SNES

[Vorty]

Would you agree with this statement?

=================================

Genesis. The SNES had like three good exclusive games:

Super Mario World
Donkey Kong Country
Super Mario Kart

Then, we have the slew of overrated "classics" such as Zelda 3, Super Metroid (boring as fuck), Super Castlevania 4, Yoshi's Island, Earthbound,Diddy Kong's Quest and the Mega Man X games.

Now, let's look at the classic titles for the Sega Genesis:

Sonic the Hedgehog 2
Streets of Rage 2 (Beats all three Final Fight games)
Beyond Oasis (better than Zelda 3)
Gunstar Heroes
Dynamite Headdy
Ristar (on par with Mario World)
Shining Force series
Phantasy Star series
Robocop vs. Terminator (better than the SNES version).
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 + Knuckles (Super Mario who?)
Ghoul's and Ghosts (Better than Super GnG.)
Street Fighter 2 Championship edition
Yu Yu Hakusho. (All of the "anime" fighters on the SNES were disgraceful.)
Plus, without my Genesis I wouldn't be able to play Sonic CD, the greatest platform game of all time.

So, the Genesis pretty much owns the SNES at all levels. True, the SNES had better graphical and audio capiblities but if nearly all of the games on the system are shit, then who cares?

I also loved when the screen rotated around in games like SC4, Ghouls n Ghosts and that shitty Mohawk game. Nothing like a tad of motion sickness to make your gaming experience complete!

Also, the SNES controller was poorly designed. The actual look of the console look horrible and clunky in comparison to the sleek and sexy Genesis look. So, you guys can stick with your three good games,

With the SNES we have quantity over quality. With the Genesis, we have a large range of great games, covering a wide variety of genres. The Genesis had a great selection of RPG's, fighting games, shooters and platform games while the SNES had a ton of boring RPG's and a ton of dire liscensed games (so did the Genesis but not to the same extent.)

Now, I'm gonna go play Bebe's Kids.

~Vorty

[Obviously]

I'm a Metroid fanatic, and Super Metroid is one of my holy grails . It's also not taking into account the SNES RPG's which is many people's reason for loving the system over the Genesis. I'm not going to go into naming specific games because I only have a few seconds to post this and it's kind of a dumb way to try to prove which system is better because everyone's got differing opinions.

So personally I don't agree and let's leave the 16-bit console wars to rest.

[GeckoYamori]

And then we have people claiming the exact opposite on the other side of the table. There are plenty of great games for the SNES you probably haven't touched, and the same goes for the Nintendo bunch who think the MD consists of Sonic the Hedgehog, and the rest are just inferior ports of SNES titles. Ignorance on both parts in this case.

I do agree though that the SNES is more or less the most overrated system ever (Well, there's Playstation on a commercial level, but I don't see it being elevated to a godlike status). I don't like the underdeveloped gameplay mechanics of japanese RPGs which is what the SNES mainly has to offer. From a platforming perspective they are both pretty even, it's in the arcade action department where teh MD really outclasses the SNES, and it also happens to be my genre of preference.

As for the console design, I think you're refering to the american SNES which was indeed very ugly. I can't say the same for the european and japanese designs though.

[16bitter]

That post is fanboyism at its worst; and by that I mean, it's laughable. SNES is a top 5 system all-time, right along with the Genesis.

[Obviously]

And I love Megaman X (especially Megaman X, though not as much as I love Super Metroid), and Link's Awakening, so like I said it's a matter of opinion. I have my reasons for loving both systems. It depends on what mood I'm in at the time. Sure Genesis is my personal favorite because of the previously mentioned arcade action, but that doesn't make it better than the SNES.

[Dartagnan1083]

Castlevania IV was complete shit from start to finish, I agree there.
And so was Donkey Kong Country


Otherwise, yeah. . .
Genny fanboyism at its worst.

[David J.]

They both have good games and they both have bad games, I think it's time we quit bickering what one is better, they are both good systems, and they each have their pros and cons.

[j_factor]

I cannot agree with anything that puts down EarthBound. I seriously consider that to be one of the best videogames ever put to code.

I do agree that Mega Man X is overrated, but I never liked Mega Man to begin with, nor do I understand why people are so enamoured with that series (both X and the original). I did enjoy X4 and X5, but really only for the Zero stuff.

In any case, SNES is a damn fine system, with many damn fine games. It's not as good a system as Genesis, but it's certainly not worthless. Saying it had a total of 3 good exclusive games is either silliness or near-total complete ignorance of the system's library.

[Obviously]

Megaman is mostly a nostalgia thing. I love the early ones dearly but I can't stand the recent titles (X4 is probably the last one I really liked). It's a love or hate series so I can't argue with anyone who doesn't like it. I'm not a big fan of the game's online community though, some people take the series too far. I consider certain titles in the series classics but they're not godly.

[16bitter]

Castlevania IV was complete shit from start to finish, I agree there.

I love Castlevania IV. Great graphics, music, play and overall atmosphere. And it had the greatest whip machanics of the series.

Does anybody else wish that Konami would make a traditional Castlevania game again? I loved Symphony, but the routine is growing old in the subsect of Metroidvania gameplay that has now become dominant.

Where's my 2D leveled Castlevania? I'm hoping that there's a chance on PSP or DS.


And so was Donkey Kong Country

This is a game that gets lambasted unfairly. It looks great and plays well. The worst charge I'd bring is that it's in no way innovative for the 2D platforming genre, but I could say that about many other games I love in relation to their time of release/gameplay.

Though DKC2 is a much better game. The levels are more creative, the platforming more frantic in pace, and the challenge much higher. I'd rank it, not DKC, as one of the true greats of the SNES' platforming lineup.

[Genesis Knight]

I don't get the DK hate, either.

[GeckoYamori]

The first DKC had bad collision detection, dull level design and some pretty annoying glitches, hinting at a pretty rushed product. That didn't stop magazines from giving it astronomical scores though, one even gave it 117/100. Goes to show how immature gaming journalism was at the time, and a big kick in the nuts to the mumbling idiots who claim the industry today is all about graphics and how much better it was in the 'good old days'. It's pretty sad how this was the game that turned the tide for Nintendo and assured their dominance in the american market.

[j_factor]

The DKC 'hate' comes from how amazingly hyped the game was -- while other great games got little to no attention.

Personally, I find the original DKC to be pretty lackluster at times. I love DKC2 and 3, though.

[16bitter]

I cannot agree with anything that puts down EarthBound. I seriously consider that to be one of the best videogames ever put to code.

Earthbound is such an amazing game that sadly got overlooked by almost everyone during its time. Another great 16-bit game lost to the hype of 32-bit, not to mention the obstacles of its genre being niche (as well as it being a niche game even within that genre) and its lack of graphical oomph by the standards of its platform.


I do agree that Mega Man X is overrated, but I never liked Mega Man to begin with, nor do I understand why people are so enamoured with that series (both X and the original). I did enjoy X4 and X5, but really only for the Zero stuff.

Mega Man is a good series with far too many games. The last game I played in the X series was X2, and the last in the original set was IV all the way back in 91.

I doubt I've missed much since. They'd be better looked upon if there weren't so many sequels of little to no difference that seemingly come out every six months, depending on which of the now uncounted series it belongs to.

I was in the store the other day and I saw Mega Man Zero 4. Good God. How many of these do they move?


In any case, SNES is a damn fine system, with many damn fine games. It's not as good a system as Genesis, but it's certainly not worthless.

I don't find it that easy to call, myself. It depends on genre -- SNES is better for RPGs, the Genesis is out in front on shooters, et cetera -- and I play almost everything so I felt like both systems had a distinctive parity not seen before or since, even while being highly unique and idiosyncraticly divergent in specific ways from each other.

[16bitter]

I love DKC2 and 3, though.

Does the third improve at all on the second?

[GeckoYamori]

The problem with Megaman is that once a new series comes out all is fine and dandy, and then you are showered with 5 million sequels before you can say 'wooble'. The worst culprit being Battle Network, and that didn't even have a very good concept to begin with. I think they're up to a total of about 10 BN games since 2001 now. Recently Rockman ZX was announced for the DS, and I expect it to have a short-lived virginity.

[16bitter]

The problem with Megaman is that once a new series comes out all is fine and dandy, and then you are showered with 5 million sequels before you can say 'wooble'. The worst culprit being Battle Network, and that didn't even have a very good concept to begin with. I think they're up to a total of about 10 BN games since 2001 now. Recently Rockman ZX was announced for the DS, and I expect it to have a short-lived virginity.

All true. And the problem of over-saturation stretches back to development -- nothing new or challenging to the status quo of whatever sub-series is brought to the table typically if ever, and the only place you'll find new ideas with an MM game is at the genesis of a new series.

There's never enough breathing room given or thought put in to how to move an established MM-labeled franchise forward. IF you buy MMX5 you expect it to be basically the same mode or form as all that have preceded it -- never a great surprise, pro or con from that, in gameplay conceits.

[David J.]

I always thought the first one was the best, then the second and the third was last.

I think it is my fav. snes games.

[Alvatron]

Man, I can't believe after over a decade the 16-bit war is still going on. I love my Genesis, and will never part with it but, the SNES is a great system as well. Man, the SNES only has three good games? How did it ever survive as long as it did with just three good games? :roll: Sorry, but the SNES is just as good as the Genesis. Both have their strong points.

Speaking of Mega Man X, I just picked up the X Collection the other day for my PS2. Not bad for $30.

[Dartagnan1083]

The gameboy Castlevanias are better than Castlevania IV.

The whip mechanics are part of what brought it down for me (accidental limp-whiping. . .any change in direction as Belmont's hand comes forward does a weak strike rather than a normal one), the main thing that ruins it for me is the boring design.

DKC hate comes partially from the hype.
When you take away the graphics and music, you're left with a below average platformer with substandard integration of platforming cliches.

On the other hand, DKC2 actually seemed to impliment some actual effort in level design, but not the first.

[j_factor]

The gameboy Castlevanias are better than Castlevania IV.

Ick, are you serious? Castlevania on Game Boy was shit.

[chewy]

I like the SNES, but Megadrive/Genesis will always rule the roost.

[Ro Nova]

I might catch some crap for this but I find myself playing my SNES more than my Genesis these days. Does anyone have any love for Starfox around here? I can't get enough of that game lately. It had that Super FX chip graphics accelerator built into the cart right? Was anything similar even possible to install and operate in Genesis carts?

Super Castlevania IV is a great game. I'd love a new "old school" style Castlevania as well. Super Metroid is a really great game. Donkey Kong Country was all about flashy graphics to mask average to slightly above average gameplay although DKC 2 was an improvement. I haven't played DKC 3 that much so I have no opinion of it.

Oh well, I'm sure I'll come back to my Genesis...I always do.

[j_factor]

I might catch some crap for this but I find myself playing my SNES more than my Genesis these days. Does anyone have any love for Starfox around here? I can't get enough of that game lately. It had that Super FX chip graphics accelerator built into the cart right? Was anything similar even possible to install and operate in Genesis carts?

Virtua Racing had that SVP chip built in -- same idea. It would have been possible to do many more Genesis games with coprocessors, but it would've been kind of silly IMO. Coprocessors make the games more expensive (some of those chipped SNES games cost up to $89), and the Sega CD was more powerful (not to mention cheaper to develop for, to produce, and at retail).

[David J.]

I looooove Star Fox.

[Obviously]

I looooove Star Fox.

Agreed but I liked the N64 one a bit more.

[Dartagnan1083]

Yes, I am quite serrious in my rantings on Castlevania IV.

I recently FORCED myself to play it from start to finish (to see why virtually everyone loved it) and found nothing redeemable about it. I simply was not enjoying it, and found most of the game to be the ugliest I had seen in the franchise. It was also boring. . .it wasn't just that levels dragged, but the fact that they were not entertaining.

I remember enjoying the GB castlevanias, and even found my limited time with The SNES version of Dracula X last summer somewhat entertaining.
The NES castlevanias are great (despite DEATH being cheap), bloodlines manages an awesome atmosphere at times, Chi no Rondo is the best ever, the metroid-vanias continue to impress, and the PS2 vanias manage some of the best soundtracks in the franchise.

But I don't have anything positive to say about Castlevania IV.
I might have liked it in 91, but playing it now. . .I just can't stand it.

[Drixxel]

The whip mechanics are part of what brought it down for me (accidental limp-whiping. . .any change in direction as Belmont's hand comes forward does a weak strike rather than a normal one)

I remember your arguments against SCIV in an earlier thread, and I'm pretty sure I had the same response then to this "limp whip" that I do now: if you tap X once and let the whip extend instead of holding down X through the strike, your whip swing is rock steady.. in fact, it's impossible to redirect it accidentally this way. Tap X, don't hold X!


Does anyone have any love for Starfox around here? I can't get enough of that game lately.

Star Fox.. still a great game. I'd love to see Nintendo dust off the unreleased Star Fox 2 and make an effort to release some sort of Star Fox DS.

[Dartagnan1083]

no, it's still possible unless I give it the absolute lightest of taps on the controller. . .which requires too much concentration. Even with light strokes on the Keyboard (when emulating), I've still been able to dulpicate the same 'accidents'. Belmont will actually throw the limp whip without ever doing a standard snap.

The snes D-pad is just sensitive enough to result in my unintended limp-whips with enough frequency to make it problematic. Multi Directional whipping isn't a totally bad idea, but it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Multi-directional whiping never made a comeback, and how limp whipping only reappeared once in 'Harmony of Dissonance'. Konami evidently had their own problems with it.

Useless whip mechanics aside, there's still the issue of boring levels to contend with. Not to mention the impotent bosses.

------------------------------------

As for Starfox 2. . .I have a working ROM, I've beaten the working ROM.
While they had some GREAT ideas used in the game (multiple selectable pilots, different craft, RTS style map-based mission selection). . .it falls rather short with it's simplistic missions and apparant focus on Walker segments. Boss fights are also much too easy.
Each space mission begins in cockpit view, and can be beaten in as little as 30 seconds. 3rd person view involves using the shoulder buttons to [effectivly] manuver, and is too convoluted to use compared to the cockpit view.

While the classic controlls remain for traditional [ground] segments, they're much too short, and again. . .usually put you into walker-form for the boss segments. Save for andross, who's a real pussy this time around.

On top of all this, the main game can be beaten in under 70 minutes.

It's not hard to see why they cancelled it and stuck with Starfox 64.
rather, it's hard to see how a project like this ended up so dissapointing.
when playing the few traditionally controling segments, it's painful to think about what could have been. I've never seen an SuperFX game move so smoothly.

Some of you may enjoy it more than me. . .
So I'm perfectly willing to send the ROM around.

[ary incorparated]

While snes had Grphics,Megadrive Had al the animations>I remeber Donkey kong country but i was awed by it the first time,the scond time i noticed nothing in the background was moving,FMV.I still love the games because of their gameplay but i think megadrive has better overall graphics,Snes couldnt do Gunstar heroes,nor contra hard corps.Snes better graphics Hmmm not exactly ehy Earthbound F zero Mario Kart Mario world couldnt Tip Gunstar heroes,Batman and robin,Landstalker,Sonic 2.Alien soldier.The snes genre offers more kiddy games not realistick games,which is fine and origenal,While megadrive goes more for the Animated look of games like Gunstar Alien soldier and some more realistick games.Thats why some people say that psx looks better then n64 while not and ps2 looks better then cube while not.Look at Aladin on the snes,Great Graphics i agree since their like Photos.Oke Music Snes May had the sound chip but couldnt Hold aggainst the Baddass megadrive beats,Like comparing one of the to much RPG,s music to Thunderforce we know who wins,BTW RPG music is fun but isnt pushing any adrenaline which megadrive does,Batman and robin etc,I dont think the megadrive was limited compared to The music pumps way faster while the processor is faster,Snes hasnt got attitude,but doesnt need it since its nintendo is a bit kiddy,Snes hasnt got graphics,who made that upp,Only the DK games and some other,look at Chin Chan 2 and F zero they dont look that good,Music is to slow and to orchestral.Snes hasnt got a slick model(btw theres only 3 of them)Snes is slower,Snes cant animate that good which finfishes graphics(gunstar heroes)So in the final depht the snes isnt superior But still fun,I owned one but it didnt offer the games i liked,Plus DK country games where to expensive in holland.A few titles i like on snes but its limited.megadrive offers a library of 9+ titles,plus its simple and delicate.BTW megadrive could do 3d which they did but not much,like virtua racing,Panorama cotton,pseudo 3d Vectorman.Megadrive used 3d features in games like 3d bosses in a fully animated game,personally bit more fun then all the way polygone games that try to look good.Megadrive 1,2nd snes. :D

[ary incorparated]

no, it's still possible unless I give it the absolute lightest of taps on the controller. . .which requires too much concentration. Even with light strokes on the Keyboard (when emulating), I've still been able to dulpicate the same 'accidents'. Belmont will actually throw the limp whip without ever doing a standard snap.

The snes D-pad is just sensitive enough to result in my unintended limp-whips with enough frequency to make it problematic. Multi Directional whipping isn't a totally bad idea, but it really doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out why Multi-directional whiping never made a comeback, and how limp whipping only reappeared once in 'Harmony of Dissonance'. Konami evidently had their own problems with it.

Useless whip mechanics aside, there's still the issue of boring levels to contend with. Not to mention the impotent bosses.

------------------------------------

As for Starfox 2. . .I have a working ROM, I've beaten the working ROM.
While they had some GREAT ideas used in the game (multiple selectable pilots, different craft, RTS style map-based mission selection). . .it falls rather short with it's simplistic missions and apparant focus on Walker segments. Boss fights are also much too easy.
Each space mission begins in cockpit view, and can be beaten in as little as 30 seconds. 3rd person view involves using the shoulder buttons to [effectivly] manuver, and is too convoluted to use compared to the cockpit view.

While the classic controlls remain for traditional [ground] segments, they're much too short, and again. . .usually put you into walker-form for the boss segments. Save for andross, who's a real pussy this time around.

On top of all this, the main game can be beaten in under 70 minutes.

It's not hard to see why they cancelled it and stuck with Starfox 64.
rather, it's hard to see how a project like this ended up so dissapointing.
when playing the few traditionally controling segments, it's painful to think about what could have been. I've never seen an SuperFX game move so smoothly.

Some of you may enjoy it more than me. . .
So I'm perfectly willing to send the ROM around.

Where can you find the working rom of starfox 2.BTW you know where to find a working rom of Doom for the snes. :D

[Drixxel]

Some of you may enjoy it more than me. . .
So I'm perfectly willing to send the ROM around.

Is that the beta release you're talking about? It sounds like the Star Fox 2 rom you have is pretty much complete compared to the version I've played (the beta), and although it suffered from some serious bugs, I felt it had enough redeeming qualities not used in Star Fox 64 to make it worthy of an individual release, given some extensive tightening up.

If that is indeed a complete Star Fox 2 ROM you have, I'd greatly appreciate a chance to play it. If you could, please send it to reltin@hotmail.com. Thanks, Dartagnan!

[Dartagnan1083]

I say working ROM because I have access to multiple game modes, all the pilots, and saw a credits screen after I managed to beat it. It feels like finished, yet unreleased game.

Although it does say BETA on the file name.

just to be sure. . .
Does this describe the ROM you already have?

[16bitter]

no, it's still possible unless I give it the absolute lightest of taps on the controller. . .which requires too much concentration. Even with light strokes on the Keyboard (when emulating), I've still been able to dulpicate the same 'accidents'. Belmont will actually throw the limp whip without ever doing a standard snap.

Um, I think you just suck. I've NEVER had a problem with whip "accidents" in that game. Not once.

CIV has the best whip mechanics of the series.

[Drixxel]

I say working ROM because I have access to multiple game modes, all the pilots, and saw a credits screen after I managed to beat it. It feels like finished, yet unreleased game.

Although it does say BETA on the file name.

just to be sure. . .
Does this describe the ROM you already have?

From that, chances are it's the same ROM I've played. No need to send 'er over. Still, thanks for making the offer available originally.



..and just for the record, I'm of the opinion that SCIV is awesome. I love that whip. In fact, playing a traditional Castlevania after having experienced multi-directional whipping feels.. incorrect.

[j_factor]

how limp whipping only reappeared once in 'Harmony of Dissonance'

Limp whipping appeared in SOTN, and I think it was in Chi no Rondo.

[Joe Redifer]

Dracula X didn't have any limp whip.

[Dartagnan1083]

when I talk about the limp-whip reappearing, I only take the meat & potatoes of the game into account.

I still managed to beat Cv IV. Even then I felt nothing.
Even if the whip was fixed, that wasnt my primary problem with it.
Difficulty has never been an element that kept me from enjoying a game. . .I managed to make it through Shinobi(ps2) and Ninja Gaiden on the harder modes while other gamers pissed and moaned about how much harder it was than. . .whatever.

The inadvertant limp-whip was a nussance (along with the floaty jumping). . .nothing that infinite continues couldn't fix though, I'm patient enough. So you can imagine my dissapointment when I didn't find anything great that really stood out as I played. Boring levels (due in part to weak asthetics), Boring bosses, and no payoff.

The music wasn't bad, but I had already been spoiled by other soundtracks, and while it was of decent quality in Cv IV, the music had a certain stop&go feel to it. The first level stands out as particularly uninspiring, it sounds like wind blowing through the metal tubing of a chimney. Remixes of classic songs were decent enough, but I was supprised that the game was lacking in any quality original tracks. But then again, it probably has to do with me being spoiled by better soundtracks.

Every other Castlevania game I have played has managed to bring some delight to the play experience in some way (and I've played ALL but 5 of them(VK, CC, COD, and the N64s). Cv IV was underwhelming from start to finish. There's nothing about it that makes me look back and smile.


No sir I didn't like it.
-----------
If I take this any further in this thread. . .feel free to call me a douchebag.
I should have already addressed every problem I have with Cv IV in this post (aside from the infamous ones like 'gratuitous mode 7'. This is so I don't have to type another word about it.

[Ro Nova]

It's funny, there are a few good Genesis sites out there (Sega-16 being the best hands down) but I can't seem to find any SNES dedicated sites. Has anyone found a good SNES site similar to sega-16? You'd think there would be at least a few.

[Joe Redifer]

Castlevania IV is super. That's why they put "Super" in the title. Personally I felt the game was very easy and short, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying it immensely.

[GeckoYamori]

I don't like the whole limp whip thing at all, the only time I actually found it useful was in Harmony of Dissonance.

[Elusive]

There are two StarFox 2 ROMs floating around the Internet; one a very early prerelease, another close-to-final version.

[j_factor]

Castlevania IV is super. That's why they put "Super" in the title. Personally I felt the game was very easy and short, but that doesn't stop me from enjoying it immensely.

Short? If anything, I think Castlevania IV was too long. The last few levels really drag and seem unnecessary, and the game just loses steam.

That said, I like Castlevania IV. It's not my favorite, but I enjoy it. I like that the special weapon isn't up+attack (fuck that control scheme, and fuck IGA for continuing with it unnecessarily). I like whipping in eight directions, although it doesn't really make sense if you think about it (how does one whip straight up with a metal chain whip? uh..). I like the level designs for the first 2/3 of the game. I don't really like the brown visuals, though.

[j_factor]

I don't like the whole limp whip thing at all, the only time I actually found it useful was in Harmony of Dissonance.

I found it very useful in IV for killing ghosts, or enemies hovering below.

[Mendicant]

There are two StarFox 2 ROMs floating around the Internet; one a very early prerelease, another close-to-final version.
AGTP released a patch to "convert" the beta into something resembling a "" version.

To quote directly from their site:


Everything's done, and there are two versions of the patch -- one which just applies the translation (the "debug" version) and one which attempts to remove the non-functional bits and debug functions, to simulate what the game would look like if it were finished. Please be aware that there are a -lot- of different versions of the game floating around; this patch will work on at most three of them, but will not function on poor, earlier versions. Also note that the game's particularly picky insofar as emulators are concerned, so before complaining that the patch doesn't work, try the game unpatched to make sure that doesn't crash your emulator. It ought to work on the roms that goodsnes has labelled "Beta TD" and "J o1" (which is funny, 'cuz the so-called overdump is actually the right size :p)
The patch, NOT THE ROM, is available at http://agtp.romhack.net/starfox2.html

...one more thing.

SCIV was a first generation SNES game. The developers tried taking things in a newer direction, while showing off what the new system was capable of. Hence all the limp whipping & Mode 7 crazyness.

Whether for better or for worse, the first generation of games in any new platforms gererally have a tendency of just going a notch above their predecessor. (After all, a lot of SegaCD games were Cart games with CD Audio.:D ) It's usually the second or even third generation of games that try to push the hardware's limits.

Okay, one MORE thing. Why the "Versus" mentality? Both the Genesis and the SNES have earned a place in videogame history. So, why do some people believe that simply becouse something is good, or even great; everything else must autometically be bad?

[StRiDA CoL]

OMG! :lol:

thats too funny Vorty Mc Vort Vort :lol:

dude, u friggin critisize everything, that u dont like, dude u gotta stop, we kno its your opion, but man, u dont have to go on 3 page rants about stuff.

[lordofduct]

I used to fight about this stuff... back in 1993

[16bitter]

Back to CIV, a little team that would later create the company known as Treasure gave us this masterpiece, as well as the creation of the Contra series as a whole -- it's been so long since I've played the NES games that I can't be sure of whether I consider Contra III their best work of the series.

Here's a question: Gunstar or any Contra game?

[Drixxel]

I do grossly enjoy me that there Contra III, but Gunstar might take it. There are some truly brilliant moments in Contra III.. I remember being so impressed the first time I saw that huge robot skeleton rip through the wall, and riding on that missile.. whoohoo. But really, the whole game is awesome.. I even like the top-down stages, although they obviously aren't a highlight. Hmm.. maybe Contra wins this. Bahh.. why choose.

[j_factor]

I'd take Contra Hard Corps over Gunstar Heroes.

[Obviously]

Gunstar vs. any Contra game, Contra wins. Gunstar is a legend in its own right though.

[Dartagnan1083]

Back to CIV, a little team that would later create the company known as Treasure gave us this masterpiece, as well as the creation of the Contra series as a whole -- it's been so long since I've played the NES games that I can't be sure of whether I consider Contra III their best work of the series.

Here's a question: Gunstar or any Contra game?

You obviously have no Idea what you're talking about.
Treasure did not exist as a team before Gunstar Heroes. . .that is a common missconception though. The original members of treasure (all but 1 of which are still at treasure) originally worked on different projects. While as many as 3 of them may have worked on the same project at once at konami. . .they did not do it as a whole.

your proof is here
http://sfkosmo.classicgaming.gamespy.com/treasure/treasure.html

you can look up information on all the konami games connected to treasure. . .as well as many games falsely atributed to them (which amounts to about 90% of the Contra series).

although you may want to wait untill IGN lifts their new server restrictions (all of the classicgaming network is tied up now).

It's not like treasure is incapable of making garbage either. . .
(*COUGH* Stretch Panic *COUGH* Silpheed II *COUGH* Wario World *COUGH*).

But to answer your question;
Gunstar almost renders the entire Contra franchise useless, as does Metal Slug.

[j_factor]

Gunstar vs. any Contra game, Contra wins. Gunstar is a legend in its own right though.

So you think Contra Force and Legacy of War are better than Gunstar Heroes? :confused:

[16bitter]

Back to CIV, a little team that would later create the company known as Treasure gave us this masterpiece, as well as the creation of the Contra series as a whole -- it's been so long since I've played the NES games that I can't be sure of whether I consider Contra III their best work of the series.

Here's a question: Gunstar or any Contra game?

You obviously have no Idea what you're talking about.

I have many sources on that, and it has always been known that Treasure was a team within Konami that broke ranks to do original content.

If I'm wrong then that's because many sources are wrong, but I'd like to know what source you're working with that trumps all I've read on the subject.


your proof is here
http://sfkosmo.classicgaming.gamespy.com/treasure/treasure.html

That leads nowhere. Certainly not to any content to prove your point.


although you may want to wait untill IGN lifts their new server restrictions (all of the classicgaming network is tied up now).

What's a link that doesn't work prove?


It's not like treasure is incapable of making garbage either. . .
(*COUGH* Stretch Panic *COUGH* Silpheed II *COUGH* Wario World *COUGH*).

Yes, we get it: you hate Castlevania IV with a passion. I wasn't arguing that.

BTW, I guess by your standard this post makes you a...ahem...douchebag. :) Hey, you asked for it.

[Obviously]

I'm not trying to burst your bubble because I'm a fan of Castlevania IV but...

No members of Treasure worked on Castlevania IV.

To quote the Wikipedia...

"Contrary to popular belief, no significant employees were involved in the development of Contra: Hard Corps, Super Castlevania IV, or Tiny Toon Adventures: Buster Busts Loose. However, one to three identifiable employees were involved in the following Konami games:"

This is the list of Konami games that Treasure employees were involved with before the formation of Treasure. And by that I mean one or maybe a few more, not the entire team.

* Aliens (Arcade)
* Axelay (SNES)
* The Castlevania Adventure (Game Boy)
* Castlevania II: Belmont's Revenge (Game Boy)
* Contra (Game Boy)
* Contra III: The Alien Wars (SNES)
* Rocket Knight Adventures (Genesis)
* The Simpsons (Arcade)
* Tiny Toon Adventures: Babs' Big Break (Game Boy)

They were also contracted by Konami to make Gradius V

[16bitter]

Wikipedia is not undeniable fact in the least. There are many inaccuracies involved with them as a reference site.

Oh, and here's an interview that contradicts that specifically:

Q: When did you start Treasure?
A: We officially started the company on June 19, 1992.
Q: What was the reason for starting your own company?
A: I have dreamt of owning my own company since I was young, then after
spending 4 years at Konami I knew this industry was where I belonged, so I
decided to start my own development house.
Q: Where did you get the name Treasure?
A: (Laughing) We want to be a treasure to this industry!
Q: How big is your staff?
A: So far 18 people.
Q: Out of that 18, how many are programmers?
A: Almost everyone here is a programmer.
Q: What are their backgrounds?
A: Almost everyone is from Konami. Their previous titles include Qix,
Bucky O'Hare, and The Simpsons for arcade, and Castlevania 4, Contra 3,
and Axelay for the Super Famicom.
Q: What are their average ages.
A: Our youngest is 19 and our oldest is 37, average is about 27.
Q: What made you decide to leave Konami?
A: Basically, Konami is a huge company, so you cannot create games
freely. Konami's big titles are TMNT, Castlevania, etc... I just couldn't
stand making more sequels, but in order to drive sales sequels must always
be made. When I presented my idea for Gunstar Heroes, they said "no, it
will not sell." You see, they only want the sure thing because they are
such a high profile company.
Q: So have you been able to develop games unrestricted now that you have
Treasure?
A: Not 100%, because we are now working for Sega, also a huge company,
but we do have much more freedom and can do pretty much anything we want,
within reason of course.
Q: Konami is a big 3rd party for Nintendo, so why are you now making
games for Sega?
A: I've always been fascinated with hardware. People are constantly
comparing Mega Drive to Super Famicom, saying that the Super Famicom has
more colours, etc... but the Mega Drive has a 68000 processor, which is
very easy for programmers to work with. I was a programmer for years,
making games for the Super Famicom, and I can tell you, the hardware is a
pain in the butt. If consumers look at a still shot, they may think the
Super Famicom is better, but actually, if you tried to put Gunstar Heroes
onto the Super Famicom, there would be no way. See those bosses? On the
Super Famicom they would slow way down, that movement requires so much
computation. It could only be done on the Sega hardware.
Q: How many colours do you have on screen in Gunstar?
A: Actually, there are 64, but we can make it look like much more by
adding shadow and lighting effects, etc... when you look at Sonic or
Gunstar, you would think that they display more than 64 colours, but they
don't, we just make it look like more. In my opinion, the colour looks as
good as the Super Famicom. We can also make it appear that 3 to 4 screens
are present, although you can supposedly only display 2 (background and
foreground) at once, as I said the hardware is very easy to work with.
All things considered, the 68000 is a very good CPU allowing room for
experimentation while the Super Famicom hardware limits you to their
design standards. Scaling and rotation can be implemented in the Sega
software, forget it on the Super Famicom.
Q: Do you have any plans for cd-rom?
A: Right now, there aren't that many systems out there, but we are
interested in this new hardware. There are no plans now, but perhaps in a
year. But then again, 32-bit is on the way....
Q: Actually, that was my next question. Talk of Sega's 32-bit Saturn
project is all over our offices, what have you heard?
A: All I can say is that it's coming next year and I am looking forward
to it. I am more interested in developing 32-bit than cd-rom.
Q: Since we're on the subject of 32-bit, how about 3DO, will you be
developing games for it?
A: So far we have no plans, at this time we do not have enough employees
to start on a new format. We have just finished our first Sega title and
we have a lot of ideas left over. You see, if you instantly follow new
hardware, a game's substance will be neglected. For instance, 32-bit will
have incredible graphics and fluid full motion, etc... this has nothing
to do with game substance, it is only cosmetics. We will take 16-bit Sega
to it's limits, than pursue 32-bit.
Q: Do you consider the US market when you decide on a project?
A: Of course! Sega is bigger in the US than in Japan, so we absolutely
consider it.
Q: How long did it take to develop Gunstar Heroes?
A: We had the idea, then waited three months for our development system.
From that point, it took seven months.
Q: Were all 18 staff members involved?
A: No, not everyone. We divided into into two teams, one for Gunstar and
one for our McDonald's game. At that time we had 12 people, so six went
to each; two designers, two programmers, and two sound people. We worked
with a vengeance!
Q: Gunstar is 8 megabit, did you compress it?
A: Yes, a lot. It is actually over 16 megabit, play to the end and
you'll see what I mean.
Q: How is the game going over in Japan?
A: Great! As an original game, we rank 4th in the major Japanese
magazines as the most wanted game, behind Street Fighter 2, Shining Force
2, and Virtua Racing.
Q: If you were to rate (Gunstar), what would you give it?
A: There are things we have left over, so I would say 80%. If I give it
100%, that would mean we could never top it, but we can!
Q: Are you thinking about a sequel?
A: I wouldn't say no, but not really.
Q: Your next release is McDonald's (Treasureland). Why did you pick this
character?
A: We didn't, it's for Sega.
Q: How is it?
A: I think it's excellent.
Q: Okay, last two questions. Is there any comment you would like to make
about this industry?
A: Yes, lately all I see are sequels, or translations of popular arcade
games. It is really sad. Consumers are in pursuit of quality and
original game designs, but not many third parties are doing them. We are
going to develop original games only! To sum it up, we present ourselves
a challenge to do new things in the action platform category. We would
like to be the company that makes the Sega Mega Drive number one. We will
think of what would be the most fun, and then develop it.
Q: Any word for the US consumer?
A: We'll be making stupendous games like Gunstar Heroes, so please take
care of Treasure!

[Obviously]

That's the infamous GameFan interview which has inaccuracies. It's not known why he gave that answer but it's since been discovered no one in Treasure had anything to do with it. It's that interview that fueled popular belief. It's also that interview which spawned the false legend that Treasure would never make a sequel.

There's a reason GameFan went out of business and they're unabashed worshipping of Treasure was part of that reason.

[16bitter]

And where has it been proven?

Frankly, my nerd credentials may not be big enough for this debate.

At the same time, I've yet to see any conclusive evidence to support the other side.

[Obviously]

SF Kosmo goes into it in detail but their site seems to be seriously screwed up right now so I can't find the exact quotes.

[16bitter]

That's the infamous GameFan interview which has inaccuracies. It's not known why he gave that answer but it's since been discovered no one in Treasure had anything to do with it. It's that interview that fueled popular belief. It's also that interview which spawned the false legend that Treasure would never make a sequel.

So, what -- did they just make up the whole interview?


There's a reason GameFan went out of business and they're unabashed worshipping of Treasure was part of that reason.

Yes. I'm sure that's what did it. :roll:

[16bitter]

SF Kosmo goes into it in detail but their site seems to be seriously screwed up right now so I can't find the exact quotes.

If Treasure themselves can't be trusted, who can? Even with quotes, it seems we'd simply have competing statements from the same company.

[Obviously]

No, seriously. They started giving just any game that Treasure touched a flawless review and they were raving about Treasure's titles in every issue. Not all of Treasure's games deserve pure gold, Light Crusader for instance is a huge letdown.

I'm not saying that ALONE killed them, but it's an example of them not being very professional.

To be honest it's almost impossible to prove who worked for Konami on the game without the very employee who worked on the game himself saying it directly because Konami did and still does use psuedonyms in their credits.

It's entirely possible that one member of Treasure did work on Castlevania IV beacause they didn't leave Konami until 1992 and now that I'm looking into it again it seems like it's true but it wouldn't make it a Treasure game by a long shot. The members of Treasure never really made a Konami game together except for Gradius V.

[lordofduct]

I don't know, but that sounds like something Treasure would say...

Also... how could game fan already worship the ground Treasure walked on merely months after the release of their ONE AND ONLY GAME!


Although I will agree with the root of this debate. Castlevania IV or Contra or ANY Konami game is NOT a Treasure game... even if a bunch of them worked on it.

It's a fucking Konami game... Konami produced, Konami directed, Konami made the calls and the games were developed by Konami. The work of 1, maybe 2 or even possibly 3 guys from Treasure working on any of those games makes little signifigance to the entirity of the game.

We know and can admit that a lot of Treasures team began from people coming over from Konami and probably had their hands in a LOT of the games developed there.



And hey, what is wrong with praising Treasure? They made superb freaking games. A couple duds here and there (and everyone freakin' has a God damn dud) but in general they made GREAT GAMES!

[Dartagnan1083]

BTW, I guess by your standard this post makes you a...ahem...douchebag. :) Hey, you asked for it.



If I take this any further in this thread. . .feel free to call me a douchebag.
I should have already addressed every problem I have with Cv IV in this post

What I meant was if I mentioned Castlevania IV again directly and my problems with it. I did it so I wouldn't have to address my problems with the game again.

I did not reiterate my hate for it, despite what you may think. I was not asking to be insulted if I posted again, I was asking to be insulted if I explicitly bitched about Cv IV again within the thread (in which case I would have deserved it).

I was merely tearing appart your treasure innacuracies in that post. Because quite frankly, I don;t like the spread of false information if I can prevent it.
The link I provided would normally lead to the best Treasure site on the web. With in depth information that includes lists of who worked on what games before and after Treasure's formation.

[lordofduct]

civilized flame wars aren't as fun...

come on... someone say, "You teh gehz mang!"

[16bitter]

BTW, I guess by your standard this post makes you a...ahem...douchebag. :) Hey, you asked for it.



If I take this any further in this thread. . .feel free to call me a douchebag.
I should have already addressed every problem I have with Cv IV in this post

What I meant was if I mentioned Castlevania IV again directly and my problems with it. I did it so I wouldn't have to address my problems with the game again.

I did not reiterate my hate for it, despite what you may think. I was not asking to be insulted if I posted again, I was asking to be insulted if I explicitly bitched about Cv IV again within the thread (in which case I would have deserved it).

Actually, you were attacking CIV in a roundabout (i.e. you thought I was defending CIV through the Treasure connection) way again, which as far as I'm concerned fits the standard.

If you wanna play a semantic game to insult the same ware, I call that pretty douchie -- and you left the door open, so...


I was merely tearing appart your treasure innacuracies in that post.

So, where did you do this? Um, you didn't.


Because quite frankly, I don;t like the spread of false information if I can prevent it.

A man of the people. Inspiring.


The link I provided would normally lead to the best Treasure site on the web. With in depth information that includes lists of who worked on what games before and after Treasure's formation.

And how do you know this is any mroe accurate than other information, particularly info that comes directly from Treasure?

I could find contradictory evidence from other Treasure sites, as well as one of "the best" Castlevania sites on the net as to SCIV's creation.

So, I'd say it's up for debate.

[Dartagnan1083]

SFkosmo posts accurate information on games produced after treasures formation rather easily

this is because they record the end credits to every game treasure has developed, this goes for the pre-treasure stuff at as well. Sites on the Classicgaming network tend to do their research (unlike the mainstream media) to such a painstaking level that would out-nerd pretty much everyone here.

if you belive I was attacking it in roundabout. . .well, that's your bussiness.
Because I've already made myself as clear as could manage.

EDIT: The most probable cause for me to start this new thing was after I had attempted to get the discussion away from CvIV, you brought it back with a tidbit about treasure's supposed involvement as if I should suddenly be overcome by guilt for behaving the way I have been.
At least that's the way I interpreted it :?
I tend to be rather sensitive to something outright wrong being said in discussion, it's a quirk I have trouble controlling, particularly when I can't place the tone.

[16bitter]

SFkosmo posts accurate information on games produced after treasures formation rather easily

this is because they record the end credits to every game treasure has developed, this goes for the pre-treasure stuff at as well.

Proves nothing. As obviously said, credits don't necessarily tell us who worked on the game. Many people go uncredited in whatever field, or can work under pseudonyms.

Quotes as to Treasure staff being connected to CIV seem to have no bearing on your thinking. Which is odd. If you're about logic and accuracy.

So. Try again.


Sites on the Classicgaming network tend to do their research (unlike the mainstream media) to such a painstaking level that would out-nerd pretty much everyone here.

By looking at credits?

Having contact with the outside world -- including, you know, Treasure employees -- might actually be more helpful than nerdiness.


if you belive I was attacking it in roundabout. . .well, that's your bussiness.
Because I've already made myself as clear as could manage.

It's also your business, because you did it.

You felt the nead to not only attack the Treasure connection, but any idea that this meant it was a quality game as well. That was your point -- and connectively it means you were going after CIV. Simple. And douchie.


EDIT: The most probable cause for me to start this new thing was after I had attempted to get the discussion away from CvIV, you brought it back with a tidbit about treasure's supposed involvement as if I should suddenly be overcome by guilt for behaving the way I have been.

You're projecting. It was what I felt was a fun little fact, not any type of attack on you or your position.

But, by telling us you reacted in such a way, you make my point overt against you -- this was about CIV, as you state above. Which means you're a douchebag by your own standard. Thanks.


At least that's the way I interpreted it :?

Exactly. And you've now made my point for me, douchebag.


I tend to be rather sensitive to something outright wrong being said in discussion,

You've yet to prove that it's outright wrong.


it's a quirk I have trouble controlling, particularly when I can't place the tone.

The quirk appears to be more in line with misplaced arrogance than fact.

[16bitter]

No, seriously. They started giving just any game that Treasure touched a flawless review and they were raving about Treasure's titles in every issue. Not all of Treasure's games deserve pure gold, Light Crusader for instance is a huge letdown.

I'm not saying that ALONE killed them, but it's an example of them not being very professional.

Who in the video game mag industry has ever been that professional? I could point out biases all over the place.

As far as GF, they tended to lean in Sega's direction in the main. Especially early on.

That playing any role in the mag's death... I really don't think so.

Among their readerbase, I doubt many people were having conniptions because whatever Treasure game that appeared garnered a high score -- and I certainly doubt that it would drive many to cancel their sub or quit picking up the mag.

The "hardcore" generally have a hard-on for Treasure anyway, and that was GF's main readership. Which, truthfully, is probably why they died -- too many like-minds and not enough of the mainstream.


To be honest it's almost impossible to prove who worked for Konami on the game without the very employee who worked on the game himself saying it directly because Konami did and still does use psuedonyms in their credits.

It's entirely possible that one member of Treasure did work on Castlevania IV beacause they didn't leave Konami until 1992 and now that I'm looking into it again it seems like it's true but it wouldn't make it a Treasure game by a long shot. The members of Treasure never really made a Konami game together except for Gradius V.

One paragraph to the next, how do you know that Treasure members, plural, didn't make up the team chiefly in charge of CIV if you have no way of knowing specifically who was truly working on it as you also state? Come on.

I've heard that Treasure worked on it multiple times -- including from the Treasure president himself, though he never specified how many worked on it I fully admit -- and I see nothing that outright contradicts that.

Nor have I heard one thing that undermines that GF interview.

You say they were Treasure biased, but what does that have to do with what a Treasure member says in an interview with them? Does that mean that they attributed quotes to him that he did not make? If so, what proof do you have?

If not, what is your argument against the interview? Possible pseudonym-laden credits?

I can't imagine why the word of somebody who was at Konami and heads Treasure wouldn't be at least as good as some fanboys running a credit fetish site. Gotta love the idea of overzealous fans believing they can know more than the people actually involved and creating.

[16bitter]

1-UP:It was this restless sense of creativity that lead to Treasure's founding in the first place. In the early '90s, Maegawa and other future Treasure staff were working as game developers at Konami, which was well on its way to becoming the monolithic software mega-publisher it is today. Working on classic games like Super Castlevania IV (SNES), Contra III: The Alien Wars (SNES), Axelay (SNES) and Bucky O'Hare (arcade, NES), Maegawa and his colleagues began to chafe under the repressive yoke of Konami's management.

Gamespot:"Nintendo 64 Shooter from Treasure

Popular Japanese developer Treasure, known for developing Castlevania 4
and Contra 3 on the Super Nintendo for Konami and such titles as Gunstar
Heroes on the Sega Genesis and Guardian Heroes for the Saturn, is back
with a new title for the Nintendo 64. The company's second title for the
N64 will be a shooting title by the name of Bakuretesu Muteki Bangaioh
(the developer's first title was Yuke Yuke Troublemakers).

Gunstar Heroes fan site, from the classic gaming network: List of Games by Treasure

*Created by Konami, but purportedly with many of the employees that would later form Treasure.
Highlighted: are the games that I have had a chance to play and actually know something about.

*Contra (NES)
*Super C (NES)
*Castlevania (NES)
*Castlevania IV (SNES)
*Contra III (SNES)

Castlevania Realm: For those of you who don't know its history, you'll be interested to know that [Super Castlevania IV] was not created in-house by Konami; rather, it instead commissioned a smaller group of its independent programmers and designers to come up with a concept and make it all work. That group, which came out of nowhere to succeed big time in producing a hit, would later disassociate itself from Konami and become its own game-developing company called "Treasure." It was Konami's loss.

There are many, many more sources that state the same. The evidence has been pervasive and overwhelming in convincing me that Treasure did have something to do with CIV.

Hell, if I'm wrong, then it appears that Maegawa is or was wrong as well. But I've yet to see anything on this thread that contradicts my original point, or his statement.

[lordofduct]

sorry to bring semantics into this, but for something to be "outright wrong" means that it is something that is well known. If I said that the casing of the SEGA Genesis was green would be outright wrong. Someone stating something that you admit no one is 100% about the truth of the matter (who/when/where/what game different members of treasure worked on) along with your admittance that the truth isn't common knowledge means that his statement was not "outright wrong".

It was misinformation, media induced ignorance, pop legend/myth... but not outright wrong.

[ary incorparated]

Okay there where imployees at konami,from treasure,But if treasure overall has such uge quality,why cant they defeat konami in that state,Look at this comparison

Contra 3,Contra hard corps
Hardcorps slaughters the snes version,Maybe its because of the music,And the animations,Atitude that konami has,That why Treasure was pact in the wrong kind of games for them,Treasure omly does techno music and doesnt go for Double flip atitude,maybe thats what made contra 3 a shame even for a snes(who is supposed to be stronger)I think some megadrive can do better sometimes,because the megadrive runs faster and obvious can do more animating,which bring contra HC and Gunstar.there even was a battle between Gunstar heroes and contra Hard corps,While gunstar came out in 93 and Contra HC in 94,There was a extreme battle between which game could produce better,no probe for the genesis owner both games where on Genny so the gamer gets all the credit of Gunstar and Contra trying to improve that,so we got uge explosions and animations in contra to sett the battle aldo Gunstar was impressive,and had those thing,so konami trying to re do that style for competition and bringing atitude with the game.Now its a statement that Konami was contra,Treasure didnt do contra better(employees of treasure)and now days contra sucks. :D

[lordofduct]

no offense... but sometimes it is such a chore to read your posts bro

[Obviously]

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you because you seem to be getting a little steamed and I really have no hostile intentions.

I'm just trying to make you aware that there are some games out there that the gaming media have labled as Treasure involved really can't be proven one way or another. It's a company with a lot of myths surrounding it.

I DON'T know for a fact who worked on Castlevania IV, I've just been told that creditting Treasure for it is a mistake.

It is however proven members worked on Castlevania II, the most drastically different game in the series until Symphony of the Night (And different spins on classic gameplay fits the bill for Treasure), and since this is rarely mentioned sometimes I think it's how the whole "Castlevania IV was Treasure" rumor started.

[Dartagnan1083]

In respect to credits, I feel it does tell us who worked on what with some accuracy. . .since they had to have gotten paid for something. The media tends to make many mistakes, despite their various 'interviews'. . .one example would be the misconception that the Metal Gear franchise originated on the NES. It's FALSE, but it continues to be said by the mainstream media.

But yes, I did make your point because I was admiting to my own faults that I was not originally aware of when I posted my treasure response. At this point, I barely care anymore.

[ary incorparated]

I got the starfox 2 rom,only it sufferes from awefull flicker,my state i dont like the game that much.

[16bitter]

I'm just going to agree to disagree with you because you seem to be getting a little steamed and I really have no hostile intentions.

I'm not getting steamed at all. What I am doing is pointing out the illogic and gaps in your stance.

As far as taking this too personally, I think you have that backwards.


I'm just trying to make you aware that there are some games out there that the gaming media have labled as Treasure involved really can't be proven one way or another. It's a company with a lot of myths surrounding it.

I DON'T know for a fact who worked on Castlevania IV, I've just been told that creditting Treasure for it is a mistake.

Exactly. You're assuming that Treasure had nothing to do with the making of CIV, even though there are many articles and even a quote from their president that they did have something to do with it.

Ridiculous? I'd so say so. Certainly contradictory.

It's also obvious that you're not up to directly debating this. No counter-evidence that really puts any holes in the idea that SCIV came from -- at least SOME -- members of the company that would become Treasure.

Thus, you have to circumvent.


"Castlevania IV was Treasure" rumor started.

What about the quote from the Treasure president saying, flat out, that they had something do with its development?

You refuse to answer to that. Like so much else.

[j_factor]

Okay there where imployees at konami,from treasure,But if treasure overall has such uge quality,why cant they defeat konami in that state,Look at this comparison

Contra 3,Contra hard corps

Arguably, a lot of stuff in Hard Corps is reactionary to Gunstar Heroes. I could go into detail, but I think it's pretty self-explanatory.

Anyway, I don't think it's accurate to say that Treasure was "the team" that did Castlevania IV. Maegewa in that interview does not state that the Castlevania IV team became Treasure, he merely lists it among the games that Treasure people have worked on (and he doesn't say all of them).

He says "Almost everyone is from Konami. Their previous titles include Qix, Bucky O'Hare, and The Simpsons for arcade, and Castlevania 4, Contra 3, and Axelay for the Super Famicom." Their previous titles. Meaning he himself didn't work on every one of those games, otherwise it would be "our". And if he didn't work on all of those games, we can infer that it wasn't a single cohesive team breaking off from Konami, it was different people who had worked on different projects.

edit: Also, Qix is a Taito game. So unless they were one team at Taito and then one team at Konami and then their own company, those games weren't all by the same team.

That GameSpot quote is just lazy journalism on their part. Nothing new from them.

[Obviously]

I'm contradicting myself because I'm conceding that someone in Treasure probably worked on Castlevania IV, but you're assuming that Treausure was a team at Konami before they left. They weren't, considering some of them didn't even work for Konami.

I can't prove anything, you're right, so I'm going to stop trying to defend my point since I just don't have the ammo as you've stated. Things would be a lot easier for both sides of the debate if there were credits to look at but Konami's psuedonym's make that impossible.

Personally my view is still that it's a Konami game - as are the others that Treasure employees have worked on - and I'm not creditting Treasure for it even if over half of the Treasure employees somehow were involved, it still doesn't make it their game.

[16bitter]

I'm contradicting myself because I'm conceding that someone in Treasure probably worked on Castlevania IV, but you're assuming that Treausure was a team at Konami before they left. They weren't, considering some of them didn't even work for Konami.

I'm not assuming anything at this point -- I have admitted that I could be wrong, after all.

At the same time you have not provided a shred of evidence to support your stance.


I can't prove anything, you're right, so I'm going to stop trying to defend my point since I just don't have the ammo as you've stated. Things would be a lot easier for both sides of the debate if there were credits to look at but Konami's psuedonym's make that impossible.

Yes.

Yet going bacj to what was said by Treasure's main man, it can be assumed that -- if he was right, which I'd tend to think he is over other sources -- that they, or at least one of them, had something to do with the creation of CIV.

The debate at this point would be just how much.



Personally my view is still that it's a Konami game - as are the others that Treasure employees have worked on - and I'm not creditting Treasure for it even if over half of the Treasure employees somehow were involved, it still doesn't make it their game.

Semantics like that have little to with what I originally stated. So I don't really get your point.

[Obviously]

The debate at this point would be just how much.

Except it's impossible to debate as previously stated.


Semantics like that have little to with what I originally stated. So I don't really get your point.

It's got nothing to do with the arguement which I'm done with at this point. It's just my final stance on the matter. No use going back and fourth with the same things said over and over again.

[16bitter]

Anyway, I don't think it's accurate to say that Treasure was "the team" that did Castlevania IV.

Has there been anything to directly contradict such an idea? No.


Maegewa in that interview does not state that the Castlevania IV team became Treasure, he merely lists it among the games that Treasure people have worked on (and he doesn't say all of them)

His statement is broad as to what they all had worked on at one time or another, and that doesn't preclude many or a team of them from having worked on one of those games -- including CIV.

What is known is that at least one, possibly multiple Treasure members worked on CIV by his statement. As to how many or how in control any or a group of them were is up for debate.


That GameSpot quote is just lazy journalism on their part. Nothing new from them.

Can you prove that it's wrong?

[16bitter]

The debate at this point would be just how much.

Except it's impossible to debate as previously stated.

As opposed to what?

It seems that, if you were concerned about what should or should not be debated -- by your standard alone, mind you -- you would not have opened this can of worms in the first place considering the total lack of evidence you brought to the table.

Logically, it is debatable because it is not known. If it was known, then it wouldn't be debatable. See?

Backwards.

Not complicated.


It's got nothing to do with the arguement which I'm done with at this point. It's just my final stance on the matter. No use going back and fourth with the same things said over and over again.

Oh, I think it had something to do with it. Such as an attempt by you to try and claim some form of rightness for yourself or side no matter the truth on this matter -- even though it only stems from a subjective standard.

Which rather undermines the statement in totality anyway.

[Obviously]

Will you be happy if I say, "You win"? I'm not changing my side and neither are you.

It's not debatable how many people from Treasure may or may not have worked on Castlevania IV because there's no evidence either way. You'd need the credits which would prove that I'm right except they don't because it doesn't use the real names of several people.

[16bitter]

Will you be happy if I say, "You win"?

Evidently you want the last word. Even though you've stated that you're done with this.

The contradictions are mounting. As is the hypocrisy -- I guess you're allowed to speak your mind at this point, but I should just shut up.

If you give me something I feel should be responded to -- guess what -- I will respond. If you want your place in this to be over and done with, then simply quit responding -- as you've previously said you would.

I'm not obligated to stop answering your posts at all.


I'm not chaning my side and neither are you.

What?


not debatable how many people from Treasure may or may not have worked on Castlevania IV because there's no evidence either way.

It's debatable because it's not known. Very simple.

If it was known -- through a mountain of evidence to one side -- then we would have nothing to debate.

A debate is not strictly defined or made up only through or by evidence. Try again. Or look it up, because you're way off on the meaning of the word or how one partakes in a debate.


You'd need the credits which would prove that I'm right

Huh?

What sense does that statement make when you just said you don't know at all?

So you know you'd be "right" about what exactly if the absolute truth was revealed?

[Obviously]

Typo.

And you didn't read my entire post.

If you READ THE CREDITS, they would support my theory BUT they CAN'T because some of the names have been changed so there's no evidence there for anyone. I promise this will be my final post.

[ary incorparated]

Aaah thanx J factor,maybe youre right,dont like gamespot that much they give unreasonable rates,like matrimelee a 9 and Ranger x a 7,Ign does the same a bit.But still love the reactions in Hard corps,like theres even a sprite laser gun and the rays reflect in every corner,Contra hard corps is more Up to dat then Contra 3,BTW contra hard corps is released 2 years later but genesis is the so called weaker one then takes the benefit of the doubt and proves exually wrong with many games(overall Quality)But one thing and its good both Treasure and konami where feeling the pressure of competing in the same genre,but like Gunstar meets a uniek style while Contra remains but gets a extra layer of toughness and the Hardcore,Luckely they both felt the pressior of concurating,they both brought exellent games for the same system.Like the same with Tekken vs Virtua fighter on ps2,both made em" good cause of competing. :D,Luckely weve got the core for the Hardcore games,Sega Genesis.

[Joe Redifer]

Gaaaa!!! OK here is the true, full story:

Before they became Treaure, all of its members were employees of other companies. One day, one of the future members of Treasure was busy putting the "Super" into Super Castlevania IV. He said to himself "This suckz. I hate this limp whip shit. Pisses me off. I wish someone would start some other company where I could make McDonalds games. That would totally roXxorz!"

And then Treasure was formed and we all enjoyed Gradius V. The end.

[16bitter]

Typo.

And you didn't read my entire post.

If you READ THE CREDITS, they would support my theory

Again, how do you know this when you state yourself that you, uh, don't know? So you know the "truth" even though you have no evidence or any overall or overwhelming reason to believe you're right? Does it get any more contradictory than this?

Highly illogical. And arrogant. Which is a synonym for prideful, which really says it all as to who is truly taking this personally even now.

If you were so sure of the nature of CIV's developm,ent you wouldn't have made the faux pas of claiming not one memberr of Treasure was involved in its creation.


BUT they CAN'T because some of the names have been changed so there's no evidence there for anyone.

Yes, you've said this over and over again. But it proves nothing as far as whether Treasure was behind CIV as a team or not.

You don't know if your theory (which has now shifted from an absolute condemnation of ANY Treasure employess being involved to a semantic question of "how many?" just as I previously stated) would be proven or destroyed at all as to whether Treasure was behind that game -- that's what your above statement actually proves when considered. How can you not see that?

And furthermore, your initial argument was that NO ONE from Treasure worked on Castelvania IV -- that obviously has been proven wrong. Thus your true theory and argument is down the drain altogther anyway.

I'm happy. Whether you can admit you're wrong or not, based on the parameters of this debate and where you started, you quite clearly are do far as it goes when considering your opening salvo and stance.

Either that or actual factual Treasure employees are wrong. I know who I'd trust.


I promise this will be my final post.

I've heard this many times as well. But, like so much else you've said, there's not a shred of evidence to support it -- quite the contrary, actually.

Of course, with this one key matter, you can finally change that.

[j_factor]

What is known is that at least one, possibly multiple Treasure members worked on CIV by his statement. As to how many or how in control any or a group of them were is up for debate.

That's my point. Your post before made an affirmation that the same team created the Contra series, made Castlevania IV, and then created Treasure. That's a bit of a leap from the interview you quoted where he states that one or more individuals in Treasure had worked on those games.

[16bitter]

What is known is that at least one, possibly multiple Treasure members worked on CIV by his statement. As to how many or how in control any or a group of them were is up for debate.

That's my point. Your post before made an affirmation that the same team created the Contra series, made Castlevania IV, and then created Treasure. That's a bit of a leap from the interview you quoted where he states that one or more individuals in Treasure had worked on those games.

And I've stated that it could be wrong -- as well as showing where I got the idea. So your point is rather redundant, bordering on pointless then.

At the same time, you don't deal with how what Gamespot -- and other sources -- said, was at all proven inaccurate or "lazy".

Such an accusation seems to be lacking in any foundation from your side.

As I've said, the truth is in question here -- that does not mean that Treasure, or what would become a great deal of Treasure as a company, have been proven in any way not to have been behind CIV as you, and others, have been pretending is so obvious.

It's rather hypocritical to say this:

j_factor -- Anyway, I don't think it's accurate to say that Treasure was "the team" that did Castlevania IV.

And then complain that a claim is unsubstantiated, especially since I at least sourced the statement from my side multiple times.

You? Well, you're acting as if it's overt that Treasure wasn't behind the game when you have no way of knowing.

Your point about there being a question as to how many at Treasure worked on CIV goes both ways, and is only logical if you admit that it carries over to your side just as much as my opening statement on the matter.

[GeckoYamori]

Okay, this is getting really stupid now.

[Dartagnan1083]

I'll just go ahead and post this
http://www.defunctgames.com/onrunningfeuds/feuds-52.php4

and this
http://www.defunctgames.com/onrunningfeuds/feuds-51.php4

They work, and provide evidence that the mainstream media is both fallible, suspect to vauge generelization, and suspect to pulling information out of their ass.
I only label them as 'evidence' since 'bitter will likely find some way to say that they prove nothing.

EDIT: Outdated, but illustrates a similar point
http://hooligansofthenight.com/index.php?name=News&file=article&sid=33
Behold. . .how Game Informer has no semblance of journalistic integrity

[Melf]

*Pops in head*

Holy shit! Seven pages of fanboy feuding!

Gilda, get the hose!

[FishySaysSpoon]

Wow 7 pages... last time i checked it was only 3.

Anyways I will share my thoughts on the subject. Around the time both systems had been out in stores for a while and I was a lot younger :P my parents gave me the choice of between the two systems for my birthday. At the time I was a mario fan. Mainly because I had a C64 with a mario game, NES with a few mario games and a gameboy. I told them to get me a genesis because it came with sonic 2. A few years later I tried to sell my genesis because I wanted the snes and listed it on ebay. Luckily no one bid on it and I kept it. I was hooked on sonic :P after that I went on to buy every sega system save the master system and every sonic game.

Both systems have their strong points and their weaknesses. We can argue on for 100 more pages. Nothing good will come from this. It is as pointless as the saturn vs ps1 debate. ;)

[Dartagnan1083]

The funny thing is, only the first 2.3 pages concern the SNES vs Genesis.

It suddenly became about Super Castlevania IV,
My hatred of it,
My motives for attacking 16-bitter's fun-fact involving Treasure's connection to Cv IV,
The actual involvement of treasure,
Wether or not treasure existed as an entity prior to gunstar,
The validity of Credits,
The validity of whoever's information,
The nature of 'truth',
Semantics being douchey,
Something about gamefan,
Something about what determines how good/bad an info/nerd source can be.

[16bitter]

I'll just go ahead and post this
http://www.defunctgames.com/onrunningfeuds/feuds-52.php4

and this
http://www.defunctgames.com/onrunningfeuds/feuds-51.php4

They work, and provide evidence that the mainstream media is both fallible, suspect to vauge generelization, and suspect to pulling information out of their ass.

Um, they prove no more than the mainstream side, I'm afraid.

Those links certainly do not prove that you're right in any way on the specifics of our debate.

In fact, these links mean even less since they don't directly relate.


I only label them as 'evidence' since 'bitter will likely find some way to say that they prove nothing.

"[..]find some way"? Well maybe you'd like to point out what they prove specifically as far as what we've been discussing.

Media outlets and people make mistakes all the time, but you have not shown how that connects back to the Treasure issue on here.

It wasn't too hard to find what was wrong with this latest example of your lacking argument. It's also rather amazing that -- seeing as how you claim your side to be obviously right -- that you have provided ZERO evidence that supports it.

Hilarious.

[16bitter]

The funny thing is, only the first 2.3 pages concern the SNES vs Genesis.

It suddenly became about Super Castlevania IV,
My hatred of it,
My motives for attacking 16-bitter's fun-fact involving Treasure's connection to Cv IV,

Which you conceded were connective as to your hatred of that game.

I'm still waiting for your overwheling evidence (or any evidence at all) that shows how I'm "outright wrong" on this matter. So far, you've failed miserably.

Nice show of hyperbole, though.

[ary incorparated]

Maybe youre right 16 bitter,i never proved you wrong cause i dont really know.But since this post is going about that their arent many good snes games which i actually do dissagree with.If snes had so less really quality games,it wouldnt have a feet to stand on in the Hardcore gamers selection,their wouldnt be the battle between the two gigants,plus there are many,many RPG,s on snes,which maybe dont fall in the same tast as every one haves,but that also wouldnt say that much snes titles have a lack of quality,Much games on snes are hyped more DK country,plus Nintendo Kissing parrents asses,plus they still.They care about violence thats why they release To much mario,mario party 1 tm 100,its becoming the Fucking David beckham of the video games,people get bored and even hate the Happy mario meal and his happy friends,Kidz are playing smash Brothers out of frustration but Finally they can beat the hell ot of mario and his Kiddo,s.they gett a OCD problem(obsessive Compulsive Disorder)they keep beating into mario and not for fun nooooh for hate of our Mustached Saddam(hes the fucking devil himself,he lets the kidz drink from the mario milk every single day)So exually mario is all the violence while beeing to cute but the toughts behind mario are horrible,luckely theyve putted the Little Mushroom eating Plumber behind the Bars (Saddamario AKA Satanmario).no but nintendo was the one aggainst atitude always,so snes was limited on action,gore and nudeness. :D .

[Drixxel]

Which you conceded were connective as to your hatred of that game.

I'm still waiting for your overwheling evidence (or any evidence at all) that shows how I'm "outright wrong" on this matter. So far, you've failed miserably.

Nice show of hyperbole, though.

I like Super Castlevania IV.
I like it a lot.
Whoever worked on it, I salute them.
Treasure.. a cool developer.
Any degree of creative influence that any members of Treasure, past or present, had on Super Castlevania IV is impossible to truly determine given the information available online.
LET THIS ARGUMENT DIE.

[j_factor]

As I've said, the truth is in question here -- that does not mean that Treasure, or what would become a great deal of Treasure as a company, have been proven in any way not to have been behind CIV as you, and others, have been pretending is so obvious.

It's rather hypocritical to say this:

j_factor -- Anyway, I don't think it's accurate to say that Treasure was "the team" that did Castlevania IV.

And then complain that a claim is unsubstantiated, especially since I at least sourced the statement from my side multiple times.

You? Well, you're acting as if it's overt that Treasure wasn't behind the game when you have no way of knowing.

I had little inkling on the matter one way or the other until you posted that interview. After reading that interview, I think it is overt that Treasure didn't derive from any one core group, if the interview answers are assumed to be accurate. I don't see how one can come to a different conclusion on that basis, and you have yet to provide any reasoning other than brief quotations from a couple sites that don't list sources.

I made it clear in my earlier reply that I was basing my thoughts on that interview, and you completely ignored my main point. Instead of taking my response in consideration and responding with contributory thoughts of your own, you have taken an overly defensive, "you can't prove I'm wrong" attitude.

I don't know why you're acting hostile towards everyone who questions an assertion of yours on a subject of low importance, and I don't know why you're unwilling to consider any points besides your own. I do wonder why you come on a discussion board to just be disagreeable and not actually discuss things. It's tiresome, so I'm not going to reply on this point any longer, as it's clear there's nothing I or anyone else can say that you'd actually listen to. Feel free to get the last word in with another sanctimonious post in which you ridicule me, and be on your merry way.

[16bitter]

As I've said, the truth is in question here -- that does not mean that Treasure, or what would become a great deal of Treasure as a company, have been proven in any way not to have been behind CIV as you, and others, have been pretending is so obvious.

It's rather hypocritical to say this:

j_factor -- Anyway, I don't think it's accurate to say that Treasure was "the team" that did Castlevania IV.

And then complain that a claim is unsubstantiated, especially since I at least sourced the statement from my side multiple times.

You? Well, you're acting as if it's overt that Treasure wasn't behind the game when you have no way of knowing.

I had little inkling on the matter one way or the other until you posted that interview. After reading that interview, I think it is overt that Treasure didn't derive from any one core group, if the interview answers are assumed to be accurate.

You have no more proof than I do, and I'm merely saying that it's possible that it was a team effort at this time.

So you're now the one coming to conclusions that aren't supported in the evidence presented.


I don't see how one can come to a different conclusion on that basis, and you have yet to provide any reasoning other than brief quotations from a couple sites that don't list sources.

He listed games that Treasure members worked on -- that doesn't preclude team efforts. Logically, you're the one making false assumptions without any facts.

Nice try.


I made it clear in my earlier reply that I was basing my thoughts on that interview, and you completely ignored my main point.

No. I pointed out how ridiculous it was of you to assume that Treasure didn't work on the game based on that interview. My point stands.

And you have yet to provide anything to suggest that it wasn't possible that they did indeed work on it as a team -- though you're falsely assuming that they didn't, and acting as if it should be clear to everyone when the issue is murky at best.


Instead of taking my response in consideration and esponding with contributory thoughts of your own, you have taken an overly defensive, "you can't prove I'm wrong" attitude.

If you're going to say I'm wrong, the funny thing is, I expect you to give me something that supports such a stance. That's too much to ask I take it?

Odd that you think it's hostile of me to defend my position -- i.e. that it is indeed possible that Treasure worked on the game -- but it's just as friendly as can be for you to totally dismiss it without anything to back up such a position.

Ludicrous.


I don't know why you're acting hostile towards everyone

I asked for proof of any kind from your side over and over again, Yet I've gotten nothing but hubristic statements not supported by any evidence.

The hostility is not from my end.


who questions an assertion of yours on a subject of low importance, and I don't know why you're unwilling to consider any points besides your own.

That works both ways, sir.

Over and over again a number of yiou have acted as if its clear that Treasure didn't work on CIV with no proof of any kind to make such a conclusion logical.

If you provide some form of evidence, rather than arrogant dismassal of what little evidence that has been provided (all from my side I might add), then that will be different.

I'm still waiting. And, as I've said, many times now, it is indeed possible that Treasure didn't work on the game as a team -- so it appears that you haven't been paying attention.


I don't know why you're unwilling to consider any points besides your own.

Really? I wonder the same about you.

Funny.

Also laughable that you complain about my hostility and yet get more openly personal than anybody else on here.


I do wonder why you come on a discussion board to just be disagreeable and not actually discuss things.

So now I'm obligated to agree with you?

Whether we agree or not, we are having a discussion. The fact that you can't see that is rather poor form, if not embarrassing for you.


I don't know why you're unwilling to consider any points besides your own.It's tiresome, so I'm not going to reply on this point any longer, as it's clear there's nothing I or anyone else can say that you'd actually listen to.

All you've done is act as if you're right overtly without a shred of proof, while ignoring my points on the matter over and over again.

Now that, that's tiresome.


Feel free to get the last word in with another sanctimonious post in which you ridicule me, and be on your merry way.

And what is the above? Absolute friendliness in a sea of even-handedness?

You're about as hypocritical as they get around here, and you have a distinctly ugly side when you know you have no ammo for your argument -- just as it was on the Saturn issue, it is here.

You never would directly answer me as I have done in response to your points every step of the way. Which is telling.

[16bitter]

Which you conceded were connective as to your hatred of that game.

I'm still waiting for your overwheling evidence (or any evidence at all) that shows how I'm "outright wrong" on this matter. So far, you've failed miserably.

Nice show of hyperbole, though.

I like Super Castlevania IV.
I like it a lot.
Whoever worked on it, I salute them.
Treasure.. a cool developer.
Any degree of creative influence that any members of Treasure, past or present, had on Super Castlevania IV is impossible to truly determine given the information available online.
LET THIS ARGUMENT DIE.

The only reason this argument has continued is because of the oberbearing arrogance and assumptions made by those arguing with me.

I agree with everything you said, because the above is fair and reasonable.

As far as that last point, though, it takes more than one person to argue. So I'd hope that it wasn't directed strictly or only at me.

[Drixxel]

The only reason this argument has continued is because of the oberbearing arrogance and assumptions made by those arguing with me.

I agree with everything you said, because the above is fair and reasonable.

As far as that last point, though, it takes more than one person to argue. So I'd hope that it wasn't directed strictly or only at me.

The point you've been making is that Treasure's SCIV involvement can't be proved either way, and as that claim of yours can't be either validated or invalidated, there is absolutely no point in continuing this particular disucssion. Everyone involved should just drop it.

That being said, I will now go play Super Castlevania IV and enjoy it supremely.

[StRiDA CoL]

wow.

[atsonicpark]

Super Nintendo had a handful of the greatest games of all time.

Genesis has like 400 REALLY GOOD games...

That's the difference.

Zelda is extremely overrated; I'd much rather play Beyond Oasis. Yoshi's Island is EXTREMELY overrated; i'd much rather play many, many Genesis platformers.

On the other hand, the original poster said Super Metroid is "boring as fuck". I'd take that game over ANY Genesis game...

So, I guess, both systems rule. Let's leave it at that. I prefer Genesis, obviously, but there are many great SNES games that no one seems to talk about..

[ary incorparated]

Same for me,i even owned a snes with metriod etc,it fargin ruled.But exually the snes sisnt a graphic monster.etchnically Gunstar boasts Mario world 2 away.I go with genesis,and the snes rulezz to. Even my brother(Die hard Ninfanboy)gives me right that the so called weaker genesis is just way better then snes in many points,i really thinks its about taste and the genres availeble for each system.Megadrive NR1 and snes NR2 in my oppinion

[lordofduct]

when I was a kid the only real reason we debated over it.. me and my friends, was because we could only afford one over the other and well you didn't want to look like a schmuck for having the crappier of the two. It's not like an 8-10 year old had unlimited funds... especially when their mums were on welfare. I was lucky I had a videogame system. Shit... I had my genny/SegaCD combo up until AFTER the saturn died.... never got a PSX either. I finally upgraded just a bit before Sonic Adventure 2 came out (I got the DC Sonic Anniversary pack) It wasn't till then that I made enough money from my jobs to afford it. Before then I worked so little I could hardly afford my clothes and lunch at school (oh and the drugs... can't forget that!)

So you made reasons for why yours was better... I guess some people can't get over it.

Both systems can be had for 5 bucks now a days... stop crying.

[Melf]

But....but Mario was fat and slow! Sonic had 'tude! :p

[ary incorparated]

Mario was Chubby indeed and never lost weight aldo he was running and stuff,Ooh yeah snes wasnt that fast.But Lordofduct,druggs are bbadd and expensiv,i only do drugs when im drunk,I dont care why you started drugs,but itl shure have its reasons for it.Did you quit drugs,because then you would save yourself a whole lot of money,i can imagine how hard quiting is but is the good way.Im more drunk then drugged,and i like the funny effect evrything is turning around,really gets my boost.

[Vorty]

What?

[Drixxel]

Hahahaha... your first post after eight pages of ridiculousness in a thread you started, and it's that. Classic.

[ary incorparated]

I'd take Contra Hard Corps over Gunstar Heroes.

I take Gunstar heroes over any contra except contra hard corps,Contra 3 vs gunstar,Gunstar has way way more action in screen and better music,Themes are better and a lush of animation.Contra hard corps sets its convidential attidtude ,Hard core,Gore,Hard guitar,provit of better guitar samples then any contra(classic contra)i think Gunstar and contra HC are almost on the same level in quality,But since contra HC is the best of the whole series and gunstar is a show off in Graphics and colour,I choose Cntra HC with 0,25 pionts over Gunstar.here in Holland Contra (probotecor)3 was negleckted even the special Mode 7 technics,Most people here see it as a Non animated and stiff game with Damn boring music and a Bit of a Fum lack<in my oppinion i really agree,it looked almost like i was playing a graphic updated version of one of the nes contra,s,and those mode 7 levels look kinda boring and slow,A thats what contra 3 repressents a bit slowness,I like ever contra on nes and hard corps,i got bored by contra 3 within 3 min,even my brother,the hard core Ninfanboy defnitly agreed with me and als agreed that megadrive got the provit with contra hard corps.

[ary incorparated]

16bitter Dk 3 is way better then 2,It lets you enjoy guitr music in one level,Hear me guitar on snes that sound memorable and just plain damn good for a snes,Not megadrive but jsut good and tight,Pitched.BTW snes could do nice guitar samples for shure,not much but in some games like rock and roll racing,over top rally the guitar synth sound just nice aldo Rock and roll racing on snes sounds better then the MD version.

[16bitter]

Super Nintendo had a handful of the greatest games of all time.

Genesis has like 400 REALLY GOOD games...

So, I guess, both systems rule. Let's leave it at that. I prefer Genesis, obviously, but there are many great SNES games that no one seems to talk about..

As I said earlier, I don't know if I prefer either overall.

The Genesis feels, as far as general challenge and gameplay paradigm/parameters, oddly more closely aligned as the NES's successor than the SNES. By that I mean that more often the challenge and need to beat a game on the Genesis was of higher value than the SNES -- like the NES, the Genesis had many games where "quality" seemed less important to me than beating the game; which I suppose is a mark of quality itself.

In that same line of thought, the Genesis tended to have games of higher difficulty, IMO. Many SNES sequels to classic NES games, on the other hand, feel watered down as far as challenge.

[ary incorparated]

Aaah no Fanboyism snes was great,it had its Pro,s I played nes allot maybe that made me play genesis allot because genesis feels more like a new nes to me because back then the graphics and sound werent great on genny but the feeling was grea,same with nes.I think nes is better then snes weird tought but my uppinion.

[DrunkHeadbanger]

Super Aleste is great

[j_factor]

Super Aleste sucks. The only decent SNES shooters are Axelay, Space Megaforce, and UN Squadron.

[GeckoYamori]

I assume you left out R-Type 3 cause it's more than decent.

[j_factor]

No, I left out R-Type 3 because it's terrible.

[lemmy_kilmister]

Super Aleste sucks. The only decent SNES shooters are Axelay, Space Megaforce, and UN Squadron.


Um, Super Aleste and Space Megaforce are the same game, dude.

[j_factor]

hah. I can't believe nobody caught that right away.

[Dartagnan1083]

Bio-Metal is OK as well.
just as long as you can stomach the repetitive 'Stadium' music.

(serriously, the music seems like it was ripped straight from the PHX-SUNS 92-93 season).

[ary incorparated]

crap,R type 3 is crap.way to hell and damned slow,darn you 2,56 mhz snes.crap slow thing with graphics.TF force and musha eat em all.

[DrunkHeadbanger]

Um, Super Aleste and Space Megaforce are the same game, dude.

hah I wanted to say that too you were faster than me for that reply.

Firepower 2000 (Mega SWIV) is OK in my opinion. The Weapon's power ups are kind of lame, but it can be fun in two player mode with the chopper and armored SUV.

[Drixxel]

No, I left out R-Type 3 because it's terrible.

Could you substantiate that opinion just a tad?

[Melf]

I know the GBA port of R-Type 3 is crap, but I was under the impression that the SNES one was pretty good (never played it).

[Drixxel]

R-Type 3 is a pretty rockin' game in my opinion. I've yet to play the GBA port, but Melf's opinion seems to be pretty universal through what I've read of it. Honestly, though, SNES R-Type 3 is a great shooter. Levels are rather devilish until you get a feel for their layout, but they're fun to play through, and there's no shortage of shit going on. The three different force devices offer a weapon variety lacking from previous R-Types, control is tight, and the game offers a good challenge. No way is it a terrible game.


Bio-Metal is OK as well.
just as long as you can stomach the repetitive 'Stadium' music.

(serriously, the music seems like it was ripped straight from the PHX-SUNS 92-93 season).

While I have only played through the first stage of BioMetal, it seems that the developers, in lieu of any cunning enemy attack formations of their own, just made every enemy craft chug mindlessly forward while firing shit loads of bullets in your direction. Does the game improve at all after stage one?

[j_factor]

I find R-Type III needlessly frustrating because I keep running into walls and dying. There'll be no wall on the bottom of the screen for a while, and then all of a sudden, BAM, a wall out of nowhere, so if you happened to be on the bottom of the screen, you're SOL. I generally dislike having walls kill you at all, and R-Type III takes it further by making deadly walls part of the level design.

Also, the music reminds me of Battletoads in Battlemaniacs. And not in a good way.

Another thing I didn't like was how the screen would occasionally get cluttered unnecessarily. As a quick example here's a pic from the first level:

http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/3631/rtype30zz.jpg

Those things aren't actually enemies. They're just these things that sit there and hope you ram into them. And wtf is with that foreground?

[extrarice]

Right, the GBA port of Rtype 3 is crap. The company that was picked to do the port was given no support from Irem - no original source materials, such as sprites, music, level designs, anything. From what I've read, it was basically reverse-engineered. The porting house did a good job with what they had, but the final output is nothing close to the SNES version.

[Drixxel]

I find R-Type III needlessly frustrating because I keep running into walls and dying. There'll be no wall on the bottom of the screen for a while, and then all of a sudden, BAM, a wall out of nowhere, so if you happened to be on the bottom of the screen, you're SOL. I generally dislike having walls kill you at all, and R-Type III takes it further by making deadly walls part of the level design.

Also, the music reminds me of Battletoads in Battlemaniacs. And not in a good way.

Another thing I didn't like was how the screen would occasionally get cluttered unnecessarily. As a quick example here's a pic from the first level:

http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/3631/rtype30zz.jpg

Those things aren't actually enemies. They're just these things that sit there and hope you ram into them. And wtf is with that foreground?

That space debris is easily dispatched with simple firepower. The foreground is there for maybe ten seconds, and it doesn't really obscure much of the screen while it's zooming past. As for deadly surprise walls, it's the kind of thing that you learn to expect after a couple lives lost. Like any shooter, eventually it all becomes memorized anyway. Personally, I find that kind of tricky level design far more engaging than, say, a more old-school shmup in the vein of something like ol' Slap Fight - navigating sinister layouts is nothing new to R-Type anyway.

Anyways.. to summarize, were you to spend more time with R-Type III, you would surely come to enjoy it.

[extrarice]

Personally, I find that kind of tricky level design far more engaging than, say, a more old-school shmup in the vein of something like ol' Slap Fight - navigating sinister layouts is nothing new to R-Type anyway.
Right. The R-Type series has always been about memorization and pattern recognition, whereas other shooters such as Gradius are purely twitch shmups. Some people like the former, some like the latter, some both and some neither. Three cheers for variety! :D

[Dartagnan1083]

R-type involves too much thinking as opposed to shooting.
This applies accross most of the franchise.
The exceptions that I have noticed are R-type Leo and FINAL. I haven't gotten around to playing DELTA yet.


R-type III added extra Force modes, longer levels, and more of the ever bloated Mode-7. I really couldn't stomach it for very long. I have gone back a few times, but I ultimately remembered why I didn't stick with it each time.

I don't feel I should memorize all the generalized safe spots and Force-launch spots.
but that's the key to success in every R-type.

You could argue that memorization is rewarded in every shmup.
But R-type games are unique in that most of the fireing patterns are relativly set in stone provided you take the intended 'safe-path'
while many other shmups will let you move around a bit more. . .as no 1 place is completely 'safe'.


and now to quote a great statement;
"R-Type is a video game "classic" in the same way Birth of a Nation is a movie "classic." Okay, so R-Type may not be a racist tribute to the Ku Klux Klan, but they're both highly regarded turning points for their respective artistic fields that just aren't relevant today. R-Type is slow, plodding, and memorization heavy; don't waste your time with its archaic design."

[extrarice]

R-type involves too much thinking as opposed to shooting.
This applies accross most of the franchise.
The exceptions that I have noticed are R-type Leo and FINAL. I haven't gotten around to playing DELTA yet.
Delta is closest in feel and gameplay to R-Type 1. Leo is thought of as the "bastard child" of the franchise, as it was so radically different than the others. Final was too much "ZOMG look we can swing the background around this way...and THAT way!!", but was a good swan song (especially since you can unlock a buttload of different ships, including the ship from the NeoGeo knockoff "Pulstar").

and now to quote a great statement;
"R-Type is a video game "classic" in the same way Birth of a Nation is a movie "classic." Okay, so R-Type may not be a racist tribute to the Ku Klux Klan, but they're both highly regarded turning points for their respective artistic fields that just aren't relevant today. R-Type is slow, plodding, and memorization heavy; don't waste your time with its archaic design."
*shrug* Different strokes for different folks, I suppose. :p Me, I get tired of the "endless wave" style of shmups and find the memorization aspecs of R-Type refreshing. But when I do want a twitch shmup, I'll pop in SNES Gradius 3 on Arcade mode. Now, Ikaruga is a whole other ball of wax - another "thinking"-type shmup, superb in its minimalism. But I digress.

[Nintendon't]

Does anyone have any love for Starfox around here? I can't get enough of that game lately. It had that Super FX chip graphics accelerator built into the cart right? Was anything similar even possible to install and operate in Genesis carts?

I have been playing Starfox on the SNES a lot recently. For some reason I love the game, while I hate the N64 version.

I personally like the SNES more than the Genesis but I love both systems. The SNES has the more memorable games like Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 3, Super Mario RPG, Kirby Superstar, and Link to the Past. The Genesis is almost as good but one thing that is good and bad about the system is that most of the games don't have a password or battery save. It does extend the life of most games but it isn't fun having to play for an hour and a half straight to beat all the levels in Sonic and then losing all your lives in the last 2 levels. :bang:

[j_factor]

Anyways.. to summarize, were you to spend more time with R-Type III, you would surely come to enjoy it.

There is no shortage of games that I can enjoy right off, so I see no reason to bother myself playing games that I have to invest time into before I can enjoy them. *shrug*

[ary incorparated]

I have been playing Starfox on the SNES a lot recently. For some reason I love the game, while I hate the N64 version.

I personally like the SNES more than the Genesis but I love both systems. The SNES has the more memorable games like Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy 3, Super Mario RPG, Kirby Superstar, and Link to the Past. The Genesis is almost as good but one thing that is good and bad about the system is that most of the games don't have a password or battery save. It does extend the life of most games but it isn't fun having to play for an hour and a half straight to beat all the levels in Sonic and then losing all your lives in the last 2 levels. :bang:


We had these discussion many times,its a uppinion,i agree that snes is great for its save functions that increased the lenght of the game and the fun of duration,Mario world best game on that system IMHO.i like em both but megfadrive has megacd as a add,(Flop but hell sales dont say anything) i know that prices where a big point back then mega cd was just to expensive but it had the greatest game music and graphics where cutting edge the new and improved 3D effects,nowdays its just retro fun for bargin prices,now its doable and thats cool,i still stay with that you better can buy some games like Chrono trigger etc then one sick priced neo geo AES game,3 rare snes games,RPG can be ways more fun then 300 bucks for a neo geo cartridge.I like genesis more cuase Jup of the speed,i found snes bothering slow somethimes,but not a big deal,and the genesis had more adult games and metall synth comix zone and contra HC etc.But metall and rock and roll racing on snes does great for one example ant i think the only example.My love for nintendo hgas grown,not as much as for sega but im looking forward to the WIIIIIII yes i think its going to be a dream come true only not sega.Ds is great and always loved the nes and n64,snes was great but creeping slow even slowwer then a master systemn i think dunno for shure.Ehy DBZ for that system it has real choppy anymations sore the frames are almost to slow thats bit ugly,FF 3 is a great game and that was the reason to own that thing for me.Cough to much talking sorry for that.

[ary incorparated]

I find R-Type III needlessly frustrating because I keep running into walls and dying. There'll be no wall on the bottom of the screen for a while, and then all of a sudden, BAM, a wall out of nowhere, so if you happened to be on the bottom of the screen, you're SOL. I generally dislike having walls kill you at all, and R-Type III takes it further by making deadly walls part of the level design.

Also, the music reminds me of Battletoads in Battlemaniacs. And not in a good way.

Another thing I didn't like was how the screen would occasionally get cluttered unnecessarily. As a quick example here's a pic from the first level:

http://img322.imageshack.us/img322/3631/rtype30zz.jpg

Those things aren't actually enemies. They're just these things that sit there and hope you ram into them. And wtf is with that foreground?

Those graphics make me puke so tiny and the resolution looks crap,really empty and one colored,sorry but this doesnt look nice at all far way from it,blech.

[Joe Redifer]

Most SNES games saved? That's news to me. I'm not a huge RPG fan and even less of a SQUARE fan so the SNES doesn't have the same sort of attraction to me as to Square-o-philes.

Also, games like Sonic don't really need a battery unless they are mega-long. Sonic 3 had a save function. Sonic 1 and 2 had level selects. There are always ways for the less-skilled player to make it to the end in those games.

[David J.]

As I said years ago, both are great systems, each has their pros and cons. However... What really kills the SNES for me, is some of the most common games are expensive.

Like I'm paying $20 for a loose cart of Yoshi's Island. The game has a Players Choice release, and still sells for a lot. WTH? There's only twenty games I really like on the SNES, but they are solid games that'll keep me happy.

ps. anyone have a loose copy of Yoshi's Island for sale, a cheap one at that?

[Joe Redifer]

So does anyone know if there are any software region lock outs implemented in any SNES/Super Famicom games? All of my Super Famicom games work perfectly well on my US Super Nintendo, but there are a few more I'd like to get including the 48-meg Tales of Phantasia... just to have it (plus for the kick ass sound test). The game goes for about as much as the OST, so I might as well have the game!

[Drixxel]

So does anyone know if there are any software region lock outs implemented in any SNES/Super Famicom games? All of my Super Famicom games work perfectly well on my US Super Nintendo, but there are a few more I'd like to get including the 48-meg Tales of Phantasia... just to have it (plus for the kick ass sound test). The game goes for about as much as the OST, so I might as well have the game!

As I understand it, the only form of regional lockout preventing the play of Super Famicom games on a SNES is the shape of the cartridge, but you've clearly schemed around this. PAL games are another case entirely, but I've read that all Super Famicom games are playable on a SNES, and vice-versa, as there is no form of software or hardware lockout beyond the conflicting cartridge/slot shapes. Tales of Phantasia it up proper!

[Joe Redifer]

Oh hellz yeah!

[Curryman123]

Donkey Kong Country is S***-Well i found Vectorman to be even more of a S***, seriously it blows big time, the game is just mindless, makes donkey kong look like an masterpeice.

Castlevania 4 is S***-then you must think bloodlines is s*** too, If you don't, then you nothing more then a fanboy.

I will take Super Metroid, Zelda 3, and Donkey kong country over any all top 5 genesis games any time.

[GeckoYamori]

Oh, burn topic, burn!

[ary incorparated]

aah whos the mindless fanboy now then,we give snes games our chance,I have to admit every consoles have their minors and pros, accept people uppinion,proove me in every way every possible way why snes is better with atleast a 50% above then genesis,ill bet you name all the fanboy crap possible aggainst Genesis,if you like snes it would state that genesis is crap,sorry but when comparring you may grab vectorman vs DK country,yes you may DK uses photo kind of layes digitalized graphics whci look bitsy like clay but still fine,and genesis vectorman has the effects of scalling rotating,Transparancies,Darken Highlight animations filled with animations ehy,shure vectorman has minors technically but its hell of a good looking game and plays great.Final geneisis is far way not so called weak,it has much power and things that been proven wrong,and snes is great too for its clear sound and hioh color stunt race fx rock and roll racing etc,both have their games.Its like comparring bananas with peaches,its about taste but normally people like both for theyre games,BK2 Final fight 3,etc etc both nice games.Which one better is none,which one you find better is a choise but youre choice would not stop gamers form playing veccie cose you sead its shit but they stil keep playing.

[ary incorparated]

same as sead snes has mode 7 blah blah blah big medial blow upp,same snes has a shite processor and is slow,how the heck okay DBZ HPDimension looks nice but is animated almosty to choppy and slow.the graphic play on snes is fine we know,but still people are droowling over their famicon and play old famicon games and like the game music of it and then nagg about genesis sound when only hearring games like hang opn and Altred beast,geez the crap about genesis its limited sound is pushed far away genesis is not limited to me in any way of a 16 bit console,it only didnt feel the need to do the 256 color trick etc,and for the snesboys genesis has 512 colors per level while snes mostly uses allot lesser.The sound chip in genesis isnt limited print it in youre head if you forget listening TF4,Genesis sound chip 10 channels(TF uses em all) snes 8,compare the sound from DK 3,s lava level(still awesome) with Tf4 or Contra hc,limited i dont think so,not always as good,but famicon was lesser TG16 also and lot of others and they dont complain about that then,tisk tisk.One question neo geo simply was called 24 bit cause of the mian processor+Z80 is 24,genesis has the z80 and used it some time F22 interceptor yuck why still looks dick ugly.Coul genesis increase its in screen colors also with the z80+68000 processor in serie?.TG 16 has 512 colors and same stuff graphically as genesis kind of and can use more inscreen also.

[Curryman123]

Your not serious right, not only vectorman plays like S*** it looks like S***, theres no excuse, it came after freaken DKC.

DKC is a milestone in gaming, whats vectorman, nothing.

The only reason to hate DKC is if you a religous sega fan what ever you call it and don't give me C**** stating how bad it is, cause there nothing bad about it that i see, tons of replay and levels.

I just found that comment very offending.

[segagamer]

If anyone doesn't know by now, Curryman is a huge SNES Fan Boy.

[Joe Redifer]

Vectorman, despite putting well over 64 colors oncreen for the entire game, looks like crap. Donkey Kong Country, despite the hype, looks like crap. I cannot stand digitized CGI sprites. This goes for any game that does it.

[Zebbe]

DKC is boring. I prefer Alex Kidd in Miracle World. Graphics aren't everything.

[GeckoYamori]

This thread is going circles now. I'm waiting for the Treasure/CV4 argument to come back and span another 500 pages.

[ary incorparated]

naah boring.since this is a snes page and we talk normal about the snes cause some may like it more and some dont,nothing to do with fanboyism Curryman,i love the snes still.Yopure a big fanboy,who cares if you find vectorman shit,not everybody likes those games obviously,but the graphics in DC are bit pictured and animationless if you didnt notice,but hell with the graphic nagging,i like DK country 1 tm 3 very much and the graphics are just fine in my uppinion.much system have their qualitys but some people neglect em those so called fanboys"just shouting nintendo while never really played a single genesis game and hate the system till it buyes its own grave"or those guys whoe post a video of betaing up a genesis and emberasing em self pitty dudes.Curryman genesis is not crap and sertainly not for its graphics ey,Aladin not one snes game can match those animations like been sead.I like DK country and vectorman both,hell if its digitized like been sead graphics aint the most important thing gameplay is good in DK country and vectorman.im not a fanboy cause im going to buy the Wii and had a GBC before i started sega sooo whos the fanboy now Mister snes.

[ary incorparated]

I dont give a crap about DKC then i would sound like a curryman,DKC is shit DKC is crap DKC looks crap,did anyone say it litterly or did people say i just dont like it,ehy thats a diffrence.I like em both but if you want to be so pathetic and compare genesis vs and state genesis nothing the youre defnitly just a pathetioc fanboy.Vectorman is shite idiot did the game sell none dop retro gamers hate it noo youre uippinion is that you find it shite,youre beeing negative about vectorman and im not about DKC overall.Youre a Fanboy end o line snes could be better but that only a uppinion gett that go find something about snes thats intresting to talk about.

[ary incorparated]

Vectorman, despite putting well over 64 colors oncreen for the entire game, looks like crap. Donkey Kong Country, despite the hype, looks like crap. I cannot stand digitized CGI sprites. This goes for any game that does it..For You how about Doom troopers ill bet its youre faforite.

[Joe Redifer]

What?

[Melf]

Did I flashback to 1992? Is there seriously a Genesis vs. SNES argument going on here? :lol:

[ary incorparated]

neeh im over with it,play what you like words cant change that,let joe enjoy Doom troopers,we all know its a digitized crap game but if joe loves those clay looking photo alike graphics let him play the game,and as a apaticer DKC what do you say all 3 games of DKC no probe enjoy em for the vacation.

[Joe Redifer]

Doom Troopers? I barely even know what that is. Are you sure you exist in our world, Ary?

[Melf]

You haven't played Doom Troopers? We have a review (http://www.sega-16.com/Review-%20Doom%20Troopers.htm) of it and everything!

[Joe Redifer]

Nope, doesn't look like I have. Was it a really late release? It must have been otherwise I would have rented it since I rented everything I didn't otherwise buy.

[Curryman123]

For anyone who hates DKC for whatever dum reasons, please play through the entire game and do it without the bias for crist sakes. I find many people who put it down cause it was hyped, is nintendo game and just for pointless reasons.

[Nazza]

Could anyone give me a list of good SNES games, since I practically know nothing about it (excepting Mario)?

[Joe Redifer]

Curryman you act as if disliking Donkey Kong Country for any reason is as unnatural as a growing a third arm. You are going to have to accept the fact that not all opinions are the same as yours.

Some good SNES games:

Super Castlevania IV
F-Zero
Pilotwings
Contra III
Jaki Crush
Cosmo Gang: The Video
Turtles IV
Axelay (though a bit slow)
Street Fighter II Turbo

And many people say the RPGs are good.

[Nazza]

K thanks, my friend sent me a SNESmulator a while ago because he wanted me to play Seiken Densetsu 3. It was pretty good.

[j_factor]

The Twisted Tales of Spike McFang is one of the best games ever.

[Drixxel]

The Twisted Tales of Spike McFang is one of the best games ever.

I started a new game in that not long ago. It be a good one.

Nazza, I made up a list of worthwhile SNES titles in an earlier SNES thread. Here she be, with a few modifications. There are undoubtedly some games I'm forgetting about.



>>>ACTION (shmups, action-platformers, run 'n guns, overhead shooters, etc.):


Axelay ... the mode 7 effects are a little ugly, but it's an excellent shooter otherwise, and not as difficult as gaming lore would lead you to believe.

Contra III: The Alien Wars ... well, it's Contra. Many find the mode 7 levels a bit lame, but this is one action-packed blastfest of a game.

Cybernator ... I don't like it as much as others do, but there is some stellar mecha action to be had here.

Gradius III ... one of my favourite shooters, although it suffers from frequent slowdown and new players will undoubtedly suffer from frequent cheap killings.

Hagane ... a tight dose of action with a good variety of selectable weapons, a futuristic Japanese setting, and a feel very reminiscent of Ninja Spirit.

Metal Warriors ... Cybernator-like gameplay, only a little less inspired in my opinion. Still a fun game.

Ninja Gaiden Trilogy ... a barebones and underwhelming compilation, but regardless of the presentation, these are great games.

Nosferatu ... Fairly deep hand-to-hand combat with Prince of Persia-like level design, but more fluid control.

Operation Logic Bomb ... one of my favourite overhead shooters.

Pocky & Rocky 1 & 2 ... great overhead scrolling shooters, both of 'em.

Run Saber ... a very servicable Strider-styled action romp.

R-Type III: The Third Lightning ... an epic shooter.

Starfox ... superb rail shooter. Dated 3D graphics perhaps, but I can still have a great time with it.

Super Bomberman 1 & 2 ... While they truly shine in multiplayer, the single player modes are entertaining enough to be worth investing time in.

Super R-Type ... a solid R-Type instalment.

Super Smash TV ... quite the action classic.. very intense overhead shooter.

Super Punch-Out ... probably the finest arcade-styled boxing game ever. Somewhat outrageous and very engaging.

Super Turrican ... an excellent (if a bit disorganized in feel) run 'n gun - large levels, plenty of exploding things.

Super Turrican 2 ... a more straightforward blast fest than its predecessor, but still quite intense and fun.

U.N. Squadron ... a fine choice for when you're craving a shooter grounded at least a little more in reality.


>>>PLATFORM:


Aero the Acrobat 2 ... far superior to Aero 1, mostly due to greater diversity in the stages.

Kirby Super Star ... the finest Kirby outing. Get it.

Plok ... a very unique and artistic limb-hurlin' platformer.

Sky Blazer ... I just started playing this, so I'm not entirely sure what to make of it yet, but I've heard good things.

Super Bonk ...not as strong as Bonk 1 and 2 for the TG-16, but it still entertains.

Super Castlevania IV ... a fantastic Castlevania instalment.. very effective control innovations increase playability considerably when compared to earlier Castlevanias.

Super Ghouls 'N Ghosts ... it plays slower than Ghouls 'N Ghosts, and the level design and challenge can be unrelenting at times, but it feels genuinely rewarding when one does well in this game.

Super Mario All-Stars ... well, it's quite the thorough dosage of Mario. A well-done facelift.

Super Mario World ... an enormous, marvelous game. The only detractor is an awkward save system.

Yoshi's Island ... Baby Mario's screeching tends to annoy many, but what you have here is an absolutely amazing, lengthy platformer.


>>>FIGHTING:


Mortal Kombat II ... I find it hard to play Genesis MKII after having played this for so many years. Definately the version to go for, in my opinion.

Saturday Night Slam Masters ... a great fighting/wrestling game. Not much difference between it and its Genesis counterpart, but this genre's recommendations are looking pretty bare without it.

Super Street Fighter II Turbo ... I personally prefer SFII: Special Champion Edition for Genesis simply because of the six-button controller, but this is a very well done arcade port.

World Heroes II ... An interesting selection of characters makes this one worth playing. It handles better than most SFII clones.


>>>BEAT-'EM-UP:


Captain Commando ... a solid, worthwhile beat-'em-up

Combatribes ... if you can get past the somewhat goofy look of it, this is a fun one.

King of the Monsters 2 ... there's really not a whole lot to it, but with two players, you'll have a good time churning through the horizontal scroll and freakish boss fights.

Knights of the Round ... I've played though this one many, many times.. one of the best beat-'em-ups for SNES.

Legend ... another medieval beat-'em-up. It's a little sluggish, but worthy of a test run at the very least. I am personally quite fond of it.

Peace Keepers ... like Captain Commando, it's solid indeed.

Super Double Dragon ... strangely choppy, but an excellent beat-'em-up in keeping with the Double Dragon tradition.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles IV: Turtles In Time ... a far superior alternative to the Genesis' Hyperstone Heist.

The Ninja Warriors ... repetitive, but what beat-'em-up isn't, really? Takes place on a truly 2D plane, but there's plenty to beat up, and damn, do these characters do it well.


>>>RPG:


Chrono Trigger ... overrated, perhaps, but there is a lot to like about Chrono Trigger. The less rigid feel to the battles, the sprawling storyline, the variety of characters, the Tech system -- all of these combine for a quality product.

Earthbound ... Damn, what a strange game.. but how very awesome. It may require an open mind to accept the simplified graphical style of it, but this is an RPG I have no hesitation in describing as supremely unique and worthy of your time.

Final Fantasy III ... Well, what can I say.. it's so widely loved for a reason. Great characters and storyline, and while Espers may not be as cool as the job system of FFV, there is still a lot of depth in terms of stat development.

Secret of Mana ... Unless you're playing with at least another human, the game doesn't reach it's true potential, but it's still rather a great action RPG. As far as combat is concerned, it's layed out more like a turn-based system than action RPGs you are probably used to. It features some very "creative" collision detection at times.. but don't let that deter you.

Robotrek ... not a classic, and fairly simplistic in nature, but the translation (example: "Evil is good. Evil is the job.") is almost enough to keep you playing on its own.

Shadowrun ... Gritty, moody, great.

Soul Blazer ... a cooly executed blend of Gauntlet-styled combat (complete with enemy spawn points), creative storyline, and exploration. The first of a series of three, and they're all pretty groovy games, although Terranigma (#3) never saw a North American release, in spite of receiving an English translation.

Super Mario RPG ... the pre-rendered graphics are a modern turn-off, but play the game anyway.

Super Ninja Boy ... Outrageous, startlingly translated, and an entertaining (ableit very sloppy) quest through "Chinaland." Culture Brain put out some wacky shit..

The Legend of Zelda: A Link To The Past ... If you have even a vague fondness for Zelda, this one is almost too obvious.

Ys III: Wanderers From Ys ... I've been told this is probably the worst version available, but having not played the rest, I dig it. Muchly.


>>>Games that don't quite fit into any of the above genres, but are dang cool:


Actraiser ... unique blend of side-scrolling action and town-building simulation. Very groovy.

Arkanoid: Doh It Again ... well, if you enjoy the ol' Breakout formula, this one's pretty obvious.

E.V.O. - The Search For Eden ... a surprisingly absorbing evolution simulation - very action oriented.

Demon's Crest ... one of the greats, in my opinion. Fantastic atmosphere, an abundance of exploration, and an excellent soundtrack.

Pac-Man 2: The New Adventures ... billed as an "interactive cartoon," Pac-Man 2 is just.. fun. You aren't directly involved in the on-screen hijinks persay, but you can still bring much hilarious misery to poor ol' Pac-Man's life as he wanders about hopelessly. Better than the Genesis version based purely on the clarity of sound.

Pilotwings ... a lighthearted flight sim with an entertaining selection of distinct vehicles. A game that does mode 7 right.

Legend of the Mystical Ninja ... the feel of this game is enchanting. Wackiness abounds, and it's a great two player experience.

F-Zero ... in spite of the lack of a two-player mode and races that drag on longer than they have to (a surplus of laps), this is a fine and fast racing experience.

Super Baseball Simulator 1.000 ... the coolest baseball game. Absurd twists available to pitching and hitting keep the game far more exciting than other baseball titles.

Super Metroid ... quite possibly my favourite game of all time. Some may find it too slow or open ended, but hot damn, it really draws you in if you let it.

[Oi_Oi_Spanky]

I'm not going trawling but has anyone played Mohawk & Headphone Jack? Gotta be the closest Sonic gets on the SNES. Trippy game mind.

[Dartagnan1083]

DKC is a milestone indeed.

It ushered in a mentality that was easily wowed by shinny graphics when inventive, or even good gameplay just wasn't there. Continued today by such things as the shinny-ness of Xbox360.

Only the most religeous Nintendo fans will praise DKC1.
Sure, the music is nice,
But the levels are shit [oooooo. . .a mine-cart/vine swing/chase level where I have to memorize jumps. That's NEVER been done before DKC :roll:. I essentially put the game down because it was boring


one thing the typical SNES fanboy (the kind that treats the system like Jesus) will do will claim that everyone loved it in 1993.
sure, you could say that. But you'll have to remember that virtually every review from that time read exactly like a game commercial or magazine ad.

Given that times and tastes change.
That argument is fairly worthless.
Everyone loved Mortal Kombat back then as well, but you don't see Midway making halfway decent fighters these days either.


So Curryman. . .
Try to deal with the fact that lots of people might dissagree with you about DKC.
There isn't a single thing in this world that is universally loved by everyone ;)



to Drixel
and your list.

think of this as a second opinion

R-type III It sucks
Super R-type IT REALLY SUCKS. . .no checkpoints force you basically clear the levels in one life. far too frustrating to warrant ANY merrit.
Super Castlevaina IV most of you already know my overzealous opinion on this particular title by now
Actraiser the platforming is REALLY sloppy
Mortal Kombat II Inferior to the arcade version. . .nothing much, just wanted to be a smartass :mrgreen: But nonetheless, Mortal Kombat isn't worth playing for large amouts of time these days.
Super Double Dragon So sluggish and slow that it bores the crap out of me. Hard to play after a lifetime of TMNT, Final Fight CD, RCR, and SoR. the NES DD games play better than this crap.


as for the rest. . .
they're either passable, good, or AAA.

Might I reccomend 'Secret of Evermore' as well?
or perhaps 'Lufia 2'

[Joe Redifer]

Actually I find the platforming elements in ActRaiser to be quite good. The control is spot on with the exception of how your guy squats when he lands from a jump attack. But the jumping controls themselves are superb.

[ary incorparated]

Doom troopers joe never played it? good for youm its digitized and crap,its not great one i was just joking with ya.no probe.curryman dont you know that genesis lovers have a place for the snes,it wasnt a close counter for nthing the console where competeting really hard and not for nothing,so that would mean that they actually both are great i have em both for diffrent games on each system,RPG,s and Fun games like mario DKC etc actraiser castelvania etc enough to enjoy with.Curryman if people say DKC ios shit then its a problem for you,but if you say vectorman is shit we just let gras grow over it hell if it is i like it and thats the most important,i like DKC also,sorry if i insulted you some times i can be a bit harch.I love Actraiser 1 and 2,great games.

[Nazza]

Thanks for the info guys. :D

[j_factor]

Pac-Man 2: The New Adventures ... Better than the Genesis version based purely on the clarity of sound.

Hmm... I have to disagree. The sound quality may be slightly better on SNES, but for this game it doesn't matter since the sound is so lackluster. What makes the Genesis version superior to me is the games in the arcade. On the SNES version, the arcade has Pac-Man in it, and if you get the cartridge pieces, you can also play Ms. Pac-Man. Both are spot-on ports. On the Genesis version, the arcade has Pac-Man in it, and if you get the cartridge pieces, you can also play Pac-Jr. Pac-Man is a spot-on port, but Pac-Jr is an entirely new classic-style Pac-Man game, that only exists in the Genesis version of Pac-Man 2.*

* There was an old arcade sequel called Jr. Pac-Man, but this isn't a port of that (Namco doesn't own the rights to it).

[ary incorparated]

Thats no comparisment the game isnt that great either.For instance aladin or mickey mania snes vs genesis.just for the lol no fanboyism.Aladin defnitly the genesis version tough the snes one is great to:Mickey mania genesis that version has slightly better graphics more textures etc.Lion king for instance is better on snes.

[Drixxel]

Hmm... I have to disagree. The sound quality may be slightly better on SNES, but for this game it doesn't matter since the sound is so lackluster. What makes the Genesis version superior to me is the games in the arcade. On the SNES version, the arcade has Pac-Man in it, and if you get the cartridge pieces, you can also play Ms. Pac-Man. Both are spot-on ports. On the Genesis version, the arcade has Pac-Man in it, and if you get the cartridge pieces, you can also play Pac-Jr. Pac-Man is a spot-on port, but Pac-Jr is an entirely new classic-style Pac-Man game, that only exists in the Genesis version of Pac-Man 2.*

* There was an old arcade sequel called Jr. Pac-Man, but this isn't a port of that (Namco doesn't own the rights to it).

Ehh, I've played a lot of Pac-Man 2 on SNES, and those odd little sounds that Pac-Man makes are hopelessly etched in my memory. The sound adds a lot to the game's personality in my opinion, and the sound effects in Genesis Pac-Man 2 just don't cut it in comparison to the SNES version. That weirdly satisfied Pac-Man purr, the climbing chant, the excited observation gibberish, the Pac shriek, the demoralized whining, etc.. all important! Pac-Jr. is a cooler bonus game to work towards than Ms. Pac-Man, I will agree, and while the SNES and Genesis versions are functionaly identical beyond the sound and bonus game, I'll take that which enhances the game itself over optional bonus content.

[David J.]

I'm looking for cheap copies of DKC 3, Yoshi's Island and Super Mario Allstars w/ Super Mario World (I'd even settle for the one with out Super Mario World).

If anyone is willing to sell cheap, please get in touch!

[George Foreman]

I have a copy of Super Mario All-Stars(minus SMW). but I'm not sure I'm ready to part with it. I'd perhaps trade...... maybe.:?

[ary incorparated]

Those DKC games are normally very expensive also here,i have em and like all three of them equally.sorry david cant get those ones cheap either there just damn expensive,maybe you hve to weigh if there worth it,Neo Geo AES game are 4 times the prive of one DKC,maybe flea markets keep those in mind,they are worth paying for in my uppinion i still like em.

[Oi_Oi_Spanky]

I'm looking for cheap copies of DKC 3, Yoshi's Island and Super Mario Allstars w/ Super Mario World (I'd even settle for the one with out Super Mario World).

If anyone is willing to sell cheap, please get in touch!

I have all of those. The problem is that I live in shitty PAL land. I know it's nice to covert the carts, although you can't often covert the crap, cardboard SNES boxes but since I modded my Xbox, I've shoved all my Megadrive, SNES, Master System & NES games into storage.

[Joe Redifer]

I am borrowing Kirby's Dreamland 3 from a friend. The first thing I noticed before even plugging the game in is that the ROM board that sticks out of the cart has an extra set of pins on each side whereas all the other SNES carts I've seen (that I can recall) do not. Is this to unlock some sort of "Now you're playing with power... SUPER POWER" mode hidden inside the SNES or something? Also I hear that this game has a higher resolution than most SNES games? Is this true? How high is this resolution? Does this apply to the whole game or just a title screen and/or company logo screen?

[David J.]

Well, I lugged my SNES out but it's just sitting their until I finsh my new gaming setup. Don't worry you will see photos and be impressed.

[extrarice]

I am borrowing Kirby's Dreamland 3 from a friend. The first thing I noticed before even plugging the game in is that the ROM board that sticks out of the cart has an extra set of pins on each side whereas all the other SNES carts I've seen (that I can recall) do not. Is this to unlock some sort of "Now you're playing with power... SUPER POWER" mode hidden inside the SNES or something? Also I hear that this game has a higher resolution than most SNES games? Is this true? How high is this resolution? Does this apply to the whole game or just a title screen and/or company logo screen?
The extra PCBs sticking out on either side of the main board is for extra graphic chip support. Star Fox's "FX" chip uses those two extra boards, and MegaMan X2 (and X3 I think) uses those extra boards for the "C4" chip. Yoshi's Island also uses the extra chips (for that hand-drawn, sketchy sprite look, I think - which Kirby 3 also has, iirc).

Don't know about the higher resolution bit.

[ary incorparated]

snes has lot of chip upgade doesnt it,Dtreet fighter alpha 2 used a extra processor thats what i know,to give it more animations or something.Stunt race fx is a cool game to only bit very slow,i personally prefer VRacing above it for the graphics and stuff,but stunt race is better overal i think.

[extrarice]

Developers had to do something to compensate for the wimpy 4.xxMHz processor the SNES had ><

[Zebbe]

It's 3.58 MHz.

[extrarice]

It's 3.58 MHz.
My bad. :) Still dog slow.

[ary incorparated]

yeah but final fight 3 rules and has its speed.

[David J.]

I will say that DKC looks great in S-Video!

*rimshot*

[Benjamin]

The extra PCBs sticking out on either side of the main board is for extra graphic chip support. Star Fox's "FX" chip uses those two extra boards, and MegaMan X2 (and X3 I think) uses those extra boards for the "C4" chip. Yoshi's Island also uses the extra chips (for that hand-drawn, sketchy sprite look, I think - which Kirby 3 also has, iirc).

Don't know about the higher resolution bit.

I don't believe it's in a high resolution, but Kirby 3 does have a great charcoal drawn look to it, with all the lines constantly moving and such. Yoshi's Island used the chip for the 3-D effects -- not for the actual sprites, where it would not be needed. I don't think it's really needed for Kirby 3 as well, but I'd imagine that with all those animated sprites, the SNES needed support to display them all and keep the game running at a reasonable pace. Kirby 3 has no polygon-effects as with the other Super FX games, at least as far as I remember.

[j_factor]

I was under the impression that Kirby's Dreamland 3 used the SA-1 chip - the same chip that Kirby Super Star uses.

[Benjamin]

I was under the impression that Kirby's Dreamland 3 used the SA-1 chip - the same chip that Kirby Super Star uses.

I'm showing my SNES ignorance here. :) I thought the only upgrade chip the SNES got was the Super FX? I figured maybe it had some variations as with the constant MMX upgrades on the NES, but I didn't know that a separate chipset existed. I gotta read up I guess. :)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_SA-1

[j_factor]

Well if that article's list is correct, then I'm right. Yay me.

But yes Ben, SNES had quite a large number of different chips. PilotWings and F-Zero used the DSP chip; Yoshi's Island used the FX2; Mega Man X2 used the C4; Star Ocean used the SDD1. All of those chips were used by multiple games, and there were several more than that.

[GeckoYamori]

C4 was the lamest use of an extension chip ever. All it did was display wireframe models, and it was very rarely used. It just needlessly add to the game prices.

[Joe Redifer]

I love the idea of expansion chips in carts. Instead of designing the system correctly the first time, we get to instead pay inflated prices for cartridges that have chips in them to make them run at an acceptable speed (Kirby's Dreamland 3 is still insanely slow). Way to ass-rape the consumer, Nintendo!

[Mendicant]

But Joe... expansion chips let the player experience next generation games without having to buy a whole new console. And Gecko, wireframes were so cool prior to the latter mid-90's. :p

[nik]

I love the idea of expansion chips in carts. Instead of designing the system correctly the first time, we get to instead pay inflated prices for cartridges that have chips in them to make them run at an acceptable speed (Kirby's Dreamland 3 is still insanely slow). Way to ass-rape the consumer, Nintendo!

Now now, lets be fair, the Genesis segaCD 32x monster was not exactly a great system design, even though we love sega.

[j_factor]

But Joe... expansion chips let the player experience next generation games without having to buy a whole new console.

Except there were chipped SNES games at launch. So you kind of did have to buy a whole new console -- the SNES. And none of the chipped games were exactly "next generation", IMO -- even Jaguar and 3DO are way, way above Super FX.

[Benjamin]

Except there were chipped SNES games at launch. So you kind of did have to buy a whole new console -- the SNES.
Perhaps I'm not following what you're trying to convey, but faulting the SNES as a requirement to play SNES games seems silly. :p


And none of the chipped games were exactly "next generation", IMO -- even Jaguar and 3DO are way, way above Super FX.
Of course, those are 32-bit systems. Super FX I'd say is more analogous to the DSP in Virtua Racing. Of course, I really have no idea why Sega priced the cartridge so high -- I have difficulty believing it's the cost of the DSP that tacked on another $40+, considering a DSP-less Phantasy Star IV launched at $99. It makes better consumer sense to sell games individually and make them available to all console owners than split the market with a separate add-on. The MSRP on NES games with the MMX technology rose about $5, and I think the SNES situation was similar. It's a marginal increase to help keep your product competitive in an advanced market while keeping it available to the largest user base possible, instead of splitting potential sales as Sega did with its two Genesis add-ons.

[j_factor]

Perhaps I'm not following what you're trying to convey, but faulting the SNES as a requirement to play SNES games seems silly. :p

I'm not faulting the SNES per se, I'm just making a point about his comment. He said that the SNES chips allowed you to play next-gen games without buying a new system, but I don't think he realizes that SNES itself was a new system at one point, and it had chipped games even then. My point was merely that -- SNES used coprocessors from the very beginning.



Of course, those are 32-bit systems. Super FX I'd say is more analogous to the DSP in Virtua Racing.

Well, yes, I agree entirely, and that's really my point. :) Btw, you mean SVP, DSP is a chip used in early SNES games like PilotWings.

[Benjamin]

Btw, you mean SVP, DSP is a chip used in early SNES games like PilotWings.

The SVP (http://www.sega-16.com/Segas%20SVP%20Chip-%20the%20Road%20not%20Taken.htm) uses the DSP (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Virtua_Processor). :) I always call it the DSP since that is how seemingly every magazine would reference it back in the day until Sega labeled it the SVP chip, even though it still uses the DSP chip to power it. Sega Virtua Processor I suppose was thought to be a better marketing name than Digital Signal Processor.

[j_factor]

The SVP is a DSP, but since there's an SNES chip specifically named DSP, it's confusing to call it that.

[ary incorparated]

Sometimes id rather see mode 7 or 3d ish games not appear on snes then if they do,somethimes they try hard but with a clear look some snes games may seem slow redered cause of the 3d technologie like Stunt race fx and starfox or the mode 7 effect may seem like just a scrolling band or rups with alpha channels like in Axellay the first level just made me lauigh how the enemys scroll with the background Yuck,compare stunt race fx with virtua racinf first Virtua racing faster and 3D wise Bit the same but i prefer virtua racing still plays heavenly,and expensive then yes also was the MDCD but now its buyable 15 euros topped.Or the 32x version would do good,the saturn one i didnt like.

[ary incorparated]

Hmm but star ocean runs at a decnt speed and that game looks awesome inclding all the animation and shadows one of the few snes games that look realistic and actually good.Street fighter alpha 2 snes that asswipe,coprocessors and shamly slow better to not release all the streetfighter stuff on a snes only good for those disasterrs.kirbu superstar looked great.Snes did some stuff that came close to 32 bit like gave the impression atleast DK country for instance gave the impression at first or star ocean,i agree the FX stuff looks gore and crap far way not close to 32bit.Axcegrid that one looks nice.Ranger x level 4 when i first saw it tought it was saturn in a strange tought back then but i really tought it was 32 bit,that one really shocked me all the colours and nature i tought that ranger x was 32 bit but nowdays i know it isnt but when i was younger i tought so with more games.

[ary incorparated]

Mega cd was a step to a other level a extension you didnt hear me complain about it,im not aggainst it,aggainst extension of chips if that could make a streets of rage game better or call ,its all coming trough the hardware of its console,the cosole can handle the extensiuon or already has it hidden and unused like mostly the psg channels or extra processing speed etc etc,genesis didnt even use chip extension in panorama cotton cause it already could scale sprite horizontal and vertical it just had enoug animations to make sprites move individually at a good frame rate.BTW wasnt snes 2,58 hz,.and some games like sf2 alpha boosted up to 3,58hz.

[ary incorparated]

I know what the best thing for joe is,put him in the electric chair and let him play Dk country/vectorman and for the apertiser Clay Fighterrrrrsssssss(talk about Clay Graphics) anyhoe if joe losses one life he get a electric pulse of lets say 220 volts:im not that bad if he survives it i bet hes praising Clay fighter as the best game ever made.I wouldnt do this for shure its just a nightmare that could have been or can be,I dont wish you that.

[ary incorparated]

I will say that DKC looks great in S-Video!

*rimshot*

Show me a picture then.

[Joe Redifer]

I would, but my SNES is hooked up in component video which is better than smelly s-video.

[David J.]

And I am about to put away my SNES because I might put it up for sale! So no pics!

[j_factor]

I would, but my SNES is hooked up in component video which is better than smelly s-video.

How does one hook up an SNES with component cables? Hardware mod?

[Joe Redifer]

Nope. I do it the same way I hook up my Genesis, Saturn, N64 and SMS up with component video. RGB transcoded.

[j_factor]

Nope. I do it the same way I hook up my Genesis, Saturn, N64 and SMS up with component video. RGB transcoded.

Elaborate.

[Joe Redifer]

RGB SCART cables hooked up to a RGB SCART to YUV Component transcoder. Component cables go from that fun li'l box to my TV.

[j_factor]

Where are you getting all these SCART cables from? Some European website?

[Joe Redifer]

eBay (they've all been brand new and come from the UK). I ordered the YUV converter from some Australian site, though. Required a Radio Shack AC Adaptor to plug into my fancy non-Australian wall.

[ary incorparated]

Hmm i just hooked it up with my RGB cable from the cube no probe,sore from the pictures id liked to see em.

[16-bit]

I like my Genesis just as much as my SNES right now. Even though I'm collecting for Genesis right now. I just wish I could find some quality games in my area that I didn't have.

[16-bit]

yeah but final fight 3 rules and has its speed.
I thought the SNES version of sparkster was pretty fast, although, I can't stand how slow Gradius 3 runs on SNES.

[16-bit]

Most SNES games saved? That's news to me. I'm not a huge RPG fan and even less of a SQUARE fan so the SNES doesn't have the same sort of attraction to me as to Square-o-philes.

Also, games like Sonic don't really need a battery unless they are mega-long. Sonic 3 had a save function. Sonic 1 and 2 had level selects. There are always ways for the less-skilled player to make it to the end in those games.
Yeah, I agree that Square did (and still does) take alot of attention away from some games, (Earthbound for example)

[ary incorparated]

I thought the SNES version of sparkster was pretty fast, although, I can't stand how slow Gradius 3 runs on SNES.

Hmm it runs at a decent speed yes,you can have holy fast and pasable fast sparkster is pasable no probe with it,althought ninja wariors that was a crap first grade game,talk about slow the blue mech robot yuck,and the choppy animation yuck.

[j_factor]

eBay (they've all been brand new and come from the UK). I ordered the YUV converter from some Australian site, though. Required a Radio Shack AC Adaptor to plug into my fancy non-Australian wall.

I just ordered a YUV converter off a UK retailer... £8 after shipping, not too bad at all. How much did you pay for your SCART leads? All the ones I see on eBay right now (for Mega Drive) are £14 plus shipping... a bit more than I want to pay.

[Joe Redifer]

Yeah, around there, maybe a bit less... it's been awhile.

I highly doubt there are any SCART RGB to YUV component RCA converters for only 8 lbs after shipping. Do you have a link?

[j_factor]

I ordered it off www.tvcables.co.uk

Another thing, I found something weird regarding Nintendo scart cables. This was posted on Amazon.co.uk, regarding a third party Gamecube scart cable.

"Due to unannounced changes made by Nintendo in the European Gamecube hardware (like the removal of S-Video support, for example) the initial batches of RGB cables did not provide an RGB signal - to my knowledge nearly all the third party manufacturers were affected in the same way and the only RGB cable that provided RGB at launch was (of course) Nintendo's. We have since resourced the cables and they are now fully RGB compatible."

So does that mean RGB scart cables aren't fully cross-compatible on SNES, N64, and Gamecube?

[Joe Redifer]

Never tried with the Gamecube since that already has component video.

[j_factor]

Yeah, if you want to pay out the ass.

[Joe Redifer]

It's not that expensive from what I recall, plus you don't have to pay international shipping. Plus the GC component cable has a chip built in that decodes the digital video and audio. RGB out from the GC transcoded into component cannot do progressive scan.

But anyway the same RGB SCART cable that I use with my SNES works with my N64, but the N64 needs to be modded. It's almost not worth it, though, since the N64 outputs blurry video that cannot benefit from an RGB connection.

[Cbotron]

The Snes was a great console imo back in the days.

[Vorty]

Yeah, but an extremely overatted one.

[Henry Spencer]

I always thought of the SNES as overrated, I do think Nintendo's finest hour is the Nintendo 64, I still play on it after all these years, the SNES is the one hidden in the loft...

[nate]

I don't know how you can say the N64 is better than the SNES. You must have pretty particular tastes in video games. Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, 007, Paper Mario, anything else? Not really.

The SNES has:

1) Better RPGs- Earthbound, Secret of Mana, Chrono Trigger, Final Fantasy II&III, Breath of Fire I&II, Illusion of Gaia
2)A version of Tetris Attack without Pokemon in it
3)Mario 1,2,3, Super Mario World, Yoshi's Island
4)No competition in fighting games- Streetfighter 2 turo vs. Killer Instinct 64 hmmm....
5)Super Metroid
6)Countless numbers of 2-D sequels

[ary incorparated]

I have to say that te snes wasnt better then n64 Killer instinct gold ways above street figher 2 turbo.Mario party and kart,mario 64 finest hours multiplayer turok 2 Goldeneye Mario party F zero beetle racing san fransico rush,ready to rumble 3d graphics misshief makers and a space harier kindo shooter forgot the name,what more paper mario hmm Fifa 98 all great games besides RPG,s,i still love the DK country games and some others on snes its defnitly a very awesome system.GBA ways more overhyped then snes GBA is butt ugly.

[Elusive]

The N64 has aged pretty horribly. At least with Saturn and PSX games you have the excuse that both were released during the difficult transition to 3D - there's no excuse for grainy, low-poly Cataract-O-Vision and awful, awful controllers. And a total of about three games. And an add-on that everyone pretends never existed so they can laugh at the Mega-CD some more.

It's aged worse than the SMS, for Pete's sake.

[extrarice]

The N64 has aged pretty horribly. At least with Saturn and PSX games you have the excuse that both were released during the difficult transition to 3D - there's no excuse for grainy, low-poly Cataract-O-Vision and awful, awful controllers. And a total of about three games. And an add-on that everyone pretends never existed so they can laugh at the Mega-CD some more.

It's aged worse than the SMS, for Pete's sake.
Remember that the N64 graphics engine was almost picked for the Saturn... ;)

[j_factor]

I wouldn't say the N64 has "aged horribly". I'm no fan of it, but most, if not all complaints levied against it were just as valid while the system was on the market as they are now. Blurry graphics, shit controllers, lack of quality software -- I sure as hell noticed these things all the way back in 1996. I still can't believe anyone bought it at launch -- wow, two whole games available! Even Saturn's oft-malinged (and rightly so) "pre-launch launch" had 33% more games.

[Drixxel]

I wouldn't say the N64 has "aged horribly". I'm no fan of it, but most, if not all complaints levied against it were just as valid while the system was on the market as they are now. Blurry graphics, shit controllers, lack of quality software -- I sure as hell noticed these things all the way back in 1996. I still can't believe anyone bought it at launch -- wow, two whole games available! Even Saturn's oft-malinged (and rightly so) "pre-launch launch" had 33% more games.

A crippling selection indeed, but Super Mario 64 was a far stronger launch title than anything the Saturn had to offer upon release.

[j_factor]

Keyword in that sentence is "a". Singular.

As in, "hey wow, this system has a great game!" Yeah well, so did Jaguar.

[Henry Spencer]

^

Ummm, Legend Of Zelda (OoT of course) was better...

[Drixxel]

Quality vs. quantity.

Saturn launch titles (please correct me if I'm forgetting any):
Clockwork Knight
Daytona USA
Ghen War
Panzer Dragoon
Virtua Fighter

N64 launch titles:
Pilotwings 64
Super Mario 64

Neither of these is a perfect launch line-up.

The Saturn was blessed with greater gaming variety at the expense of rushed product and lack of a breadwinning, must-own title. Given the sad state of the Virtua Fighter port, Panzer Dragoon would have made a far cooler pack-in; it comes closer than any of the other Saturn launch titles to being a system seller, in my opinion. With regard to the N64, two games is unquestionably a weak selection, but when one of those games is a revolutionary, expansive and insanely enjoyable 3D platformer with years of gaming heritage behind it, a two game launch line-up isn't as big of a deal anymore. ..as long as more games are on the way. It was the immediately slow trickle of software that was more of a stumbling block for the N64 than the launch itself, in my opinion.

[j_factor]

Saturn launch titles (please correct me if I'm forgetting any):
Clockwork Knight
Daytona USA
Ghen War
Panzer Dragoon
Virtua Fighter

Depends which 'launch' you're talking about. The release in May (which was not a launch, but everyone calls it that) didn't have Ghen War available. The official launch had 20 games. Twenty spleen-busting games according to an ad. Yeah, spleen-busting.

I have been unable to 100% confirm the exact launch list, but I believe this to be mostly accurate:
Virtua Fighter
Daytona USA
Panzer Dragoon
Clockwork Knight
Ghen War
Myst
World Series Baseball
Black Fire
Bug!
Solar Eclipse
Virtua Racing
Virtua Cop
Mansion of Hidden Souls
Cyber Speedway
Wing Arms
Mystaria
Congo
Pebble Beach Golf
Worldwide Soccer
NHL All-Star Hockey
Virtua Fighter Remix (perhaps not yet available at retail, but free copies came at that point)

[Rayek]

I wouldn't say the N64 has "aged horribly". I'm no fan of it, but most, if not all complaints levied against it were just as valid while the system was on the market as they are now.

I just hopped in here, but this post made me want to reply... The reason i really dig the last generation of dedicated 2D gaming systems was that they don't age. You could play a Master System game and enjoy it just as much as if you had picked up a Genesis pad. It's easy to ooh and ah over what developers could do with the hardware at the time, in the case of Panorama Cotton, Silpheed, etc. and those things still awe me today. 2D, I don't believe can age, because nobody uses it anymore. The current developers aren't toying with resolution and creating giant 200X200 pixel sprites and scaling them down.. Know what I mean? But when you see the Playstation 2 as compared with the Playstation, and the Gamecube as compared with the N64... There is no comparison. Many N64 titles look more primitive than SNES and/or Genesis titles.

Know what I mean?

[j_factor]

Yes, I know what you mean... but I disagree. Kind of.

2D did age. Compare Xevious to Radiant Silvergun and tell me there's no difference in age. Even 16-bit 2D games have aged, just look at the 2D stuff on Playstation and Saturn.

As for "Many N64 titles look more primitive than SNES and/or Genesis titles." That I can agree with. But that's also something I would've agreed with in 1997.

In conclusion, people who remark that N64 has "aged" badly, probably got suckered into owning/liking the system back then, but now realize it sucked. :P

[Rayek]

Personally, I've never been a fan.

[Drixxel]

To all who think the N64 has aged poorly, I implore you to take a look at any first generation PlayStation title. Compare the everpresent N64 texture blur to the spotty texture warping and various 3D glitching of so many PlayStation releases.. which is more distracting and indicative of weak 3D? It's not as if the Saturn was a 3D powerhouse, either. Low poly models and faked transparencies are telltale signs of aged hardware, but at least it was free of hideous texture mishaps. That generation was plagued with unique graphical flaws that are consistent with the evolution from 2D-dominated gaming to 3D.. there were still a lot of kinks to work out. It all comes down to the direction of your bias when determining which of the three was the supposed "worst."

[j_factor]

To all who think the N64 has aged poorly, I implore you to take a look at any first generation PlayStation title. Compare the everpresent N64 texture blur to the spotty texture warping and various 3D glitching of so many PlayStation releases.. which is more distracting and indicative of weak 3D? It's not as if the Saturn was a 3D powerhouse, either. Low poly models and faked transparencies are telltale signs of aged hardware, but at least it was free of hideous texture mishaps. That generation was plagued with unique graphical flaws that are consistent with the evolution from 2D-dominated gaming to 3D.. there were still a lot of kinks to work out. It all comes down to the direction of your bias when determining which of the three was the supposed "worst."

Although I see your point, I still think N64 graphics were inferior. Graphically speaking, I think Threads of Fate is better than Majora's Mask, NiGHTS is better than Mario 64, etc. It's hard to give lots of direct-comparison examples, simply because with the limited n64 library it's hard to match up PSX/Saturn games of a similar style that came out around the same time, but I honestly think that overall, N64 usually produced uglier graphics. There were actually occasions that playing N64 literally hurt my eyes because they were trying to bring the image in front of them into focus, and they couldn't.

[Elusive]

Although I see your point, I still think N64 graphics were inferior. Graphically speaking, I think Threads of Fate is better than Majora's Mask, NiGHTS is better than Mario 64, etc. It's hard to give lots of direct-comparison examples, simply because with the limited n64 library it's hard to match up PSX/Saturn games of a similar style that came out around the same time, but I honestly think that overall, N64 usually produced uglier graphics. There were actually occasions that playing N64 literally hurt my eyes because they were trying to bring the image in front of them into focus, and they couldn't.

Sad thing is, 'greats' on the system are like playing 'great' games on a substandard machine. Perfect Dark becomes Slideshow City really really easily, for example.

[Black_Tiger]

Would you agree with this statement?

=================================

Genesis. The SNES had like three good exclusive games:

Super Mario World
Donkey Kong Country
Super Mario Kart

Then, we have the slew of overrated "classics" such as Zelda 3, Super Metroid (boring as fuck), Super Castlevania 4, Yoshi's Island, Earthbound,Diddy Kong's Quest and the Mega Man X games.

Now, let's look at the classic titles for the Sega Genesis:

Sonic the Hedgehog 2
Streets of Rage 2 (Beats all three Final Fight games)
Beyond Oasis (better than Zelda 3)
Gunstar Heroes
Dynamite Headdy
Ristar (on par with Mario World)
Shining Force series
Phantasy Star series
Robocop vs. Terminator (better than the SNES version).
Sonic the Hedgehog 3 + Knuckles (Super Mario who?)
Ghoul's and Ghosts (Better than Super GnG.)
Street Fighter 2 Championship edition
Yu Yu Hakusho. (All of the "anime" fighters on the SNES were disgraceful.)
Plus, without my Genesis I wouldn't be able to play Sonic CD, the greatest platform game of all time.

So, the Genesis pretty much owns the SNES at all levels. True, the SNES had better graphical and audio capiblities but if nearly all of the games on the system are shit, then who cares?

I also loved when the screen rotated around in games like SC4, Ghouls n Ghosts and that shitty Mohawk game. Nothing like a tad of motion sickness to make your gaming experience complete!

Also, the SNES controller was poorly designed. The actual look of the console look horrible and clunky in comparison to the sleek and sexy Genesis look. So, you guys can stick with your three good games,

With the SNES we have quantity over quality. With the Genesis, we have a large range of great games, covering a wide variety of genres. The Genesis had a great selection of RPG's, fighting games, shooters and platform games while the SNES had a ton of boring RPG's and a ton of dire liscensed games (so did the Genesis but not to the same extent.)

Now, I'm gonna go play Bebe's Kids.

~Vorty


I don't agree. Even if I did agree with the idea that the SNES' games mostly sucked, the list of good SNES games would still be much longer, as would the Genesis'.

Like most(all?) successful consoles, both the Genesis and SNES suffered from a slew of overrated and just plain garbage games. Both have quantity over quality and both Sega and Nintendo made millions by selling lincenses for all those games. But that still leaves a huge number of great titles.

I like how the SNES got summed up with "like three good exclusive games", but the Genesis list includes lots of multiplatform titles. Including "Robocop vs. Terminator (better than the SNES version)" -which makes it sound like it's the only example you could think of, which makes it sound like it's the exception to the rule.

Why is SFIICE listed for the Genesis without an explanation? Did the SNES miss out on Street Fighter II ports?

I don't believe that Ghoul's and Ghosts is better than Super GnG, but Ghosts N Goblins definately beats them both, so I guess we should all trade in our Genesis' for NES'?

I love Sonic CD, it's my favorite Sonic game. But I don't think it should simply be called or judged simply as a platformer and certainly not the be-all end-all one.

If you really believe that "nearly all of the games on the system are shit", then you must also really hate the Genesis and gaming in general.

Finally, why is this being posted here? Shouldn't it be posted in some kind of Nintendo/SNES forum?





DKC is a milestone indeed.

It ushered in a mentality that was easily wowed by shinny graphics when inventive, or even good gameplay just wasn't there. Continued today by such things as the shinny-ness of Xbox360.

Didn't the 16-bit generation (first led by the Genesis) in general start this? 8-bit games relied more on gameplay than graphics. Didn't Mortal Kombat (and others) beat DKC to this milestone years earlier?




I love the idea of expansion chips in carts. Instead of designing the system correctly the first time, we get to instead pay inflated prices for cartridges that have chips in them to make them run at an acceptable speed (Kirby's Dreamland 3 is still insanely slow). Way to ass-rape the consumer, Nintendo!

Didn't like every single NES/Famicom game after the early Coleco looking ones have a chip in them?




A crippling selection indeed, but Super Mario 64 was a far stronger launch title than anything the Saturn had to offer upon release.

Except that when the Saturn launched, 3DO and Jaquar were the 32 & 64-bit standards. Although Mario 64's a great game, it's not as impressive as Daytona and Panzer Dragoon were for me when I bought them at the early Saturn launch.

Where as Mario 64 came out at the same time as Crash & NiGhTs and all those other Saturn & PSX games were already out.

[nate]

Honestly, I don't even play my Genesis much anymore. Under my TV is an SNES, a Saturn, an XBox and a PS2. The SNES has a huge advantage in RPGs which makes it more replayable than the Genesis, to me anyway. Ditto with the Saturn and PS1. I have not taken my N64 out of the closet since 2001, when I bought a Dreamcast. I'd honestly rather play Panzer Dragoon Saga and Final Fantasy 7, 8, 9 than anyhting on the N64.

The Genesis and the N64 were more fun than their counterparts during their life span, but their replayability after 17 and 10 years (respectively) isn't so good. I spent twice as much time with my Genesis as my SNES from 1992-1996 and twice as much time with my N64 as my PS form 1996-2001, but the SNES, PS1, and Saturn all did me better in the long run. It is partially graphics, partially game library, and mostly personal taste. I still love both my SNES and Genesis, it doesn't matter which is "better".

[j_factor]

The SNES has a huge advantage in RPGs which makes it more replayable than the Genesis, to me anyway.

I can understand preferring SNES in terms of RPGs, but this comment struck me funny. To me, RPGs are far less replayable than action/arcade/platformer games. An RPG is more of a commitment, and so I will only play one when I properly set aside the time for it. But an action game I can just casually pop in anytime and have fun.

[Joe Redifer]

Agreed.

[ary incorparated]

come on pd is to short and to simple to compete with Mario 64,mario64 had many hours of gameplay,but the graphics are sometimes bit shit it looks nice but is to blurry or something. come on Daytona on saturn is almost a too shitt crap ugly game, man ROOOOOOOOOOOOLing start how gay does that sound Dayy ie tonaaaaaaaaaaa lets go away lets go away Day ie tonaaa aaaaaaa Day ie Day ie ie Day i Day i I Daytonaaaaaaaaaaaaa(Double chorus)the text is right lets go away man the game is the opposite from its arcade version.

[Henry Spencer]

Everyone talks about the look, like it is the only thing that matters, I don't give a damn, thats why I prefet the N64 over the SNES, better gameplay.