Capcom and Sega

[zetastrike]

I've always wondered why Capcom did almost nothing for the Genesis, then was a loyal supporter for the Saturn and Dreamcast until the bitter end for both. Did they ever actually make a Genesis game themselves, or did they have independent developers make them? What's also weird is that, while they were gung-ho with the SNES, they pretty much ignored the N64. What's up with all that?

[tomaitheous]

It's not that Capcom 'loved' the NES and SNES, it's that they hated the Genesis. It was nothing against Sega, it was just the Genesis. You can even see some hidden text in SNES roms indicating so <_<;

[Tanegashima]

Capcom was outraged by Sony and purposefully went to the Saturn. Sony had demanded 3D ONLY games for its first few years/months and turned capcom away when Mega Man 8/X4 and all the street fighter games were getting ready. Capcom was even more angry when Mega Man 8 was to be a Saturn exclusive but Sony threatened to sue claiming it would give the Saturn an unfair advantage. This further enraged Capcom which is why they so supported the Saturn and gave lackluster ports to the Playstation.

My guess regarding the Genesis is that Nintendo had Capcom by the balls...

[zetastrike]

That's what I hate about Sony. They discourage 2D games. They always have. I blame them for people my around my age (17) hating 2D games soley because they're not 3D. I'm the only person I know who's a classic gamer. My friends always make fun of my love of old 2D games for Genny, SNES, and such. Mega Man 8 and X4 are actually my favorite PSone games ever, but the Saturn versions are still better.

[MrMatthews]

Ironically, one of the best games on the PSOne was a 2D side-scroller

[Kollision]

don't mean to derail this thread but...
3d sucks

[JDB]

Ironically, one of the best games on the PSOne was a 2D side-scroller

Vib-Ribbon?

[MrMatthews]

Castlevania: SOTN

[Iron Lizard]

Their are more 2d games on that system then I once thought. I always was a Saturn kid so I ignored the Ps1 for the most part but I missed out on a few 2d games that I am only now learning existed.

[MrMatthews]

Castlevania
Mega Man 8
Mega Man X4, 5, and 6

. . . I'm out

[Iron Lizard]

Silhouette Mirage?

[MrMatthews]

*shrugs*

The PSX library was so huge, my knowledge of it only scratches the surface. Those are the only games I know about

[Aarzak]

I've always wondered why Capcom did almost nothing for the Genesis, then was a loyal supporter for the Saturn and Dreamcast until the bitter end for both. Did they ever actually make a Genesis game themselves, or did they have independent developers make them? What's also weird is that, while they were gung-ho with the SNES, they pretty much ignored the N64. What's up with all that?

Capcom was drunk off Nintendo's kool-aid during the NES & later SNES era; they were amongst the handful of staunch Nintendo loyalists who rarely if ever showed any love to Sega or other consoles (others include Square, Enix and to a lesser extent Konami). If anything Capcom collaborated with Sega during these days to extend their cash-cow "Street Fighter II" to the huge overseas Genesis install base; otherwise they released stuff of little value for the Genesis.

All of the aforementioned developers were turned off by the announcement that the N64 was going to be cart-based, and at the same time were enticed by Sega & Sony's technology which they jumped on board of, leaving the N64 mostly high & dry.

While Capcom flexed their 2D muscle and TLC with their Saturn software, the bulk of their software and efforts during the 32-Bit era, as well as their biggest hits were released on the PS1. But beginning with the Saturn, Sega & Capcom began getting along well. I bet they would've gotten along even earlier if not due to Nintendo's dictatorship and, possibly as tomatheous alluded, the fact that they didn't like the Genesis hardware........which was quite similar to their CPS1 hardware.

[sega fan]

That's what I hate about Sony. They discourage 2D games. They always have. I blame them for people my around my age (17) hating 2D games soley because they're not 3D. I'm the only person I know who's a classic gamer. My friends always make fun of my love of old 2D games for Genny, SNES, and such. Mega Man 8 and X4 are actually my favorite PSone games ever, but the Saturn versions are still better.

That may be true, but they let big name franchises remain 2-d, ala Symphony of The Night, but once again, only already existing franchises could have 2-d sequals. It was sort of a blanket ban but some could slide through.

[Rusty Venture]

I like Capcom for "Power Stone 2", but "Mega Man: Wily Wars" has always puzzled me.

Why would they fuck up their own game? You through the trouble to make the game and then you don't do it to your usual high standards. Or, in the case of here in the US, you don't even bother to release the game at all.

I should have known something was funky with Capcom when I played "Mega Man 4" and concluded it was mediocre compared to the previous 3.

[16-bit]

It's not that Capcom 'loved' the NES and SNES, it's that they hated the Genesis. It was nothing against Sega, it was just the Genesis. You can even see some hidden text in SNES roms indicating so <_<;

Just out of curiosity, is there a site where I can see these hidden texts? If not can you give me an example?

[jesus.arnold]

Dunno, I always just took it as though Capcom weren't sure whether the Master System or Mega Drive were viable markets at the time (the Master System definately wasn't seeing as Nintendo's Licencing meant Capcom could only release games on one console or the other and the NES was so strong they were pretty much forced to sign up to it)

I always thought that Capcom were probably one of the companies that had grown to hate Nintendo's business practices but felt like that had no choice, and as soon as they saw that Sega machines could be viable they jumped ship, I mean, even before the Saturn days, weren't they trying to get around Nintendo's exclusivity deals and stuff? I remember hearing somewhere that Street Fighter 2 was supposed to be exclusive for the SNES but Capcom just changed the name and game around a bit so they could release a much needed-to-stay-competitive Genesis version.

This is all conjecture though so i'm probably talking nonsence again :)

[Aarzak]

In early 1993, Capcom announced that they would be officially developing for the Genesis; specifically inking a deal with Sega to port over "Street Fighter II: Champion Edition". Nintendo countered by getting Capcom to port over the superior and then-new "Street Fighter II Turbo: Hyper Fighting". Sega countered by getting Capcom to to include all of the "Turbo" features in their Genesis SFII port, which was renamed "Street Fighter II: Special Champion Edition", (due to Nintendo having exclusivity rights to the name "Street Fighter II Turbo") In the end, both games were essentially similar give or take a couple of things, (hell SCE was a downgraded port of SNES Turbo pretty much).

Nintendo won that battle, as 4+million copies of SNES SFIIT were sold worldwide to 1+million copies of Genesis SCE worldwide.

[tomaitheous]

Just out of curiosity, is there a site where I can see these hidden texts? If not can you give me an example?

Sorry, I was being facetious:p

[Rusty Venture]

But there is a hidden ending screen in the Genesis version where all the Capcom exces are giving you the bird.

I have long since lost the link to the picture.

[TheEdge]

That's what I hate about Sony. They discourage 2D games. They always have. I blame them for people my around my age (17) hating 2D games soley because they're not 3D. I'm the only person I know who's a classic gamer. My friends always make fun of my love of old 2D games for Genny, SNES, and such. Mega Man 8 and X4 are actually my favorite PSone games ever, but the Saturn versions are still better.

This is true. There should be a nice balance of 2D and 3D games. Its good to have variety in the dimensions.

[Zebbe]

While the Sega-programmed Capcom games on the Mega Drive are great, I only enjoy Mega Man: The Wily Wars of those Capcom produced themselves, and to a small extent the SFII games (although the ports are so piss-poor demented people could do better). However, Capcom were only in third place in having their tongue furthest up in Hiroshi Yamauchi's ass back then. Enix and Square shared the first place, and Konami were fourth. On the other hand, Sega had the far superior Treasure and Tecnosoft, among others.

[sheath]

I thought this thread's subject matter was apt for something Keiji Inafune just revealed about Capcom's internal policy (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2011-05-09-kejii-inafune-reveals-capcom-insider-gossip). Apparently he had to oppose management to get Dead Space and Lost Planet made, the upper management policy was to deny any requests for new games. While the article says that this was towards the end of the "Playstation 2 era", I noticed the policy way back in the NES days. Relevant to this thread, I think the old Sega was well known for making new games in large quantities. In Yu Suzuki's interview with 1up.com (http://www.1up.com/do/minisite?cId=3182644), he revealed that Sega stopped approving new games after the Dreamcast was shuttered. Which was why he ultimately left the company.

What was it about the Playstation 2 era that caused most companies to go conservative? I watched the games as they came out, and for the most part all of the games that interested me were rated poorly (or blasted) in reviews and flopped at retail. It seemed like most of the complaints centered not on the games being too "new" but on the control schemes and cut scene quality.

Did people just get sick of playing games for gameplay's sake? Did the push to become bigger and better than Hollywood change people expectations too much?

[gamegenie]

the only CAPCOM game I have for SEGA's 16-bit is Street Fighter II SCE and Final Fight CD,

and Mega Man on Game Gear is pretty damn solid. Better than the competition may I add, i.e. GameBoy.

[zetastrike]

Wow, one of my first threads has been bumped. I always thought Capcom's attitude was that they didn't want to "waste their time" with the Genesis because they knew no matter what they made, it wouldn't sell that well in Japan. What happens in Japan seems to be a lot of developers' first priority. They probably didn't want to piss off Nintendo either.

[youloute]

the only CAPCOM game I have for SEGA's 16-bit is Street Fighter II SCE and Final Fight CD,

and Mega Man on Game Gear is pretty damn solid. Better than the competition may I add, i.e. GameBoy.
As for Strider and Ghouls and Ghosts on Genesis, Final Fight CD was developed by Sega.
Capcom said it was interested by Mega Drive since March-April 92 but I don't know when it decided to develop on it.
4 Capcom games were released on Mega Drive:
_Street fighter 2'
_Super street fighter 2
_Megaman world
_Mickey & Minnie Magical Adventure 2
http://www.jap-sai.com/Games/Capcom/Capcom.htm#MD

On Mega-CD, Capcom No quiz was developed and published by SIMS.

[Baloo]

As for Strider and Ghouls and Ghosts on Genesis, Final Fight CD was developed by Sega.
Capcom said it was interested by Mega Drive since March-April 92 but I don't know when it decided to develop on it.
4 Capcom games were released on Mega Drive:
_Street fighter 2'
_Super street fighter 2
_Megaman world
_Mickey & Minnie Magical Adventure 2
http://www.jap-sai.com/Games/Capcom/Capcom.htm#MD

On Mega-CD, Capcom No quiz was developed and published by SIMS.

You forgot The Punisher, but that game wasn't developed by Capcom, merely published.

[Aarzak]

You forgot The Punisher, but that game wasn't developed by Capcom, merely published.

And "Saturday Night Slam Masters", which was worked on by Yoshinori Ono, the producer behind the SFIV games, back when he was a lowly jabroni at Capcom. Slam Masters I believe was the last Capcom-developed Genesis game, with "The Punisher" being the last Capcom game PERIOD on the console.

[youloute]

I guess I'm tired. I didn't know The Punisher was released on Mega Drive.
According to Guardiana, there isn't any japanese version of these 2 games.

[sheath]

I have seen both running on the system, and own the Punisher, it is a very good Arcade conversion for the Genesis.

[kool kitty89]

Capcom was outraged by Sony and purposefully went to the Saturn. Sony had demanded 3D ONLY games for its first few years/months and turned capcom away when Mega Man 8/X4 and all the street fighter games were getting ready. Capcom was even more angry when Mega Man 8 was to be a Saturn exclusive but Sony threatened to sue claiming it would give the Saturn an unfair advantage. This further enraged Capcom which is why they so supported the Saturn and gave lackluster ports to the Playstation.

My guess regarding the Genesis is that Nintendo had Capcom by the balls...
Huh, I hadn't realized Sony pushed that hard in Japan from day 1 as well. (I thought they were pushing 3D hard, but not so much actively discouraging 3D until the US launch plans/management were really getting going)

It made a lot of sense to put an emphasis on 3D (and multimedia), but actively discouraging developers from bringing more games to the platform (2D or 3D) doesn't make much sense from a business perspective. (niche market or not -which it wasn't in 1994/95, let alone in Japan- that's no reason to discourage it -aside from actual 1st/2nd party developers that Sony was directly investing in)





It's not that Capcom 'loved' the NES and SNES, it's that they hated the Genesis. It was nothing against Sega, it was just the Genesis. You can even see some hidden text in SNES roms indicating so <_<;
Aside from the sarcasm, was there really any reason for Capcom to dislike the Genesis?

Their work on the System wasn't bad, but it was late in coming and not especially amazing either (good in some areas, lacking in others), but not really inconsistent with the SNES end of things either. (they definitely seemed consistent about putting graphics -even subtle animation and detail that many wouldn't notice easily- over audio quality -a problem with both the SNES and MD SFII conversions, and one that got worse with sequels)
The exception would be the voices/FX in the PCE version of SFII.

I can't help but thinking Sega (and some 2nd/3rd parties they often outsourced to) could have done better jobs of many Capcom games on the MD (including SFII) if they'd continued primarily licensed development of Capcom games. (as with GnG, Final Fight, etc)
I actually wonder if Sega had started work (or done considerable work) on their own SFII conversion before Capcom actually signed on as a licensed publisher with Sega. (in particular, there's that somewhat mysterious SFII Beta that uses an older in-house Sega Sound engine, but doesn't mention Capcom licensing or programming one way or the other -ie "reprogrammed by" or such)
It would be really interesting to find out who developed that (nearly complete) 2MB beta version of SFII on the MD, and when. (lacking some details of SCE, but for 2 MB, it's pretty nice in general -different trade-offs than WW on the SNES, but overall better IMO)

[CRV]

It would be really interesting to find out who developed that (nearly complete) 2MB beta version of SFII on the MD, and when. (lacking some details of SCE, but for 2 MB, it's pretty nice in general -different trade-offs than WW on the SNES, but overall better IMO)

There are some names in the ROM, not they're of much help at this time:


T.NagawaS.MizutaniY.UmakosiA.Watanabe

[Da_Shocker]

You guys need to get over this Sony was hellbend on not allowing 2D games when that simply isn't true. You aren't anti-2D and get an exclusive to release MK3. Now they clearly had a preference of 3D games over 2D games and that's about it.

[GeckoYamori]

It was Sony in the US who pushed the anti-2D agenda.

[Zebbe]

It's not that Capcom 'loved' the NES and SNES, it's that they hated the Genesis. It was nothing against Sega, it was just the Genesis. You can even see some hidden text in SNES roms indicating so <_<;

Can you share some quotes?

[Thenewguy]

You guys need to get over this Sony was hellbend on not allowing 2D games when that simply isn't true. You aren't anti-2D and get an exclusive to release MK3. Now they clearly had a preference of 3D games over 2D games and that's about it.Thing is, the "anti 2D" thing is widely sourced and quoted by different magazines and developers of the time, so there was definitely something going on, but I think its been overstated, I think Sony wanted games which showed off the system impressively more than anything else, and didn't want anything which looked "last gen" or dated, they seemed to want to distance themselves from Interactive movies right off the bat too.

The Capcom/Sony problems are widely written of in the press, and off the top of my head there's the interview with the people who made Worms who said they were initialy refused permission to release the game with "No, the policy is 3D games only"

[sheath]

Tom hasn't posted here since March 5th. He was complaining about a fever, I hope he's okay, somebody should try to hunt him down if anybody knows him.

[Black_Tiger]

The way that I understood it, going by various sources over the years, was that Sony didn't ban 2D so much as value it less and encouraged publishers to make any 2D releases special (added or exclusive content, etc) if they weren't noteworthy in the first place. Mortal Kombat obviously was welcomed because it was a major brand.

Some developers basically said that Sony only approved so many 2D games proportionate to the number of 3D games so that they were a clear minority. It's not nearly the same as banning them outright, which obviously didn't happen. But by all accounts it was easier to get a 2D game approved if you were a big company.

[Da_Shocker]

But what is so odd about all of this is that Sega didnt even capitalize on this. But then again these 3rd parties had there head so far up Sony's ass they could'nt think right.

[youloute]

I don't believe Sony banned 2D since it published itself a few 2D games such as Rapid reload/Gunners heaven (run and gun), Mickey's Wild Adventure (= Mickey Mania)...

[gamegenie]

I think the buzz in the mid 90s, 32-bit gen launch was that there was need for some form of visual change in gaming that would make the new generation consoles stand out from their 16-bit predecessors.

Since the 16-bits mostly consisted of 2D gaming, the alternative was to show how 32-bit could make current gaming better. 32-bit 2D games was obviously not enough to sell 32-bit to gamers so the other visual genres of gaming was full motion video, Virtual Reality, and 3D.

The early 32-bit systems: 3DO, Jaguar, Jaguar CD, 32X, SEGA CD+32X, and Virtual Boy all tried to take advantage of the visual genres on their game releases. Atari published 2D, 3D, FMV, and even promoted their development of the Jaguar VR that would have been an accessory to the Jag.

Well this clutter of choices for next gen didn't win them over in sales. Gamers still stuck to 2D and 16-bit gaming.

The 2nd wave of the 32-bit gen (Saturn, PlayStation, and N64) decided the best way to promote 32-bit gen power would be to put focus behind one visual genre of gaming, and thus the focused of 32-bit gaming began centering primarily on 3D games. Regulating 2D game for the old past 16-bit gen of gaming, and FMV and VR as tried but failed gaming innovating ventures.

So that is how I look back at the 32-bit gen, and despite Saturn coming out of the gate first as the 2nd wave of 32-bit generation gaming, SEGA secretly did an about face in pushing hard for 3D only after they saw what SONY had planning for the PSX, thus the Saturn was built more favoring 2D gaming than 3D.

and CAPCOM just used both companies as a channel to push it's 2D and 3D games, to which ever platform that benefited it. CAPCOM 2D games -> Saturn, CAPCOM 3D game -> PlayStation.

When CAPCOM saw the possibility to make more for a game if selling it on a competitive console, they just ported one game for a system over to the other system.

[Zebbe]

I guess I'm tired. I didn't know The Punisher was released on Mega Drive.
According to Guardiana, there isn't any japanese version of these 2 games.

Maybe there are European versions... :huh:

[evilevoix]

It's not that Capcom 'loved' the NES and SNES, it's that they hated the Genesis. It was nothing against Sega, it was just the Genesis. You can even see some hidden text in SNES roms indicating so <_<;

Details on this please? Mega man is on the system.

[youloute]

Maybe there are European versions... :huh:
Yes, that's what I mean. Both games were released in North America and in Europe but not in Japan, which is strange for Capcom games. On the other hand, that makes sense since the Mega Drive was almost dead in Japan when these games were finished.

[soop]

Huh, I hadn't realized Sony pushed that hard in Japan from day 1 as well. (I thought they were pushing 3D hard, but not so much actively discouraging 3D until the US launch plans/management were really getting going)

It made a lot of sense to put an emphasis on 3D (and multimedia), but actively discouraging developers from bringing more games to the platform (2D or 3D) doesn't make much sense from a business perspective. (niche market or not -which it wasn't in 1994/95, let alone in Japan- that's no reason to discourage it -aside from actual 1st/2nd party developers that Sony was directly investing in)





Aside from the sarcasm, was there really any reason for Capcom to dislike the Genesis?

Their work on the System wasn't bad, but it was late in coming and not especially amazing either (good in some areas, lacking in others), but not really inconsistent with the SNES end of things either. (they definitely seemed consistent about putting graphics -even subtle animation and detail that many wouldn't notice easily- over audio quality -a problem with both the SNES and MD SFII conversions, and one that got worse with sequels)
The exception would be the voices/FX in the PCE version of SFII.


Capcom didn't actually program that. IIRC it was NEC Avenue.

[sheath]

Capcom didn't actually program that. IIRC it was NEC Avenue.

Hmm, I hadn't noticed that my box says "Licensed to NEC Home Electronics LTD." on the back. Capcom gave them a lot of help I'd think, or at least the SNES source material, to get the game the way it was. It looks like a SNES port anyway, I can't think of any other reason for the sprite sizes/animations, background colors, and screen resolution to be so similar.

[soop]

Hmm, I hadn't noticed that my box says "Licensed to NEC Home Electronics LTD." on the back. Capcom gave them a lot of help I'd think, or at least the SNES source material, to get the game the way it was. It looks like a SNES port anyway, I can't think of any other reason for the sprite sizes/animations, background colors, and screen resolution to be so similar.

Indeed, it's the one instance I can think of that Capcom has let ANYONE near the source for SFII. I remember some lesser conversions being really shitty thanks to absolutely no access to data. Memorably the Amiga version.

[agostinhobaroners]

Capcom was drunk off Nintendo's kool-aid during the NES & later SNES era; they were amongst the handful of staunch Nintendo loyalists who rarely if ever showed any love to Sega or other consoles (others include Square, Enix and to a lesser extent Konami). If anything Capcom collaborated with Sega during these days to extend their cash-cow "Street Fighter II" to the huge overseas Genesis install base; otherwise they released stuff of little value for the Genesis.

All of the aforementioned developers were turned off by the announcement that the N64 was going to be cart-based, and at the same time were enticed by Sega & Sony's technology which they jumped on board of, leaving the N64 mostly high & dry.

While Capcom flexed their 2D muscle and TLC with their Saturn software, the bulk of their software and efforts during the 32-Bit era, as well as their biggest hits were released on the PS1. But beginning with the Saturn, Sega & Capcom began getting along well. I bet they would've gotten along even earlier if not due to Nintendo's dictatorship and, possibly as tomatheous alluded, the fact that they didn't like the Genesis hardware........which was quite similar to their CPS1 hardware.

It's more than 2 years old, but...
The hardware of Genesis is similar to CPS1, but a lot more difficult to program (to program well...). The color palette limitation + sound timer via software are a pain in the... If you compare, port to Genesis was more difficult than to SNES (Color palette easier to handle, sound system acting like a playback system). You can argue about the differences between the assembly codes, which should help Genesis... But I don't think that it was much of a problem for programmers experienced with NES. So, should be a lot easier to convert the assembly code between two well-known architectures by the Capcom programmers than to deal with the "strange" color palette and sound limitations of Genesis.

[GeckoYamori]

Indeed, it's the one instance I can think of that Capcom has let ANYONE near the source for SFII. I remember some lesser conversions being really shitty thanks to absolutely no access to data. Memorably the Amiga version.

The story of the Amiga version is pretty hilarious. They were given absolutely zero resources to work with from Capcom. So for the graphics they had to go into an arcade after it had closed for the day, then take photos of all the backgrounds and characters frame by frame, scan them back into a computer and touch them up.

[Da_Shocker]

That's terrible

O8biwhjXvjo

[soop]

The story of the Amiga version is pretty hilarious. They were given absolutely zero resources to work with from Capcom. So for the graphics they had to go into an arcade after it had closed for the day, then take photos of all the backgrounds and characters frame by frame, scan them back into a computer and touch them up.

God that's terrible. Pity they didn't get any time to play the thing, they'd have realised that Ryu's dragon punch doesn't just go straight up.

[youloute]

The SFX are very similar to the original games, unlike the music. Strange... And it seems impossible to make combos.

Edit: the developers, Creative materials, also made Final Fight on Amiga. I remember the Atari ST version of this game, the scrolling was horrible. To bad there isn't any video of this game on youtube.

[Crackdown]

I have the ST version tell me about it!!!!

I do remember though that it was one of a few games to have extra features if played on an STE. It used to come up STE Enhanced or something like that and it fixed the scrolling and also had sound effects as well as music IIRC. Still a very impressive conversion though IMO.

[agostinhobaroners]

That's terrible

O8biwhjXvjo

My eyes are bleeding right now! :(

[youloute]

I have the ST version tell me about it!!!!

I do remember though that it was one of a few games to have extra features if played on an STE. It used to come up STE Enhanced or something like that and it fixed the scrolling and also had sound effects as well as music IIRC. Still a very impressive conversion though IMO.
Ok, so I guess I played a bad cracked version since there was only one music. And the flowing of the scrolling was like the pieces of Tetris in level 0 or 1. But I remember the intro was the same as the Amiga version I've seen on Youtube.

[Silanda]

The story of the Amiga version is pretty hilarious. They were given absolutely zero resources to work with from Capcom. So for the graphics they had to go into an arcade after it had closed for the day, then take photos of all the backgrounds and characters frame by frame, scan them back into a computer and touch them up.

That was a pretty typical story sadly, and IIRC the situation was still pretty similar when SSF2T came out on the PC. Virtually none of the arcade producers gave a crap about the western home computer market so rarely gave much access to resources and certainly not the source code. Even western companies like Atari were the same. In retrospect it seems idiotic to care so little about games that bear your name but that was just the industry back then.

[Thenewguy]

I'm sure I read an interview with Dave Perry once where he said that he had to port Smash TV based on his memory of playing the game whilst on holiday, as there was no access to resources, and company he was working for wouldn't provide an arcade cabinet of the game for him either :lol:

[Da_Shocker]

R9HhIy59VXs

The intro music is just terrible. It sounds like a horror movie.
Lumpytoast 1 year ago 13

That about cracked me the fuck up.

[sheath]

Ugh, I wish Youtube would either automatically fix videos that have the sprite flickering effects ruined or remove them permanently.

[kool kitty89]

You guys need to get over this Sony was hellbend on not allowing 2D games when that simply isn't true. You aren't anti-2D and get an exclusive to release MK3. Now they clearly had a preference of 3D games over 2D games and that's about it.
Yeah, and MK3 would obviously be a western-specific title to push. ;)

I think it may have been "super pro 3D" and not "anti 2D" . . . maybe something like Sony not investing into any 2D stuff and leaving all marketing/distribution/packaging to 3rd parties. (with a few special exceptions)

It made sense, after all 3D was new and fresh for most people (and even for those well versed in 3D games on PC, it was a pretty big jump to what you got in the mid/late 90s -on consoles and PC), pushing 2D more might have had some merit, but may also have just wasted funds. (ie either not made money, or made less money than the same spending put all towards 3D . . . well, 3D and multimedia, you can't ignore the massive push for FMV/multimedia on the PSX -a lot on Saturn for that matter, not to mention PC ;))




It was Sony in the US who pushed the anti-2D agenda.
MK3 is obviously a western-specific counter-example. And again, exactly what they did to push against 2D seems unclear. (promoting 3D heavily as the "next big thing" hardly proves that as the market had already been going in that direction and it made sense . . . things like actively refusing to license 3rd party 2D games and not allow them to be published would be real anti-2D ;) -being super Pro 3D is not the same as anti 2D, and that could include giving special positive treatment towards developers pushing 3D harder -not to mention focusing in-hosue spending on developing 3D games- so the carrot for 3D, but not the stick for 2D -unless anyone has specific examples of Sony refusing to allow 2D games to be published by 3rd parties)




Thing is, the "anti 2D" thing is widely sourced and quoted by different magazines and developers of the time, so there was definitely something going on, but I think its been overstated, I think Sony wanted games which showed off the system impressively more than anything else, and didn't want anything which looked "last gen" or dated, they seemed to want to distance themselves from Interactive movies right off the bat too.

The Capcom/Sony problems are widely written of in the press, and off the top of my head there's the interview with the people who made Worms who said they were initialy refused permission to release the game with "No, the policy is 3D games only"
So Sony actively refused to allow 3rd parties to publish 2D games??? (that seems to conflict with actual games released in the US at the time . . . though maybe those were special cases)

Again, if it was more of a case where Sony gave extras to 3D games (added funds/resources for advertising, production, distribution, etc), but not allowing 3rd parties to put their own money down and do all their own manufacturing/marketing/distribution is another matter altogether. (and manufacturing CD based games wouldn't be that big of a deal, especially for companies already producing their own carts)

If anyone has actual information on Sony actively treating 2D like it was unsuitable content (as they might for excessively violent/sexual/etc themes in games), then I'll agree that they truly were anti-2D, and actually well beyond the normal market consensus. ;)


Tom hasn't posted here since March 5th. He was complaining about a fever, I hope he's okay, somebody should try to hunt him down if anybody knows him.
I think he's fine; he's been rather active on Atariage:
http://www.atariage.com/forums/user/20854-malducci/






The way that I understood it, going by various sources over the years, was that Sony didn't ban 2D so much as value it less and encouraged publishers to make any 2D releases special (added or exclusive content, etc) if they weren't noteworthy in the first place. Mortal Kombat obviously was welcomed because it was a major brand.

Some developers basically said that Sony only approved so many 2D games proportionate to the number of 3D games so that they were a clear minority. It's not nearly the same as banning them outright, which obviously didn't happen. But by all accounts it was easier to get a 2D game approved if you were a big company.
It makes sense too that they'd push that . . . and multimedia as they were the biggest things to show off the system and were what people really wanted. (there was niche 2D demand to cater to too, but not putting 3D and multimedia content as the number 1 priority would have been folly -perhaps being moderately less extreme would have been OK, but actually favoring 2D would have been crazy from a business perspective at the time :p )


Pushing that edge would have been most important for the first couple years (as the generation built to to mass market establishment), but, of course, by the time that early definitive push was no longer necessary, 2D was even more nich altogether. (in part due to marketing feeding into the existing 3D shift and accelerating it . . . I think NewGuy mentioned actual ridicule towards those still playing 2D games, though I guess that would sort of be similar to those getting ridiculed over playing 8-bit games in the middle of the "16-bit" era -though I never experienced that at all; most of my friends were still very active on the NES into the mid/late 90s, and SNES into the early 2000s)



But what is so odd about all of this is that Sega didnt even capitalize on this. But then again these 3rd parties had there head so far up Sony's ass they could'nt think right.
You could argue they might have been able to take some advantage there, they more likely would have ended up a bigger laughing stock and wasted more funds that should have gone towards 3D. (albeit, there were a few niche 2D generes that were more acceptable than others -especially "2.5D" stuff)

As for 3rd parties no, up through 1996 (perhaps partially into 1997), Sega still had some good 3rd party support overall in spite of some of their own mistakes that compromised that. (their many other problems masked that though, and their mismatched 1st party games as well -especially compared with Sony's exclusive 1st/2nd/3rd party support)









The early 32-bit systems: 3DO, Jaguar, Jaguar CD, 32X, SEGA CD+32X, and Virtual Boy all tried to take advantage of the visual genres on their game releases. Atari published 2D, 3D, FMV, and even promoted their development of the Jaguar VR that would have been an accessory to the Jag.

Well this clutter of choices for next gen didn't win them over in sales. Gamers still stuck to 2D and 16-bit gaming.
That hardly had to do with the genres being pushed . . . and not even the software so much in general, but fundamental business/management positions and decisions. (3DO used a totally wrong market model that made it non-competitive; Atari was in no shape to launch any major new product and had persisting management problems on top of that -they were very lucky to get as far as they did and get out when they did, Sega CD was OK and in that early niche, but lacked a lot of support that it needed to drive it to real success -another topic on its own- and 32x . . . again another topic ;))
Oh, and there's also the fact that those all came in during the big market slump of 1993-1996. That's also a big part of why the US was the last major market to go mainstream with the 5th generation. (not until late 1996, or arguably 1997 did the 5th generation actually become mainstream -you could argue the 4th gen/16-bit market was still dominant through the end of 1996, but the 1996 holiday season definitely marked the real burst in popularity and sales for the new gen systems)

Also, FMV/multimedia was a continuous driving force in the market (and still a major one to this day). Those early/embryonic/pioneering works pushing multimedia gradually evolved into the high-end cinema maturing in the mid 5th generation (some nearly mature examples appeared on the Sega CD even, and I'd argue some of the first truly mature examples of multimedia/cinematic gaming appeared on PC and 3DO with Wing Commander III -also marking one of the first truly multimillion dollar budgeted games ever produced)







Capcom didn't actually program that. IIRC it was NEC Avenue.
Interesting, I wonder if they outsourced any of their other work.



Hmm, I hadn't noticed that my box says "Licensed to NEC Home Electronics LTD." on the back. Capcom gave them a lot of help I'd think, or at least the SNES source material, to get the game the way it was. It looks like a SNES port anyway, I can't think of any other reason for the sprite sizes/animations, background colors, and screen resolution to be so similar.
That's probably saying much more on the budget of the game than Capcom's reluctance. Many, many games (including officially licensed ones -often for big bucks) used none of the original source material directly (let alone the source code) and had to be totally reprogrammed from the ground up for console/computer conversions.

Did Sega have access to the source code (or graphics data) for Ghouls n' Ghosts or Final Fight? (and if so, how much?)
How about various home computer ports of that game? (or many, many other examples)

With a big enough budget, it should not have been an issue to gain manually convert graphics/sound/music over from the arcade (or other console versions) of a game. It would mainly have been a matter of available budget. (and that would include the programmers taking the time to play-test the original console or arcade game extensively to find all the features needed to be replicated)

And honestly, access to the graphics and sound data would be more important than the source code (which might not even be workable on a home version . . . though perhaps the source code of the MD conversion would be somewhat suitable for the Amiga port -and the SNES for the PCE game).


Indeed, it's the one instance I can think of that Capcom has let ANYONE near the source for SFII. I remember some lesser conversions being really shitty thanks to absolutely no access to data. Memorably the Amiga version.
Tons of games did far better with no access to the source code (or often no access to the digital source material in general -or concept art/etc), but had to manually convert the game. (that's how the vast majority of "ports" were done for home console versions of arcade games until the late 80s or early 90s -perhaps with a few exceptions of arcade companies doing in-house ports to somewhat similar hardware -Sega may have done some partial source ports to the SG-1000/Mk.III, not sure)

Again, it's really more up to the budget and resources of a developer.




The story of the Amiga version is pretty hilarious. They were given absolutely zero resources to work with from Capcom. So for the graphics they had to go into an arcade after it had closed for the day, then take photos of all the backgrounds and characters frame by frame, scan them back into a computer and touch them up.
See, there's a distinct sign of a low-budget conversion. With a good budget, they could have had full access to an arcade machine for an extended period of time, not to mention heavy use of other console versions for reference. (if not using the console versions more heavily in general)
That could include directly digitizing images pulled from analog RGB. (console or arcade)





The SFX are very similar to the original games, unlike the music. Strange... And it seems impossible to make combos.
The sound might be an emulation/recording issue. (I've noticed a lot of sound problems on Amiga emulator recordings that aren't on real hardware -especially sound going out of tune)


Taking the technical limits into account, the ST version actually seems less bad. (I think it was based on the Amiga versions, so still a downgrade from that, but relatively speaking, it doesn't look too bad for an ST conversion of an Amiga game)

SSFII on the CD-32 was also pretty bad iirc.



That was a pretty typical story sadly, and IIRC the situation was still pretty similar when SSF2T came out on the PC. Virtually none of the arcade producers gave a crap about the western home computer market so rarely gave much access to resources and certainly not the source code. Even western companies like Atari were the same. In retrospect it seems idiotic to care so little about games that bear your name but that was just the industry back then.
No, you're thinking of earlier PC versions. SSFII Turbo was the first REALLY good version for PC, SSFII was OK (good graphics and sound, but weak FM music and I think some bugs in gameplay), before that you had the mediocre port of SNES Turbo and absolutely terrible original DOS version of SFII (derived from the Amiga game iirc).

SSFII Turbo on CD-ROM had OK midi music support iirc (more for compatibility than anything), but it really shined with the arranged soundtrack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3iWghO5lUU
z3iWghO5lUU
I think I prefer some of the music over the 3DO's arrangement.

So, from complete crap to mediocre SNES conversion to marginally decent SSFII conversion, to awesome SSFII Turbo conversion. ;) (unless I'm mistaken and the weak SSFII conversion was also the SNES example)




Edit, here's a video with the right aspect ratio:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1KOI1rLNYgQ
1KOI1rLNYgQ


The main downside to that conversion is the slightly cropped visuals due to the 320x200 resolution. (albeit it's still closer to arcade perfect than any of the 16-bit console versions ;) )

[soop]

Tons of games did far better with no access to the source code (or often no access to the digital source material in general -or concept art/etc), but had to manually convert the game. (that's how the vast majority of "ports" were done for home console versions of arcade games until the late 80s or early 90s -perhaps with a few exceptions of arcade companies doing in-house ports to somewhat similar hardware -Sega may have done some partial source ports to the SG-1000/Mk.III, not sure)

Again, it's really more up to the budget and resources of a developer.

Just to clarify, I didn't mean source code, I meant the source materials. Street Fighter is particularly reliant on the data charts such as hit priority, pushback timings and hit frames, because it's entirely reactive rather than linear.

With something like Ghouls and Ghosts, when you get to level 2, it will always be more or less the same within certain parameters, but you can complete Street Fighter with Ryu without ever performing a dragon punch for example.

And that's what you need to know - the hit priority for every move for every character in the game, how much it pushes your character back, how each character reacts to certain blows, how they get dizzy, how far projectiles travel, etc etc etc.

It's clear from looking at the Amiga version that they couldn't even work out the correct trajectory and frame animation for jumping, let alone everything else. It should never have been attempted.

[CRV]

Interesting, I wonder if they outsourced any of their other work.

The PC Engine version was by Capcom. Here are the credits (http://www.mobygames.com/game/turbo-grafx/street-fighter-ii-special-champion-edition/credits).

[soop]

Oh, that's confusing. Well it explains why it was so good.

[kool kitty89]

Just to clarify, I didn't mean source code, I meant the source materials. Street Fighter is particularly reliant on the data charts such as hit priority, pushback timings and hit frames, because it's entirely reactive rather than linear.

With something like Ghouls and Ghosts, when you get to level 2, it will always be more or less the same within certain parameters, but you can complete Street Fighter with Ryu without ever performing a dragon punch for example.

And that's what you need to know - the hit priority for every move for every character in the game, how much it pushes your character back, how each character reacts to certain blows, how they get dizzy, how far projectiles travel, etc etc etc.

It's clear from looking at the Amiga version that they couldn't even work out the correct trajectory and frame animation for jumping, let alone everything else. It should never have been attempted.
Ah, yes, the gameplay mechanics in SFII are relatively complex from that standpoint. (you'd need rather extensive play testing notes to reconstruct things manually -including variables with different difficulty settings -or speed settings with turbo/hyper)

Again, it may have been most practical/convenient to use one of the console versions to do any such testing. (not sure when the Amiga version was released, but that could limit what console versions could be used)

Another issue would be the actual controls . . . at best they could support 3 button controls (but relatively few games supported the 3 buttons on the amiga joyport -or atari ST for that matter- and controllers using that are rare iirc) . . . or you could use the keyboard and not be limited as such. (a good sized digital joystick with a sturdy base combined with key controls might work well)
Actually, since no attacks/combos require multiple button presses simultaneously, a special fighting controller could have been introduced with very simple multiplexing. (using the 3 button lines to allow 8 different states -ie up to 7 buttons plus neutral)
That's all excluding more complex multiplexing schemes with added hardware onboard the controller.


On another note: the homebrew Amstrad CPC conversion of SFII is rather impressive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miH6SZIxGGs
miH6SZIxGGs

There's also this rather odd STe tech demo:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9z8srALED2k
9z8srALED2k




And as . . . lacking as the Amiga version of SFII is, it's still amazingly high quality compared to the Tiertex produced version of Street Fighter. ;)




Oh, also, any idea on how the CD32 version of SSFII was developed? (or the PC versions of SSFII or turbo)

[Silanda]

On another note: the homebrew Amstrad CPC conversion of SFII is rather impressive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miH6SZIxGGs
miH6SZIxGGs

IIRC that's a fake.

[Thenewguy]

So Sony actively refused to allow 3rd parties to publish 2D games??? (that seems to conflict with actual games released in the US at the time . . . though maybe those were special cases)Not really, I'm saying its possible that they actively managed the number of 2D releases, and emphasized 3D, not that they refused all 2D releases point blank.

If anything I think its strange that the PS1 wasn't swamped with 2D games ~1995, being that a lot of the companies of the time (especially the Japanese ones) seemed to have a very difficult transition to 3D, and 2D software would've been easier to rush out early on.

[Da_Shocker]

The very first PSx game I ever played
0fI2I8mdRNU

[Bastardcat]

Capcom has always been fickle lady, and by lady I mean Graham Chapman in a dress.