Best And worst Quality FMV (Streaming video) on the Sega CD?

[sheath]

I decided to go ahead and post my old Rebel Assault comparison videos from the 3DO (S-Video) and Sega CD (32X Composite) versions. I'm not sure how it happened but half of my old videos won't play in Divx web player, but they're still higher quality than Youtube Video.

[tomaitheous]

I already brought it up a few times, including in a 3rd group of pictures I was hoping you'd look at (color count and blending), but either you missed the couple times I posted it, or got tired of analyzing the stuff. (though you didn't comment one way or another) Plus some others including rebel assault, nova storm, and dune.

but see here:
http://sega-16.com/forum/showpost.ph...8&postcount=77
http://sega-16.com/forum/showpost.ph...4&postcount=70

Oh, I thought I had commented on those (but didn't post pics). If not, I'll check them out.

[kool kitty89]

It isn't full frame Buffer animation.

How do you know for sure???

Anyway, that's definitely not the case for Flashback, that's all prerendered animation. (and I don't see why Heart of the Alien wouldn't be either)

[Team Andromeda]

How do you know for sure???

Anyway, that's definitely not the case for Flashback, that's all prerendered animation. (and I don't see why Heart of the Alien wouldn't be either)

I meant it isn't buffer animation in the style like that used for Chuck Rock 2 or Popful Mail. Another World is also included on the HOTA disc and its intro is just the same . I must say the CD music adds massively to the game Just adds so much to the games atmosphere.

By Compassion Flashback on the Mega CD was poor, didn't like the new FMV intro or the new music

[kool kitty89]

I meant it isn't buffer animation in the style like that used for Chuck Rock 2 or Popful Mail. Another World is also included on the HOTA disc and its intro is just the same . I must say the CD music adds massively to the game Just adds so much to the games atmosphere.

By Compassion Flashback on the Mega CD was poor, didn't like the new FMV intro or the new music

I wasn't talking about Flashback on the MCD but the DOS/MD/SNES/Amiga/etc versions, and I was talking about the entire game (cutscenes and gameplay) for both cases.

[Team Andromeda]

I wasn't talking about Flashback on the MCD but the DOS/MD/SNES/Amiga/etc versions, and I was talking about the entire game (cutscenes and gameplay) for both cases.

If ones thinks like that, then most games used buffer animation, or just played back the frames of animation. I can't think of many if any 16 bit games that were animated in real time so to speak .

You know I couldn't really careless if it was motion captured , rotoscoped animation, or pre animated by hand . The likes of POP and Another world , Aladdin just looked amazing at the time, has did the likes of Metal Slug

[kool kitty89]

I decided to go ahead and post my old Rebel Assault comparison videos from the 3DO (S-Video) and Sega CD (32X Composite) versions. I'm not sure how it happened but half of my old videos won't play in Divx web player, but they're still higher quality than Youtube Video.

Holy crap, the 3DO version looks like the PC... terrible, terrible artifacting. Honestly, the Sega CD doesn't look THAT much worse by comparison, though I bet it would be more extreme in some later sections. (mos eisley, Yavin canyon, and deathstar surface stages in particular)

I really don't understand why the game was done that way. The obvious reason would be that it stuck to 1x CD-ROM speed (otherwise a 2x drive would be required on PC and 2 discs) and also required a large screen size due to the panning. But that wouldn't explain the artifacting in some of the cutscenes where the overscan (so to speak) video wouldn't have been used.

A smaller screen size would have been much preferable IMO. (or multiple discs with 2x data rate -hell, they could have even had a deluxe PC release for 2x speed)
I wonder what codec was used, I'd have assumed cinepak, but it reall shows a lot more artifacting than contemporary stuff. (in fact the 3DO/PC version's artifacted sections look worse than better FMV on the Sega CD IMO)
The tearing and other issues on the Sega CD are separate from the compression problems though.

This playthough seems to be blurred enough to hide the artifacting seen in the PC/3DO/Mac to the extent that I thought it might actually be from an improved version:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsmYb...ext=1&index=35

If ones thinks like that, then most games used buffer animation, or just played back the frames of animation. I can't think of many if any 16 bit games that were animated in real time so to speak .

You know I couldn't really careless if it was motion captured , rotoscoped animation, or pre animated by hand . The likes of POP and Another world , Aladdin just looked amazing at the time, has did the likes of Metal Slug

No, Another World is totally different, it uses realtime rasterization of polygon/vector graphics for its animation (3DO uses prerendered backgrounds though).

That was done to allow lots of animation in limited memory. (and some actual 3D effects for some cinema)

That's the difference, and I think that game is unique for its time. (of of course Flash renders rather like that with vector graphics drawn in realtime and then there's all the 2.5D polygonal sidescrollers too)

The only rendering other such games would use (like flashback) is sprite/BG scrolling/positioning, or blitting on computers. (including the original Amiga version)

[sheath]

If I had taken the 3DO footage from Composite the comparison would have been more 1:1. Even the 32X's Composite is blurring things significantly, I'd bet if we looked at those scenes that were badly artifacting in the 3DO game in Kega we would see the same places are messed up. It's going to be based on the same footage at least (it looks like they clipped the left and right sides though).

The Sega CD game was a very good conversion. I had played the PC version at friend's houses extensively and heavily anticipated it on Sega CD. When it came out, and reviewers panned it, I could not understand why. It is in every way like the PC game with toned down/different colors, and the space scenes look almost identical. Did somebody say there were missing levels?

-edit-

This thread made me buy Novastorm, twice. Thanks a bunch.

[kool kitty89]

If I had taken the 3DO footage from Composite the comparison would have been more 1:1. Even the 32X's Composite is blurring things significantly, I'd bet if we looked at those scenes that were badly artifacting in the 3DO game in Kega we would see the same places are messed up. It's going to be based on the same footage at least (it looks like they clipped the left and right sides though).

I think it's the youtube compression on top of that (with higher capture resolution to boot) that really skews things, plus the antialising that YT applies to a lot of stuff filtering it on top of the new artifacts skewing the original artifacts.
Some other YT videos lack the added artifacting and filtering and show it a lot more clearly for the PC or MAC versions, and definitely the Sega CD as with this one, which looks like an emulator capture:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6yOX2vmxgY

And that tearing isn't an emulator (VSYNC) or capture issue, it's there regardless (with or without vsync enabled -which wouldn't matter anyway for a display at 60 Hz for NTSC games), but less visible on a CRT SDTV due to the high persistence phoshor. (on a CRT VGA monitor it should be very visible, as is tearing in PC games -possibly on some HDTVs too, at least with good 240p support)

The Sega CD game was a very good conversion. I had played the PC version at friend's houses extensively and heavily anticipated it on Sega CD. When it came out, and reviewers panned it, I could not understand why. It is in every way like the PC game with toned down/different colors, and the space scenes look almost identical. Did somebody say there were missing levels?

It takes a hit, and more of one than it should really (again I think, given the limitations of the PC version, a really well optimized port with trade-offs in screen size to facilitate less artifacting and no tearing, plus sprite/overlay with more optimized colors on the streaming layer could have been better than the PC game in some respects, other FMV on the CD was better than Rebel Assault on the PC/3DO, let alone MCD port)

Again, it looks unnecessarily ugly to me, though from that one time I played the Mac version, I remember it lookign and sounding better. (especially the cutscenes which used a technique with every other scanline left blank iirc)


I really wonder what codec the PC version used, though it could easily have been an early Cinepak or Indeo codec (Cinemap is almost certianly what's used on the 3DO and Mac) and the quality problems are due to the large screen size and framerate used. (remember there's the overscan scrolling effect, so the sreaming window is closer to 2x the visible resolution, but again, that would explain the artifacting in the cutscenes where the resolution is most definitely in the range of other Streaming video which looked far better on the MCD let alone PC)

This thread made me buy Novastorm, twice. Thanks a bunch.

What, you got the Sega CD version then? (did you only have the 3DO version before?)

I actually accidentally ended up with 2 PC copies of the game as I hadn't realized we already had the game until after I bought another copy off amazon.

I didn't bother buying another copy for the Sega CD, but just downloaded it. (same for rebel assault which I ended up with 3 copies for for some reason, 1 DOS, and 2 MAC discs and the only Mac I own -a Power Book 5300, which should run the game- has no CD Drive and I'm not shelling out for an external mac drive unless I come by one cheap)

I'd be interested in confirming that the US version has the video skipping issues and it's not just the ROMs available online. (I'm almost positive those are straight dumps, so unless there are multiple versions released, it would be a problem with the original too, and I recall a recording off real hardware on YT that shows the same problem) The 3DO version and PAL MCD versions don't seem to suffer from that. (the 3DO version also seems to be the only one to share the same plot with the MCD game, and the intro is similar though the MCD port edited it a bit with added video clips replacing some scenes showing the meeting hall int he 3DO version)
Or maybe the FM Towns version (named Scavenger 4 iirc), which also seems to be the only version to share similar music and sfx to the MCD game. (which makes a lot of sense given both have the same sound chips and realtime synth would put less hurt on video quality than streaming -not sure if the MCD or FM Towns bothered with the YM2612 though, or if only the Ricoh chip was used -it sounds like the latter in all the MCD tracks I've heard, so not like Silpheed's heavy use of FM and even some PSG along with the Ricoh sound chip)

[sheath]

I bought Novastorm for 3DO and Sega CD today. Every CDR I have every used on real hardware has screwed up in some way, from longer load times to graphical/audio glitches and lock ups. I won't jeopardize my hardware unless I just absolutely have to. In the case of Novastorm, $18 for both means I don't have to.

In the case of Rebel Assault, I can confirm that there is tearing in the video during the cutscenes and some of the gameplay scenes.

[kool kitty89]

Some 3DOs (especially FZ1 it seems) are really sensitive and require high quality CDRs (and fixed burning speed with a good utility, of course -so probably not nero).
Some Sega CDs are rather sensitive too, and some games in particular like Silpheed. (I think that silpheed might use the higher bitrate mode 2 data format without error correction -it also requires perfect sync to be enabled in emulators) FMV stuff in general tends to be finicky and I think a fair amount uses mode 2 data like that. (I'm almost positive Rebel Assault is not among those given it's a PC port and almsot certianly uses standard PC mode 1 CD-ROM data)

I need to get around to burning a replacement for my Silpheed disc. (freezes part way through stage 3)

[QuickSciFi]

So, I'm rather new to the Sega CD myself; but it seems pretty much established that the 3DO was the king of FMV then. My friend sandamtod from youtube may attest to that. Still...

...what are the best FMVs on the Sega CD?

They've always felt like 90s pre-theme-park rides to me. And that's awesome.

P.S.> You have to have been to Disney World or Universal Studios to get my point on this one.

[kool kitty89]

I forgot to mention it's Chapter 7: Imperial Probe Droids (on Hoth) that the Sega CD version is missing for some reason. The preceding cutscene is modified to match that and refers to the walkers rather than probes. (and you go straight to the Imperial Walkers which becomes Mission 7 on the Sega CD and later missions are correspondingly renumbered)

So, I'm rather new to the Sega CD myself; but it seems pretty much established that the 3DO was the king of FMV then. My friend sandamtod from youtube may attest to that. Still...

IDK, of the consoles in the 1992-1994 period, the 3DO's video quality wasn't really better than the CD32 from what I recall (both being powerful enough for cinepak and generally using 256 color cinepak I think, with at least some games using 2x data rate), and of course there's PCs and Macs if you include computers. (the FM Towns had a few too I think, not sure about the Amiga)

They've always felt like 90s pre-theme-park rides to me. And that's awesome.

My premise was the actual video playback quality regardless of actual content.
The content is very much up to personal opinion (though so is video playback quality to some extent), but I'm rather partial to some games with their charm of the time, though I couldn't really get into Night Trap (the control is a bit frustrating mainly, I like the gameplay actually, and I'd probably prefer the PC version with mouse support -I loved the flash game spoof based on it).
When I discovered Rebel assault in the early 2000s (for the PC/MAC) I was rather excited, but I honestly hadn't expected the type of game it turned out to be: growing up with the X-WIng series and seeing the cover art and description, I'd thought I'd missed a 90s PC gem of a space combat game... but as it turned out I was a bit disappointed when I finally got it working. I actually don't remember it being all that ugly, jut not that fun to play, and the tedium of the first mission didn't help any. It seems like some later stages might be more fun, but I've never been able to get into it... odd since I rather like rail shooters in general, though not as much as free roaming combat/sim/shooters, but still like both a lot, and I did enjoy some of the space sections a bit more, but as far as Star Wars games go, I even liek the Super Star Wars series more, in spite of the fact that I'm not very adept at 2D platform games and those tend to be pretty tough games -only got far in ROTJ, X-Wing is my cup of tea though. (I still haven't finished it though )

Actually I haven't been able to really enjoy Star Wars Arcade on the 32x either for some reason. It's OK, but something about it rubs me the wrong way: the control, the general feel of it, I'm not sure. I love Shadow Squadron though, simpler than most PC space sims, but fun and very playable. (and the simplisity gives it more of an arcade feel) The Rogue Squadron games are great, though still not as fun for me as real space sims. (I actually liked RS III more than most oddly enough, definitely in part due to the multiplayer)

The 3DO version or Rebel Assault seems to look identical to the PC version too.

[sheath]

Just got Novastorm for 3DO and Sega CD in. They have similar graphics and backgrounds but they might as well be two different games.

For one, Novastorm on 3DO allows shooting to the left right and center (digital) by turning your ship while firing. The Sega CD version just fires straight in front of the ship and requires moving the ship in front of the target to aim. I am more familiar with the later than the former. I actually can hardly shoot anything while moving in the 3DO version so far.

Both version also have totally different bosses, even though the rest of the FMV seems similar. The first level boss in the Sega CD game is a huge spinning spiked orb, looks like some of those bouncing ball light up things for kids. The 3DO boss is just a ship. I will have to play them both significantly more to compile any lists of differences.

Lastly, the Sega CD game is more than just posterized, it's highly stylized in extremely low color. I don't see a whole lot of typical Sega CD graininess or dithering. But I also primarily see the colors black and red, with a little bit of yellow mixed in. All in all, I love this type of game and miss the genre sorely, so I will be playing both versions a great deal more before making any comparison videos.

[kool kitty89]

It's posterized with optimized colors for certain tings (especially the terrain), leaving the sky and soem other areas a bit ugly.
I think I'd have preferred a bit more dithering to be honest, taseful and not a ton, but a fair bit more, especially good error diffusion dithering like floyd steinberg, though the stuff a lot of FMV uses is better than straight bayer dithering. (I've been through this already)


It sounds like there are a bunch of different versions, the PC/PSX version has a totally different powerup system and sends you to checkpoints when you die, plus no charge shot, though the bosses are generally the same. Not sure about Scavenger 4 on the FM Towns, but I think it's very close to the MCD version. (the PSX/PC version has a totally different intro and plot: less original or interesting IMO)