Video Game senate hearing 1993

[Psy]

I came across this video Senate Hearings on Video Game Violence (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lzB9p82RmjQ&feature=channel) where Nintendo of America basically calls Sega Of America a liar for saying the user base for their SegaCD is mostly older gamers and talking like most video gamers were kids even in late 1993. I am disappointed Sega of America didn't bring up SNK's Neo-Geo AES to show they were not the only company going over the older gamers, they could have also brought up the pornographic games on the 3DO. To really hit Nintendo of America blow the belt Sega could have flown in people from Sega of Japan to show what Nintendo of Japan releases in Japan and tell the senate these games are available at import shops in the USA and to show how easy it is to mod the SNES to play Super Famicom games.

[Christuserloeser]

As far as I know, the games Nintendo released in Japan were no different to what they released in the West.

Lincoln is correct if he says that there was no major shift towards adults, even with the SegaCD. The marketing campaign for the SCD probably did aim at an older demographic, but the game/s itself could be bought at any store by anyone.

[Psy]

As far as I know, the games Nintendo released in Japan were no different to what they released in the West.

True but the hearing was not about 1st party titles but 3rd party titles on their systems and Nintendo of Japan allowed the usual sexual and violent games onto their system like the other video game companies in Japan.



Lincoln is correct if he says that there was no major shift towards adults, even with the SegaCD. The marketing campaign for the SCD probably did aim at an older demographic, but the game/s itself could be bought at any store by anyone.

He was responding to Sega of America saying the average SegaCD owner was an adult. You can see what Sega of America said 55 seconds into this video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vuELWWB1mOE). Sega of America had a point, older gamers were far more interested in the SegaCD then younger gamers.

[Rusty Venture]

As far as I know, the games Nintendo released in Japan were no different to what they released in the West.

No, games were edited when they came to the US. Violence, religious content, and sexual themes were the biggies removed. They plastered posters in video game departments claiming their "family friendly" games by saying what the games *WOULD NOT* contain.

This Senate Hearing just makes me angry at Nintendo for being scummy assholes tattle-taling the government only to protect their marketshare.

And that "we're family friendly!" line goes right out the door when you throw out your "family values" for profits AKA the release of "Mortal Kombat 2".

[FoxHound]

Yeah Nintendo sure loved having MK2 for the Super Nintendo. Game was huge when it released. BlockBuster had whole section for it. and all checked out.

[kool kitty89]

Sega of America was proactive about it though, rahter than striking back at nintendo, or other competitors and pissing them off too, they put together the Video game Ratings Council, which was succeded by the ESRB, something that was overdue in the industry by this time IMO. (granted many companies had taken it upon themselves to put ratings and disclaimers on their products, like with id's "PC-13" rating on Wolf3D in '92, and 3DO's comprehensive ratings system similar to the ESRB's)

They got together with 125 major players in the industry (notable exception being Nintendo), and put together the VGC.

Ironically it was this formation of a standardized ratings system that Nintendo of America finally started lightening their censorship, a big example of this is the "M" rated version of Doom released in '95. (Mortal Combat 2 being the first significant example of this though)
For the first time since the early NES releases (pre-1988), like Pro Wrestling (which had some pretty violent moves in it, blood, biting, stabing with forks...).

[Scooter]

...they could have also brought up the pornographic games on the 3DO.

What, what, what? Maybe I needs to gets me a 3DO afterall. :D

Honestly, that's the first I've ever heard of it.

[kool kitty89]

There were some on the PSX and Saturn too, moreso in Japan iirc. There were ones on the NES too (unlicensed obviously), don't know about the Genesis; and you probably know about the Atari 2600 ones...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adult_video_game

http://www.seanbaby.com/nes/naughty.htm

[17daysolderthannes]

it doesn't matter if they market to adults, it matters if they can sell it to children in spite of being targeted at adults. No video store will sell a 5 year old Terminator 2 (the movie), so therefore it made sense to them to instill ratings on video games so the same 5 year old couldn't rip out someone's spine in Mortal Kombat.

[Psy]

it doesn't matter if they market to adults, it matters if they can sell it to children in spite of being targeted at adults. No video store will sell a 5 year old Terminator 2 (the movie), so therefore it made sense to them to instill ratings on video games so the same 5 year old couldn't rip out someone's spine in Mortal Kombat.

But how many kids owned a SegaCD in 1993, how many kids could even afford a SegaCD in 1993? This is why I think Sega of America had a point when they said over half of SegaCD owners were adults.

[tomaitheous]

But how many kids owned a SegaCD in 1993, how many kids could even afford a SegaCD in 1993? This is why I think Sega of America had a point when they said over half of SegaCD owners were adults.

Depends on the definition of "kids". Anyone under 18 is a minor or "kid".

Anyway, I fail to see what Japan has to do with anything. And pointing to other companies and saying, "See. Look what they are doing, too.". Isn't the best argument one can make. It doesn't resolve your own problems or remove you from some sort of guilt.

[Psy]

Depends on the definition of "kids". Anyone under 18 is a minor or "kid".

Well Night Trap has nothing in it to get it more then a teen rating, you could air the entire footage of Night Trap on day-time TV in 1993 while being well within FCC guide lines for day time TV.



Anyway, I fail to see what Japan has to do with anything. And pointing to other companies and saying, "See. Look what they are doing, too.". Isn't the best argument one can make. It doesn't resolve your own problems or remove you from some sort of guilt.
Nintendo of America was saying how there was no mature titles for the SNES and never will be. Sega of America could have brought in engineers to show how easy it was to mod a SNES to play Super Famicom games then show the mature games on the Super Famicom to shoot down Nintendo of America's arguments that Nintendo of America was above the need of ratings system.

[kool kitty89]

But how many kids owned a SegaCD in 1993, how many kids could even afford a SegaCD in 1993? This is why I think Sega of America had a point when they said over half of SegaCD owners were adults.

Mortal Kombat was not on the Sega CD until 1994, this case would be pertaining to the Genesis/MD version released in '93. (and this version required a "secret" code to uncensor it)



Well Night Trap has nothing in it to get it more then a teen rating, you could air the entire footage of Night Trap on day-time TV in 1993 while being well within FCC guide lines for day time TV.


True, it was taken out of context, with NoA supplying clips that gave the impression the object of the game was to capture the girls... (I don't know why Sega didn't simply rebut them with a complete overview of the game and proper clips/excerpts of gameplay...) The only thing (supposedly) pushing it in that game was the the cover, and the "nightgown scene" (both of which are nothing more than PG worthy...)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/Ntrap3doscene.JPG


That said, I feel the resulting rating system resulting from Sega's proactive approach to the issue was a very good thing to come out of this, and necessary at that. (like 17days mentions)

[Psy]

Mortal Kombat was not on the Sega CD until 1994, this case would be pertaining to the Genesis/MD version released in '93. (and this version required a "secret" code to uncensor it)

True but Nintendo of America was slamming Sega of America for Night Trap not Mortal Kombat.




True, it was taken out of context, with NoA supplying clips that gave the impression the object of the game was to capture the girls... (I don't know why Sega didn't simply rebut them with a complete overview of the game and proper clips/excerpts of gameplay...) The only thing (supposedly) pushing it in that game was the the cover, and the "nightgown scene" (both of which are nothing more than PG worthy...)
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/00/Ntrap3doscene.JPG


That said, I feel the resulting rating system resulting from Sega's proactive approach to the issue was a very good thing to come out of this, and necessary at that. (like 17days mentions)
Really it seems Sega of America didn't come prepared to defend the industry outside talking about their new rating system. When asked about violence towards innocence bystanders in Lethal Enforcers Sega of America didn't point out that you a life in Lethal Enforcers for shooting bystanders (yes Konami made Lethal Enforcers but Sega of America should have prepared for such attacks).

[Rusty Venture]

Considering we now know that "Night Trap" was originally supposed to come out on the Nintendo CD system, it makes their crying to the Senate that much more petty.

Granted, the info wasn't widely known at the time...but if the info *was known at the time* they would have looked foolish.

I'm glad we have the rating system, but I still think Nintendo is a petty company for doing this.

[kool kitty89]

Considering we now know that "Night Trap" was originally supposed to come out on the Nintendo CD system, it makes their crying to the Senate that much more petty.

I'm glad we have the rating system, but I still think Nintendo is a petty company for doing this.

I've neaver heard of that, I knew it was originally in producion for Hasbro's "NEMO" VHS based console, but I'd never heard anything about Nintendo taking an interest... (let along Sony of Phillips, dependingon which SNES CD you mean, pre-1991 would be Sony)

Yeah and they do seem to be petty. Odd that they mention a "64-bit" system in the works, I hadn't thought they'd started working with SGI until very late 1993. (prior to which SoA had proposed the chipset as an alternative to the Saturn, wich SoJ refused of course and SGI was forsed to move on, this all happening durring 1993)

Edit: I just noticed the vid is from December of 1993, so that would be pretty late. But man, they must have only just started working on the actual sesign of the console... (Just the raw chipset to start with)

[Rusty Venture]

From the interview with Rob Fulop:

"Rob Fulop: The Senate brought in Howard Lincoln, then president of Nintendo, who claimed emphatically "I'd like to state that Night Trap will NEVER appear on a Nintendo system, obviously it doesn't pass our guidelines." This was a great example of the true meaning of the term "weasel." I mean, it's a joke ... I was in the room when Nintendo passed on the opportunity to distribute Night Trap, because their platform could not support FMV. So Howard Lincoln was correct in stating that Night Trap "did not pass Nintendo's guidelines," but what he meant was that the game did not pass Nintendo's TECHNICAL requirements."

Howard Lincoln: Petty, two-faced, weasel.

[MrMatthews]

I agree that was a pretty weasel-ly thing to say, but remember that BOTH Sega and Nintendo were called upon to defend themselves against the charges of video game violence.

I'm sure that over the course of the entire hearing, Sega got a chance to be wheedling and finger-pointing as well.

[tomaitheous]

From the interview with Rob Fulop:

"Rob Fulop: The Senate brought in Howard Lincoln, then president of Nintendo, who claimed emphatically "I'd like to state that Night Trap will NEVER appear on a Nintendo system, obviously it doesn't pass our guidelines." This was a great example of the true meaning of the term "weasel." I mean, it's a joke ... I was in the room when Nintendo passed on the opportunity to distribute Night Trap, because their platform could not support FMV. So Howard Lincoln was correct in stating that Night Trap "did not pass Nintendo's guidelines," but what he meant was that the game did not pass Nintendo's TECHNICAL requirements."

Howard Lincoln: Petty, two-faced, weasel.

Who the hell is Rob Fulop? And why would anyone present a FMV title to a system that has no FMV capability? Sounds like bullshit to me. And Nintendo already had in practice, censoring of games. I really doubt they *would* have given license to that game if they even *had* FMV capabilities given Nintendo's long previous track record.

[Rusty Venture]

From the Sega-16 Interview (which is what that bit I copied is from) Rob Fulop created/help create the 2600 games Night Driver, Missile Command, Demon Attack, and Cosmic Ark.

[Metal_Sonic]

From the Sega-16 Interview (which is what that bit I copied is from) Rob Fulop created/help create the 2600 games Night Driver, Missile Command, Demon Attack, and Cosmic Ark.

But I thought Melf faked all the interviews?

[kool kitty89]

From the Sega-16 Interview (which is what that bit I copied is from) Rob Fulop created/help create the 2600 games Night Driver, Missile Command, Demon Attack, and Cosmic Ark.

I see, but it still hardly makes any sense in the context of the quote given. (It makes no mention of the Sony or Phillips CD player add-on, which would be the only reason Digital pictures would have had to even consider it)

And it begs the question of why he was "in the room" when it happened...

Edit: I read more into the article and realized he actually worked on the game... Didn't see any mention of his name on Wikipedia's pages for Night Trap and Digital Pictures though.

http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=329&title=Developer's%20Den:%20Digital%20Pictures

http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=154&title=Interview:%20Rob%20Fulop


But I thought Melf faked all the interviews?

??? Is this that BS that Dragonboy was spewing a while back?

[Metal_Sonic]

??? Is this that BS that Dragonboy was spewing a while back?

Nope, no BS, I have an extremely reliable source, its 100% true, no lies whatsoever.

[kool kitty89]

OK, I found some more info on the subject:

http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=329&title=Developer's%20Den:%20Digital%20Pictures


It's ironic that although people automatically associate Zito's games with the Sega CD, his first attempt at bringing his "interactive television" to consoles was with Nintendo, not Sega. In 1991, Nintendo announced its "Play Station," which would play both SNES cartridges and Sony's own 680 meg Super Disc. The deal had originally been drawn up in 1988, and by now plans were already being drawn up to secure content for the add-on. In addition to Trilobyte's 7th Guest, Zito's games were being considered, specifically Sewer Shark. Mickey Schulhof, chairman of Sony U.S.A. and Peter Gruber, head of Columbia Pictures, were so fascinated by the footage of the game they had seen that they were looking to buy the company that had created it. When Zito was informed of the visit, he hopped on a plane and went to New York. He had already purchased back the rights to both titles when the Control-Vision project died, and he was itching to finally bring them to market. Schulhof signed him as a developer for the Nintendo Playstation, and Zito formed Digital Pictures so he could begin updating both Night Trap and Sewer Shark.

A year later, Nintendo shocked Sony and the world at the Consumer Electronics Show by revealing that it would instead be going with Philips N.V. for its CD add-on. As Sony was to be the sole worldwide licenser of software released on the Super Disc format, it was basically going to take away software royalties from Nintendo, and this was simply something that the House of Mario would not allow. Effectively betraying Sony, Nintendo eventually scrapped its CD plans altogether, leaving Zito once again without a place to sell his games. Fortunately for him, Sega's own CD add-on was already well underway, and Digital Pictures became a licensee in spite of Zito's poor opinion of the hardware. He had preferred the Playstation model due to the superior video quality it offered. "The incredible irony of it, "Zito told historian Steven Kent, "was that the video we plugged into the Super Nintendo was just terrific because Super NES could display 256 colors at once. Sega CD could only put up 32 colors at a time, so you had this horrible grainy look to the images." Sewer Shark and Night Trap were upgraded for Sega's new add-on at the cost of $3 million and $1.5 million, respectively.


So based on thsi, it didn't go down as Fulop described, and in fact the SNES was technically a better platform for FMV due to the higher color capabilities. (this is a given though)

Digital Pictures offered it to Sony, not Nintendo, prior to Nintendo breaking their partnership, it was the breaking of the Sony-Nintendo partnership that changed things.

BTW, Sony had control over disc releases on the SNES Play Station, thus it would have been their decision wether to publish the game and release if to the console, not Nintendo's; this being the major dealbreaker for Nintendo -they had no control over the disc portion of the console, and no software licencing profits either (which is the main area of profits on a console, along with first party software profits) and the primary reason for their shift in partnership to Phillips. (as there was almost nothing in it for Nintendo with the existing Play Station deal)

[Rusty Venture]

Mentioning Nintendo's breaking their contract with Sony does little to paint them in a better light.

[kool kitty89]

They didn't and legally couldn't break their contract, they broke the partnership, but both were still bound by the original terms of the agreement. (Nintendo working on an entirely new design with Phillips, which never came to fruition for a number of reasons)

This led to later legal disputes though, when Sony continued development of the SNES+CD hardware design, and eventually Sony and Nintendo came to the agreement that Sony could still build their independent console based on the combined hardware, but must include compatibility with Nintendo's cartridges. Eventhually the older SNES derived CD console was abandoned in favor of an all-new next gen system, and the rest, is history.

And I do agree that was an extremely manipulative and discraceful act on the part of Nintendo of America (even for the coporate world), at least Sega managed do defend themselves well, and produced something positive to the industry.

[17daysolderthannes]

I kind of see the ratings as the real legitimization of the video game medium. It finally recognizes that video games are not just destined to forever be childrens toys, but can instead be designed for and enjoyed by adults. Most places still don't enforce the ratings anyway, they're just there so parents have an idea what they're buying for their kids. I can see why Grand Theft Auto wouldn't be the first choice for a 5 year old, but how would parents know without a rating (unless they read the title: Grand Theft Auto, lol). Its only when self-righteous douchebag stores see it as "right" to no longer carry M rated games that it gets to be a problem, much like Wal-Mart won't carry explicit CD's (or at least they used to not).

[Rusty Venture]

And I do agree that was an extremely manipulative and discraceful act on the part of Nintendo of America (even for the coporate world), at least Sega managed do defend themselves well, and produced something positive to the industry.

The 16-bit wars don't really affect my opinion of Nintendo, but their actions with the Senate Hearings, censorship, and claiming the "moral high ground" unless $$ was involved, really soured me on them.

I'm sure they aren't alone in the business world, but it burns when it was a company I used to like.

[Metal_Sonic]

I'm cool with Nintendo as long as they keep pumping out solid games for the Wii and the DS.

[17daysolderthannes]

I'm cool with Nintendo as long as they keep pumping out solid games for the Wii and the DS.

are you being sarcastic?

[jerry coeurl]

I'm cool with Nintendo as long as they keep pumping out solid games for the Wii

I'd think they'd have to start pumping out solid games for the Wii, first. I have seen some solid first party games but they are few and far in between, for the most part they seem more interested in churning out casual crap like Wii Fit Celebrity Plus or that stupid game where you climb a wall and then play guitar when you get to the top.

The 64 was my first Nintendo system, and I definitely noticed that there was such a long wait between good or great first-party titles. Were they the same way during the SNES-era? I've always imagined so, just that no one noticed because they had lots of quality 3rd-party titles coming out at the time. Of course that's just speculation on my part.

[Baloo]

I'd think they'd have to start pumping out solid games for the Wii, first. I have seen some solid first party games but they are few and far in between, for the most part they seem more interested in churning out casual crap like Wii Fit Celebrity Plus or that stupid game where you climb a wall and then play guitar when you get to the top.

The 64 was my first Nintendo system, and I definitely noticed that there was such a long wait between good or great first-party titles. Were they the same way during the SNES-era? I've always imagined so, just that no one noticed because they had lots of quality 3rd-party titles coming out at the time. Of course that's just speculation on my part.

Yeah, Nintendo 64 did that. But some of the games were so good most people like myself didn't even give a crap. Smash Bros, Mario Party, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and Mario Kart 64? Forget it, those were like the only 4 games you needed.

But there is some good 3rd party stuff, you are right.

[Knuckle Duster]

Were they the same way during the SNES-era? I've always imagined so, just that no one noticed because they had lots of quality 3rd-party titles coming out at the time. Of course that's just speculation on my part.

Nothing's changed in Nintendoland, aside from a franchise roster mix up.
The only thing they have going for them is their track record for 'quality', everything else is bogged down by lengthy delays for 'safe' releases.

I love nintendo, but I don't find them very 'creative' any more, the N64 was the end of it. As soon as Pokemon came out, and they entered 'Milking Mode' I stopped caring. Everything since has been a gimmicky mask upon stale concepts. The exception being the first Metroid Prime IMO, that game was ground breaking for being a 'Perfect', first person adventure platformer. It's only fittingly ironic that Nintendo 'outsourced it'.

[jerry coeurl]

Yeah, I love Metroid Prime. It was the last Nintendo game that really struck me as exceptional.

[MrMatthews]

The exception being the first Metroid Prime IMO, that game was ground breaking for being a 'Perfect', first person adventure platformer. It's only fittingly ironic that Nintendo 'outsourced it'.


True, although according to legend, Retro Studios struggled quite a bit during the development of the game, so Miyamoto stepped in to guide them a little bit.

If that's true, I wonder if it's a coincidence that the first Metroid Prime was the best one.

[Melf]

We also have a full article (http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=57&title=Genesis%20Firsts:%20The%20Rating%20System) on the birth of the rating system. :)

I've always loved how Lincoln denounced Night Trap but made no mention of Nintendo's interest in it, or how he criticizes the ratings Sega uses as not going far enough, but the SNES version of MK 2 has only a rating on it. Never mind the fact that he was all high and mighty about MK until he saw the Genesis version outsell the SNES one 2 to 1. He sure did forget his morals for the sequel!

[kool kitty89]

Yeah, Nintendo 64 did that. But some of the games were so good most people like myself didn't even give a crap. Smash Bros, Mario Party, Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time, and Mario Kart 64? Forget it, those were like the only 4 games you needed.

But there is some good 3rd party stuff, you are right.

Don't forget their heavy hitting second party Rare! Many would say Diddy Kong Rracing was superior to Mario Kart 64, and dont forget Banjo, Conker, Perfect Dark, and of course, the system's best selling game and revolutionary console exclusive FPS: Goldeneye.

3rd party was limited, and inconsitant in quality on the N64, there were quite a few cheap, simple, though decent titles thrown in, and some decen multiplatform titles, but 3rd party support was dominated by the PSX in that generation.

The most significant 3rd party (especially in technical terms) was Lucas Arts/Factor 5 with Indiana Jones, Rogue Squadron, Battle for Naboo, Pod Racer (only the latter being superior on the PC and Dreamcast, with Indiana Jones being superior on the N64). They've got some of the most graphically (and technically in general) impressive games on the console, writing custom microcode to push past the limitations of SGI's generic code, producing textures of much higher quality than normal, amazing visuals, above average resolution (requiring memory expansion, except for Indi), and a very high polygon count. (BFN in particular had a particularly long draw distance)

There was quite a gap between "good" hyped releases on the N64, though that wasn't an issue for customers like my family who didn't buy it until christmas of 1999 as there was already a wealth of titles out there. (we had rented it several times previously and a couple freinds had it too)

[Rusty Venture]

I've always loved how Lincoln denounced Night Trap but made no mention of Nintendo's interest in it, or how he criticizes the ratings Sega uses as not going far enough, but the SNES version of MK 2 has only a rating on it. Never mind the fact that he was all high and mighty about MK until he saw the Genesis version outsell the SNES one 2 to 1. He sure did forget his morals for the sequel!

Nothing like $$ to make you overlook your morals.

Which is why I can't respect Nintendo.

I can respect systems and games, but I can't respect the company itself.