Genesis Model 1 non TMSS HDG

[OldSchool]

Good afternoon to all,

:confused:My seller has this model in great shape: he says there's no Raindbow Banding and the audio is jamming. I've told him about how the capacitors on the Motherboard are cheap and prone to go out at anytime on that model and he would like to replace all of those capacitors on the MB for me.

Are there any Tutorials on this site that would help him with this project? He says he's capable of doing the soldering/etc, he just wants to make sure he doesn't screw something up and he asked me to find the documentation for him. Also: can someone point out to me what kind of materials (i.e. specific capacitors/etc) he'd need and where he could purchase them?

Also: (I just started a thread for this question on the 32X section of the forum)... if the 32X won't give me Stereo out audio (versus me having to go out of the headphone jack on the Genny), then I also want to ask: how would my seller go about modding my Genny to have a 3 way RCA out, one that has Stereo Audio and Video... as is typical on the SNES?? Again, a link for a tutorial and documentation would be awesome.

I can't thank you guys enough for the responses you gave me on my 'which Genesis should I buy' thread, now I need some help on this so I can help my seller in getting my Genesis ready so I won't run into any issues in the future with the MBs' capacitors going out. :D

(btw): I LOVE the reviews on this site!!!! They have been very helpful in deciding which games to add to my wantlist... along with all the very nice replies in my last thread, y'alls suggestions are very much appreciated!!! :o

Thank you so much for any help you can afford me,


OS

[streetsofrage]

sadly that tutorial does not exist on this site, at least

[Joe Redifer]

I do not understand what you mean by "the audio is jamming". My Genesis 1 non-TMSS had audio issues and I replaced ALL of the capacitors and it did not solve the issue. For now I cannot recommend changing the caps on a Genesis as I don't think it really does anything.

Secondly, why not just get a minijack to RCA cable? Why bother modding the system to have RCA-style jacks or whatever? I never understood why people do this. These types of cables are most certainly not rare. And all Genesis' of this vintage have rainbow banding. I have not seen a non-TMSS one that does not.

What do you mean by "my seller"? Someone who is selling the console for you?

[kool kitty89]

I do not understand what you mean by "the audio is jamming". I interpreted it as having "jammin' sound" ;) but I could be wrong.



Secondly, why not just get a minijack to RCA cable? Why bother modding the system to have RCA-style jacks or whatever? I never understood why people do this. These types of cables are most certainly not rare. And all Genesis' of this vintage have rainbow banding. I have not seen a non-TMSS one that does not.
In another recent discussion, some people mentioned having non-tmss models without (or very faint) rainbow banding, that and I think an s-video mod will elliminate this as well.

As to the caps, what kind of audio problem does your model 1 have? (there will always be quantization noice from the YM2612, and the hiss from the headphone jack is normal as well iirc)
One of my non-tmss modes causes the sega CD to crash after being on for a while (I thought it was the CD at fault initially), and I'm almost positive the capacitors are to blame. (the sound via RF is also really staticy/buzzing on every TV but a ~5 year old Sanyo CRT -which sounds perfect -headphone is OK, not sure about mono via A/V though)

The banding shouldn't be integral to the origianl hadware (shouldn't have been there when it was new) and the same video encoders were used on later models. (it's also absent from RGB, hence why the 32x gets rid of it)


Oldschool,
Do note that not all model 1s have cheap capacitors which tend to go bad, some have caps from respecatable manufacturers as well, it's not consistant. (but good sound and lack of rainbow banding are good signs)

As for a tutorial, there are a couple members working on making a list of the caps used in model 1s and are planning on making some replacement kits as well I believe.

[Joe Redifer]

My problem was that some sounds were going where they shouldn't, like over to the left speaker when they should be centered. Some sounds sounded different (such as a nice drum in Gaiares sounding more like a hit on a wet bladder) and others were accentuated (high frequencies became quite loud on some channels). The volume knob would output some slight staticy garbage out the right speaker when turned all the way down. This would begin to happen after the Genesis was powered on for 10 or more minutes. I posted about this problem and it was suggested here on this site that I should replace all the caps. I did and the problem remained. Note that I also replaced the headphone jack itself prior to replacing the caps.

So what I did was powered the Genesis on, put it in a sound test and let it go. I left it on playing the sound test for over 12 hours. The sound was perfect when I came back. I let it cool down for 12 hours and came back and played for a while and the sound is still perfect. It has not FUBAR'd again yet, hopefully it stays fine.

[Baloo]

My problem was that some sounds were going where they shouldn't, like over to the left speaker when they should be centered. Some sounds sounded different (such as a nice drum in Gaiares sounding more like a hit on a wet bladder) and others were accentuated (high frequencies became quite loud on some channels). The volume knob would output some slight staticy garbage out the right speaker when turned all the way down. This would begin to happen after the Genesis was powered on for 10 or more minutes. I posted about this problem and it was suggested here on this site that I should replace all the caps. I did and the problem remained. Note that I also replaced the headphone jack itself prior to replacing the caps.

So what I did was powered the Genesis on, put it in a sound test and let it go. I left it on playing the sound test for over 12 hours. The sound was perfect when I came back. I let it cool down for 12 hours and came back and played for a while and the sound is still perfect. It has not FUBAR'd again yet, hopefully it stays fine.

That sounds like a pretty interesting fix, heh.

[kool kitty89]

My problem was that some sounds were going where they shouldn't, like over to the left speaker when they should be centered. Some sounds sounded different (such as a nice drum in Gaiares sounding more like a hit on a wet bladder) and others were accentuated (high frequencies became quite loud on some channels). The volume knob would output some slight staticy garbage out the right speaker when turned all the way down. This would begin to happen after the Genesis was powered on for 10 or more minutes. I posted about this problem and it was suggested here on this site that I should replace all the caps. I did and the problem remained. Note that I also replaced the headphone jack itself prior to replacing the caps.

So what I did was powered the Genesis on, put it in a sound test and let it go. I left it on playing the sound test for over 12 hours. The sound was perfect when I came back. I let it cool down for 12 hours and came back and played for a while and the sound is still perfect. It has not FUBAR'd again yet, hopefully it stays fine.

OK that's really weird... maybe it was one of the non electrolytic capacitors that got messed up and leaving it on like that did something, who knows? (definitely something affected by charger or heat building up -in the case of heat you could have tested that by putting it in the firdge/freezer for a while and seein if that delsyed it)


I know VA02 model 2 consoles have the PSG volume off, but that's integral to the mixing circuit used.

[Defolto]

My Nes does someting like that, It has lines in the TV and if you leave it on for an hour or so it goes away, and I use composit AV cables so its not audio getting stuck in the signal

[OldSchool]

I interpreted it as having "jammin' sound" ;) but I could be wrong.



In another recent discussion, some people mentioned having non-tmss models without (or very faint) rainbow banding, that and I think an s-video mod will elliminate this as well.

As to the caps, what kind of audio problem does your model 1 have? (there will always be quantization noice from the YM2612, and the hiss from the headphone jack is normal as well iirc)
One of my non-tmss modes causes the sega CD to crash after being on for a while (I thought it was the CD at fault initially), and I'm almost positive the capacitors are to blame. (the sound via RF is also really staticy/buzzing on every TV but a ~5 year old Sanyo CRT -which sounds perfect -headphone is OK, not sure about mono via A/V though)

The banding shouldn't be integral to the origianl hadware (shouldn't have been there when it was new) and the same video encoders were used on later models. (it's also absent from RGB, hence why the 32x gets rid of it)


Oldschool,
Do note that not all model 1s have cheap capacitors which tend to go bad, some have caps from respecatable manufacturers as well, it's not consistant. (but good sound and lack of rainbow banding are good signs)
As for a tutorial, there are a couple members working on making a list of the caps used in model 1s and are planning on making some replacement kits as well I believe.

You rule! Thank you so much for your in depth and very helpful response!!

Hell, I wonder if my seller has a model that indeed has quality Capacitors on it... you know what... lol, I'm thinking I'll just buy the bloody thing and enjoy it until the day something happens to it... for $50, if I get 5-10 years of perfect operation out of it, it'll be money well spent... and in the future, I can always buy a modded/refurbished one from someone on this forum.

None, my Seller says the audio sounds perfect, and the picture is perfect. I 'only' wanted to have him replace the Capacitors on the MB just to be safe/ensure the longevity of the unit.

[OldSchool]

I do not understand what you mean by "the audio is jamming". My Genesis 1 non-TMSS had audio issues and I replaced ALL of the capacitors and it did not solve the issue. For now I cannot recommend changing the caps on a Genesis as I don't think it really does anything.

Secondly, why not just get a minijack to RCA cable? Why bother modding the system to have RCA-style jacks or whatever? I never understood why people do this. These types of cables are most certainly not rare. And all Genesis' of this vintage have rainbow banding. I have not seen a non-TMSS one that does not.

What do you mean by "my seller"? Someone who is selling the console for you?

"The audio is jamming" = The audio sounds like it should.

"My seller" = The man who is selling me the Genesis.


The main reason I didn't want to do this was because I'm sure it adds a bit of noise to have this extra conversion in the chain. I'm an audiophile and adding any bit of noise to an already oldschool piece of hardware with low quality sound to begin with doesn't sound like the best idea to me... but, who knows... it might not be a big deal at all, and I might just end up doing that.

This order has been ready for a month now, and honestly: I'm ready to play some Sonic, so I'm about to cave and quit worrying about modding the bloody thing.


Strange, the unit I had as a kid (HD Model 1 non TMSS) had ZERO issues with any kind of graphical artifacts. I played a LOT of Sonic, Mercs, Batman, Thunderforce II, Altered Beast, and I never saw this "rainbow banding". I've read on this forum that the Waterfalls in various levels of Sonic 1 are supposed to be "perfect examples" of where the "rainbow banding" occurs, yet I never saw any of those artifacts when I played that game and those levels on my system as a kid.

[Joe Redifer]

Most people take the sound for the RCA jacks from the headphone port anyway. So you'd just be cutting holes in the system for no benefit. The headphone jack itself doesn't really add any noise, but if you like you can remove the wires that connect the headphone jack to the motherboard get some Monster® Cable™ and solder it on to connect the two. As you know, Monster® Cable™ is perfect, not overhyped and certainly not overpriced at all. They don't even list gauges on their wire because they are that awesome. When I bought my house, I ripped out all of the electrical wiring and replaced it with Monster® Cable™ because I am a powerphile. I would literally die for Monster® Cable™, that's how much I like it.

[OldSchool]

Most people take the sound for the RCA jacks from the headphone port anyway. So you'd just be cutting holes in the system for no benefit. The headphone jack itself doesn't really add any noise, but if you like you can remove the wires that connect the headphone jack to the motherboard get some Monster® Cable™ and solder it on to connect the two. As you know, Monster® Cable™ is perfect, not overhyped and certainly not overpriced at all. They don't even list gauges on their wire because they are that awesome. When I bought my house, I ripped out all of the electrical wiring and replaced it with Monster® Cable™ because I am a powerphile. I would literally die for Monster® Cable™, that's how much I like it.

That's pretty hard core.


After being corrected in another thread, this seems to be the case and I'm overthinking this.


I had a car stereo system with nothing but Vampire Cable in it back in the day... was the cleanest system I've ever had except for the crappy Eclipse Mid Range speaks.

[kool kitty89]

You rule! Thank you so much for your in depth and very helpful response!!

Hell, I wonder if my seller has a model that indeed has quality Capacitors on it... you know what... lol, I'm thinking I'll just buy the bloody thing and enjoy it until the day something happens to it... for $50, if I get 5-10 years of perfect operation out of it, it'll be money well spent... and in the future, I can always buy a modded/refurbished one from someone on this forum.

A few things:
1. rainbow banding is really that bad (dependign on persoanl prefrence of course)
2. it will be elliminated in s-video mod or a improved composite video mod as well see: http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?p=217070&postcount=383 (and a few following posts by Ace and myself)
If you or a freind/relative have any kind of moderate soldering skills, you should be able to do either (or both) of these easily. (and if you really hate dithering/pixelization you probably shouldn't bother with S-video, the improved composite mod would be the way to go)

And a capacitor compilation list is now listed and being expanded here: http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10012

$50 is a lot for a genesis, even with 2 controllers, power supply and AV cables maybe if it's near mint in the original box. Really they can be had for relatively cheap and even with banding (which is often the only noticable capacitor problem) it's pretty easy to fix or live with as-is. ($15-20 for a unit with power adaptor and a couple controllers is more reasonable -maybe $25 with AV cable)


Most people take the sound for the RCA jacks from the headphone port anyway. So you'd just be cutting holes in the system for no benefit. The headphone jack itself doesn't really add any noise The headphone amp does tend to have a bit of hiss, but that's mostly noticable via headphones at low volume not on a TV/Stereo amp at max volume. It is the only stereo amp in the system, so short of adding a new amp to the board it's the only route for stereo. (at best, short of a new amp, you could probably bypass the volume slider -but that would do very little unless the slider is damaged to dirty)


but if you like you can remove the wires that connect the headphone jack to the motherboard get some Monster® Cable™ and solder it on to connect the two. As you know, Monster® Cable™ is perfect, not overhyped and certainly not overpriced at all.LoL yeah, that's why we only buy those when they're on sale and equal or lower than averages contemporaries. (at least their Nintendo Multi AV cables have real S-video...) Having thick tough cables isn't a bad thing either, especially if they get a bit of abuse.
(as an asside, I recenetly realized that any normal RCA cables be it audio/composite or component video rated tend to be insufficient for transmitting RF without degridation, dedicated RF cables are the only way to go, especially with the relatively noisy RF the Genesis outputs -homebrew RCA cables using antenna/RF coaxial cable with RCA ends should work fine too)




Strange, the unit I had as a kid (HD Model 1 non TMSS) had ZERO issues with any kind of graphical artifacts. I played a LOT of Sonic, Mercs, Batman, Thunderforce II, Altered Beast, and I never saw this "rainbow banding". I've read on this forum that the Waterfalls in various levels of Sonic 1 are supposed to be "perfect examples" of where the "rainbow banding" occurs, yet I never saw any of those artifacts when I played that game and those levels on my system as a kid.
There are non TMSS models that still don't have rainbow banding, but most do (and many TMSS models as well, probably some non HDG ones even -not sure anout the final VA7 model).
This happens with age, the capacitors are responsible and the video seems particularly sensitive (audio can be fine -in soem bad cases, like one I have there are audio problems on mono and problems with the Sega CD too).
No Genesis should have ever had such artifacting when new. (and probably not many until a few years ago either)

Also, PAL units seem to suffer far less from this, presumably due to the superior color carrier of PAL video. (4.43 MHz rather than 3.58 MHz) Any rainbow banding visible in PAL composite video tends to be very faint if present.

[Joe Redifer]

My Genesis had the rainbow when new. It never truly bothered me until I got a 32X and the rainbow went away. Then when I played without a 32X, I was like WTF?!

[omp]

Also, PAL units seem to suffer far less from this, presumably due to the superior color carrier of PAL video. (4.43 MHz rather than 3.58 MHz) Any rainbow banding visible in PAL composite video tends to be very faint if present.


When you guys talk of Rainbow Banding I have NFI what you are talking about, hence why I would agree with the above statement.

[Joe Redifer]

Yes, it is an NTSC encoding issue.

[snakesqzns]

Most people take the sound for the RCA jacks from the headphone port anyway. So you'd just be cutting holes in the system for no benefit. The headphone jack itself doesn't really add any noise, but if you like you can remove the wires that connect the headphone jack to the motherboard get some Monster® Cable™ and solder it on to connect the two. As you know, Monster® Cable™ is perfect, not overhyped and certainly not overpriced at all. They don't even list gauges on their wire because they are that awesome. When I bought my house, I ripped out all of the electrical wiring and replaced it with Monster® Cable™ because I am a powerphile. I would literally die for Monster® Cable™, that's how much I like it.

Monster Cable will sound like crap. He needs to solder pure silver wire directly to the pcb. Even then it won't sound right until it's calibrated by a professional Genesis Audio Calibration Engineer. There's only one in the world, and it's me, and I charge $1000 an hour.

[kool kitty89]

When you guys talk of Rainbow Banding I have NFI what you are talking about, hence why I would agree with the above statement.

http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?p=214641&postcount=11
There's a thread dedicated to it, and indeed it seems to occur on PAL units, just nowhere near as noticable.

Huh, I just realized that above post must mean Tiido's Phillips TV works with both NTSC and PAL color signals.

[Devil N]

http://sega-16.com/forum/showthread.php?p=214641&postcount=11
There's a thread dedicated to it, and indeed it seems to occur on PAL units, just nowhere near as noticable.

Huh, I just realized that above post must mean Tiido's Phillips TV works with both NTSC and PAL color signals.
That's possible. My Bang & Olufsen MX4000 TV does too. It wasn't very common, but certain higher-end CRTs do support NTSC color signals. Nowadays with modern LCD TVs it's actually pretty normal to have full NTSC support.

[kool kitty89]

That's possible. My Bang & Olufsen MX4000 TV does too. It wasn't very common, but certain higher-end CRTs do support NTSC color signals. Nowadays with modern LCD TVs it's actually pretty normal to have full NTSC support.

Why the hell don't NTSC sets do likewise? (AFIK no US sets even work in 50 Hz let alone support 4.43 MHz chroma) Unless I'm mistaken, but I haven't heard of such. (that would certainly be helpful for MN12BIRD with his PAL CD32)

[m68k]

"As you know, Monster® Cable™ is perfect, not overhyped and certainly not overpriced at all. They don't even list gauges on their wire because they are that awesome. When I bought my house, I ripped out all of the electrical wiring and replaced it with Monster® Cable™ because I am a powerphile. I would literally die for Monster® Cable™, that's how much I like it."
Wow....I am sure that is fake, but anyways here is a pretty funny article. [URL="http://http://consumerist.com/2008/03/do-coat-hangers-sound-as-good-monster-cables.html"]

If any of you are looking for the ultimate in wire, I have a half a meter of oxygen-free, triple-wrapped double-insulated Sonically Shielded AmpliSized Egyptian Llama cable here that I will get rid of for $999.99 per foot! :D

[genesisguy]

Reviving an old thread here. There appears to be two schools of thought regarding the rainbow banding on the non-Tmss models. My VA3 non TmSS model has the banding on black transition screens, but not on black screens during game play. It also shows the banding on dark blue screens no matter what the game. My VA6 TmSS model 1 has the rainbow banding as well.

I'm playing these on a TV that doesn't support S-video so doing that mod is pointless. Also I never listen in stereo so doing that mod is somewhat pointless until I purchase a newer TV. I can live with the banding as long as it doesn't get any worse, or start doing it during actual game play.

Is there any type of mod I could do just to the composite video that would remove the rainbow banding?

I know Joe Redifer replaced all his caps and still has the rainbow banding. I really don't want to go through all that trouble and still have this issue.

[Ecco]

It sounds like you need to have it worked on by snakesqzns:



Monster Cable will sound like crap. He needs to solder pure silver wire directly to the pcb. Even then it won't sound right until it's calibrated by a professional Genesis Audio Calibration Engineer. There's only one in the world, and it's me, and I charge $1000 an hour.

^Granted that's just his pricing for audio work, but I bet it would only be a little more expensive for him to fix the problems you described