1995 article on the never-fully-developed Saturn 2

[parallaxscroll]

Keep in mind that the Saturn 2, as described in this article (and other articles & posts that I'll probably add) could have been either a completely new console, or, the much-talked-about 3D upgrade cartridge for Saturn VF3 and other games. The Saturn 2, in either form, would've been as awe-inspiring to the Sega fan, as the fully-developed, but never-released 3DO M2 was to the 3DO fan.

I would prefer to think that this Saturn 2 was going to be a new console, that would've made it more plausible from a technology standpoint, since it is very likely the 32-bit Saturn could not have supported such a powerful Saturn 2 addon....Whatever bus is accessed by cartridge port was probably far too slow. Also as we all know, most addons fail -- Saturn 2 could've easily been a "64X", had it been an addon. As a fresh console however, Saturn 2 could've been the 'next playstation' as far as success, based on the incredible power it would have possessed in the 1996/1997 timeframe. We're talking about a machine with around 1/3 to 1/2 the performance of the MODEL 3 arcade board, and well beyond the MODEL 2 board. It would have also pushed Dreamcast several years back, to 2000 or 2001.


As I said, I'll probably add more articles and more posts on the subject of the Saturn 2 when I find them again.

Anyway, enjoy.

http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/3985/saturn2lmc1crop983x9806js.th.jpg (http://img80.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saturn2lmc1crop983x9806js.jpg)http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/258/saturn2lmc2crop1033x13522rk.th.jpg (http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saturn2lmc2crop1033x13522rk.jpg)http://img122.imageshack.us/img122/6834/saturn2lmc3crop1063x14140sq.th.jpg (http://img122.imageshack.us/my.php?image=saturn2lmc3crop1063x14140sq.jpg)

[Iron Lizard]

Bleech Next Generation

[Zebbe]

I wonder why Sega didn't release this. Then they could have become the great third party developer they sought out to be much sooner!

[Rusty Venture]

Heh....."great". :fail:

[parallaxscroll]

I wonder why Sega didn't release this. Then they could have become the great third party developer they sought out to be much sooner!



Very funny!

[old man]

I'm more interested in the ultimate 2D machine that sega dumped in favor of the hodge-podge of parts that became the original saturn. Does anybody have a link to that article that details the fall of sega?

[parallaxscroll]

I'm more interested in the ultimate 2D machine that sega dumped in favor of the hodge-podge of parts that became the original saturn. Does anybody have a link to that article that details the fall of sega?

Do you mean the Jupiter? (circa 1993) ...Because that was just a Saturn without CD-ROM.

Did you mean the Giga Drive? (development started in 1990 or 1991) It was based mainly on the System32 board. Giga Drive was a very powerful 2D machine but not as strong in 2D as Saturn.

[Zebbe]

Very funny!

Another funny thing is how many consoles/add-ons/portables Sega had support for and under development 1994-5:

Game Gear
Pico
Mega Drive/Genesis (+Nomad)
Mega CD
32X
Saturn
Jupiter
Neptune
Saturn 2

... I bet they had some more they didn't tell us about!

[parallaxscroll]

In 1995/96 Sega was also going to use the 3DO M2 as the basis for a new console from a deal almost struck with Matsushita, the owners of the M2 tech....I guess it could be said that falls under the Saturn 2.....Unless you want to count Saturn 2 as a specific machine, as described in the Next Generation article, and the Sega/3DO M2 machine as something else. The Sega/M2 machine wasn't named, but you could call it 'Eclipse' which was one of the names going around for an upgrade and/or new console.

[Rusty Venture]

The M2 will always be a great "what if".

What if it had actually come out and what if it have been developed further.

[108 Stars]

parallaxscroll, you are talking about old console-rumors as if there is any proof they ever existed. Magazines always spread rumors about the next big things, but that does not mean they have ANYTHING to do with the reality.
Developing hardware is expensive, and I am sure there was no seperate Giga Drive, Jupiter, or Saturn 2 aside from the hardware we definately know of. What was once called Giga Drive by mags might be the WIP of what we know as 32X today, and Saturn 2 might be either Katana or Dreamcast.

Don´t take all that bs once written too seriously. I remember rading about a hardware add-on for the PS1 too, and about a PlayStation-R with more RAM, and a PlayStation 64. Yet I am sure none of them was ever worked on.

[InternalPrimate]

I wonder why Sega didn't release this. Then they could have become the great third party developer they sought out to be much sooner!

Nice :D

[parallaxscroll]

The M2 will always be a great "what if".

What if it had actually come out and what if it have been developed further.



The development of M2 was completed. Although it was never released as a console, it was used in several Konami arcade games. M2 was also used for other non-gaming purposes.

The Saturn 2, IMO, is the bigger/greater 'what if'.

[Melf]

Bleech Next Generation

What's wrong with Next Gen? It was an excellent magazine, and it's one of the few from that era that still hold up if you go back and read it now.

[Iron Lizard]

I have my reasons. I still have a few of them. When 3d was new and still awe inspiring it was fun to read. I did enjoy the large amount of interviews. Now more then anything It reminds of that horrible time of transition after the 16-bit era. Everything I loved about the 16bit era was more often then not trampled in that magazine. 2d games were out usually slammed and games like Twisted Metal were all the rage.They were really obsessed with hardware. In fact the whole point of the magazine was hardware in fact. They were always dangling a carrot in front of its readers noses. It had a nice look though and was made of nice paper.

[parallaxscroll]

parallaxscroll, you are talking about old console-rumors as if there is any proof they ever existed.


Sega admited to at least being in talks with defense contractor Lockheed Martin to design the graphics chip for Saturn 2 and possibily Hitachi to manufacture a PowerPC CPU. It was more than just rumor. I'm not talking about baseless rumors like "Sega is working on a '64X'-like Eclipse upgrade for the Saturn" blah blah, that you'd see in EGM's Quartermann or GameFan's Other Stuff rumor columns. The Saturn 2 was widely reported across magazines and websites, in a fashion that did not sound like rumor at all. Not only was this so called 'rumor' widespread, it spanned years. From 1995 until 1997.


oh here's the EGM rumor column I was talking about

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/5549/egmrumorshe9.th.jpg (http://img210.imageshack.us/my.php?image=egmrumorshe9.jpg)
V
^
http://i40.tinypic.com/2ypjb79.jpg

typed out for those that can't read the blurry scan
V
^


In other Sega news, Yu Suzuki sand and the white shirts at AM2 are currently knee deep into the development of VF3 for the Saturn, which will be released in Japan around October. The game (a CD) is designed to run in conjection with a 3-D cartridge upgrade that plugs into the port on top of the Saturn...can you say 64X? The Lockheed Martin Corportation (the company that designed Sega's Model-3 arcade architecture) is currently working on the 64-bit cart, which is based on the Real 3D chipsetm LMC's upcoming 3-D accelerator for the PC. The entire package is targeted to retail for 9800 yen in Japan (about $90 U.S.) with 6000 yen of that for the CD and about 3500-4000 yen toward the cart. Our Q-spies report that VF3 will be but just a small taste of Sega's 64-Bit console technology. Sega has also commissioned LMC to design a killer 64-Bit game system code named Pluto. The new system, due out in early 1998, is said to offer 3-D performance that could rival (if not surpass) the Model-3 arcade board. Look for Sega to make an official announcement of the new console (along with the first look at VF3) at the upcoming Tokyo Toy Show in June.






It is also very well known that Sega worked with Nvidia and funded Nvidia and their never-seen NV2 chip in 1995/96. It was specifically for a new Sega console. that could be called Saturn 2.



Magazines always spread rumors about the next big things, but that does not mean they have ANYTHING to do with the reality.
Developing hardware is expensive, and I am sure there was no seperate Giga Drive, Jupiter, or Saturn 2 aside from the hardware we definately know of. What was once called Giga Drive by mags might be the WIP of what we know as 32X today, and Saturn 2 might be either Katana or Dreamcast.

I agree that Giga Drive basicly evolved into what became Mars (32X), Jupiter (never released) and Saturn.

Saturn 2 was in planning (not development) as early as fall 1994 just before Saturn came out in Japan. Saturn 2 was put on hold for a while, until sometime in 1995 after things became clear that Saturn was struggling. Talks between Lockheed Martin and Sega about Saturn 2 (or whatever codename if there was one) started up again, thus, the Next Generation article. I highly, highly doubt NG made that up. It wasn't rumor. Why would they dedicate 3 whole pages to a baseless rumor ?

Saturn 2 was definitally not Katana/Dreamcast (SoJ console w/ Videologic PowerVR). BTW, it's not either Katana or Dreamcast because those
are the very same thing. Almost like Mega Drive = Genesis,
except they used the Dreamcast name in Japan and worldwide.

It is possible that Saturn 2 = the Black Belt (a console that went up against the Katana/Dreamcast for the right to replace Saturn). The Black Belt was developed fully, with 3DFX graphics (before it was canceled in favor of Katana/Dreamcast). However before SoA settled on 3DFX for Black Belt they also were concidering Lockheed Martin at some point.



http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=323&title=Interview:%20Toshiyasu%20Morita



Toshiyasu Morita: I evaluated a lot of hardware, mostly PC 3D hardware such as the SMOS Pixelsquirt, Lockheed-Martin Real3D, and processors such as the PowerPC. Was involved in two pieces of hardware which were never released: an SH3E+Nvidia combo which never went anywhere, and I was on the compiler/debugger guy for the SH4+3Dfx board.


What might have been the same thing is a Saturn 2 console and the Saturn 3D upgrade cartridge, using Lockheed Martin Real3D graphics. There was also talk of having both a Lockheed Real3D-based 3D upgrade cartridge for Saturn and a Lockheed Real3D-based next-gen console. In the same sense that there was (absolute fact) both a 32X upgrade with Hitachi CPUs for Genesis, and a next-generation Saturn console also with Hitachi CPUs.

Imagine if the 32X never came out, but had been developed, then canceled, and swept under the rug by Sega. Imagine if there were only incomplete reports of the existance of the 32X. And years later, people bring up the subject of an unreleased 32-bit upgrade for the Genesis that could theoretically be far more powerful than the base Genesis in terms of colors, sprites, polygons, etc. It would sound outrageous and be called rumor.

That is really what I believe happened with the Saturn 2, whether it was an upgrade for Saturn or a new console.





Don´t take all that bs once written too seriously. I remember rading about a hardware add-on for the PS1 too, and about a PlayStation-R with more RAM, and a PlayStation 64. Yet I am sure none of them was ever worked on.

The PS1 hardware addon you're talking about, yeah I remember that, it was 'PlayStation Type C' with more VRAM, it was rumored to be for Tekken 3. That really was a rumor and has no basis in fact, Sony/SCEI always denied it and I believe them.

Sega admitted to talks with Lockheed Martin for graphics for a new console, and Lockheed Martin admitted to talks with Sega about the very same thing. LM stated that no hardware was actually developed, apparently it didn't go that far, so they say.

[parallaxscroll]

not from Next Generation:



The Dreamcast Story

''A do-or-die machine which will decide whether Sega stays in the
hardware biz''

Dreamcast is a system born out of Sega's darkest hour, a do-or-die
machine which will decide whether the company stays in the hardware
business. Its precursor, the 32bit Sega Saturn, had been widely
expected to conquer the world with Nintendo's own second next
generation system heavily delayed -- due to the collapse of an
alliance with Sony -- and neither Atari nor 3DO seriously threatening
mass market success.
All that changed with the November '93 announcement of the Sony
PlayStation, a system which would heavily defeat Sega's system and
become a considerable influence on how Sega designed Dreamcast.
Although there had been rumours of Sony producing a console, what came
as a heavy shock to Sega was the technical superiority of the
PlayStation. While the Saturn had been designed as perhaps the
ultimate 2D arcade machine, albeit with a substantial 3D capability,
PlayStation was totally committed to polygons.

Sega boss Hayao Nakayama angrily berated Sega's engineers for their
failings, but it was too late to totally redesign the system if the
1994 launch was too proceed. Instead, Sega added yet another processor
to an already over-complicated design. In terms of raw power, the new
Saturn was much more of a match for PlayStation, but it would never be
an easy machine to program for. The twin CPU design in particular
demanded highly specialised machine code rather than the C most
Japanese developers prefered: barely a year after Saturn's launch a
key Sega manager admitted only one in a hundred programmers would have
the skill to use the machine's full potential.

Ironically, the Saturn's Japanese launch would be Sega's best ever
performance in its home territory. Even a flawed version of Virtua
Fighting was enough to transform the company's traditional weakness in
its home territory. Overseas, however, it was to be a different
matter. Scepticism about the prospects of a CD-ROM machine succeeding
in the cost-sensitive US market meant Saturn was originally partnered
with a low-cost, cart-based system codenamed Jupiter -- principally
due to American scepticism that a CD-ROM machine could be
competitively priced. When Saturn was upgraded, Jupiter got axed in
favour of Mars, an upgrade for Sega's 16bit Mega Drive which was
supposed to protect the company's hugely lucrative US market. In fact,
32X was an unmitigated disaster, drawing vital developer support away
from Saturn and destroying the company's reputation among gamers who
found themselves with an add-on with barely a handful of games.

The Saturn debacle would cost the jobs of Sega's American and Japanese
bosses, beside reducing its US empire to a ruin running up losses of
$167 million in 1997. For any replacement machine the lessons were
clear: a single format, complete user-friendliness for developers and
a new brand -- so low had sunk the once mighty Sega name.

As soon as any console is launched, work is usually underway on a
replacement but the Saturn's troubles gave this process an unusual
urgency for Sega. By 1995, rumours surfaced that US defence
contractors Lockheed Martin Corp. were already deep into the
development of a replacement, possibly even with a view to releasing
it as a Saturn upgrade. There were even claims that during Saturn's
pre-launch panic a group of managers argued the machine should simply
be scrapped in favour of an all-new LMC design.

Sega originally entered into partnership with LMC to solve problems
with its Model 2 coin-op board, however by 1995 the relationship had
soured somewhat with the Model 3 board suffering massive delays.
Around the same time, 3DO began shopping around its 64bit M2 system.
According to informed sources, Sega's Japanese bankers had brokered an
unwritten deal whereby Matsushita would manufacture M2 units, while
Sega would concentrate on the software. M2 devkits were supplied to
Sega in early 1996, with initial work reputedly concentrating on a
Virtua Fighter 3 conversion for M2's launch.

Sega's M2 project soon fell apart however. 3DO's Trip Hawkins blamed
corporate ‘egos' for the collapse, while Sega insisted its engineers
were unconvinced M2 was the breakthrough technology they needed.
Instead, the company was increasingly preoccupied by the PC market --
unlike Nintendo, it was fully prepared to convert its games onto the
format and in mid-1995 it had entered into a partnership with PC
graphics card manufacturer nVidia. Under the terms of the deal, Sega
would supply ports of key Saturn titles exclusively for the nVidia PC
graphics card. At the time, pundits wondered if Sega might be
switching from Saturn to nVidia as its principal platform.

By 1996, this speculation was ebbing away as two clear frontrunners
emerged in the PC graphics market: VideoLogic's PowerVR and 3Dfx's
Voodoo chipsets. Sega approached both companies to be partners in two
parallel Saturn 2 projects, each of which having minimal if any
knowledge of the other. The 3Dfx-Sega of America project was codenamed
Black Belt, while the VideoLogic-Sega of Japan system was known as
Dural. Although console development is usually shrouded in total
secrecy, Saturn 2's development coincided with the rise of the
Internet and Black Belt soon became a popular topic of gossip. For a
time, many presumed Black Belt was the only new Sega system.

All this changed on July 22nd, 1997, when 3Dfx was informed them Black
Belt was cancelled. It was a shattering blow -- "Our contract with
Sega was considered to be gospel right up until we received the call,"
admitted marketing manager Chris Kramer. Two months later, 3Dfx issued
a lawsuit against Sega while blaming VideoLogic's Japanese backers,
NEC, for bringing influence to bear on a decision which would
otherwise have gone to 3Dfx. An initial burst of publicity soon gave
way to highly confidential discussions which settled the lawsuit away
from the public eye in August 1998.

For outsiders, 3Dfx had always been the favoured partner due to their
leadership in the PC market, moreover Sega let it be known the
decision to cancel wasn't due to either performance or cost reasons.
What may have been a factor is 3Dfx's very strength made it a
difficult partner for Sega, VideoLogic's second-place status obviously
made it the hungrier partner. Moreover, whereas 3Dfx see themselves as
creating a new gaming platform around their Voodoo hardware and Glide
software, VideoLogic were much more eager to use Microsoft's Direct3D
API.

Whatever the reasoning behind the decision, the PowerVR decision
further dampened excitement about a machine soon to be redubbed
Katana. In January '98, UK trade newspaper CTW ran a savage onslaught
upon the new format: "When one looks at a format owner that actually
struggles to garner interest in its latest hardware announcements, you
know it''s in trouble. From Black Belt to Dural and Katana,
journalists have leapt into headline mode, but the level of
disinterest elsewhere is palpable." Commenting upon the latest
redundancies in America and Britain, Dinsey wondered whether the
company was "giving up and trying to re-invent itself as a PC
publisher."

In May, Sega gave its response with the official announcement of its
new system, its specifications and that controversial name: Dreamcast.
The marketing campaign began with the announcement of the marketing
campaign and its $100 million budget for each territory: America,
Europe and Japan. Sega boss Shoichiro Irimajiri put the cost of
hardware development at $50-80 million, software development at
$150-200 million, which with marketing added up to half a billion
dollars.

The PR statements were suitably bullish: "Dreamcast is Sega's bridge
to world-wide market leadership for the 21st century" commented Sega
US VP Bernie Stolar. "I am confident that Dreamcast will become a de
facto standard for digital entertainment" claimed Sega chairman Isso
Okawa. However, it was at E3 itself that the tide really began to turn
for Sega with bravura software demos finally earning the machine
journalists' respect. Post E3 reports were full of adoration , as
impressed by the restoration of Sega's old self-confidence as the raw
processing power on show. Dreamcast's launch date was set as November
20th and this time all Sony can threaten is the announcement of new
hardware -- 1998 is Dreamcast's alone.

From E3 onwards, Sega orchestrated a careful drumbeat of
announcements, including the launch of the VMS unit on July 11th to
tie-in with the Godzilla movie and a much hyped August 22nd PR event
for Sega's old mascot in Sonic Adventure. In September, Sega ran an ad
showing MD Eiichi Yukawa being abused by members of the public who
preferred Sony -- and promising all would change with Dreamcast's
arrival. And so it is, everything now rests with the machine and its
software.

And even though this article calls it rumors, I'm sure there was some basis in reality to it. The question is, how far did the process go? It could be argued, not very far, nothing beyond talks between Lockheed & Sega for a Lockheed Real3D-based system or upgrade (or both).

[old man]

I have my reasons. I still have a few of them. When 3d was new and still awe inspiring it was fun to read. I did enjoy the large amount of interviews. Now more then anything It reminds of that horrible time of transition after the 16-bit era. Everything I loved about the 16bit era was more often then not trampled in that magazine. 2d games were out usually slammed and games like Twisted Metal were all the rage.They were really obsessed with hardware. In fact the whole point of the magazine was hardware in fact. They were always dangling a carrot in front of its readers noses. It had a nice look though and was made of nice paper.

I concure.

And, yea I was talking about the Giga Drive. I googled around and found the article I was looking for too.

http://www.eidolons-inn.net/tiki-index.php?page=SegaBase+Saturn

It's a really interesting read. The first page has some cool info about the Giga Drive. This article claims it was a separate machine from the mars/32x add on, although from the specs it doesn't seem as powerful.

[parallaxscroll]

I think Giga Drive was seperate from Mars/32X, because, Mars/32X was also seperate from Saturn. From everything I've read, it seems Giga Drive evolved into the Saturn.

............Giga Drive....................Saturn/Jupiter......................final Saturn
............1990-1991............1992......................1993.... ........................1994
68030 or NEC V60 CPU ===> Hitachi SH-2 CPU + 1x VDP chip ===> 2x SH-2 CPUs + 2x VDP chips. It might've been something like that.

The first time I heard of the Giga Drive was as a rumor in EGM December 1990. That's how far back it apparently goes.

Perhaps as Giga Drive with 68030 or V60 evolved into Saturn with Hitachi CPUs, the SoA-designed 32X/Mars, which also had twin Hitachi SH-2s, came about, in some kind of evolutionary split.

Addmitedly, I know alot less about Saturn's development than I do of Dreamcast's development and the many, many things that happened that lead up to Dreamcast, after Saturn was a done deal and in stores.


I like those Sega Base articles, they're great, detailed, although not 100% accurate.
There's no way that Giga Drive went into development as late as 1992-1993. It would've taken more than a year or two to develop something as complex as Saturn.

i.e. the NEC PC-FX console (released 1994) had evolved from the Iron Man / Tetsujin Project which was shown to the press in 1992. Iron Man most likely began development in 1990. I have little doubt that both Hudson and SoJ began developing their 32-bit consoles in 1990. They both had a long, painful development cycle, especially with word of PS-X / PS1 specifications in 1993.

[gamevet]

I didn't read all of this, but this sounds alot like the rumored add-on that would allow the Saturn to run Virtua Fighter 3. It was rumored that it would be packed in with the game.

[parallaxscroll]

I didn't read all of this, but this sounds alot like the rumored add-on that would allow the Saturn to run Virtua Fighter 3. It was rumored that it would be packed in with the game.


Basicly, yes, Saturn 2 could've been many things, including that add-on 3D accelerator cartridge that would let Saturn run VF3.


From what I understand, there were two entirely seperate versions of VF3 coded for Saturn by AM2, and neither of them used the 3D add-on, but ran on 'a stock Saturn'. So did the Saturn version of Shenmue. This sounds conflicting, but that's the story from what I've read on places like Assemblergames. Some trusted forum members swear the 3D add-on was real, but I have no info. Nobody is even saying what games were developed for the 3D add-on. Nothing has ever leaked.

The 3D tech in the add-on is said to be a Real 3D chip from Lockheed Martin, but which one has not been mentioned. There's a world of difference between the older, much more capable R3D/100 chipset (1995/1996)
(3 chips: geometry processor + texture processor + graphics processor) and the newer but less capable i740 chip developed between Real 3D & Intel (1997/1998). The i740 would've been more or less, close to MODEL 2 and 3DFX Voodoo1 and therefore nowhere near MODEL 3. The R3D/100, while not as strong as MODEL 3 (which had 2x R3D/Pro-1000 GPUs) would've been somewhat similar in architecture and been capable of decent downscaled Model 3 ports.


Whatever the case, it seems to me that SEGA passed up Lockheed Real3D tech for home console use at least twice, or, that Lockheed passed up getting its tech into the console market, at least twice.

[gamevet]

Here's a short clip of VF3 on the Saturn. This looks better than the screenshots I've seen of the game running on a stock Saturn.

HyJfiO3INrc

[Aarzak]

You mongogalongo!!! That's footage of the early Model 3 VF3 tech demo, as seen as a bonus in the Dreamcast port of VF3TB!!! False advertising on the part of the guy who posted that up.

[parallaxscroll]

Here's a short clip of VF3 on the Saturn. This looks better than the screenshots I've seen of the game running on a stock Saturn.

HyJfiO3INrc

oh for cryin' out loud. no. LOL.


Even if the Saturn had been upgraded with the most powerful concievable 3D chipset that was a candidate for the Saturn upgrade (the R3D/100 which has more power than the Model 2 arcade board and 3DO M2) there is no way VF3 on it would look quite that good. Of course that's an early demo of the Model 3 version. Now since that board had two R3D/Pro-1000s, that's more power than a single R3D/100.

Dreamcast had more raw power than the Model 3 board, and better features in most areas. Although Model 3 was still better than Dreamcast in a few areas. It's mainly because of the different architectures of the R3D/Pro-1000 GPUs and the PowerVR2dc /C LX2 graphics chip. Even some of SEGA's AM division members mentioned Model 3's superiority over Dreamcast in some ways. The R3D/100 (which we've never seen running games) would've had an architecture much closer to MODEL 3's R3D/Pro-1000 GPUs, with less power.

Dreamcast was capable of a better port of VF3 than Genki gave it. It was rushed, it was first-generation or pre-fristgen Dreamcast software. Instead of being about 80% or 90% of the arcade, it could've been 110% thus better. VF3 did not really even push the Model 3 board very hard, so whatever advantages Model 3 had over Dreamcast in terms of graphics rendering quality, were probably not used in VF3.

[gamevet]

You mongogalongo!!! That's footage of the early Model 3 VF3 tech demo, as seen as a bonus in the Dreamcast port of VF3TB!!! False advertising on the part of the guy who posted that up.

I've never played more than the demo on the Dreamcast. I didn't like how the fighters moved in VF3. :(

Here's screenshots of the Saturn game, without any hardware enhancements:

http://thesaturnjunkyard.blogspot.com/2007/12/virtua-fighter-3-saturn-screenshots.html

He needs to work on that Saturn collection. He only has 43 games.

[108 Stars]

@Parallax
Sorry, I confused Katana and Black Belt. I remember 3 code names, being Katana, Black Belt and Dural, and alwas confuse which was which.

But the point is, I don´t think it can be clearly divided into different systems; I believe that knowledge collected in development for a system magazines called Saturn 2 could very well have been part of the early Katana-development. There were Katana and Blackbelt, but I do not believe in a completely seperate third console design was started before and then abandoned; a company does not just abandon a hardware. "Saturn 2" may have been altered beyond recognition since the rumors began, but I am sure it was just the beginning of the Dreamcast.
Calling a System Saturn 2, X-box 2, Gamecube 2 is a pure result of not having a real name for it since company has not yet given anything away. Maybe that very project was already called Katana internally. Who knows?
All that magazines could ever hope to get is bits and pieces, rumors. They won´t be handed an official sheet before a system is announced.

Basically what I want to say is that seperating systems in development by old rumors, no matter how widespread they were, is pointless in the end; we can never know for sure, all is absolutely speculative. I believe the most likely thing is that the GigaDrive ended up as the 32X while the Saturn 2 architecture ultimately evolved into Dreamcast.

More fascinating for me would be seeing the systems that were almost done and not just rumored; systems like Atari Panther, the SNES CD drive and the M2.

@gamevet
We had those screenshots you linked to in an old thread, they are fakes. They seem to be something like a Dreamcast or arcade emulation with various effects turned off, like Goroud Shading to make it look more blocky etc. There are no real screenshots of the Saturn VF3.

[parallaxscroll]

@Parallax
Sorry, I confused Katana and Black Belt. I remember 3 code names, being Katana, Black Belt and Dural, and alwas confuse which was which.

It is indeed confusing. I got confused back then in 1997, and still do today for another reason, I now see on various websites including Wikipedia, that Dural was apparently another name for the SoA-designed, 3DFX-based Black Belt, and not what I thought I knew from what I had read back in 1997, that Dural was the early codename for the SoJ-designed PowerVR-based Katana/Dreamcast. I STILL don't know for sure if Dural was another name for Black Belt or if it was a name for Katana.


It's easier if we totally drop the Dural name, because that puts the most confusion into a conversation. I now find it best to remember 2 codenames, one each for the different machines: Black Belt and Katana. There's should be no confusion between those two. The Black Belt was killed, Katana was given the go-ahead to be the new system, and it was renamed Dreamcast. You can always see the Katana name on the Dreamcast motherboard, much like you see DOL (for Dolphin) on the GameCube motherboard.


I don't have time this evening to reply to the rest of your post, because I want to write a complete response so I will do that later tonight or tomorrow, and edit it in.




But the point is, I don´t think it can be clearly divided into different systems; I believe that knowledge collected in development for a system magazines called Saturn 2 could very well have been part of the early Katana-development. There were Katana and Blackbelt, but I do not believe in a completely seperate third console design was started before and then abandoned; a company does not just abandon a hardware. "Saturn 2" may have been altered beyond recognition since the rumors began, but I am sure it was just the beginning of the Dreamcast.
Calling a System Saturn 2, X-box 2, Gamecube 2 is a pure result of not having a real name for it since company has not yet given anything away. Maybe that very project was already called Katana internally. Who knows?
All that magazines could ever hope to get is bits and pieces, rumors. They won´t be handed an official sheet before a system is announced.

That was well thought-out and I could agree with what you are saying here, overall for the most part. Certainly there was not a fully or near-fully developed third or forth system earlier than Black Belt & Katana. Otherwise we would've heard more about it. All we know of are the very iffy rumors and some semi-credible reports about all the consoles and upgrades Sega was concidering or working on. Now, some of the rumors turned out to be true. At some point, the Katana was just a rumor in magazines & websites. Even though Katana was real, not everyone beleived it until the rumors of early-mid 1997 became solid information in late 1997/early1998 and then an official system announced just before E3 as Dreamcast in May 1998.




Basically what I want to say is that seperating systems in development by old rumors, no matter how widespread they were, is pointless in the end; we can never know for sure, all is absolutely speculative. I believe the most likely thing is that the GigaDrive ended up as the 32X while the Saturn 2 architecture ultimately evolved into Dreamcast.

I get what you're saying, and overall it makes sense. However it's pretty well known that the GigaDrive was in development at SoJ, so it couldn't have been the 32X, since the 32X was a seperate effort by SoA. I think GigaDrive ended up becoming Saturn because GigaDrive was SoJ's main next-gen hardware project of the early 90s.

As for Saturn 2, yes, it could very well be that the Saturn 2 mentioned in 1995 was the early work that became Katana/Dreamcast.

Sega did admit that SoA was working on a seperate system that used the Nvidia (NV2) chip.


Toshiyasu Morita: Was involved in two pieces of hardware which were never released: an SH3E+Nvidia combo which never went anywhere, and I was on the compiler/debugger guy for the SH4+3Dfx board.

The SH3E+Nvidia was that seperate system. The SH4+3Dfx board was Black Belt.
The Katana/Dreamcast was a third. Who knows, there could've easily have been others. So one could seperate certain reports/rumors of a 3rd or 4th console from Black Belt & Katana. Or, group them together with either Black Belt or Katana, kind of like how you said. It's debatable since we only have bits & pieces of info & rumors.

[Timstuff]

Another funny thing is how many consoles/add-ons/portables Sega had support for and under development 1994-5:

Game Gear
Pico
Mega Drive/Genesis (+Nomad)
Mega CD
32X
Saturn
Jupiter
Neptune
Saturn 2

... I bet they had some more they didn't tell us about!

Looking at that list, it's just as well that "Saturn 2" never saw the light of day, because Sega was already going through game systems like tissues.

[parallaxscroll]

I think Sega should have done something along the lines of, making the MegaCD/SegaCD. the only expansion-upgrade for the MegaDrive/Genesis. Absolutely no 32X, no 32-bit upgrade. The SegaCD gets extra 68000 CPUs, a much more powerful VDP and (either on VDP or seperate) scaling blitters, so its is on par with Sega's 'X Board' or 'Y Board' arcade hardware. This sounds expensive, but it wouldn't be for 1992. Less expensive than 32X of 1994. The focus is on arcade games and RPGs, not FMV games. SegaCD turns out to be a success in both Japan and the U.S. (and Europe). In Japan, it helps save the MegaDrive from failure and ends up helping Sega beat the PC-Engine family over there.


Saturn comes out in Japan in 1994 (Saturn was really successful) with 2D hardware using only a few chips maybe 3 or 4, not 8 or 9. Saturn does not come out in the U.S. Sega develops Saturn 2, or whatever you wanna call it, as a 3D machine with the help of Lockheed Martin. They take the 3-chip R3D/100 chipset and cost-reduce it into a single chip GPU (without downgrading performance). This gives 2 to 3 times the power of the MODEL 2 arcade board with more rendering features. The Saturn and Saturn 2 are combined into one console for the U.S. for fall 1996, in time to take on the Nintendo 64 and Panasonic M2. The Saturn 2 is released as an upgrade for the Japanese Saturn (addons can be successful in Japan, see PC-Engine Super CD-ROM) and its success is ensured with a good port of VF3. In the U.S. the 3D-capable Saturn launches with a really good 3D sonic game. Something far better than Sonic Xtreme could've ever been, and a tighter, faster game than Sonic Adventure. Daytona USA and Sega Rally are ported over with many upgrades (both in graphics and content) over the MODEL 2 versions. Phantasy Star V is also in development with the best possible 2D sprite & 3D polygon graphics, and a massive quest far larger than PSIV. Exix who almost decided to develop DQVII for Saturn in history, decides to make a 2D+3D DQ for Saturn that will run on the base Saturn in Japan, and take advantage of the Saturn 2 upgrade.

The next-gen system beyond Saturn (Saturn+Saturn 2 in Japan, Saturn in U.S.) is codenamed 'Enterprise'. Why Enterprise? a few reasons: The company's full corprate name is SEGA Enterprises, it is the name of an aircraft carrier, something of awesome military power that carries aircraft. Sega's newest console will be a carrier of great games. That's cooler than Dreamcast. (broadcasting dreams). Seeing the aircraft carrier in After Burner II, named 'SEGA Enterprise' on its deck, also gave me that idea. Maybe it keeps the codename for its official name, or it gets named 'NeoGenesis' in the U.S and maybe 'Saturn 3' in Japan, since Genesis is the name of the most successful Sega console in the U.S. while the Saturn name is carried over in Japan, being used for a 3rd time, since Saturn/Saturn2 are succuessful.

Enterprise/NeoGenesis/Saturn3 is slated for 2001, with new generation of PowerPC CPU (custom G4) and a GPU that is a joint effort between Lockheed & Nvidia that beats the Graphics Synthesizer in PS2 and Flipper in GameCube. Enterprise/NeoGenesis/Saturn3 is backward compatible with Genesis, SegaCD, and all Saturn 2D & 3D games. It has DVD, a 56K modem, and broadband/ethernet built in. It is marketed as the ultimate game/movie/internet machine and Sega has plenty of money to produce the consoles, market the console & games, and make games, because they haven't destroyed themselves in the previous generation, and also because Microsoft (software king) and Lockheed Martin (largest defense contractor in the world) are both backing it. So is NEC, Hitachi, IBM, Nvidia and others since they do not want Sony ruling the industry with PS2.

The Saturn family (Saturn/Saturn2) comes in 2nd place behind PlayStation but ahead of N64 and M2. Sega makes plenty of money in the same way that Nintendo did during the N64 & GameCube generations because Saturn makes a modest profit and arcades don't die so Sega has another revenue stream like Nintendo did with handhelds.

All this time Sega is keeping its hardware choices for consumers very simple, especially in the U.S. No Master System II, No GameGear. No Genesis 2. No SegaCD 2. No 32X. No CDX. No Neptune. Instead of the Nomad, there's a 'Genesis Express' with a good screen, is GBA-sized and lives a long life through the Saturn generation and into the Enterprise/NeoGenesis gen.

revisionist history - U.S. SEGA hardware releases

Master System - 1985
Genesis - 1989 - SegaCD - 1992
Genesis Express (handheld) - 1995
Saturn - 1996
NeoGenesis - 2001


revisionist history - Japanese SEGA hardware releases

Mark III - 1985
MegaDrive - 1988 - MegaCD - 1991
Saturn - 1994
Mega Express (handheld) - 1995
Saturn 2 - 1996
Enterprise/Saturn 3 - 2001





Anyway, that's just for fun. Clearly Sega had many chances to 'get things right' over the years. It's all water under the bridge now. None of this matters, it's the past. I do hope I live to see the day Sega makes some kind of comeback in the industry with a new system.

[Joe Redifer]

the MegaCD/SegaCD (now called GenesisCD in U.S.)

By whom? The product is called Sega CD. Unless someone has a time machine, this cannot be changed. Ever.

[parallaxscroll]

By whom? The product is called Sega CD. Unless someone has a time machine, this cannot be changed. Ever.


It was part of my revisionist history :p

The PC-Engine CD wasn't called NEC CD or Hudson CD was it ?

MegaCD was from MegaDrive, GenesisCD would be from Genesis..

[tomaitheous]

The GenesisCD gets extra 68000 CPUs, a much more powerful VDP and (either on VDP or seperate) scaling blitters, so its is on par with Sega's 'X Board' or 'Y Board' arcade hardware. This sounds expensive, but it wouldn't be for 1992. Less expensive than 32X of 1994.

That doesn't really make sense. If the 'GenesisCD' had these components, then there would no need for it to even attach to the Genesis in the first place. Attaching the Genesis wouldn't have anything to offer for it. The X and Y boards rivaled system32 and in some cases were even more flexible (source: Charles Macdonald).

I'd tone it back to something like: GenesisCD gets 16mhz 68k, 1024k of ram shared for 68k/ASIC, ASIC is setup for byte size pixels(256color) instead of nibble pixels(16color), a strictly frame buffer only VDP like in the 32x (the ASIC would render scaled sprites and such to the VDP's off screen buffer) - this is a low cost device and priority layering would be much more simple compared to the 32x version. You still need the Genesis' VDP for additional layers/planes and such. The memory on the GenesisCD should be interleaved so that the ASIC can grab two 16bit fetchs at once (32bit fetch for up to 4 pixels at once) thus no need for a speed increase and working with bytes instead of nibbles would reduce internal complexity for doing rotation 'fetches' and whatnot. Hell I'd also go as far as to reuse the EOL marker that the system16/23/X/Y boards used to speed up fill rate on sprites, on the ASIC. You loose one color, but you save some space and save cycles/increase fill rate.

[parallaxscroll]

That doesn't really make sense. If the 'GenesisCD' had these components, then there would no need for it to even attach to the Genesis in the first place. Attaching the Genesis wouldn't have anything to offer for it. The X and Y boards rivaled system32 and in some cases were even more flexible (source: Charles Macdonald).

I'd tone it back to something like: GenesisCD gets 16mhz 68k, 1024k of ram shared for 68k/ASIC, ASIC is setup for byte size pixels(256color) instead of nibble pixels(16color), a strictly frame buffer only VDP like in the 32x (the ASIC would render scaled sprites and such to the VDP's off screen buffer) - this is a low cost device and priority layering would be much more simple compared to the 32x version. You still need the Genesis' VDP for additional layers/planes and such. The memory on the GenesisCD should be interleaved so that the ASIC can grab two 16bit fetchs at once (32bit fetch for up to 4 pixels at once) thus no need for a speed increase and working with bytes instead of nibbles would reduce internal complexity for doing rotation 'fetches' and whatnot. Hell I'd also go as far as to reuse the EOL marker that the system16/23/X/Y boards used to speed up fill rate on sprites, on the ASIC. You loose one color, but you save some space and save cycles/increase fill rate.

I'd be okay with that,sounds fine. Some of that stuff is beyond my understanding, but I get the heart of what you're saying. Make the MegaCD/SegaCD/GenesisCD hardware something that's powerful, simple and cost effective. As long as the focus of the games is on arcade ports & newly created RPGs instead of FMV games, and everything it takes so it doesn't bomb, that's what matters most. What happened in the real history of things, Sega actually sold quite a few SegaCD units in the U.S.
Imagine if their overall strategy (hardware, software, marketing, price), had been better, it could've been a true success.

Then as long as the U.S. (and UK & Euro) Saturn contains the best possible CPU & 3D GPU hardware in one console (PowerPC 603e + Real3D/100) Sega would have a decent shot at 2nd place for that generation and could've sold maybe 20-30M systems worldwide and 10-15M in the U.S. (in real life Saturn sold 9.5M worldwide) helping to make sure Sega is on a good footing for the next generation.

[Joe Redifer]

It was part of my revisionist history :p

The PC-Engine CD wasn't called NEC CD or Hudson CD was it ?

MegaCD was from MegaDrive, GenesisCD would be from Genesis..

The actual PRODUCT NAME was Sega CD, so I see no logic trying to call it something else. It makes no sense. What other systems are called is irrelevant. Calling it the "GenesisCD" makes is confusing since it is not called that.

[parallaxscroll]

If you feel that strongly about it, we can just call it SegaCD (and MegaCD for Japan) as it was. I edited the name in my main post on the subject. What's more important of course, is the technology in SegaCD, the kind of games made for it, the price, and overall strategy for the expansion-upgrade to offer better, larger games on CD-ROM than what was possible on the base MD/Genesis.

[Joe Redifer]

Sega CD had a 12Mhz 68000, not 16Mhz. The power plants powering our homes at the time could not handle all of the power that a 16Mhz 68000 would require, and many black outs were caused when the Sega CD was released even with its wimpy 12Mhz CPU because even that required too much power. Way too much awesome for one household.

Anyway, the Sega CD could only rotate and scale at around 15-20 frames per second, maximum. Since these were all drawn as Genesis background tiles, there was no flicker in the scaled/rotated objects... ever.

[tomaitheous]

Joe: Stop trying to inject reality into this rewriting of history :p

Parallaxscroll: That's how I'd build the CD base unit. It didn't need 16mhz version, but I added it in for fun. And why not - 16mhz for 1992 wasn't a big deal for 68k's or other processors.

I have to admit though, SegaCD rolls off the tongue a bit better.

[parallaxscroll]

Found a website i remember reading years ago about 4 graphics processor choices from 3 providers that Sega had for Black Belt/Dural/Dreamcast

1, 2) Lockheed Martin Real3D/100, Real3D/Intel i740
3) 3DFX Banshee
4) NEC/PowerVR Second Generation

http://underworld.fortunecity.com/sonic/100/gp.htm

Among other things, they source EDGE's 1995 article on Lockheed Martin.


I'd say that both Real3D/100 (95-96 tech) and the much weaker Real3D/Intel i740 (97-98 tech) would've been too old, too underpowered for the Dreamcast of 98/99. The 3Dfx Banshee would be also. The PowerVR Second Generation (aka Series 2) and more specifically the custom PowerVR2DC / CLX2 variant, was the strongest chip in both rendering speed & rendering features. It was the best choice of the consumer 3D chips that would be ready in late 1998 when DC launched in Japan. That was the reality of the situation.

In my made up world of 'better everything', Sega & Lockheed would've made both a next-gen console and a MODEL4 arcade board. The next-gen console would push about 16-20M full-featured polys/sec and have pixel fillrate of 1 to 1.2 Gpixels/sec using a new 'Real3D/500' GPU. It would be about 30% or 1/3 as powerful as the new arcade board, but much more powerful than MODEL3. The MODEL4 would again be a multi-GPU board like MODEL3. It would be capable of about 50~60M polys/sec with 2x 'Real3D/5000' GPUs. The CPU would be a custom G4 with AltiVec running at 450 to 500 MHz. Main system memory would be 48 MB SDRAM on a 64-bit bus, and graphics memory would be 48 MB DDR on a wider 128-bit bus (the GPU needs the extra bandwidth). The audio would be pretty much the same chip that was in Dreamcast but with 8 MB DRAM. The optical disk could be either a 32x CD-ROM (cheap) or a 6x DVD-ROM (more expensive), but the main format for game media would be a much faster solid-state or magnetic disc/disc drive so that loading times can rival that of arcade machines. The downside would be smaller capacity (250 ~ 500 MB). There would also be a 10-12 GB hard disc drive. This machine is capable of doing most things a PC/MAC could do, including downloading music, video, web browsing, file sharing, basic productivity software. Japan is a key market for these non-gaming applications since most of their population do not own PCs.

Price: $1500, (one thousand five hundred dollars) LMAO :p