Getting the best picture possible out of the Genesis

[SegaDreamer]

Hi all. I have a Sega Genesis Model 1 and I'm playing it using composite video. The picture is acceptable I suppose but it is kinda blurry and the colors are washed out. I guess it also doesn't help that I'm playing on a 16:9 HDTV, but that's all I have. I'm wanting to get the best picture possible out of my Genesis, so I was going to do the S-Video mod shown here (http://home.comcast.net/~amakusa666/PC-ENGINE-HELL-SONY-CX1145-MOD.htm). But after giving it some thought, maybe just getting a SCART cable and converting it to component would be a better idea? And maybe it'll even give a better picture than S-Video with no soldering required? What would you guys recommend?

I did find a SCART Cable (http://cgi.ebay.com/Megadrive-Genesis-1-STEREO-RGB-SCART-cable-TV-lead-NEW_W0QQitemZ160380512769QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Com puting_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item25576c6a01) and a cheap converter (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-SCART-COMPONENT-S-VIDEO-for-Dreambox-Relook-Sky_W0QQitemZ330382262780QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item4cec5141fc) on Ebay. Being that the converter is like $30 cheaper than the other ones on there though makes me worry a tad, since you usually get what you pay for.

[Black_Tiger]

Hi all. I have a Sega Genesis Model 1 and I'm playing it using composite video. The picture is acceptable I suppose but it is kinda blurry and the colors are washed out. I guess it also doesn't help that I'm playing on a 16:9 HDTV, but that's all I have. I'm wanting to get the best picture possible out of my Genesis, so I was going to do the S-Video mod shown here (http://home.comcast.net/~amakusa666/PC-ENGINE-HELL-SONY-CX1145-MOD.htm). But after giving it some thought, maybe just getting a SCART cable and converting it to component would be a better idea? And maybe it'll even give a better picture than S-Video with no soldering required? What would you guys recommend?

I did find a SCART Cable (http://cgi.ebay.com/Megadrive-Genesis-1-STEREO-RGB-SCART-cable-TV-lead-NEW_W0QQitemZ160380512769QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Com puting_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item25576c6a01) and a cheap converter (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-SCART-COMPONENT-S-VIDEO-for-Dreambox-Relook-Sky_W0QQitemZ330382262780QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item4cec5141fc) on Ebay. Being that the converter is like $30 cheaper than the other ones on there though makes me worry a tad, since you usually get what you pay for.

No matter what, a Genesis is not going to look good on an HDTV. I recommend either using an XMD-3 for S-Video or scart + transcoder for component. There's no need to mod your console for video quality. You'd still be better off spending a small amount of money on a crt TV. Even a crappy one would look great compared to an HDTV.

[SegaDreamer]

No matter what, a Genesis is not going to look good on an HDTV. I recommend either using an XMD-3 for S-Video or scart + transcoder for component. There's no need to mod your console for video quality. You'd still be better off spending a small amount of money on a crt TV. Even a crappy one would look great compared to an HDTV. But shouldn't using S-Video or component make it look better at least, compared to composite? If using component will stretch the image, I don't mind. I already do that with everything I use.

[Christuserloeser]

What would you guys recommend?

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9205


ED/HDTVs aren't a good solution for your Mega Drive gaming.

In case your only TV is a HDTV, I would recommend something like this: http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=scart+hdmi+converter

Still, a standard CRT via RGB-to-component or S-Video or even composite would be the better choice.

Note that there are no reliable reports on the RGB-SCART to HDMI converter, but I definitely think it should be worth a try.

Going down the RGB-SCART to Component route would only be a safe bet if your TV is a SDTV CRT with component in. I wouldn't recommend it for HDTVs since chances are that a) your HDTV doesn't take 480i/240p via component at all, or b) it would still look like crap.


I did find a SCART Cable (http://cgi.ebay.com/Megadrive-Genesis-1-STEREO-RGB-SCART-cable-TV-lead-NEW_W0QQitemZ160380512769QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Com puting_CablesConnectors_RL?hash=item25576c6a01)

That seems like a very good deal.


and a cheap converter (http://cgi.ebay.com/NEW-SCART-COMPONENT-S-VIDEO-for-Dreambox-Relook-Sky_W0QQitemZ330382262780QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_Def aultDomain_0?hash=item4cec5141fc) on Ebay. Being that the converter is like $30 cheaper than the other ones on there though makes me worry a tad, since you usually get what you pay for.

It's a simple pass-through adapter, not a transcoder.

[SegaDreamer]

It's a simple pass-through adapter, not a transcoder.

I take it's better to get the transcoder then. All right, just wanted to see if there was a cheaper alternative.


Note that there are no reliable reports on the RGB-SCART to HDMI converter, but I definitely think it should be worth a try.

Going down the RGB-SCART to Component route would only be a safe bet if your TV is a SDTV CRT with component in. I wouldn't recommend it for HDTVs since chances are it would a) your HDTV doesn't take 480i/240p via component at all, or b) it would still look like crap.


My HDTV is a 720p LCD, but it only has one HDMI which I'm using for the PS3. Why would using component on it look bad though? It's an Olevia 237V if that helps.

[GohanX]

The problem is that an hdtv isn't designed to run the resolution that the genesis outputs. No matter what you do, unles you get an expensive scaler its going to look pretty bad. Play a Genesis game on your computer full screen with graphics filters off. That's what component will look like on your hdtv.

[SegaDreamer]

The problem is that an hdtv isn't designed to run the resolution that the genesis outputs. No matter what you do, unles you get an expensive scaler its going to look pretty bad. Play a Genesis game on your computer full screen with graphics filters off. That's what component will look like on your hdtv.
I see. Well, if it'll just be a waste of money and effort, maybe I should just go back to doing the S-Video mod? I've read many people have had success with it. I use S-Video on all my other classic consoles (SNES, Saturn, Dreamcast, and N64) and they look great on my HDTV. I would guess that I'd get the same result using S-Video with the Genesis.

Only problem is that I have no experience with soldering. I'm willing to learn though.

[kool kitty89]

A little off topic, but for the other systems, you do have the TV set to the propper aspect ratio, right? (not stretched -granted some N64 and DC games support anamorphic widescreen)

Some HDTVs can display SD contend fairly compitently, as well as dedicated SD LCD displays at least. (in both cases deinterlacing/line doubling and filtering) You should have sharpness turned to zero though, and any other filters turned off as well.

If you like the way Genesis games look in fusion, then by all means, go with the S-Video mod, if you like the look of Fusion's "TV mode," don't bother.

[Christuserloeser]

I take it's better to get the transcoder then. All right, just wanted to see if there was a cheaper alternative.

Well, I'd really recommend to get the HDMI converter:

1. Your setup via component:

Genesis' RGB -> Y'PbPr Transcoder, digitizes the signal, converts it to Y'CbCr, converts it to analog Y'PbPr -> TV, digitizes it, converts it back to RGB, upscales it

2. Your setup via HDMI:

Genesis' RGB -> HDMI Upscaler, digitzes it, upscales it -> TV



My HDTV is a 720p LCD, but it only has one HDMI which I'm using for the PS3.

http://shop.ebay.com/i.html?_nkw=hdmi+switch+box

[SegaDreamer]

A little off topic, but for the other systems, you do have the TV set to the propper aspect ratio, right? (not stretched -granted some N64 and DC games support anamorphic widescreen)

Some HDTVs can display SD contend fairly compitently, as well as dedicated SD LCD displays at least. (in both cases deinterlacing/line doubling and filtering) You should have sharpness turned to zero though, and any other filters turned off as well.

If you like the way Genesis games look in fusion, then by all means, go with the S-Video mod, if you like the look of Fusion's "TV mode," don't bother.
I do have my TV set to stretch. I'd rather have the image fill the screen more than see the big black bars on the side, but it still doesn't fill the entire screen. The TV is supposed to have a chip inside that upscales the image instead of just simply stretching it, but I don't know how accurate that is. Some systems like the SNES look great even with the image stretched. The N64 actually looks more blurry than the SNES, allthough not as bad as the Genesis.

[kool kitty89]

I just hate having the picture looking wrong (all stretched out), and the only other full screen option is zooming in,, which crops the top and bottom, an even worse option... (all immages will be scaled in any case, except those meant for the native resolution, which is often only a VGA/DVI device like a PC in the case of 720p rated LCDs, scaling 1280x720 to 1360x768, with 1080p being scaled down in that case, with 1080i being deinterlaced on top of that) It's odd, but people seem to mind pillarboxing more than letterboxing. (I wouldn't even mind a full black boarder if it meant no overscan and the correct aspect ratio)

I would personally much rather have pillarboxing than overscan or wrong aspect ratio, I'm bothered enough as it is by the overscan loss on SDTVs... (though I could find out how to adjust that in the service menue, and for anamorphic content, there's only horizontal overscan anyway)

I think it's silly how many people get HDTVs just to have a bigger, new TV and then watch mostly SD content on it via composite (or RF even), all stretched out, and blurry from scaling and deinterlacing. (ie using the standard issue cable/satellite decoder box with only composite/RF output, non-progressive DVD -which might not even work though component video if the HDTV won't accept 480i via component) Anything like that looks much better on a real CRT SDTV.


On the N64, it should be sharper than the SNES, or equal at least. Well, inless you're interpreting the blurred textels of the filtered textures as an actually blurred display (and there's plenty that's not filtered, particularly that which isn't textured). Games that display in 480i tend to look blurrier, the best ones are those using 240p but higher than 320 horizontally. (like 640x240, 640x480i is better in some cases, particularly those which stay at or below 30 FPS)

And I usually don't mind the filtering, judging by the blockiness that shows though, the textures would otherwise look horribly grainy and pixelated much of the time.

[SegaDreamer]

Depending on the TV you have, it may upscale the picture so it doesn't look all stretched. As I said earlier, putting my TV to full screen doesn't always fill the screen entirely. In fact it usually doesn't when I'm playing any classic console. Therefore it doesn't look as stretchy and not as extra-wide as it would be otherwise. Granted it's still changing the aspect ratio, but newer HDTVs handle SD content pretty well, for an HDTV anyway.

Either way, I think I'm just going to go with the S-Video mod. It has improved the picture on all my other consoles so the Genesis should have the same result, and I don't have to buy a $15 cable or a $50+ transcoder. I know I can get most of the parts at RadioShack, but where's the best place to get an S-Video connector?

[kool kitty89]

If you're OK with stretching, I'd stick with that, upscaling to full screen would involve cropping the top and bottom of th eimmage to fit into a 16:9 screen, so you'd be losing a lot of the picture, and being zoomed in, thepixels will be even larger/blockier. (except for a few games with borders, like Virtua Racing, where very little would get cropped that wasn't blank)

[WaverBoy]

I don't think I've seen a single widescreen set that's been set up properly. People whose homes I've been to that have them (including my parents!) are, like you said, contentedly watching SD content all stretched and blurred. I can't wait until I can afford one, and you can be damn sure the bloody thing will be set up correctly.

[kool kitty89]

We still have an SDTV as our main TV at home, we have a ~30" LCD HDTV, but my dad's using that mainly as his computer monitor. Oddly enough, DVI/HDMI wouldn't allow the native resolution to be used, just the scaled 1280x720 which is quite blurry, he had to use VGA to use th enative 1360x768 resolution. (actually it might be at 1300x768 as 16:9 content cets clipped and the pixels look a tad stretched horizontally -so possibly not running int he true native resolution, but a lot better than HDMI regardless)

[SegaDreamer]

My mom is the same way. They paid $1500 for a 50" Plasma HDTV, yet she only watches the SD programming we get with Dish Network. No over the air HD, or HD programming, just SD. Weird.

Anyhow, I'm pretty confident I'm going to do the S-Video mod. I just have to get the right parts.

[kool kitty89]

I beleive Ace described a simplified mod with very few components (no project board needed), I'll try and find that. (iirc a 75 ohm resistor on chroma, plus a transistor and 33 ohm resistor on luma)

[SegaDreamer]

Is it the same as this one?

http://home.comcast.net/~amakusa666/PC-ENGINE-HELL-SONY-CX1145-MOD.htm

I can get the 2N3904 transistor at RadioShack, and the resistors. I looked for the 220uf cap, but they all had different voltage ratings. Does that matter?

[kool kitty89]

There's a better simple S-Video mod for the CXA1145. What you need to do is this:

-75ohm resistor to Chroma
-NPN transistor connected like this: Base to Luminance, Collector to +5V, Emitter to a 33ohm resistor, resistor to Luminance pin on S-Video plug

Due to the extra clarity of the S-Video, and due to the nature of the CXA1145 as a blurry encoder, you can clearly see that the picture generated by the CXA1145 is in 2 different shades. In other words, you'll see what appears to be excessive line noise on the screen(most predominant on anything blue), but it's just the way the encoder works. You would see the same thing on a CXA1645 when adding S-Video to it.

That one has no cap at all (probbly not as universally compatible though). TmEE even suggested a super basic mod with nothing but a 56-75 ohm resistor on luma with nothing on chroma. (but that's highly dependent on the TV used)

As for caps though, I think most of the time anything rated for at least 5V is OK, but some will need to be higher. (since you'd only be using 5V in this case I think it's fine)


Edit: I'm not sure what the added cap on chrma would help with, I doubt it would help with the 2-tone lines (which Ace nots as a normal artifact of the CXA1145 itsself), perhaps it would elliminate the problem with weid color issues on some TVs, but I really don't know.

The resistor layout seems more or less the same. (just using multiple resistors to acheive the desired voltage, cheapest option would probably be buying a pack of assorted resistors from RS, assuming they carry those -a local one here does)

[Junon]

I disagree that a Mega Drive will always look bad on a HDTV. As long as you turn off all the image processing gubbins, don't stretch the picture, use an RGB SCART cable and turn the sharpness all the way down then it will look acceptable. Your mileage may vary of course and not all HDTVs handle lower res stuff well.

[kool kitty89]

And some won't accept a 240p signal at all, just a blank screen with "no signal" or some kind of error.
Some HDTVs will look OK, true, probably not quite as good as an SDTV. (and I', not positive, but I think the way most/all deinterlacing on HDTVs work for SD signals is to convert it to 480/30p, so you'd be cutting the framerate in 1/2)

[Ultraman]

A lot of great information here. I'd like some advice, though. I just purchased a model 1 High Def Genesis and I have a model 1 CD on the way. I currently have a 19" Sanyo LCD HD TV and a 19" CRT TV. I was thinking about having the s-video mod done on the genny, but my CRT doesn't have s-video inputs. What is the best option for my situation in getting the best image? Is the s-video worth it for the HD TV? Or should I just stick with composite on my CRT?

[kool kitty89]

There's no component video on the CRT either I assume.

Composite varies from TV to TV, by quality and age (mainly related to the quality of the comb filter used).
I have a freind with an old (~1990 or close to it) high-end ~25" Zenith Advanced System 3 which my pre-tmss model 1 looked awsome on (other than the rainbow banding inherant in that model). But get this: that was with RF! THe pre-tmss models have super thick RF banding on top of normal static, but that TV has soem awsome variable AFT (automativ fine tuning) and it looked better than composite on some TVs, no color bleeding until the color was adjusted to oversaturated anyway and very visible pixels. That TV is awsome! (his old 30" trinitron bled color like you wouldn't beleive though, even with a PS2 or Wii) In fact, with sharpness all the way up the pixels looked almost like S-video. (too visible for my freind's liking though) -My model 1 has the CXA1145, one of the blurrier ones, bright though, and still one of the "good" encoders. (the samsung one in model 2s being the awful one, and non-s-videoable)

I'd try composite on your CRT TV (play around with sharpness as well), if you like what you see, I wouldn't bother with anything else. Plus, if you ever get a 32x, you can get a sharper composite signal off that.

Also, for the HDTV (same for any plasma/LCD display), turn sharpness (and any filters) to zero, all they do is add artifacts. (sometimes a tiny bit of edge enhancement from sharpness can look better though, it's kind of variable, you're choice of course)

[Ultraman]

Yeah, my CRT TV is a cheap Emerson with no component, only composite hookups. Once the CD gets here, I'm going to play around with the settings on the LCD. If I can't get a good picture (my Genesis picture right now doesn't look too hot) I'll hook them up to the CRT.

Thanks!