Why SEGA let Yuji Naka Get Away from SONIC

[JRedmond3]

Sonic games started to go downhill before the death of hardware Sega. Sonic 3D Blast is a bust, Sonic Adventure and those retarded adventure field bust... I mean it was like they didn't play any of the 6 great Gen/CD games.

You can't really count 3D Blast since it was a 3rd party game and more or less just made to keep the Genesis on life support and later ported to the Saturn to try and calm the masses.

I liked Sonic Adventure, I even enjoyed the Adventure Fields. They were flawed, sure, but it was nice to have an open area where you could run at full speed. Instead of making the levels narrow and racetrack like there should have been more levels that were wide open.

The biggest problem with 3D Sonic games has been that instead of going with what worked and was fun, they've focused on things no one liked and added even more unnecessary elements. Like from Sonic Adventure 1 to 2, they nixed Tails' levels, which were the 2nd best part of the game. And instead of getting rid of the Emerald Hunts, they made them 1/3 of the game.

[Christuserloeser]

^ Yeah, both Spinball and 3D Blast: Flickies Island (or whatever its called) were the first Sonic games not designed by Sonic Team but by American and European teams.

That's not the impression I get generally. The press and rather a lot of Sonic fans seem to look up to him as the father of Sonic, an image he himself has promoted. That's why the guy annoys me a bit. Hirokazu Yasuhara, Masaharu Yoshii, Naoto Ohshima, who are they?

But then the press is to blame. Not the guy. He was a coder. A programmer. He wrote the game code and tools, he did not draw the graphics or do the game design itself (although he most likely was deeply involved in the design of each game he programmed).

Edit: Okay, he also acted as project leader or producer for many games, incl. Phantasy Star II, Sonic 3, Sonic & Knuckles, Sonic Jam, etc.

[Silanda]

But then the press is to blame. Not the guy. He was a coder. A programmer. He wrote the game code and tools, he did not draw the graphics or do the game design itself (although he most likely was deeply involved in the design of each game he programmed).

If it was simply the case that the press was attributing Sonic to him then that would be true, but he has done it himself. In interviews Naka has called himself the father of Sonic a number of times, and he never seems to play that image down (I wonder if the alleged friction between Naka and Yasuhara has anything to do with this).

[Christuserloeser]

Can you provide me with one single interview where did claim he'd be "the father of Sonic" or even something similar ?

[Silanda]

Can you provide me with one single interview where did claim he'd be "the father of Sonic" or even something similar ?

http://uk.wii.ign.com/articles/950/950918p1.html

[Christuserloeser]

Okay, you win.

Still, he was part of the team that created the first Sonic so it kinda makes sense that he considers himself to be one of the fathers of Sonic. I just doubt that he means it as literally as you seem to understand it. Might even be lost in translation.

In dubio pro reo. I just doubt that he'd be so full of himself that he'd not acknowledge the input of other team members - like Rieko Kodama, the lead designer of Phantasy Star I and II, both of which they've been working on together (same for Sonic 1 and 2 btw) before she became director and got her own team and designed Phantasy Star IV.

And I doubt he forgot that Sonic was designed by Naoto Ohshima nor would I think that he tries to take credit for it.

If people don't want to know who created the character then there's only so much you can do.

Probably didn't help that Naka and the rest of Sonic Team worked in the US on Sonic 2 on invitation by Mark Czerny (and thus got the opportunity to talk to the Western gaming press), while Ohshima remained in Japan as the director of the team working on Sonic CD.


Actually, now that I think about it, I heard that Naka actually did design Sonic the game, in that he came up with the concept of "Mario in Fast Forward". He just needed someone to come up with a character that could play the role of Mario.

But then again I also heard that Oshima had the idea of a super fast hedgehog and he just needed a team of talented coders to program the game, so they introduced him to Naka, "the only one who could code a game engine fast enough".

[Da_Shocker]

Ugh there hasn't been a good Sonic game since SA and there hasn't been a great one since his Genesis days. It seems IMO as to why Sega keeps churning out crappy Sonic games is because they have been the only Sonic games that consistently sale well. Anything else may or may not sale. I mean look at how much Sega invested in Shenmue and look at the returns from that endeavor. I highly doubt they even broke even with that. Nintendo on the other hand can release Mario when they feel like it as they have other IP that sale a shit load of copies worldwide.

[Christuserloeser]

I agree in regards to Shenmue: No way they did break even with that one. But they used the game engine in Yakuza and that sold pretty well, at least in Japan.

I think Sega got a billion of IPs that would sell well.

The few brands they tried to revive had good reasons why they didn't sell.

A game like Panzer Dragoon Orta didn't sell because it was an Xbox 1 exclusive at a time when the console was brandnew and probably less than a few thousand people owned one.

Similar goes for Toejam & Earl. Dreamcast version was pretty much done, just like with Orta, then heavily reworked and sold out to Microsoft as part of the Shenmue 2/Panzer Dragoon Orta/etc. deal and thrown out there as an early Xbox title when maybe five people had one. What a waste.

Golden Axe: Beast Rider didn't sell because ...well it had nothing to do with the original series. Might as well have called it Altered Beast Rider or whatever. Or better yet: Just be honest and call it Beast Rider and that's it. There was zero connection to Golden Axe in the first place. They just tried to cash in on the name.

Thunder Force VI didn't sell well because they didn't even try to give it a worldwide release.


It seems the only thing Sega of America, Sega of Europe and Sega of Japan seem to agree on is Sonic.

[Xeniczone]

^ Yeah, both Spinball and 3D Blast: Flickies Island (or whatever its called) were the first Sonic games not designed by Sonic Team but by American and European teams.

Sonic 2 and I think Sonic 3 was design by an American Team, STI. I thought that Sonic 1 was the only Sonic genesis game to be designed by Sonic Team.

I agree in regards to Shenmue: No way they did break even with that one. But they used the game engine in Yakuza and that sold pretty well, at least in Japan.

I think Sega got a billion of IPs that would sell well.

The few brands they tried to revive had good reasons why they didn't sell.

A game like Panzer Dragoon Orta didn't sell because it was an Xbox 1 exclusive at a time when the console was brandnew and probably less than a few thousand people owned one.

Similar goes for Toejam & Earl. Dreamcast version was pretty much done, just like with Orta, then heavily reworked and sold out to Microsoft as part of the Shenmue 2/Panzer Dragoon Orta/etc. deal and thrown out there as an early Xbox title when maybe five people had one. What a waste.

Golden Axe: Beast Rider didn't sell because ...well it had nothing to do with the original series. Might as well have called it Altered Beast Rider or whatever. Or better yet: Just be honest and call it Beast Rider and that's it. There was zero connection to Golden Axe in the first place. They just tried to cash in on the name.

Thunder Force VI didn't sell well because they didn't even try to give it a worldwide release.


It seems the only thing Sega of America, Sega of Europe and Sega of Japan seem to agree on is Sonic.

I agree with this, these game didn't sell well simply because the original xBox never sold well. Even later in its life it start to pick up but never truly sold all that well. This is probably the first Generation of game console that one or two single consoles don't dominate the over all of them.

Playstation and Playstation 2 cleared the floor of any competition in those generations. SNES and Genesis cleaned out any competition in the 16bit era, same for generations before it. NES pretty much dominated the 8bit era, and Atari 2600 before it. Though I can't really say who dominated the first generation.

[kool kitty89]

Because dark emo omg whats my past who am i better ride a bike and shoot a gun Sonic is just..
well lets just say it would only appeal to small children, who can't see pas the gun.

Heh, I rather liked Shadow in SA2... not so much in Heroes, though OK again in Shadow the Hedgehog (the voice acting was never as good as SA2 though).

I was thinking Shadow the hedgehog was a pretty mediocre game goign by memory, but a few weeks ago my brother and I picked it up again and I realized it's a damn good 3D platformer with 3rd person shooter aspect in it, more than decent, though not SA or SA2 quality. The bug with falling off the edge with the homing attack is notable, but I'd say it's at least 80% the game that SA or SA2 are. (and that matched what IGN socred i relative to the GC ports of SA and SA2 -their Dreamcast bias shows hugely on the scores for the DC originals of those games though )

If you're a 3D platformer and/or 3rd person shooter fan (ie MDK), I'd definitely try it out.

Not really: undesirable, yes, unprofessional, no. If you are employed by a company to program for them, in most circumstances you do not own your work. You have no say (unless contractually stipulated) over how your work is used. They can do whatever they like with it and it is not unprofessional for them to do so. It might be a courtesy to ask the programmer their opinion but they are in no way obliged to.

If things went down as has been claimed then Naka was quite lucky; a lot of companies, especially western ones, would have told him to pack his bags when he threatened to quit. So called big names in Japanese companies seem to be cut a lot more slack than their western equivalents.

True, but again (as in my previous post) it's really a non-issue as the Nights engine probably would have sucked for a 3D Sonic game anyway.

They'd have been much better off teaming up with Travelers' Tales given what they managed with Sonic R. (it needs some work, but it seems to have huge potential for a 3D sonic platformer)
Then there's ray casting as an option for a good fast sonic game too. (robo blast)
As it is, both The Sonic R engine and ray casting seem like better options than Nights or that really limited fish-eye engine used on the canceled PC exclusive, or the early Saturn version of Sonic adventure if Sonic World in Jam is any indication -though better than Nights or the Fish-Eye engine at least. (for Nights, you have the X-Treme prototype and the Sonic part of Christmas Nights)
That fish-eye thing really seemed like an enhanced version of BUG! to be honest.
As it was, SoJ eventually started work on Sonic Adventure for the Saturn, but rather late on, and like Shenmue, it got moved over to the DC.
SoJ really should have been pushing a 3D platform game as early as they could though: be it sonic themed or not. (Sonic would be the natural choice though)
At least they got that right on the Dreamcast.

Well, Moore was the guy who cancelled Dreamcast, then sold Shenmue 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta & co. to Microsoft, only to join them to oversee the Xbox launch. I am not surprised.

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...733#post218733

He didn't sell those games to MS, Sega published them for the Xbox, unless I'm gravely mistaken: Moore thought the Xbox was going to sweep the market and it would be in Sega's (and his own) interests to push for them as a 3rd party.
Honestly, Sega shouldn't have done that at all: if they were adamant at switching to a 3rd party publisher, they should have expanded their PC market (which didn't really happen), not cancel the DC, but pull back DC specific spending (keeping it as a viable publishing platform and a strongly routed one on the market already -for continued 3rd party licensing as well -and hardware sales), and more gradually transition into 3rd party console publishing. (probably Xbox and GC before going over to Sony -both because of badd blood with Sony and because of ease of cross-platform development for PC/DC/Xbox/GC over the PS2 -as a mass-market developer, they'd eventually have to start going with the PS2 too though)

We don't know the full details on the cancellation of the DC either: all of Moore's interviews point to the fact that it came down to him to handel the discontinuation and related tasks, NOT that it was his decision alone whether to halt the DC or not. In Japan the DC was floundering and my some accounts it was not doing much better in Europe (not sure about that one), though it was doing well in the US, but that would have meant they would be mainly targeting North America as their mainstream market. (I don't really see the problem with that though)

It wouldn't have been until 2002 or so that it would have been clear if the DC would have been viable in the long term or not. (if it was competitive with the GC and Xbox -let alone ahead in market share in some regions, that should have been enough)

Sonic games started to go downhill before the death of hardware Sega. Sonic 3D Blast is a bust, Sonic Adventure and those retarded adventure field bust... I mean it was like they didn't play any of the 6 great Gen/CD games.

3D blast was pretty good for what it was: obviously not going to cater to the 2D sidescroller Sonic fans, but I like it for what it is for sure. (of course, it was a 2nd/3rd party game and not in-house other than the music)

A shame they didn't have that out in 1994 though, that would have been rather significant against DKC in terms of graphics. (even in '95)

Sonic Adventure and Sonic Adventure 2 are amazing 3D platformers: though the adventure field aspect (and chao gardens) are a bit more hit-and miss, it really depends. I'm in the middle: I like the adventure/exploration, but aldo like the linear play of Sonic Adventure 2. I have other friends who are split though: either preferring SA2 by far, or SA1 (usually for adventure field).
The cutscene animation and voice acting are much better in SA2 regardless though. (I prefer the general level design, art direction, music, graphics, and story in SA2 as well -and especially the multiplayer feature)

I liked Sonic Adventure, I even enjoyed the Adventure Fields. They were flawed, sure, but it was nice to have an open area where you could run at full speed. Instead of making the levels narrow and racetrack like there should have been more levels that were wide open.

You mean more like the 3D Mario games (or Croc, Spyro, etc -the early Crash games were a bit linear and narrow iirc) with large levels to explore? (I'm not sure they'd have had the same feel of speed as the style they used in the SA games)
And hell, Mario Sunshine expanded the overworld significantly more in line with the Adventure Field stuff compared to what Mario 64 had, though that was rather like it too, albeit simpler. (of course, you could draw some parallels to the overworld map in Mario Bros 3 or SMW)

The biggest problem with 3D Sonic games has been that instead of going with what worked and was fun, they've focused on things no one liked and added even more unnecessary elements. Like from Sonic Adventure 1 to 2, they nixed Tails' levels, which were the 2nd best part of the game. And instead of getting rid of the Emerald Hunts, they made them 1/3 of the game.

I was more disapointed that with Tales (as the mech), it was just teasing you for a SHMUP level (preferable more numerous and detailed than the one in SA1), but you got nothing.

[Christuserloeser]

Sonic 2 and I think Sonic 3 was design by an American Team, STI. I thought that Sonic 1 was the only Sonic genesis game to be designed by Sonic Team.

Sonic 1, 2, 3, &K, Knuckles Chaotix, all were designed by Sonic Team with Naka being a recurring major player in various different constellations of the team (i.e. only Sonic 1 & 2 had Rieko Kodama doing design work before she left to become director of Phantasy Star IV, leading her own team).
Sonic CD were designed by a different team led by Ohshima as director.

Sonic Spinball and 3D Blast were the only games developed by American / European teams.

"I was opposed to [Sega's] decision to create games that use 'Sonic-something' so that they can sell it easily. I wanted to make good games, not any games that used the Sonic character in a haphazard way."
- Hirokazu Yasuhara on his work on the Traveller's Tales-developed Sonic titles

Sonic 2, while developed by Sonic Team, wasn't designed in Japan like Sonic 1, 3, and CD, but in the US:

Link: http://www.sega-16.com/feature_page....20Mark%20Cerny

Mark Cerny:In September 1991, four months after Sonic The Hedgehog's release in North America, I'd managed to reunite two of the three key Sonic Team members (Yuji Naka, the Sonic programmer and team leader, and Hirokazu Yasuhara, the designer) at my Sega Technical Institute. They were ready to start work on their next project, and so I asked marketing the obvious question, "would you like another Sonic?" Bizarrely, the response was, and again I kid you not, "no, it's much too soon." So we found another game to make, and in November, as we were getting started, marketing came back and said "oops, we do need that game, and we need it now." So the team lost two months out of an eleven month schedule!

Peter Morawiec: My understanding was that STI was cooked up by Mark Cerny and Sega executives in Japan. Its purpose was to expose Japanese teams to the western culture and "gaming values." Mark Cerny moved from Japan and set up shop in Palo Alto under the guise of a "training facility" where the Japanese could work and learn alongside their non-Japanese teammates.

Sega-16: It's been reported that there were cultural clashes between the Japanese and American teams at STI, which came to a head after Sonic 2 was shipped. What exactly happened?

Peter Morawiec: There was a language barrier, and not everyone chose to mingle, but most of the Japanese team members were very friendly. From what I gathered (and later on experienced firsthand), the main issue was Naka's sense of ownership over Sonic and his perfectionism. The westerners had difficulties matching the art style and coding practices of the Japanese, as well as their work ethic (many of those guys would routinely pull overnighters, sleeping on the floor in their cubicles). Also, to be quite honest, there was disparity in skill levels -- the Sonic Team were Sega's top developers while many of STI's hires were talented kids with no prior experience (myself included). So, after Sonic 2 shipped, Naka pulled the plug. It would've been nice if he gave the "experiment" more time, but I also know how it is when you have a big title to deliver under tight deadlines, so no judgment.

Link: http://info.sonicretro.org/Dust_Hill_Zone

Hirokazu Yasuhara: "Dust Hill" was one of dropped levels from original plan of Sonic 2. Sega of America did want to sell the game at Christmas time of that year, I had no choice, but decided to cut some levels out from original plan. So if Sega allowed me to use enough time to pursue the plan, The Dust Hill zone would be in the game.

[Christuserloeser]

As it was, SoJ eventually started work on Sonic Adventure for the Saturn, but rather late on, and like Shenmue, it got moved over to the DC.
SoJ really should have been pushing a 3D platform game as early as they could though: be it sonic themed or not. (Sonic would be the natural choice though)
At least they got that right on the Dreamcast.

Personally I think Sonic Team were working on / experimenting with a 3D Sonic right after Knuckles Chaotix but couldn't get it done on a level that was visually appealing. (I think Crash Bandicoot was the very first 3D platformer on either PS1 or Saturn that looked okay.)

There were these Sonic stages in Nights (1996), then Sonic World in Sonic Jam (1997), then Sonic Adventure (1998).

We had fun with Clockwork Knight, Astal, and Shin Shinobi Den / Shinobi Legends. And hoped for a port of Knuckles Chaotix.

A 2D Sonic was what we were waiting for, really.

He didn't sell those games to MS, Sega published them for the Xbox, unless I'm gravely mistaken

Might be my wording: Moore made a deal with Microsoft. This deal secured Xbox exclusivity for Shenmue 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Jet Set Radio Future, Toejam & Earl, GunValkyrie, and half a dozen other Dreamcast games.

Practically all other games Sega had in the pipeline (which were A LOT) and that weren't included in this deal ended up on Dreamcast, GameCube and PlayStation.

It wouldn't have been until 2002 or so that it would have been clear if the DC would have been viable in the long term or not. (if it was competitive with the GC and Xbox -let alone ahead in market share in some regions, that should have been enough)

Yeah, absolutely, but Moore pulled the plug even before Phantasy Star Online was released.

It's been exactly the same disaster as usual: They had the hardware, they had the software, but management ruined everything.

[Team Andromeda]

That's not the impression I get generally. The press and rather a lot of Sonic fans seem to look up to him as the father of Sonic, an image he himself has promoted. That's why the guy annoys me a bit. Hirokazu Yasuhara, Masaharu Yoshii, Naoto Ohshima, who are they?

That is a image built up by the press , and like what happens with Dave Perry and Aladdin and Earthworm Jim , where its almost like Dave made the games on his own, and people forget he was just the programmer and that it was team effort . That happens sometimes when the game engine is pretty brilliant .
Do people think Yu Suzuki made Out Run, Virtual Fighter on his own, that Nagoshi made Yakuza and Monkeyball on his own, . Yoshiaki Koizumi is doing more than Miyamoto when it comes to Mario, Eiji Aonuma is doing more for Zelda these days, but its always Miyamoto that gets the major credit , same for Shinji Mikam, he gets the credit for RE4, even though its a team effort


It happens

Might be my wording: Moore made a deal with Microsoft. This deal secured Xbox exclusivity for Shenmue 2, Panzer Dragoon Orta, Jet Set Radio Future, Toejam & Earl, GunValkyrie, and half a dozen other Dreamcast games

The deal was for CT III, Shenmue II and HOTD III, SEGA GT . With the like of Orta, JSRF I don't think any major deals were done, and it was more to do with the team liking the Hardware and SOJ thinking the X-Box would be a massive seller

Yeah, absolutely, but Moore pulled the plug even before Phantasy Star Online was released

Sega Japan and CSK stopped DC production , nothing Moore could do about it . In fact Moore did wonders for the DC in my eye's , the whole of Sega America did to be fair, unlike SOJ or Sega Europe

[Christuserloeser]

Sega Japan and CSK stopped DC production , nothing Moore could do about it . In fact Moore did wonders for the DC in my eye's , the whole of Sega America did to be fair, unlike SOJ or Sega Europe

No. We do know for a fact that Moore went ahead and announced the discontinuation of Dreamcast back in January 2001.

http://uk.retro.ign.com/articles/974/974695p1.html

More competition was brewing on the horizon as well. Sony and Nintendo were anticipated by all, but Microsoft, the new generation's dark horse, surprised a few. It was no shock, however, to Stolar. Early in the Dreamcast's life, they came to SEGA "offering" to put Windows CE on the Dreamcast, a move that Stolar saw as a transparent Trojan horse to get into the hardware business. He explains his frustrations:

"[Microsoft] brought a whole team of people in. They got to learn the business and then walk away." -- Bernie Stolar

http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showthr...highlight=xbox
http://www.sega-16.com/forum/showpos...3&postcount=58

excerpt from the book 'Opening The Xbox' - pages 192-193:

Quote:
Shoichiro Irimajiri, who was the CEO of Sega Enterprises in Japan, said his company was surprised to learn first from other game developers that Microsoft was planning to enter the console business. He was angry that he hadn't heard it from Microsoft first. His complaints led to meetings to discuss whether Microsoft and Sega could work together on the next-generation console. At first, he wasn't interested in selling out to Microsoft because the Dreamcast appeared to be doing well in the United States. The Microsoft side was equally lukewarm to the idea

"Every time we looked at them, we thought all we wanted was the software," said Chris Phillips, who managed the Sega relationship until he left Microsoft in early 2000. "They weren't willing to sell just their software business. They wanted Microsoft to do a box that could combine the Xbox and the Dreamcast2."

Sega-Microsoft Ties Are Over?
http://www.gamespot.com/news/2577163.html

* By Ike Sato, GameSpot
* Posted May 25, 2000 5:44 pm PT

Nikkei Computer reports that ties between Sega and Microsoft are over -- the comment comes from CSK chairman and newly appointed president of Sega of Japan, Isao Okawa. In the past, both companies have had strong ties in the development of the Dreamcast console, where a customized version of Windows CE is used as the machine's OS. Sega has also been working closely with Microsoft's console Xbox, until negotiations broke down regarding a possible Dreamcast compatibility. Previously, it was mentioned that one of Sega's future roles with Microsoft was to become the OEM manufacturer of the Xbox, but with Okawa's recent comment, that possibility is now even slimmer.

"Sega will now be working on network-related projects without the help of Microsoft, and is currently developing the succesor to the Dreamcast - a completely separate hardware from the Xbox," Nikkei Computer reports.

Which never happened. Because after Peter Moore announced the Dreamcast's discontinuation Sega's stock became better toilet paper.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology...ews.microsoft1

So on January 31 2001 we said Sega is leaving hardware – somehow I got to make that call, not the Japanese. I had to fire a lot of people, it was not a pleasant day.

Moore didn't get fired though, he found a better job a Microsoft, overseeing the Xbox launch.

NO ONE has EVER survived making a deal with Microsoft. They either get absorbed completely, or run into the ground. In either case, the company is gone for good. MS is like the Borg in that respect.

[Team Andromeda]

No. We do know for a fact that Moore went ahead and announced the discontinuation of Dreamcast back in January 2001

Only after CSK and SEGA Japan stopped production, has confirmed in a interview with the late great Isao Okawa. SEGA Japan call the shots on hardware, make no mistake about it .

Moore didn't get fired though, he found a better job a Microsoft, overseeing the Xbox launch

Why should he. Moore and SOA did a far better job of selling the DC, pushing Online and getting decent software sales , in stark contrast to SEGA Japan and the baboons at SEGA Europe (at the time of the DC). His only real cock up was selling Shenmue II USA right to MS

And I'm pretty sure SEGA went to MS, not the other way around. I'm sure there were talks with MS helping with software for the Saturn too. And it's no different from SONY using both SEGA and NCL as a means for to get ready for their own console