Sonic 3D Blast Differences...

[The Sports Guy]

Seeing as I dont own a Saturn, I was wondering if there were any differences between the Genesis version of Sonic 3D Blast and the Saturn version.

[Aarzak]

Here's an example, as words couldn't adequately describe this:

S3DB (Genesis) - Rusty Ruin Zone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GxX2yLUHdo

S3DB (Saturn) - Rusty Ruin Zone:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jqC04Y7hjqU

S3DB (Genesis) - Special Stages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bNHFba0hgFQ

S3DB (Saturn) - Special Stages:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AsED4AOAE68

S3DB (PC) - Green Grove Zone and Special Stage (YUCK!):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tmwU7AAHJ0o

Gameplay/Graphics-wise:

Saturn>>>>>>>>>>>>PC>>Genesis (PC has worst Special Stages)

[Zebbe]

Ha. The extra life jingle in the Saturn version sounded very SNES somehow ^^.

[Mr Smith]

Loved the rain in Rusty Ruin. The game looks and sounds much better, just a shame the Sonic 3D gameplay was so tosh.

[Joe Redifer]

I see transparent clouds in the Saturn version. People who hate Saturn continually bitch about how it is IMPOSSIBLE for the Saturn to do transparencies. Of course these people are experts on the Saturn, so it must be true and therefore the video is a lie.

[Aarzak]

The PC version, while apparently having the same basic enhanced graphics as the Saturn version, is missing some of the special/weather effects, like the aforementioned fog in Rusty Ruin. That, along with the fact that the Saturn version has the best Special Stage (programmed by Sega of Japan) out of the 3, means that the Saturn 3D Blast is the best. I always wanted that version as I played and looked at my lowly Genesis 3D Blast, but then and now I didn't want to have to buy a Saturn just for it.

And Joe, its been said that Traveller's Tales really worked wonders with the Saturn hardware, and that they achieved true transparencies on the Saturn again with "Sonic R".

..........GOD does the Special Stage in PC 3D Blast suck. It looked horrible enough in photos, but actually seeing it in motion............man, its like the worst of both worlds. It reeks of cack.

[Black_Tiger]

The commonly (/only?) used transparency effect is easy for the Saturn to do, was seen in games from the first generation onward and isn't a pixelly messes like on Playstation. The Saturn just "cross disolves" one cpu's graphics with the other's.

Anti-Saturn nerds would argue that they aren't "true" transparencies, since they will only appear transparent over the one plain's visuals, one of which is usually not 3D.

But they can smoothly(60 fps?) shift opacity and can be used to render "true" transparent 3D images, instead of the ugly transparent-polygons effect used into and perhaps right through the next generation.

The shortcoming of this effect can be seen in games like Pandemonium, when the transparent shield appears opaque as parts of it cross over the 2D backdrop.

[Joe Redifer]

Actually the fact of the matter is that the Saturn CAN do transparencies, but only with 2D objects like background layers. It can't do transparent polygons. However it can be tricked to that it looks like the polygons are transparent and a 2D background is behind it when in fact the 2D layer is the one on top and transparent. Sonic R did indeed have a few transparent polygons without the 2D opacity trick.

Why games like Dracula X Nocturne in da Moonlight use dithered mesh where the PS used transparencies is beyond me. Likely because it is a port of the PS version and assembled in a similar way (using polygons instead of sprites). If it had used real sprites, it'd likely have had transparencies. Damn those lazy developers! Actually, I think it would have required less effort to build sprites rather than recode polygons into the 4-sided things that the Saturn uses instead.

[tomaitheous]

Actually the fact of the matter is that the Saturn CAN do transparencies, but only with 2D objects like background layers. It can't do transparent polygons. However it can be tricked to that it looks like the polygons are transparent and a 2D background is behind it when in fact the 2D layer is the one on top and transparent. Sonic R did indeed have a few transparent polygons without the 2D opacity trick.

Why games like Dracula X Nocturne in da Moonlight use dithered mesh where the PS used transparencies is beyond me. Likely because it is a port of the PS version and assembled in a similar way (using polygons instead of sprites). If it had used real sprites, it'd likely have had transparencies. Damn those lazy developers! Actually, I think it would have required less effort to build sprites rather than recode polygons into the 4-sided things that the Saturn uses instead.

'Cause the saturn is ungodly inferior to the PS1, it's not even remotely funny. Everybody on the internet knows this.... guuaaadddd.:daze:

[Black_Tiger]

Actually the fact of the matter is that the Saturn CAN do transparencies, but only with 2D objects like background layers. It can't do transparent polygons. However it can be tricked to that it looks like the polygons are transparent and a 2D background is behind it when in fact the 2D layer is the one on top and transparent. Sonic R did indeed have a few transparent polygons without the 2D opacity trick.

Why games like Dracula X Nocturne in da Moonlight use dithered mesh where the PS used transparencies is beyond me. Likely because it is a port of the PS version and assembled in a similar way (using polygons instead of sprites). If it had used real sprites, it'd likely have had transparencies. Damn those lazy developers! Actually, I think it would have required less effort to build sprites rather than recode polygons into the 4-sided things that the Saturn uses instead.

There are games like Shining Force III that have transparent 3D objects that stay transparent over other 3D graphics, I just don't know for sure how they're acheived.

From what I've read over the years, because of 'how the plumbing works', most developers rendered most of the 3D in games with one processor and left simpler visuals, usually 2D stuff, to the other processor to do. Which would explain (if the cross disolving between processors trick I've also read about is true) why transparencies usually involve a 2D layer.

If someone had both processors rendering 3D at the same time, then the cross disolve effect could be used to make transparent 3D over 3D.

[Silanda]

Why games like Dracula X Nocturne in da Moonlight use dithered mesh where the PS used transparencies is beyond me. Likely because it is a port of the PS version and assembled in a similar way (using polygons instead of sprites). If it had used real sprites, it'd likely have had transparencies. Damn those lazy developers! Actually, I think it would have required less effort to build sprites rather than recode polygons into the 4-sided things that the Saturn uses instead.

Ok, I'm not a coder so someone correct me if I'm wrong here. IIRC that wouldn't be a simple as it seems, Dracula X can contain 2D planes in front of the sprites as well as 2D and 3D backgrounds. Making the sprites transparent without ever glitching (especially where there are 3D backgrounds, which IIRC would not be rendered behind the transparent object if it used the same trick as Shining Force III) wouldn't have been easy.

Pandemonium looks like it is just using half transparency in VDP1. The saturn could do that in hardware, but it was glitchy and limited in use.


There are games like Shining Force III that have transparent 3D objects that stay transparent over other 3D graphics, I just don't know for sure how they're acheived.


I can't remember the intricacies of this, but IIRC it goes something like this: The transparent objects are first rendered as opaque in VDP1, and are then copied to VDP2 as a background plane where they can be blended with other backgrounds. However, since they were opaque in VDP1 any other polygon object will disappear as they pass behind them as they wouldn't have been present in VDP1's output. The only 3D visible behind them are mode 7 style backgrounds generated by VDP2.

[Joe Redifer]

Can't the Saturn do transparent sprites? If so, it doesn't matter what is in front of or behind the sprite in that case.

Did the Saturn have dual frame buffers? Usually what I've seen from systems with that do a cross dissolve (including the PS2) is that one of the images must be completely still. When a dissolve happens the outgoing scene freezes. That means if there was a 50% opacity trick between processors, they both couldn't be moving unless the hardware had dual frame buffers.

[Silanda]

Can't the Saturn do transparent sprites? If so, it doesn't matter what is in front of or behind the sprite in that case.

Did the Saturn have dual frame buffers? Usually what I've seen from systems with that do a cross dissolve (including the PS2) is that one of the images must be completely still. When a dissolve happens the outgoing scene freezes. That means if there was a 50% opacity trick between processors, they both couldn't be moving unless the hardware had dual frame buffers.

It did have dual frame buffers, but each belongs to a separate VDP. The way I understand it, sprites and polygons are done on VDP1. These can be made 50% transparent, but since VDP1 can only see its own frame buffer they are only transparent against VDP1 objects. Background layers are usually handled by VDP2 so any half transparent sprite passing in front of VDP2's background will become solid, as I think is happening in Pandemonium.

VDP2 has more blending modes but using them to make sprites or polygons transparent is difficult, hence shining force's problems.