Best And worst Quality FMV (Streaming video) on the Sega CD?

[kool kitty89]

Oh I was speaking for what I think the masses would think there, not for what I would have liked. I totally agree with the Wing Commander live action sequences too. Aside from Warhawk, I can't think of a PS1 game with live actors in the FMV cutscenes though. That, and I absolutely hated the CGI in Final Fantasy VII. CGI cutscenes pretty much made the Playstation in my opinion. I can't tell you how many people I ran into that thought the cutscenes were Playstation graphics back in the day. I noticed right away when PS1 games shifted away from real time attract modes and I knew they were fooling people by doing so.

In terms of the masses, I don't think it was until 1993 that CGI cinema even started to really look decent for the mass media, especially wit workstations at reasonable enough cost for video game production. It got big fast though, '94, then '5 opening up more and more.

I still think the really posterized look of Novastorm isn't that preferable (especially with what seems to be a fixed palette). I really think more dithering would have benefitted it overall (especially with the amount of blur on composite video).
If it wasn't for the gaudy colors on some of the sprites and really bland (or even nasty) looking sky, I wouldn't mind do much... except the super posterized live action segments.

I'm pretty sure a lot of people would have preferred live action even with mediocre actors (many were no worse than voice acting in CGI cutscenes anyway). But animating humans was one of the worst examples of early CGI (for cartoonie stuff or sci-fi it was OK).
The posterization looks OK in some cases, but it can be really had to pull off properly in other cases: Myst for example. That would have been interesting to see had they completed it. (from what I recall it was rather heavily dithered) I'm actually more partial to Return to Zork myself, though that wasn't as well recieved as Myst.

There's always compromise between dithering and thresholding (posterization), plus better dithering techniques too. I personally find dithering usually preferable unless the game specifically used pixel art for the start anyway, but any such cases usually used buffered animation (sometimes streaming+buffered) and not FMV, like Popful Mail, Chuck Rock II, BC Racers, and a lot of lucas arts games. (all the animation in X-WIng is buffered I think, I think most or all in a lot of graphic adventures is too, like DOTT or Full Throttle, even Rebel Assault used a lot of that in addition to FMV, as did return to Zork -the typical minimal facial experession and lip animation overlaid onto a static image of the character's face, and similar -there are several cases of actual cutscenes, but less common -especially in the floppy disk version)

Still looks a hell of a lot better than Rebel Assault, that game is just weird in the manner potimized both for the PC and then again for the MCD. (the palette choices, poor compromises to maintain a higher resolution/screen size, bad compression artifacts, etc)
The odd art design is not all that detrimental in the long run, just a bit curious.

[sheath]

I agree that CGI just wasn't there yet for the Sega CD. Lots of things weren't there yet for the Sega CD though. I think it is highly probable that the Sega CD caused some of these things to arrive sooner than they would have.

On the topic of Rebel Assault though, I really don't understand. My best friend and I were Star Wars nuts back in the day. We saw the PC version running on a friend's tiny monitor, and when the Sega CD game came out we were stunned. Both by the bad reviews and at the nearly perfect translation to the Sega CD. I did a comparison that I'm obviously going to have to do again between the Sega CD and 3DO version. One of the problems I ran into with my older comparison videos was that Avid Free DV was forcing them to output in lower bitrate, which resulted in blurrier video. I kept all of the high bitrate original captures though, I just need to get around to redoing them without putting a lot of thought into them.

The actual Genesis output helps a lot with the issues you dislike in Rebel Assault, but the 32X really makes that game look great. There are still large squares that pop up occasionally, and the framerate isn't the best, but I really enjoyed that game. All the same, I prefer Rebel Assault over Star Wars Arcade by a wide margin.

[kool kitty89]

I agree that CGI just wasn't there yet for the Sega CD. Lots of things weren't there yet for the Sega CD though. I think it is highly probable that the Sega CD caused some of these things to arrive sooner than they would have.

A lot of stuff improved with compressed video though, within the oriinal limits still.
I'm actually surprised Digital pictures didn't look into a laserdisc based game console after their partnership fell though (or before even, as VHS or streaming cable are both limited). It would have been high-end but especially as an add-on for existing LD players that could have been really interesting. (LD is even the format initially experimented with on the ColecoVision -also planned for the 7800- that later led to Digital Pictures)
They'd have needed a partner in the LD market: Pioneer would be an obvious choice given their prominent products, hell it could have jumpstarted the Laseractive before Pioneer took that upon themselves.
As it was DP had to wait over 2 years with 2 completed games (in terms of produced and completely edited footage for Night Trap and Sewer Shark -the latter completed in '89, the former in '87 I think) before another viable platform came along in the form of the Sega CD in '92. (in the US) I think they took interest in both Sega's and Nintendo's potential CD platforms (commenting on the much higher video quality possible on the SNES)

On the topic of Rebel Assault though, I really don't understand. My best friend and I were Star Wars nuts back in the day. We saw the PC version running on a friend's tiny monitor, and when the Sega CD game came out we were stunned. Both by the bad reviews and at the nearly perfect translation to the Sega CD. I did a comparison that I'm obviously going to have to do again between the Sega CD and 3DO version. One of the problems I ran into with my older comparison videos was that Avid Free DV was forcing them to output in lower bitrate, which resulted in blurrier video. I kept all of the high bitrate original captures though, I just need to get around to redoing them without putting a lot of thought into them.

The PC version looks relatively bad, really, really nasty compression artifacts in any of th emore active in-game scenes on top of using the default VGA palette (why?). I'd have been much happier with a smaller screen size (or resolution) and less artifacting. What's odd is that similar bitrates on contemporary (or slightly later) PC releases of FMV games look loads better and I realize part of that was decoding an oversized screen for the panning effect, but that doesn't explain the poor quality in some parts of the cutscenes. (or why they weren't willin to use a smaller screen size)
IIRC the MAC (and probably 3DO) versions have better cutscenes, but the in-game footage has similar compression artifacting. (the 3DO recording on youtube is very filtered so you can't tell as much)

The Sega CD version is considerably worse and oddly optimized. It takes the default VGA images and then converts them to the Genesis Palette (not so bad actually for any of the less/uncompressed stuff, good use of dithering where necessary, though it looks like fixed 16 color and not tile optimized palettes, but I'm not positive). The cutscenes don't look too much worse than the PC for the most part other than some nasty screen tearing (they weren't willing to cut the screen small enough to allow double buffering apparently), they also used the higher res H40 mode with 320 wide resolution, though still clipped. (another contributing factor to not being able to double buffer)
Then they use overlay of the 2nd BG layer for some animation and cutscenes, but not in game... not even sprites in-game... all is rendered on a single 16-color layer (hopefully using the ASIC and not software rendering), the same layer that the video is playing on...

Then there's the artifacting... the PC's was bad, but usually tolerable, but the CD's is downright rediculous and I have no idea why they didn't cut the screen size down or resolution (ie scale it up, doubled pixels horizontally and/or vertically -though that wouldn't solve the screen tearing as shrinking the screen could). The framerate is about 1/2 that of the PC or 3DO's peak 15 fps and the screen tearing is very noticeable (and it tears as tiles, not like a bitmap, so you have both vertical and horizontal tearing artifacts).

This video shows it rather well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6yOX2vmxgY



The Sega CD version is also missing one level for some unknown reason (the CD capacity should have been similar).

The actual Genesis output helps a lot with the issues you dislike in Rebel Assault, but the 32X really makes that game look great. There are still large squares that pop up occasionally, and the framerate isn't the best, but I really enjoyed that game. All the same, I prefer Rebel Assault over Star Wars Arcade by a wide margin.

It looks terrible when emulated, and I haven't burned the disc yet (I'm not going to buy a 4th copy of that games... I've got the DOC version and somehow ended up with 2 Mac CDs for it), but it looks truely awful in Fusion when the artifacting starts going. I'm sure having it on a TV with blurry composite video and the high persistence phosphor CRT would obscure some of the artifacts and make the screen tearing look not as bad, but the artifacting is inexcusable, it's so blatent with massive microblocking and related colro and detail loss on top of the framerate and tearing issues (composite video for the 3DO would probably be much more useful though).

I would have been much happier with even sewer shark or night trap size video if it meant a similar framerate and lack of artifacting or tearing. (it would still have to be compressed even at that size due to the larger area necessary for panning... but honestly it would probably have been OK to be a bit bigger than that -as it was it was 288x117 in-game for the visible window -which would allow double buffering if not for the panning effect employed requiring a larger screen than actually visible) Plus had they used a dedicated layer for the streaming portions, it could have had tile by tile color optimization and a bit more detail. (not to metion some other freedom from using actual hardware sprites, or even blitter/software rendering on a separate BG layer)

Microcosm or NovaStorm look far better on the CD... better than rebel assault on the PC in some respects actually (again, I'd have preferred a bit more dithering to the heavy posterization, but it's still pretty good all things considered -3DO and PC look a lot better still). Of course in-game NovaStorm only streamed a fixed window untlike rebel assaults panning effect using a larger screen (or the streaming PCM of rebel assault), but it managed 256x144 screen at 15 fps and no tearing.


But for PC gamers, Rebel Assault is certianly no X-Wing. (also 1993, though the improved CD version not until '94) That would have been impossible on the Sega CD though, maybe 32x/CD32x (RAM is pretty tight), certianly on the 3DO, Jaguar or later consoles though. (Jag cart could be limiting, some cuts might have been necessary for 4 MB depedning onthe level of compression, 6 MB was very uncommon to use ont he jag due to costs, there was the Jag CD of course) The Jag would have been particularly suitable givne the keypad. (wing commander games on the Sega CD -even with 6 buton- 3DO, or PSX were a bit tight to fit to gamepads, even with 8 buttons -combos were necessary, actually combos were necessary on the PC even and for X-wing too -namely commands using shift+ another key or crtl+ another key -ctrl+e is the standard eject/bail out command for most PC flight sims)

For fans of constrained arcade railshooters Rebel Assault might be more enticing, but I don't think it would have torn me away from X-Wing for long back in '95. (or later) Maybe watching someone else or a demo display would have been more attractive with Assault, but not playing the games. (unless the computer couldn't handel X-Wing -but any too weak to play reasonably even at some lower detail levels would not be very well off for Rebel Assault either)

[Black_Tiger]

Nah its all real time Mega Drive graphics, with the CD used to play back some amazing Red Book CD music. The intro is real time too, and the different sections of the Intro , loaded into the Mega CD system RAM

The polygonal stuff in Out of this Word, Heart of the Alien and Flashback look pre-rendered. But the HotA intro (complete with transparent colored polygons) is definitely pre-rendered.

[kool kitty89]

The polygonal stuff in Out of this Word, Heart of the Alien and Flashback look pre-rendered. But the HotA intro (complete with transparent colored polygons) is definitely pre-rendered.

Heart of the Alien uses animation, I believe (as does Prince of Persia and Flashback), but Out of this world/Another World does not. That was a big design goal, using realtime rasterized 2D graphics to allow rather fluid animation with limited memory (be it on carts, or the orignal home computer floppy disk releases). It's rasterized vector graphics I think, rather like Flash animation. (but far more pimitive)

There are a few cutscenes using actual 3D too. (the opening scene with the car sliding to a stop comes to mind)

[sheath]

I'm not sure if this has been posted, but Stellar Fire's FMV is really good quality.

[Joe Redifer]

Why is there vertical tearing in the middle of the screen? Is that just the emulator used? I don't recall ever seeing vertical tearing on a real game system. Hell, the real systems draw the lines horizontally so they'd have to try pretty hard to do something like vertical tearing. I demand lots of explanations for this... pronto!

[Team Andromeda]

The polygonal stuff in Out of this Word, Heart of the Alien and Flashback look pre-rendered. But the HotA intro (complete with transparent colored polygons) is definitely pre-rendered.

Nah its all Real Time , The CD Drive is being used to for the CD soundtrack, not to stream the graphics .

[sheath]

Why is there vertical tearing in the middle of the screen? Is that just the emulator used? I don't recall ever seeing vertical tearing on a real game system. Hell, the real systems draw the lines horizontally so they'd have to try pretty hard to do something like vertical tearing. I demand lots of explanations for this... pronto!

I think virtually everything on Youtube that isn't a CAM is an emulator. Belpowerslave only used emulation, Gens or Kgen, to take his videos using FRAPS. They tearing might be original though.

[tomaitheous]

I'm not sure if this has been posted, but Stellar Fire's FMV is really good quality.

Yeah, that one looks pretty good. Makes the older gen titles with messy dithering, look even worse than they are. When did this game come out?

Why is there vertical tearing in the middle of the screen? Is that just the emulator used? I don't recall ever seeing vertical tearing on a real game system. Hell, the real systems draw the lines horizontally so they'd have to try pretty hard to do something like vertical tearing.

I demand lots of explanations for this... pronto!

Yes sir! <o.

It comes down to pic your poison, most likely. You can setup the tiles so that they are vertical strips, instead of horizontal strips, for the tilemap. Duke Nuke'm Brazil Edition (TM) for the Sega Megadrive does this.

[sheath]

Yeah, that one looks pretty good. Makes the older gen titles with messy dithering, look even worse than they are. When did this game come out?

1993, I don't have a month. I will eventually systematically find the release month published in game magazines from the time and assume that is correct. It is slow going though, as so many interviews and press releases have gone unnoticed in these magazines. I doubt I will get to 1993 by the end of this year.

[kool kitty89]

Nah its all Real Time , The CD Drive is being used to for the CD soundtrack, not to stream the graphics .

Out of this world is, but the other 2 aren't. Flashback uses actual rotoscoped animation, like Prince of Persia, and I don't think it uses vsctor based graphics either, just lots of animation (possibly compressed, and certianly posterized/low color).

Heart of the Alien is all animation I think. (facilitated by the CD and RAM available) It could be a mix, but I recall reading that it was animated.

"realtime" can be a bit misleading too... realtime 2D graphics could be inclusive of animation in some contexts.

Why is there vertical tearing in the middle of the screen? Is that just the emulator used? I don't recall ever seeing vertical tearing on a real game system. Hell, the real systems draw the lines horizontally so they'd have to try pretty hard to do something like vertical tearing. I demand lots of explanations for this... pronto!

I think it's doen to fake a higher framerate, and it on'y occurs at certain points and is exactly in the center, not screen tearing due to lack of duble buffering.

It's hard to see in emulation at full speed and even harder on a TV, though with some video captures or choppy emulation, it's noticeable. (and going frame by frame in fusion, of course)

It wouldn't be tough to set it up to update half the tilemap at a time like that, and again, it's intentional, so not randomly spaced.

However, in Rebel assault, there's both horizontal and vertical tearing (justified to the bottom right iirc) due to lack of buffering, the tilemap format (for horizontal tearing), and lack of any sort of optimization to be more appealing. (ie split it into more evenly segmented updates if not facilitating double buffering)

Yeah, that one looks pretty good. Makes the older gen titles with messy dithering, look even worse than they are. When did this game come out?

It came out in 1993, though again, the live action parts look pretty posterized (not as bad as NovaStorm, but a lot uglier than most dithered stuff IMO -of course Sewer Shark and Night Trap have a resolution disadvantage too, so dithering is less effective) Most of the compression quality from 1993 onward was rather similar in quality. (varying by framerate, screen size, and dithering used -though Rebel Assault is the only case of any heavy compression bicroblocking -though sometimes it's a little hard to tell dither artifacts from compression artifacts)

It's also one of the few games using 320 wide res mode, and using the full width at that.

I already brought it up a few times, including in a 3rd group of pictures I was hoping you'd look at (color count and blending), but either you missed the couple times I posted it, or got tired of analyzing the stuff. (though you didn't comment one way or another) Plus some others including rebel assault, nova storm, and dune.

but see here:
http://sega-16.com/forum/showpost.ph...8&postcount=77
http://sega-16.com/forum/showpost.ph...4&postcount=70

[Team Andromeda]

Out of this world is, but the other 2 aren't. Flashback uses actual rotoscoped animation, like Prince of Persia, and I don't think it uses vsctor based graphics either, just lots of animation (possibly compressed, and certianly posterized/low color).

Heart of the Alien is all animation I think. (facilitated by the CD and RAM available) It could be a mix, but I recall reading that it was animated

Here we go again . Its quite simple its real time . The CD is used to play the music not stream any FMV intro or any extra graphical detail. There is no need to get to technical detail about the game animation routine. That would be like saying Aladdin isn't real time on the Mega Drive, because it plays back pre animated frames of animation.

Back to FMV Cadillac and Dinosaurs on the Mega CD has some great FMV both in-game and for the Intro too

[kool kitty89]

Here we go again . Its quite simple its real time . The CD is used to play the music not stream any FMV intro or any extra graphical detail. There is no need to get to technical detail about the game animation routine. That would be like saying Aladdin isn't real time on the Mega Drive, because it plays back pre animated frames of animation.

Where did I say it was streamed? I was implying full buffer animation in RAM for heart of the Alien, and FLashback is on several consoles including several not using CD drives (PC and Amiga on floppy loaded to RAM and MD and SNES on cart plus the CD versions). It's all prerendered animation like Prince of Persia, no vector/polygon rasterized graphics like Another World.

I think Another World might be unique in that respect for the era. (ie prior to full polygonal rendered 2D perspective platfomers or flash games of course -flash uses rasterized vector graphics drawn in realtime)

[Team Andromeda]

Where did I say it was streamed? I was implying full buffer animation in RAM for heart of the Alien,

It isn't full frame Buffer animation.