Quantcast

Page 10 of 12 FirstFirst ... 6789101112 LastLast
Results 136 to 150 of 167

Thread: Saturn's Sound System (and advanced console sound hardware in general)

  1. #136
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    42
    Posts
    13,313
    Rep Power
    130

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TmEE View Post
    EDIT: unrelated, but the article brought in a really naiss example using light. I can see light from remote controls that do not have tinted IR LEDs in a dark room :P
    Must study Tiido, write paper. *rubs hands greedily*
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

  2. #137
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,112
    Rep Power
    29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by TmEE View Post
    That article is great but it fails to mention one thing : your modern sound card (ever since AC97) is locked to one particular sample rate (always a multiple of 48KHz) and when you play any sample that has differing rate from that one native rate you will have a dirty resample process going to happen and it severly skews the results. 48KHz can and usually does sound noticably different from 96KHz on most modern sound cards...
    What makes it irrelevant is that 99.9% of all modern speakers have a frequency range topping at 20khz, so they can't play back anything that uses a higher frequency rate than CD Audio to begin with.

    Is Azalia HD still affected by the 48khz lock by the way? I know that Soundblasters were hard locked to it ever since the Live, and AC97 is only locked onto it if you use its own internal DAC - but not if you use digital out to a receiver.

  3. #138
    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Age
    30
    Posts
    9,725
    Rep Power
    63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    The PSX was designed for 44kHz samples, so even though they're compressed, they sound much better than compressed 16kHz samples like on the SNES.

    I think the "worst" you see for sample rates on the PSX is 22kHz.
    For games making heavy use of in-game speech/SFX where streaming is impractical (or limited), or for games trying to include lots of speech within few CDs (or just one) I'd imagine there were still cases using considerably less than 22 kHz . . . probably not super common though.

    I know there were still some late 90s multimedia-intensive games that settled for some pretty poor quality samples overall. I tried out The Elder Scrolls Adventures: Regduard a couple months back and it's got a LOT of quite low quality speech samples and some relatively low quality streaming music or ambient sounds in some areas (more tolerable sounding music typically, though). It's also not just low quality, but relatively poorly preprocessed . . . not well filtered or optimized (and no interpolation), and really straining with some high frequency stuff that bleeds through the filtering in old Sound Blaster cards. (or at least the SB-16 Apolloboy was using at the time)
    That's a very dialog intensive game though, and I assume it's just using 4-bit ADPCM. With the RAM and HDD space typical of 1998 PC games, I assume it's more a restriction of actual CD-ROM space they were willing to use. (still, it's a 2 disc game) Maybe it's just 8-bit PCM at low sample rates. (seems kind of odd they'd resort to that given the circumstances though . . . I could see uncompressed 8-bit PCM if they could afford the bitrates to allow that at decent quality -or ulaw for that matter- but that's definitely not the case here -and with the sort of CPU resource required for that game -or 1998 games in general, a few ADPCM streams would seem like a drop in the bucket to deal with)

    Then again, even in some more extreme cases, you'd have the filtering and interpolation of the PSX's SPU to mask poorly preprocessed stuff. (optimized formatting and preprocessing really seem to be a huge issue for quality in general, including a lot of really strained sounding samples that seem to assume heavy filtering on the output to mask that . . . or developers simply didn't care -but given there's a ton of old DOS games with samples that sound like they fit much better with typical early 90s Sound Blaster filtering, and really rough without filtering, I'd assume many were relying on external filtering as such)
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

  4. #139
    Mastering your Systems Shining Hero TmEE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Estonia, Rapla City
    Age
    30
    Posts
    10,092
    Rep Power
    110

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    What makes it irrelevant is that 99.9% of all modern speakers have a frequency range topping at 20khz, so they can't play back anything that uses a higher frequency rate than CD Audio to begin with.

    Is Azalia HD still affected by the 48khz lock by the way? I know that Soundblasters were hard locked to it ever since the Live, and AC97 is only locked onto it if you use its own internal DAC - but not if you use digital out to a receiver.
    The effects of this dirty resampling are heard well into audible range. AC97 resamples even the digital stuff in many cases (not always), direct loopback from SPDIF input to SPDIF output in usually left untouched (you have to look at datasheets of the chips to know if that happens or not).
    HD Audio / Azalia is is a bit more flexible, there's 48, 96 and 192KHz native rates, all inbetweens are resampled though, most else is same as AC97. 48 and 96 are not always present though. Again datasheets help to let you know what the hardware does, but there's also a huge software layer involved. Sound Blasters have software based noise reduction in them for example, very clearly seen in spectrograms of recordings, also resampling artifacts too.
    Death To MP3, :3
    Mida sa loed ? Nagunii aru ei saa "Gnirts test is a shit" New and growing website of total jawusumness !
    If any of my images in my posts no longer work you can find them in "FileDen Dump" on my site ^

  5. #140
    Wildside Expert
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Posts
    212
    Rep Power
    10

    Default

    I have been reading through rougly 60% of this thread trying to find definite answers to my questions:

    1. Can Playstation 1 sound hardware generate sound without any external sound data? Meaning: can it for instance produce 3 channel PSG music to be played during a real PSX game without any sort of externally generated sound data?

    2. Can Saturn do that?


    Thank you!

  6. #141
    Hero of Algol
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    7,703
    Rep Power
    174

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    So, what's the deal with the Saturn versions sounding inferior? Is it less capable of streaming audio at good sampling rates or something like that?
    Let's see what Yuzo has to say about that:
    "Kikizo: What was working with the Saturn like? It's notorious for being a difficult system.

    Koshiro: Oh, of course. We made Vatlva and Thor for the system. Vatlva was CD redbook audio, but Thor... it was a lot more difficult. The sound in the game is orchestral, and the sound memory was also limited to 512KB. It's bigger than that of the SFC, but for orchestral-style music, its limitations are very strict. It's tough to fit all of the orchestral instrument samples you need into that space. You didn't need the sort of programming skills you did for the SFC and Megadrive, though - you just used a MIDI input sequencer. I used a Mac program called Vision for Thor's sound. Still, the memory limitation was the biggest issue to work around.

    Kikizo: The PlayStation was much easier, right?

    Koshiro: Yes, it was much better. The memory size for sound was the same, but the compression algorithms were much better than the Saturn. It used the same compression system as their minidiscs did at the time. It allowed us to fit more and better quality music and sound into smaller space."
    http://archive.videogamesdaily.com/f...v_oct05_p2.asp

  7. #142
    Hero of Algol
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    7,703
    Rep Power
    174

    Default

    I also found what seems to be a copy-paste text version of the "Playstation Sound Artist" manual in an old thread at assemblergames (tons of text there):

    "The PlayStation sound artist board (DTL-H700, hereinafter referred to as the PlayStation
    sound board) and the PlayStation sound artist tool (DTL-S710, hereinafter referred to as the
    PlayStation sound tool) are applications executed on Apple Macintosh. They are tools for
    creating sound data for the PlayStation unit. Using the tools along with existing sound tools
    enables music creation for the PlayStation unit."

    "The PlayStation sound tool supports the following sound data formats.
    * SMF: Standard MIDI file (Format 1)
    * AIFF: 16-bit audio interchange file format (AIFF)
    * SDII: SoundDesignerII file format


    The PlayStation sound tool supports the following sound formats for the PlayStation unit.
    * SEQ: PlayStation sound sequence format
    * VAG: PlayStation waveform format
    * VAB: PlayStation wave bank format
    * DA: PlayStation CD-DA format
    * XA: PlayStation CD-ROM XA audio channel format
    The PlayStation sound tool also supports the following sound formats for the
    PlayStation unit.
    * SEP: PlayStation sound sequence chuck format
    * VH: PlayStation wave bank header format
    * VB: PlayStation wave bank body format
    The XA format supported by RAW2XA is based on the following specifications.
    • CD-ROM XA"

    http://www.assemblergames.com/forums...-DTL-S710-docs


    Some additional info on how it worked can be found here at Chapter 11: CD/Streaming Library and Chapter 16: Basic Sound Library of the Playstation's "Run-Time Library Overview":
    http://read.pudn.com/downloads25/sou...020/LIBOVR.PDF
    Last edited by Barone; 02-08-2014 at 03:28 AM.

  8. #143
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,112
    Rep Power
    29

    Default

    It was already known that the Saturn SCSP's biggest disadvantage is lack of memory space, exacerbated by lack of hardware compression support. It could play anything that the 68k or the SH2s could decode, though (adpcm, later ADX).

  9. #144
    Hero of Algol
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Posts
    7,703
    Rep Power
    174

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    It was already known that the Saturn SCSP's biggest disadvantage is lack of memory space, exacerbated by lack of hardware compression support.
    A lot of people don't want to believe it though; so maybe after reading God's Yuzo's words they'll admit it.

  10. #145
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Dallas, Texas
    Posts
    8,468
    Rep Power
    120

    Default

    I used to think that the music in Street Fighter Alpha 2 (Saturn) was being played from the CD, until I opened the CD lid on the Saturn and noticed that the music was still playing. It sounded pretty good to me.


    Errr, maybe not. I just tried it and the Saturn goes to the menu screen. I could have sworn there was a Saturn title that kept playing music when I opened the lid. Maybe I'm thinking of the Dreamcast.
    Last edited by gamevet; 02-09-2014 at 02:00 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  11. #146
    ESWAT Veteran Da_Shocker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Cashville,TN
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,244
    Rep Power
    68

    Default

    Ya'll know that the 4MB ram cart eliminates the cant play compression issues.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltor View Post
    Japan on the other hand is in real danger, if Japanese men don't start liking to play with their woman, more then them selves, experts calculated the Japanese will be extinct within 300 years.

  12. #147
    So's your old man! Raging in the Streets zetastrike's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Durham, NC
    Posts
    3,712
    Rep Power
    88

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    Ya'll know that the 4MB ram cart eliminates the cant play compression issues.
    I thought the carts were only for VRAM
    Quote Originally Posted by A Black Falcon
    Nope. Bloodlines is the problem, not me. I have no trouble with Super Castlevania IV (SNES) and Dracula X: Rondo of Blood (TCD), and have finished both games. Both of those are outstanding games, among the best platformers of the generation. In comparison Bloodlines is third or fourth tier.

    No, it's unbiased analysis. The only fanboyism is people who claim that Hyperstone Heist and Bloodlines are actually as good as their SNES counterparts.
    My Collection: http://vgcollect.com/zetastrike

  13. #148
    ESWAT Veteran Da_Shocker's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    Cashville,TN
    Age
    38
    Posts
    5,244
    Rep Power
    68

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by zetastrike View Post
    I thought the carts were only for VRAM
    It's actually general purpose really. One thing that seems to get overlooked with these ports is that the voices are clear an no longer have that trademark Saturn muffled effect.
    Quote Originally Posted by Zoltor View Post
    Japan on the other hand is in real danger, if Japanese men don't start liking to play with their woman, more then them selves, experts calculated the Japanese will be extinct within 300 years.

  14. #149
    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    6,744
    Rep Power
    77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Da_Shocker View Post
    Ya'll know that the 4MB ram cart eliminates the cant play compression issues.
    No, it doesn't. All it allows is for more space for decompressed samples, but they would still need to be DMA'd into sound ram before they could be played. A better way to handle compressed samples would be have the Slave SH2 decompress the samples on the fly into a buffer that would be DMA'd into sound ram in a double-buffered manner. While the 68000 could be used for decompression, the SH2 is better suited for the task. My tests on the 32X shows what could be possible... save a low bitrate OGG into that ram cart, then play it in real-time using the Slave SH2. That would leave all the sound ram for game sounds. You could also load a MOD/XM into the ram cart and play it via the Slave SH2. Again, the sound ram is free for game sounds.

  15. #150
    Master of Shinobi
    Join Date
    Sep 2012
    Posts
    1,112
    Rep Power
    29

    Default

    I believe later Saturn games used ADX audio just like that.

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •