How was the Amiga?

[5233]

I never played or knew anything about the Amiga computer until I first got on the internet years ago. However, I know some of its games were ported to the Genesis, so because of that I can respect it, and it does resemble the Genesis in both sound and visuals. Did anyone here ever have one and what did you think of it? It seems to have a devoted fanbase and alot of the games look pretty good, but outside of the Genesis, I have only played a few other games for it through emulation.

[tomaitheous]

Check out cubex55 on youtube for some longplay videos of Amiga games.

[Chilly Willy]

Much of my early commercial work was on the Amiga. When I switched from 8 bit to 16 bit computers, the Amiga 500 was the computer I bought. I've still got that A500 in the closet. It was an awesome computer, with hardware and OS a decade (or more) ahead of the competition. It was just sad that Commodore then didn't maintain that lead, but let the competition overtake them. During the late 80's, there wasn't a better gaming computer out.

[nonner242]

Awesomeness!
Thats Amiga!
I love mine tooo death.
Amiga can blow the Genny outta the water...
I used it for 2D/3D lightwave and music...
Great Games on it also.
Like Shadow of the Beast/Agony...some of the best music ever!
If ya come across a working amiga on the cheap, dont hesitate on picking it up.
I still use my Amiga 1000 to this day for gaming & animation.

[Zebbe]

The Amiga has the most awesome PCM chip ever. The music it can create is timeless.

[jesus.arnold]

I never played or knew anything about the Amiga computer until I first got on the internet years ago. However, I know some of its games were ported to the Genesis, so because of that I can respect it, and it does resemble the Genesis in both sound and visuals. Did anyone here ever have one and what did you think of it? It seems to have a devoted fanbase and alot of the games look pretty good, but outside of the Genesis, I have only played a few other games for it through emulation.The Amiga is pretty much an equal to the Mega Drive and SNES as a 16-bit machine, whilst the MD's strength was in action games and the SNES' with RPG's and the such, the Amiga's strength was with strategy and adventure (Monkey Island style) games, though like the other aforementioned machines it had a healthy amount of games in each genre. The Amiga was massive as a games machine in Europe (over here Computers were the de-facto way of playing video games until around 92' when the Mega Drive took off) and actually came second only to the Mega Drive in the UK with the SNES selling less than half the hardware and not really being much of a player in that generation (In Germany I think it was SNES 1st, Amiga 2nd but I'm not sure).

The Amiga's action games tend to be much less direct than those on the MD and are usually more non-linear and exploratory with puzzle aspects, it's best games are mainly of European origin (though there were still a few good US companies making games) it's sound was usually a bit better than that of the Mega Drive. Also due to the fact that making computer games and releasing them on floppy disks was much less risky the Amiga was home to a lot of weird games with unique concepts.

Some of it's weakest aspects were it's controller as most games were 1 button only (though not all, you could have a maximum of two buttons) which made it difficult to make a good fighting game on the system. It's lack of Japanese backing meant that there weren't really any notable JRPG's made for it either, and it's shmups tended to be a bit generic and didn't stand up too well to those on MD or even SNES (though a couple could hold their own)

[Chilly Willy]

Some of it's weakest aspects were it's controller as most games were 1 button only (though not all, you could have a maximum of two buttons) which made it difficult to make a good fighting game on the system.

Actually, you could have three buttons on the controller, just the same as the mouse. However, while a few three button mice were made (like the Boing! mouse - I have one of those), no three buttons controllers were made. Instead, CBM went to the CD32 controller, with seven buttons read in a completely different manner (serially). Many later games on the Amiga support the CD32 controller giving the user enough buttons to make a difference. Early games usually stuck with one button, but a few two button games were made (like Leander).

[jesus.arnold]

Actually, you could have three buttons on the controller, just the same as the mouse. However, while a few three button mice were made (like the Boing! mouse - I have one of those), no three buttons controllers were made. Instead, CBM went to the CD32 controller, with seven buttons read in a completely different manner (serially). Many later games on the Amiga support the CD32 controller giving the user enough buttons to make a difference. Early games usually stuck with one button, but a few two button games were made (like Leander).Whether or not 3 button controllers were possible or available doesn't change the basic fact that unfortunately 99.9% of Amiga games only used 1 or 2 buttons.

[gamevet]

I still have my Amiga 500 (with 512K expansion module) and I dust it off at least once a year. The Amiga was such an amazing machine for its time and it was almost like having CD games, before they even existed. The music and graphics one could create on an Amiga was mindblowing back in 1987.

[mick_aka]

I still have an Amiga 1200 with a Blizzard 1230 MkIV 68030 50MHz accelerator, 128MB RAM, Subway USB contoller and Indivision Scandoubler as well as all my old camera controll hardware and genlocks, one of the best computers ever made and probably the most widely supported retro platform today in both hardware and software.

www.amigakit.com

[CMA Death Adder]

I wanted an Amiga for years, eventually being handed an Amiga 500 and a shoebox full of game disks by a friend. The 1902 monitor I was given ended up exploding the first time I tried to use it, likely due to the fact that the monitor had been poorly stored in a weak storage unit outside for several years before being given to me.

I put out an ad in a local computer magazine requesting a free monitor, and someone called the next day after the publication of said ad. I drove over an hour into the middle of nowhere to pick it up, which in retrospect was pretty silly, but fun. The monitor, a 1080, worked fine with the Amiga. But by that time, I wasn't very patient about using the computer anymore so I ended up selling it. The monitor is still here, being used as the primary screen for my testing of new Genesis / Mega Drive games.

What little time I did spend with the Amiga 500 was enjoyable. There's a lot of cool games with great graphics and lovely soundtracks. Since it was so popular especially in Europe, its life was long and it ended up seeing many new, original developments as well as a pile of quality ports. Anyone "into" classic gaming should experience the Amiga at least once.

Zaku (http://www.zaku-lynx.com/) was actually developed, in part, using an Amiga 2000HD and Epyx's own authentic Lynx development hardware / software.

[nonner242]

One BUTTON!
What about the Keyboard?
:p

[Chilly Willy]

One BUTTON!
What about the Keyboard?
:p

Yes, many Amiga games used the keyboard to get around the lack of buttons. The keyboard still doesn't help with fighting games. :D

Some games actually came with an overlay you put on top of the keyboard that helped identify the keys to use in the game.

[jesus.arnold]

Yes, many Amiga games used the keyboard to get around the lack of buttons. The keyboard still doesn't help with fighting games. :D.Though the keyboard should've helped with fighting games, I guess lack of keyboard options in most games was just due to short sightedness on the part of developers, why the hell a game like Midnight Resistance didn't use the keyboard with four buttons for moving and four for firing I'll never know, instead of getting an arcade perfect control method the port ended up with one far worse than the one in the Mega Drive port :mad:

EDIT: In fact, what am I talking about? The damn game could've used the mouse and keyboard like Abuse did, move with the arrow keys and aim with the mouse, what an utterly pathetic wasted opportunity, all those Run N' Gun games on Amiga could've been amazing :mad:

[tomaitheous]

EDIT: In fact, what am I talking about? The damn game could've used the mouse and keyboard like Abuse did, move with the arrow keys and aim with the mouse, what an utterly pathetic wasted opportunity, all those Run N' Gun games on Amiga could've been amazing :mad:

See! SEE!? This is why consoles > home computers. Gamepads ;)

Ohhh and not pressing up for jump :p -jajaja!

[Phantar]

Well, I loved my Amiga! Some of the greatest games back then (Lionheart, Turrican 2, MadTV, Monkey Island 1&2, Stunt Car Racer etc.) were on it back then. I still have min, though it currently is dismantled when I started an attempt to create some kind of PC/Amiga hybrid (calles "Project A"; what I managed to create was basically two mainboards in one tower that needed two power supplies and two keyboards connected... which was kind of pointless, so I disnamntled the whole thing again).

As for the controller, well: Both Amiga and the Genesis used the same kind of controller ports... so for some games, I simply used my Genesis controller on the Amiga! Worked like a charm!

Aaah... fun times...

[jesus.arnold]

See! SEE!? This is why consoles > home computers. Gamepads ;)

Ohhh and not pressing up for jump :p -jajaja!Pushing up for jump is fine....unless you already need to press up to fire upwards at which point it starts to cause some problems as you constantly jump into enemies above you ;)

[MN12BIRD]

I have an Amiga 500 but only a few games for it. I picked it up dirt cheap last year and it had lots of extras and mods. But the Amiga 500 was rare as hell here in Canada everyone has DOS based PC's that I remember. So I have never once seen any games for sale for it around here. Eventually I'll grab some off EBAY or something.

[j_factor]

The Amiga was awesome, but it's very difficult to get into nowadays. Games can be pretty hard to find, and I don't trust old floppy disks. You also have to watch out for the distinction between OCS and AGA games. And you'll want to track down an old RGB monitor, as the TV output isn't that great, and a lot of games will be PAL (which isn't a problem with a monitor).

I have a CD32. It sounds amazing on paper -- amazing 2d capabilities (and most of its games were 2d), CD-ROM media, lots of ports of excellent games, a full-featured (though not amazing) controller, and it can be given a keyboard, mouse, and floppy drive for AGA Amiga compatibility. Unfortunately, many of the ports are rather poor. You'll find some games that give you the option of either music or sound effects (but not both), which is just ridiculous considering the hardware. And you'll find a lot of games with silly control problems, due to being unchanged from Amiga versions -- Battletoads is particularly egregious, using only one button, which ruins the game. And the CD32 version of Skeleton Krew only uses two buttons, which is very very awkward for that game, whereas the Genesis version supports the 6-button controller.

These CD32 examples are identical to the problems with their Amiga versions, and the Amiga in general at times. But it certainly wasn't all bad, and the Amiga has some great games of its own that were never on a mainstream console.

[tomaitheous]

I have a CD32. It sounds amazing on paper -- amazing 2d capabilities

Wasn't it just the same as the Amiga though?

[5233]

I've only played Amiga games through emulation. I am tempted to get a real one, but like you I am concerned about the lifespan of floppies and would prefer to just get the games downloaded instead of investing in games on that format as long as they could be played somehow on a real system. Although that's not to say that I wouldn't mind buying legal re-releases for that system if they happened to appear on Virtual Console or whatnot eventually.

[jesus.arnold]

I've only played Amiga games through emulation. I am tempted to get a real one, but like you I am concerned about the lifespan of floppies and would prefer to just get the games downloaded instead of investing in games on that format as long as they could be played somehow on a real system. Although that's not to say that I wouldn't mind buying legal re-releases for that system if they happened to appear on Virtual Console or whatnot eventually.Amiga's are quite difficult to emulate I think and the machine doesn't have massive worldwide popularity so I think Virtual Console support will sadly never happen.

I agree with you guys about the floppies too, I decided a while back after being burned a few times to stop paying out a lot of money for Amiga games on Ebay, I'm just going to buy them cheap in the wild from now on (if I can ever find any)

[Chilly Willy]

Wasn't it just the same as the Amiga though?

The CD32 was an A1200 without the floppy, keyboard, and some ports, but with two big extras: a CDROM and the AKIKO chip. The AKIKO was a chunky to planar converter chip - it allowed you to make easy conversions of games written for "normal" 256 color graphics. So when Amiga versions of games like Doom came out, you usually had options for using plug-in video cards (on Amigas that allowed such cards), "standard" Amiga planar graphics, and AKIKO converted chunky graphics (CD32 only). It wasn't as good as having a PC video card, but was much better than having to convert the chunky to planar without the AKIKO.

I did a routine for the A1200 that did one pas with the CPU, then the next two passes with the BLITTER that was close to the speed you got from AKIKO, but on higher end Amigas, it was just better to use the CPU for converting chunky to planar. Me and a couple other guys competed to see whose c2p code was more efficient/faster.

[tomaitheous]

Akiko? So it's just a chunky to planar converter? How fast is it?

[Chilly Willy]

Akiko? So it's just a chunky to planar converter? How fast is it?

The conversion is the same either way, so it can do chunky to planar or planar to chunky. It's just a single register in the custom chipset: you write 8 LONG (32-bit) values to the register, then read back 8 LONG values. If you write chunky data, the data you read are planar data (each LONG being one bitplane value). If you write planar data, the data you read are chunky data. There are no wait states, so it takes 16 times the amount of time needed to read/write the custom chipset (which is ~14.3 MHz for AGA if I remember correctly). However, that doesn't mean the conversion of the whole screen is that fast - access to chip memory is the limiting factor here. You spend most of your time waiting on the write to chip memory to finish. That is especially true if you're using a mode that has significant DMA contention, like Double-NTSC/PAL or VGA modes, especially high-res modes. You want to be using NTSC or PAL low-res modes for best speed.

[xbrinkx]

The Amiga has the most awesome PCM chip ever. The music it can create is timeless.
Yes it does...I made a Youtube video for it...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EuXVy6qXyuI

[j_factor]

Wasn't it just the same as the Amiga though?

It's the same as the AGA Amigas (plus the Akiko chip), and came out only a year after the introduction of that chipset. Pretty damn good stuff for the time, and it was much cheaper than a 3DO, or even an A1200.

[CMA Death Adder]

I've only played Amiga games through emulation. I am tempted to get a real one, but like you I am concerned about the lifespan of floppies

Many of the cracked games have been patched to install and play directly from a hard drive. The Amiga 'scene' websites could probably tell you a lot more about that, including supplying you with a list of said games, etc. That's a very solid option, should you choose to seriously get into the Amiga, as it would drastically cut down on the number of floppy disks you'd have to rely on.

[Chilly Willy]

Many of the cracked games have been patched to install and play directly from a hard drive. The Amiga 'scene' websites could probably tell you a lot more about that, including supplying you with a list of said games, etc. That's a very solid option, should you choose to seriously get into the Amiga, as it would drastically cut down on the number of floppy disks you'd have to rely on.

http://www.whdload.de/

There you go! Run that stuff off the hard drive. :cool:

[5233]

Thanks! That sounds great. I do not know much about how those old computers worked or were set up, but I'll look into it, as I am eager to try the Amiga!

[gamevet]

http://www.whdload.de/

There you go! Run that stuff off the hard drive. :cool:

How exactly do you use that? I've seen Amiga hard drives advertised in magazines, but I've never seen one available on the internet.

[Chilly Willy]

There are a number of ways to add hard drives to the Amiga, depending on the model. For example, the A500 takes a completely different kind of drive than an A1200 (which just uses a plain 2.5" laptop PATA drive). Drives for older Amigas like the A500 tend to be more expensive because they require extra hardware since the A500 wasn't designed to have a hard drive. There were a number of companies that made IDE ports for the A500, allowing you to connect an IDE drive to it. So if you got an A500 and wanted a hard drive, you'd need something like that as well. The A1200 was designed to take a 2.5" PATA drive internally, so all you need for the A1200 is to get an appropriate drive.

[5233]

Despite perfect emulation being assured, how would getting a real Amiga be any different in regards to the feeling and input as opposed to just using WinUAE or some other program to play the games?

[tomaitheous]

The conversion is the same either way, so it can do chunky to planar or planar to chunky. It's just a single register in the custom chipset: you write 8 LONG (32-bit) values to the register, then read back 8 LONG values. If you write chunky data, the data you read are planar data (each LONG being one bitplane value). If you write planar data, the data you read are chunky data. There are no wait states, so it takes 16 times the amount of time needed to read/write the custom chipset (which is ~14.3 MHz for AGA if I remember correctly). However, that doesn't mean the conversion of the whole screen is that fast - access to chip memory is the limiting factor here. You spend most of your time waiting on the write to chip memory to finish. That is especially true if you're using a mode that has significant DMA contention, like Double-NTSC/PAL or VGA modes, especially high-res modes. You want to be using NTSC or PAL low-res modes for best speed.

Ahh, so 8 planes then. Does the AGA offer anything else besides extended master palette and bitplanes? Can you section off the BG into two layers of 4bit planes on AGA - extension of OCS features (if that's the correct chipset term)?

[jesus.arnold]

Despite perfect emulation being assured, how would getting a real Amiga be any different in regards to the feeling and input as opposed to just using WinUAE or some other program to play the games?From what I've heard the whole hard drive thing is the best way to go, but if you're talking about the difference between emulation and playing on the computer naturally with floppies I'm going to do a 1st and actually recommend that emulation is better than the real thing, Amiga emulation whilst not perfect is, in my opinion good enough not to give you too much of an inferior experience.

Certain games seem to work better on certain Amiga's, and with emulation you can choose which system you want to use in the options, also using an emulator will mean that you avoid having to worry about different regions and such as a very large part of the Amiga's library was designed to be played at 50hz (European standard) on top of this Floppies are notoriously unreliable, and you may find yourself paying out for games that no longer work/only last a short amount of time. Also, Amiga games seem to be fairly difficult to actually get hold of, even from Ebay.

The biggest problem with Amiga emulation is that if you don't have knowledge of the machines then there seems to be a fairly steep learning curve.

[Chilly Willy]

Ahh, so 8 planes then. Does the AGA offer anything else besides extended master palette and bitplanes? Can you section off the BG into two layers of 4bit planes on AGA - extension of OCS features (if that's the correct chipset term)?

Yes, dual-playfield can take advantage of the extra planes so that two 16-color planes are possible. HAM was also extended to HAM8 so that you can modify 6 bits per component instead of 4. All modes are also now possible in all resolutions. EHB is still available, but kinda useless when you have true 64 color mode now; it's just for backwards compatibility.

Another extension in AGA - when quadruple fetch is active, sprites can change from a word wide to 4 words wide (64 pixels wide instead of 16); you set one of the unused bits in the sprite control word to select 16 or 64 wide.

[Cornugon]

I used to have a 30MB HD equipped Amiga 600 back then, with the 1MB Chip Ram upgrade. The problem with it was that some very old games don't run on it (without use of a early kickstart disk) and it didn't have AGA (although it was released as some sort of cheap A1200, because of the similarities like the 2.5" IDE HD, PCMCIA connector, and RF lead)
But I did get have some great experience with it!

Indeed disk loading and swapping sucked, especially since a lot of games weren't harddisk installable on purpose (copy protection schemes). Which isn't a big issue when the game came on 1 disk, but there were games released on 4 or 5 disks (like MK2) which were not installable :/ Also I get the impression not a lot of people actually had a harddisk.
Another problem was that when games that weren't developed for AGA they were just developed for 'regular' 1MB A500's (with 512KB Chip Ram), and didn't take advantage if you had more (chip) mem installed (chip memory is memory directly accessible by the custom chips, making it essentially both graphics and sound memory, so having more of it could sustain more and/or better sound effects/music/sprites/etc.).
Also for some reason a lot of disks weren't reliable so you could be playing and enjoying some game, and the next day it doesn't work since the disk became bad for some reason.

Fortunately there is since a couple of years something called 'Whdload' making it possible to install non-installable games on HD. Also compatibility issues are fixed in the process (so you can now play that old 1987 game on a A1200 or A4000), copy protections (like manual look-ups) removed and even some bugs/inefficiencies fixed (like the Lion King which originally suffers from heavy slowdowns).

Plus games (hd-installed and disk images) are easily downloadable. So best is to have a CD-equipped Amiga or an A600 or A1200 with a CompactFlash adapter to transfer between them and your PC. Disk images can then be transferred onto real disks (although finding DS-DD disks is becoming somewhat more difficult).

Also I believe you can use a 6-button Megadrive/Genesis (or the Competition Pro ones) gamecontroller instead of a 'real' CD32-gamepad, since the D-pad on that one is not so great.


EDIT: I personally believe the A1200 is the model to go for. Although the A500 is MUCH more common, it's (what Chilly Willy said) harder to get a Harddisk for, since you have to go hunting for additional peripherals which aren't as easy to obtain. The A1200 just uses a 2.5" laptop HD (best is to find one with 4GB or less: OS3.0/3.1 limitations). Also OS2.0 or later are a lot better than 1.3 or earlier that came with the A500). Also WHDload (and such) fix compatibility issues when trying to run older games on newer hardware. AND you have AGA support so you can play the best version of Wing Commander next to the Kilrathi Saga PC version there is :p)
And on an A1200 you have a PCMCIA port, which is easy to obtain a CompactFlash adaptor (or alike) for, and not even that expensive!

[kool kitty89]

Are you Sure about Wing Commander? From what I've seen of the A1200/CD32 versions is that the framerate is just horrible (without CPU accelerators that is) and the sound is more or less the same as the SNES port.

And a note on Kilrathi Saga... I'm not sure it's a good idea either, WC1/2 seem to only want to run in 320x200 mode which most newer (LCD) monitors won't support, though the games run fine, even on Vista 32. DOSBox will automatically scale (in software or using your video card depending on your configuration) so that's no issue, but you're stuck with Adlib (inless you set up Roland emulation -real emulation not a crappy soundfront which sucks, and don't try to tell me Paula is better than properly arranged MT-32).

Kilrathi Saga has all those nice wav files for music and sfx... I'm not sure, but the CD re-releases for WC,WC2, or both (collection pack, on one disc iirc) might be the same, not sure though, it might depend on the release. Any from before 1995 would probably just be CD re-releases with all the expansions included, but I think some were re-released along with th elaunch of WCIV which went to Win95 and DOS.

[Cornugon]

Are you Sure about Wing Commander? From what I've seen of the A1200/CD32 versions is that the framerate is just horrible (without CPU accelerators that is) and the sound is more or less the same as the SNES port.You're right about the speed, my advice is to use a 68030 minimum with it. But compared to the SNES, sound and graphics are definately better. But I don't know what they did to the SNES version though, because graphicswise it looks horrible, even the transaction screens, they look like they have 16 colors like the OCS Amiga version, but with a cartoony look in lower resolution.


And a note on Kilrathi Saga... I'm not sure it's a good idea either, WC1/2 seem to only want to run in 320x200 mode which most newer (LCD) monitors won't support, though the games run fine, even on Vista 32. DOSBox will automatically scale (in software or using your video card depending on your configuration) so that's no issue, but you're stuck with Adlib (inless you set up Roland emulation -real emulation not a crappy soundfront which sucks, and don't try to tell me Paula is better than properly arranged MT-32).

Kilrathi Saga has all those nice wav files for music and sfx... I'm not sure, but the CD re-releases for WC,WC2, or both (collection pack, on one disc iirc) might be the same, not sure though, it might depend on the release. Any from before 1995 would probably just be CD re-releases with all the expansions included, but I think some were re-released along with th elaunch of WCIV which went to Win95 and DOS.

Kilrathi saga has indeed those great sound and music enhancements for WC1 through 3, aside that it runs on Win95, that's why I named that compilation as the best (although pretty rare).
The individual (DOS) re-releases of them still have the midi music and (in case of WC1 and 2) not so great sound effects. And back then not much people had an MT32, so Paula was definately better than Adlib.

Also newer videocards don't seem to support resolutions below 640x480 anymore :/

EDIT: If I remember correctly, WCIV was initially a DOS-only release. Kilrathi Saga even had a Win95 patch for WCIV included. The budget re-release of WCIV did have the Win95 version included.

[kool kitty89]

I think the SNES version is stuck with lower res (256x224), but I'm not sure about color, the lower res itsself is an issue, with less detailed transitions and such. I think the game is also done either with psudo scaling (like sprites in Mario Kart and such), or choppy software scaling like in Wolf3D (which is rather impressive considdering the SNES CPU), with the exception of portions done with mode 7. (the launch tube for one, and I think some ships as well, maybe the tigers claw)

One problem with the Dos version of the original WC is it's dependent on processor speed, thus it's impossible to get a really smoothe game, setting cycles higher than a certain point (~3500 in dosbox -that's instructions per millisecond) the game runs too fast. (not an issue with kilrathi saga)


Maybe you're right about the video card thing, I last tried it on my Vista32 laptop with a GeForce 7150 and there was something displayed but it was a mess of pixels crammed into the upper part of the screen. Dosbox works fine when set to native game resultion mode with hardware scaling enabled. (you need to use the aspect correction feature though or 320x200 will display as square pixels not in 4:3)
When I tried that on my old computer nothing displayed with my LCD monitor (CRT was fine), I had to set resolution to 640x480 or higher for it to work) And on that same LCD monitor the exact same thing happened with Kilrathi Saga, just an off dull grayish odd looking screen as it couldn't sync. (completely different from the laptop's problem)

I'm still not sure it's not the monitor though, I'll have to try the VGA out port with a CRT moitor to be sure.
It worked fine that way on my older XP machine (Radeon 9600 SE I think, one of the cut-down 9600 models I'm sure), again not with the LCD monitor.


BTW do you know if any of the DOS re-releases of WC 1/2 supported other midi formats/sound cards? (general midi or Ultrasound for example) I know WC III at least supported General midi. (I've yet to try out my copy of WC IV -definitely the DOS release- but it uses digital audio tracks rather than midi?)


As to Rolland, true, it was expensive and not especially common, but what I meant was for retro stuff now. I really need to set up a MT-32 emulator to work with DOSBox, if for nothing else than Wing Commander, well and Silpheed. (I haven't got much else, from what I've herad of MT-32 clips in X-Wing it's not particularly impressive compared to FM or General midi, though I've only heard the title music -and it wasn't with a sound front)

[Cornugon]

WCIV uses the streaming digital music, like in the Kilrathi Saga and other games like Command&Conquer and Lands of Lore II (for the latter was optional, you could also choose midi).

I have a re-released version of WC2 right here, I'll check what it supports.
Checked: it only supports PC Speaker, Soundblaster, Adlib and Roland MT32 & LAPC-1. No General Midi or MPU-401 or Gravis Ultrasound. As far as I know this was the same for WC1 and WC Academy (from which I have original disks lying around somewhere). WC Armada uses the same or similar engine as Super Wing Commander/WCIII/WCIV and DOES offer better sound support.
I have tested the sound/music capabilities back then with MT-32 emulation through an AWE64 Soundblaster but wasn't really impressed. The music was better than Adlib (but not as 'good' as General Midi or AWE64 Midi) but sound effects were worse.
But as you said before the emulation could be a bit 'off' compared to the real thing :).

I've been comparing screenies of WC for the SNES, and you're right about the resolution. It also looks stretched vertically for some reason. The launch-scene is definately mode-7. For some strange reason by the way with the screenies on mobygames, the Amiga OCS version is unfiltered (so more obvious dithering and pixelling), unlike the SNES, Sega-CD and PC versions.

[kool kitty89]

Using MT-32 "emulation" (approimation, using soundcard's midi) on a sample based midi card tend to be awful, especially with general midi. (including Roland's own general midi cards) I almost always prefer adlib/sb to that. (even for music)

http://ipggi.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/dosbox-sound-emulation/

see these recordings:

http://www.defacto2.net/includes/blog/SQ3MT32_1.mp3 (SB Audigy 2)
http://www.yvan256.net/soundcards/samples/Space_Quest_3_-_Title_-_LAPC-1.mp3 (real Roland Synth, MT-32, MT-100, LAPC-I etc)

[Cornugon]

Using MT-32 "emulation" (approimation, using soundcard's midi) on a sample based midi card tend to be awful, especially with general midi. (including Roland's own general midi cards) I almost always prefer adlib/sb to that. (even for music)

http://ipggi.wordpress.com/2008/04/26/dosbox-sound-emulation/

see these recordings:

http://www.defacto2.net/includes/blog/SQ3MT32_1.mp3 (SB Audigy 2)
http://www.yvan256.net/soundcards/samples/Space_Quest_3_-_Title_-_LAPC-1.mp3 (real Roland Synth, MT-32, MT-100, LAPC-I etc)

Well those last two are totally different! Sounds interesting though, the 'real' stuff :)
Since the Amiga version of Space Quest IV supports an MT32, I'm curious which games also have support for it...

[Tanegashima]

I've always wanted a CD32 for ONE game:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D8bwUP6Y7ug/SiVVjGSLHYI/AAAAAAAABCU/PfxEB1yjQXY/s400/D-Generation.jpg

http://www.abandonware-paradise.org/Gifs/Abandonware/D_generation.png

http://www.uvlist.net/cdn/n/y2009/05/58987.jpg

This always looked like the COOLEST game!

[Psy]

EDIT: I personally believe the A1200 is the model to go for. Although the A500 is MUCH more common, it's (what Chilly Willy said) harder to get a Harddisk for, since you have to go hunting for additional peripherals which aren't as easy to obtain. The A1200 just uses a 2.5" laptop HD (best is to find one with 4GB or less: OS3.0/3.1 limitations). Also OS2.0 or later are a lot better than 1.3 or earlier that came with the A500). Also WHDload (and such) fix compatibility issues when trying to run older games on newer hardware. AND you have AGA support so you can play the best version of Wing Commander next to the Kilrathi Saga PC version there is :p)
And on an A1200 you have a PCMCIA port, which is easy to obtain a CompactFlash adaptor (or alike) for, and not even that expensive!
You can also get a A1200 on the net far easier, allowing you to easily download apps and tools directly onto the A1200's hard drive without downloading it on another machine first and moving it over with a flash card or floppy.

[kool kitty89]

Well those last two are totally different! Sounds interesting though, the 'real' stuff :)
Since the Amiga version of Space Quest IV supports an MT32, I'm curious which games also have support for it...

I think the Atari ST version does as well. (particularly given the built-in midi port) I think a fair amount of games (especially on the ST) supported standard midi devices as well (midi keyboards and such, at least that's what some ST users have mentioned), povided you had a connector. (again, ST had the port out of the box)

[Cornugon]

I've always wanted a CD32 for ONE game:

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_D8bwUP6Y7ug/SiVVjGSLHYI/AAAAAAAABCU/PfxEB1yjQXY/s400/D-Generation.jpg
This always looked like the COOLEST game!

It IS a cool game! Mindscape had indeed some interesting games developed for the Amiga. By the way there is also a normal disk version of this game, but the CD32 version has a somewhat longer intro and CD32-pad support. It's almost the same as the disk versions (sounds familiar, people? ;))


You can also get a A1200 on the net far easier, allowing you to easily download apps and tools directly onto the A1200's hard drive without downloading it on another machine first and moving it over with a flash card or floppy.
That's also true: Lot of options by just going for he A1200!
Also if one might go for a CD-Rom solution they most of the times come with CD32-emulation making most CD32 games playable on a normal A1200 (except for a few like Wing Commander and Skeleton Krew)


I think the Atari ST version does as well. (particularly given the built-in midi port) I think a fair amount of games (especially on the ST) supported standard midi devices as well (midi keyboards and such, at least that's what some ST users have mentioned), povided you had a connector. (again, ST had the port out of the box)
Ofcourse I know of the ST's out of the box midi! I never had one though and never knew anyone who had unfortunately. The only knowledge I have of it are from wiki articles, screenshots and youtube vids. Maybe in the future I will venture deeper in ST-territory if I got some hardware. I believe ST's use 720KB FAT-formatted disks right?

I don't believe Space Quest IV (and Space Quest I Enhanced) was released on an ST, but I'm curious what the STX 3-disk version of Space Quest II is supposed to be.

EDIT: Just watching the Longplay Amiga of SQ3, could it be they used the samples from the MT32 version's music?

[kool kitty89]

Possibly MT-32 samples (or at least approximations of them). They seems to have done that with Monkey Island as well. (though the CD version's CD-DA tracks sound even closer to MT-32, though not like a direct recording)

Edit: The Amiga's SQIII intro music actually sounds a bit poor at points, though it does sound kind of like sampled MT-32 instruments. (just not very well done)
I think I prefer the Adlib/SB version, except on real hardware. (it sounds king of grating on those old cards -very "metal junk", SB PRO/16 is OK, or some other compatibles, I haven't heard it in dosbox or VDM sound though, which I would assume is much clearer)

Monkey Island is, again, a great example though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUNoJXkPVfE (amiga)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3dB0qEcG20 (MT-32 PC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjvD3C_nvBk (and good ol' FM synth)

Oh... and the ST version (onboard soud) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-JiPTlKVSk (still better than a PC speaker though -similar to a Tandy 1000 or PC Jr. though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC42MgqLWp0 heh, PC speaker (I couldn't resist)

[Cornugon]

Possibly MT-32 samples (or at least approximations of them). They seems to have done that with Monkey Island as well. (though the CD version's CD-DA tracks sound even closer to MT-32, though not like a direct recording)

Edit: The Amiga's SQIII intro music actually sounds a bit poor at points, though it does sound kind of like sampled MT-32 instruments. (just not very well done)
I think I prefer the Adlib/SB version, except on real hardware. (it sounds king of grating on those old cards -very "metal junk", SB PRO/16 is OK, or some other compatibles, I haven't heard it in dosbox or VDM sound though, which I would assume is much clearer)

Monkey Island is, again, a great example though:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CUNoJXkPVfE (amiga)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3dB0qEcG20 (MT-32 PC)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WjvD3C_nvBk (and good ol' FM synth)

Oh... and the ST version (onboard soud) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R-JiPTlKVSk (still better than a PC speaker though -similar to a Tandy 1000 or PC Jr. though)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OC42MgqLWp0 heh, PC speaker (I couldn't resist)

Well I didn't know the Atari ST had such a cra...I mean 'low quality' synthesizer! I personally always hated PC Speaker sound, but the ST is not much better in this scenario.
The MT-32 sounds sweet, but you got the wrong version for the Amiga though, here's the real thing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nA8ghBfSmW4
Does sound of better quality than the SQ3 Amiga version, and IMHO better than the Adlib version.
Probably the same thing as SNES music: it sounds as good (or bad) as the sample quality (and the composer, which seems to be Chris Huelsbeck for the Amiga in case of Monkey Island)

[Joe Redifer]

Back when I was young, I always wanted an Amiga. I saw pics of the games in game magazines and I figured it must be pretty bad-ass because it always looked better than the PC. Then the Newtek Video Toaster came out, which used an Amiga. I got the demo tape and was blown away (I think the music on the tape really helped). I was heavily into linear video editing at the time so it just made me want an Amiga even more. I used an Amiga at a school once to do some pixel art. A friend of mine finally got one. He also got the Video Toaster with Lightwave 3D. He went on vacation and let me borrow the whole thing. The Video Toaster wasn't very good. It required an external time base corrector and even with that it didn't provide much I couldn't already do. Lightwave 3D was OK and I used it for a few projects, but the thing was slow as all hell, taking years to render. Some Amiga games had good sound and nice music, but I still prefer the Genesis in this department, especially composition-wise. I also seem to remember that the desktop was INTERLACED!

In the end I ended up never getting an Amiga and losing all interest in it. The best games were on consoles. Sure, the Amiga may have had more colors, but it was easier to insert a cartridge into a Genesis and power it up than to deal with a damn computer (I still feel this way about computer games, though current-gen consoles are starting to become just as ridiculous).

[Cornugon]

Back when I was young, I always wanted an Amiga. I saw pics of the games in game magazines and I figured it must be pretty bad-ass because it always looked better than the PC. Then the Newtek Video Toaster came out, which used an Amiga. I got the demo tape and was blown away (I think the music on the tape really helped). I was heavily into linear video editing at the time so it just made me want an Amiga even more. I used an Amiga at a school once to do some pixel art. A friend of mine finally got one. He also got the Video Toaster with Lightwave 3D. He went on vacation and let me borrow the whole thing. The Video Toaster wasn't very good. It required an external time base corrector and even with that it didn't provide much I couldn't already do. Lightwave 3D was OK and I used it for a few projects, but the thing was slow as all hell, taking years to render. Some Amiga games had good sound and nice music, but I still prefer the Genesis in this department, especially composition-wise. I also seem to remember that the desktop was INTERLACED!

In the end I ended up never getting an Amiga and losing all interest in it. The best games were on consoles. Sure, the Amiga may have had more colors, but it was easier to insert a cartridge into a Genesis and power it up than to deal with a damn computer (I still feel this way about computer games, though current-gen consoles are starting to become just as ridiculous).

I like both Amiga and Megadrive, the Amiga had a share of great exclusives, or games that just played great, just as the Megadrive/Genesis has. Both platforms also had a lot of craptitles ofcourse. But I agree the disk handling was such a drag, Commodore should have made better effort to make Harddisks and CD-Roms more standard, and sooner in the Amiga's lifetime.

The Workbench (the Desktop) uses per default an RGB resolution of 640x256 (or 640x200 in NTSC), but you could easily change it to use an interlaced mode (640x512 or 400 in NTSC). But without a flickerfixer that isn't recommended ofcourse.
As of OS 2.0 it was also possible to used other screenmodes if you had the monitor, like VGA.
Personally I always found the Workbench a lot more user-friendly than Windows 3.11 for instance (and found Windows 95 a big improvement over 3.11).

I've never worked with the Videotoaster, I've only heard positive stuff about it before, but was it really that bad?

[TmEE]

Joe is spoiled by modern ultr@ powerful proffessional Mac video editing software now so everything else is bad for him :P

[Cornugon]

But weren't Mac's in the early 90's just as powerfull as an expanded, toaster-equipped Amiga 3000? They did still use Motorola CPU's then did they?

[Chilly Willy]

But weren't Mac's in the early 90's just as powerfull as an expanded, toaster-equipped Amiga 3000? They did still use Motorola CPU's then did they?

The Toaster's main claim to fame was it was the ONLY video device for any platform that could be used for broadcast TV. While a comparable Mac might be as powerful, it couldn't be used for broadcast TV. Ditto for the PC.

Apple switch to the PowerPC right as the 68060 came out. So up through the 68040, the Mac and Amiga both used the same processors. There were three main Mac emulators for the Amiga at that time, which might have been at least partly why Apple switched CPUs. :D

[jesus.arnold]

If I were to buy one of these laptop harddrive's and fit it to my 1200, how would I go about setting it up? how could I transfer games from my pc to the harddrive? what about the whdload? how do I get that on the harddrive?

Or is the harddrive just used for installing real Amiga games from floppies?

[Cornugon]

If I were to buy one of these laptop harddrive's and fit it to my 1200, how would I go about setting it up? how could I transfer games from my pc to the harddrive? what about the whdload? how do I get that on the harddrive?

Or is the harddrive just used for installing real Amiga games from floppies?

It should be possible to connect the harddrive to your pc first and use it in Winuae, but you would need 3.5" to 2.5" flat cable. I don't know exactly how it works because I never tried it before.
An alternative to a real HD can be a 4GB CompactFlash card, with an appropriate adaptor which connects to the internal IDE port. It offers some advantages over a real harddrive, like no noise, less heat, less fragile, but the disadvantage is (of what I read) that there is a maximum number of writes to the card. You need something like this: http://www.vesalia.de/e_cfide44adapter.htm
But then again, it's even easier to connect to your PC and use in Winuae. And make an image/backup in case it dies out.

For installation on a real Amiga you need a 2.5" flat cable for your HD, and Workbench 3.0/3.1 disks (which should come with the Amiga, but can be bought/downloaded if you look).

Whdload files are basically just patches for games which make them HD-installable (since a lot of games aren't), remove copy protections, fix compatibility issues etc. Normally they only work with original disks (most disk images you can find are of cracked versions), but from most you can find pre-installed versions in a .zip (or .lha) file which you can copy onto the harddisk and unpack.
It is advisable for WHDLoad to have at least an additional 4Meg of expanded memory installed for the Preload option.

Other options of transferring files from PC:
-Using PC 720K formatted floppies, and using 'crossdos' on Amiga
-via a serial cable (tried that but it's a hassle and with newer pc's a lot of data is lost, so I don't recommend it)
-a PCMCIA to CompactFlash (or something alike) adapter connected to the Amiga's PCMCIA
-If you have a CD-Rom drive for your amiga you can burn cd's ofcourse

[Joe Redifer]

I wasn't using a Mac for video at the time. This was way before non-linear editing. The Mac we had was way less powerful than the Amiga.

Also, why would the Amiga (a computer) have PAL and NTSC modes when it is just hooked up to a Commodore RGB monitor? PAL and NTSC are irrelevant! The NTSC resolutions you listed aren't even viable NTSC resolutions.

[jesus.arnold]

Also, why would the Amiga (a computer) have PAL and NTSC modes when it is just hooked up to a Commodore RGB monitor? PAL and NTSC are irrelevant! The NTSC resolutions you listed aren't even viable NTSC resolutions.I don't know much about the Commodore monitors as I've never seen or used one, I attach my Amiga to my television through composite.

[Joe Redifer]

Ah, OK.

[Chilly Willy]

I wasn't using a Mac for video at the time. This was way before non-linear editing. The Mac we had was way less powerful than the Amiga.

Also, why would the Amiga (a computer) have PAL and NTSC modes when it is just hooked up to a Commodore RGB monitor? PAL and NTSC are irrelevant! The NTSC resolutions you listed aren't even viable NTSC resolutions.

The original Amigas (through the A2000) were only NTSC or PAL. Despite being computers, they didn't do VGA or anything similar - just NTSC or PAL. The timing was so close to TV specs, the Amiga was used by many video folk for genlocking CG graphics and fonts over video. I've still got my GENLOCK I used with my A500.

The ECS chipset introduced the ability to use video modes other than NTSC or PAL. You could do VGA modes at that point, and that's when you started to see the use of multi-sync monitors with the Amiga. Before that, people just used regular TVs or multimedia monitors with the Amiga. The original Commodore "RGB Monitors" were just TVs that took an RGB input at NTSC or PAL frequencies. Think of it like a TV with SCART input as well as composite.

[kool kitty89]

Well I didn't know the Atari ST had such a cra...I mean 'low quality' synthesizer! I personally always hated PC Speaker sound, but the ST is not much better in this scenario.

It isn't really a "synthesizer" it's a rather basic sound chip (YM2149, also used for I/O and is a copy of the AY-3-8910), so the same as the Intellivision, MSX, Vectrex, and ZX Spectrum (except early models which just had the beeper). Similar to the Texas Instuments SN76489 of the Master System, Genesis, ColecoVision, etc. (I think it was this latter chip that was used in the PC Jr. and Tandy 1000)
I'm not sure why they didn't even add a Yamaha FM Synthesis chip, even a cut-down one like the YM2413. (Japanese SMS, add-on for Sega Mk. III and for MSX as well)



In the end I ended up never getting an Amiga and losing all interest in it. The best games were on consoles. Sure, the Amiga may have had more colors, but it was easier to insert a cartridge into a Genesis and power it up than to deal with a damn computer (I still feel this way about computer games, though current-gen consoles are starting to become just as ridiculous).

Amiga games were plug and play though, pop in the Disk, and turn it on. (and swap disks later on if it was a multi-disk game)
No installation (a double edged sword though), the main issue was load times. (also the main issue with lack of installation, no nice fast HDD loads, slow floppy loading every time)

[GriskaGyoran]

I had an Amiga (wish I knew which model), but I played Darkseed as soon as I could read and it was awesome when I knew what I was doing. Where the unit itself went was a mystery I have yet to solve.

[Cornugon]

It isn't really a "synthesizer" it's a rather basic sound chip (YM2149, also used for I/O and is a copy of the AY-3-8910), so the same as the Intellivision, MSX, Vectrex, and ZX Spectrum (except early models which just had the beeper). Similar to the Texas Instuments SN76489 of the Master System, Genesis, ColecoVision, etc. (I think it was this latter chip that was used in the PC Jr. and Tandy 1000)
I'm not sure why they didn't even add a Yamaha FM Synthesis chip, even a cut-down one like the YM2413. (Japanese SMS, add-on for Sega Mk. III and for MSX as well)
So basically Monkey Island is a bad example. I read the Atari ST was made from off-the-shelve parts? Indeed a pity they didn't had those FM chips lying there. The ST also has a (1 channel?) PSG right?


Amiga games were plug and play though, pop in the Disk, and turn it on. (and swap disks later on if it was a multi-disk game)
No installation (a double edged sword though), the main issue was load times. (also the main issue with lack of installation, no nice fast HDD loads, slow floppy loading every time)
The disk loading times weren't that bad with very old games. But a game like Shadow of the Beast, which was frustratingly hard, has long load times AND features some disk swapping (and doesn't support a second diskdrive).


I had an Amiga (wish I knew which model), but I played Darkseed as soon as I could read and it was awesome when I knew what I was doing. Where the unit itself went was a mystery I have yet to solve.
Maybe your Amiga went through the mirror and turned up in the parallel dark world :)

[Cornugon]

The NTSC resolutions you listed aren't even viable NTSC resolutions.

Those are the NTSC resolutions an Amiga supports per default, I don't know the reason why it's different than something like 224p. The PAL vertical screen size is also different.
You have to remember though you can increase the used screen size through overscan (which I believe not much other platforms of that time were capable of).

[kool kitty89]

So basically Monkey Island is a bad example. I read the Atari ST was made from off-the-shelve parts? Indeed a pity they didn't had those FM chips lying there. The ST also has a (1 channel?) PSG right?

3-channels (though the set-up is not quite the same as the SMS/Genny PSG, I think it has more features like hardware envelopes) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/YM2149 It generally sounds a lot like SMS tunes though.

ST was mostly off the shelf, yeah, but those FM chips would have been as well. (though i'm not sure the YM2413, specifically, was available when the ST came out) There were definitely earlier ones though, but not as cheap and simple as that one. Of course, you could add an external midi device as mentioned previously (including the MT-32, along with less expensive examples), though I don't know that any module specifically designed for such a purpose was released. (something simpler and cheaper than a professional midi device like the MT-32, or various keyboards and synthesizers)

The sound along with the Amiga blitter were the main advantages over the ST (the colors weren't as big a factor), sprites probably as well. (or did the ST have hardware sprites?)
The STe fixed both more or less (2 DMA sound channels and a blitter), but that came late and didn't get the necessary support. The Falcon really brought things up, probably moreso than the A1200, but it came too late as well. (no longer compared to Commodore, which was struggling, but to the massive growth in PCs with the slack largely picked up by Apple) Of course, Sam had taken things over a while before this, so who knows how things would have gone if Jack had stayed. (instead of giving up on computers and throwing everything at the Jaguar, halfheartedly at that)

[Cornugon]

or did the ST have hardware sprites

I read somewhere the ST had hardware sprites, but only 4 or so. It lacked hardware scroll though.
EDIT: no it didn't have hardware sprites either, so the CPU would make overtime.

But then again in the late eighties the ST did better than the Amiga, mainly because of the price (and the out-of-the-box midi for music making ofcourse) and therefore probably better support from game developers (who developed for the Atari and made an almost 1:1 port to the Amiga, sometimes with somewhat better sound but played worse because the Amiga had a slightly lower clocked M68000).

What was the shifter chip used for in the ST?

[kool kitty89]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_home_computers_by_video_hardware

Lists it (under "Video Interface Controllers") simply as "ST Shifter" with 32k of video RAM. (so a custom chip?)
It definitely doesn't fall into the category of a simple video "sifter" though. (th ename's kind of a misnomer)

It may have been popular, but if developers wanted to move to something more capable support went to the Amiga (or PC, or both), and the STe didn't get the support. (perhaps they should have skipped the whole STe line and pushed for something entirely more advanced like the Falcon earlier on -probably a bit more primative, but definitely ahead of the MEGA STE) Or made the ST video upgradable in the first place, allowing current users to upgrade rather than having to buy a whole new system.

[Cornugon]

It may have been popular, but if developers wanted to move to something more capable support went to the Amiga (or PC, or both), and the STe didn't get the support. (perhaps they should have skipped the whole STe line and pushed for something entirely more advanced like the Falcon earlier on -probably a bit more primative, but definitely ahead of the MEGA STE) Or made the ST video upgradable in the first place, allowing current users to upgrade rather than having to buy a whole new system.

But that's also a problem with the Amiga's: They probably should have skipped the ECS-chipset and CDTV and released the AAA-chipset sooner (and have a CD32 equipped with it, then it WOULD have been a match for the Saturn and Playstation).
Also the videochipset wasn't upgradable either, unless you had a 'professional' machine like a 2/3/4000, where you could install a graphics card.
It would have been sweet though, to upgrade your Amiga 500 with an AGA chipset :)

[Chilly Willy]

But that's also a problem with the Amiga's: They probably should have skipped the ECS-chipset and CDTV and released the AAA-chipset sooner (and have a CD32 equipped with it, then it WOULD have been a match for the Saturn and Playstation).
Also the videochipset wasn't upgradable either, unless you had a 'professional' machine like a 2/3/4000, where you could install a graphics card.
It would have been sweet though, to upgrade your Amiga 500 with an AGA chipset :)

You could update the A500 and A2000 from OCS to ECS. I did on my A500. There really wasn't any way to make AGA for the A500, A2000, or A3000 since they had a 16 bit chipmem bus that ran at a set speed. AGA required a 32 bit chipmem bus that could be clocked twice as fast (14 MHz instead of 7 MHz). That was the main difference between the AGA and older chipsets.

You could also update the AGNUS on the A500/A2000 to the Fatter AGNUS. That allowed more chipmem. If you had Bogo memory in the A500, that would be used as extra chipmem with the Fatter AGNUS, but required you to cut a trace and run a wire... pretty simple. I did that on my A500 as well.

[Cornugon]

You could update the A500 and A2000 from OCS to ECS. I did on my A500. There really wasn't any way to make AGA for the A500, A2000, or A3000 since they had a 16 bit chipmem bus that ran at a set speed. AGA required a 32 bit chipmem bus that could be clocked twice as fast (14 MHz instead of 7 MHz). That was the main difference between the AGA and older chipsets.

You could also update the AGNUS on the A500/A2000 to the Fatter AGNUS. That allowed more chipmem. If you had Bogo memory in the A500, that would be used as extra chipmem with the Fatter AGNUS, but required you to cut a trace and run a wire... pretty simple. I did that on my A500 as well.

Yeah I know, I installed a fatter Agnus in a A2000 for 1MB Chip, but ECS wasn't a really big update to OCS, at least for games. It allowes for more Chip mem and other video modes but for games there isn't much improvent (aside from the very few non-AGA titles that actually made use of the extra chip mem). I believe it also increased the theoretical maximum screen size (or playfield or what's the correct term) to 16384x16384. Don't know if it's used in any games though, probably not.

I know you can't upgrade your OCS/ECS Amiga to an AGA, but as I said, it would have been sweet if it WAS possible.

[Chilly Willy]

Yeah I know, I installed a fatter Agnus in a A2000 for 1MB Chip, but ECS wasn't a really big update to OCS, at least for games. It allowes for more Chip mem and other video modes but for games there isn't much improvent (aside from the very few non-AGA titles that actually made use of the extra chip mem). I believe it also increased the theoretical maximum screen size (or playfield or what's the correct term) to 16384x16384. Don't know if it's used in any games though, probably not.

It increased the size of blits from 1024x1024 to 32768x32768. The main addition to ECS modes over OCS was SuperHiRes mode - 1280 wide with four colors. This was only used by GENLOCK/CG people. I can't think of a game that used it. It became more useful on AGA (which allowed SuperHiRes at 8 bitplanes) where it was used with some tweaked timing to make the 1024 wide and 800 wide displays.


I know you can't upgrade your OCS/ECS Amiga to an AGA, but as I said, it would have been sweet if it WAS possible.

Yes. I was just giving the reason why it wasn't possible... not without extensive changes to the mobo.