They didn''t see it coming and eventualy, Sega's Genesis, CD & 32X caught em slippin'. It was the sytem to beat regardless of how powerfull its competition was.

[ary incorparated]

Great scroll trough.Afterburner 2 was totally shit on the genesis but as for the 32x version hmm not bad but could have had some more extras features.

[Blaze]

Hm, to each his own opinion dude. I thought ABII was the shiznit even on genz. Blazing Speed

[Joe Redifer]

I am not reading that wall of text. Please utilize paragraphs, thanks.

[Melf]

Hello fellow Gen owners and loyal fans. I myself used to be on the Nintendo camp as a kid. But everytime I would go at my best friend's house and play the likes of Sonic or Streets of Rage....I couldn't help but feel hopless due the fact that i was stuck with a plumber and mushrooms. The world Sega created with it's 16bit Revolution (32x & CD included) was something completly new unlike Nintendo or any other company ever achieved. Sonic had attitude, he had charm and all in all more flavor than Mario. Tails was more than just an ordinary sidekick, he could run along his partner and help him in times of need. He could fly him into high spaces above....Luigi couldn't. Everything Nintendo avoided, Sega embraced. They were like the rebrith of "cool" and "fresh" back in the early to mid 90s.

What hurts me the most is the fact that the Genesis was highly under rated. The only thing people can come up with to back it up is Sonic & Streets of Rage (shows the ignorrance in most nintendo fans back in the day). OR say the typical Shining Force, Golden Axe, Aleterd Beast & Phantasy Star. They forget about the forgotten treasures, Vectorman 1-2 wich had all the potential to crush the DKC series, Dynamite Heady wich was more innovative than any other Snes platformer at the time, Gunstar Heroes wich was towers above it's competitors, Contra Hard Corps (making Contra 3 look silly), Pulseman, Landstalker, Comix Zone, Road Rash, Ecco, Mortal Kombat (uncut and raw) Crusader Centy (Zelda Killa), Light Crusader, Lightining Force, Aladdin (snes versions dosen't compare), Shinobi III, Earthworm Jim 1-2(destroys the snes versions), World Of Illusions, Monster World IV, Beyond Oasis, Biohazard Battle, Ristar (kirby is finished) Alien Soldier (Megaman X? Finished), Virtua Fighter 2 (diffrent than Street Fighter 2), Afterburner 2 (more blazing than Starfox) Ranger X (blows Cybernator out the water), Castlevania Bloodlines (man dont get me started) and much MUCH more A+ titles that hardcore Nin fans were too ignorrant to even notice.

They aslo tend to forget that in order to experience the full Sega 16 flavor, you had to purchase the 32x & Sega Cd wich in the end when you combine with the gens must have game library....Sega easily out ballances the SNES. The Lunar games were years ahead of any RPG on rival consoles (yes even Final fantasy & Chrono Trigger, wake up), Snatcher was quite possibly the ultimate 16bit game of all time, Popfull Mail, Sonic CD (Yoshi? Please..), Chaotix, Star Wars Arcade, Space Harrier 32x, Virtua Racing Deluxe, Virtua Fighter, Vay (another amazing RPG), Dark Wizard, Lords OF Thunder, Final Fight CD (finaly the real arcade version), Tempo, Kolibri...all these under doggz had more funk than what Nintendo had 2 offer.

I just turned 18 recently and decided to trade all my Snes games in favor of another Genesis collector's library (he had the best games for it, a Gens, 32x and Sega Cd all for 70 bucks ). I truly believe SEGA was the more mature experience, they had more funk and more refreshing titles out of the black box. They were also the first bad boyz to do something wich was diffrent than Nintendo or Atari. Not only did they bring the arcade experience at home...they also created they're own vibe for home entertainment. They opened the doors for many others to come even today and its just sad that ppl never tapped in deep into its library and add ons. The Snes will always have that special place in my heart, yet...Genz always seduced me wit its charm. I just wasnt brave enuff to admit it up until now.

So yeah, Sega wins. At times I even think its a slaughter...so wicked that Sega was wetting Ninty like its water. Sum dudes were just to bias to realize thats all. I was one of them...and im glad I had the ballz to man up a bit and admit it. Sega owned...str8 up and down, NEc and Big N couldnt shoot the gift. They didn''t see it coming and eventualy, Sega's Genesis, CD & 32X caught em slippin'. It was the sytem to beat regardless of how powerfull its competition was.

:D

[Joe Redifer]

Ahhh, much better!

[Blaze]

I am not reading that wall of text. Please utilize paragraphs, thanks.


then dont, it dosent matter

[ary incorparated]

Hm, to each his own opinion dude. I thought ABII was the shiznit even on genz. Blazing Speed

Offcourse,i just dont see the similarity between star fox and AB2 except they both plane games.

[GeckoYamori]

They both do the barrel roll.

[Joe Redifer]

Except that Star Fox just spins the ship around. The Genesis and 32X spin the whole screen around thanks to the unlimited power of the Sega Genesis.

[Blaze]

Eventualy I'l want to purchase an snes once again. Just this time, I wont bother collecting all those japanese RPG's that never made it in Europe and America. No point playing a game when u cant even make it half way through. All in all, the 16Bit Wars were the golden age of gaming. Im glad I grew up with Genz and Snes. I just can't help but feel Sega did want nintendont lol

[ary incorparated]

Except that Star Fox just spins the ship around. The Genesis and 32X spin the whole screen around thanks to the unlimited power of the Sega Genesis.

Thats the 32x version which i dont have much complaints about that one is very wel done the only thing missing is the solo in final take of.The genesis version didnt do anything but bring the similair to the smell of shit.

[Joe Redifer]

The Genesis was created by God's daughter Liz, and the Genesis version of After Burner 2 spins the entire screen around using it's god-powers. This cannot be denied.

[Seldane]

By making this post, I am officially not denying your statement.

[ary incorparated]

the genesis and the tg16 version did that so genesis isnt god anymore in that way.

[16-bit]

Remember back in the days,remeber when u where there,it doesnt matter anyway,because you wouldnt understand..... etc etc.

Woah, I sounded like a 50 year old man back in that last post, ha!

[ary incorparated]

Woah, I sounded like a 50 year old man back in that last post, ha!

Hehe its actually from a megadeth song you reminded me of that.

[nat]

The Genesis was created by God's daughter Liz, and the Genesis version of After Burner 2 spins the entire screen around using it's god-powers. This cannot be denied.

The TurboGrafx-16 was created by Lucifer himself and spins the screen better than the Genesis version of After Burner II.

Clearly, Lucifer defeats Liz and in turn, God.

[Joe Redifer]

You win. :(

[ary incorparated]

True and that since the tg16 isnt true 16bit while genesis is lol.

[Zebbe]

Since the Turdographx-16 has a 16-bit graphics processor and the CPU is almost as fast as the CPU of the Genesis, what disadvantage does it have because of the 8-bit CPU against the 16-bit CPU of the Genesis? I mean for example what can be done with 16-bit power that can't be done with 8-bit power?

[ary incorparated]

That,s saying that actually the amount of bits doesnt really matter always,that the ram doesnt make the man. I always tougt the tg 16 chip was mounted to 3,56 and could do somewhere up to 7 or 8,but genesis can go up to 12+ mhz and handles around 8 mhz just fine+has ways better sound the the tg 16.

And there is not one game on tg16 card system that matches the quality of the upper genesis titles(graphic and sound wise)some tg16 games look sometimes even worser then mastersystem,but it has some splendid titles also strip fighter and splatter house graphics super.

[Zebbe]

But generally speaking, what advantage does 16-bit give over 8-bit when two systems are pretty much as powerful in other categories?

[Joe Redifer]

The TurboGrafx-16's ONLY disadvantages would be its lack of a second background layer and lack of bass in its sound chip.

[j_factor]

But generally speaking, what advantage does 16-bit give over 8-bit when two systems are pretty much as powerful in other categories?

Technically, (as we have mentioned before) the Genesis's main processor is actually 32-bit. It has a 16-bit external bus, but the ALU is 32 bits. In terms of internal calculations, the 32-bit processor can process information in chunks that are four times larger than the 8-bit. So if you were using the two as math calculators, the 32-bit could handle larger numbers per calculation -- say you had a huge integer at 30 bits in length, the 8-bit processor would have to separate it into four chunks while the 32-bit processor could handle it by itself.

What this means is that if you have an 8-bit processor and a 32-bit processor with comparable specs, the 32-bit is significantly more powerful in terms of being able to compute more information faster. As to how this difference is quantified, or the finer points of how this applies to videogames, I'm not really sure.

If I remember correctly, the Turbografx has two 8-bit CPUs and a 16-bit GPU, so its power should be relatively close to the Genny's.

[Joe Redifer]

One 8-bit CPU and 2 16-bit GPUs I believe.

[Zebbe]

Technically, (as we have mentioned before) the Genesis's main processor is actually 32-bit. It has a 16-bit external bus, but the ALU is 32 bits. In terms of internal calculations, the 32-bit processor can process information in chunks that are four times larger than the 8-bit. So if you were using the two as math calculators, the 32-bit could handle larger numbers per calculation -- say you had a huge integer at 30 bits in length, the 8-bit processor would have to separate it into four chunks while the 32-bit processor could handle it by itself.

What this means is that if you have an 8-bit processor and a 32-bit processor with comparable specs, the 32-bit is significantly more powerful in terms of being able to compute more information faster. As to how this difference is quantified, or the finer points of how this applies to videogames, I'm not really sure.

If I remember correctly, the Turbografx has two 8-bit CPUs and a 16-bit GPU, so its power should be relatively close to the Genny's.

Ah OK, thanks for the information! Many games that were released for both systems are often considered better on the Turbo, but I guess it's because of the superior GPU and that they didn't use the 32-bit power of Blast Processing for the Genesis version. I guess games like Sonic 2 can't be done on the Turbo even though the CPU is almost as fast as the 68K for the Genny, so the 32-bit ALU must play a big role in the programming for the Genny.

Joe Redifer: The sound channels are 6 for the Turbo and 10 for the Genny. And the Genny has tr00 FM!!!!!!

[ary incorparated]

The TurboGrafx-16's ONLY disadvantages would be its lack of a second background layer and lack of bass in its sound chip.

Nah and lacks synth instruments,but yeah its fairly nice at times it sound,s like 8 bit but very nice for instance soldier blade simple but very clean and good sound,its not worse since i some times prefer 8 bit sound over 16 bit in some matters.

[ary incorparated]

.Sonic 2 couldn’t be done idd it has many separate layers, although smart programming would accomplish allot on a tg 16.If the genesis had to surpass the tg 16 many way’s only if it has to then really smart programming would prove him above the tg16.I have to say that its actually not really fair to compare them to each other because every console has its own style and is recognised for ups and downs, I cant tell that a xbox has better graphics then a ps2 ,different i can say.

[Joe Redifer]

Zebbe... you of course know that I know that! Unfortunately quite a few Genesis games (usually those developed by US or EU teams) only use the 6 FM channels and that's it. The 6th FM channel can be used as a PCM. Games that have great music also use the PSG channels like in Knuckles' Chaotix which uses FM, PWM and PSG.

ary, you wanted a screen from the Turbo with 480 colors on it. Here's one with all 512:

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/512pce.png

[j_factor]

Ah OK, thanks for the information! Many games that were released for both systems are often considered better on the Turbo, but I guess it's because of the superior GPU and that they didn't use the 32-bit power of Blast Processing for the Genesis version.

It's also because they were usually on Turbografx first, so the Genny version experienced port-itis.

[Zebbe]

Joe Redifer: Yeah, EU and US games usually have sucky music/sound, especially those by EA. Knuckles' Chaotix also has sucky music, which drives me insane in co-operation with the lunatic bonus levels. Btw, I hope you also know it can ONLY be played if you have a 32X on your Sega Genesis/Mega Drive video game system? Even though the music and pretty much most of the game seem to run on the 16-bit hardware.

Also, a 512 colour test demo can be done on the Genny too. It's just the lazy programmers who don't fully utilize the power of Blast Processing to blame.

[ary incorparated]

Zebbe... you of course know that I know that! Unfortunately quite a few Genesis games (usually those developed by US or EU teams) only use the 6 FM channels and that's it. The 6th FM channel can be used as a PCM. Games that have great music also use the PSG channels like in Knuckles' Chaotix which uses FM, PWM and PSG.

ary, you wanted a screen from the Turbo with 480 colors on it. Here's one with all 512:

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/512pce.png

yeah i can make one 2 that way,its just directly from the hardware,and its running with emulation,this is pretty dull since is have the same thing for the genesis on demo,only genesis can do 512+shadow and highlight control.

[Blaze]

the way I see it, Genz was made for a Raw audience while Snes had its funky side of gamers. If u realy wanted to experience the art of gaming at its peak, u had to get both sides of the story. Sega had touch in making arcade quality games that culd pull out ur animal senses while Nintendo was good at bringing out the dream child in u. I think it was us gamers who won this war...not the consoles. Wich is why i consider the 16bit age to be the golden years.



TG 16 had its own thang goin on but it wasnt even a 16bit. Still it showed us what the future had in store (Super Nes & Sega Genesis)

[Joe Redifer]

TG 16 had its own thang goin on but it wasnt even a 16bit

What does not being 16-bit have to do with anything? It had two 16-bit GPUs.

[Blaze]

What does not being 16-bit have to do with anything? It had two 16-bit GPUs.


nothing, jus statin that it wasnt in the same lead as Nintendo & Sega. But it pretty much offerd us the first taste of what 16bit culd offer

[Joe Redifer]

The Turbo was in the same generation. Like I said above, the only things it didn't have that the Genesis did where a second BG layer and sound that was capable of bass. Otherwise it can put more colors on the screen than the Genesis (and it did) and it runs at almost the same speed. Many Turbo games are damn fast, much faster than SNES games.

[Black_Tiger]

The Lunar games were years ahead of any RPG on rival consoles (yes even Final fantasy & Chrono Trigger, wake up), Snatcher was quite possibly the ultimate 16bit game of all time...



I guess you're not familar with the other 'rival console' that is in the thread's topic. ;)

Unless it gets excluded for not being a rival commercially.

Even though the ultimate 16-bit game of all time is a port from the unnamed console. ;)






That,s saying that actually the amount of bits doesnt really matter always,that the ram doesnt make the man. I always tougt the tg 16 chip was mounted to 3,56 and could do somewhere up to 7 or 8,but genesis can go up to 12+ mhz and handles around 8 mhz just fine+has ways better sound the the tg 16.

And there is not one game on tg16 card system that matches the quality of the upper genesis titles(graphic and sound wise)some tg16 games look sometimes even worser then mastersystem,but it has some splendid titles also strip fighter and splatter house graphics super.

Some Genesis games also look worser than SMS games.

You could also upgrade the TG-16 with additional hardware that increases the cpu speed if you wanted to. Afterall, the SNES can go up to 21 mhz. ;)

But the Turbo/PCE never needed extra cpu speed to handle its Arcade Card games. And if ram makes the man, then the Arcade Card Turbo/PCE is 3 times burlier, deeper voiced and hairier than the pimply girly man Sega-CD.

You can argue that there are more Genesis games that reach your personal pinnacle level of graphics(which I'm assuming is uber Genesis'ishy).

But few people who are familiar with the PC Engine's library would say that "there is not one game on tg16 card system that matches the quality of the upper genesis titles(graphic and sound wise)." :p






It's also because they were usually on Turbografx first, so the Genny version experienced port-itis.

Really? Do you know which? Because I can't think of any games that were ported to the Turbo/PCE first.






Joe Redifer: Yeah, EU and US games usually have sucky music/sound, especially those by EA. Knuckles' Chaotix also has sucky music, which drives me insane in co-operation with the lunatic bonus levels. Btw, I hope you also know it can ONLY be played if you have a 32X on your Sega Genesis/Mega Drive video game system? Even though the music and pretty much most of the game seem to run on the 16-bit hardware.

Also, a 512 colour test demo can be done on the Genny too. It's just the lazy programmers who don't fully utilize the power of Blast Processing to blame.


Here's a screenshot of the Game Gear displaying 288 colors at once. More than any commercial Genesis or TurboGrafx-16 game-

http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/gg288.png

So the GG officially pwns both the Gen/TG(and therefore the Nomad too), all without Blast Processing. :cool:






nothing, jus statin that it wasnt in the same lead as Nintendo & Sega. But it pretty much offerd us the first taste of what 16bit culd offer

So then you really haven't played many Turbo/PCE games? Then why are you commenting on it in regards of leagues?

[Zebbe]

Here's a screenshot of the Game Gear displaying 288 colors at once. More than any commercial Genesis or TurboGrafx-16 game-

http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/gg288.png

So the GG officially pwns both the Gen/TG(and therefore the Nomad too), all without Blast Processing. :cool:

You didn't see the pic of the Turbo displaying 512 colours by Joe Redifer?

[ary incorparated]

Thats the same directly token from the hardware+its a demo these thing are damn fake and not showing any capability of the hardware itself plese take something of this in game.BTW if colours can be taking directly from the pallet just for photos or movies like a GBC did more then 100 colours in tomb raider etc with pictures why shouldnt a GG do that,it has slower processing but it does have a pallet of a whopping 4000+ colours.

[Black_Tiger]

Thats the same directly token from the hardware+its a demo these thing are damn fake and not showing any capability of the hardware itself plese take something of this in game.BTW if colours can be taking directly from the pallet just for photos or movies like a GBC did more then 100 colours in tomb raider etc with pictures why shouldnt a GG do that,it has slower processing but it does have a pallet of a whopping 4000+ colours.

Most of Chris Covell's spec defying demos only work with real hardware.



You didn't see the pic of the Turbo displaying 512 colours by Joe Redifer?

Thats why I said more color than any 'commercial' game. The TG-16 512 color demo still pwns everything other than the 1000+ color Genesis demo. ;)

But seriously, at least the Game Gear color demo features real graphics/artwork.

[evildragon]

there exists a 960 color demo for the Genesis...

[108 Stars]

Anyway, those demos are worthless for these tricks to show more colours are probably impossible to achieve in a real game.

[evildragon]

Anyway, those demos are worthless for these tricks to show more colours are probably impossible to achieve in a real game.
for in-game, yea, worthless.. just imagine how many cycles your wasting.. for demonstration purposes, just to prove it can be done, that's what they are there for, and that's cool enough.. somebody should do this to the 32X and see how many colors can be pushed..

i don't think they can be exceeded.. (but then again, we all say that for every console, and look at the Atari 2600, it was pushed to 128 colors for Centipedes atari logo)

[Zebbe]

32X can officially use all 32 768 colours on screen IIRC.

[ary incorparated]

Yeah i know most of chris its stuff is possible on the hardware but he can also also make the 1000+ demo run on a real genesis,But whats the use of demos,i want real games that push the hardware,ive seen a part in the mad hatter level in b&R when you reach the mid boss you get some whopping colours in screen dont know if it surpasses 64.

[evildragon]

nah, that'd be wasting major CPU cycles to do all those raster tricks, to be used for a game at all..

[ary incorparated]

for in-game, yea, worthless.. just imagine how many cycles your wasting.. for demonstration purposes, just to prove it can be done, that's what they are there for, and that's cool enough.. somebody should do this to the 32X and see how many colors can be pushed..

i don't think they can be exceeded.. (but then again, we all say that for every console, and look at the Atari 2600, it was pushed to 128 colors for Centipedes atari logo)

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/9384/centipede2600screenshothq6.gif (http://imageshack.us)

you mean this thing.

I was imressed by more atari 2600 games since it showed some crap graphics and some with those colour heuing effects like in this atari logos like in boxing for the atari 2600 and some more which makes the colour count at least 20 on par with the nes only in a other way.

[ary incorparated]

nah, that'd be wasting major CPU cycles to do all those raster tricks, to be used for a game at all..

That could be that the higher colour count would tax the cpu very much and since a game like that does its job great in animation etc,it would be hard to pump it full with colours,sure genesis can do more then 100 colours in screen only it will tax its CPU rough,so extra cpu speed or permanent z80 help would make it maybe possible or interlaces or what ever,you know the ways,or a extra card for extra power in same vein as pc engines arcade card extra memory to make it happen.

[evildragon]

http://img57.imageshack.us/img57/9384/centipede2600screenshothq6.gif (http://imageshack.us)

you mean this thing.

I was imressed by more atari 2600 games since it showed some crap graphics and some with those colour heuing effects like in this atari logos like in boxing for the atari 2600 and some more which makes the colour count at least 20 on par with the nes only in a other way.
i mean exactly that! :P that's making me wanna hook up my Atari..

here's the thing, the atari doesn't even deal with colors.. programming it isn't near RGB.. It's just modifying the chroma output, that's all (hence theres a tint POT in the console)..

[Joe Redifer]

Space Harrier on the 32X puts well over 4,096 colors onscreen at once in one scene.

[j_factor]

Really? Do you know which? Because I can't think of any games that were ported to the Turbo/PCE first.

Cadash, Ys III, Devil's Crush, Valis 1 and 3, Lords of Thunder, Exile, etc.

[ary incorparated]

Space Harrier on the 32X puts well over 4,096 colors onscreen at once in one scene.

Sure?,showing is believing,you know how to proof it.

[ary incorparated]

i mean exactly that! :P that's making me wanna hook up my Atari..

here's the thing, the atari doesn't even deal with colors.. programming it isn't near RGB.. It's just modifying the chroma output, that's all (hence theres a tint POT in the console)..

Yeah and the colours also change pretty impressive but overlooked.

[Joe Redifer]

Here you go:

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/space-harrier.png

4,221 colors.

[Black_Tiger]

Cadash, Ys III, Devil's Crush, Valis 1 and 3, Lords of Thunder, Exile, etc.

Lords Of Thunder and Devil's Crush are Turbo originals. But Lords Sega-CD still turned out great.

I'm not sure if Ys III, Exile and Valis III made it to PCE first, but a lot of people would argue that Valis III and Ys III are better on Genesis.

Ys III Genesis is not a port of the Turbo/PCE version, its closest relative is the X68000 version. If anything, its the Turbo version that suffers port-itus from being based on the PC-88 version.

I'm pretty sure that the computer, PCE and Genesis Valis's are all unique, other than part III. But even those who prefer the Turbo version have to admit how well the Genesis version turned out, since it was fine tuned for the Genesis and not a sloppy port.




Here you go:

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/space-harrier.png

4,221 colors.

Beautiful. :notworthy:

[evildragon]

Here you go:

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/space-harrier.png

4,221 colors.
nice, i need to know how they pushed the colors like that...

but, don't count the Genesis graphics (text), black those out to remove them from testing..

OR, tell me how to get there (save state), and i'll run it through an emulator disabling the genesis VDP, to show ONLY 32X graphics..

[Black_Tiger]

nice, i need to know how they pushed the colors like that...

but, don't count the Genesis graphics (text), black those out to remove them from testing..

OR, tell me how to get there (save state), and i'll run it through an emulator disabling the genesis VDP, to show ONLY 32X graphics..

So that there will only be 4,201 colors? ;)




EDIT: I just figured out how to access the Options menu without save states and snapped a screenshot without the Genesis text-

http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/sh.bmp


Not counting the little bar at the bottom left corner, its supposed to have 4245 colors. :cool:

I guess that the low color font only concealed even more colors. :p

[Joe Redifer]

Ha ha that's hilarious. Having the Genesis graphics onscreen actually REDUCES colors!

PS - How did you get to the options screen without a save state? Are you a magician?

[evildragon]

Ha ha that's hilarious. Having the Genesis graphics onscreen actually REDUCES colors!

PS - How did you get to the options screen without a save state? Are you a magician?
i've never played the game, i never knew there was an options screen..

i think it reduces colors since it hides part of the image with the genesis text on-screen.. it probably is overlapping parts of the image that uses colors not used in the other parts.. ehh, i wish i could have said that better...

[Zebbe]

nice, i need to know how they pushed the colors like that...

It shouldn't be hard since the 32X can have 32 768 colours on screen at the same time.

[108 Stars]

It shouldn't be hard since the 32X can have 32 768 colours on screen at the same time.

Exactly. It could show 32 768 colours in stills.

[evildragon]

my bad, i thought they were saying it pushed 40 thousand colors.. mis-read..

[ary incorparated]

Here you go:

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/space-harrier.png

4,221 colors.

Great man that,s what i meant,very nice.

Some of those colours did well faking translumency,awesome how the image can pack out this great imagen sor 4 or a shinobi game on a 32X :b.

[evildragon]

actually, that's not even the best the 32X can do.. it can do WAY better than that...

[Elusive]

i've never played the game, i never knew there was an options screen..

i think it reduces colors since it hides part of the image with the genesis text on-screen.. it probably is overlapping parts of the image that uses colors not used in the other parts.. ehh, i wish i could have said that better...

My theory (and what I think you're saying) is that the 32X image - Harrier blasting the dragon - is drawn at the same time as the Mega Drive image - the text. Somewhere along the line, the console tries to draw two colours at once where text overlaps the image, but gets confused, so it goes with a substitute colour that's already been used onscreen. Or possibly uses a mix of both colours to make another colour that just happens to be used elsewhere on screen.

edit: Why are there no 'stress test' programs that use the full muscle of the 32X or Mega Drive? It'd be interesting to see how far the hardware can be pushed. I don't mean HOW DO I PLAY GUNSTAR HEROES, I mean things like drawing x amount of sprites onscreen, displaying y amount of colours, and so on. Hell, some kind of doohickey that utilises the parallel processing power of the 32X-Mega-CD-Mega Drive combo would be jawdropping.

[evildragon]

i think you're saying something close to mine.. what im thinking, is that the text is overlapping a color that isn't used elsewhere on the screen (like the only one in the palette of it's kind), thus lowing the number of colors (or making it appear that way)...

[ary incorparated]

actually, that's not even the best the 32X can do.. it can do WAY better than that...

I do believe that only not to be shown in games for the system,i am far from impressed by virtua racing and virtua fighter altought it are nice titles but graphically pretty basic.The saturn could have had the arcade perfect version of virtua fighter maybe 32x could to?,that would have been nice.

[108 Stars]

Yes, nobody has ever seen the system´s true potential: It didn´t live long enough for programmers to push it to it´s limits. I think it could have done quite some impressive stuff in the future.

[evildragon]

there was a demo video i seen that did some crazy things on the 32X, including shading, shadows, etc..

http://youtube.com/watch?v=pOWZbydnlZE

i think there was a color demo for the 32X too (more of a bitmap demo).. if i run across it, i'll post it here..

[Joe Redifer]

Elusive, the colors are reduced because the text (created by the Genesis) contains fewer colors than the graphics behind it. Hold one of your hands out at a distance and look at it. Now put something between your face and your hand. You can't see your hand any more!!!! That is what is happening with the text on top of the Space Harrier backdrop. If you put a giant screen of grey in front of it, it would only have 1 color. Take it away and you get over 4,200.

[Black_Tiger]

edit: Why are there no 'stress test' programs that use the full muscle of the 32X or Mega Drive? It'd be interesting to see how far the hardware can be pushed. I don't mean HOW DO I PLAY GUNSTAR HEROES, I mean things like drawing x amount of sprites onscreen, displaying y amount of colours, and so on. Hell, some kind of doohickey that utilises the parallel processing power of the 32X-Mega-CD-Mega Drive combo would be jawdropping.

Sonic 1 has a built in stress test. Just do the debug trick (Up + C, Down + C, Left + C, Right + C, A + Start?) and plop down as many sprites as you want till the game chugs as much as you want it to.

There's no way to really benchmark the full potential of any console. Anytime you see slowdown you're witnessing the system at its limits. It all depends on the programming.

It would be cool to see more crazy demos that try to do different kinds of showcase tests. Like a demo that moves a ton of sprites fast across a crazy background or something.

The PC Engine and SuperGrafx have been getting some nice misc demos. Anyone know of any site with an archive of Genesis tech demos?




Elusive, the colors are reduced because the text (created by the Genesis) contains fewer colors than the graphics behind it. Hold one of your hands out at a distance and look at it. Now put something between your face and your hand. You can't see your hand any more!!!! That is what is happening with the text on top of the Space Harrier backdrop. If you put a giant screen of grey in front of it, it would only have 1 color. Take it away and you get over 4,200.

Here's a visual:


79 colors
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/xb1.gif

70 colors
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/xb2.gif


The 6 color bonk sprite is covering up 15 unique colors in the background image.

...or at least he might as well be. If 1 or 2 of Bonk's colors are in the rest of the original image, then technically he may only be covering 14 or 13 colors.

Basically, Bonk hides more than he adds. He's a bastard like that. :rock:

[evildragon]

thank you two for describing what i was trying to say, BETTER.. ;) (i honestly couldn't find the best words to describe it)

[j_factor]

Sonic 1 has a built in stress test. Just do the debug trick (Up + C, Down + C, Left + C, Right + C, A + Start?) and plop down as many sprites as you want till the game chugs as much as you want it to.

That's really more of a test on Sonic 1's engine than the hardware itself. Aren't there more games with debug tricks?

[Elusive]

Elusive, the colors are reduced because the text (created by the Genesis) contains fewer colors than the graphics behind it. Hold one of your hands out at a distance and look at it. Now put something between your face and your hand. You can't see your hand any more!!!! That is what is happening with the text on top of the Space Harrier backdrop. If you put a giant screen of grey in front of it, it would only have 1 color. Take it away and you get over 4,200.

Oh, dear. You're right - the simplest explanation wins out, I guess :D

[ary incorparated]

Sonic 1 has a built in stress test. Just do the debug trick (Up + C, Down + C, Left + C, Right + C, A + Start?) and plop down as many sprites as you want till the game chugs as much as you want it to.

There's no way to really benchmark the full potential of any console. Anytime you see slowdown you're witnessing the system at its limits. It all depends on the programming.

It would be cool to see more crazy demos that try to do different kinds of showcase tests. Like a demo that moves a ton of sprites fast across a crazy background or something.

The PC Engine and SuperGrafx have been getting some nice misc demos. Anyone know of any site with an archive of Genesis tech demos?





Here's a visual:


79 colors
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/xb1.png

70 colors
http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/xb2.png


The 6 color bonk sprite is covering up 15 unique colors in the background image.

...or at least he might as well be. If 1 or 2 of Bonk's colors are in the rest of the original image, then technically he may only be covering 14 or 13 colors.

Basically, Bonk hides more than he adds. He's a bastard like that. :rock:



From which game are these screens?.

[Black_Tiger]

From which game are these screens?.

The Legend of Xanadu II for PC Engine CD.

http://www.superpcenginegrafx.com/img/x.gif

Apparently I saved those first two pics in the wrong format and they got ruined. :daze:

I replaced them with gifs (which alters the colors a bit, but its close enough). :p

[evildragon]

i could save GIFs with the Genesis palette if you needed me too.. though, PNG works best without modification ;)

[ary incorparated]

What a awesome graphics,legend of xanadu i think ive played it in the past but cant remember.

[Joe Redifer]

I first thought it was a SNES game due to the color gradients. That says a lot!

[ary incorparated]

It looks really awesome, i,ve could have mistaken it for that too.

[Demonic Weasel]

I can't believe I missed this topic. Heh. The SNES only wins if you take imports into account. The TG-16 only wins if you also have access to it's CD counterpart. The Genesis wins otherwise.

[ary incorparated]

thats stuff a genesis maybe even cant show im not shure.

[Yoshim]

Time to add my 2 zenny on this.

As much as I have a lot of positive nostalgia for the Genesis, it's my #2 system. We've had a strong love affair, then a falling out (I'd sell it), then I'd yearn for the arcade goodness and I'd buy it back...then sell it again. Back when I first bought the Genny back in summer of 1990 with a overtime laden last paycheck of the summer it blew me away and did so for a few years. After a while the arcade gaming seemed to feel like "fluff" to me. Many titles I rented just weren't that fun so I'd stop playing. Even to this day I have Genesis playing binges but then I'd just put it all away (as my wife won't LET me sell it as I'll "just buy it again.").

I got a Turbografx 16 around summer of 1991 (I worked a lot as a teen-since 12 actually and blew my money on games, much to the dismay of my parents). NEC was running a "buy a system and get a free game" deal around the same time they dropped the price to I want to say $99 or $149...I can't quite remember. Anyway I didn't have a lot of access to TG-16 games as the only place that had them for rent in my area was in a city 10 miles away at a grocery store and their selection wasn't that great. If I did find a game I wanted to buy, I had to go mail order. The games I did play were neat but they didn't beat out the Genesis at the time. I sold my TG-16 in the fall of 1992 to a buddy I met up with in a Dairy Queen parking lot. I'd repurchase the TG-16 later on when I got a car and could go to larger cities that were clearing them out but I'd always end up selling it. It's a solid number 3.

SNES was a surprise. I hated it when it came out-pretty graphics and great sound but it was soooo slow compared to the Genesis. A "next gen" system shouldn't have the same problems out of the gate the previous gen had, I though to myself. I wouldn't get one until around 1994 when I bought one used. Even though it couldn't handle the sheer arcade speed of games on the Genesis it made up for with games that had some serious depth like Zelda 3, Super Metroid, Super Empire Strikes Back, Tecmo Bowl III (and I'm not big on sports games), Star Fox and Axelay. It's a solid system that broke down my Genesis love and currently sees more play time than my Genesis does. Thus, it's Number one. At least for now. :D

[Arjak]

I hope I'm not sounding cliche or anything, but here's my story.

When I was about five, my parents bought me my first system. I got to choose between Sega and Nintendo (Turbo-who?). I chose Sega because I thought Sonic was just so much cooler. I loved Sonic. I bought the Sonic and Tails dolls and actually took them to the TV room to watch Adventures of Sonic the Hedgehog with me. There was a ditch near a Condo I used to live in and every day after school, I would run down it, pretending to be Sonic in the Sonic 2 special stage. Then one day, I tripped and fell and scrapped up my knee pretty bad.

I guess I just felt there was something special about Sega. It was what I chose, and I would do the same thing if I relived that moment!

[ary incorparated]

I rather say it differs from genesis in terms of colours and design etc,this is not typical genesis,if ive seen a rpg kindo thing on the genesis then story of thor would spring in mind which is more anime but awesome tough(if its a rpg i doubt it a bit). this is just fresh i i tought it was saturn or at least GBA.i have not seen it i action but looks awesome.the 32 bit kind of 2d textures like the trees at the side look awesome,dunno for the see and what it does but it looks like road to 32x or saturn.

imageshack.us]http://img78.imageshack.us/img78/203/jp20lost20worldnr7.gif[/URL]

[Zebbe]

This is the thread where we discussed whether the Mega Drive can do transparencies or not, right? Anyway, I am currently facing the Warlock of Heavens on Aegis Island in Monster World IV. There are some clouds in front of the wall we are standing on, they look transparent to me. There was some dithered fog earlier in the game, but this looks very different from that fog. The clouds are shining.

[ary incorparated]

Send an example please if you can,maybe not real but alternative colours that come close to the overlapping colours or something,the screenshot joe posted a while about the 32x space harier options screen made me doubting too,the transparantic kindo of yellow etc it looks very real,but probably isnt.i faced this discussion earlier on and i am pretty convinced it cant but imitates very well.

[Alianger]

I happened to have a couple of screenshots of this fight. :) Might help..

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e125/Alianger/MonsterWorldIVJf2T-Eng_DeJapDemifor.png

http://i38.photobucket.com/albums/e125/Alianger/MonsterWorldIVJf2T-Eng_DeJapDemi-1.png

[Zebbe]

Thanks, Alianger :D. I had already killed the boss and couldn't find anything on The Internets.

[evildragon]

It doesn't look like the cloud moves. Therefore, that whole brick wall is just an image of a wall with a cloud on it.. The Genesis did nothing to it...

[ary incorparated]

btw thats just lighten darken colours nothing special.

[evildragon]

it's not even shadow highlight mode.. it's merely an IMAGE..

[Zebbe]

I said the clouds are shining, back and forward between "transparent" and yellow. It looks very good, reminds me of SNES graphics.

[ary incorparated]

ahh they become yellow transparantic alike okey,could be or just a good fake.but the image as seen now is nothing special far way no transparacie just plain stuff.

[evildragon]

I said the clouds are shining, back and forward between "transparent" and yellow. It looks very good, reminds me of SNES graphics.
palette switching...

[ary incorparated]

could be,can you post an image of them in yellow?,of from the whole process etc.

[Alianger]

Well I remember there being some movement and flashy effects in that boss fight, kinda like the tower boss in Castlevania Bloodlines, but unfortunately I dont have a save state anywhere near the place.

[ary incorparated]

Cool,i have a look once for myself i think that title might impress me,its so colourfull.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9619/spaceharrierie2.png (http://imageshack.us)

This made me near swear that it has transparancies too,the yellow effect of the burst and the buidings fainting in blue and more this is really boggling my mind because with zoom they even look transparant,or it has to be a real good imitation.

[ary incorparated]

Well I remember there being some movement and flashy effects in that boss fight, kinda like the tower boss in Castlevania Bloodlines, but unfortunately I dont have a save state anywhere near the place.

you mean the clouds in castelvania?,those are far from transparant.

[Alianger]

I have no idea what these technical words mean, but it did have moving clouds and I think they flickered a bit.

Edit: Castlevania that is.

Edit 2: I might be able to reach that boss again today and record the fight. I'm at the pyramid dungeon which I hate.

[evildragon]

Cool,i have a look once for myself i think that title might impress me,its so colourfull.

http://img522.imageshack.us/img522/9619/spaceharrierie2.png (http://imageshack.us)

This made me near swear that it has transparancies too,the yellow effect of the burst and the buidings fainting in blue and more this is really boggling my mind because with zoom they even look transparant,or it has to be a real good imitation.
Um, that's a 32X game. And it's not even using the full 32X color palette. Not to mention, it's an IMAGE, and static non-moving IMAGE...

[JUNKER]

All three have their share of good games, so no comment.

[ary incorparated]

Um, that's a 32X game. And it's not even using the full 32X color palette. Not to mention, it's an IMAGE, and static non-moving IMAGE...

So does it have to use the full pallet?,i think a really good imitation light colours that really come close to the relevant colours i think its a real good imitation but no true transparancies are beeing used.

[ary incorparated]

Um, that's a 32X game. And it's not even using the full 32X color palette. Not to mention, it's an IMAGE, and static non-moving IMAGE...

Um so what if its static if there are transparant effects in this you prooved yourself wrong.

[evildragon]

Um so what if its static if there are transparant effects in this you prooved yourself wrong.
I prooved my self wrong? Actually, you just proved that you don't know anything about images, colors, etc.

By your logic, every TV show has transparency effects, even something like the Cosby Show, because of a soft glow around the characters...

This is not the case. It's COLORS. The 32X is NOT rendering translucent effects. We went over this before, we are NOT doing it again, we all proved you wrong then, and the fact you are starting AGAIN on this is just sad..

[ary incorparated]

No this actually makes you sadd because you cant resist to ignore,i was testing you,i know that there isnt any translucent in this picture.since there arent any translucent things in this you didnt proove yourself wrong read more carefully,read the if,i didnt sad it had transparancie.I was just messing around dont take this serious.how could you fall for it i know we quited this long time ago.

[evildragon]

No this actually makes you sadd because you cant resist to ignore,i was testing you,i know that there isnt any translucent in this picture.since there arent any translucent things in this you didnt proove yourself wrong read more carefully,read the if,i didnt sad it had transparancie.I was just messing around dont take this serious.how could you fall for it i know we quited this long time ago.
easy, because I don't like it when people spread mis-information.

not to mention, you went off topic and took me down to your level. hope the admins/mods talk to you about that...

[Joe Redifer]

How about we suggest that BOTH of you simply drop it?

[evildragon]

How about we suggest that BOTH of you simply drop it?
im down with that...

[ary incorparated]

**Text removed** I said drop it!

[ary incorparated]

dropped.

[Alianger]

I give you Warlock of the Heavens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAjUhwryp-E

[evildragon]

I give you Warlock of the Heavens.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UAjUhwryp-E
just different tiles, that's all.. just like the clouds in the background and their lightning.

[Zebbe]

Great video, Alianger! :D. Thanks for posting. This is not a Wonder Boy game though (the series was only called Wonder Boy outside of Japan, and as you know you play as a GIRL and the game wasn't released outside of Japan). If this was a Wonder Boy game, it would have been number six, btw.

ary_incorporated: What is your comment? Are there REAL "transparancies" in that video?

I'm gonna buy Pulseman, a game famous for its many graphical effects, and look for transparencies EVERYWHERE in that game. DO NOT LOCK THIS THREAD... YET!

[evildragon]

you won't find any! :P

the closest to translucency was some Racing game, who's menus used shadow mode to emulate translucency, but was VERY well done...

[Alianger]

Thanks! I've uploaded most of the game, so you can check for transparencies if you want.. ;)

I know it's not a Wonder _Boy_ game, but theoretically it would've been called that if it were released in the west.. and it Is the fifth game in the main series unless you count Monster Lair as part of it. Monster Lair wasn't called Monster World in Japan, so the developers probably didn't intend it to be a part of the series.

I think they should've dropped the Wonder Boy naming earlier because the main character isn't even named Wonder Boy in the Monster World series, it's a cheesy name, and it might've made them reconsider about releasing it in the west if the rest of the series was known as Monster World. Of course a girl as the main character was also a bad move, especially when it doesn't really affect the game's storyline in any way. They could've just changed the sprite to a boy or let the player choose between two characters.

[Zebbe]

I also think they should have dropped the Wonder Boy name, at least when a sub-series of Action-RPG type games came. I actually only enjoy those games, even though I haven't played Monster Lair much and only Adventure Island on the NES. The guy looks different from game to game, so there is no need to keep the name. Therefor, the names should be like this:

Wonder Boy in Monster Land -> Monster World
Wonder Boy III: The Dragon's Trap -> Monster World II, as in Japan
Wonder Boy in Monster World -> Monster World III
Monster World IV - same

Monster Lair could have been called Wonder Boy II, and Monster World should have been a series of its own.

I actually like Arsha's participation in MWIV. I think there are too few female protagonists and it is really cool to see one in an Arabic-styled game, if you know what I mean.

[Alianger]

Yeah exactly, I mean it was understandable in the first Monster World that they wanted to boost sales and it was still a linear game.. but the sequel really changed the series (for the better) so that's where they should've cut the ties I think. The main character is different in every game but they're relatives IIRC.

I agree 100% about that last bit, but from a marketing perspective (especially at the time) it was probably suicide for the series. If I had played Monster World IV back then, right after the prequels, I would've been disappointed with not being able to play as The Boy.. I know it sounds silly :P Playing it now I'm just slightly put off by it being too linear and missing stuff like magic and equipable/unequipable items.

[Zebbe]

I can see your point in what you're missing, but agree that the feel of the prequels is still there. Peperogu is a nice new idea, too bad he wasn't used more. My only complaint is that it is way too short (and the story is worse than worst, but I don't care at all). Only five dungeons and a walk to the end-boss. I guess the pretty graphics takes up that, so they should have increased the MEGA POWER to 24 or so, which was common for 16-bit games at that time.

[Alianger]

Yeah, it would've been cool to ride on your fully grown Peperogu's shoulders as he smashed the enemies and stone walls aside on the way to the final boss.. :D

I also thought it was a bit short (the dungeons were perfect, but the levels before them were almost ridiculous like in Alien Soldier), and the story, while not that bad in itself, wasn't told very well in the game.
For example, what's up with Asha talking to the bosses in town before encountering them in the dungeons? The game does make a joke out of that but it's still weird.

I want a sequel! Just borrowing all the good elements from the series would make a near-perfect retro style Action RPG.

[ary incorparated]

Great video, Alianger! :D. Thanks for posting. This is not a Wonder Boy game though (the series was only called Wonder Boy outside of Japan, and as you know you play as a GIRL and the game wasn't released outside of Japan). If this was a Wonder Boy game, it would have been number six, btw.

ary_incorporated: What is your comment? Are there REAL "transparancies" in that video?

I'm gonna buy Pulseman, a game famous for its many graphical effects, and look for transparencies EVERYWHERE in that game. DO NOT LOCK THIS THREAD... YET!

offcourse not its still a colour in the veine of white,its just colours the become lighter and back to its primiar form,maybe shadow highlight,nothing special,heh pulseman and transparancies i have that game, where can they be found???????,yeah offcourse in rgb or something lol.

[ary incorparated]

you won't find any! :P

the closest to translucency was some Racing game, who's menus used shadow mode to emulate translucency, but was VERY well done...

hmm racing game street racer?.

[evildragon]

yea, street racer...

[Zebbe]

Alianger: I don't recall any joke about that. Tell me about it :P.
A sequel would be nice, yes, but then the original staff would be needed and I doubt they are available today, so many years after, if the company exists still at all.

ary: I don't know! Look around.

[ary incorparated]

Alianger: I don't recall any joke about that. Tell me about it :P.
A sequel would be nice, yes, but then the original staff would be needed and I doubt they are available today, so many years after, if the company exists still at all.

ary: I don't know! Look around.

pulseman?? i,ve finished the entire game ones awesome game awesome baby like dick vital would say,no translucency anywhere ;),altough i am impressed by its colourfull graphics.street racer as been just called in is an awesome game with some nice shadow effects and vectorman is a recall for me,nicest lighning effects i,ve seen on a genesis. i recectly played hard wired and jurasic park lost world man graphic sweetnes semical 3d paralax and many colour burst in screen and big characters which make it look like next gen back then awesome,gotta love the bike chase sequence idea in JP LW.

[Joe Redifer]

Every game should have Dick Vital. He's the reason why the Genesis beat the TurboGrafx!

[Black_Tiger]

About the Monster World IV boss with the transparent clouds. Do the clouds scroll across the screen or are they just static with animation/effects?

If they do move, then it'd be a nice looking cool effect(but I'm guess it'd just be flickering).

If they don't move, then yeah, its just color cycling and/or animation.

But like I said earlier, an effect like that impresses me a lot more than an ugly 'true' transparency on SNES or something.

[Alianger]

@Zebbe, I'm uploading it atm. :) It's right before where you fight the Queen after her corruption. The Aegis boss will be standing there, and he goes: "I am the Warlock of the Heavens!... What? Not now? Ok, forget I just said that."

[Zebbe]

Alianger: Now that I see the vid, I remember I just passed by that Usama-dude and ran to the queen :P.

Joe Redifer: Who is Dick Vital?

[ary incorparated]

Alianger: Now that I see the vid, I remember I just passed by that Usama-dude and ran to the queen :P.

Joe Redifer: Who is Dick Vital?

from dick vitals awesome baby aw aw aw awesome baby basketball.

[Yoshim]

from dick vitals awesome baby aw aw aw awesome baby basketball.

Oh gawd, Dick Vitale. When I worked at Wal-Mart in the early 90's I heard his voice chime in over the Musak to plug some product-maybe even the college hoops game. "Awesome, Baby!" could be heard in my dreams I heard that phrase so much.

[ary incorparated]

aw aw aw some baby,the music continues and some mellow bass and the aggin aw aw aw some baby pretty strange,but lol.

[Black_Tiger]

Now that I saw the MWIV vid, it looks like animation/color cycling or the worst use of tranparency on the Genesis. :p

Although it does look cool, I was more impressed by the awesome background. :)

[Alianger]

Yeah, the foreground cloud looks more like 'dimming' a lightbulb, not sure if that's the english word for it :)

[Zebbe]

Foggy? Misty? :)

[Alianger]

heh, no the "dimmer" function on modern lamps, the ones you turn a switch on and the light slowly fades/gets stronger.

[ary incorparated]

dimmer is also just the dutch word for its i dont know the right word either.

[Joe Redifer]

Dimmer is correct.

[ary incorparated]

anyhow nice game but im not impressed by its effects,yeah i have to agree that i rather somtimes see semi transparancies of the md trying then snes doing real ones.

[Blaze]

I guess you're not familar with the other 'rival console' that is in the thread's topic. ;)







So then you really haven't played many Turbo/PCE games? Then why are you commenting on it in regards of leagues?



U mean TG CD? Yea i forgot about that one....:daze:

[TwistedReality]

First off, it was obviously Sonic, been an avid fan since I first played Sonic 1. I also have to thank Vectorman, that game still looks good even now, and helped the Genises stand up graphically to the SNES. As for the TurboGraphix 16 (or whatever its called), I never had the chance to try one out.

[ary incorparated]

have to agree but snes had games that really awed graphically moving or not it was some pice of hardware of the future only the processing was left behind,digitized or not mnay snes games are surpassing or on par with the colourfull amiga games,but stil genesis for me because it has the advantage of not being a technical supremacy,al the difficult midi shit etc on snes may sound cool but techno or stuff that actually had to be made synth ways or needed several independ sounding instruments then the genesis awes,it could have been pushed further but we got a 32x instead blech.

[Aarzak]

I grew up with it so naturally I'm biased towards Genesis. Too bad most of the big developers either never stopped at the Genesis camp or didn't do much in it (CAPCOM,CAPCOM,CAP-FRIGGIN'COM. I swear they were paid off by Nintendo to not bring their A-teams or A-effort into developing Genesis software. Same goes to a lesser, lesser extent for Konami. Hell EGM kind of alluded that neither brought their A-game for the Genesis in their Video Game timeline for their 2000 Video Game Buyer's Guide.)

[ary incorparated]

nintendo was so sad monopolying the market and making expensive as hell cartdridges,shure the picture of snes doing several tricks and things that even a neo geo rarly does looks nice,but it would be nicer if it worked correct and not corrupt like too many chip in cartridges,the mastersystem puts the snes ashame speedwise thats lol. fucking street fighter alpha on a snes is like a peanut captured in a iron shell,it has everything that it needs only the speed kills the game from running,if it came out on the genesis and capcom did do many effort for that game then a alpha street fighter would have been aweseme.capcom for genesis,fully support imagen it.

[szr]

I could write a short novel about how I ended up buying a Genesis LOL.

I starting buying EGM`s in early 1991. I live in Mexico so I always saved money and go to the USA for the summer and buy games overthere.

That year I remember a kickass Atari Lynx advertisement on EGM. It was more like a 40-page advertisement with lots of cool pictures of games like Blue lightning, Ninja Gaiden and other. I decided to get a Lynx.

I waited a few months until the summer of 1991 arrived. I went to a Toys R Us in California and saw the LYNX in action. It was showing blue lightning in action. It looked better than any portable game I´d seen before so i bought the Lynx. Too bad that Toys R us didnt have ANY lynx games available!!!! I ended up buying the LYNX and hoping I could find the games somewhere else in the following days....

So I had the lynx inside the box for like 2 weeks....I couldnt find games anywhere! After many hours of thought I decided to return it and ask for my money back.

In the following days I started thinking that maybe the Lynx wasnt a good system to own (finding the games was a pain in the ass) So I went to a store in Dowtown LA and bought a Genesis (came with Altered beast Included) and got moonwalker too. As soon as I got to my aunt´s house and hooked the genesis Up, i noticed that there was something strange...the graphics were seriously messed up!!! I had bought a faulty genesis! GRRRRRRRRRRRRRR

So i returned to the store the following day, grabber another genesis. Went to my aunt´s house again.....and ANOTHER faulty genesis! Damn !!! I didnt know what was wrong with the quality assurance from sega! I told my mom about the faulty genesis (again) and she started crying! LOL (we had a little argument with the store owner when we went to return the first genny).

I was lucky one of my cousins gave us the idea of buying a genesis at a Toys R us, swapping the consoles and returning it the same day. Im not happy about this but i DID do it (i was leaving to mexico soon and I still had a faulty genesis). This is how i FINALLY got a working genesis (the third one!). That summer I also bought Super Monaco GP, Golden Axe, Sonic 1. ...what a great summer.

I was dumb enough to sell my genesis collection (around 40 games) back in 1995 when I dropped console gaming and started College. By the time I finished college in 2000 I was in the "console mood" again,,,,and now I have 345 games and MAYBE someday will have the complete set of genesis games..who knows!!!

LONG LIVE THE GENESIS! :)

I suspect the fulty units were either pirated/counterfeits.

[szr]

Is this a "16-bit" system comparison? If so, shouldn't the Intellivision be considered? :)
I really don't think there was a 16 bit Intellivision. I dont' think it was even 8 bit. Only one I remember was in compition with the ColecoVision (a great console for it's time), but I recall it's graphics being more on par with an Atari 2600.

[szr]

Because it takes me back to my childhood.
No other reason really..
I also grew to love the snes as some of the games on it are amazing! I dont beleive in stupid fanboy console wars.
Every platform has its good and bads!

I owned an original NES and a Genesis (my sis and I love that NES when we got it, but oh how we absolutely were takin in by the Genesis!), and played SNES with friends, but never actually owned one.

I think the SNES has it's place as well, even if I was a Sega fan.

But what really pisses me off was Nintendo's anti-competitive practices, not allowing 3rd parties develoipers who made games for NES/SNES to make games for other consoles - blatenly anti competitive and always seemed to me is one of the biggest reasons by far why the Sega Master System didn't do as well. Fortunately the Genesis did better, but I habe to wonder how much furthur Sega could of gone if not for Nintendo's stuipid tactics?

Now don't get me wrong, I know Nintendo was being cautious with the big console console gaming "crash" in the 80's, and I applauded their quality control of games for the most part, but they went a bit too far with the developer locking imho.

After I had heard about what Nintendo had done they never seemed the same in my eyes.

(See more here (the paragraph just before the "1990–1995" section) for some more info on this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Nintendo) - theres more info on wiki and google and such on it too.)

[szr]

Tsk-tsk. No linkey to ROMS, people.
I understand that there sometimes may be legality issues and thati's its the normal to disallow posting links for roms and the likes.

But if I may pose another view on it. These are video games and consoles that are well over a decade out of production. The hardware makers (both Sega and NEC) are long ago out of the hardware business. True, some developers might still be around and could hold copyrights, but I find the vast majaority of cases even if there still copyrights, lets face the facts: emulation sites are all over the 'net. It's not hard to find roms. Even simple search engine queries will usually net you plenty of results.

I guess what I'm saying is it seems that the removal of a linj like above, while it may be for good reasons, just seems a little needless. Even if the hardware maker or developer does happen upon the page and sees the link, it's extrewamly unlikely for anything to happen, and eve nif they do care enough to make noise, step one is to ask the link to be removed.

Just something I thought I'd put on the table. I do respect forum rules and am not advocating breaking them. I am just attempting to convey another way of looking at this and welcome and input/critisms/etc on the subject; I like a good healthy discussion :)

[Iron Lizard]

I agree but ill keep pretending that I don't like roms in order to keep the this site from being shutdown.

[szr]

But I don't thionk anyone has to pretend anything. Simply posting a link has never, to my knowledge (and I've been following things like this for years), shutdown a site outright without first asking that the offense link/etc be removed. In the case of older systems, I think it's more paronia than actual risk, but I guess "better safe than sorry" is the best way to go when you're not sure.

Why pretend? I'd rather just follow the rules and not post a link then to pretend to feel a way I really do not.

In the cases of Genesis/SNES/TG16 era and older consoles/computers, I think emulation is one of the best things let one to enjoy it, especially if they cannot get their hands on the real hardware. Nestopia even emulates the NTSC (artifacts and all) making the NERS on your computer a very real experience (just add a good game pad and you're set.) Ditto with Fusion for SMS and Genesis/MD.

[Gentlegamer]

I really don't think there was a 16 bit Intellivision. I dont' think it was even 8 bit. Only one I remember was in compition with the ColecoVision (a great console for it's time), but I recall it's graphics being more on par with an Atari 2600.
The Intellivision did in fact use a 16-bit processor.

Edit: I never did apologize for the ROM link (though I think it was to an ISO, actually). I'm sorry. I understand there are mixed feelings on emulation.

[Genesis Knight]

Asking for and posting ROMS is against the TOS, and that's all that matters. As a mod I could care less about the rest, even if I might personally agree with what you're saying.


It's not hard to find roms.

Then everybody can just find their own and not link to them. Deal? :D

[szr]

Here you go:

http://pixelcraze.film-tech.net/crap/space-harrier.png

4,221 colors.
And this was on the genesis? IF this is an actual game (hence the options screen?), then what game is that. All I can say is wow. I know they had to balance graphics and cpu power, so it seems had the genesis had more CPU it could of dished out some incridible looking games! (Even way more so then soem of the genesis greats.)

[szr]

Asking for and posting ROMS is against the TOS, and that's all that matters. As a mod I could care less about the rest, even if I might personally agree with what you're saying.Fair enough. I hte to nitpick but isn't more about posting then, and not so much about asking (I can see people asking and getting repleis via PM or email) ?


Then everybody can just find their own and not link to them. Deal? :DI don't think I displayed intentions otherwise. I even said at least twice I respect the rules and would not voilate them.

[Zebbe]

And this was on the genesis? IF this is an actual game (hence the options screen?), then what game is that. All I can say is wow. I know they had to balance graphics and cpu power, so it seems had the genesis had more CPU it could of dished out some incridible looking games! (Even way more so then soem of the genesis greats.)

The Genesis does the text, the 32X the background. I don't think processing power add much to increase possible colours on screen...

[Genesis Knight]

And this was on the genesis? IF this is an actual game (hence the options screen?), then what game is that.

The screen is from Space Harrier 32X. Yes it really exists; I used to own it until just recently.

And requesting ROMS is "warez begging" which also is against the ToS. I"m not saying you"re in trouble or anything; I"m just restating the rules of the board.

[szr]

Elusive, the colors are reduced because the text (created by the Genesis) contains fewer colors than the graphics behind it. Hold one of your hands out at a distance and look at it. Now put something between your face and your hand. You can't see your hand any more!!!! That is what is happening with the text on top of the Space Harrier backdrop. If you put a giant screen of grey in front of it, it would only have 1 color. Take it away and you get over 4,200.

Another way to explain it is, if you've ever used Photoshop, the way layers are stacked on top of each other - it's just like that; like a text layer on top of a background layer. That's essentially what it is... 32x does the background layer, while the genesis is doing the text layer in the fore ground (or "above" the background layer.)

[szr]

The screen is from Space Harrier 32X. Yes it really exists; I used to own it until just recently.
I am definately going to have to find this one :)



And requesting ROMS is "warez begging" which also is against the ToS.

With all due respect, "Warez" and "Roms" are two different things. I've far to often seen them lumped int othe same ball of wax but they really are mutally exclusive. You cannot say search nad downloading for, say, Photoshop CS is the same as looking for, say, Genesis or Nintendo roms.

I personally don't see why merely asking something like "oh and btw, if anyone knows where I can find hard-to-find-game-abc or xyz please drop me an email" could possibly be of any harm to anyone.


I"m not saying you"re in trouble or anything; I"m just restating the rules of the board.

I already stated I understand the rules/tos, and I have not nor would I violate them. I respect the rules of any board or site I visit or service I use.

[szr]

I grew up with it so naturally I'm biased towards Genesis. Too bad most of the big developers either never stopped at the Genesis camp or didn't do much in it (CAPCOM,CAPCOM,CAP-FRIGGIN'COM. I swear they were paid off by Nintendo to not bring their A-teams or A-effort into developing Genesis software. Same goes to a lesser, lesser extent for Konami. Hell EGM kind of alluded that neither brought their A-game for the Genesis in their Video Game timeline for their 2000 Video Game Buyer's Guide.)

Actually Nintendo did get into some trouble over developer locking (preventing them from developing for other systems with the original NES and the SNES for it's first year to two befroe they were forced to stop because of the blatent anti-competitive nature of it. I suspect this either held over in some ways or Nintendo may have bene paying some off like you mentioned Capcom. I wouldn't be suprised.

[Mr Smith]

Why is it when people put ToS I automatically think of Star Trek?
God I love Patrick Stewart :D

[szr]

Yeah that light came on in my head as well :)

[Mr Smith]

Yeah that light came on in my head as well :)
What, love for Patrick Stewart?
You are a man/woman/cyborg with good taste. :D

[szr]

I meant the ToS -> the original serries, but yes I thought Picard filled his roll well.

[Mel]

Wow, this thread still lives...

Ok on platformers that made each system legendary

Bonk, Sonic, and Super Mario World respectively right?

Edited for grammar/spelling.

[Black_Tiger]

Wow, this thread still lives...

Ok on platformers that made each system legendary

Bonk, Sonic, and Super Mario World respectively right?

Edited for grammar/spelling.

Since you picked SMW instead of just "Mario", I'd say:

Bonk's Revenge, Sonic 2 and Super Mario World.

I guess the SNES benefited from instant legendariness since SMW was a pack-in. ;)

[Mel]

Since you picked SMW instead of just "Mario", I'd say:

Bonk's Revenge, Sonic 2 and Super Mario World.

I guess the SNES benefited from instant legendariness since SMW was a pack-in. ;)

Bonk's Revenge and Sonic 2 were pack ins as well at some point weren't they? I knew lots of people who had the Sonic 2 and not the original.

[Black_Tiger]

Bonk's Revenge and Sonic 2 were pack ins as well at some point weren't they? I knew lots of people who had the Sonic 2 and not the original.

I meant pack-in from day one of the hardware launch.

Things would've been a lot different if the TG-16 and Genesis launched their hardware packed with Bonk's Adventure and Sonic 1 or even if they'd been available seperately. :)

[Blaze]

Still, even with all the Power the Super Nes and PC Engine CD had...I still stand to my earlier statement. They just culdn't offer that Sega feeling to me, no matter how powerfull, how colorfull or how advanced...Sega had its own thing going on. Just comin to this site and lookin at the cast of popular Sega 16 characters (Sonic, Vec, Gunstar Red, Jim & Ecco) gives me the chills to go grab a game n start playing for hours



thats my personal opinion

[Black_Tiger]

Still, even with all the Power the Super Nes and PC Engine CD had...I still stand to my earlier statement. They just culdn't offer that Sega feeling to me, no matter how powerfull, how colorfull or how advanced...Sega had its own thing going on.


Is that anything like the arcade feel?

[Gentlegamer]

Is that anything like the arcade feel?Is it more intense?

[Blaze]

haha, hell ya. Both Arcade and Home gaming, but in a way that only Sega culd deliver with the power of Genz/Megadrive, 32X & CD combined :cool:




Off to play Alien Soldier, wish me luk ppl :daze:

[j_factor]

Is it more intense?

It doesn't even compare!!!

[Mel]

Particularly the older games have a weird way of doing parallax layers. Having background layers like that always gets me. Especially with darker backgrounds.

[frikiloko]

If I had to choose a console between Megadrive, PC-Engine and Super Nintendo, I would choose Megadrive.Technologically the best one is Super Nintendo,comparing games between Megadrive and PC-Engine, there are some games better in PC-Engine like Lords of Thunder or Devil's Crush and there are some games better in Megadrive like Golden Axe or Altered Beast.But this is not important,perhaps a long time ago it was an obsession what console was more powerful,but now if I want power I play arcade games in Mame but I prefer to more play Megadrive than to Mame.The reason is that exclusive Megadrive games for my are the best:Ecco the Dolphin, Ristar, Golden Axe II, Street of Rage, Aladdin, Dick Tracy...

[tomaitheous]

Technically, (as we have mentioned before) the Genesis's main processor is actually 32-bit. It has a 16-bit external bus, but the ALU is 32 bits. In terms of internal calculations, the 32-bit processor can process information in chunks that are four times larger than the 8-bit. So if you were using the two as math calculators, the 32-bit could handle larger numbers per calculation -- say you had a huge integer at 30 bits in length, the 8-bit processor would have to separate it into four chunks while the 32-bit processor could handle it by itself.

What this means is that if you have an 8-bit processor and a 32-bit processor with comparable specs, the 32-bit is significantly more powerful in terms of being able to compute more information faster. As to how this difference is quantified, or the finer points of how this applies to videogames, I'm not really sure.

If I remember correctly, the Turbografx has two 8-bit CPUs and a 16-bit GPU, so its power should be relatively close to the Genny's.

The 68000 doesn't have a 32bit ALU. The 68020 changed the ALU to 32bit. The 68000 had two 16bit ALU units and that's why operations with long word(32biit) operand take longer than byte/word operand, for execution time. What does that mean? It saves some cycles because you don't have to use additional instructions for extend operations for larger arithmetic/logic calculations, and it guarantees faster operation (for this long word operations) when the ALU is upgraded in the next series of processors.

Video games of that era *rarely* if ever needed or used 32bit operand instructions. 1) there isn't a need for 32bit integers for such simplistic operations, 2) it's faster to use 16bit integers. The reason why integers now a days are 32bit, is that it's faster than using 16 or 8bit integers (calculation and byte alignment reasons)

Believe it or not but the 65c02 and the 68k's little brother the 6809, are faster/more efficient in clock cycles than the 68k - at the same mhz. Loading an immediate on a 65c02/6809 is 2 cycles while 4 on the 68k, and operations such as incrementing variables(very common) in memory are faster than on the 68k. Jump instructions, calling subroutines(JSR), interrupts calls,etc are faster on 65c02/6809. If you know your cpu history, you know that the 6502 was designed by the same guy and team as the 6800.

65c02 is very efficient, processing an internal operation while loading the next byte at the same time, and runs pretty fast with optimized code. A testament to the 65c02 is that it's still in production today and is currently the only processor qualified to run life support medical equipment.

The TG16's cpu is based on the 65c02, but with added custom instructions. It has a single cpu running at 7.16mhz.

The Genesis 68000@7.6mhz and the TG16@7.16mhz are both quite up to snuff. It's the Genesis' VDP is where the difference comes in. The second BG layer adds that depth we all love, it's used very often for large parts of Bosses as well. The only edge I can think of (besides TG16 32 palettes vs GEN 4 palettes), is that the TG16 VDC (equiv to VDP) registers and VRAM can be written to at *any* point during active display without delay or penalty, while the SNES/MD can't. And the TG16 can store GFX as embedded instructions - like the amiga (speed of DMA but *can* be interrupted by IRQs) - though only really useful for the arcade card since it doubles the required space.

As for hucards, the TG16 is pretty crippled with just 8k of ram and usually had really poor compression schemes(8k is pretty limited). Most hucards just stored tiles/sprites as 3bit (8color) format to save space. Street Fighter 2, Soldier Blade, and Parodius being some of the exceptions.

[Genesis Knight]

Good lord - technical overload! I'm out of here before the gunfight begins. :)

[Mel]

Value of the system should be measured mostly on fun value. Why do you think ps2 won last generation? The sony hype machine killed dreamcast, weakened gamecube, and xbox was too new to be trusted. Ultimately PS2 had the largest funnest library and had backwards compatability with ps1.

Ps1 wasnt the most powerful system of that generation either. Saturn had more 2d capability (with ease) n64 had more 3d capability. The games made the system.

[Joe Redifer]

Of course they do, but it is fun to talk about the specs and about what each machine can and can't do... or might be able to do. But let's not kid ourselves. If it was ONLY about the games, we'd all still be playing NES right now and no newer systems would have ever become more popular.

[Gentlegamer]

Of course they do, but it is fun to talk about the specs and about what each machine can and can't do... or might be able to do. But let's not kid ourselves. If it was ONLY about the games, we'd all still be playing NES right now and no newer systems would have ever become more popular.No, Atari!

[Iron Lizard]

One thing i think people leave out in this argument how Nec charged it's customers up the nose for everything. The tg16 has only one controller port, the cords on the controllers are like 3 feet long making extension cords popular, for composite video one has to either buy a turbo booster or the cd player. That adds up.

[tomaitheous]

One thing i think people leave out in this argument how Nec charged it's customers up the nose for everything. The tg16 has only one controller port, the cords on the controllers are like 3 feet long making extension cords popular, for composite video one has to either buy a turbo booster or the cd player. That adds up.

Hell yeah they did:? When Hudson took over and changed the company to TTi, the Duo with packin was a more reasonable offering (minus the 5 player tap).



Ps1 wasnt the most powerful system of that generation either. Saturn had more 2d capability (with ease) n64 had more 3d capability. The games made the system.

Man, the PS1 3D was pretty nasty back then, for the most part. FF9 had some decent 3D, but the frame was low like most PS1 games. I had put up with the crappy 3D back then even though I thought most of it looked liked crap. Now a days, NES graphics are easier on the eyes than most 3D from that era.

[Mel]

If you argue technical is everything NeoGeo won or better yet 32x heh. Its pretty clear TG16, Gen, SNES are all in the same category more or less on a competitive technical level.

So in the end, it's what the developers did with the system ^.-

[Iron Lizard]

If you argue technical is everything NeoGeo won or better yet 32x heh. Its pretty clear TG16, Gen, SNES are all in the same category more or less on a competitive technical level.

So in the end, it's what the developers did with the system ^.-

and if the 1st party( Nintendo) let or they were smart enough to bring what the developers in Japan did to the rest of the world.

[Joe Redifer]

If you argue technical is everything
Nobody is.

[Mr Smith]

Man, the PS1 3D was pretty nasty back then, for the most part. FF9 had some decent 3D, but the frame was low like most PS1 games. I had put up with the crappy 3D back then even though I thought most of it looked liked crap. Now a days, NES graphics are easier on the eyes than most 3D from that era.
3D was crappy when it was first implimented :o
Why that is like saying Space Invader or PacMan grapichs were inferior to the Mega Drive.

[Joe Redifer]

Very true, of course. But I think the point is that many people (like me) found it very ugly even back then.

[Genesis Knight]

It still boggles a lot of people (including myself) that people would give up increasingly gorgeous 2D sprite games for low-res, low-color, grainy, warpy, low-framerate 3D stuff.

[Mr Smith]

To be fair, graphics (and music) do not make a game good or bad. The PlayStation games look crap, but there is still some awesome gaming to be had on it. Granted it would be nice to see some awesomely huge 2D games released now (especially platformers which are utter tosh in 3D) but if the gameplay sucks like a discounted whore, then what's the point?

[Mel]

To be fair, graphics (and music) do not make a game good or bad. The PlayStation games look crap, but there is still some awesome gaming to be had on it. Granted it would be nice to see some awesomely huge 2D games released now (especially platformers which are utter tosh in 3D) but if the gameplay sucks like a discounted whore, then what's the point?


Proof that 2d would've been better. Guilty Gear X. Just gorgeous, all 2d.

If they would've continued to do good 2d games, with for example the Saturn, then they would've shown 2d to be superior. SF Alpha 2 was much prettier than Tekken. And I love tekken (fun factor wins again)

I would've much rather have seen a Saturn 32-bit Sonic 4 in 2d. and then 3d games on the dreamcast. Instead we got Chaotix, and Sonic R. ... <sigh>

[Mel]

Added Poll to this thread.

[Lesko900]

In regards to the poll, it's a tough call. I owned a Sega Genesis as a child and I loved it. (Technically, it wasn't my first console, because I remember playing my Master System when I was very young). My aunt had an SNES and I'd remember enjoying it greatly when I went over her house, though my own household was decidedly, and randomly, very anti-Nintendo. My uncle hated Nintendo products for some reason, so I stuck with Sega; Sega CD, Sega Saturn, until moving on to a PlayStation 1. I truthfully didn't even know about the T6-16 until maybe... 2000 or so? I've never even played it. Back when I was little, I rarely got game magazines and had minimal internet access, so. I'm choosing Genesis, because all of my best younger video game memories come from it.

[Jay See Double You]

Wow! It looks like this thread has been dead for quite some time! I thought it'd be better to revive it than the create a new one though (especially when I discovered how limiting the poll options were on Sega 16) :)

This is an interesting question for me. Whenever I try to give a robust answer to this question it comes out as a book that would probably be better in chapter and verse format. ;)

Video games in general are definitely not my favorite subject of conversation and for lack of a better term, meditation, but under the umbrella of all things video games, there is not a single subject that I find more enjoyable to discuss and debate and ponder than the comparative hardware merits/demerits of the SNES vs the Genesis (TG16 is a more than welcome guest to these discussions as well), that's why my responses on these tend to be so long despite my best efforts to keep them short!

Well, I started writing determined to keep it short, but despite my best efforts, it turned into a novel again. :) As a result, I took this intro and made one short post out of it, and kept the long body and made it a second post.

Please forgive the length of it. I'll try to make long posts like it a real rarity (though I had intended this to be short when I started)

Okay, so the short, short version: Genesis is my favorite overall. SNES is 2nd and TG16 is 3rd.

For more details, read my next post! :D

[Jay See Double You]

Comparing Genesis to SNES directly now:

Graphics: Ultimately a tie. SNES has more colors, better colors, and doesn't distort its own colors. SNES picture is much sharper than Genesis' picture (though both can look good, and both can look bad [genesis blurry/snes overly sharp and jaggy]) and SNES has more onboard effects such as mode 7. -HOWEVER- Genesis had higher resolution, larger sprites (larger-on-screen despite resolution), more detailed sprites, more sprites on-screen at once without slowdown, and more fluidly animated sprites. There are times where the SNES looks better and times where the Genesis looks better. It's mostly a matter of context.

Sound: Ultimately a tie. SNES uses a PCM Wavetable which is primarily sample-based and as a result, is capable of much more realistic synths than the Genesis' Yamaha FM chip. SNES Can do convincing replications of several instruments, some of which Genesis can also do (organs), but most of which Genesis cannot do (strings). However, due to a combination of small sample sizes (to keep from exceeding system memory limitations, I suppose), gaussian interpolation (to prevent aliasing) and a 32k high frequency cutoff the SNES tracks often sound at best a little muffled, at worst, muddy, and don't seem to have as broad of a tonal range. The sounds the Genesis FM chip is able to produce are more rudimentary and more obviously fake, but they tend to be cleaner, clearer, more dynamic in terms of highs and lows, and punchier (particularly on the drums.) It may be misusing the term somewhat, but I tend to think of the Genesis's sound as more "high-fidelity" because of this. As a PCM wavetable, the SNES is like a distant cousin of General Midi, and shares it's ability to really achieve some really convincing results. Plus all the non CD-Rom games that came out on PC in the early-mid 90's that used General Midi are going to bear more resemblance to SNES than Genesis. On the other hand, the Genesis was FM....just like most of the arcade games from the mid 80's to early 90's, so almost without fail, the Genesis music of arcade ports is going to sound a lot more authentic than the SNES ports. To paraphrase I don't remember who: "if someone created a soundtrack for each system that took full advantage of what that system is truly capable of, the two soundtracks would sound absolutely nothing alike, but would both sound about equally fantastic. The reason the Genesis gets its reputation of being inferior is because of all the hack ports of SNES games dumped on the Genesis without utilizing the music for its sound system." I think Mr. So and So is absolutely right! I think they're both wonderful, and the comparative merits of each one sort of cancels out the comparative merits of the other.

Games: Even if you could say my assessment of the graphics and sound carry any objectivity at all, this category is completely subjective on my part. The shortest answer is that I just like the games on the Genesis better. The next shortest answer is that Genesis had a lot -more- "greats", even if SNES had -better- "greats." The longer answer is that I think a higher number of "the greatest of the greats" are on the SNES (mostly 1st party Nintendo, and 3rd party Konami/Capcom), and many of the franchises that rocked the NES were either SNES only, or were not amazing on the Genesis (such as contra or adventure island.) or came much later (Castlevania.) However, there were a whole lot more games on the Genesis that were at least "very good" than there were on the SNES. With the SNES, it seems to me that there were very few "decent" games...they were either extraordinary, or they were crap. I also think that most of the games that were on both systems, but were not the same game, only the same franchise (I.e. Aladdin, Alien 3, and Jurassic Park) were better on the Genesis. In the final analysis, I give the win to the Genesis. I think I just have more fun playing it.

Peripherals: Sega had two add-ons. While there's hot debate over whether these ultimately helped or hurt the Genesis, I think think that on balance, they were more of a plus than a minus. Nintendo was supposed to have one, but do to an executive blunder that add-on would come to SNES, but would come to be known to the world instead as the Sony Playstation and Nintendo has never truly recovered in the market since. There isn't a controller in the world that I like better than the original 3-button Genesis controller, and the only one that even comes close is actually the 3DO controller, which is essentially a hybrid of the Genny 3-button and an SNES controller. It is nice that you only need one controller for the SNES, and that there aren't games divided between 3 buttons and 6 buttons, but for games like SFII, the control scheme is a little awkward, and the controllers feel far less substantial and look far less pretty than the Genny 3-button. The Genny 6-button is no more substantial feeling or cosmetically appealing than the SNES controller, but it's buttons are placed more logically and comfortably. Both systems had guns, though since I never used either, I can't comment on who wins that. SNES had a mouse, but Genesis had Activator (besides, didn't Genesis also have a mouse for "Art Alive?"). In General, I think I have to give this one to the Genesis.

General Aesthetics: This is -the very least- important aspect of our consideration -by far-, but it's worth looking at. I like the look of the 1st generation Genesis with it's smart combination of glossy black and flat matte black, as well as a smart combo of smooth round domed surfaces and edgy planar surfaces. Plus I really liked its "16-Bit" decal. The SNES with it's pillared, multi-tierd, planes may have looked very stately, and appealing, but just didn't have that "umph" that the Sega had. It was only bland by comparison, but it was bland by comparison all the same. I also preferred the 2nd gen Genesis to the 2nd gen SNES...the most boring looking system in the world. The 2nd generation Genesis was far less impressive looking that the firt gen, but it retained the winning combination of flat matte / high gloss black, and edgy-planar surfaces / rounded domed surfaces. The 2nd gen SNES had nothing! I was a million times a bigger fan of the plastic clamshell cases than I was of the boring looking and less durable SNES cardboard boxes, and I love the semi-standard boot-up sequence on the Sega with just the right blend of uniformity and flexibility for creativity....SNES didn't have anything at all to compete....lame. This category goes to the Genesis as well.

Overall: Well, when comparing the two as pieces of hardware, the Graphics and Sound are the two most important considerations. I call them a tie in each of these categories, though my heart really leans, I think a little towards the Sega in both these respects. I think the Genesis is the better overall piece of hardware though, simply because it's more balanced. It had less sophisticated graphics and sound hardware, but it had a beefy CPU that could push them both to their stated limits (and really, beyond) whereas the SNES had more sophisticated graphics and sound hardware, but both were choked by insufficient memory on the audio side, and and asthmatic CPU on the graphics side. As a result, the Graphics and sound come out to a tie as we've discussed, whereas with a beefier CPU, they would've both gone to the SNES...then again, with a beefier processor, the SNES probably would've priced itself right out of the market, so it probably worked out for the best, and gives us the opportunity for fascinating hardware conversations. I guess I'm just friendlier to the overall Genesis architecture as a result. Now, when comparing them as an entertainment medium, games are far and away the most important thing, and in this case, I think the Genesis carries the day. Peripherals are less important, and aesthetics are least important by a million miles, but I give them to Sega anyway. As a result, I think the Genesis is both the better hardware platform, the better software platform, and the better entertainment medium in general. Sega wins.

Now, how does TG16 fare in all of this?

Well, in terms of graphics, it's much closer to the SNES than the Genesis (in both the positive and negative senses). It does an amazingly good job of competing with both considering it's CPU is actually 8-bit instead of 16-bit, as well as its card medium, and I have not seen bigger sprites anywhere in the 16-bit world outside of Neo Geo than on TG16's "China Warrior", those graphics are simply amazing despite the ho-hum gameplay...it's more of a tech-demo than a game, I think. But with an even larger total color palette to choose from, and with more built-in effects like Mode 7, I think the SNES still slightly edges it out in terms of graphics.......ever so barely. In the final analysis, I'm going to almost give it a tie, but give it a very, very close bronze.

In terms of sound, it's much closer to the Genesis than the SNES (in both the positive and negative senses), but is far more basic and rudimentary than either of the two. It's possible that the sound system is the greatest hardware weakness of the TG16. It sometimes sounds more like an NES than either SNES or Genesis, and sometimes sounds more like a Genesis. It is even more abrasive and aggressive than the notoriously harsh Genesis, and the overall sound quality can vary quite a bit. It's got some really nice stuff, and the TG16 SFIICE soundtrack was closer to arcade perfect than SNES's was...still, it gets the bronze.

In terms of games, I think the fact that we in the states got shortchanged so many good japanese games is pretty hard to excuse. There are a lot of great games for the TG16, but both in terms of quality and quantity, I think it comes in third yet again. Though in it's defense, what it gets in exchange for market success, deep diversity, and mass appeal is niche cult status, and a real underground feel to the games, and to the whole thing, really, which, in all honesty, I kinda like!

In terms of accessories, I find them mostly more confusing than beneficial. A card for this, a card for that, only one controller port on the system requiring a multi-tap. No AV on a standard TG16 deck (I have a Turbo Duo, so that's not a concern to me), etc make this one a 3rd again. I do like the adaptor that allows you to play japanese hu-cards on an american system, though...that's a nice touch! I also like the cosmetics on the controllers, and the selectable turbo feature, but beyond that, it's a glorified NES controller.

In terms of aesthetics, I need to think about this one a bit more. I may be able to give this one a silver instead of a bronze. The CD case is kinda neat, though you have to have the outer sleeve to see the game pics and game description. The hu-cards are very space efficient, but I'm always afraid of breaking or losing them. And what's up with "Run" instead of "Start?" I dunno, this is a tough call between SNES or TG16 for the silver....I think I've gotta give the silver again to the SNES....though I do like the cosmetics of the Turbo Duo system better than that of the SNES. The Turbo Duo is just a really nice looking system. Understated elegance.

Now, it should be noted in the TG16s defense that I didn't have one growing up. I didn't get one til late November, early December 2000 (and I would've been 20 by that time, only a few months from 21.) My Mom and Dad originally bought us a TG16 for Christmas 1992, but took it back before Christmas day in exchange for an SNES. (we know this because we snooped around....weren't we surprised to see the SNES instead!). The Genesis we first got used in a garage sale in Sept of 1993. It is possible that my outlook would be different if I actually grew up with a TG16...then again, maybe not: back in the day, I was adamantly pro-SNES, even after I got the Genesis and had it for a while. It wasn't til I was in my early 20's that my opinion on the matter began to change, and even more recent than that that I really became really solidly persuaded of that position. Call me a late convert.

But that's my take on Genesis vs SNES vs TG16. Sorry for such a long post. I hope for those who didn't think it was "TLDR" that it was substantial enough ot have been worth the time.

God Bless!

-J

[SegaMan89]

Just Sonic alone made me love the Genesis :)