Prototype Super Famicom & redesigned Famicom from 1988 [Archive]

parallaxscroll

07-03-2009, 02:29 AM

I don't know why Nintendo showed off a prototype of the Super Famicom
to the Japanese press so early, in late 1988, other than to draw attention
away from the just-released SEGA Megadrive.

This was a full two years before the final version was released in Japan
in November 1990 and about three years before the U.S. SNES release in
August (or September) 1991.

1988 Super Famicom prototype

http://i35.tinypic.com/e80pk0.jpg

http://i40.tinypic.com/206ok89.jpg

http://i44.tinypic.com/3323wwz.jpg

Also in the same style as the 16-bit Super Famicom prototype,
a redesigned 8-bit Famicom to go with its more advanced brother:

http://i40.tinypic.com/33ux2km.jpg

I like this much better than the redesign that was released, the AV Famicom
and redesigned NES, that came out a few years later.

As for that Super Famicom prototype, I really like it also. Very much.
Perhaps, in some people's opinions, it's not as good as the final, released
Japanese Super Famicom of 1990, but without question it *is* FAR
better-looking than the American SNES of 1991. IMO.

I dig the Fisher-Price look, of both.

The first time I ever saw that 1988 SFC prototype and that redesigned Famicom
was in EGM issue #2 in their 16-Bit article from summer 1989. Here's the complete
article for your enjoyment:

http://i41.tinypic.com/rvyjcg.jpg
http://i41.tinypic.com/fom4vo.jpg
http://i42.tinypic.com/678n5z.jpg
http://i40.tinypic.com/zklwtg.jpg

Flygon

07-03-2009, 05:39 AM

Odd, I never saw every game using a 512*448 resolution.

Nunzio

07-03-2009, 05:55 AM

Wonderful to read, thanks for posting.

Aarzak

07-03-2009, 06:16 AM

Aarzak

07-03-2009, 06:17 AM

Odd, I never saw every game using a 512*448 resolution.

I believe it was only used for menus and logo screens. It looks pretty badass and sharp, the resolution that is.

parallaxscroll

07-03-2009, 06:51 AM

I've seen these pics before, yet its still fascinating to read about these prototypes. The SFC hardware was supposedly completed by late 1988/early 1989, but Nintendo held back the release up until late 1990 because the Famicom/NES was still selling by the bucketloads.

Nintendo changed the specifications of the Super Famicom at least twice between 1988 and 1990. Among other things, originally, it was to have more extensive sprite-manipulation hardware (scaling & rotation), but it was cut back. The Mode-7 ability that the final SFC/SNES had was a mere shadow of what was supposed to be in there. Nintendo had to put this capability 'back in' for Pilotwings (and perhaps other games) in the form of the DSP in the cartridge.

An interesting post I found on Usenet

http://groups.google.com/group/comp.sys.apple2/msg/c48edd4e1b8fd69c?hl=en&dmode=source

The first batch of games for the Super Famicom were developed around
1988 and 1989. Popular Super Famicom titles, like F-Zero and Super
Mario World, were the most difficult for several reasons--if nothing
else, the Super Famicom hardware specifications changed in small ways
at least twice during the development project, requiring changes to
existing code. (Trivia tidbit: the original Super Famicom plans called
for much more extensive onboard 3D hardware--PilotWings was developed
assuming that this hardware would be present, and since this chip was
scrapped from the Super Famicom at the last minute, Nintendo was forced
to include this 3D chip on the PilotWings board in order to keep the
game on schedule.)

I also remember reading that the VRAM was increased between 1989 and 1990.

Also, although I have nothing to confirm it, I've read that the SFC was also supposed to have a 68000 CPU @ 10 MHz. I'm not nearly as certain about that. Wow if true.

parallaxscroll

07-03-2009, 06:59 AM

More pics of the Super Famicom,
The 'Dragonfly' flight simulator demo that became Pilotwings,
and other interesting stuff!

Special thanks & credit to Chris Covell for uploading these.

http://i42.tinypic.com/2mzkvtg.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/157koex.jpg

http://i43.tinypic.com/2qnxkyx.jpg

two different Dragonfly title screens
http://i40.tinypic.com/2mzd0uo.jpg
http://i44.tinypic.com/f2qza9.jpg

Dragonfly, the prolific tech demo for the SFC!
http://i42.tinypic.com/vkxmv.jpg

Dragonfly and.....Altered Beast! probably just comparing SFC to the Megadrive...
http://i44.tinypic.com/33ksz7t.jpg

The amazing Dragonfly
http://i39.tinypic.com/sux7w3.jpg

Dragonfly and obviously talking about SFC graphic capabilities....hey there's AfterBurner !
http://i39.tinypic.com/9j2mug.jpg

http://i41.tinypic.com/2dqlea0.jpg
"Expected types of games you'll be able to play!!"
The Famitsu staff speculate at the types of games the SFC will be able to run, such as those with lots of scaling/rotation, high-quality images, video effects, mathematical caluclations (such as simulations)... There's Namco's Metal Hawk arcade game.

early Super Mario World and more Dragonfly...with an actual dragonfly!
http://i43.tinypic.com/2kec7o.jpg

Super Famicom prototype from 1989, closer to the final design.
http://i44.tinypic.com/11tvgnp.jpg

Christuserloeser

07-03-2009, 12:03 PM

It's beautiful.

There's no doubt that the early Super Famicom games were way ahead of most Mega Drive games available at that time - with a few exceptions of course, like Revenge of Shinobi. Many Mega Drive games released from 1990 on would however proof the potential of Sega's hardware.

In later years, probably around 1994, Super Famicom games again began to look superior to anything Sega released for Mega Drive. In part because Sega of Japan slowly shifted focus towards Saturn, but also because of the incredible amount of crap that was released for the Genesis in the US, and the ever increasing number of Japanese games that were not localized for the Western markets: Surging Aura, Hybrid Front, Dragon Slayer 1+2, Langrisser II, Monster World 4, Pulseman, Alien Soldier, Yu Yu Hakusho, etc. pp.

I believe it was only used for menus and logo screens. It looks pretty badass and sharp, the resolution that is.

I think there were only a handful games that used it for whatever purpose. Most games ran in the NES resolution of 256x224.

parallaxscroll

07-03-2009, 06:36 PM

It's beautiful.

Which one, the first proto?

Kogen

07-03-2009, 07:24 PM

Some of those stats seem a bit 'off'. I am certain the MD had a higher resolution than the TG16?

The pinball game on both consoles seems to enforce that, with the MD one having extra menus seemingly due to resolution.

And just curious, has that (or anything similar) Mario World beta ever been released?

parallaxscroll

07-03-2009, 07:28 PM

EGM's tech spec charts are always off, I've seen several charts from different issues with incorrect stats. pay no attention to those.

Christuserloeser

07-03-2009, 08:34 PM

Yes and no, I meant the final design of the Japanese Super Famicom. Seing these many design studies really show the amount of work and attention to detail they've put into its look.

And yeah, these stats are completely off. If they list 512x448 for the SFC, the Genesis should be listed with 320x448 (dunno if it could do 640x448), and PC Engine / TG-16 with 512×224 - with practically all but one game using 256x224, like with NES and Super Famicom. So, yeah, Genesis' 320x224 equals HIGH DEFINITION GRAPHICS just like in the arcades - but only Europeans know that their Mega Drives are capable of HIGH DEFINITION GRAPHICS AND STEREO SOUND too !

jamesdude

07-15-2009, 05:24 PM

Dragonfly......why does that look familiar.....

http://wiiclube.uol.com.br/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/12/pilotwings_snes.jpg

parallaxscroll

07-15-2009, 07:44 PM

As said.....Dragonfly became Pilotwings.

kool kitty89

07-15-2009, 07:57 PM

Yes and no, I meant the final design of the Japanese Super Famicom. Seing these many design studies really show the amount of work and attention to detail they've put into its look.

And yeah, these stats are completely off. If they list 512x448 for the SFC, the Genesis should be listed with 320x448 (dunno if it could do 640x448), and PC Engine / TG-16 with 512×224 - with practically all but one game using 256x224, like with NES and Super Famicom.

320×240 is the maximum standard resolution for the Genesis, the 320×448/480 is interlaced, and not often used. (none of the above TG-16 figures are interlaced, notice it's the horizontal resulution that's higher for the TG-16 figure) The Genesis also had a 256×224/240 mode as well, but that wan't ofent used. (only 2 or 3 games iirc) BTW the highest (noninterlaced) resolution on the SNES would be 512×239.

Aarzak

07-15-2009, 08:28 PM

I think there were only a handful games that used it for whatever purpose. Most games ran in the NES resolution of 256x224.

I read that the SNES hardware was heavily restricted at that resolution, and that it could only produce basic graphics at that high of a res. I've only ever seen it used on menus and logo screens.

Back on-topic, sucks that we'll probably never see those SMW & Dragonfly protos.........Nintendo sounds like a company that had maximum security on anything and everything they showcased, especially a new console.

I bet that, as what happened with the Dreamcast, the Mega Drive was haunted by the looming shadow of the Super Famicom from the very start in Japan. Even though it was quite a ways away from being released, the Nintendo faithful probably chose to wait it out until it was released, staying loyal to their Famicoms in the meantime and all but ignoring the Mega Drive. Then again, considering the sparse and craptastic lineup of games that the MD had in its first year I wouldn't blame them........wish I can find that list again. Months went by without any games for the MD in its first year, dang.

gamevet

07-15-2009, 09:37 PM

I bet that, as what happened with the Dreamcast, the Mega Drive was haunted by the looming shadow of the Super Famicom from the very start in Japan. Even though it was quite a ways away from being released, the Nintendo faithful probably chose to wait it out until it was released, staying loyal to their Famicoms in the meantime and all but ignoring the Mega Drive. Then again, considering the sparse and craptastic lineup of games that the MD had in its first year I wouldn't blame them........wish I can find that list again. Months went by without any games for the MD in its first year, dang.

One of the greatest RPGs of all time came out in March of 1989. Phantasy Star II was the title that convinced me to buy the console from a friend back in 1990.

I'm kicking myself now though, since I'd sold my High Definition Graphics model 1 Genesis to get Saturn games. I bought a crappy model 2 years later, when I started realizing how much I missed the console.

Joe Redifer

07-15-2009, 09:45 PM

Black_Tiger

07-15-2009, 09:57 PM

I've asked many times in the past and in many different places, but what are some of the "menu and logo screens" in SNES games that use its highest resolution? I have never seen the SNES interlace and I rented most games that were available for it.

Since there seems to be no specifics listed any where online in english, I'm assuming that it's an unused feature.

kool kitty89

07-15-2009, 10:13 PM

Since there seems to be no specifics listed any where online in english, I'm assuming that it's an unused feature.

It was used, but in very few games, I cant remember which thread it came up in, but it was some racing game. It was also mentioned that interlacing puts significant limitations on with the SNES can display. (particularly on-screen colors)

I'm not sure of games that used the highest, non interlaced resolutions (higher horizontal res, 512x224/239), not sure of limitations of that either. (this didn't come up at all in the other thread, though it was mentioned that the MD/Genesis could, and did display in 320x448/480i, the most notable example probably being splitscreen multiplayer in Sonic 2)

Edit, found it: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?p=150302

The Game was RPM Racing.

Black_Tiger

07-16-2009, 03:32 AM

Has anyone actually confirmed that Rock 'n Roll Racing runs in the high res mode? All the screen shots I've ever seen are 256 x 223. But I don't remember if any were split-screen.

the MD/Genesis could, and did display in 320x448/480i, the most notable example probably being splitscreen multiplayer in Sonic 2

What other Genesis/Mega Drive games use the interlaced mode?

Joe Redifer

07-16-2009, 03:37 AM

Ys 3 does it if you enable it, but all it does is line double. The actual detail does not increase causing a higher-resolution image as it does in Sonic 2's two-player mode.

Black_Tiger

07-16-2009, 12:25 PM

Ys 3 does it if you enable it, but all it does is line double. The actual detail does not increase causing a higher-resolution image as it does in Sonic 2's two-player mode.

Has anyone ever found any reason why Ys III does that? I remember when it first came out on Genesis and it just looked like the screen was shaking.

tomaitheous

07-16-2009, 01:42 PM

320×240 is the maximum standard resolution for the Genesis, the 320×448/480 is interlaced, and not often used. (none of the above TG-16 figures are interlaced, notice it's the horizontal resulution that's higher for the TG-16 figure) The Genesis also had a 256×224/240 mode as well, but that wan't ofent used. (only 2 or 3 games iirc) BTW the highest (noninterlaced) resolution on the SNES would be 512×239.

Genesis is only XXX by 240 in PAL mode. It's XXX by 224 in NSTC max for non-interlaced. PC-Engine is up to 242 vertical in NTSC (or PAL). SNES has a 224/239 vertical mode options in both PAL and NTSC. PCE's horiztonal resolutions are 256/344/512. You can extend the horizontal resolution into overscan is you wish @ 288/384/576 max. But that doesn't change the pixel size, so that useless IMO. On a side note; PCE is the only system to match Capcom's CPS-1 system without having to redraw the graphics (PCE's mid res mode). There is an interlace mode for PCE, but it's not "official" and only works on capture cards or SD TV sets. No game uses it.

And yeah, these stats are completely off. If they list 512x448 for the SFC, the Genesis should be listed with 320x448 (dunno if it could do 640x448)

Yeah, list the max for the SNES but not the Genesis (or the PCE either). EGM... the worlds best magazine :p

and PC Engine / TG-16 with 512×224 - with practically all but one game using 256x224,

Only 4 games use 512x240/224 res mode. Most games use 256x240 and about 25% games using 344x240. 512x224 is wasteful on vram (as are interlaced modes).

So, yeah, Genesis' 320x224 equals HIGH DEFINITION GRAPHICS just like in the arcades - but only Europeans know that their Mega Drives are capable of HIGH DEFINITION GRAPHICS AND STEREO SOUND too!

I still take issue with the claim of "stereo". Hard left/right is dual mono(the original meaning). Anything "stereo" requires pairing two channels for a single stereo channel. Genesis has the "weakest" stereo of the three systems listed.

Aarzak

07-16-2009, 04:22 PM

It was used, but in very few games, I cant remember which thread it came up in, but it was some racing game. It was also mentioned that interlacing puts significant limitations on with the SNES can display. (particularly on-screen colors)

I'm not sure of games that used the highest, non interlaced resolutions (higher horizontal res, 512x224/239), not sure of limitations of that either. (this didn't come up at all in the other thread, though it was mentioned that the MD/Genesis could, and did display in 320x448/480i, the most notable example probably being splitscreen multiplayer in Sonic 2)

Edit, found it: http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?p=150302

The Game was RPM Racing.

Also, the opening logo intros to "Yu Yu Hakusho" on the SNES, even though it might not show on this YT video, you can check it out for yourself on ZSNES:

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/k9k5iSjB_Lk&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/k9k5iSjB_Lk&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

And from my recollection, certain menu screens in "Secret Of Mana" and "Tales Of Phantasia".

Joe Redifer

07-16-2009, 04:50 PM

I still take issue with the claim of "stereo". Hard left/right is dual mono(the original meaning). Anything "stereo" requires pairing two channels for a single stereo channel. Genesis has the "weakest" stereo of the three systems listed.

I wouldn't go so far as to make a big deal out of that. It did a much better job than the Amiga. Also, Stereo cannot be a "single" channel. Both channels are completely independent of each other at all times. And since the Genesis can do sounds out of both the left and right at the same time from a single channel and it doesn't sound like hard-panned ASS like the Amiga, that's stereo to me!

Mamba Tabac

07-16-2009, 06:01 PM

On the subject of the super nintendo - have a look at this mod...
http://kotaku.com/5314876/the-stuff-super-nintendo-nightmares-are-made-of

tomaitheous

07-16-2009, 07:44 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to make a big deal out of that. It did a much better job than the Amiga.

Yeah, it's not fixed like the Amiga but it's only a small step up.

Also, Stereo cannot be a "single" channel. Both channels are completely independent of each other at all times.

A single internal channel on a "stereo" synth/audio has fine pan left/right. That's what stereo is. I'm not referring to the two external channels. If you want to do proper stereo like the other two system, then you "loose" an internal channel for every "stereo" channel you setup. Or use hard left/right would sounds like ass most of the time.

And since the Genesis can do sounds out of both the left and right at the same time from a single channel and it doesn't sound like hard-panned ASS like the Amiga, that's stereo to me!

Yeah, left and right at the same time from a single channel, but that equates to mono out. Woohoo, mono! The NES was ahead of its time ;)

gamevet

07-16-2009, 08:28 PM

I wouldn't go so far as to make a big deal out of that. It did a much better job than the Amiga. Also, Stereo cannot be a "single" channel. Both channels are completely independent of each other at all times. And since the Genesis can do sounds out of both the left and right at the same time from a single channel and it doesn't sound like hard-panned ASS like the Amiga, that's stereo to me!

Amiga sound absolutely blows the Genesis out of the water. It's no contest.

And yes, the Amiga can do FM sound.

tomaitheous

07-16-2009, 08:45 PM

And yes, the Amiga can do FM sound.

You're referring to classic model Amigas? It's not really FM (or at least in the sense you're probably thinking). Unless you mean 'sampled' FM, which a ton of games did (I'd say 99% of Amiga mods are made with sampled synth, FM or otherwise).

gamevet

07-16-2009, 09:21 PM

You're referring to classic model Amigas? It's not really FM (or at least in the sense you're probably thinking). Unless you mean 'sampled' FM, which a ton of games did (I'd say 99% of Amiga mods are made with sampled synth, FM or otherwise).

The Amiga sound hardware could be programmed to do more than what was out of the box.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Amiga?t=2.2.2.

Although the hardware is limited to four separate sound channels, software such as OctaMED uses software mixing to allow eight or more virtual channels, and it was possible for software to mix two hardware channels to achieve a single 14-bit resolution channel by playing with the volumes of the channels in such a way that one of the source channels contributes the most significant bits and the other the least ones.

The quality of the Amiga's sound output, and the fact that the hardware is ubiquitous and easily addressed by software, were standout features of Amiga hardware unavailable on PC platforms for years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Original_chipset

Additionally the hardware allows one channel in a channel pair to modulate the other channel's period or amplitude. It is rarely used on the Amiga due to both frequency and volume being controllable in better ways, but could be used to achieve different kinds of tremolo and vibrato, and even rudimentary FM synthesis effects.

Black_Tiger

07-16-2009, 09:27 PM

Also, the opening logo intros to "Yu Yu Hakusho" on the SNES, even though it might not show on this YT video, you can check it out for yourself on ZSNES:

And from my recollection, certain menu screens in "Secret Of Mana" and "Tales Of Phantasia".

I tried out Rock 'n Roll Racing in ZSNES (including split screen), everything looked normal and all the screen shots it spit out were 256 x 223. Same with that Yu Yu Hakusho game.

Of course Gens also spits out normal sized images for Ys III and Sonic 2, but the Sonic 2 split screen at least looks like it's running in the higher resolution since things are squished. The spilt screen for RnRR looks the same as single player mode.

tomaitheous

07-16-2009, 09:47 PM

Gamevet: I'm aware of the tricks are available for amiga audio, and this has already been discussed here at sega-16.

The reason why I asked if you are/were referring to stock/classic Amigas ( Amiga's without PPC cards or faster 66mhz & /020/030/040's), is because anything can be done in software emulation *if* you have the spare cpu resource. PC's have been emulating FM chips for almost decades.

The distinguishing feature of MED and OctaMED in comparison to other music trackers on the Amiga was that MED and OctaMED were chiefly used by musicians to create stand-alone works, rather than by game or demo musicians to make tunes that play in the context of a computer game or demo. Firstly, this is because the MED and OctaMED music replay routine is simply too slow to be used in a game or demo.

It's still sampled synth - not FM. And... software mixing is taxing on the CPU. As original stock/hardware usage, is pretty much resource free. It's kinda like those c64 demos with awesome sounding music routines/demos, only that they aren't a viable option for a game unless you're running a 20mhz addon processor (Super CPU).

When you use the term "Amiga", it can mean *any* model or speed range - including PPC addon cards. PPC Amiga setup's *might* have software FM synth app, but a classic Amiga does not.

milkmanv1

07-16-2009, 10:00 PM

haha thats pretty crazy, I've seen some art that were early concept designs (supposedly) of the snes. and thought that was crazy, but I like the prototype sfc alot too.

gamevet

07-16-2009, 10:15 PM

Gamevet: I'm aware of the tricks are available for amiga audio, and this has already been discussed here at sega-16.

The reason why I asked if you are/were referring to stock/classic Amigas ( Amiga's without PPC cards or faster 66mhz & /020/030/040's), is because anything can be done in software emulation *if* you have the spare cpu resource. PC's have been emulating FM chips for almost decades.

It's still sampled synth - not FM. And... software mixing is taxing on the CPU. As original stock/hardware usage, is pretty much resource free. It's kinda like those c64 demos with awesome sounding music routines/demos, only that they aren't a viable option for a game unless you're running a 20mhz addon processor (Super CPU).

When you use the term "Amiga", it can mean *any* model or speed range - including PPC addon cards. PPC Amiga setup's *might* have software FM synth app, but a classic Amiga does not.

Of course I'm talking about the lowest common denominator.

Do you honestly believe that even though the Genesis has true FM, that it has better sounding stereo music tracks? The background hum (appears to be coming from the carrier wave) that comes out of a lot of Genesis soundtracks really is a downer for me.

Joe Redifer

07-17-2009, 03:35 AM

kool kitty89

07-17-2009, 04:24 AM

The Amiga sound hardware could be programmed to do more than what was out of the box.

http://wapedia.mobi/en/Amiga?t=2.2.2.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amiga_Original_chipset

In addition to what's been said, there was this previous discussion, where'd I'd thought similarly about the Amiga's "FM" synthesis:
http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?p=151598&highlight=Amiga+synthesis#post151598

And a related discussion on the Amiga, here: http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7203

One thing I've still been ondering is if the Amiga's SID like tunes used some other sound generation featured by Paula, or if it's just using samples of SID like sounds.

Joe, it doesn't really sound like tom was saying the Genesis's sound sucked, just that its "stereo" (panning specifically) was rather limited. (being full L or R, or dual mono for each channel, wich can still be useful and certainly more flexible than plain mono -of course any actual panning done with digital samples through the DAC would need to be done in software)

Speaking of this, could the Z80 also do panning of the FM or PSG channels in software? (It wouldn't necessarly have to be the Z80, the 68k should be able to handel it too, of course that cuts in on its resourses)

In any case, even if the Genesis had been limited to mono output (as many users probably experienced it back in the day via RF, or mono AV cables), it still sounded good when properly utilized. THe YM2612's FM Synthesis plus the 4 channel PSG giving a contrasting sound, and occasionally some samples played via the DAC, either voice/sound effect, instrument (especially percussion), or singing/vocals. (with 6th channel FM disabled)

Joe Redifer

07-17-2009, 04:56 AM

I was just going by his comment of:

Or use hard left/right would sounds like ass most of the time.

Anyway, I don't think full panning could be done in software.

gamevet

07-17-2009, 05:55 AM

I think the Genesis has better sounding music tracks than the Amiga. Sure, the Amiga could do better samples, but the Genesis just sounds more pleasant (and not like ass which tomatheus kind of insinuates) for the most part. There were some Amiga MODs that I enjoyed but I cannot get past the super hard panning of every instrument and only 4 channels. It is nowhere near as bad on the Genesis. I can't even stand songs by The Beatles which feature hard panned instruments (and sometimes vocals as well). Ass! I usually collapse those tunes to near-mono to enjoy them.

Anyway, just because a single sound channel can only do 100%, 50% and -100% directionality I wouldn't say it wasn't stereo. I'd just say the panning abilities are lacking. I've yet to be "blown away" by sound on the other two consoles solely because "it was on the left, but only kind of". Nice feature, yes. But not the end of the world in the 16-bit days and it certainly doesn't make one console sound better or worse than the others as a result.

Shadow of the Beast sounds great to me. The Genesis version (though the first video sounds like someone pulled a mono clip from a model 2) just doesn't even come close to sounding as smooth. Even the drum beats are grainy sounding and the panning isn't anything to get excited about. You can clearly hear the drum playing at about 10% on the right channel and being about 90% on the left in the Amiga version; there's no hard panning there.

Yeah, I've heard some great music tracks from Technosoft and Sega's Streets of Rage series, but for the most part I've been somewhat disappointed that Sega didn't design better sound hardware for the Genesis.

qipWqOwkceg

k18YJTa_pNs

aCPG7D-QsbE

uiAUZe_kL_Y

Christuserloeser

07-17-2009, 08:10 AM

I still take issue with the claim of "stereo". Hard left/right is dual mono(the original meaning). Anything "stereo" requires pairing two channels for a single stereo channel. Genesis has the "weakest" stereo of the three systems listed.

Stereo in a nutshell means two channels with different content. That's what the Genesis does (and Nintendon't).

Amiga sound absolutely blows the Genesis out of the water. It's no contest.

I've heard some great music tracks from Technosoft and Sega's Streets of Rage series, but for the most part I've been somewhat disappointed that Sega didn't design better sound hardware for the Genesis.

Genesis has FM, PSG and PCM. It does 53khz with FM, 194khz for PSG (or a similar ridiculously high value), and people have been pushing their PCM Z80 drivers to play 22khz without even touching the M68k:

http://8bitcollective.com/items/music/KyubiCoast.mp3

If the games sound like ass, it is because of the bloody hardware revisions (see model 2), bad emulation (see your emulator) and the damn GEMS sound engine (http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index.php/Mega_Drive/Genesis_Sound_Engine_List) - or those derived from it, which probably includes even those by Tommy Tallarico, Matt Furnis, Shaun Hollingworth, Jesper Kyd and Chris Hülsbeck. But unlike these guys, most Western developers just used the stock variant* which is why their games sound so awful.
If you provide people with PlayStation 3 hardware but they're using it to make a PS1 game instead, then that's not a problem of the hardware.

*GEMS was used by each and every single one of Sega of America's and Acclaim's games. The others we're used to would be lesser known GEMS derivatives like the one by Probe, Core, Psygnosis, Sound Images, BITS, Imagitek, the Accolade sound engine, or those by Electronic Arts.

parallaxscroll

07-17-2009, 12:37 PM

I've always thought the Megadrive / Genesis had good sound hardware. Games like Revenge of Shinobi, Herzog Zwei, Phantasy Star II, Thunder Force III, Sword of Vermilion and other Japanese programmed games proved that. I don't know all the technical stuff of the sound hardware but the reason many people say Genesis games sound awful are because of the countless western-developed games in the middle and later years of the lifecycle that sounded bad. Do to the changes in Genesis hardware, poor programming, poor sound engines, etc, as Christuserloeser has pointed out.

I'm glad that I owned a Genesis fairly early in its lifecycle, I got mine April 1990. While not the start of Megadrive's life, that's still within the first 7-8 months of U.S. launch. The Genesis left a good impression on me with regard to sound. I felt it was far better than the TurboGrafx-16 in that regard. This was the area that Genesis seemed to be closest to arcade quality. I could always expect good renditions of Sega's arcade music on Genesis. I'm glad the many awful sounding Genesis games of later years did not taint my perceptions of what Genesis could do with sound.

gamevet

07-17-2009, 01:13 PM

If the games sound like ass, it is because of the bloody hardware revisions (see model 2), bad emulation (see your emulator) .

I had an early Sega Genesis model 1 from late 89 and I'd used the headphone jack to pump out the stereo sound. Like I said earlier, companies like Technosoft did some amazing things with the soundchip, but there were times when even Sega released titles that just didn't sound that great.

Am I the only person that noticed the humming noise that came out of the system, shortly after the music had stopped?

TmEE

07-17-2009, 03:14 PM

That humming noise is more related to fault(s) in your particular system.... my systems humm only with weak or faulty AC brick...

EDIT: and comments please on the MP3 Christuserloeser linked :3

tomaitheous

07-17-2009, 07:18 PM

One thing I've still been ondering is if the Amiga's SID like tunes used some other sound generation featured by Paula, or if it's just using samples of SID like sounds.
Sampled SID. But with sample synth you still have control over LFO (vibrato), pitch slides, volume effects, etc.

Joe, it doesn't really sound like tom was saying the Genesis's sound sucked, just that its "stereo" (panning specifically) was rather limited.

Yup, correct. I'm *not* referring to the compositions or distinct sound of that FM chip (which I love about the Genesis, the best music comes from the first generation titles IMO), but just to the hard left/right issue. I guess I'm more sensitive to stereo separation and production than your average joe? Dunno. It was pretty noticeable to me, especially with head phones.

(being full L or R, or dual mono for each channel, wich can still be useful and certainly more flexible than plain mono -of course any actual panning done with digital samples through the DAC would need to be done in software)

Speaking of this, could the Z80 also do panning of the FM or PSG channels in software? (It wouldn't necessarly have to be the Z80, the 68k should be able to handel it too, of course that cuts in on its resourses)

For the DAC (2612), it's only hard left/right/mono settings. You would need two DAC channels to simulate stereo(pan) on the Genesis (where as the SNES/PCE don't). The Genesis setup lacks that, so no pan on the sample write DAC.

But like I said before, you can do "true" stereo with FM channels, it just requires you to *pair* two channels together. Set one to left, one to right, and use each channel's volume -/+ to fine pan slides or fine pan balance that "instrument". I think it's safe to assume most musicians would rather have two independent channels than wasting a channel just to do stereo balancing or slides, just use the occasional hard left/right for when it sounds somewhat appropriate. But it's nice to have true stereo in that it adds to the balancing/mixing of a song to a fuller more enjoyable audible range and experience.

Stereo in a nutshell means two channels with different content.

No it doesn't. Stereo means a single source is equalized/balanced between two outputs (left and right). Dual mono is was your referring to. Stereo has a cross balance to create a more atmospheric sound to it then dual mono. Stereo also allows you to create more surround sound type of effects because of this.

That's why the Genesis does (and Nintendon't).

In the 16 bit generation, Nintendid and Genesisn't when it came to stereo ;)

kool kitty89

07-17-2009, 07:59 PM

But like I said before, you can do "true" stereo with FM channels, it just requires you to *pair* two channels together. Set one to left, one to right, and use each channel's volume -/+ to fine pan slides or fine pan balance that "instrument". I think it's safe to assume most musicians would rather have two independent channels than wasting a channel just to do stereo balancing or slides, just use the occasional hard left/right for when it sounds somewhat appropriate. But it's nice to have true stereo in that it adds to the balancing/mixing of a song to a fuller more enjoyable audible range and experience.

It wouldn't have to be all or nothing, right? Like a single FM stereo channel from the YM2612 (two channels paired) along with 4 more channels doing "dual mono" (or 2 stereo channels plus 2 dual mono). With the channel 6 DAC being used, you could only do 2 stereo plus one mono FM and one digital/DAC channel, right? I'd been under the impression that Paula was a bit more sophisticated than that...

Could the PSG's channels be paired for stereo? (given that it only has 3 tone channels -4th being poise- it would seem like the most you could get is a single stereo channel, if any)

BTW, there was a recent discussion over at AtariAge that mentioned Paula was basicly 4 8-bit DAC's hardwired into 2 stereo channels. So there was no dedicated sound processor/controller for handling music/synthesis? (all done via the CPU?)

kool kitty89

07-17-2009, 08:09 PM

Stereo in a nutshell means two channels with different content. That's what the Genesis does (and Nintendon't).

Genesis has FM, PSG and PCM. It does 53khz with FM, 194khz for PSG (or a similar ridiculously high value), and people have been pushing their PCM Z80 drivers to play 22khz without even touching the M68k:

http://8bitcollective.com/items/music/KyubiCoast.mp3

Yes, I think several people are aware of TmEE's (Tiido) awsome sound engine, particularly those interested in Pier Solar or have just been keeping up with some of his other projects.

Plenty of other awsome ones:
http://8bitcollective.com/music/TmEE/Some+menu+tune.../

Especially his rendition of Guile's theme.

Any of the systems in discussion could have their sound poorly utilized, some Amiga stuff is rather poor, some SNES stuff sounds significantly worse than the Genesis renditions, and some Genesis stuff is done poorly. (likewise the Adlib/Sound Blaster on PC could be poorly utilized, though better husic is handeled quite well, particularly LucasFilm Games/Lucas Arts as well as Sierra, pporer version, particularly game conversions from the Amiga or half assed Arcade ports sounded rather poor and used very few channels, some even sounded similar/poorer than versions on the limited sound hardware of Atari ST)

tomaitheous

07-18-2009, 02:02 AM

It wouldn't have to be all or nothing, right? Like a single FM stereo channel from the YM2612 (two channels paired) along with 4 more channels doing "dual mono" (or 2 stereo channels plus 2 dual mono). With the channel 6 DAC being used, you could only do 2 stereo plus one mono FM and one digital/DAC channel, right?

Correct. So you could do 1+stereo,3+(left/right/mono),1+DAC(left/right/mono). Or 2+stereo,1+(left/right/mono),1+DAC(left/right/mono). For the FM chip that is.

I'd been under the impression that Paula was a bit more sophisticated than that...

Paula had two channels fixed to the left and two channels fixed to the right. If you wanted stereo channel, you had to pair channels like on the Genesis. But it did lack the option of setting left/right/both that Genesis FM provides.

Could the PSG's channels be paired for stereo? (given that it only has 3 tone channels -4th being poise- it would seem like the most you could get is a single stereo channel, if any)

Only on GameGear (and IIRC, only left/right/mono like Genesis FM setup). The Genesis PSG is mixed via analog (iirc, verify with TmEE) and has no control for left/right routing (there are no registers for it).

BTW, there was a recent discussion over at AtariAge that mentioned Paula was basicly 4 8-bit DAC's hardwired into 2 stereo channels. So there was no dedicated sound processor/controller for handling music/synthesis? (all done via the CPU?)

Yeah. All "synth" is handled in software. But that's a little deceiving because the bulk of the work/resource is sample playback at variable frequencies for each channel, and that's exactly what Paula does in hardware. The rest of the 'synth' done via software only takes about 1-3% cpu resource; envelopes, vibrato, tremolo, portamento, arpeggio, pitch selection, pitch slides, etc.

gamevet

07-18-2009, 06:06 AM

That humming noise is more related to fault(s) in your particular system.... my systems humm only with weak or faulty AC brick...

EDIT: and comments please on the MP3 Christuserloeser linked :3

No, I'm talking about the humming noise that was present after a sound clip had played. A prime example is the slight sound you'd hear after the Konami logo displayed on Contra: Hard Corps.

TmEE

07-18-2009, 08:21 AM

That's more hiss not humm.... and its caused by 9bit output of the real YM2612 chip. Term is quanitzation noise

Black_Tiger

07-18-2009, 12:42 PM

There's more to video game music than the sound of an instrument mid-note and 'sample shifters' like the SNES have drawbacks of their own. I prefer system generated music from consoles like the Genesis and TG-16. To me early sample based music like the SNES and even Amiga is kinda like when a game uses fmv to depict in-game quality visuals. Another way to describe how it "feels" for me is like playing a game in emulation instead of on real hardware.

Although people trash the GBA sound all the time, I liked the fact that it sounds more primitive than a SNES, kinda like how I prefer DS graphics to blurred out N64 graphics. :p

I still like SNES music (I've had little hands-on experience with the Amiga), but as time goes on the novelty continues to wears thin and my appreciation for other 8 & 16-bit music grows.

KnightWarrior

07-18-2009, 11:44 PM

*Drools* at the Super Mario World Proto

gamevet

07-20-2009, 04:47 PM

There's more to video game music than the sound of an instrument mid-note and 'sample shifters' like the SNES have drawbacks of their own. I prefer system generated music from consoles like the Genesis and TG-16. To me early sample based music like the SNES and even Amiga is kinda like when a game uses fmv to depict in-game quality visuals. Another way to describe how it "feels" for me is like playing a game in emulation instead of on real hardware.

Yeah, there were times when the SNES and Amiga had what I'd call the canned sound, but can you honestly listen to something like Shadow of the Beast and tell the difference?

A link to the past may have had sampled music, but man does that game's music rock.

xbrinkx

07-21-2009, 02:52 PM

What other Genesis/Mega Drive games use the interlaced mode?

Combat Cars uses it for two-player mode.

KnightWarrior

07-21-2009, 06:18 PM

How much would the SMW Proto be??

Is there a ROM dump??

kool kitty89

07-22-2009, 01:02 AM

Only on GameGear (and IIRC, only left/right/mono like Genesis FM setup). The Genesis PSG is mixed via analog (iirc, verify with TmEE) and has no control for left/right routing (there are no registers for it).

I was listening to some of TmEE's stuff (demo tracks in his MD sound engine) and it definitely sounds like there's PSG on independent channels (even if hard left or hard right). His Guiles Theme remix sounds like it might have it at one point (but that could be FM), but PCM+Square Wave "hapy thing that sounds good" track definitely seems to have it.

Black_Tiger

07-22-2009, 09:17 AM

Yeah, there were times when the SNES and Amiga had what I'd call the canned sound, but can you honestly listen to something like Shadow of the Beast and tell the difference?

A link to the past may have had sampled music, but man does that game's music rock.

I don't know how to describe the elements that stood out for me in those SotB Amiga videos, but there are three "artifacts" that may or may not be due to the video compression. I've mostly played the Turbo CD version since it came out, so that might make imperfections stand out (still sounded cool for sample-based music). I did like how clear the Genesis sounded and how smooth the notes played and shifted. I didn't get to hear enough before they were taken down though.

gamevet

07-22-2009, 11:11 AM

I don't know how to describe the elements that stood out for me in those SotB Amiga videos, but there are three "artifacts" that may or may not be due to the video compression. I've mostly played the Turbo CD version since it came out, so that might make imperfections stand out (still sounded cool for sample-based music). I did like how clear the Genesis sounded and how smooth the notes played and shifted. I didn't get to hear enough before they were taken down though.

I'm not that impressed with it. The Pan-flute is hardly noticeable and the other instruments sound crude. Sure, it was created completely through the hardware, but that doesn't make it more impressive. The infamous Genesis twang can be heard at the beginning of the level.

I gotta laugh at the comments left for the C-64 version of SOB. Those guys are crazy to even think the SID music in that version are even remotely better than that of the Amiga. I love the SID soundchip and all, but it's not even on the level of the Genesis or TG-16.

Here's a direct link to a couple of the Genesis versions (the second isn't of great quality), but I don't think these are the same ones I had posted before. The 3rd video is the pitiful C-64 game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-F2uXkiL7zM&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Q3EZyjX920&feature=related

C-64 version :lol:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jQm68Aln3YA&feature=related

Here's a great comparison of all the versions (Japanese and American MD/Genesis version included) of Shadow of the Beast, with the Atari ST being pretty bad. The PCE version sounds pretty good, but I think the Amiga and FM Towns versions sound the best.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C3b4h-MUjGo

Here are a couple of music compilations for both systems. The Genesis has some great stuff, but I've always felt the Amiga soundchip was unmatched, until the 32-bit consoles came around, with a broader range of sounds than anything else in its era. The SNES soundchip was a close second for me though.

Amiga Music #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u5Eoc8VsV_M&feature=related)

Amiga Music #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTz5iwmtkrs&feature=related)

Genesis Music #1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LaDn78JoNQ)

Genesis Music #2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZVeT6dYwXQ&feature=related)

Since this thread is about the Super Famicom, the awesome SNES music should get its due here as well.

SNES Music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2YZt_aSAx9c)

Christuserloeser

07-22-2009, 07:55 PM

It's a lot of fun to compare a game and its ports but there's next to no conclusion whatsoever that can be drawn about the quality of the hardware that a game has been ported to by judging the performance of a port.

Even with games for which multiple platforms are taken into account during the earliest conceptual phase there will be one single platform determined as its target hardware from which all other ports evolve.
This common ancestor, the original for which all the game's elements are tailor made, almost always is the superior version of a game, in comparision to which all ports most definitely pale in most if not all categories.

If Shadow of the Beast has better music on Amiga than on Genesis, it's not necessarily the fault of the Genesis sound hardware. Instead, the reason would be that the game was made for Amiga, and then ported to Genesis. The game's music, meant to be played on 4 PCM channels controlled by the Amiga's 68k had to be adapted to a sound engine using the Z80/YM2612/SN76489/DAC combo.
GDRI's list of Mega Drive / Genesis sound engines (http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index.php/Mega_Drive/Genesis_Sound_Engine_List) tells us that Shadow of the Beast uses an early version of the Sound Images engine, an engine at least as terrible as GEMS and used in games like Double Dragon, while later versions would end up being used in Rock 'n Roll Racing, Double Dragon 3: The Rosetta Stone*, Cutthroat Island, Family Feud, and some of the later Spider-Man games. None of these games are exactly known for their awesome sound quality on Genesis, and for a good reason I might add.

Again, if you provide people with PlayStation 3 hardware but they prefer to use it for a PS1 game, you can't blame the hardware.

*Double Dragon 2: The Revenge was developed by Palsoft (Undead Line, High School Soccer MD starring Kunio-Kun) and actually has pretty awesome music.

TmEE

07-22-2009, 08:01 PM

I was listening to some of TmEE's stuff (demo tracks in his MD sound engine) and it definitely sounds like there's PSG on independent channels (even if hard left or hard right). His Guiles Theme remix sounds like it might have it at one point (but that could be FM), but PCM+Square Wave "hapy thing that sounds good" track definitely seems to have it.

That is a FM instrument that soounds like 50% square waves that's panning around :P

gamevet

07-22-2009, 08:57 PM

If Shadow of the Beast has better music on Amiga than on Genesis, it's not necessarily the fault of the Genesis sound hardware. Instead, the reason would be that the game was made for Amiga, and then ported to Genesis. The game's music, meant to be played on 4 PCM channels controlled by the Amiga's 68k had to be adapted to a sound engine using the Z80/YM2612/SN76489/DAC combo.
GDRI's list of Mega Drive / Genesis sound engines (http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index.php/Mega_Drive/Genesis_Sound_Engine_List) tells us that Shadow of the Beast uses an early version of the Sound Images engine, an engine at least as terrible as GEMS and used in games like Double Dragon, while later versions would end up being used in Rock 'n Roll Racing, Double Dragon 3: The Rosetta Stone*, Cutthroat Island, Family Feud, and some of the later Spider-Man games. None of these games are exactly known for their awesome sound quality on Genesis, and for a good reason I might add.

I provided the links, so Black Tiger could hear them again. The SNES version is kind of odd though, since its soundtrack is totally unique.

Again, if you provide people with PlayStation 3 hardware but they prefer to use it for a PS1 game, you can't blame the hardware.

*Double Dragon 2: The Revenge was developed by PAL-Soft and actually has pretty awesome music.

I provided compilation tracks for both systems, so people can have a better comparison of the best available for them. Like I said, the Genesis had some amazing music, but it had major issues because a lot of programmers couldn't or didn't have the necessary tools to make the most use of the hardware, and over 60% of the games' sound sucked because of it.

It just blows my mind that anyone would think the Genesis soundchip was much better than that of an Amiga, where music and sound were rarely an issue. The Amiga could more than likely replicate (at least 90% sound quality) any soundtrack available on the Genesis, while I don't believe the Genesis could cover more than half of the music (or voice samples) possible on an Amiga.

Christuserloeser

07-22-2009, 09:15 PM

I think of the Amiga (and SNES) as capable of playing sounds, while the Mega Drive could create sounds itself. - It's a lot like comparing a CD player with a piano.

I do agree with your statement that more than 60% of the games' music sucked though.

gamevet

07-22-2009, 10:35 PM

I think of the Amiga (and SNES) as capable of playing sounds, while the Mega Drive could create sounds itself. - It's a lot like comparing a CD player with a piano.

The Amiga can create sounds though. It's not just sample files being replayed. The Genesis was the piano, but the Amiga was more like a synthesiser (yes, the Genesis was based around a synth chip) and could play notes of more variable sound.

Here is an example of the Amiga making music (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePmWp1e9RM0) using AHX. The range of sounds available on the chip were just a keystroke away. It's like choosing a trumpet sound on a casio keyboard, you hit a note and it's a replicated version of the real instrument. The Genesis had a Yamaha keyboard chip inside of it, yet I don't know why the sounds of real instruments were hardly ever heard on the system.

Here's an example of a user controlling the Genesis soundchip via MIDI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtKRUM9IUM4)

I do agree with your statement that more than 60% of the games' music sucked though.

And a lot of that had to do with the very limited sound table they had to work with.

tomaitheous

07-23-2009, 01:15 AM

The Amiga can create sounds though. It's not just sample files being replayed.

Yeah, at the expensive of CPU resource. Likewise, the SID can create some really impressive music at the cost of 50% or more of cpu resource.

I *think* the context of this discussion is relative to real world performance and usage. It's unfair to compare something that it's main purpose is just for audio playback VS a real world in game engine. Give the Genesis almost full CPU resource and you can create some really impressive sound. Actually, the rule applies to almost any system.

This format is a synth-tracker. There are no samples in the module file, rather descriptions of how to synthesize the required sound. This results in very small audio files (AHX modules are typically 1k-4k in size), and a very characteristic sound. AHX is designed to sound as much like a Commodore 64 as possible.

The Genesis had a Yamaha keyboard chip inside of it, yet I don't know why the sounds of real instruments were hardly ever heard on the system.

Yeah, but Yamaha had a range of chips - including PSG chips. And the YM2612 wasn't directly used in any keyboards that I know of (chips close to it, sure - but yamaha had a huge range of keyboards from really cheap ones to expensive models). Then there's the fact that musicians tend to run keyboards through FX patches and such.

A lot of SNES games seem to sound like they use stock instruments. Seems to be the majority of titles. But there are some great sounding games; Zelda LTTP, Super Adventure Island (man, Yuzo really made the snes sound awesome), Super EDF, and Spiderman Arcade's Revenge (Follin brothers were incredible and carried that tradition over to the SNES for this game).

Just a side note; the SNES too can generate non sample-based synth sounds too. The SPC700, while only 1mhz, was pretty damn fast (a 65x on steroids and with MUL/DIV instructions). Someone has written a SID emulator for the SPC700. Memblers wrote a full NES sound emulator with the sound processor as well. Chrono Trigger creates custom sounds by dynamically generating ADPCM samples on the fly and let it clip passed the max level while tweaking with the filters, etc. The SPC700 is my next project, to create cool synths like that (currently still doing PCE and Genesis dev).

gamevet

07-23-2009, 02:50 AM

Yeah, at the expensive of CPU resource. Likewise, the SID can create some really impressive music at the cost of 50% or more of cpu resource.

I *think* the context of this discussion is relative to real world performance and usage. It's unfair to compare something that it's main purpose is just for audio playback VS a real world in game engine. Give the Genesis almost full CPU resource and you can create some really impressive sound. Actually, the rule applies to almost any system.

Nearly half the Amiga games used onboard sound and music generated by the computer, so that theory doesn't float. Just because the Amiga does sample sounds so well, doesn't mean that the system itself can't generate (in game) equally as impressive stuff.

Still, the Amiga was designed with the idea of using sampled sounds, much like what most hardware today uses. The Genesis, on the other hand, is absolutely horrible with sound samples, thus the need to mostly rely on hardware created sounds.

Here are a few examples of the Amiga using its onboard hardware to create the music.

Turrican 2 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4rvQzQL6kSo&feature=related)

L.E.D. Storm (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80dFwuDe3TA)

Bubble Bobble (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pNfQBaS03M0&feature=related)

New Zealand Story (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1rEJCa_Ztz4&feature=related)

Rainbow Islands (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UDVmKANSYc&feature=related)

Bionic Commando (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yib3prfLe4c)

Parasol Stars (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-AVu2NnvEC8&feature=related)

Atomic Robo-Kid (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7uR2MxE95K0&feature=related)

R-Type (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L5071LIgVgU&feature=related)

Golden Axe (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=401n2CDGY1E)

Metal Law (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gfGYoE2cE_Q&feature=related)

Super Hang-On (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9mRRQIwQtsY&feature=related)

The Chaos Engine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iHH6IrNrYDY&feature=related)

A lot of SNES games seem to sound like they use stock instruments. Seems to be the majority of titles. But there are some great sounding games; Zelda LTTP, Super Adventure Island (man, Yuzo really made the snes sound awesome), Super EDF, and Spiderman Arcade's Revenge (Follin brothers were incredible and carried that tradition over to the SNES for this game).

Just a side note; the SNES too can generate non sample-based synth sounds too. The SPC700, while only 1mhz, was pretty damn fast (a 65x on steroids and with MUL/DIV instructions). Someone has written a SID emulator for the SPC700. Memblers wrote a full NES sound emulator with the sound processor as well. Chrono Trigger creates custom sounds by dynamically generating ADPCM samples on the fly and let it clip passed the max level while tweaking with the filters, etc. The SPC700 is my next project, to create cool synths like that (currently still doing PCE and Genesis dev).

I've never doubted the ability of the soundchip inside the SNES. I'd put it on par with the Amiga, though the Amiga seems to have richer sampled sounds.

kool kitty89

07-23-2009, 03:13 AM

That is a FM instrument that soounds like 50% square waves that's panning around :P

In both cases? I thought Guiles theme was probably all FM, but "PCM and Square waves" "Happy thing that sounds good" uses FM as well?

Nearly half the Amiga games used onboard sound and music generated by the computer, so that theory doesn't float. Just because the Amiga does sample sounds so well, doesn't mean that the system itself can't generate equally as impressive stuff.

What makes you think those aren't samples sounds??? (plenty of the SNES doing likewise as well) And tomaitheus already mentioned that the SID-like music was sampled as well. (same for FM syth sounding stuff, sampled)
Not that there's anything wrong with that, though you're loosing some quality compared to directly generated sounds. (of course it's flexible as well, even for psudo FM synth for example, you could sample sounds from an FM synthesizer with different/better capabilities than what the Genesis has onboard)

Still, the Amiga was designed with the idea of using sampled sounds, much like what most hardware today uses. The Genesis, on the other hand, is absolutely horrible with sound samples, thus the need to rely on hardware created sounds.

The Genesis has got the single, bare 8-bit DAC to work with, everything has to be done in software (for which the Genny has the dedicated Z80, though you could have the 68k doing stuff too). THe quality of sample playback is dependent on the quality of code written to handel it as well as the quality of any compression used.

gamevet

07-23-2009, 04:36 AM

What makes you think those aren't samples sounds??? (plenty of the SNES doing likewise as well) And tomaitheus already mentioned that the SID-like music was sampled as well. (same for FM syth sounding stuff, sampled)

Because I know what the Amiga generated sound sounds like. Just like if you play any Genesis tune and I'd know that it was a Genny title. It's obvious that it's not sampled sound in Turrican 2, because you can hear a slight slowdown of the music at one point in the first level. The NES had music slowdown all of the time, because of the graphics taxing the CPU. Listen to the Amiga version of Golden Axe and then the arcade version. The music may have the same tracks, but the Amiga has a defineative sound, much different than if they were to sample the soundtrack of the arcade game.

Just because the system borrowed CPU cycles when doing the sound with the hardware, doesn't mean that game developers were shy about doing it. The SNES had half the CPU power of the Amiga 500 anyways and the Amiga also had a coprocessor for handling sprite information.

Not that there's anything wrong with that, though you're loosing some quality compared to directly generated sounds. (of course it's flexible as well, even for psudo FM synth for example, you could sample sounds from an FM synthesizer with different/better capabilities than what the Genesis has onboard)

Honestly, when the Amiga is doing sampled soundtracks, it's sounds just as good (barring the limited sound channels) as anything I've heard on the Sega CD. The Amiga does an outstanding job with its own onboard sound, but when it comes to sampled soundtracks, the system was the best of the 16-bit era.

Christuserloeser

07-23-2009, 09:04 AM

I don't think bad of the Amiga, but I really do prefer the MD/G's sound.

Because I know what the Amiga generated sound sounds like.

Some of the tracks you linked to were composed by David Whittaker (i.e. Golden Axe), and his Wikipedia article mentioned that his tracks were recognizable because he used the same intrument samples for most his compositions (except Shadow of the Beast obviously).

The Genesis, on the other hand, is absolutely horrible with sound samples, thus the need to mostly rely on hardware created sounds.

Well, it sounds horrible in most cases, but I'd say it's more an issue of programming and space issues than anything else.

There's even a mod player for Genesis: http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=470

The Genesis had a Yamaha keyboard chip inside of it, yet I don't know why the sounds of real instruments were hardly ever heard on the system.

The Genesis uses FM synthesis to generate sounds (which could be used as samples), but it isn't a sampler (like Amiga or SNES).

Here's what you could call a "Genesis keyboard": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_DX7

_7Qrn-6JyGU

dnMVgwOAOUE

0pLQxvTrRdg

drazBABpyCw

4WCPLZyk3XA

gamevet

07-23-2009, 07:05 PM

I don't think bad of the Amiga, but I really do prefer the MD/G's sound.

Some of the tracks you linked to were composed by David Whittaker (i.e. Golden Axe), and his Wikipedia article mentioned that his tracks were recognizable because he used the same intrument samples for most his compositions (except Shadow of the Beast obviously).

Well those sneaky bastards. A lot of those tunes kept a somewhat SID like sound and you'd think they weren't sampled sound. I'd still guess that Bubble Bobble was PCM (even though Whittaker worked on it) because of the date and sound.

I do know that more than 90% of the games before 1987 were onboard sound, since they were ports of Atari ST and PC games, and the first legit sound sample program for the Amiga didn't come out until 1987.

These titles are defineatly created with the onboard hardware. They were very early titles for the hardware and a couple were direct ports of the Atari ST version. They really aren't that impressive, but neither was most of the early software for the Amiga since they were mostly rushed ports.

Defender of the Crown (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cvW6okgy4wA)

Archon II Adept (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U5lzCbG_Leg)

Star Glider (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCc5psSVazI)

Kings Quest II (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5LlQW117nk&feature=related)

Leisure Suite Larry (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ESMR-mO8BVM&feature=related)

World Tour Golf (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5EED-q-YNw)

The Genesis uses FM synthesis to generate sounds (which could be used as samples), but it isn't a sampler (like Amiga or SNES).

I pretty much said the same thing.

Here's what you could call a "Genesis keyboard": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamaha_DX7

Yep, that's defineatly it. Am I the only person that notices the carrier tone that's present with the FM sound? It's what I call the humming noise and sometimes it's still playing after the note or sound has stopped. Super Thunderblade was really horrible about that.

TmEE

07-23-2009, 07:30 PM

these noises are called quantization noises and they're caused by the low bit output and instrument dynamics... real YM2612 is having a 9bit output.... MD2 ASIC has more bits, and muuuuuch less of these noises.

kool kitty89

07-23-2009, 08:57 PM

There's even a mod player for Genesis: http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=470

Also an example of this:
yRXlrYyFxSg

Just a side note; the SNES too can generate non sample-based synth sounds too. The SPC700, while only 1mhz, was pretty damn fast (a 65x on steroids and with MUL/DIV instructions). Someone has written a SID emulator for the SPC700. Memblers wrote a full NES sound emulator with the sound processor as well. Chrono Trigger creates custom sounds by dynamically generating ADPCM samples on the fly and let it clip passed the max level while tweaking with the filters, etc. The SPC700 is my next project, to create cool synths like that (currently still doing PCE and Genesis dev).

I though the SNES's S-SMP/SPC700 ran at 2.048 MHz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_S-SMP
Doesn't the SNES's sound system also include a DSP working in conjunction with the SPC700?

tomaitheous

07-23-2009, 09:04 PM

Just because the system borrowed CPU cycles when doing the sound with the hardware, doesn't mean that game developers were shy about doing it.

That's true and they could've. But... there are practical reasons why you *wouldn't* do a full software synth in a game engine on the Amiga (7mhz cpu). 1) The Amiga is already doing additional tricks in software that have over head (dynamic sprite table re-allocation to get more sprites on screen/per scanline, additional tricks for multilayered BG parts - it's not as simple as you think, etc). Not to mention the actually map, collision, and other game logic. Writing a all soft synth isn't exactly lite cpu work, nor is the effort to write one (be it FM/PM based or digital filter based to make SID like sounds). 2) Sampling "instrument" sounds from a SID, FM, AM, Casio, etc device is dead easy and takes less than 0.1% cpu resource to issue a frequency playback command to Paula. I'm not sure if you how sampler synthesis works, but it's more than just simply "playing a sample". You have pitch control just like FM, AM, and PSG - to force a sample into a note pitch and octave range. You have looping points for creating on the fly *long* sounds (key hold) to give it that more "synthy" sound. You have tremolo, arpeggio, vibrato, etc effects on that "instrument" too. Hell, you even have volume/pitch/fx envelopes like FM. So replicating other system sounds isn't hard, is barely taxing on the CPU VS writing an all software synth engine and taxing the CPU all in the name for getting finer sound simulation of the system you're targeting.

Logic dictates that software developers are going with choice #2. AHX (which was THX previously) is an all software synth system for the Amiga, but like I said - it's for music playback/listening rather than ingame.

The SNES had half the CPU power of the Amiga 500 anyways and the Amiga also had a coprocessor for handling sprite information.

But the SNES has a dedicated CPU for audio. The SNES doesn't need a co-processor (if you can really call "copper" a co-processor) for sprite handling because it has a robust video display processing with a powerful sprite hardware setup.

Honestly, when the Amiga is doing sampled soundtracks, it's sounds just as good (barring the limited sound channels) as anything I've heard on the Sega CD. The Amiga does an outstanding job with its own onboard sound

I agree. Back in the day, you had to be retarded to think the Genesis sound could match the Amiga's, let alone even close. Amiga sound was just impressive (and PC s3m's). I remember thinking Genesis had poor sound after getting a PC because it sounded similar to outdated Adlib stuff (which sounded pretty generic back then). I also stopped liking PCE chip music because of the lack of bass and often sharp NES like instrument sounds. It was either CD sound tracks or mod-ish stuff. Nowadays, that the times are over and there isn't stupid influences around anymore, I looove the Genesis (especially the games I grew up with) and PCE sound. It's game music, like some one once said to me. I like the Amiga sound too, but it's just not as bad ass anymore like it once was to my ears.

Well those sneaky bastards. A lot of those tunes kept a somewhat SID like sound and you'd think they weren't sampled sound. I'd still guess that Bubble Bobble was PCM (even though Whittaker worked on it) because of the date and sound.

The port of BC-kid on the Amiga had crappy music compared to the original. Besides missing 2 sound channels, you can easily replicate PCE music on the Amiga. Even the 12bit pitch number is identical between the two (uses the same formula too). You just use PCE sized samples and you're good to go. Reserve 1 channel for a pre-recorded loop-beat tracks and the number channels doesn't become as much of an issue. They should have done just this for the port :(

There's even a mod player for Genesis: http://gendev.spritesmind.net/forum/viewtopic.php?t=470

The player uses a ton of CPU resource (IIRC) and isn't viable for anything but a title screen and such. Funny, I don't remember seeing Hardwareman mentioning that it doesn't do pitch. If that's true, then it's not really a MOD player/sample-based synth, but just a glorified sample player. I might do a MOD player for the Genesis sometime ;)

I though the SNES's S-SMP/SPC700 ran at 2.048 MHz. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nintendo_S-SMP
Doesn't the SNES's sound system also include a DSP working in conjunction with the SPC700?

Hmm. It's possible it's 2mhz. I've always seen it as 1mhz (SFX manual, iirc). But yeah, the DSP *is* the actual audio device. The processor is there for making customer music/sound drivers - exactly like the z80 on the Genesis. Only in the SNES' case, you can't access the DSP regs directly like the 68k can for the PSG/2612 on the Genesis. On the first generation SNES models, you can actually remove the whole audio unit (it's in a little box) and run it without the SNES system. Perfect for making a real life SPC player :D

A related note. The PSX has the exact same DSP as the SNES, but without the SPC700 cpu and it has 24 channels instead of 8. There's actually a few features removed in the PSX version too.