What are 10 Things You Would Like to Change about the Genesis?

[esb09]

H/T to the Change 10 Things about the SNES thread. 10 things or less you would change about the Genesis/Mega Drive if you could. Use 1988 technology and keep the cost reasonable.

[RegalSin]

I like it the way it is since I can refer to it as the DeathStar and Deathstar II that was not even complete or missing parts.

[xbrinkx]

I'm sure...if it wasn't complete, I don't think it would function - but hey, maybe that's just me.
As for the 10 things I would change for the Genesis...
just a larger palette (at least 4096 colors, like the stock Amiga)

[Rusty Venture]

I'd give it the same pallet as the TG-16
S-video hook up standard.
Blue LED instead of a red one

Thats about it really.

[Psy]

Going with the model 2 cable from the start, the Genesis has stereo sound so I really don't know why they stuck with the same mono cable as the Master System. Also would have liked the stereo jack to have remained in the model 2.

[RegalSin]

I just wish the darn thing had controller that I could grasp. It went threw like three revisons before finally making a better controller then the Saturn....There I said it.

I has a whole bunch of unused space inside. It should be glossy like the PS3. It gets scratched too easily. The game cases is also lacking creative art and structure for most original games.

Into the late 90's the cases still look like MS covers with the oh so cheap blue lines. Where the heck is my background characters and coloring I paid that extra 20 bucks for. It is so depression to look at
the boxart esxpecially when you think about the color control that went into it.

[j_factor]

1. More games
2. Better games
3. Larger color palette, 4096 would have been good
4. More RAM
5. An extra channel or two of PCM audio
6. Stereo sound out of the a/v jack
7. 6-button controller from the start
8. Stayed with plastic boxes for the full lifespan
9. Scaling and rotation (hey, the Lynx had it)
10. 32x doesn't exist

[xbrinkx]

1. More games
2. Better games
3. Larger color palette, 4096 would have been good
4. More RAM
5. An extra channel or two of PCM audio
6. Stereo sound out of the a/v jack
7. 6-button controller from the start
8. Stayed with plastic boxes for the full lifespan
9. Scaling and rotation (hey, the Lynx had it)
10. 32x doesn't exist

1. More games - absolutely
5. An extra channel or two of PCM audio would've been nice, but the Mega Drive / Genesis did a great job of producing some very nice synthesized music.
6. I agree
7. I agree
8. I agree
9. The Mega Drive / Genesis could do scaling and rotation via software since the CPU was fast enough, but the SNES had it built in so it was easier to utilize.

[tomaitheous]

I'd give it the same pallet as the TG-16
S-video hook up standard.
Blue LED instead of a red one

Thats about it really.

Ahaha.. that made me out loud. And I agree.

1. Blue LED instead of a red one.
2. nothing else.

[Joe Redifer]

1. Blue LED. Only god damn assholes like red LEDs. I hope anyone who likes red LEDs gets cancer in the face. Only cool kidz like blu ledz. blu wud make sistem soo much bettrz lololol. Seriously though, I don't understand the fascination modders have with blue LEDs. They are too bright, but even if you get a lower wattage one, they aren't anything special. But the modding community goes apeshit over them. I think that fascination is retarded.

2. Dolby HX Pro and Dolby B NR

3. VHS HQ technology from the future

4. Yellow LED

5. Green LED

6. White LED

7. Black LED

8. Purple LED

9. Blinking LED

10. "Tint" dial

[TmEE]

1. More palettes (like TGFX16)
2. 4096 colors instead of the not very usable Shadow-Highlite, or even better 15/16bit colors
3. a PCM chip so all games could have had clean sound
4. Working 320x240 on 60Hz machines
5. 3.5MHz Z80 in SMS mode, twice as fast in MD mode
6. White LED
7. RGB+Stereo+Svid on AV out
8. NO RF unit as stock !!!
9. Big sexy 16-bit logo on US and EU machines
10. High quality sound mixing circuits in ALL models

[CMA Death Adder]

In a perfect world:

1). 256 colors on screen
2). Only ONE version of the console for each region (Instead of 500 of them each with minor hardware and / or BIOS differences!)
3). Full Master System backwards compatibility without need for the stupid adaptor
4). YM3812 (OPL2) sound chip instead of YM2612
5). Scaling and rotation via hardware
6). SegaCD never created / released

But primarily just 1) and 2) - 256 colors would've been divine, and having to test code on 8,000 slightly different models of the Genesis and the Megadrive is just a needless pain. Over the years I have become a fan of the YM2612 chip, even if the AdLib (OPL2) will always remain my absolute favorite.

[Alianger]

1. More palettes (like TGFX16)
2. 4096 colors instead of the not very usable Shadow-Highlite, or even better 15/16bit colors
3. a PCM chip so all games could have had clean sound
4. Working 320x240 on 60Hz machines

5. No region lockout.
6. Two more controller ports.
7. Make LD controllers the standard and add shoulder buttons to them.
8. Scaling and rotation.
9. More RPGs.
10. More translations.

[108 Stars]

1. 4098 colours in total
2. 256 on screen
3. better quality controllers
4. no region-lockout
5. 50/60 Hz switch as standard
6. better sound-hardware
7. Master System compatibility without rip-off-adaptor
8. No, or a better CD-add-on
9. 4 controller ports
10.Call it Genesis in all regions

[xbrinkx]

In a perfect world:

4). YM3812 (OPL2) sound chip instead of YM2612.

Why this chip?

[TmEE]

In a perfect world:
1). 256 colors on screen
2). Only ONE version of the console for each region (Instead of 500 of them each with minor hardware and / or BIOS differences!)
3). Full Master System backwards compatibility without need for the stupid adaptor
4). YM3812 (OPL2) sound chip instead of YM2612
5). Scaling and rotation via hardware
6). SegaCD never created / released

But primarily just 1) and 2) - 256 colors would've been divine, and having to test code on 8,000 slightly different models of the Genesis and the Megadrive is just a needless pain. Over the years I have become a fan of the YM2612 chip, even if the AdLib (OPL2) will always remain my absolute favorite.

OPL2 is not as good sounding as OPN2... I have experience with both and OPN2 definately kicks the ass of OPL2/3. With some efforts, you can get 4op OPL3 stuff sound on OPN2. 2op FM is no good compared to 4op and OPL2 couldn't do 4op sound.

What's so different between each model ? I've found all code to be working exaxtly same on all machines... cycle accurate, even same VDP artifacts (i.e when doing midframe palette changes).

Also can you imagine MD having another cartslot ? if MD carts would be same as SMS ones.... I can't imagine how MD would have functioned, definately not in very functional fashion (pretty unexpandable cart pinout of SMS, very Z80 specific).

Scaling and rotation in HW would be nice actually....

and Mega Drive is lot better name than Genesis IMO. Mega Drive, damn it sounds so good :)

[108 Stars]

and Mega Drive is lot better name than Genesis IMO. Mega Drive, damn it sounds so good :)

Mega Drive sounds damn stupid.:mad:
I hate names with senseless words like Super, Mega, Turbo, Ultra and the likes...sounds so childish.

[TmEE]

Sega Mega.... it rhymes so well, and sounds so good

[playgen]

I'm sure...if it wasn't complete, I don't think it would function - but hey, maybe that's just me.
As for the 10 things I would change for the Genesis...
just a larger palette (at least 4096 colors, like the stock Amiga)

The Megadrive effectivley does have the same colour pallete as the original OCS Amiga's. The 4096 colours on screen had to use a hardware trick known as HAM - Hold And Modify, which was only really useable on still images and still had noticeable side effects then.

256 colours on screen at a time would have been a more realistic target.

It really should have had hardware scaling, considering sega released all those arcade ports early on like Galaxy Force 2, Space Harrier 2 etc which suffer from not having it.

Add me as another person who can't see the reason why people go crazy over having a ultra bright Blue LED. Personally I look at the TV when playing not the console, and if I did look I'd like to see a red terminator eye looking back at me! :cool:

As for having no sms adaptor for compatability, I think that would have been a real daft move having a sms cart slot in Japan and US where sms didn't do all that well. Using an adaptor was fine, the fact Sega completely over charged for it is the real complaint. They sold it for around £35, when theres nothing really in it so it could have been £10 easily.

[17daysolderthannes]

1. Blue LED. Only god damn assholes like red LEDs. I hope anyone who likes red LEDs gets cancer in the face. Only cool kidz like blu ledz. blu wud make sistem soo much bettrz lololol. Seriously though, I don't understand the fascination modders have with blue LEDs. They are too bright, but even if you get a lower wattage one, they aren't anything special. But the modding community goes apeshit over them. I think that fascination is retarded.



+1 I don't get that either. Then again I also don't get the ion blue blinkers on cars either. Or for that matter HID lightbulbs on cars. I mean, really, what, are you driving at 200 mph through a pitch black cave?

Revisions I would make to Genesis:
1. Sound chip more like SNES. Sorry, but I never was a fan of the Genesis sound chip, only a handful of games like Midnight Resistance, Captain America, Streets of Rage 2, and a couple Sonic songs were ever worth listening to. On the other hand, listen to TMNT IV: Turtles in Time, Mega Man X, or Sparkster on the SNES, "WOW" is the only word to describe it.

2. A memory card feature. Yeah, its sounds like a "duh" idea now, but back then the technology was there (Sega CD RAM cart anyone?) but they just didn't implement it. I think more games with save features would make the 16 bit era more enjoyable.

3. 4 controller ports...meh, why not have some super NBA JAM arcade action?

4. hardware scaling. Even if the CPU can handle it in software, programmers are always more likely to utilize stuff like that if its easy to implement.

5. A/V outs. Come on, the original NES had it for crying out loud.

6. A reset button that works. I think this was only a problem on model 2s, but it seems everyone I know that has one has a non-working reset button. Not that it really matters, but come on, gimme a break.

7. better marketing of the Sega CD and 32X, and by that I mean sell Sega CD games well below cartridge prices (since they are much cheaper to make) to justify the add on cost and then actually give the 32X a fighting chance before scrapping it (since it actually did well initially). I guess another way to put it would be to make a Neptune CD instead of a Saturn.

thats all I can really say, the Genesis was pretty damn good how it was except for the sound chip.

[17daysolderthannes]

Mega Drive sounds damn stupid.:mad:
I hate names with senseless words like Super, Mega, Turbo, Ultra and the likes...sounds so childish.

agreed, I always preferred Genesis. In fact, Genesis is probably my favorite console name of any system out there. Plus, Mega Drive somehow confuses me with Master System, I guess because they are both 2 word names that start with "M" and I found out about the Master System and the name Mega Drive about the same time. I never liked the name Game Gear either, it sounded like an accessory kit or something, not a game system. Nomad was a much better name, they should've called the Game Gear that and just called the Nomad Genesis P or something.

[Joe Redifer]

OK, my serious list:

1. Graphic hardware exactly like the Neo Geo, only different (more competently constructed/manufactured, non-gigantic cartridge size, hardware rotation, an actual BG layer or two, etc)

2. Sound hardware like the Neo Geo, but with more PCM, FM and PSG channels. At least 10 PCM channels with 16-bit-44.1Khz sampling, 10 FM channels (with SMS-FM compatibility) and 4 PSG channels.

3. 8 megabytes (not bits) of work RAM

4. 2 megabytes of video RAM

5. 1 megabyte of sound RAM

6. Smallest game size = 1 megabyte.

7. Stereo audio out on rear, composite and s-video out on rear. RGB out still available.

8. Channels 3, 4 AND 5 selectable for RF.

9. Sega CD would not need extra hardware since the Genesis had scaling and rotation built in. Just a CD player with some extra RAM. It would have cost very little.

10. 6 button controller from the start with two shoulder buttons instead of one MODE button.

[jetlag]

having the PSG built in the 2612

5 PCM channels with 256kb ram

larger color palette.

12.5 mHz 68k so it makes a better main station for segacd

[playgen]

OK, my serious list:

1. Graphic hardware exactly like the Neo Geo, only different (more competently constructed/manufactured, non-gigantic cartridge size, hardware rotation, an actual BG layer or two, etc)

2. Sound hardware like the Neo Geo, but with more PCM, FM and PSG channels. At least 10 PCM channels with 16-bit-44.1Khz sampling, 10 FM channels (with SMS-FM compatibility) and 4 PSG channels.

3. 8 megabytes (not bits) of work RAM

4. 2 megabytes of video RAM

5. 1 megabyte of sound RAM

6. Smallest game size = 1 megabyte.

7. Stereo audio out on rear, composite and s-video out on rear. RGB out still available.

8. Channels 3, 4 AND 5 selectable for RF.

9. Sega CD would not need extra hardware since the Genesis had scaling and rotation built in. Just a CD player with some extra RAM. It would have cost very little.

10. 6 button controller from the start with two shoulder buttons instead of one MODE button.

8 Meg of main RAM, this sounds more like a super computer than a console for that time! :D

Memory was stupid expensive back then, plus with carts to pull data off theres no need for that much RAM anyway.

[108 Stars]

Joe, the idea was doing a list that might have been realistic for late 1988; had Sega made the hardware like that, the MD would not have survived as long as 1990 on the market.^^

[Joe Redifer]

S-video is not realistic for 1988.

Also, the Neo Geo was supported for a faaaar longer time than the Genesis.

[playgen]

S-video is not realistic for 1988.

Also, the Neo Geo was supported for a faaaar longer time than the Genesis.

But 11 megabytes of RAM is totally unrealistic, the console would have launched at well over $1000. Surely you jest?

The Neo Geo only lasted as long as it did because the same games were sold in arcades. Plus the games were still several hundred £ even at the end, and they only made small numbers of home versions.

Anyway we all know what the Megadrive really needed - Knight Rider lights on the front!

[Zebbe]

S-video is not realistic for 1988.

Also, the Neo Geo was supported for a faaaar longer time than the Genesis.

The last licensed game was released in 2002 in Japan. So they were pretty much equal.

[mick_aka]

Very interesting thread, many fair ideas.

I'm wondering how much more some of these extra components would have cost?

With all these suggestions implemented would any of you (or indeed your parents) have spent say $500 on a console in 1989/90 (that's around $850 in today's money)?

Or could we have even seen some sort of super console retailing for the same sort of money as an amiga?

[Psy]

OK, my serious list:

1. Graphic hardware exactly like the Neo Geo, only different (more competently constructed/manufactured, non-gigantic cartridge size, hardware rotation, an actual BG layer or two, etc)

2. Sound hardware like the Neo Geo, but with more PCM, FM and PSG channels. At least 10 PCM channels with 16-bit-44.1Khz sampling, 10 FM channels (with SMS-FM compatibility) and 4 PSG channels.

3. 8 megabytes (not bits) of work RAM

4. 2 megabytes of video RAM

5. 1 megabyte of sound RAM

6. Smallest game size = 1 megabyte.

7. Stereo audio out on rear, composite and s-video out on rear. RGB out still available.

8. Channels 3, 4 AND 5 selectable for RF.

9. Sega CD would not need extra hardware since the Genesis had scaling and rotation built in. Just a CD player with some extra RAM. It would have cost very little.

10. 6 button controller from the start with two shoulder buttons instead of one MODE button.
Why don't you just say, System 16 arcade board in a console form :)

[Black_Tiger]

1: bump the color specs all round
2: allow sampled sounds to play through any sound channel at once
3: SMS cart play without an adaptor & Start button becomes "Pause"
4: substitute fm instrument sounds for optional fm sound in SMS games
5: fully region free, carts and CDs
6: quality composite, stereo & S-Video out without special cables
7: cheap CD-ROM available or all-in-one system at launch
8: fully compatible (SMS and all) Nomad that can connect to a CD-ROM
9: Game Gear cart playing, even if it rerquires an adaptor
10: full color transpancies of any layer or individual sprites

[tomaitheous]

Since everyone is revising theirs...

(Rev. 1.1)
1) Larger blue LED.
2) A small text LCD that scrolls "bue ledz rule all other color ledz suxors lolz!11!11!!1"

(Realistic list)
1) 4bit palette.
2) Single 12bit DAC with a small amount of ram(something like 512bytes) with a range of playback rates up to 30khz.

Those are simple and realistic upgrades. The sound DAC is very simple and effective, and adding the 4bit(4096) palette support was basically already there. Increase the color palette and the small amount colors on screen doesn't matter so much. Either that, or give sprites its own 4 palettes.

[playgen]

I don't know what sega were thinking, this is much better!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.james21/megadrive7.png

[Psy]

I don't know what sega were thinking, this is much better!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.james21/megadrive7.png

What is with the four 3.5 mm jacks in the front left under the volume control? Are they headphone jacks? Why four? Splitters are easy to acquire if you really want to hook up four headphones to one Genesis.

[megabomberman]

I don't know what sega were thinking, this is much better!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.james21/megadrive7.png

Tmee, can you do this for us!!!????????

[playgen]

What is with the four 3.5 mm jacks in the front left under the volume control? Are they headphone jacks? Why four? Splitters are easy to acquire if you really want to hook up four headphones to one Genesis.

4 head phone jacks for 4 players, if people don't want to buy a seperate sms adaptor they wont want to buy audio splitters either!
They also double up as 4 ports for sms 3-D glasses! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:

[megabomberman]

My goodness this incredible piece of art should be on display in the louvre, would it ever be possible to create this behemoth, I would be willing to fund and estonian lab to the tune of $1,000,000 to create this gorgeous fantasy!

[17daysolderthannes]

I don't know what sega were thinking, this is much better!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.james21/megadrive7.png

actually, yeah, that would have been pretty f'n awesome. Obviously the A/V stuff would go on the back, the 4 headphone slots are a little much, and the blue LED is nonsense, but the cartridge slots, 4 controller ports, 50/60 switch, memory card slot, etc. would've all been great.

[awack]

The only thing i would change is to give the genesis better composite video, i like the differences between the snes, pce and the genesis, well, thats because i have all three.

[Iron Lizard]

Looks like someone had fun with photoshop.

[Gentlegamer]

and Mega Drive is lot better name than Genesis IMO. Mega Drive, damn it sounds so good :)
You have that backwards. Mega Drive sounds incredibly generic. Genesis is much, much better.

[Psy]

4 head phone jacks for 4 players, if people don't want to buy a seperate sms adaptor they wont want to buy audio splitters either!
They also double up as 4 ports for sms 3-D glasses! :cool: :cool: :cool: :cool:
Why not one 6.25mm jack then those with professional headphones can get the most out of them?

[playgen]

Why not one 6.25mm jack then those with professional headphones can get the most out of them?

oh it has those too; they are on the side of the console, just out of sight in the photo :)

[Collision Cat]

It's the Super Ultra Mega Turbo Drive! :p

[CMA Death Adder]

4). YM3812 (OPL2) sound chip instead of YM2612.

Why this chip?

The OPL2 was used for the AdLib sound card on the PC, and later, for the Sound Blaster, to provide FM music. It's my favorite FM chip. I don't think many people would agree with me on this one... so it's more of a personal preference. I could dredge up examples of YM3812 music versus comparable YM2612 music (such as the Dune II soundtrack, for example), but I'm not here to prove anything, just stating opinion.

[Earthworm_Jim_Fan]

Things I'd change:
1. Better sound chip.
2. An all in one Genesis/Sega CD/32X console. NO ADD ONS.
3. Have said console be compadible with the Power Base Converter.

[Joe Redifer]

Actually the majority of these suggestions are cost prohibitive for 1988. A 50/60Hz switch would be useless in the US.

Also, I though the four headphone jacks were for 7.1 surround sound.

[Iron Lizard]

All I wish is that they would have pushed it harder back in the day. Comparing old games to new games shows how much they could do with the Genesis. Imagine if something came out like Earthworm Jim came out for Genesis when the Snes did. I guess sonic did the trick at the time but it would have made the Snes look even lamer then it did. Though I guess they needed some time to pull of all those neat tricks.

[MN12BIRD]

who the $#&* would care if the LED was blue or not in 1988 or whenever MD came out?? Nobody!! Of all the things to change you really care about a blue LED??? Who cares!!! It tells you its ON, red usually indicated POWER and this was common for the times! It won't be soon when EVERYTHING comes with a blue LED and some dildo sees a red one and is like OMG THATS SOOO SICK! and people start modding everything to red LEDs lol!

Color pallet and HW scaling/rotation?? S-video out would be nice but at least a stereo composite cable. Like someone said the original MD had stereo sound in it so why would the even have considered not putting it out the back side??

[Psy]

Like someone said the original MD had stereo sound in it so why would the even have considered not putting it out the back side??
I said that.

I kinda understand with stereo TVs still being somewhat new but I don't think people were that stupid back that getting stereo cables when they had a mono-TV would get them all confused.

[Iron Lizard]

I am not a techy so I will take no offense if I am told I am completely wrong but I have heard that the a/v out and many other pieces came straight from the Master System. The Master System was mono. And yes at the time Rca jacks on the back of the Tv were very rare, hell even when the Saturn and Plasysation came out and the rf was excluded many were offended because few had tvs with composite video on them.

[Smii]

Mega Doraibu! I like the over-the-top Japaneseyness of the name. Genesis just reminds me of Phil bloody Collins.
Also, it's a really boring bit of the Bible*. (Don't ask me why, but I read it recently...)

As for what I'd change:

Sound chip which enables better sampled speech
Eliminate sports games library (apologies if you enjoy these - but I don't, and I feel obliged to keep them nonetheless. Excluding the occasional tennis/basketball game, and perhaps sensible soccer, quite entertaining... pff, point still stands)
A dual language switch to translate all Jp games (realms of fantasy here, but then I could play all those RPGs & stuff...)
Better lightguns. (They all stink in one way or another.) And more games which use them.
More internal MCD ram (or at least, if they'd released the memory-carts in Europe...) Also, games which don't necessitate formatting before you can play them (this doesn't count, but it's been annoying me recently...)
Meh, that's all I think.
*Pronounced "bibbly".

[17daysolderthannes]

Genesis just reminds me of Phil bloody Collins.



A dual language switch to translate all Jp games (realms of fantasy here, but then I could play all those RPGs & stuff...)



You see, the Sega Genesis has an invisible touch, it reaches in and grabs right hold of your heart!

phil collins is f'n boss

anyway, rather than a switch it would be better (and actually feasible) to do what Neo Geo did and make all the game chips the same and pick the language based on the region of the system. With a Neo Geo, if you put a Japanese game in a US system, the text is in english, put it in a Japanese system, its in Japanese. Same goes with the US games. That way, no matter what the original region was, if you put it in a US system it would display english text. This could've very easily be done since many games were identical in Japan and the US, although, usually all the text was english anyway (at least the games I've played). Of course, for games that were not sold in the US, I guess there would've been no reason to include english text.

[Joe Redifer]

make all the game chips the same and pick the language based on the region of the system.
That's exactly what they did. Plug in Gaiares or one of many other games into a Japanese Mega Drive, and all text is in Japanese. Plug the exact same cartridge into a Genesis and the text is in English. Of course some developers chose to use this exact feature as a region lockout.

[j_factor]

Better lightguns. (They all stink in one way or another.) And more games which use them.

What I would change about the light gun situation is the fact that they're all different. I'd have one standard light gun that works for all light gun games.

[sonicwatcher6969]

1. More games
2. Better games
3. Larger color palette, 4096 would have been good
4. More RAM
5. An extra channel or two of PCM audio
6. Stereo sound out of the a/v jack
7. 6-button controller from the start
8. Stayed with plastic boxes for the full lifespan
9. Scaling and rotation (hey, the Lynx had it)
10. 32x doesn't exist

Totally agree 100%, but still...
1. More third party support early on,
2. Mega Net Modem service / Tele-gennesis and mega cd karaoke gone worldwide as planned,
3. Better support for the menacer,
4. With an updated colour pallette it could've had a game gear converter,
5. Blue LED (But you can mod for that),
6. 4 controller ports.
7. Have the sega saturn pad - best controller EVER. PERIOD.
8. Where it says SEGA on the top, have it in blue, not white.
9. MAYBE differant colours would have been a good idea, its really taken off.
10. To be honest - no mega drive 2, original model 1s with the extra back ports and top text left on, so everyone can play the way it was meant to!

[Rusty Venture]

I've decided that, along with everything else said here, the Genesis needs twice the Blast Processing is currently has.

[Iron Lizard]

I think more pudding needs to shoot out of the cartridge slot.

[Psy]

hell even when the Saturn and Plasysation came out and the rf was excluded many were offended because few had tvs with composite video on them.
Yhea but if you didn't have a VCR in 1995 you were way behind the times, most VCRs at the time had RCA input jacks thus even if your TV didn't have RCA jacks you could simply run it through your VCR.

[Iron Lizard]

Yhea but if you didn't have a VCR in 1995 you were way behind the times, most VCRs at the time had RCA input jacks thus even if your TV didn't have RCA jacks you could simply run it through your VCR.

Well DUH. Of course that is what we did. Its all we could do or go out pay the $20 for the rf box which sucked when you where an 14 year old kid with no job. Just another case of companies cheaping out. Composite video was not exactly standard issue at the time.

[Earthworm_Jim_Fan]

I think more pudding needs to shoot out of the cartridge slot.
Nah, defenetly more shrimp.

[CMA Death Adder]

I don't understand the fascination modders have with blue LEDs.

I don't understand why modders care about the LEDs. Personally I never pay any attention to them, so their colors are irrelevant. I know my Genesis is on because I am playing it...

[playgen]

The only time I've ever changed the colour of an LED is when one in a Master System I had broke, and I didn't have another green one in my drawer full of bits so a yellow one had to suffice.

I think people change the LED's simply because its an easy 'mod' to do. I find the blue LED obsession rather ridiculous, I suppose it makes sense for a Sega console given that Sega's logo is blue, sonic is blue etc, but people stick blue LED's in any old console sega or not for some reason. Guess its just a case of following the heard.

[CMA Death Adder]

I find the blue LED obsession rather ridiculous

The LED on my computer speakers is blue, and the damn thing is very annoying distraction. I guess it looks 'cooler' than a red LED would, but at least the red one wouldn't be so bright and blinding.


Guess its just a case of following the heard.

Damned lemmings.

[Black_Tiger]

I don't understand why modders care about the LEDs. Personally I never pay any attention to them, so their colors are irrelevant. I know my Genesis is on because I am playing it...

I like how bright current LEDs get. If I get any more system mods, I'll probably have the LEDs replaced, but with the same color.

[TmEE]

I prefer white LEDs over blue ones. 30000mcd White is soooooo bright

[Joe Redifer]

Screw LEDs. They're for pussies. I just installed a 12K xenon bulb in my Genesis (that's 12,000 watts). That's what they use for IMAX projectors.

[Earthworm_Jim_Fan]

Yes. Nothing like being blinded by a light thats there just to tell you the system is on...

[Rusty Venture]

Screw LEDs. They're for pussies. I just installed a 12K xenon bulb in my Genesis (that's 12,000 watts). That's what they use for IMAX projectors.

Two uses for that (aside from playing Genesis games):

Pretend it is a search light and use to to "search" for night flying German bombers.

Batsignal.

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

LED's are pussy for sure, I quit rockin those long time ago, played out..So my friend has a projector and took his x-box into an abandoned warehouse and projected emulated games like 30 feet tall and they drank beer and played turrican( I sadly didn't make it out). Next time im gonna go with and take the dreamcast and maybe the nomad. We are gonna prime the wall white with some rollers and paint first. This is to me at least what hardcore gaming is really about. Maybe I'll start doing that urban gymnastics parcore shit and just climbing up abandoned buildings all ninja style and then gaming on some crazy next level shit. I think we'll be seeing a lot more of this stuff in the future days to come. I'll get the fad started on youtube and then it will go worldwide. I'll use the dreamcast fishing reel like a nunchuk but my face will be covered with a bandana. If I was real hardcore I would start a thread on here asking the simple question: How hardcore is your gaming? I bet people on here are likecrazy hardcore, Like I got a laseractive..Who the hell actually goes and buys a laseractive, it rediculous. My friends don't know shit about retro gaming collections and their just like Dude your room is nuts!

[Rusty Venture]

Even RegalSinSizzler, one of the worst posters to haunt the internet, used the ENTER key.

[parallaxscroll]

I would have made MegaDrive/Genesis based exactly on Sega's System 16B arcade board from 1986.

i.e.

68000 @ 10 MHz (instead of 7.6 Mhz)
color palette: 32,768 (instead of 512)
max colors on screen: 1596 (instead of 64)
sprites: 128 (instead of 80)
background layers: 2 (like Genesis)
limited hardware scaling & zooming (Genesis had none)
Work RAM: 128K (instead of 64K)
VRAM: 128K (instead of 64K)

All based on 1986 technology.

This would give the Genesis the ability to handle 100% exact carbon-copy arcade-perfect ports of Shinobi, Fantazy Zone, Alien Syndrome, Altered Beast, Golden Axe, ESWAT, Cotton, etc.

Although the Sega Super-Scaler games that use two or three 68000 CPUs and more advanced graphics hardware, would still have to be scaled back for Genesis. Games like Space Harrier, OutRun, AfterBurner II, ThunderBlade, Super Hang-On, Galaxy Force II, etc. but better conversions could've been achieved even with System16B level of power.

[tomaitheous]

I would have made MegaDrive/Genesis based exactly on Sega's System 16B arcade board from 1986.

i.e.

68000 @ 10 MHz (instead of 7.6 Mhz)
color palette: 32,768 (instead of 512)
max colors on screen: 1596 (instead of 64)
sprites: 128 (instead of 80)
background layers: 2 (like Genesis)
limited hardware scaling & zooming (Genesis had none)
Work RAM: 128K (instead of 64K)
VRAM: 128K (instead of 64K)

All based on 1986 technology.

This would give the Genesis the ability to handle 100% exact carbon-copy arcade-perfect ports of Shinobi, Fantazy Zone, Alien Syndrome, Altered Beast, Golden Axe, ESWAT, Cotton, etc.

Although the Sega Super-Scaler games that use two or three 68000 CPUs and more advanced graphics hardware, would still have to be scaled back for Genesis. Games like Space Harrier, OutRun, AfterBurner II, ThunderBlade, Super Hang-On, Galaxy Force II, etc. but better conversions could've been achieved even with System16B level of power.

So...you're saying you didn't want the system to be affordable, right?

[Iron Lizard]

The gmes would also require more ram which would be more expensive.

[Tanegashima]

STOP IT!! JUST STOP IT!! :( My Genesis is just fine, if you people want all those damn fancy high falootin thingys just get a damn xbox or something. Don't change what was great...we have the Sega CD for scaling and rotation and if you don't like it then too bad. The things the Genesis lacks make it cool and if you think I'm nuts then F*** you! You want better sound/color/rotation then get a SNES GOSH!

But seriously...I would like S-Video and I'm strongly considering getting my Genesis I modded..

I suppose we could have done without the 32X...but I love that gold color...

[Rusty Venture]

You just can't handle our jawusumness responces!!!

[parallaxscroll]

So...you're saying you didn't want the system to be affordable, right?

Not true. You misunderstand.

System 16 is already very affordable by 1988. It was made in 1986 as a mid-range arcade board. It's not even state-of-the-art in 1986. Whereas Sega's multi CPU Super-Scaler boards are.

A System16 board is lower-spec than than a Neo-Geo MVS/AES. Since this topic is about what we'd like to have changed about the Genesis, this is what I'd want. A mass produced System16 board. It could still be achieved for $200. The question about cost is really about the size of the ROM cartridges. Instead of 4-8 megabit games, could 16-32 megabit games be affordable in the 1988-1990 timeframe ?

[tomaitheous]

Not true. You misunderstand.

System 16 is already very affordable by 1988. It was made in 1986 as a mid-range arcade board. It's not even state-of-the-art in 1986. Whereas Sega's multi CPU Super-Scaler boards are.

A System16 board is lower-spec than than a Neo-Geo MVS/AES. Since this topic is about what we'd like to have changed about the Genesis, this is what I'd want. A mass produced System16 board. It could still be achieved for $200. The question about cost is really about the size of the ROM cartridges. Instead of 4-8 megabit games, could 16-32 megabit games be affordable in the 1988-1990 timeframe ?

In all honesty, I think if that was the case then Sega *would* have done that. I'm even sure the System16 board cost alone was above $200.

Remove the scaling/rotation, strip down the palette to 4096 colors (because that still fits into the 16bit palette entry and the RGB DAC would be lower cost), keep the ram at 64k and vram at 64k and the CPU at 8mhz (8mhz CPUs were cheaper than the 12mhz and 16mhz options - if you're gonna go with 10mhz might as well make it 12mhz since it would be the same rated chip), give sprites its own 4 palettes, each BG layer has its own 4 palettes, and window has its own 4 palettes - then it would be more reasonable.

[17daysolderthannes]

Well DUH. Of course that is what we did. Its all we could do or go out pay the $20 for the rf box which sucked when you where an 14 year old kid with no job. Just another case of companies cheaping out. Composite video was not exactly standard issue at the time.

but if you think about it, things like that helped MAKE it the standard so we can all enjoy quality picture inputs instead of that POS fuzzy RF crap.

[parallaxscroll]

In all honesty, I think if that was the case then Sega *would* have done that. I'm even sure the System16 board cost alone was above $200.

Remove the scaling/rotation, strip down the palette to 4096 colors (because that still fits into the 16bit palette entry and the RGB DAC would be lower cost), keep the ram at 64k and vram at 64k and the CPU at 8mhz (8mhz CPUs were cheaper than the 12mhz and 16mhz options - if you're gonna go with 10mhz might as well make it 12mhz since it would be the same rated chip), give sprites its own 4 palettes, each BG layer has its own 4 palettes, and window has its own 4 palettes - then it would be more reasonable.


Maybe.

Yet the difference between what you are saying, which is basicly something inbetween the Genesis and the System16, it might've been better just to go with a cost-reduced System16 with the exact same capability/spec, instead of developing a new machine. Look at it this way, the NEO-GEO home cartridge console could be bought for $399 in 1990 with one controller and no game. It was roughly 3x more powerful than System16 (380 sprites vs 128 sprites) and at least 5x Genesis. If SNK could offer such a best of a console at a modestly high price, then Sega could've offered a System16 based console in 1988/1989. It's basicly the same idea that Sony & Namco used with the PS1/ System11, and that Sega themselves later used with the Dreamcast/NAOMI.

I'd go one step further and say that Sega should've made the SegaCD more powerful, instead of low-end scaling & rotation, give it highend stuff like the Y-Board that powered Galaxy Force II, Power Drift and G-Loc. More sprites, backgrounds, effects, etc. This would totally eliminate the need for a 32X. Sega could have two 16-bit formats (Genesis, SegaCD) instead of the 4 Genesis-based formats that Sega had (Genesis, SegaCD, 32X, 32X CD).

The SegaCD is ground for highend 16-bit arcade games and lots of huge and long RPGs with great depth (Phantasy Star V, Lunar 3, Ys IV, etc) instead of FMV games.

The Genesis and SegaCD both get strong support until 1996, then Sega introduces a Saturn capable of strong 3D that's well designed (with the help of Martin Marietta who did most of the work on MODEL 2 or Lockheed Martin who did MODEL 3.

Ah well, nobody is gonna realize that's one direction Sega could've gone in an attempt to keep from failing so badly after the success of Genesis during 1991-1994. It's all water under the bridge.

[Iron Lizard]

Well they could have least shoved svhs or component down our throats. I was never impressed with comosite. Shvs was the first time i went "WOW". It would have been nice if they figured out a way so we wouldn't need to use all these damn av boxes. As much as I hate the old rf box you could have a few and vcr plug in never have to worry about av switch boxes.

[Joe Redifer]

In all honesty, I think if that was the case then Sega *would* have done that.
You are making a bad assumption. Sega wouldn't do that because they were still using that board to make arcade games at the time. They didn't want the home market cutting in to their arcade sales which were extremely important to them, and if a home system could compete with many arcade games on a 1:1 ratio, they'd be screwed, or at least that's what they would think. I don't think the System-16b would need to cost the consumer more than $250 at the time.

Anyway, we're nitpicking. If every time someone posts what they wish the Genesis would have been like someone else comes in sobbing and whining about how that wouldn't be realistic and would cost to much, then there really isn't any point to this thread whatsoever. It is a fantasy thread. Please stop trying to be realistic about it because the Genesis will always be the Genesis no matter what anyone says or wishes.

[tomaitheous]

You are making a bad assumption. Sega wouldn't do that because they were still using that board to make arcade games at the time. They didn't want the home market cutting in to their arcade sales which were extremely important to them, and if a home system could compete with many arcade games on a 1:1 ratio, they'd be screwed, or at least that's what they would think. I don't think the System-16b would need to cost the consumer more than $250 at the time.

That's possible, but then again the designer of the Megadrive (whatever his name was) in an interview stated that he wanted the system to replicate what was in their arcade line for the home console as much as possible. But we outsiders will never know the real truth of what they were planning or what foresight they had. Anyway, those additional specs sound cheap and easy on paper now a days, but there's a lot of hidden cost not to mention this was in 1987(released in 88) in relation to parts/prices/custom design/fabrication. It'd be nice if someone could find out the build cost of the system16b for 1988. I really expect it would be more than $250 just in cost, considering the relative comparison of similar hardware for that year.

[Joe Redifer]

in an interview stated that he wanted the system to replicate what was in their arcade line for the home console as much as possible.
I'm sure he did. I'm also sure he was restricted to what management told him to do... PC Engine had 512 colors, no need to go beyond that as it looks pretty, etc etc etc. And he probably had to do all that with what Sega management told him to use. I don't think they were selling the console for a loss at the start. Anyway, they considered the arcade and home markets as competition back then, and they were players in both fields.

[Zebbe]

There is no need to change the MD HW specs: they are good as they are. Here are my stupid wishes:

1. 8-button controller at launch (two shoulder buttons).
2. Same name, Mega Drive, in all regions.
3. Only black grid design or blue bubbles design on boxes.. not both!
4. No 32X - longer support with HW pushing titles for MD instead.
5. Regionfree.
6. 320x240 gameplay resolution @ 60 Hz on all units.
7. No baseball, basketball, football, wrestling or golf games.

That is all I can think of... The MD is too good, I can't come up with 10 things to change about it.

[17daysolderthannes]

Anyway, they considered the arcade and home markets as competition back then, and they were players in both fields.

that's true, Dreamcast and onward basically killed off arcades forever. Whats the point of going to an arcade when you can play the exact same thing at home? Granted arcades will always offer that extra interface like steering wheel setups or special controllers like the skateboard of Top Skater, but as far as graphics go, theres little reason to go to an arcade anymore. Kind of sad too, arcades used to really be a special treat to see games in their most uncompromised form.

[parallaxscroll]

You are making a bad assumption. Sega wouldn't do that because they were still using that board to make arcade games at the time. They didn't want the home market cutting in to their arcade sales which were extremely important to them, and if a home system could compete with many arcade games on a 1:1 ratio, they'd be screwed, or at least that's what they would think. I don't think the System-16b would need to cost the consumer more than $250 at the time.

Anyway, we're nitpicking. If every time someone posts what they wish the Genesis would have been like someone else comes in sobbing and whining about how that wouldn't be realistic and would cost to much, then there really isn't any point to this thread whatsoever. It is a fantasy thread. Please stop trying to be realistic about it because the Genesis will always be the Genesis no matter what anyone says or wishes.

Good post, I agree.

[TmEE]

6. 320x240 gameplay resolution @ 60 Hz on all units.

I think I've figured out why there 320x240 doesn't work in 60Hz. Its the native res of 60Hz to say so and that would leave no fast DMA room which can result in pretty poor gameplay in action games, so they did 224 to have 16 lines worth of some fast DMA time. In 50Hz you have LOT more DMA time, it doesn't matter if its 240 or 224, its still way more than in 60Hz (thus all VDP intensive games (3D) run better in 50Hz)

[Joe Redifer]

320x240 works fine in 60Hz, it's just that the Genesis wasn't designed for that resolution. It was designed to leave all overscan blank to cheat and steal some processing time. Even 320 pixels wide leaves a border on both sides. For the Genesis not to have any borders in NTSC, it'd have to be 360x240.

[acdc]

nothing

cause tido or tmee modded it for me
and i got a bleu light it match my eyes perfectly

stereo sound
60 hertz switch
jap switches
bleu led

can play yu yu hakusho without using the game genie

everything i wisht for

thanks again tido

[TmEE]

320x240 works fine in 60Hz, it's just that the Genesis wasn't designed for that resolution. It was designed to leave all overscan blank to cheat and steal some processing time. Even 320 pixels wide leaves a border on both sides. For the Genesis not to have any borders in NTSC, it'd have to be 360x240.

The real width is about 360, but horizontal extra means nearly nothing, and that extra is so short compared to real line of nothingness.


Thanks for the words ACDC :) I feel soooo good :D

[Joe Redifer]

but horizontal extra means nearly nothing
Same with the vertical extra, hence the 224 spec.

[Christuserloeser]

Totally agree 100%, but still...
7. Have the sega saturn pad - best controller EVER. PERIOD.



http://www.axess.com/twilight/console/detail/saturn.jpg

[Grounder]

1. 4098 colours in total
2. 256 on screen
3. better quality controllers
4. no region-lockout
5. 50/60 Hz switch as standard
6. better sound-hardware
7. Master System compatibility without rip-off-adaptor
8. No, or a better CD-add-on
9. 4 controller ports
10.Call it Genesis in all regions
Same reasons.

[AMAZINGJECKLBOY]

Blue LED instead of a red one


thinking about it this wouldnt be too hard to pull off
in fact i think i might do this once i get a bit better with electronics

thanks for a kickass inspiring idea

[Mordan]

1) small memory to record highscores
2) multi-tap support from the start for up to 16 players
3) 50/60 switch, no regions
4) more good 32X games,
5) more good mega CD games.
6) less Street Fighter and Virtua Fighter arrogance.
7) sturdier clips for manual and cart. The best case are the later cases.
8) earphone jack on model 2
9) color coded art covers
10) continued support

[dragonboy]

What's all this about 60hz/50hz? Weren't NTSC and PAL TV's permanately set on those framerates until HDTVs came out?

[Mordan]

never tried it for the lack of it.
but people in France played PAL Sonic 1 in 60 with a switched PAL MD

[TmEE]

99% of European TVs support both 50 and 60... not so sure about 60Hz region TVs....

[Rusty Venture]

Regular US TV's only do 60hz. I'm sure there were/are specialty TV's that would do both.

[j_factor]

never tried it for the lack of it.
but people in France played PAL Sonic 1 in 60 with a switched PAL MD

People in France had SECAM...

[A Black Falcon]

These have been mentioned, but are my choices...

1. More colors on screen at once -- at least 256. Pair this with a somewhat larger color palette.
2. Ship the system with the 6-button controller originally, not the 3-button controller.
3. Scaling and rotation chips
4. No adapter needed for SMS compatibility (or include it in the box -- this might be the better solution, and would work reasonably well)
5. No 32X; instead merge the Saturn and 32X projects (and rework history to get rid of Sega's massive infighting problems that helped cripple the company) to form one console better than either of them. The Sega CD would still have been released of course. The idea to put even better scaling chips in the SCD is perhaps a good one, depending on price (versus the ones that were included in the 1992 system)
6. Only one multitap standard, not two different mutually incompatible ones.
7. Only one lightgun, not two (or three?) different mutually incompatible ones. Or at least have one standard so all lightgun games work with all guns.
8. Better sound chip -- SNES sound is so much better... maybe two years earlier they couldn't have matched it, but they could have done better than they did.
9. No region locking (though 50hz only games would still be unplayable on NTSC TVs -- US TVs do NOT support 50hz.)
10. Four controller ports (the N64 didn't invent it, the Atari 5200 had had four... it would have been great to see a 16-bit system with four controller ports built in.)

I won't ask for memory cards or shoulder buttons because neither of those things existed yet in 1989, really, and asking Sega to invent them both is probably asking too much.

Some things that have been mentioned that would be bad ideas:
-50/60hz switch in US models -- would be completely useless for essentially all TVs sold here. It would be nice for European systems though, of course.
-get rid of RF out -- very few people had composite support in their TVs or VCRs in 1989. Getting rid of RF out, or including anything other than an RFU in the box, would be incredibly stupid. Maybe just make the stereo AV cables easier to find, and include them with the system instead of an RFU by the early '90s, like the SNES... but not initially.

[Zebbe]

8. Better sound chip -- SNES sound is so much better... maybe two years earlier they couldn't have matched it, but they could have done better than they did.

Please give examples of soundchips to use instead.

[TmEE]

4. No adapter needed for SMS compatibility (or include it in the box -- this might be the better solution, and would work reasonably well)

I can't really imagine MD with 2 cartslots... it would look rather ugly... and using same cartslot for both carts is impossible (possible, but with MD side SEVERALY limited, so say goodbye to arcade ports).


YM2612 is one awesome chip... what is really required is better sound tools.
GEMS should have never been used in so many games... Every SNES lover can list all GEMS games and say MD sounds poor but none of the GOOD sounding games, and when you let them listen these good games they refuse to admit that the game sounds good (or better than average SNES game).
I would have loved to have a FM chip with 8 ch of sound and 6 operators per channel, but its too much to ask...

[nissling]

Nothing, it's already perfect. And I mean Model 1.

[The Sports Guy]

I would have changed the whole Badass marketing scheme. I think it was really boring after like six months. I would have released the neptune instead of the 32X, and I would drastically lower the price.

Would it have worked? Probably not. But I would have liked it.

[Christuserloeser]

1. Thou shalt not release a 32x.
2. Thou shalt not rip-off customers with FMV games.
3. Thou shalt not fool Western developers into using the GEMS engine.
4. Thou shalt not produce Sonic games without Sonic Team.
5. Thou shalt not replace decent sound mixing circuits with cheaper and cheaper ones in later revisions.
6. Thou shalt not change the original boxart of a game for whatever reason.
7. Thou shalt not ever change the box template you started with.
8. Thou shalt not switch to cartboard boxes.
9. Thou shalt not forget to double-check the quality of your controllers.
10. Thou shalt not forget your Japanese roots.

[TmEE]

Correction : Thou shall release a 32X with hardware playfields, scaling, rotation and transparencies.

[Take That Punk!]

A larger color palette would be a good start, helping a current game hacker like myself. Also releasing some "master codes" for certain sports games would be nice (I'm talking to you Mr. Obernolte).

[17daysolderthannes]

9. Thou shalt not forget to double-check the quality of your controllers.


?

you've had problems with 1st party Genesis controllers? I've never had any problems a little rubbing alcohol on the PCB didn't solve...

Now, as for 3rd party, if you see a "high frequency" brand controller, might as well just dump it in the trash, no need to even test that garbage.

[dragonboy]

Correction : Thou shall release a 32X with hardware playfields, scaling, rotation and transparencies.

QFT!

[j_factor]

The Genesis itself could have had hardware scaling. I mean, the Lynx has it, so I don't see why Genesis couldn't. The Lynx also has a pallette of 4,096 colors. Lynx came out at around the same time as the Genesis and at the same MSRP, but it's a handheld. In conclusion, Lynx is the best system ever.

[Mel]

OK, my serious list:

1. Graphic hardware exactly like the Neo Geo, only different (more competently constructed/manufactured, non-gigantic cartridge size, hardware rotation, an actual BG layer or two, etc)

2. Sound hardware like the Neo Geo, but with more PCM, FM and PSG channels. At least 10 PCM channels with 16-bit-44.1Khz sampling, 10 FM channels (with SMS-FM compatibility) and 4 PSG channels.

3. 8 megabytes (not bits) of work RAM

4. 2 megabytes of video RAM

5. 1 megabyte of sound RAM

6. Smallest game size = 1 megabyte.

7. Stereo audio out on rear, composite and s-video out on rear. RGB out still available.

8. Channels 3, 4 AND 5 selectable for RF.

9. Sega CD would not need extra hardware since the Genesis had scaling and rotation built in. Just a CD player with some extra RAM. It would have cost very little.

10. 6 button controller from the start with two shoulder buttons instead of one MODE button.

This would've made it more expensive than the pc's of that Era.

Blue LED's were also very expensive in that era, they didn't get cheap till the 90's i believe.

My only complaint about the genesis is the cheap boxes later ini ts life. the clam shells were better.

edit:
and those giant ac adapters suck.

[TmEE]

Blue LEDs got cheap like 3...5 years ago

[dragonboy]

OK, my serious list:

1. Graphic hardware exactly like the Neo Geo, only different (more competently constructed/manufactured, non-gigantic cartridge size, hardware rotation, an actual BG layer or two, etc)

2. Sound hardware like the Neo Geo, but with more PCM, FM and PSG channels. At least 10 PCM channels with 16-bit-44.1Khz sampling, 10 FM channels (with SMS-FM compatibility) and 4 PSG channels.

3. 8 megabytes (not bits) of work RAM

4. 2 megabytes of video RAM

5. 1 megabyte of sound RAM

6. Smallest game size = 1 megabyte.

7. Stereo audio out on rear, composite and s-video out on rear. RGB out still available.

8. Channels 3, 4 AND 5 selectable for RF.

9. Sega CD would not need extra hardware since the Genesis had scaling and rotation built in. Just a CD player with some extra RAM. It would have cost very little.

10. 6 button controller from the start with two shoulder buttons instead of one MODE button.

and a 20 Mhz 68000 and two 8 Mhz z80s, right?

[Ace]

The 10 things I'd change about the Genesis would be:

1) The 32X, with a cable that links its power input to that of the Genesis(it's possible to power the Genesis and 32X with a single Genesis power supply)

2) Mode 7 hardware

3) BETTER SOUND PROCESSOR. When you compare the YM2612 to the Super NES' ADPCM sound processor, or even the PSG processor of the TurboGrafx, the Genesis usually has pretty crappy sound. Not to mention that speech, most of the time, is impossible/very hard to understand(on that note, what does that guy say when you begin a game in Thunder Force II besides "Good luck"?)

4) A faster Motorola 68000. The system was being marketed with "Blast Processing" in mind, so it would have made sense to have the 68000 run at 10MHz instead of 7.6MHz, which would eliminate all slowdown

5) S-Video output from the get-go

6) Better-quality Model 2s, without the crappy audio mixing circuit and Samsung KA2195D video encoder

7) FULLY COMPATIBLE GENESIS 3! What the hell would it have taken Majesco to wire up the Genesis 3 in a way that it works with all addons minus the Sega CD? This resulted in my Genesis 3 dying as I was rewiring it but then caused a massive problem

8) Supply A/V cables from the get-go. Seriously, ALL Genesis units sold in North America came with an RF unit until the Genesis 3 came out. That's BS.

9) Have Stereo on the Model 1 Genesis both from the headphone jack AND the 8-pin DIN.

10) KEEP CARTRIDGES IN PLASTIC CASES.

[Zebbe]

S-Video was made the same year, so it was a little hard for them to include it in the console, perhaps.

[Christuserloeser]

3) BETTER SOUND PROCESSOR. When you compare the YM2612 to the Super NES' ADPCM sound processor, or even the PSG processor of the TurboGrafx, the Genesis usually has pretty crappy sound. Not to mention that speech, most of the time, is impossible/very hard to understand(on that note, what does that guy say when you begin a game in Thunder Force II besides "Good luck"?)

That's obviously a matter of taste. I think that many SNES games mostly sound incredibly boring and cheap, while the YM2612 can sound a lot more interesting if it's used properly. Problem is that most MD/G games (exactly 99,9% of all games developed outside of Japan) use the GEMS sound engine - and that's what really ruins it.

http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index.php/Mega_Drive/Genesis_Sound_Engine_List

For any of those games on the list using GEMS, the SNES' APU wipes the floor with the YM2612 indeed, but for the rest...

Another problem with the MD/G sound is the degrading quality of the mixer they've used in later hardware revisions. Makes it sound extremely dry, lacking any depths, as it cuts off all higher frequencies and adds a lot of distortion and noise to the lower and mid frequency spectrum.


The problem with speech in TF2 seems to be a specific problem that the Tecnosoft guys had, as all their games have crappy PCM. Over many years and after dozens of games they've released this didn't improve the slightest bit, yet other publishers made good use of the PCM channel - see Streets of Rage 2, Pulseman or even James Pond 3 for the most prominent examples.

[dragonboy]

I wish both SNES and Genesis had different sound chips. Sega Genesis was annoying most of the time, and SNES was graphic-whorey most of the time.

If they both had sound chips like (5 PCM, 3 square, 1 triangle, 1 noise) they wouldn't have sound annoying nor graphic-whorey.

[j_factor]

I think the Genesis sound chip would have been perfect with two PCM channels added, and having two (instead of one) FM channels convertible to PCM. Then it would've been a powerhouse.

[TmEE]

there's no trick in simulating two on one channel, but the problem is the really fantastic bank switching mechanism that is so ridiculously slow... bit by bit... ugh... if there isn't that, I could do 4 channels with minimal effort.

[dragonboy]

there's no trick in simulating two on one channel, but the problem is the really fantastic bank switching mechanism that is so ridiculously slow... bit by bit... ugh... if there isn't that, I could do 4 channels with minimal effort.

What bank switching mechanism that you are talking about?:confused:

[TmEE]

The one you have on Z80 side, that controls the Z80's window to the outer world...

[dragonboy]

Does it slowdown the 68000 too, because it is on the same bus?

[TmEE]

68000 experiences very little slowdown... and the buses are different, 2 really different CPUs would not be happy on a same bus :P and it would not be too wise either, more like a waste of CPUs.

[tomaitheous]

Does it slowdown the 68000 too, because it is on the same bus?

IIRC, priority is VDP>68k>z80. Assuming all are accessing the main address bus (z80 ram is separate). VDP local-to-vram DMA halts the 68k and will halt the z80 if it accesses any mapped rom from the 68k's bus. Excluding VDMA, there are also some other instances where the 68k can cause pauses to the z80 if the z80 is executing/reading/writing of mapped rom. TmEE probably knows the specifics offhand since he did extensive work on his z80 PCM 'super tweaked' driver ;)

[Dirt Ball Gamer]

I noticed when I was playing road rash 2 that when you go to the map select screen the bgm will pause for one second when you switch between the tracks. Is this an example of the z80 pausing?

[nathanallan]

What are 10 Things You Would Like to Change about the Genesis?
I don't know about ten things, but I would have wanted expandable memory. Not memory that came equipped, but generic slots to put in generic memory later if I should so choose. Costs for an empty slot would have been minimal.

[TmEE]

I don't think there was any ready made SRAM modules at the time... only place where SRAMs were used are PCs and they were usually not on a separate board...
64K of main RAM is pretty sufficient in a cart based system such as MD, ROM is where all your data is... I have not yet used a full Kilobyte of RAM in my MD stuff yet...


IIRC, priority is VDP>68k>z80. Assuming all are accessing the main address bus (z80 ram is separate). VDP local-to-vram DMA halts the 68k and will halt the z80 if it accesses any mapped rom from the 68k's bus. Excluding VDMA, there are also some other instances where the 68k can cause pauses to the z80 if the z80 is executing/reading/writing of mapped rom. TmEE probably knows the specifics offhand since he did extensive work on his z80 PCM 'super tweaked' driver ;)

During DMA, everything that tries to access 68K bus will get halted, after DMA is done the access is granted again. Z80 seems to work in cycle steal mode, Z80 accessing ROM has effect on 68K performance (5% maybe)... 68K has the priority, but if Z80 is already reading, 68K is halted until Z80 is done.

[Aqua Hedgehog]

1) Glossed Shell
2) Model 2 cable
3) Volume could go higher than "10"
4) Blue LED
5) More colors
6) Altered Beast was just like the Arcade version
7) 6-button controller on initial release - better than those clunky 3-button pads
8) OPL2 synth
9) Called Genesis in all regions
10) No region lockout

[TmEE]

OPL2 D:
Genesis in all regions D:

MD and OPN2 FTW !!!

[tomaitheous]

Haha, yeah ADLIB ftw!

Seriously, OPL2? Maybe you meant OPL3? I'd take the YM2151 personally ;)

[TmEE]

OPN and OPM families are much better choices... YM2612 is a stripped down YM2151 ?

[Christuserloeser]

I doubt the YM2151 had the SN76489 built-in and I think that's what makes the 2612 the much better chip. :)

[TmEE]

I don't quite know what the YM2151 has, but one chip had a ADPCM sampler in it, and SSG which is better than the regular PSG.

[Christuserloeser]

Doesn't the 2612 have SSG too (SSG-EG) ?

[KillerBean2]

Why change the MegaDrive? It's perfect as it is!!! :D

And just to end all the talk about blue LEDs:

Blue LEDs were not made widely available until the late 1990s, so that's not even an option ;)

[tomaitheous]

I doubt the YM2151 had the SN76489 built-in and I think that's what makes the 2612 the much better chip. :)

Neither does the 2612. The SN76489 is built into the VDP (of all things).

The 2151 has 8 channels and more algo's configurations (mostly on feedback options IIRC). It also has waveforms other than sinewave, unlike the 2612.


Doesn't the 2612 have SSG too (SSG-EG)

It's not full SSG support from what I remember. More like it was left over components in the 2612's cut down build.

[TmEE]

SSG-EG seems to be fully functional in YM2612, but might not behave like real SSG-EG would in some situations (the unknown bug). SSG-EG works, its a lie it doesn't work. The reason its not used in most things is that Sega didn't tell developers anything about it.
SSG and SSG-EG are 2 completely different things. SSG is a PSG in the chip, SSG-EG is SSG style FM waveform shaper to say so.

[Bablefish]

I think I will be a little different, there is only one thing I would change and that is A faster CPU, and maybe larger on board memory.

[daiikkon]

moar blast-processing.

[parallaxscroll]

1) Glossed Shell
2) Model 2 cable
3) Volume could go higher than "10"
4) Blue LED
5) More colors
6) Altered Beast was just like the Arcade version
7) 6-button controller on initial release - better than those clunky 3-button pads
8) OPL2 synth
9) Called Genesis in all regions
10) No region lockout



Man, I WISH your #6 had been true in 1989. After I had read about Genesis in the July & August issues of EGM, VG&CE and Game Players magazines, I went to Toys 'R' US to see the thing in person. Within seconds of seeing Altered Beast in motion, I knew everything was "just not right". I was 14 and didn't know a thing about hardware but I could see the difference with my eyes. And even though it was a huge step up from the SMS version which I already owned, it was obvious it wasn't as good as the arcade. I wouldn't be getting my own Genesis until spring 1990 and I loved it when I got it, but i liked arcade Altered Beast so much more. So, years later, in 1997, I got my own AB machine.

Genesis is still my favorite system, because of Herzog Zwei, but damn, I wish Genesis had been a System 16b board shrunk into a console, and still $189. I believe It could've been done since that board was already designed to be a mainstream board in 1986 (it didn't have high-end Super-Scaler tech) and by 1989 it could've been remade as a consumer console with a smaller motherboard. The glory that would've been. It would've held its own against the SNES. Every classic Genesis game made would've ended up more pristine in color & sound. CPS1 & NEO-GEO games could've been translated better (not perfect but better) to a System16-based Genesis. And to top it all off, Sega would've made a console-friendly Altered Beast 2 with larger levels explore through (ala Shadow Of The Beast) even better artwork (like Magician Lord) to and shitloads of bosses to conquer.

Ahhh it doesn't matter now but when I think of how Genesis could've been better, that's the kinda' things I think of ^_^

[Zebbe]

It could have been done, but Sega weren't Microsoft with the Xboxes or Sony with the PS3 - meaning they couldn't have risked losing money on the consoles just to try increasing market share. The Mega Drive made a big milestone by ending the long 8-bit era, and showing the key of processing power for video game development. That was a big achievement enough for me.

By the way, how could you have been 14 1989 if you are 28 now? You should be in your 30s now then... :P.

[parallaxscroll]

It could have been done, but Sega weren't Microsoft with the Xboxes or Sony with the PS3 - meaning they couldn't have risked losing money on the consoles just to try increasing market share. The Mega Drive made a big milestone by ending the long 8-bit era, and showing the key of processing power for video game development. That was a big achievement enough for me.

I'd say Sega could've done it. The Saturn was launched in Japan in 1994 and May 1995 in the U.S. and it had a complex motherboard, and daughter boards with many chips. I'm sure Sega could've made a simpler System 16 for home use. Anyway, Sega still impressed most people, even me, with what Genesis was. I was more impressed with its audio capabilities which was more arcade-like then its graphics IMO. FM Synth and stereo. Music actually sounded like music compared to 7800, NES, SMS.



By the way, how could you have been 14 1989 if you are 28 now? You should be in your 30s now then... :P.



I was thinking of another memory, the time I got to see Altered Beast on Genesis & the arcade machine & a NEO-GEO in the same room together in the mid 90s, before I got my own Altered Beast machine. I also subtracted wrong, duh, there's no way I could've been 14 the first time I saw Altered Beast on Genesis, at launch, Sept 1989, I was 9 and 1/2.

[tomaitheous]

The Mega Drive made a big milestone by ending the long 8-bit era, and showing the key of processing power for video game development.

I take issue with that statement..

[j_factor]

Yeah, everybody knows the PC Engine ended the long 8-bit era.

[Zebbe]

I'd say Sega could've done it. The Saturn was launched in Japan in 1994 and May 1995 in the U.S. and it had a complex motherboard, and daughter boards with many chips. I'm sure Sega could've made a simpler System 16 for home use. Anyway, Sega still impressed most people, even me, with what Genesis was. I was more impressed with its audio capabilities which was more arcade-like then its graphics IMO. FM Synth and stereo. Music actually sounded like music compared to 7800, NES, SMS.

Third party developers fled to the PlayStation because the Saturn was so hard to develop for... A System 16 for the homes would also have had more expensive games, a key factor for customers. I agree that the Mega Drive sound more arcade that it looks.

[tomaitheous]

Yeah, everybody knows the PC Engine ended the long 8-bit era.

Actually, I was referring to the Amiga :o (We all know it's really a console)

[parallaxscroll]

Third party developers fled to the PlayStation because the Saturn was so hard to develop for... A System 16 for the homes would also have had more expensive games, a key factor for customers. I agree that the Mega Drive sound more arcade that it looks.



Well I agree developers fled to PS2 because Saturn was so hard to develop for. I'm just saying that Sega really did launch the Saturn with a complex architecture with many chips -- even Next Generation magazine noted that the complex Saturn motherboard was something that would be expected for arcade use, not home use.

One could also argue that the SegaCD with its additional 68000 CPU, scaling & rotation ASIC, was expensive. Perhaps Sega could've packed in the equivalent of SuperScaler X Board (AfterBurner II) or Y Board (Galaxy Force) into SegaCD. Then never released the 32X. The Saturn would then be a huge leap beyond a SuperScaler-based SegaCD, being equipped to handle textured- 3D polygons from the start in late 1995 (better than PS1 or N64) with the help of Sega's arcade hardware partner, Lockheed Martin. That's what some of the SoJ management wanted to do anyway, but they were overruled and the Saturn as it was launched in late 94.

[j_factor]

Actually, I was referring to the Amiga :o (We all know it's really a console)

In that case the credit really belongs to Atari ST.

[acdc]

i think i m gonna paint my megadrive model 2 that have been modded
think white it has a bleu light mmh yeah and then with a black marker make a art drawning white some video game figures from sega on it first 1 alex the kidd

good idea or not

and do i use paint or spraycan

[Psy]

Third party developers fled to the PlayStation because the Saturn was so hard to develop for... A System 16 for the homes would also have had more expensive games, a key factor for customers. I agree that the Mega Drive sound more arcade that it looks.
I think it would mostly just make a more expensive system. The SNES didn't have more expensive games due to its 2D acceleration (it had more expensive games due to on cart processors)

[tomaitheous]

In that case the credit really belongs to Atari ST.

I thought the 'ST came out after the Amiga?

[j_factor]

I thought the 'ST came out after the Amiga?

The two came out in the same month, July 1985. Technically the ST came out earlier, but it's by like one week. More importantly though, at first, the ST was more popular than the Amiga. The Amiga didn't really catch on until they released the A500, in '87. So I would give the 16-bit award to the ST. Technically the Macintosh came out a year earlier, but the Mac was very expensive, had very few games, and was, at the time, positioned as more of a business machine.

[MrMatthews]

i think i m gonna paint my megadrive model 2 that have been modded
think white it has a bleu light mmh yeah and then with a black marker make a art drawning white some video game figures from sega on it first 1 alex the kidd

good idea or not

and do i use paint or spraycan
Are you a decent artist? If so, do it and post some pics!

[Tanegashima]

I cannot think of 1 thing let alone 10 things I would change about the Genesis. Except maybe it should have had the SEGA logo in shiny blue somewhere very conspicuously on the console.


Other than that, it's perfect!

If it wasn't perfect, I wouldn't have been playing it since I was 3...there are plenty of alternatives out there, and I steer clear because my good old Genesis is kick ass!

I need to write a song, kinda like that Tattered Old Flag song Johnny Cash...uh spoke...

[MrMatthews]

jackass. The Genesis has all that stuff already!

[johnnyb]

Unless it can be changed to spit out strippers and beer with the press of the reset button there is nothing that needs to be changed!:love:

[Rusty Venture]

I want mine to dispense $100 bills whenever I turn it on.

[saxman]

I'd say it needed improvement in the sound department. How about a second YM2612? That would double up on the FM voices.

Some of the other suggestions in this topic, with all due respect, I wouldn't be making because it's unfair. Hind-sight is always 20-20. I'm looking at this more from a perspective of what things looked like in 1988. Something like a 6 button controller -- I don't think anyone pictured a controller with that many buttons being necessary at that point in time.

[Take That Punk!]

Sice we are heading down this road..I wish mine would give a nice bj every now and again.

[johnnyb]

.... $100 bills in the cleavage of strippers carrying boxes of beer!:D

[MrMatthews]

Uh, everyone knows there was a spammer porn post in between my last post and Tanegashima's, right?

[johnnyb]

Uh, everyone knows there was a spammer porn post in between my last post and Tanegashima's, right?

lol.... yea I couldn`t quite figure out what you were on!

[MrMatthews]

LOL

Yeah, it was a big long post offering gay father/son porn and naked chicks puking on each other and that kind of thing.

I guess Joe deleted it too quick!

[Take That Punk!]

LOL

Yeah, it was a big long post offering gay father/son porn and naked chicks puking on each other and that kind of thing.

I guess Joe deleted it too quick!

I'm glad I missed it.

[crazyteknohed]

In that case the credit really belongs to Atari ST.

Really? I'm sure the Intellivision came before either the ST or Amiga. Still, I could be wrong ;)

[nomad83]

1.backwards compatibility with master system
2.two more controller slots
3.light blue led
4.read games from any region
5.better sound quality
6.call it mega drive in all regions
7.every controller is a 6 button controller
8.better boxes for cartridge storage
9.Better/No sega cd or 32x
10.More games

[bohokii]

I'd give it the same pallet as the TG-16
S-video hook up standard.
Blue LED instead of a red one

Thats about it really.

a blue led in 1988 cost like $20

sometime around 1994 blue leds came down to like $8 each

[Christuserloeser]

1.backwards compatibility with master system

It is fully compatible with the Master System. You can feed it with SMS games via a) the Power Base Converter, PBC 2 and clones; and b) via the NeoMyth 3-in-1 flash cart.



4.read games from any region

It does read games from all regions produced up until 1993 (when they introduced the region lock), and a good number of games produced after that date.

PAL/US games work without physical changes, Japanese/Chinese/Korean games work after removing that small plastic nose on either side of the machine's cartridge slot.



5.better sound quality

A High Definiton Graphics model 1 outputs at 53khz or higher (the exact rate is yet to be determined). That's better than anyone could expect from a console released in 1988.

If some Mega Drive / Genesis games sound bad, I would complain to the games' publishers, and not blame the hardware.



8.better boxes for cartridge storage

The boxes are excellent, I just wish they'd have stuck with one type and one theme (like in Japan).



9.Better/No sega cd or 32x

The Sega CD was (and still is) excellent. It almost doubled the Mega Drive's power and it allowed bigger games with a CD soundtrack (see 5.)

- It's really just the FMV crap produced by Sega of America that give it a bad rep.

I agree in regards to the 32X though. Everyone and their mum could see right through it and knew what was coming - except Sega(of America)'s management.



10.More games

Well, I wouldn't have a problem with more good games. :p

Seriously, if you keep your eyes open, there's plenty of great games available that no one talks about - and some that everyone keeps mentioning yet people still stick to Aladdin, Mickey Mania and Earthworm Jim as if those were the only games released for the platform. :o

[wavelX]

17 Bit CPU

[kool kitty89]

- It's really just the FMV crap produced by Sega of America that give it a bad rep.

And exactly how many FMV games were actually produced by SoA? I can think of a couple that were published, but only maybe 1 or 2 produced by Sega. (like Jurassic Park, but that wasn't even that much of an FMV game depending on the broadness of one's definition -make it broad enough and you include awsome games like Silpheed and NovaStorm)


As for changes, I kind of like the 4-bit per RGB palette idea, an OPL2 would be a downgrade, but a YM2151 perhaps (plus a single ADPCM channel or DAC like tomaitheous suggested), or a YM2608? (either would probably be more expensive than just the 2612 though)

How about putting video mixing capabilities on the cart and/or expansion port, and connecting the VDP color bus to one or both as well? (which would facilitate a video upgrade for Sega CD or onboard carts without mixing cable)

What if, instead of the Sega CD, they'd taken that hardware, dumped the CD drive, gone for a color upgrade instead in a 32x-like arrangement, and focused on using it as a general cart-based hardware upgrade instead? (it's got a nice sound chip, the graphics ASIC, additional RAM -more than in the 32x, additional CPU, and in this case an added -simple- VDP to be coupled with the ASIC) Maybe add a decompression chip to allow more effective capacity of carts. (and decompress data on the fly) Would have been way, way cheaper than the Sega CD (a huge portion of cost came from the CD drive) and would have been a useful add-on, expanding it a good bit above SNES standards in pretty much every aspect (and keeping the advantages already there other than overall cost), also facilitate ports of games that weren't practical on the Genesis as it was. (like Wolfenstein 3D or Wing Commander -the latter did come out on the CD)
Plus, pretty much all of the non-FMV relying Sega CD games could still be present (like Sonic CD and Soul Star, but unfortunately not games like Silpheed or NovaStorm, at least not in their current form a different remake of Silpheed maybe), and with the added sound hardware there should still be some gread music w/out CD-DA. (Silpheed's music for example is all hardware generated, like th epast tracks in Sonic CD)

[Rusty Venture]

Why waste all that R&D on an "add-on" when you could just make an entirely new system? (See 32x).

Or just make a scaled down System 32 or Model 1 board instead.

The problem I feel the Sega-CD had is that it was designed in Japan to combat a system that wasn't even a threat in the US & Europe (PC Eninge CD). It seems developers outside of Japan were kinda like "What am I supposed to do with this?"...which is why we got FMV junk.

[mick_aka]

17 Bit CPU

That bit above the rest ;)

[Dunn]

1: an even bigger market than nintendo & whatnot, thus making room for more games, who knows what we could have seen if some companys focused on the MD rather than the NES/SNES. :)

2: The audio is fine, but the standard-output isn't.

3: At the time, RF was the most common thing, so I don't blame them, but i'd liked a better video-output option besides the RF.

4: Skip the whole 32x and focus on the Saturn, perhaps it'd be a bigger hit then, who knows.

5: All boxes share the same theme, -> no ea box crap <-.

6: Since everyone is so hyped about leds, a led-color-switch. I personally enjoy the whole black/red theme.

7: keyboard/mouse along with a cartridge/cd that would have the appropriate tools for programming on the md.

all i can think of right now.

[N.Saibot]

1. It is called Mega Drive everywhere.
2. There is only the japanese design, cart boxes however look like the early european ones.
3. There is no model 2 and no different revisions of the motherboard. Best soundchip forever and everywhere.
4. Yeah, a bigger color palette would do no harm.
5. No unneccesary background noise in the headphone jack.
6. Much more good games for the Mega CD, severe lack of FMV games.
7. No 32x but the concentration goes toward even more new Mega CD and Mega Drive+CD games.
8. Oh, by the way: 50/60Hz switch is built in and all games are not optimized for PAL in any way, so the switch brings the true speed on a compatible television back without problems and/or sideeffects.
9. Forgot one visual change as well: there is a big white european-styled MD logo where the Genesis logo would belong.
10. Don't know, maybe a better use of the multiplayer function with that modem-thing. Like at least every fighting game supports it.

[kool kitty89]

Why waste all that R&D on an "add-on" when you could just make an entirely new system? (See 32x).

Or just make a scaled down System 32 or Model 1 board instead.

Yeah, but I was kind of thinking in terms of what they did, an dwhat Nindendo did with "chipped" cartridges (a single add-on is way cheaper in the long run, and can have more features practically).
Generally I agree though, no add-ons, just come out with a (compatible/evolutionary) new console sooner (like by late 1993 -at least for the JP release)
Something capable of handling decent newer Sega Arcade ports even a bit of the 3D stuff fairly well, and maybe updated near-perfect ports of older games. (in compilation form) Plus lots of potential of more advanced, original/multiplatofrom games.
An actual scaled-down System-32 probably wouldn't be very practical. (the Genesis was't a direct derivative of the System-16 after all -unlike some claim)




The problem I feel the Sega-CD had is that it was designed in Japan to combat a system that wasn't even a threat in the US & Europe (PC Eninge CD). It seems developers outside of Japan were kinda like "What am I supposed to do with this?"...which is why we got FMV junk.

It was more than that though, Sega wanted to test the waters for the new media as well, not just compete with NEC, though I suppose theycould have gone the conservative route and just observed others in that market. (PCE-CD games, FM Towns, PC CD-ROM games, etc) -kind of a counter argument for my non-CD add-on I suppose.


Anyway, FMV didn't come about from "we've got this thing, now what can we do with it," but rather, already had a history on laserdisc platforms (which lost favor fairly quicky in the 80s, which should have been a warning of fad material right there), but more importantly, Digital Pictures had already developed a couple games (and were working on/planning more), but had lost their planned platform (initially a clumsy VHS-type system, later switched to cable TV access) and were thus looking for any other platform to put their stuff on, the Sega CD was just one of the first to become available. (had it not, such games would have come out on PC, 3DO, or maybe CDi first instead)

So I don't see that as Sega's direct fault, other than promoting the "multimedia" genre, somthing common with other CD based platforms as well, not unique to Sega. (one coud argue that since Sega had one of the earliest, and most widespread of such platforms that they acted as a catalyst for this, but I personally don't agree)

On top of that, besides from the "interactive movie" type FMV games, there were plenty of great games relying on streaming video capability as well. (Silpheed, NovaStorm -and not so good Microcosm, Mega Race, etc) Plus games that used it just ofr cutscenes, like The Terminator, SoulStar, Stellar Fire, Road Rash, or Sonic CD. Really, there are only a handfull of the Dragon's Lair or Night Trap type FMV games on the console, having Sewer Shark as a priminent pack-in probably skewed this perception though.

[Beastech]

#1: I wouldn't mind more colors on screen.

#2: 32X and Sega CD should stay, but the Saturn should have been a 32X and Sega CD combined with a faster CD drive. Cheap and powerful, with lots of games that can already be played on it. Over time phase out the stand alone Genesis/Sega CD/32X hardware and only offer this Saturn.

#3: The modem would have been AWESOME.

#4: 6-button from the start.

[Deo]

Genesis:
1. Scaling, even if it's like the SNES' background only Mode 7
2. The 6 button controller should have been around since the beginning.

Sega CD:
3. Able to use all of the Genesis' 512 colors at once
4. With 512 onscreen colors most of Sega's older arcade games could have been ported over with little or no change. Fantasy Zone's specs are very close to the Sega CD's.
5. Less FMV crap.
6. That Guitar Hero idea.
7. Tons of awesome games like Sonic CD and Shining Force CD.
8. Tons of awesome arcade ports
9. Tons of awesome arcade ports

32X
10. Doesn't exist


7.every controller is a 6 button controller


#3: The modem would have been AWESOME.

#4: 6-button from the start.

It's nice to see that everyone wanted the 6 button controllers more common/always around, and a Genesis Modem would be goldly.

[ApolloBoy]

Keeping 1988 in mind, here's what I would suggest for the Genesis/MD...

1: S-video through the AV jack
2: YM2151+PCM chip instead of a YM2612
3: More colors onscreen
4: A 4-button controller (Start, A, B, C, D) would be nice; 6-buttons would've been a bit much in 1988
5: All cartridges would be the same shape as Japanese carts
6: Call it the Mega Drive for all territories
7: Video input on the cartridge port; this would allow for more graphically complex carts without the need for the 32X
8: Stereo audio through the AV port
9: Scaling and rotation
10: External RF modulator

[PimpUigi]

1. 4096 colors, 256 on screen
2. YM2608 Sound chip
3. Named Genesis in all regions*
4. Max realistic RAM that lets the console cost $200 in 1989 (not 1988, I don't care)
5. Composite video and stereo RCA out jacks on the back of the Model 2
6. 6-button controller from the start (mode button still exists, simply called the "R" button)
7. Internal hardware only changes with physical model, and only gets better
8. Support for on cart chips that add features such as scaling and rotation when needed
9. 32X as close to the PSX specs as possible, with as much ram as possible for a $200 November 1995 release
10. Saturn doesn't exist - replaced with a complete "Genesis 32CDX" unit, or some cool Genesis xxx name

* = I like rhyming as much as the next old school rapper, but Sega Mega just seems redundant.
Not to mention everyone just said "Do you have a Sega?" no one actually called it the real name.

[kool kitty89]

1. 4096 colors, 256 on screen
2. Sound chip that provides good voice quality...rest of the sound on Genesis, I wouldn't change.
3. Named Genesis in all regions*
4. Max realistic RAM that lets the console cost $200 in 1989 (not 1988, I don't care)

For the Sound chip you could go with the YM2608, which the 2612 is a stripped down version of from the same family. (over the 2612, it adds a ADPCM channel with up to 16 kHz playback, plus 3 SSG channels -square wave with envelope control) This wouldn't be as cheap though. (but you'd then have 6 4-op FM channels, 6 square wave channels -3SSG+3PSG- a noise channel and the ADPCM channel) Also, if the SSG works identicaly to on the YM2149 you could also use that portion to play additional 8-bit resolution samples via a software trick. (what the Atari ST does, probably somewhat less quality than current DAC in the YM2612 -still a useful addition to the ADPCM channel)

Of course, the Sega-CD adds that nice Ricoh PCM chip. (roughly comperable to what SNES has) So if you favor add-ons (including a non-CD based one liek the Sega CD hardware) just wait for that.

As for RAM, perhaps they could replace the somewhat exotic PSRAM for a bigger block of (relatively cheaper) DRAM, along with additional refresh circuitry necessary. (128 KB of DRAM liek the SNES uses would be nice) The Genesis already has 2 MB of address sapce reserved for that, its just that only 64 kB were used.

Using 4 bit DACs for a 12-bit (4096 color) palette would have been nice, mayne not too much more expensive by a year later, as for more colors on screen, additional subpalettes (more 16-colro palettes, the SNES uses them, and the TG16 has a ton), plus it might have been cool to allow for something like a static (not hardware scrolling or such) 256 color screen (even if it had to be 1/2 horizontal resolution), particularly in combination with something like the Sega CD (or enhanced on-cart hardware).


5. Composite video and stereo RCA out jacks on the back of the model 2
If we're trying to be realistic here (a better console that would still be practical to sell to a mass market), that's not very cost effective. However, it would have been cool to add S-Video support with the model 2. (even by 1989 it wasn't common enough to really be woth supporting, but I like the idea of switching to a 15-pin D-sub connector -probably DE-15 like VGA, with plenty of pins to have mono, L+R stereo, RGB+Sync, +5v, gnd, composite, Y/C s-video, and some left over for future expansion without needing to switch standards again- like adding YPbPr component video output, which should only take 2 pins as Y is already on s-video, plus one pin left over -maybe used to switch NTSC/PAL RGB into VGA mode)


7. Best sound and video chips in all hardware revisions. Or, they only get better/changed with new models of the system.

Chips were never the problem, VA7 onward ASIC implementatin of the YM2612 is actually superior to the discrete chip, the problem is the mixing/amp circuity used. (hence why you can mod them for great quality sound) Same thing with (non-emulation) hardware clones.


8. Hardware scaling and rotation
9. 32X has the Saturn's specs (especially ram)
10. Saturn doesn't exist - replaced with a complete "Genesis 32CDX" unit, or some cool Genesis xxx name.

Being realistic again, scaling and rotation support would probably be too much realistically speaking. Maybe put work into an enexpensive chip on-cart to do that later on, or go with an add-on, or make due with software and psudo-scaling/rotation. (cell animation)

I really don't think a Gen+CD+32x is a particularly effective rout to go, coem out with one add-on at most (and not late in life like the 32x, earlier like the CD), then go straight to a integrated new system. (add-ons are too limited, an integrated system design is far more efficient with way more options to expand with more efficiently)

This went in-depth on this: http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8497&page=3 (see chilly will's posts) basicly enhance the CD ASIC, integrate it onto a single chip along with a twinned genesis VDP feeding into an external RAMDAC (with expanded master palette, preferably 24-bit, but 18 or 15-bit could be OK), allowing various modes, namely 256 color palettes at same resolution and # of layers as genesis, double res (640 or 512) 16-color palettes, or double the number of 16-color palettes and layers at standard res. (or a mix of standard res 256 and 16-color layers, like 2 16-color BG layers plus a 3rd 256 color layer) Then other stuff like add the SH-2s, RAM, add more RAM to genesis side, maybe a 2x CD drive, etc



* = I like rhyming as much as the next old school rapper, but Sega Mega just seems redundant.
Not to mention everyone just said "Do you have a Sega?" no one actually called it the real name.

Hmm, redundant eh? How about just SegaDrive then? :cool: (just as long as noone mispronounces it as Seegah as in some EU/UK ads)

I personally prefer the Genesis name though, only problem is the awkward pluralization. ;)
Both sound better than Master System though, that name just doesn't sound like a proper videogame console name to me.


Edit
If anything it should have been Nintendo that came out with something liek the 32x, they did indeed have a time gap to fill before N64 came out, and had continually postponed their claimed CD Add-on, plus wased their "32-bit stopgap" with the Virtual Boy. The SNES was an even better platform to go for, you've already got a display capable of 256 paletized colors from a 15-bit master palette.

[PimpUigi]

The model 2 came out way after 1989, so the three RCA leads are completely plausible.


I know independent systems are better...more efficient, etc.

But no one was going to get a Sega Saturn.
It cost $500
If there was just a $200 add on for the Sega Genesis, that had the power of the Saturn...or a $400 system (Genesis+CD+32X)

Then things would have went better.
Weirder, learning period...but better.

If only Sega hadn't been so insistent with using the Saturn.
Sega could have had the Sega Playstation, or the Sega 64...but no...they had to make the Sega Saturn.

32X's sold like hot cakes. (sold out instantly)
And they weren't even worth it. (massive returns)

If 32X had been worth it, had a dedicated video processor like the Saturn, no Saturn around, Sega's reputation would not have tanked so quickly.
It would need to render in Triangles, instead of Squares, and it would need to come out with the right timing...but it could work for the stop gap.

Sega made two huge mistakes, one after the other...they should have went with upgrade, or new system.

Since there already was one upgrade, and they really wanted to try the upgrade route, it would have just been nice to get the upgrade route out of the way, with just one mistake, instead of two.

Either way, we get the Dreamcast next right?
In 1998 too...not too far away.

The mistake was even worse in the US, and maybe Europe, because the controller the Saturn launched with was terrible, ugly, and crappy.
That's like three mistakes.

No one trusted Sega after that, and that's why not enough people jumped on the Dreamcast band wagon.

[jerry coeurl]

They just should have forgone the 32X, and focused on the Saturn. Transplant the handful of worthwhile 32X titles to the Saturn (Knuckles Chaotix and Kolibri, for instance), and there would have been absolutely no reason for the 32X to exist.

Wait a tick. I thought this thread was about what we would like to change about the Genesis. So why the hell is everyone talking about the 32X and the Saturn?

[maxxfarras]

All the sega genesis hardware is perfect. (especially model 1)

The only thing that I could ask is that sega had continued to produce games for the sega genesis for more time. Nothing else. ;)

[kool kitty89]

The model 2 came out way after 1989, so the three RCA leads are completely plausible.

My '89 comment was specifically on S-video (and that the current M1 a/v port is OK for the time, though stereo would have been nice, the phono jack isn't that much of an issue)
But adding full RCA+DIN (not to mention SCART!) adds unnecessarily to cost, not just the added connectors, but additional mounting space/arrangements, and additional board connections. Something like a DE-15 jack should have taken about as much space as the old AV jack or EXT port, been more versitile (room for expansion on later systems, like component video), and non-propritary. (the latter point only really being important for retro/homebrew cable makers -though fitting along th elines of a lot of th estuf Sega engineered)
Other than the DE-15 (VGA connector), the less common 13-pin DIN connector is a consideration. (still enough pins to include S-video and component -tied to s-vid luma, but only if the dedicated mono pin was removed or composite video was removed -having S-video mixed into composite in the a/v cable)



I know independent systems are better...more efficient, etc.
But no one was going to get a Sega Saturn.
It cost $500
If there was just a $200 add on for the Sega Genesis, that had the power of the Saturn...or a $400 system (Genesis+CD+32X)
Then things would have went better.
Weirder, learning period...but better.[/QUOTE]

AFIK (in North America) the Saturn launch (or rather pre-emptively released) at $400, not $500, Sony still undercut them by $100 though. (and Saturn didn't meet that until a fiar bit after the PSX's release iirc)

But I wasn't suggesting the Saturn as the efficient design, it was somewhat flawed as well, and for some reason broke from Sega's trend of compatibility.
What I was suggesting was another system, as suggested in the aformentioned thread, derived from and compatible with the Genesis (and CD), saving development time and cost, enabling an earlier release, being at least somewhat cheaper than the Saturn hardware (moreso depending on how you make cuts, like a 1x vs 2x drive, and how much an dhow fast RAM is added). With both advantages and disadvantages in terms of power compared to the Saturn, but no more complex (and at least built on a familiar architecture), and powerful enough to compete in the 5th gen arena. (a better head start, like 32x time period, would have helped too, so long as a decent launch was made, again the 32x was handeled well enough in this respect, unlike the Saturn in the US)


If only Sega hadn't been so insistent with using the Saturn.
Sega could have had the Sega Playstation, or the Sega 64...but no...they had to make the Sega Saturn.

Well, who knows how the SGI chipset would have worked out with Sega, for Nintendo it proved somewhat problematic. (but Nintendo's lack of support for the programable microcode feature and cartridge media didn't help any)
As for Sega PSX, I was good on that idea whan I found out about it, but really, who knows what the end agreement would have been, look how Nintendo got screwed in the fine print with Sony on their disc system. (luckily for them they caught it in time to pull out)


If 32X had been worth it, had a dedicated video processor like the Saturn, no Saturn around, Sega's reputation would not have tanked so quickly.
It would need to render in Triangles, instead of Squares, and it would need to come out with the right timing...but it could work for the stop gap.

Sega made two huge mistakes, one after the other...they should have went with upgrade, or new system.

Since there already was one upgrade, and they really wanted to try the upgrade route, it would have just been nice to get the upgrade route out of the way, with just one mistake, instead of two.

THat's why I like the evolutionary, compatible console idea, it is an upgrade to the hardware, just not an add-on, and practically speaking, would end up being a good deal cheaper than buying both add-ons would for geneiss owners (with the Sega CD userbase too proportionally small to depend on directly), a good, consolidated, efficient, Super Genesis+CD console with competitive 5th gen capabilities should have been cheaper (not to mention more convienient) to make, distribut, and for customers to use (less space) than the add-on route. (and still cheaper an dmore efficient than a coresponding integrated neptune CD, in which case they'd then be supporting the add-ons ans consolidated system, even more complex!)


Either way, we get the Dreamcast next right?
In 1998 too...not too far away.

Yeah, but addressing piracy vulnerability from the start (in leu of the PSX) would have been nice, that and preferably make the controllers more like the Saturn 3D pad (really nice buttons and d-pad, plus th enormal cord location), and larger memory cards standard. Getting off topic here, but it would have helped int he Asian market to make the DC able to play VCDs out of the box. (it should easily have enough power to do it, probably SVCDS too -but didn't offer this afik)


The mistake was even worse in the US, and maybe Europe, because the controller the Saturn launched with was terrible, ugly, and crappy.
That's like three mistakes.

Umm, the Saturn wasn't really a mistake at all in Japan, it was Sega's most successful console in that region and was managed fairly well overall. That said, there should have been nothing to keep Chilly Willy's suggested system from having similar success.


No one trusted Sega after that, and that's why not enough people jumped on the Dreamcast band wagon.

Not enough previous Sega users at least, but from th epeople I know in general, they found the DC a rather attractive system to go for regardless, and a couple non-console games (one non-gamer in general, and one PC gamer) had ones as their last (and in one case, only ever) video game console. So they definitely reached out to new customers, but Sony was donig this way more, particularly as an affordable DVD player in the PS2. (getting some people who otherwise wouldn't have even gotten a console)

But yeah, problems in the 5th gen really hurt the DC's potential. (even so I'm not sure pulling the plug the way they did didn't hurt them more than following though could have)



Wait a tick. I thought this thread was about what we would like to change about the Genesis. So why the hell is everyone talking about the 32X and the Saturn?

Well, the 32x and Sega CD are extensions of the genesis, so they're fair, and the Saturn is a bit off

[mick_aka]

Not to mention everyone just said "Do you have a Sega?" no one actually called it the real name.

Never in my life have I heard anyone in the UK say "Do you have a Sega?" it is, and always was refered to as the "MegaDrive" in conversation.

[PimpUigi]

OK, good to know.
Here in the US, people really still refer to the Genesis as Sega.

Like, it was their only system or something.

Like if I ask someone what consoles they had growing up...

"Nintendo," "Sega," Super Nintendo, "PS1," PS2, and then the Wii (I think this is the stereotypical order people got consoles in this country, give or take N64 before PS2)

[Rusty Venture]

Never in my life have I heard anyone in the UK say "Do you have a Sega?" it is, and always was refered to as the "MegaDrive" in conversation.

Even I sometimes call it "Sega", just because I'm around my GF and she doesn't give two shits what it is called. Same with the NES (Nintendo)

Any system beyond 16-bit I call by their actual name. I dunno why, I guess I'm just a complicated dude.

[Dunn]

The MD is often called just a "SEGA" here in Sweden anyway.

[Chilly Willy]

Not getting into the CD or 32X, but what I'd have done to the MD:

1. Clock the 68000 at 12 MHz
2. 1 or 2 MB of RAM instead of 64 KB (2 MB is the max for Work RAM)
3. Clock the Z80 at 7.16 MHz in MD mode (saw that in an earlier post)
4. Connected INT line from FM chip to Z80 for more reliable timing of PCM
5. Parallel bank select register for Z80 instead of serial bank select
6. Give the Z80 multiple banks instead of one so that you could do multiple PCM sounds by adding them together. Just point each bank at a different sample. Four banks of 8 KB instead of one bank of 32 KB would have been much better.
7. Allow VDP to accumulate two (16 color) pixels to output as a single pixel with 256 colors. This would have half the resolution (160 instead of 320), but that wasn't a big deal at that time. The Atari did that with the GTIA - accumulated two 4 color pixels into a single 16 color pixel (resolution went from 160 to 80 wide).
8. Given the VDP two banks of VRAM, so the VDP could use one directly while the CPU had full access to the other bank. The BIGGEST problem on the MD as it is is that you have very limited access to the VRAM during the display. You either only update a few patterns per frame, or you spend multiple frames updating the whole display.
9. As mentioned in an earlier post, extend the palette to 12 or 15 bits instead of hilite/shadow.
10. Extend palette for 256 colors (goes along with 7 above).

All those were well within SEGA's abilities at the time. The more expensive parts of the above would be: faster 68000, faster Z80, more Work RAM, more VRAM, and higher resolution video DAC. All the rest is pretty simple and cheap.

[PimpUigi]

Half the resolution is just scary.
Many games would not look anywhere near as good as they do.

[Chilly Willy]

Half the resolution is just scary.
Many games would not look anywhere near as good as they do.

It would look fine for backgrounds. Also consider that Doom for consoles used "low resolution" display - it outputs the same pixel twice for each column, so it's the same as what I proposed anyway. VR for MD used two pixels for each pixel output to do shading, so this would have allowed VR at the resolution it used, but with proper colors instead of "blended" pixels.

[PimpUigi]

Yea but...Vectorman?
Sonic 3?
Sonic CD???

[Chilly Willy]

Yea but...Vectorman?
Sonic 3?
Sonic CD???

You don't HAVE to combine the pixels. So if you WANT 320 wide, you just stick to 16 colors. Also, many games (including Sonic) use "blending" to create more colors. So I don't think it would make a difference other than looking better on SVideo or RGB/component. Blending relies on the "smearing" that occurs with RF and composite to make two different color pixels seem like a different color. If you look at other threads here on SVideo and component output, you'll see screenshots where you get checker patterns of pixels instead of shades/colors. Allowing the programmer to choose to combine pixels with more colors would allow for more colorful backgrounds/sprites without the blending.

[kool kitty89]

All those were well within SEGA's abilities at the time. The more expensive parts of the above would be: faster 68000, faster Z80, more Work RAM, more VRAM, and higher resolution video DAC. All the rest is pretty simple and cheap.

Hmm, yeah, I think tomaitheous mentioned adding more subpalettes shouldn't have been too difficult, but probably just dropped for time constraints I think.

With RAM, you might be able to get a little saving switching from PSRAM to DRAM (encorporating necessary refresh circuirty of course, though in the Z80s case it has some refresh hardware built-in, but only for specific amounts of DRAM iirc) Maybe 128 kB for the 68k and 32 kB for the Z80? (a single 128 kB 16-bit DRAM for 68k, and 32 kB 8-bit DRAM for Z80 perhaps -addressed in 4 8kB banks or were you just talking about the Z80 accessing the 68k's RAM?)
Would it have been at all practical to use 2x 32 kB banks of VRAM, or would that be more limiting overall than the single 1x 64 kB block? (perhaps make it switchable between 2x 32k and 1x 64k blocks, no additional VRAM used -VRAM being rather expensive)

The 12-bit palette would probably be more realistic if anything (than 15-bit), maybe more of this would become reasonable had they kept it in development a tad longer. (still could have pushed for a US launch closer to JP one than the did, though honestly, the Genesis probably could have been a few months later in the US and been fine so long as the new marketing campaigns -Katz and later followed by Kalinske, and release of Sonic had occured around the same time) Added time would allow further development of the hardware, and mean lower cost for some components at release. (RAM, color DACs, CPU prices)

As for the CPU speeds, I beleive TmEE mentioned the existing Z80 is rated for up to 6 MHz, and with the existing 53.693 MHz clock /9 = 5.966 MHz. :)
Now the 68k otoh, you don't get nice numbers from that clock for 12.5 MHz (or 10 MHz really, which is the next down), the closest without going over is 10.74 MHz (which I think might be pushing it for a 10 MHz rated chip as well -most might be fine, but I doubt the engineers would be comfortable with overclocking the chips), with the next step down being 8.95 MHz. (which is what the Genesis derived System C-2 arcade board used with its 10 MHz rated 68k -which supports my assumption of 10.74 Mhz being too high)
Now then, if they could have gone with a doubled master clock of 107.387 Mhz, then you get pretty nice numbers for both ~10 and ~12.5 Mhz. (/11= 9.76 & /9= 11.93)



And add-ons asside, maybe going a route like Nintendo did with "chipped" carts would be an OK idea (so long as it didn't make prices like Virtua Racing, a few such games would be cheaper than an add-on -for customers and Sega to support- and definitely more cinvenient). Nintendo was pushing it a bit with the Super FX chip (probably mostly because of the 128 kB of RAM -a significant part of VR's cost too), maybe Sega could have come out with something like the CD's ASIC uded onboard carts. (if it still needed a good chunk of RAM to render in like the word RAM in Sega CD that kind of set-up would probably be too much though). Then again, they could go for a simple lock-on cart layout (S&K style) for a simple, inexpensive add-on. (just the ASIC and a RAM, running of the cart slot's 5V power) Particularly cool if the Genesis already supports that 1/2 horizontal res 8-bit palette mode.

Thinking even more, it might have been really cool to have such an add-on with ASIC and SVP-like coprocessor (and have affine mapped polygons), or maybe even still add a sound upgrade, like the Sega CD's Ricoh chip, or a simpler upgrade. (but doing all that would probably start getting pretty expensive and use too much power to piggyback on the Genesis power supply, and with the improved Z-80+DAC layout, the sound upgraded is less necessary, though still would have been nice, particularly for music) And I think it would have been better to have such an add-on under $100. (well maybe $100 with a built-in game, as VR cost that, but now you're getting a good bit more for the value)

[Chilly Willy]

With RAM, you might be able to get a little saving switching from PSRAM to DRAM (encorporating necessary refresh circuirty of course, though in the Z80s case it has some refresh hardware built-in, but only for specific amounts of DRAM iirc) Maybe 128 kB for the 68k and 32 kB for the Z80? (a single 128 kB 16-bit DRAM for 68k, and 32 kB 8-bit DRAM for Z80 perhaps -addressed in 4 8kB banks or were you just talking about the Z80 accessing the 68k's RAM?)

I was talking about the one 32 KB bank to reach 68000-space from the Z80. That needed to be four 8 KB banks instead. Especially since they used a serial bank select register. As it is now, you can't switch banks fast enough to do more than one, or possibly two streams of PCM. Having four banks would allow four streams, even with crappy bank selecting. Then there's my suggestion (others have made it too) that the serial bank selection register be changed to parallel - one write to set the bank instead of 9.

Your point about DRAM prices is good. Using DRAM instead of PSRAM would have made more Work RAM cheaper. Adding refresh to the chips is also not an issue. It's super easy to have - leaving it out to use PSRAM was a bad move as it unnecessarily increased the price of the console. The money saved on using plain DRAM may have allowed them to use more VRAM. At least it would have paid for much more Work RAM. You could probably get 2 MB of DRAM for the cost of 64 KB of PSRAM, ESPECIALLY back when this came out. Specialty RAM like PSRAM or VRAM was considerably more expensive than plain DRAM.



Would it have been at all practical to use 2x 32 kB banks of VRAM, or would that be more limiting overall than the single 1x 64 kB block? (perhaps make it switchable between 2x 32k and 1x 64k blocks, no additional VRAM used -VRAM being rather expensive)

Yes, splitting it two banks of 32 KB probably would have been okay. It certainly would have kept the price the same. The extra circuitry needed to interface two blocks of 32KB VRAM so that it could appear as two blocks with no contention, or one block with contention would have been negligible. It's VERY similar to what SEGA did with Word RAM in the SEGA CD just a couple years later.



The 12-bit palette would probably be more realistic if anything (than 15-bit), maybe more of this would become reasonable had they kept it in development a tad longer. (still could have pushed for a US launch closer to JP one than the did, though honestly, the Genesis probably could have been a few months later in the US and been fine so long as the new marketing campaigns -Katz and later followed by Kalinske, and release of Sonic had occured around the same time) Added time would allow further development of the hardware, and mean lower cost for some components at release. (RAM, color DACs, CPU prices)

12 bit palettes were common in the 80's - the Amiga shipped in Jan '85 with a 12 bit palette, so the MD could have had that just as easy. It would just mean two extra resistors per color (red, green, blue). Video DACs up through 6 bits per color just use resistor ladders. Seeing when the MD came out, it really SHOULD have been at least 12 bit, with 15 bit being no trouble. I mean, what's the "extra" cost of six more resistors???



As for the CPU speeds, I beleive TmEE mentioned the existing Z80 is rated for up to 6 MHz, and with the existing 53.693 MHz clock /9 = 5.966 MHz. :)

SEGA was putting out arcade boards with 8MHz Z80s at the same time. If it was TOO expensive, even going back to 6MHz (or 5.966 as you point out) would be better than 3.58 MHz.



Now the 68k otoh, you don't get nice numbers from that clock for 12.5 MHz (or 10 MHz really, which is the next down), the closest without going over is 10.74 MHz (which I think might be pushing it for a 10 MHz rated chip as well -most might be fine, but I doubt the engineers would be comfortable with overclocking the chips), with the next step down being 8.95 MHz. (which is what the Genesis derived System C-2 arcade board used with its 10 MHz rated 68k -which supports my assumption of 10.74 Mhz being too high)
Now then, if they could have gone with a doubled master clock of 107.387 Mhz, then you get pretty nice numbers for both ~10 and ~12.5 Mhz. (/11= 9.76 & /9= 11.93)


The point is that they could have used different clocks altogether - we're talking about slight changes to the Genesis BEFORE release, not afterward. Go with a 12 MHz clock for the 68000, and use 1/2 that for a 6MHz Z80. Any higher frequency from 10 MHz up to whatever they felt they could afford would have been better than 7.6 MHz.



And add-ons asside, maybe going a route like Nintendo did with "chipped" carts would be an OK idea (so long as it didn't make prices like Virtua Racing, a few such games would be cheaper than an add-on -for customers and Sega to support- and definitely more cinvenient). Nintendo was pushing it a bit with the Super FX chip (probably mostly because of the 128 kB of RAM -a significant part of VR's cost too), maybe Sega could have come out with something like the CD's ASIC uded onboard carts. (if it still needed a good chunk of RAM to render in like the word RAM in Sega CD that kind of set-up would probably be too much though). Then again, they could go for a simple lock-on cart layout (S&K style) for a simple, inexpensive add-on. (just the ASIC and a RAM, running of the cart slot's 5V power) Particularly cool if the Genesis already supports that 1/2 horizontal res 8-bit palette mode.

Yes, VR would have looked much better with less hassle. No need to blend pixels.



Thinking even more, it might have been really cool to have such an add-on with ASIC and SVP-like coprocessor (and have affine mapped polygons), or maybe even still add a sound upgrade, like the Sega CD's Ricoh chip, or a simpler upgrade. (but doing all that would probably start getting pretty expensive and use too much power to piggyback on the Genesis power supply, and with the improved Z-80+DAC layout, the sound upgraded is less necessary, though still would have been nice, particularly for music) And I think it would have been better to have such an add-on under $100. (well maybe $100 with a built-in game, as VR cost that, but now you're getting a good bit more for the value)

That's another thing in retrospect that could have been made better - a better connector on the side for expansion. Some of the "odd" aspects of the SEGA CD are due to the limitations of the signals present on the expansion port.

[kool kitty89]

Half the resolution is just scary.
Many games would not look anywhere near as good as they do.

In addition to what Chilly Willy already mentioned about the standard resolutions, note that that blending effect (fithering) used with blurry composite video would not be necessary for the most part. (I know you mentioned recently that you don't like the way the dithering looks in S-video or RGB without blending of blurry compoite/RF -of course, on many tvs -especialy newer ones with better comb filters, the dithering-and pixels in general- is still quite visible)

[Chilly Willy]

To be a little more specific, I was thinking something like this: have an enable for the two scroll planes, the window, and the sprites (4 bits). When the enable is set, the color palette select bits for the cell select palettes 0 to 2, but instead of palette 3 it instead changes from an 8x8 cell of 16 colors to a 4x8 cell of 256 colors. That way you can set 256 color on a cell to cell basis, while still allowing the 16 color cells to select between three palettes (instead of four).

An alternative would be to change from two palette select bits to one palette select and one resolution select. That would restrict you to two palettes of 16 colors instead of three, but then you'd also get two palettes of 256 colors instead of one.

That should be flexible enough to take care of issues about only being 160 pixels.

[kool kitty89]

Your point about DRAM prices is good. Using DRAM instead of PSRAM would have made more Work RAM cheaper. Adding refresh to the chips is also not an issue. It's super easy to have - leaving it out to use PSRAM was a bad move as it unnecessarily increased the price of the console. The money saved on using plain DRAM may have allowed them to use more VRAM. At least it would have paid for much more Work RAM. You could probably get 2 MB of DRAM for the cost of 64 KB of PSRAM, ESPECIALLY back when this came out. Specialty RAM like PSRAM or VRAM was considerably more expensive than plain DRAM.

I don't think the difference would have been that extreme, using PSRAM was probably still a fair bit cheaper than the other option of using real SRAM (hence why they used it, although PSRAM is probably a bit more exotic than SRAM). But 2 MB in ~1988/89 would have been rather expensive, plus taken up a lot more board space. (128 kB ICs were largest affordable) From what I understand real SRAM tended to be around 10x as expensive than contemporary DRAM, PSRAM would be somewhere in between. (it is just DRAM with built-in refresh circuitry, the downside is the relative obsurity and low volume production, particularly compared to DRAM, but even to SRAM in that respect -SRAM just using a lot more silicon)
But going by this: http://phe.rockefeller.edu/LogletLab/DRAM/dram.htm
2MB would have cost around $222 in 1989. (and use 16 128 kB/1Mb DRAMs -in which case you'd probably use 1-bit DRAM chips)

Still, maybe use 2x 128 kB 8-bit DRAMs instead of the 2x 32 kB 8-bit PSRAMs would have been practical. (though the SNES used 128 kB of DRAM that was slower and on an 8-bit bus -assuming being clocked similarly to the CPU, probably 250 ns DRAM, but then again, they had 64 kB of SRAM for audio, with video using PSRAM similar to MD's main RAM I think)

But maybe go with a single 128 kB x16-bit 80 ns DRAM chip (like the 32x framebuffers and Sega CD word RAM use), which would corespond to a 12.5 MHz rated 68k. (not sure how expensive RAM that fast would have been at the time though, for 10 MHz you'd need 100 ns of course, the 80 ns was at least fine by 1991 with the Sega CD though) 128 k would probably allow more room for other upgrades like a faster CPU too without getting too expensive.



12 bit palettes were common in the 80's - the Amiga shipped in Jan '85 with a 12 bit palette, so the MD could have had that just as easy. It would just mean two extra resistors per color (red, green, blue). Video DACs up through 6 bits per color just use resistor ladders. Seeing when the MD came out, it really SHOULD have been at least 12 bit, with 15 bit being no trouble. I mean, what's the "extra" cost of six more resistors???

Yeah, the PC Engine/TG-16 and Atari ST had 9-bit paltees too, but both of those were a bit older than the MD (and the ST was designed with lower cost in mind than the Amiga, though by '89 the STe had an extended 12-bit palette). Then again, the Mk.III/SMS was released around the same time as Amiga/ST and with only a 6-bit RGB palette. But yeah, that should have been a pretty simple improvement, the Game Gear used a 12-bit palette, and having that would definitely be more useful than shadow/hilight.



The point is that they could have used different clocks altogether - we're talking about slight changes to the Genesis BEFORE release, not afterward. Go with a 12 MHz clock for the 68000, and use 1/2 that for a 6MHz Z80. Any higher frequency from 10 MHz up to whatever they felt they could afford would have been better than 7.6 MHz.

I think the reason for the 53.7 MHz clock in the first place is compatibility with master system (and is a multiple of colorburst clock, so an additional oscilator isn't needed for that). So if you don't want SMS compatibility, then fine (but in Europe at least, that was a selling point, and a big part of designing the hardware the way it was with compatible modes on the VDP and the Z80)
Assuming you still wanted to avoid a 2nd oscilator for colorburst, you could use a 14x colorburst clocked oscilator: 50.11 MHz, which divide nicely to ~12.53 MHz and ~10.02 MHz. That would also allow 3.58 Mhz (the colorburst frequency) which the SMS Z80 uses, but I think there are other clocks necessary from the 53.7 MHz signal for SMS compatibility. (like the VDP clock)

If a 107.4 MHz oscilator would have been an option, I'd definitely go with that. There's a 13.4 MHz speed possible directly from 53.7 MHz/4, but that would mean going all the way up to a 16.67 MHz rated 68k which was new in the ;ate '80s and probably rather expensive) Maybe you could do some weid layout as well, like use the 53.7 clock, with Z80 at 5.966 MHz and then take the Z80s clock and multiply x2 that for the 68k's speed of 11.93 MHz. (in the case of a 10 Mhz 68k, knock the Z80 down to 53.7/11= 4.88 and double that to 9.76 MHz)


That's another thing in retrospect that could have been made better - a better connector on the side for expansion. Some of the "odd" aspects of the SEGA CD are due to the limitations of the signals present on the expansion port.

Well, they could elliminate the expansion connector entirely and use only the cart slot instead, or just have the exp connector a clone of the cart connection. (having accesories attach to the side might make things a bit easier, particularly in terms of FCC approval -32x had problems with that) Have it set-up so when a game is in the cart slot it switches to that for priority. (like the Sega CD already does)
With a faster CPU in the genesis, and a cart-slot equivelent interface, maybe the Sega CD could have been designed without the sub-CPU and have the word RAM set-up differently. You'd now have a wide address range for the genesis to access without banking, but you still need the RAM for the ASIC to render in right -would it be fine with just a single 128 kB block dedicated to it? (maybe double the program RAM to 1 MB while you're at it, so instead of 2x 128 kB chips plus 1x 512 kB chip the CD has iirc, 1x 128 kB for the ASIC to render in and 2x 512 kB chips for program RAM)
BTW is the genesis's cartridge bus clocked at the same speed as the 68k's main RAM?

And there's no reason a smpler or on-cart enhancement would have been mutually exclusive with the Sega CD, hell doing that and re-using some of the Sega CD hardware (like the ASIC) for a cart/lock-on type expansion.

[Genesis32XCD]

1. standard s-video, composite video, and stereo rca output on back
2. keep the "High Definition Graphics" text on all model 1's and add in "Stereo Sound" like on European models
3. add in "AV Intelligent Terminal" and "High Grade Multipurpose Use" text like on Japanese models
4. bigger "16-Bit" logo like on Japanese models
5. on the 3-button controllers, have the text "Sega Genesis Control Pad" above the Sega Genesis logo in a curved pattern like on Japanese and European controllers
6. keep the red markings on all 3-button controllers (why did they get rid of those anyway?)
7. all regions use the same cartridge style

[Chilly Willy]

I don't think the difference would have been that extreme, using PSRAM was probably still a fair bit cheaper than the other option of using real SRAM (hence why they used it, although PSRAM is probably a bit more exotic than SRAM). But 2 MB in ~1988/89 would have been rather expensive, plus taken up a lot more board space. (128 kB ICs were largest affordable) From what I understand real SRAM tended to be around 10x as expensive than contemporary DRAM, PSRAM would be somewhere in between. (it is just DRAM with built-in refresh circuitry, the downside is the relative obsurity and low volume production, particularly compared to DRAM, but even to SRAM in that respect -SRAM just using a lot more silicon)
But going by this: http://phe.rockefeller.edu/LogletLab/DRAM/dram.htm
2MB would have cost around $222 in 1989. (and use 16 128 kB/1Mb DRAMs -in which case you'd probably use 1-bit DRAM chips)

DRAM wasn't that expensive - I put 4MB of DRAM in my Amiga 500 for less than that in '90. But even 256KB would have been FAR better than the measly 64KB they used.



Still, maybe use 2x 128 kB 8-bit DRAMs instead of the 2x 32 kB 8-bit PSRAMs would have been practical. (though the SNES used 128 kB of DRAM that was slower and on an 8-bit bus -assuming being clocked similarly to the CPU, probably 250 ns DRAM, but then again, they had 64 kB of SRAM for audio, with video using PSRAM similar to MD's main RAM I think)

But maybe go with a single 128 kB x16-bit 80 ns DRAM chip (like the 32x framebuffers and Sega CD word RAM use), which would corespond to a 12.5 MHz rated 68k. (not sure how expensive RAM that fast would have been at the time though, for 10 MHz you'd need 100 ns of course, the 80 ns was at least fine by 1991 with the Sega CD though) 128 k would probably allow more room for other upgrades like a faster CPU too without getting too expensive.

There was plenty of options for memory at the time. I'm not sure why they went the way they did. It wasn't the cheapest route - that would have been 64 KB of DRAM, not PSRAM. The extra gates needed for refresh is well less than the extra paid for PSRAM, especially when the VDP needed to generate refresh to the VRAM anyway.

[kool kitty89]

DRAM wasn't that expensive - I put 4MB of DRAM in my Amiga 500 for less than that in '90. But even 256KB would have been FAR better than the measly 64KB they used.
I expect those are average values, so specific prices would vary, but also note that it lists the price of DRAM dropping from $13.9/Mbit in '89 to $6.2/Mbit in '90. (so at that, just under $200 for 4 MB. (both figures for 128 kB ICs, which were the cheapest in both examples; in '88 32 kB chips were the cheapest though)




There was plenty of options for memory at the time. I'm not sure why they went the way they did. It wasn't the cheapest route - that would have been 64 KB of DRAM, not PSRAM. The extra gates needed for refresh is well less than the extra paid for PSRAM, especially when the VDP needed to generate refresh to the VRAM anyway.

And the Z80 has its own refresh circuitry, at least useful for its own bank of RAM. (though I seem to remember the Z80's refresh set-up was rather picky and specific to certain block sizes of DRAM, not that 8 kB wasn't one of those supported sizes)

Maybe they did it to expediate development, the same reason for limiting th enumber of subpalettes the way they did. (at least that's the impression I got from tomaitheous on that)

[kool kitty89]

Hey, I was thinking, and maybe one of the reasons they didn't use more subpalettes or a larger master palette was concerning CRAM needed for that. (and even moreso for supporting 256 paletized colors -supporting direct 8-bit RGB -especially togglable between 3-3-2,3-2-4,and 2-3-3 RGB might be an option, but that could be done with a 9-bit DAC alone) The current 4x 16x9-bit entries would only require 72 bytes of CRAM (fairly skimpy), with 12-bit entries that goes up to 96 bytes, double the subpalettes and that's 192 bytes, and if you want 256 entries (plus more 16-entry subpalettes). -15 bit would obviously mean even more.

The SNES has 512 bytes of CRAM PC engine must have more than that to support 512 9-bit entries. (at least 576 bytes) So the MD would seem to skimp by comparison. (but 512 bytes of integrated SRAM compared to 72 bytes would mean tens of thousands more transitors in the VDP) Sticking with only 4 subpalettes and using 1 256 color palette with 12-bit entires would be fine within 512 bytes. (only 456 bytes) And I suppose you could allow 8 16-entry subpalettes alone, and limit than when a 256 color mode is used. (2x 12-bit indexed 256 color palettes would require a lt more though, unless the 2nd palette wasn't indexed, but a simple direct 8-bit RGB palette maybe selectable between 3-3-2/3-2-3/2-3-3 RGB) Or do other weird things like not indexing from the full 12-bit palette. (SNES mode 3 indexes from 4-4-3 RGB I believe)

[Mark Robert]

I can't list ten changes but I'd want s-video as a standardized optional video output.

[kool kitty89]

They probably could have added s-video to the model 2 rather easily (that is, if they hadn't used the horrible samsung video encoder on any models). Just a few more discrete components and you get s-video from the encoders already being used on the model 1s. (and continued though model 2s -the final models using the CXA1645 video encoder would require even fewer components added -that's also the encoder used in many PlayStation consoles)
The model 1 would be stuck as they recycled the 8-pin DIN of the SMS. (also why stereo is only on the headphone jack) Though in hindsight, they could have eliminated the EXT port in favor of an enhanced video out port. (and used that alone for the model 2 -the DE-9 port would be rather limiting though, a DE-15 port or DIN-13 would be much more future proof)

Hell, they probably could have elliminated both the headphone jack and EXT port and gone with a new a/v port standard, maybe even saved more than they did from using old stock from SMS production. (th eheadphone jack is awesome though)

S-video would be less important for the 1989 launch (88 in japan), though still probably significant, probably less of a concern in Japan with RGB inputs on some higher-end sets and SCART in Europe. (S-video was on high-end sets by then though, my mid 1988 Zenith Advanced System 3 is a testament to that)

[Cyttorak]

Perhaps I am saying a very big nonsense but... what about stripping everything except the 68K and put another one (maybe less powerfull) or just one 68K with enough power to go with frame-buffer based graphics and software mixing mod-like sound? Too expensive? Too big games?

[Jasper061992]

My ideal changes for the Mega Drive

-128KB of RAM instead of 64KB.
-256 colours out of a 15bit colour palette.
-Dual YM2612s for dual PCM channels and 10 FM channels.
-Built in hardware Scaling and rotation.
-The Mega CD released in 1994/95 instead of 1991/93 and had 32x technology built into THAT with the 8 channel Ricoh soundchip,with 1MB of RAM that can also access the 128KB already built into the Megadrive and with 2x drive speed. ALL instead of the clunky addon.
-Blue LED as others have said.
-Stereo built in from the back A/V port.
-12Mhz Motorola 68000 CPU instead of the 7Mhz.
-96KB of VDP VRAM instead of the 64KB.
-16KB of RAM for the Z80 sound controller which in itself is clocked at 4Mhz.

Lol, i think my ideas just ran quite wild here! Not sure if all these hardware ideas is to be within the consumer budget of the Mega Drive of back in the day, because what i just listed above here no doubt, would have been prohibitively expensive. Then again, maybe had the Mega Drive been released in late 1990 like the SNES in Japan, maybe alot of above would have been realised.

But i love the Mega Drive AS the way it is anyway. It's what it is.

[kool kitty89]

Perhaps I am saying a very big nonsense but... what about stripping everything except the 68K and put another one (maybe less powerfull) or just one 68K with enough power to go with frame-buffer based graphics and software mixing mod-like sound? Too expensive? Too big games?

You mean like an Atari ST, just with better sound? That would be really weak, so no... If you wanted to go the bimap/framebuffer route, you'd want to go the blitter route instead, software driven stuff if farily weak (even with a 12 or 16 MHz 68000), I mean the 32x did that much later, but that's with 2 fast RISC processors, noting really cheap enough at the time. (maybe and ARM CPU) Going any of those routes would probably mean more development cost, no SMS compatibility, and different capabilities. (varios tradeoffs between a blitter driven system and sprite+scroll display)
Had the blitter been something like the MCD's ASIC and the bitmap controller something like the 32x's "Super VDP" then you might have something there, but tha't not really changing the MD, it's dropping it entirely. (you might as well go straight for somethimg more like the MCD with its own bitmap display controller alone, just without the drive, maybe different sound setup, and maybe a slower CPU) That, or wait until 1990 to release the thing.

There are other changes (suggested in the last couple pages) which would have fasilitated a far less cripped Sega CD (its got soem nice hardware that's pretty bottlenecked), namely an enhanced expansion port, that, or a more moderately enhanced cart slot, elliminated expansion port entirely, and use the cart slot alone for expansion. (MCD could have been a more compact flip lid top sitting system, sort of liek on the Jaguar, look at the Super Magic Drive or Power Base Converter)






My ideal changes for the Mega Drive
Brows through the last couple pages (start with Chilly Willy's port on pg 13) we discussed some changes rather like this in greater detail. ;)


-128KB of RAM instead of 64KB.
Use cheaper DRAM and even 256 kB should be a good bit cheaper than the original PSRAM. (facilitating other enhancements)


-256 colours out of a 15bit colour palette.
Or at least a 12-bit palette, and the simplest change would be to keep the normal 16-color modes, but allow 256 color layer(s) at 1/2 horizontal resolution as well. (great for some colorful BGs and especially for any 3D stuff -remember that a lot of things used dithering anyway, so the detial loss may be reduced in some cases)


-Dual YM2612s for dual PCM channels and 10 FM channels.[quote]
You can do dual PCM mixed on the single DAC, the dual DACs would really help with stereo though, and of course you could have 12 FM channels as well. (and various pairings for stereo and such) Cost would be a factor of course. (and improvements could ahve been made to the Z80's interface which would improve PCM quality quite a bit)

[quote]-Built in hardware Scaling and rotation.
Maybe, or possibly facilitate on-cart expansion just as with better expansion port for C (or rely on cart slot for both, with added features), an ASIC dedicated to such should be relatively cheap. (most SNES add-on chips were) Anything that would drop in priced substancially after launch would be preferably to handel as such, if practical to include onboard, that would be best. (promoting its usage as it could be accesible to every game -then again, look how rarely the Sega CD used it)


-The Mega CD released in 1994/95 instead of 1991/93 and had 32x technology built into THAT with the 8 channel Ricoh soundchip,with 1MB of RAM that can also access the 128KB already built into the Megadrive and with 2x drive speed. ALL instead of the clunky addon.
At that point it would probably be best to forgo an add-on entirely and go for a new system, probablt only about a $50 price difference practically speaking, and one less peice of hardware to support. However, with improvements to the interface used, the Sega CD could ahve been far mre capabile for little to no added cost in 91/92. (and then the '94/95 system could be fully integrated and compatible, but being even more efficient due to full integrateion, and building on the base hardware to something really powerful -more RAM, added features to the ASIC, dual SH2s, 2x speed drive -rather liek the evolution of SG-1000=>SMS=>MD)


-Stereo built in from the back A/V port.
They probably could have elliminated the EXT port to facilitate this, either as an auxilliary a/v port, or drop the SMS type DIN-8 as well and go for a single, new standard. (I' partial to a DE-15 -ie VGA- or DIN-13 as they could be rather future proof, especially the DE-15) The cost saving for removing the EXT port may be enough to counter the advantage of using old SMS stock for the A/V connector/cables. (dropping the headphone amp/port could be another way of saving, but that's a really nice feature) As mentioned S-video shouldn't have cost much to add either. (they probably coul omit it from JP or EU/UK models at least, with the popularity of RGB -especially EU/UK with S-video not comign until later, and being a weaker standard)


-12Mhz Motorola 68000 CPU instead of the 7Mhz.
Facilitated by cheaper RAM (orobably not exactly 12 mHz though as the same master clock is needed unless you make sacrifices) Or 10 Mhz at least.


-96KB of VDP VRAM instead of the 64KB.
having dual VRAM banks would be more important, 2x 64 kB would be best, 2x 48kB would be kind of funky and inefficient (inconvineint for standard IC sizes), witht eh cheapest option being to use 2x 32 kB banks which could be configured int eh normal 1x64 kB bank as well.


-16KB of RAM for the Z80 sound controller which in itself is clocked at 4Mhz.
No need, the Z80 already has access to an extra 32 kB of the 68k's RAM, the problem is the bank selection method, either break that into 4x 8kB banks or use parallel bank selection instead of serial. (1 write instead of 9) Connecting the Z80's INT pin to the YM2612 to improve timing was also suggested.
Then 4 Mhz is wimpy, the current one supposedly is fine for 6 Mhz on all models, and the 53.7 Mhz master clock divides nicely to 5.97 Mhz, or go up to 7.67 Mhz on a 8 Mhz rated Z80. (the 5.97 MHz value is convienient as it would facilitate the 68k's clock for 2x that for 11.93 Mhz, much closer to 12 than the master clock can divide to)

So even sticking with 1x YM2612, you'd get much better PCM. (albeit no full stereo -just hard panning L/C/R as with unpaired FM channels)


Lol, i think my ideas just ran quite wild here! Not sure if all these hardware ideas is to be within the consumer budget of the Mega Drive of back in the day, because what i just listed above here no doubt, would have been prohibitively expensive. Then again, maybe had the Mega Drive been released in late 1990 like the SNES in Japan, maybe alot of above would have been realised. Some would be, but a lot is a matter of hindsight, though some not so much. (possibly just rushed out with compromizes as such -perhaps that's why they used PSRAM, had the VDP's color/subpalettes were so limited, etc, etc) Pushing the release back ~6 months migth have made a lot of difference, and probalby not had a huge effect on the western market. (probably more positive than negative, the Genesis onyl started to pick up in 1990 under Katz -Genesis Does, and Sonic was the real boon for Kalinske -getting Walmart to stock it was significant for sure)


But i love the Mega Drive AS the way it is anyway. It's what it is. Yeah, and that's why the suggestions I put forth didn't remove any of the original hardware features, justs added to them, or made them more flexible (so nothing could have been worse or lost ;)) verry different from Cyttorak's suggestion...
And what does "AS" mean?

[mick_aka]

The MegaDrive II/Genesis 2 should have been a complete backward compatible redesign with perhaps a 68020, faster z80, 4096 colour palette...

Some of the late MD/Genny releases could have looked astounding with those few hardware updates included in the II revision.

But that's just my little dream ;)

[Jasper061992]

The MegaDrive II/Genesis 2 should have been a complete backward compatible redesign with perhaps a 68020, faster z80, 4096 colour palette...

Some of the late MD/Genny releases could have looked astounding with those few hardware updates included in the II revision.

But that's just my little dream ;)

Then that would be a massive kick in the teeth for all the early Model 1 adopters. Would you yourself want to fork out another £199 odd for a new standalone Mega Drive revision just for the enhanced games in a period that is forshadowing the 32bit era? Not a very good way of handling your console through it's lifespan. Unless offcourse, you made an addon unit...

Did i just mention the 32x?...


And what does "AS" mean?

Oh nevermind. I meant I love the Mega Drive AS IS, for example: The more limited colour palette and the FM sound that made the console produce a more 'gritty' result in comparision to the 'happy' theme of the SNES. Know what i mean? ;)

[kool kitty89]

Then that would be a massive kick in the teeth for all the early Model 1 adopters. Would you yourself want to fork out another £199 odd for a new standalone Mega Drive revision just for the enhanced games in a period that is forshadowing the 32bit era? Not a very good way of handling your console through it's lifespan. Unless offcourse, you made an addon unit... Yeah, pushing the release date back is one thing, but alienating consumers... (just wait for the real successor, Sega really screwed themselves with all the hardware, confusing to customers, and costly to support -stretching Sega thin) With a few modifications to the genesis the CD's added hardware could have been so much more useful.



Oh nevermind. I meant I love the Mega Drive AS IS, for example: The more limited colour palette and the FM sound that made the console produce a more 'gritty' result in comparision to the 'happy' theme of the SNES. Know what i mean? ;) Oh, I thought "MegaDrive AS" might mean something, the phrase was a little confusingly worded. ;)

I don't see FM as gritty per se, it definitely has its charm though, I didn't grow up with the Genesis, but I did grow up with PC games using sounndblaster. :D SNES actually uses sampled FM instruments pretty often too, I wouldn't necessarily call the SNES "happy" either (well both the mario and sonic tunes often have a "happy" sound to them in general), orchestral stuff was used a lot, but in terms of sound "happy" doesn't strike me. (I grew up with Nintendo stuff -albeit I think we got our SNES in christmass of 1996 -after N64 was out and After we had X-Wing on PC)

There's a lot of rather generic sounding music on both those, the average person would probably lean toward the SNES in prefrence though. (and then there's the Sega CD's added 8 channel PCM chip which pushes it over the edge in combination with MD sound hardware -like in Silpheed -no streaming audio except in cutscenes)

[nathanallan]

How would I change my favorite console..?

1. Blue led panel instead of a single angry red light
2. S-Video standard
3. Crystal clear audio from the start

...

Nothing else, if we're talking dollars from back then. That would be it.

[Iron Lizard]

Curb feelers definitely.

[kool kitty89]

How would I change my favorite console..?

1. Blue led panel instead of a single angry red light
Am I the only one who likes red LEDs (and neon tubes on some old electronic equipment)?
I don't care for the blue LEDs persinally, or white ones even -though better than blue (or the blacklight/UV ones). An off orange closer to an actual neon tube would be interesting though, green might be as well, or a nice amber/yellow.


3. Crystal clear audio from the start
But didn't they?
I mean, compared to a CCAMed model2/VA7 M1 the only difference is the higher quantization noise of the TM2612 (can change that) and filtering. (which gives the model 1s the characteristic strong bass -save the VA7 of course)

Unless you mean a better mixing circuit on the VA7 and all model 2s/ (VA3/4 is OK though)

Stereo on the AV jack would be nice as well. Using a new A/V port would facilitate that and S-video; ditching the EXT port could probably mitigate some of the cost there, and not much issue in the long run as the main advantage with the original A/V port was using SMS parts stock and A/V cable inventory. The added advantage of the new AV port would be no change in that port on the model 2, plus it could be future proof, either a DE-15 (ie VGA) or DIN-13 (used on the Atari ST's monitor port) could have been continually used with provisions for new standards, especially the DE-15. (probably fine through dreamcast even, supporting every analog video standard -possibly use one pin to set a VGA mode for RGB)



Nothing else, if we're talking dollars from back then. That would be it.Yeah, that's what chilly willy and I were going back and forth about, there sould have been improvements possible which shouldn't have siginificanty impacted the price (moved it up to 200 instead of 190 USD if anything), switching to DRAM for one should have saved a lot, even doubleing or quadrupling the quantity, upgrading the 68k would certainly add cost, but a 12 MHz one still might be doable (maybe 10 MHz otherwise).
Then there's the Z80 alterations (a lot of which is connectivity -int pin, bank selection mechanism, etc; the currently one should support 6 Mhz as well -8 MHz being a replacement and adding to cost).

Then there's the VDP, upgrading that wa probably a time constraint if nothing else (8 instead of 4 palettes, and a 12-bit master palette), prhaps the significantly increased number of transistors would be another problem. (for added CRAM, but both the PCE and SNES had at least 512 bytes of CRAM) Not allowing for 2x 32 kB bank VRAM mode was probably all time related. (using 2x 64 kB banks would obviously increase cost, VRAM being rather expensive )

Finally, there's the expansion interface, the CD would have really benefitted from added connectivity. If necessary, you could drop the expansion port entirely and put a bit more on the cartridge slot (like the unused VDP color bus -obvuously retaining it on the later VDP asics rather than removing it as they did historically).
Then the CD could have used a top sitting flip-top form factor, probably cheaper to manufacture too. (more like the Jaguar CD, or a bit like the PBC or Super Magic drive -obviously a bit larger)

Personally I'd prefer the added connectivity on cart regardless as it could facilitate on-cart enhancement as well. (though with the lager palette, double the subpalettes, increaded RAM, and faster CPU -and especially if the 1/2 res 256 color mode was added, the existing cart slot would be fine -with a beter expansion slot of course; w/out the expansion port, definitely add to the cart connector)

A lot of those changes could probably have been made with a bit of delay to the release, and IMO that would be well worth it, for the western markets at least. (some changes being fairly obvious from a technical standpoint -without hindsight)

[zilog]

Option for a deluxe model with more robust casing, in brushed aluminium style, that screams 'i am a classy b*tch' (lots of VCRs were like that in the 80s)
Some kind of ZIF, or eject cartridge slot (i dont like the Megadrives mechanism, it invites forceful insertion and destruction of carts)
Inbuilt snail game

[N.Saibot]

Option for a deluxe model with more robust casing, in brushed aluminium style, that screams 'i am a classy b*tch' (lots of VCRs were like that in the 80s)
Some kind of ZIF, or eject cartridge slot (i dont like the Megadrives mechanism, it invites forceful insertion and destruction of carts)
Inbuilt snail game

I don't think someone has ever destroyed a
cartridge just by inserting it into the Mega Drive.
I guess that the lack of an eject button can be
considered a small engineering flaw, but I was
never really having problems with the way things
work there. I had a console with such an eject
button and mostly pulled the cart out through force.

The brushed aluminium thing is more like it, make
it black, brushed, thick aluminium. This would be
tripple awesome : D

[kool kitty89]

Option for a deluxe model with more robust casing, in brushed aluminium style, that screams 'i am a classy b*tch' (lots of VCRs were like that in the 80s)
Some kind of ZIF, or eject cartridge slot (i dont like the Megadrives mechanism, it invites forceful insertion and destruction of carts)
Inbuilt snail game
If you take the SNES for example, the ejection mechanism is by force, the only advantage is label wear (which would depend on how you grip the cartridge anyway).

And taking another example from nintendo, the NES's ZIF(ish) connector provided nothing but hedaches in terms of reliability. (in combination with the finicky lock-out chip)

Persoanlly I really like the tight grip the Genesis had compared to other consoles, makes games less likely to freeze if bumped. (N64 is quite good though given it's very easy to insert/remove slot, while still providing relatively good shock stability -SNES being more suceptable)

[runback22]

If I were to change something, it would be to not let Sega whore my beloved console out and create their own demise.....Part of the reason the Saturn failed was because of the sega cd and 32x debacle....The dreamcast failed because of the sega cd, 32x, and saturn failures....

[Jasper061992]

If I were to change something, it would be to not let Sega whore my beloved console out and create their own demise.....Part of the reason the Saturn failed was because of the sega cd and 32x debacle....The dreamcast failed because of the sega cd, 32x, and saturn failures....

Psst! Don't forget the PS2 with it's almighty DVD player, something the Dreamcast wished it had...

[crazyteknohed]

I don't know what sega were thinking, this is much better!

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/paul.james21/megadrive7.png

I gotta quote this just to bump it up the thread... it's fookin' jawsum!!

[17daysolderthannes]

Psst! Don't forget the PS2 with it's almighty DVD player, something the Dreamcast wished it had...

how many times do I have to go through this?

The DC failed because people learned how to make bootleg copies that didn't even need a system modification to run. Right after, all 3rd party companies jumped ship. DC was well liked and sold great up until that discovery in late 2000/early 2001.

[Christuserloeser]

Like music market crashed with the introduction of radio.

[Jasper061992]

I gotta quote this just to bump it up the thread... it's fookin' jawsum!!

Eh. I dunno, it looks retardedly messy.

[N.Saibot]

Like music market crashed with the introduction of radio.

Not really, but it kind of did with the introduction of
downloadable mp3s and fast enough internet. At least
the music market isn't doing as good any more.

[kool kitty89]

how many times do I have to go through this?

The DC failed because people learned how to make bootleg copies that didn't even need a system modification to run. Right after, all 3rd party companies jumped ship. DC was well liked and sold great up until that discovery in late 2000/early 2001.

Well, it was a combination of factors of course: their weak position in the west after all the problems durring the 5th generation, Sony's huge market share and deep pockets (simply announcing the PS2 having a substancial impact), and the CD-R problem of course, which was more of a perceived risk for developers than a serious problem. (it would facilitate genuine bootlegers for sure, but the internet was nowhere near to facilitating casual pirating -at most there could be physical peer to peer disc swapping and ripping+burning)

Sega was slow to react though, they should have made a major anouncemnt (and effort) concerning added security on new models. (really though, they screwed up with that oversight, only dev systems should have had that functionality -that and they should have had some additional security mechanism as well, though they probably thought the propritary format would take care of that -and indeed may have otherwise)

In spite of Sony, I don't see why the DC couldn't have continued its success to a reasonable degree without that major problem. (especially considdering the limited success Nintendo and MS had later on)



Eh. I dunno, it looks retardedly messy.
Yeah, I like the built-in headphone splitter, but the A/V ports would obviously make more sense on the back, and the SMS slot would have gone either in front or directly behind the genesis one. (though goign that route, they'd probably have the Genesis slot an expanded version of the SMS slot, with outboard connectors for MD carts -like A7800 or the SNES)
Really though, it seems like providing SMS compatitibility may have limited the Genesis's design, and as cool as compatibility is, it only really made sense for the EU market. (the MD would have merited it a lot more, but of course, the Saturn went a different route)

[m68k]

1. No bad audio circuit in later models
2. No Samsung anything.
3. Speed up the 68000 to 12MHZ.
4. Boost work ram from 64k to 128k. Also do the same to VRAM.
5. Scaling and rotation in the VDP
6. Dont have a Second revision case. Make the original genesis smaller by about an inch.
7. Stereo AV by default
8. Keep the red LED. Its unique in a world full of Blue LED's that torment your eyes.
9. More useful Sega CD with 256 colors on screen out of a 16M pallet.
10. Boost Z80 to 5MHZ in Genesis mode.