Just wondering

[Sickboy_uk]

I have just played VR Racing and i cant believe the size of the cartridge and how different it is to most of the other Megadrive games. I was just wondering how many other cartridges are smiler to the ones that are used for VR Racing.

Doe's anyone know the reason for these?

[TmEE]

the cartridge is full of air mostly... if you cut its PCB few mm, it will fit into regular MD cart...

its probably about "getting more for your money"

[ThugsRook]

I have just played VR Racing and i cant believe the size of the cartridge and how different it is to most of the other Megadrive games. I was just wondering how many other cartridges are smiler to the ones that are used for VR Racing.

Doe's anyone know the reason for these?
it has an extra SVP co-processor in the cartridge. its the only game that has one. (AFAIK)

[kool kitty89]

EA had similarly large carts (also somewhat narrower) and I think some other 3rd parties like Accolade did too, like with Zero Tolerance. (I think Action 52 might be as well) Those are even more full of empty space than Virta Racing.

Here's F-22 Interceptor (EA)
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/0/5/1/8/3/3/webimg/262317391_tp.jpg

[Baloo]

EA had similarly large carts (also somewhat narrower) and I think some other 3rd parties like Accolade did too, like with Zero Tolerance. (I think Action 52 might be as well) Those are even more full of empty space than Virta Racing.

Here's F-22 Interceptor (EA)
http://img.auctiva.com/imgdata/1/0/5/1/8/3/3/webimg/262317391_tp.jpg

Those are just shaped differently because they weren't licensed by Sega, at least the early EA and all Accolade ones. EA just stuck to the shape after they got licensing. It's not bigger due to hardware reasons.

[chessage]

Those are just shaped differently because they weren't licensed by Sega, at least the early EA and all Accolade ones. EA just stuck to the shape after they got licensing. It's not bigger due to hardware reasons.

What are you talking about! All EA games on the MD/G are licensed. Sega just let EA produce their own cartridge casing. They let several companies make their own. Examples include Konami and Acclaim. However, you may be right about Accolade since Sega took them to court about licensing issues.

[Baloo]

What are you talking about! All EA games on the MD/G are licensed. Sega just let EA produce their own cartridge casing. They let several companies make their own. Examples include Konami and Acclaim. However, you may be right about Accolade since Sega took them to court about licensing issues.

Nope, as I said VERY early EA games weren't licensed.

[chessage]

Nope, as I said VERY early EA games weren't licensed.

Oh really? Then why do all of EA's 1990 MD/G games say "Licensed by Sega Enterprises, Ltd." right on the box! Here is an example (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/will-harveys-zany-golf/cover-art/gameCoverId,79647/).

[Rusty Venture]

Doe's anyone know the reason for these?

TmEE is wrong.

That isn't air, it is extra "awesome" inserted by Sega. Cracking open your cart releases that contained awesome and makes VR Racing run 3-4FPS slower.

[Cornugon]

Oh really? Then why do all of EA's 1990 MD/G games say "Licensed by Sega Enterprises, Ltd." right on the box! Here is an example (http://www.mobygames.com/game/genesis/will-harveys-zany-golf/cover-art/gameCoverId,79647/).

Try Budokan ;)

[Joe Redifer]

Populous, Budokan and Zany Golf were not licensed upon their initial release. However EA did quickly get a license so I am sure that there are many copies of those games that bear the SEGA seal of approval. They still won't work with a TMSS Genesis without a Game Genie, though.

[chessage]

Populous, Budokan and Zany Golf were not licensed upon their initial release. However EA did quickly get a license so I am sure that there are many copies of those games that bear the SEGA seal of approval.

I won't believe you until I see some EA box art that doesn't have the seal of approval or "Licensed by Sega Enterprises, Ltd." on it.

The story I heard is a bit different. From what I understand, EA had gotten a license from Sega, but Sega was short handed on devkits, so EA had to borrow one from another company and reverse engineer it to make their own for the time being. Their custom made devkit worked well, but the games were missing TMSS-related code, so that's why they won't work on post-TMSS consoles without a Game Genie.

[Phantar]

Have a look at this article:

http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=9&title=Genesis%20Firsts:%20Reverse%20Engineering

It states that at least Popoulous and Budokan were released as unlincensed games first and only later re-issued with a license.

Also, take this quote from Trip Hawkins, founder of Electronic Arts, taken from his Interview with Sega-16 (http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=278&title=Interview:%20Trip%20Hawkins), publishe August 18 2006:


Sega-16: Some publishers complained about Sega attempting to emulate the strict licensing policies Nintendo had. Was this ever the case with EA?

Trip Hawkins: Sega's initial "standard license agreement" was indeed a Nintendo clone. EA skirted this because we reverse engineered the Genesis and therefore did not technically need a license agreement to bring games to market. This gave me a lot of leverage in negotiating a reasonable license, which I did in 1990.

also, here:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/budokan-the-martial-spirit/cover-art/gameCoverId,117616/
http://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/large/1217418680-00.jpg

This Budokan-cartridge (image courtesy of mobygames) is clearly lacking the "Licensed by Sega Enterprises Ltd."-imprint

[Baloo]

http://www.mobygames.com/game/budokan-the-martial-spirit/cover-art/gameCoverId,817/

That's the box art.


I won't believe you until I see some EA box art that doesn't have the seal of approval or "Licensed by Sega Enterprises, Ltd." on it.

The story I heard is a bit different. From what I understand, EA had gotten a license from Sega, but Sega was short handed on devkits, so EA had to borrow one from another company and reverse engineer it to make their own for the time being. Their custom made devkit worked well, but the games were missing TMSS-related code, so that's why they won't work on post-TMSS consoles without a Game Genie.

That's a total bullshit story. EA made games for the Genesis long before TmSS came around. TmSS wasn't created until Sega had found out Accolade was using reverse engineering.

[tomaitheous]

That's a total bullshit story. EA made games for the Genesis long before TmSS came around. TmSS wasn't created until Sega had found out Accolade was using reverse engineering.

Yeah, total bullshit story. Chessage: where did you here this?

[chessage]

Have a look at this article:

http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page.php?id=9&title=Genesis%20Firsts:%20Reverse%20Engineering

It states that at least Popoulous and Budokan were released as unlincensed games first and only later re-issued with a license.

Actually, that isn't quite true:


Before releasing the unlicensed pair, Hawkins felt he should at least give Sega a chance to offer him a license. If he didn't like the terms, he could always release his games independently. He approached them in June of 1990 and laid out his plan: offer Electronic Arts a fair licensing deal or it would go ahead and release its games anyway. Sega management was initially enraged that Hawkins had reverse engineered the Genesis, and threatened to sue, but eventually it backed off, figuring that it would be better to have Electronic Arts as an ally rather than an enemy. This was a smart move, as third part support would be crucial to the long-term success of the Genesis. Sega offered Hawkins a sweet deal: Electronic Arts could release as many titles as it wanted and approve them itself, and it had control over manufacturing. Additionally, the licensing rates were lower than what Nintendo was offering.

EA acquired a license before releasing any games and Sega let them use their own methods of production, so rather than wait and adjust their reverse-engineered games on an official Sega devkit, they just released them right away when they received licensing from Sega. Their first three titles were developed on their custom made devkit christened the "Sega Genesis Probe (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/08/the-story-of-ea-and-the-pirate-genesis-development-kit.ars)". It probably didn't supply the proper header information later checked by Sega's Trademark Security System, which would explain why the games don't work on TMSS consoles. Games made after Zany Golf were programmed using the official Sega devkit which supplies the proper header information that allows games to pass TMSS verification. So, all EA titles are licensed, but the first three weren't programmed with official hardware.


also, here:
http://www.mobygames.com/game/budokan-the-martial-spirit/cover-art/gameCoverId,117616/
http://www.mobygames.com/images/covers/large/1217418680-00.jpg

This Budokan-cartridge (image courtesy of mobygames) is clearly lacking the "Licensed by Sega Enterprises Ltd."-imprint

See that picture of "F-22 Interceptor" posted by Kool Kitty89? It doesn't say "Licensed by Sega Enterprises, Ltd." either and it's a fully licensed game. EA didn't always write that on their cartridge labels, but you'll notice that every copy of "Budokan: The Martial Spirit", "Populous", and "Zany Golf" will have the license written right on the box cover. If you can find a box that doesn't, I'd be surprised.


http://www.mobygames.com/game/budoka...meCoverId,817/

That's the box art.

... For the MS-DOS version, not the Mega Drive/Genesis.

[Joe Redifer]

I will concede this one. You are right!

[tomaitheous]

EA acquired a license before releasing any games and Sega let them use their own methods of production, so rather than wait and adjust their reverse-engineered games on an official Sega devkit, they just released them right away when they received licensing from Sega. Their first three titles were developed on their custom made devkit christened the "Sega Genesis Probe (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/08/the-story-of-ea-and-the-pirate-genesis-development-kit.ars)". It probably didn't supply the proper header information later checked by Sega's Trademark Security System, which would explain why the games don't work on TMSS consoles. Games made after Zany Golf were programmed using the official Sega devkit which supplies the proper header information that allows games to pass TMSS verification. So, all EA titles are licensed, but the first three weren't programmed with official hardware.


That still doesn't explain the header issue though. If they lacked a development hardware kit, but were already licensed - they would at least have access to the header layout from the software manuals. If they were licensed from start, but lacked the hardware dev kit, they still would have provided correct header format before going into mass rom production. Unless you expect me to believe EA was that incompetent.

[Joe Redifer]

I imagine physical production of the ROMs had already begun on at least Populous and Budokan and it was too late to fix header issues. That would have delayed the games quite a bit, believe it or not. By the time the games actually shipped, EA likely had the license. The games worked on all available Genesises, so there was no reason to delay further.

[chessage]

I imagine physical production of the ROMs had already begun on at least Populous and Budokan and it was too late to fix header issues. That would have delayed the games quite a bit, believe it or not. By the time the games actually shipped, EA likely had the license. The games worked on all available Genesises, so there was no reason to delay further.

Correct, TMSS wasn't around at the time, so EA had no reason to modify the header code since their reverse-engineered games could already function correctly on every machine produced through that point. All EA had to do was adjust the box covers for their games to include the Sega license and seal of approval, so consumers would be more confident in purchasing their product.

I suspect EA received complaints once TMSS began use. Did they make corrected reprints of any of their first three games and offer to replace non-functioning cartridges?

[tomaitheous]

Correct, TMSS wasn't around at the time, so EA had no reason to modify the header code since their reverse-engineered games could already function correctly on every machine produced through that point.

But every other licensed company had *no* problem producing a correct header and yet EA was somehow incompetent or ignorant of this? Maybe you don't know, but developers knew from past experiences, and warned ahead of time, to very well follow header and rules to the "T" for current and future compatibility. Anything can change between revisions and make the game incompatible with future revisions of hardware - which is exactly what happened. Not only that, but Sega being the licenser is supposed to verify all header/protection systems before they themselves produce the roms/boards. Which leads me to believe the licenser didn't produce these rom boards. I.e. they were developed and produced out of license. If they (EA) obtained a license after the fact and reproduced boxes carrying the license logo, that doesn't change the previous actions.

Sega probably agreed to EA terms about producing their own custom carts because EA themselves already had a production run of carts. Why would EA throw out the money they already spent on cart productions?

[kool kitty89]

Perhaps they started manufacturing their own cartridges, lacking the header, before they became officially licensed. (so there would be no delay with releasing the games one way or another)

[chessage]

But every other licensed company had *no* problem producing a correct header and yet EA was somehow incompetent or ignorant of this?

The games were finished before EA got licensing from Sega, so there was no way EA could have used the correct header without tediously adjusting the programming on completed games that were already able to work on MD/G systems at the time. Still, they weren't published until Sega gave EA licensing.


Not only that, but Sega being the licenser is supposed to verify all header/protection systems before they themselves produce the roms/boards. Which leads me to believe the licenser didn't produce these rom boards. I.e. they were developed and produced out of license.

Didn't you read Sega's licensing agreement with EA:


Sega offered Hawkins a sweet deal: Electronic Arts could release as many titles as it wanted and approve them itself, and it had control over manufacturing. Additionally, the licensing rates were lower than what Nintendo was offering.

Sega let EA completely control all programming and production aspects of their games as part of their licensing agreement. Technically, EA could have continued to use their own reverse-engineered header code if they so desired, and their games still would have been officially licensed by Sega.


If they (EA) obtained a license after the fact and reproduced boxes carrying the license logo, that doesn't change the previous actions.

EA developed the games, began hard copy production, and then acquired licensing from Sega before publishing ANY games on the MD/G. All game boxes will have the Sega license labelled right on the cover.


Sega probably agreed to EA terms about producing their own custom carts because EA themselves already had a production run of carts. Why would EA throw out the money they already spent on cart productions?

As far as I can tell, EA always produced their own carts on the MD/G from day one until the end. Even the games that are in standard cases should have EA PCBs inside them, if not then they are exceptions.


Perhaps they started manufacturing their own cartridges, lacking the header, before they became officially licensed. (so there would be no delay with releasing the games one way or another)

Most EA cart labels don't have the header, just look at the picture you posted of "F-22 Interceptor". It's the box that consumers look at when purchasing a brand new game, which is why all EA MD/G boxes have the license posted right on the cover and not always on the cartridge.

[tomaitheous]

The games were finished before EA got licensing from Sega, so there was no way EA could have used the correct header without tediously adjusting the programming on completed games that were already able to work on MD/G systems at the time. Still, they weren't published until Sega gave EA licensing.

That's incorrect. For one, they had the original source code. It's nothing to re-assemble a project, especially for something small like that. Two, it's a header. There's nothing tedious or difficult about it. The only way you can't change a header or code is if you already did a rom production run. See the logic? Not sure how to make my point any clearer. Your explanation has gaps/wholes in it and other things that don't make sense.



Most EA cart labels don't have the header, just look at the picture you posted of "F-22 Interceptor". It's the box that consumers look at when purchasing a brand new game, which is why all EA MD/G boxes have the license posted right on the cover and not always on the cartridge.

What? I'm talking about the ROM header. It's a small area of memory (rom in this case) reserved for company, licenses, crc, and other info (copy protection in some systems). Why would I care about some labels on the outside of the cart....

[Christuserloeser]

Their first three titles were developed on their custom made devkit christened the "Sega Genesis Probe (http://arstechnica.com/gaming/news/2008/08/the-story-of-ea-and-the-pirate-genesis-development-kit.ars)". [...] Games made after Zany Golf were programmed using the official Sega devkit.

Are you sure about that ? - At the very least the sound engine they used was not part of the standard dev kit (which included GEMS) but a custom one (http://gdri.smspower.org/wiki/index.php/Mega_Drive/Genesis_Sound_Engine_List), several actually.

[KillerBean2]

it has an extra SVP co-processor in the cartridge. its the only game that has one. (AFAIK)

Yes, a 32-bit co-processor. VR is almost like a kid brother to the 32X :)

Sega Virtua Processor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Virtua_Processor)

But like TmEE says, the cartridge is also between 1/4 and 1/3 pure air.

[ThugsRook]

Yes, a 32-bit co-processor. VR is almost like a kid brother to the 32X :)

Sega Virtua Processor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Virtua_Processor)

But like TmEE says, the cartridge is also between 1/4 and 1/3 pure air.
the SVP prolly needs some extra air to keep cool.

if i remember the story corrrectly, VR is what spawned the idea for 32X.

[kool kitty89]

Yes, a 32-bit co-processor. VR is almost like a kid brother to the 32X :)

Sega Virtua Processor (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sega_Virtua_Processor)

But like TmEE says, the cartridge is also between 1/4 and 1/3 pure air.

Nope, it's a 16-bit Samsung DSP, just as the Wiki artical states. ;) See this thread: http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7765 It also came up that the chip might be running off the 13.4 MHz signal on the cartridge port rather than the refrenced 23 MHz. (based on emultion requireing around 10-12 millionctions/sec -MIPS, with instructions being around 1 cycle in the case of the DSP, if so it was probably to allow it to run cooler, the core itsself is rated for 25 MHz iirc)

For more comprehensive info see this: http://notaz.gp2x.de/docs/svpdoc.txt Or one of the other sourses linked at the bottom of the wiki article.

Oddly there pages: http://www.hacking-cult.org/?r/31/102 http://www.hacking-cult.org/?r/31/103 (linked from this wiki sourse: http://www.hacking-cult.org/?r/31 )
lists a 32-bit ALU which seems odd given it wored with 16-bit fixed point arithetic.

[tomaitheous]

lists a 32-bit ALU which seems odd given it wored with 16-bit fixed point arithetic.

Depends on what they mean by 16bit fixed point. Could mean 16bit:16bit which would fit nicely inside a 32bit add/sub operation. Or it could refer to a hardware macro instruction (32bit add/sub on a 16bit ALU) and the 32bit they're referring to is the MUL unit. Strange that the PC reg is only 16bit (not that it needs to be the same size are the ALU, in fact the trend in processors is that it's larger than the ALU.)