Sonic 3 & Knuckles

[Karakasa-Obake]

Lately, I have been playing a lot of Sonic 3 & Knuckles.While it is a good game, It just doesn't feel like the other Sonic games. Is it just me, or does it feel like they got rid of the whole idea of speeding through levels gimmick and replaced it with a wide open adventure gimmick. It just doesn't work with Sonic.

tl;dr Sonic 3 is not as good as Sonic 1, 2, and CD.
What are do you think?

[jesus.arnold]

Lately, I have been playing a lot of Sonic 3 & Knuckles.While it is a good game, It just doesn't feel like the other Sonic games. Is it just me, or does it feel like they got rid of the whole idea of speeding through levels gimmick and replaced it with a wide open adventure gimmick. It just doesn't work with Sonic.

tl;dr Sonic 3 is not as good as Sonic 1, 2, and CD.
What are do you think?Sonic 2 is the odd one out.

Sonic 1, Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles all have levels which stop you from running from left to right from beginning to end, as well as including some minor puzzle elements thrown in for good measure.

[Da_Shocker]

I liked Sonic 3 with Knuckles locked on.

[Baloo]

Sonic 2 is the odd one out.

Sonic 1, Sonic 3 and Sonic and Knuckles all have levels which stop you from running from left to right from beginning to end, as well as including some minor puzzle elements thrown in for good measure.

Yeah, sonic 2 is straight up speed.

[Karakasa-Obake]

Yeah, sonic 2 is straight up speed.

That should have been the marketing slogan.
"Sonic 2 is just straight up speed!"

[Baloo]

That should have been the marketing slogan.
"Sonic 2 is just straight up speed!"

"Just look at Chemical Plant Zone!"

[Karakasa-Obake]

"Just look at Chemical Plant Zone!"
Then is bursts into some awkward rap song ending in GENESIS DOES!
Or something.

[gamegenie]

Actually Sonic 2 and Sonic CD are both straight up speed.

although doing that in Sonic CD you will only end up playing about 30% of the game, since the adventure part was made optional with the Past/Future/Good Future abilities.

Sonic 2 in my opinion is the best Sonic game for the Genesis.
Sonic CD is the best Sonic game for the Sega CD, heh the only Sonic game for Sega CD. :D

[Baloo]

Sonic CD is too wacky for it to be straight up speed. Wacky Workbench? That water level? THE FIRST LEVEL? The level design is just all over the place. And no, I don't consider going back and forth between two springs in a loop near a future sign to be straight up speed.

[Karakasa-Obake]

Sonic CD is too wacky for it to be straight up speed. Wacky Workbench? That water level? THE FIRST LEVEL? The level design is just all over the place. And no, I don't consider going back and forth between two springs in a loop near a future sign to be straight up speed.

I think they asked Pablo Picasso to design the levels or something.
They're completely abstract and confusing. I usually find myself trying to determine what is scenery and what is something I can walk on.

[gamegenie]

Sonic CD is too wacky for it to be straight up speed. Wacky Workbench? That water level? THE FIRST LEVEL? The level design is just all over the place. And no, I don't consider going back and forth between two springs in a loop near a future sign to be straight up speed.

That's just one small exception, which you could easily avoid if you were looking to speed through the game.

Sonic 2 is not avoid of all tight spots either, try to speed through easily in Casino Nights, Hill Top Zone, or Metropolis without taking a hit or dying.

Hell Sonic CD has levels made specifically for speed, Stardust Speedway being a prime example.

[Ecco]

Lately, I have been playing a lot of Sonic 3 & Knuckles.While it is a good game, It just doesn't feel like the other Sonic games. Is it just me, or does it feel like they got rid of the whole idea of speeding through levels gimmick and replaced it with a wide open adventure gimmick. It just doesn't work with Sonic.

tl;dr Sonic 3 is not as good as Sonic 1, 2, and CD.
What are do you think?

I agree that Sonic 3 is not as good as Sonic 1, 2, or CD. I also like Sonic & Knuckles a lot more than Sonic 3.

Sonic 3 does have its moments though -- I love Ice Cap and Hydrocity.

But please no Carnival Night Zone!

[Rusty Venture]

Carnival Night Zone = extreme suckage.

[Mr Smith]

Lately, I have been playing a lot of Sonic 3 & Knuckles.While it is a good game, It just doesn't feel like the other Sonic games. Is it just me, or does it feel like they got rid of the whole idea of speeding through levels gimmick and replaced it with a wide open adventure gimmick. It just doesn't work with Sonic.

tl;dr Sonic 3 is not as good as Sonic 1, 2, and CD.
What are do you think?
Agree 100%. Somebody buy this chap an ale.

[jesus.arnold]

Sonic 2 must stand as the most overrated 16-bit game in existence, it's the Halo of the 16-bit world.

The fact that such an obviously rushed and uninspired cash-in is held in such high regard begars belief, the developers must've thought they'd pulled off the blag of the century with that one, throwing together a sequel with obviously so little interest in what they were doing and yet getting pretty good critical praise, and from joe public what amounts to nothing short of adulation.

Sonic the Hedgehog was one of the most inspired, genius platformers ever created, the game is full of so many "what the heck, where'd they think up that" moments it's incredible, high speed rolling hedgehog?!!? Springs?! roller coaster loops?!!?!?! gravity spheres that turn you upside down and around?!! bonus stages where the whole level turns?!!?!? Pinball machine bumpers and flippers?!?!!?!?!?! Not to mention the very well implemented ideas from older games such as collecting air underwater, pushing the blocks around and riding them in the lava, and the see saws that send you flying into the air.

People deservingly love the Mario games, as well they should as they're easily on par with the Sonic games however Mario games were a slow progression, they improved more and more with time and took from older games such as Pac Land, WHERE THE HECK DID SONIC THE HEDGEHOG COME FROM?!?!!? it just appeared fully formed with masses of new ideas in it.

But what do people talk about? Sonic the Hedgehog 2! big wow, I'm so amazed at their skills at re-using levels from Sonic 1, adding a spin dash and an airplane level, how full of ideas they must've been.

I never considered myself to be one of the die hard Mega Drive fans back in the day, but now i'm starting to think that 2/3rds of the Mega Drive fans out there were actually late in the day bandwagon jumpers anyway as I see no other reason why there's so much nostalgia for Sonic 2. We got our Mega Drive in 91' we played Sonic the Hedgehog to death when it came out and I was amazed from the 1st second I put it on, Sonic 2 was nothing but a dissapointment, where were the ingenious new ideas and contraptions that made the 1st game so interesting?

Rant over.

[gamegenie]

I don't praise Sonic 1 so much because to me it was better succeeded by Sonic 2 and Sonic CD not just chronologically but as an improved rendition.

Back in the day, when I went to the Service Merchandise store as a kid they would have on display a NES, SNES, and a Sega Genesis. The NES was running Super Mario Bros 3, SNES was running Super Mario World, and the Genesis was running Sonic the Hedgehog. For me back then Super Mario just had more appeal than Sonic. Until I played Sonic 2.

My first Sonic game was Sonic 1, for Game Gear. I didn't get the original Sonic 1 for Genesis until after I had Sonic 2, 3, and Sonic CD. So this would explain my lack of over enthusiasm for it compared to the Sonic games that came after it. I don't think Sonic 1 is bad. I see for it's time that it was a great game. It's just that today I treat it the same way I would treat Super Mario Bros 1, high regard in a different way.

[sketch]

I vacillate between Sonic 1 and 2 as being my favorite Sonic games (including the GBA and DS iterations, although they are good), but I have never been able to get into Sonic 3. I'll bust it out and try and give it some more game time, but honestly, I didn't have to ever try and like the first two sonics. They just grabbed me and didn't let go. The little time I've given to Sonic 3 has given me a "meh" feeling and it just doesn't grab me.

[gamegenie]

I was playing a little of Sonic 3 this morning, the only thing I don't like about it is the music change they did when you lock it on to Sonic & Knuckles to make it complete.

[jesus.arnold]

I vacillate between Sonic 1 and 2 as being my favorite Sonic games (including the GBA and DS iterations, although they are good), but I have never been able to get into Sonic 3. I'll bust it out and try and give it some more game time, but honestly, I didn't have to ever try and like the first two sonics. They just grabbed me and didn't let go. The little time I've given to Sonic 3 has given me a "meh" feeling and it just doesn't grab me.That "meh" feeling started the first time I played Sonic 2 never ended even after it was finished, and continues to appear after years of forcing myself to replay it.

You wouldn't believe my relief when first playing Sonic 3 and finding that it was actually a proper, true sequel to the original, with some great new ideas and load of set pieces, not to mention a 2-player co-op where player 2 could actually do something

[TmEE]

Sonic3 & Knuckles = the most jawusum gaming experience ever

[gamegenie]

You wouldn't believe my relief when first playing Sonic 3 and finding that it was actually a proper, true sequel to the original, with some great new ideas and load of set pieces, not to mention a 2-player co-op where player 2 could actually do something

The only thing player 2 couldn't do in the co-op play on Sonic 2 was that Tails couldn't fly (unless left off screen), or open items. He could collect rings and attack just as sonic could.

Sonic 3 by itself was a short game, and quite lacking.

[jesus.arnold]

The only thing player 2 couldn't do in the co-op play on Sonic 2 was that Tails couldn't fly (unless left off screen), or open items. He could collect rings and attack just as sonic could.Tails in Sonic 3 can pick you up and fly, taking you to different paths or over particularly nasty obstacles, Tails in Sonic 2 does one of two things at all times

1. Is constantly in a state of trying to get back on the screen (ie floating around)

2. Forces you to move through the levels at a snails pace

Being Tails in Sonic 2 SUCKS, being Tails in Sonic 3 may still suck a little bit but at least you can do something useful apart from just helping with the boss batles, you can get a proper feeling of teamwork going on in Sonic 3.

[gamegenie]

Tails in Sonic 3 can pick you up and fly, taking you to different paths or over particularly nasty obstacles, Tails in Sonic 2 does one of two things at all times

1. Is constantly in a state of trying to get back on the screen (ie floating around)

2. Forces you to move through the levels at a snails pace

Being Tails in Sonic 2 SUCKS, being Tails in Sonic 3 may still suck a little bit but at least you can do something useful apart from just helping with the boss batles, you can get a proper feeling of teamwork going on in Sonic 3.

that's just minor difference/improvements. Doesn't really subtract from Sonic 2 much, since the main player is still Sonic, and if you're goal is to speed through, you don't have any time to care about which different routes Tails will take you.

[jerry coeurl]

Sonic 2 is brilliant. I don't know what this guy is on about.

[Smii]

Being Tails in Sonic 2 SUCKS, being Tails in Sonic 3 may still suck a little bit but at least you can do something useful apart from just helping with the boss batles, you can get a proper feeling of teamwork going on in Sonic 3.

Arghh. No. I've been forced to be Tails in Sonic 3, to help the boyfriend's sister play through more of the game without dying. It's some of the least fun I've ever had playing on a Mega Drive, ever.

Did I mention she's 20?

[jesus.arnold]

that's just minor difference/improvements. Doesn't really subtract from Sonic 2 much, since the main player is still Sonic, and if you're goal is to speed through, you don't have any time to care about which different routes Tails will take you.


Arghh. No. I've been forced to be Tails in Sonic 3, to help the boyfriend's sister play through more of the game without dying. It's some of the least fun I've ever had playing on a Mega Drive, ever.

Did I mention she's 20?You two talk like you've played about 2-3 co-op games of Sonic 2 and 3 in your entire lives! this goes along with the idea I had that most people around here didn't actually play the games when they came out at all.

Tails being able to carry Sonic is not a minor difference at all, at the very least it means that everytime there was a nasty section in a level as kids the one playing Tails could take over and fly around in control of Sonic's movements, and at best when two of you had a lazy afternoon you and a friend could look around exploring the stages with each other.

I know about being Tails, because I am a younger brother, and younger brothers the world over were always lumbered with Tails, there is Zero competition between being Tails in Sonic 2 and being Tails in Sonic 3, though I will re-itterate what I said earlier, being Tails always sucks, it's just that it sucks a hell of a lot less in Sonic 3

[TmEE]

Tails is kick ass, I enjoy playing the game though as Tails as much as I do with Sonic. Knuckles on the other hand, is not that awesome, but the tougher boss fights make up for it.

[jesus.arnold]

Tails is kick ass, I enjoy playing the game though as Tails as much as I do with Sonic. Knuckles on the other hand, is not that awesome, but the tougher boss fights make up for it.We're talking about playing as Tails as a second player, I have no problems with just playing as Tails on my own.

[TmEE]

We're talking about playing as Tails as a second player, I have no problems with just playing as Tails on my own.

2P does not work in Sonic games, at least not outside Sonic2 2P mode.... Sonic3 should have had such split screen, the engine is faster than of Sonic2's (it has much less slowdown when the 68K is put running on 3.5MHz)...

[jesus.arnold]

2P does not work in Sonic games, at least not outside Sonic2 2P mode.... Sonic3 should have had such split screen, the engine is faster than of Sonic2's (it has much less slowdown when the 68K is put running on 3.5MHz)...Yeah split screen was definately the only way to go, any 2d platformer with a fast pace will never really work two players with one screen.

this was a lessor of two evils style conversation at it's heart :)

[streetsofrage]

sonic 2 is the best game on the sega genesis JMO

[Flygon]

Sonic 2 is very... meh for me. Its good, but not the best.

Granted, my first Sonic game was Sonic 3 and Knuckles on the PC version, so perhaps I am a bit biased.

Than again, you could claim I am biased because I think the PC versions music is better (When used with a good sound card).

[The Coop]

My thoughts on this...

To me, Sonic 3 & Knuckles has been the peak of the franchise. Sonics 1, 2 and 3D Blast are fun games, with great tunes, very nice graphics, good levels, and a great sense of speed (in 1 and 2 anyway). But when the third game came along, it expanded the franchise without abandoning what came before it. If you wanted to, you could still blaze through the levels. But there was a new element... exploration. The levels were huge, without being confusing. Factor in some cool music, hidden areas, more interesting and challenging bonus levels, and the same quality boss fights the series was known for, and it was a great game. But when you stack it onto Sonic & Knuckles (which is a fun game on its own, even if it doesn't feel like as much of a stand alone game as the first three), what you have is a massive quest filled the with graphics, music and challenges that made the third game so wonderful. Only now, it's doubled in scope. And when you play through Sonic 3 as Knuckles, you find all sorts of things you never knew were there. S3&K is simply a great combination of what came before it, and added qualities.

Sonic CD is a tough one for me. It's a big game, but something got lost during the development. The levels don't come off as well, and some levels later on feel very sloppy in their design. The past/present/future idea was very cool, but I think it wound up making the game too convoluted. The bonus stages weren't as well thought out either. Its not a bad game by any means, but it just doesn't seem to have that extra something found in the Genesis titles.

In the end, if I were to rank them, it would go...

Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic 2/Sonic 3 (too close to call)
Sonic & Knuckles
Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic CD
Sonic 1

Keep in mind, being last on that list doesn't make it a bad game. Frankly, I don't think there is a bad 16-bit Sonic game... though Sonic Spinball does its best to prove me wrong.

[tomaitheous]

After years of playing Sonic 2, I've just come the realization that it's just a tease. You've got the first area, lots of running, speed, and such. Then you've got Chemical Zone, which is bad ass. Then... the levels just keep getting slower and slower. The Casino level was decent actually, but the rest of the slow levels are ... meh. I need to give Sonic 3 a proper try out.

[Pulstar]

My thoughts on this...

To me, Sonic 3 & Knuckles has been the peak of the franchise. Sonics 1, 2 and 3D Blast are fun games, with great tunes, very nice graphics, good levels, and a great sense of speed (in 1 and 2 anyway). But when the third game came along, it expanded the franchise without abandoning what came before it. If you wanted to, you could still blaze through the levels. But there was a new element... exploration. The levels were huge, without being confusing. Factor in some cool music, hidden areas, more interesting and challenging bonus levels, and the same quality boss fights the series was known for, and it was a great game. But when you stack it onto Sonic & Knuckles (which is a fun game on its own, even if it doesn't feel like as much of a stand alone game as the first three), what you have is a massive quest filled the with graphics, music and challenges that made the third game so wonderful. Only now, it's doubled in scope. And when you play through Sonic 3 as Knuckles, you find all sorts of things you never knew were there. S3&K is simply a great combination of what came before it, and added qualities.

Sonic CD is a tough one for me. It's a big game, but something got lost during the development. The levels don't come off as well, and some levels later on feel very sloppy in their design. The past/present/future idea was very cool, but I think it wound up making the game too convoluted. The bonus stages weren't as well thought out either. Its not a bad game by any means, but it just doesn't seem to have that extra something found in the Genesis titles.

In the end, if I were to rank them, it would go...

Sonic 3 & Knuckles
Sonic 2/Sonic 3 (too close to call)
Sonic & Knuckles
Sonic 3D Blast
Sonic CD
Sonic 1

Keep in mind, being last on that list doesn't make it a bad game. Frankly, I don't think there is a bad 16-bit Sonic game... though Sonic Spinball does its best to prove me wrong.

Glad to find someone on almost every forum who echoes my same thoughts! S3&Knuckles is quite impressive in its ability to tell a *proper* story without a single piece of dialogue.. epic stuff.

[Bablefish]

I have played Sonic 3 & Knuckles all the way through several times. Maybe it's just me, I really don't care for the most part about the levels in Sonic 3.

[jerry coeurl]

Sonic 3D Blast over any of the other games? Really??

[The Coop]

Yep.

To me, Sonic 1 is a fine game. I got it shortly after it came out, and loved it. But to be honest, its level designs and gameplay aren't as interesting or engrossing as what followed. Sonic CD just barely edges out the first game overall, thanks to it's more ambitious scope and added gameplay ideas, but it also has some level and game design issues that hold it down. Sonic 3D Blast, while not featuring the speed or level size of 1 and CD, has ideas that made the game more interesting. Yes, the isometric perspective is drastically different, and the bonus stages are pretty easy, yet 3D still feels like a Sonic game, has the musical and visual style of a Sonic game, and is put together well. It may be the black sheep of the Sonic family, but I find 3D is simply more fun to play than 1 and CD.

So with the initial WOW! factor of each 16bit game's release having faded away years ago, I rank 3D above 1 and CD, while putting it below the likes of 2, 3, and S&K.

[jerry coeurl]

Huh. I can't stand Sonic 3D Blast, at least on the Genesis. I hate the isometric perspective in most cases (although there are definite exceptions), and I just don't find it that interesting to play. It's more like an updated Flicky with a Sonic skin than a true Sonic game, imo.

The Saturn version, on the other hand, I would still like to pick up cheap. The soundtrack by Richard Jacques is excellent, and they completely changed the special stages.

AsED4AOAE68

Sonic 2 always had the best special stages, I think.

[The Coop]

I have the Saturn version. It's superior in a number of ways to the Genesis game (namely visually, aurally, and in bonus stage frequency), but they both still play the same. So if the Genesis game bores you, the other version is likely to do the same as well.

I know I'm sort of the odd man out on this. I've never been one to rate a game based on whether or not it's a true entry in a series (oy... the fights I've read regarding Super Mario RPG), but rather, how much fun I found that entry to be. And much like some people adore Sonic Spinball much to my confusion, I'm fond of Sonic 3D Blast... much to nearly everyone's confusion :lol:

[jerry coeurl]

Well what I meant to say is that I like the updated special stages and music enough to play through the main game just for them. The main game's boring, sure, but the music is great and the special stages are a lot of fun, and pretty impressive for the Saturn. I just wouldn't spend more than 10 or 15 bucks on it.

My main problem isn't that it's different, exactly. Just that I don't find it very fun in comparison to the other titles (with the exception of Sonic Spinball, of course, but I'd rank that and 3D Blast about the same).

[gamegenie]

Sonic 3D Blast is a complete waste of time, I'd rate it behind Spinball and group it with those DS Sonic games.

[Karakasa-Obake]

I have the Saturn version. It's superior in a number of ways to the Genesis game (namely visually, aurally, and in bonus stage frequency), but they both still play the same. So if the Genesis game bores you, the other version is likely to do the same as well.

I know I'm sort of the odd man out on this. I've never been one to rate a game based on whether or not it's a true entry in a series (oy... the fights I've read regarding Super Mario RPG), but rather, how much fun I found that entry to be. And much like some people adore Sonic Spinball much to my confusion, I'm fond of Sonic 3D Blast... much to nearly everyone's confusion :lol:

You know, I never really thought Sonic 3D was a bad game.
I got it about a week after it came out. Well, my friend gave it to me.
He thought it was a horrible game and didn't deserve to be put in a Genesis.
Harsh? I think so. I spent many hours playing Sonic 3D when he gave it to me. It was an innovative idea. Although the isometric view does get annoying at times.

[gamegenie]

The one Sonic game that Sega didn't release that looks like it would have been a big hit. No not Sonic Xtreme.

SEGASONIC

http://www.freewebs.com/sonic-x/sega-sonic.jpg

why Sega sit on this IP is beyond me. It would have been perfect for Sega CD's hardware.

still hoping someone will bring this game to Xbox Live Arcade.

[jerry coeurl]

SEGASONIC is pointless without a trackball.

[gamegenie]

SEGASONIC is pointless without a trackball.

No it's not. Especially since about 95% of the population haven't even heard of the game.

The 360's analog stick blows the track ball away. That controller wasn't even fun when the Atari 5200 used it.

[The Coop]

I remember SegaSonic. I saw it in an arcade once many moons ago, and was tempted to to give it a try. But, I had a dollar's worth of quarters, and the game was fifty cents. I blew it off, and figured I'd try it when I had more cash on me. Of course, the next time I went there, the machine was gone, and that pretty much stuck a fork in that idea.


...

I think I'm gonna go see if it's on MAME, and finally see what it's all about.

[jerry coeurl]

No it's not. Especially since about 95% of the population haven't even heard of the game.

The 360's analog stick blows the track ball away. That controller wasn't even fun when the Atari 5200 used it.

This game was designed to be played with a trackball. If you're using an analog stick you're essentially "turbo moding" the whole game. All of the game's challenge revolves around (heh) using the track ball.

[gamegenie]

This game was designed to be played with a trackball. If you're using an analog stick you're essentially "turbo moding" the whole game. All of the game's challenge revolves around (heh) using the track ball.

i played this game on MAME, and I prefer to turbo mode the game than spin a ball.

[jerry coeurl]

Well that's all well and good. But it still defeats the purpose of the game.

[17daysolderthannes]

i played this game on MAME, and I prefer to turbo mode the game than spin a ball.


Well that's all well and good. But it still defeats the purpose of the game.

+1

Playing SegaSonic with a joystick is like playing Track and Field with an autofire controller.

[The Coop]

... is like playing Track and Field with an autofire controller.

:!:


**runs off to try it**

[Pulstar]

I played the original at Hamley's and I still prefer the trackball control. Alas I can't justify getting one just for the odd game.

[nomad83]

in my opion sonic 3 is the 5th greatest sonic game ever

[Baloo]

SEGASONIC is pointless without a trackball.

Then why not re-release the Master System trackball controller with it?

And as for me, I'm not a very big fan of Sonic and Knuckles at all, but I do like Sonic 3. I really don't like the levels in S&K. They're bland, boring, and unmemorable. If I had to rank them it would go like this:

Knuckles' Chaotix
Sonic 1
Sonic 3
Sonic 2
Sonic CD
Sonic and Knuckles
Sonic 3D Blast

Hey, I like Knuckles' Chaotix.

[jerry coeurl]

You honestly think Sega would go to the trouble of releasing a special controller for one game? They've done it before, sure, but I think it's pretty clear that they are only interested in the fast and easy dollars these days.

[Baloo]

You honestly think Sega would go to the trouble of releasing a special controller for one game? They've done it before, sure, but I think it's pretty clear that they are only interested in the fast and easy dollars these days.

All they had to do was take the master system controller, program it to be used with the game, bundle it with the game, and voila! You don't even have to do anything since the Master System controllers work with the Genesis.

So really, that trackball thing is nonsense when they already had a trackball controller for Master System.

[Bablefish]

I love Sonic 2, to me it's a great game from start to finish. As for Sonic 1, I just find the game way too hard for my skill level. Sonic and Knuckles is a great game by itself, even better when locked on to Sonic 3, I just love those extra levels.

[K.K.]

As for Sonic 1, I just find the game way too hard for my skill level.
Wait, what? Sonic the Hedgehog is a very easy game, I can beat it without any problem, but I have problem when playing Sonic the Hedgehog 2.