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Thread: Sega CD Jewel Cases

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by tz101 View Post
    The game disc says, "Not For Resale" on it so maybe it was a pack-in with a system?
    It must have been, since some Saturns came packed with Virtua Fighter (mine was one of them).

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    darn the spelling was fixed oh well it was funy while it lasted.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeniczone View Post
    The design on the controller is extremely complicated, and I don't believe, even to this day, anybody has gotten it right. The problem is trying to make a controller that is great for both FPS'ers and 2D platform/fighting games. The Playstation/360 layout seems to be the best for FPS games, but are lacking for 2D fighters and such. The 6-button layout is an obvious advantage in 2D games, but having 6-buttons also takes up space on the controller for a second analog stick, on top of that 6-buttons wouldn't work in a FPS case, simply because when both analog sticks are being used at the same time it is impractical to have one thumb controller both, an analog stick and 6 buttons. Then you have those casual games who want motion controls, blah.
    The best multi-use controller I've seen is the Graxis Xterminater ca 1996, some think it looks like a bit of a mess (I think it looks cool personally), but it's the most versitile controller I've ever seen, and the layou has potential of going even further too. (d-pad shape could be a bit better, left analog stick could be given a moderately longer throw for more precision, and the directional hat/nub on the right could have been replaced with a 2nd analog stick, the face buttons probably could have been better if a little broader and concave -more like the genesis/saturn, but they were pretty good nonetheless)
    It seems that before Gravis died, they did update with a new xterminator derivative, but it looked ugly and was generally less functional from what I saw. (including removal of the throttle slider)

    That's the most jack of all trades controller I've ever laid my hands on for sure (or even seen for that matter). A shame the USB version is rather uncommon and no one licensed the design after Gravis's demise.

    It's got everything for the time except dual analog sticks: well placed along stick AND d-pad, directional knub for the right thumb, 6 face buttons for the right hand (plus a bunch of auxiliary buttons and a second function button), throttle slider, 2 very fluid analog triggers, and 2 digital triggers/buttons further down the grips. see: http://gepachika.exblog.jp/20535/

    Some of that is overkill for console games (though there are several cases where it could have been quite useful still), but far more often for PC games to fully eliminate keyboard or mouse usage with games with very complex key commands. (Activision's late 90s Battlezone game comes to mind in using almost all -if not all of the features and buttons due to the combination vehicle combat and realtime strategy game -a lot of flight/space combat sims would fit with that too and there's cases where they try to cram those onto consoles and either leave features out or make operation more cumbersome with additional menus or button combos)
    And having more than you need with a lot going unused is always better than not having enough. (nothing wrong with playing atari 2600 games with a sega 6-button controller )

    In terms of controllers that really facilitate good d-pad use and analog stick use, the N64 wins easily, but it also prevents good simultaneous/concurrent analog+dpad control and games that misuse it as such don't work too well. In terms of a pure comparison as a d-pad based controller (ignoring the center prong entirely) it's the best Nintendo ever made IMO, universally superior to the SNES and NES pads and obviously the GB pad in terms of d-pad usage. (shoulder buttons are better than SNES by far and the grips are great even if a bit small for large hands -vs no grips at all on the SNES pads). Using the c-buttons in leu of additional face buttons is a bit of a detriment in some ways (vs 4 more nice sized buttons rather than just the 2 nice a/b buttons) but there are obvious advantages there too for dual d-pad type control, and you still get 6 face buttons to the SNES's 4.


    The best actual analog thumbstick design I've used in terms of functionality and comfort is the xbox duke's right analog stick. At some point I cleaned my controller and accidentally swapped the sticks and have since found that it works exceptionally well with the original right analog stick used for the left one.
    Texturing is minimal, but it's well rubberized and a good matte finish for decent grip (except maybe those who get really sweaty fingers... or eat greasy foods while playing ) and the fully mushroomed hemispherical shape is just awesome. I realized that the way I push on the analog stick of the GC often diggs into my thumb (I don't tend to tilt my thumb so much as shift it around the top of the stick to push in the desired direction, I push from the sides to move the stick, not from the middle/top -thus my tumb ends up on top of the edge of the stick in a very uncomfortable position on the GC). The N64 stick's more rounded edges to the stick topper make it a bit better in that respect than the GC I realized recently with my thumb getting a bit sore faster on some GC games.
    The DC's analog stick has a similar domed shape to the Xbox duke's right stick, though the throw seems shorter and it's all hard plastic: still it avoids the soreness problem of the GC (which otherwise improced on the N64's hard plastic... except the rubberized piece often tends to wear out and losen up -or tear in extreme cases).
    The dual shock 's sticks are OK, though they feel a bit off for me. (my big problem is the size and shape of the PSX controller being quite uncomfortable for me -d-pad is mediocre too)

    On the converse side, you have oversized concave/dished analog sticks (so to speak) like the Saturn 3D controller and Gravis exterminator: while they don't cater to my stye of pushing sticks from the outside edge, they're so big and conform well to the effect of cater quite well to pushing from the inside edge like a d-pad instead and I think the only awkwardness is transitioning between the more common stick form factor.

    On that note, I think the Vectrex was the first to have a really well-made usable analog thumbstick on an electronic game system of any sort. (in line with the high-quality analog thumbsticks used in RC plane/car/boat tranmitters)

    Well thats an interesting point because we have an Amplifier from 1964, and the only thing wrong with it is the potentiometers are starting to fail. So turning up the volume can be very "scratchy."
    That's not getting worn out, that's getting dust/dirt into the potentiometer: in most cases, that can be cleaned out unless gritty dust actually abrades the contacts. (sometimes just moving the pot back and forth quickly will flush it a fair bit, but that's really not good to do as it greatly increases the chance of such abrasion)
    You can have that sort of scratchiness (or jittering on an analog paddle/joysick) happen totally randomly with no wear from use, but just being exposed to dust.

    Only when the potentiometer surfaces/brushes (I think brush applies here) are actually damaged will cleaning not solve it. (in some cases you can repair the bushes/contacts too, depending on the type of pot assembly used -ie little compact pot modules will be impractical to repair, especially the tiny, complex spring loaded pot assemblies of analog thumbsticks, but some larger assemblies, and especially large, discrete potentiometers like various stereo amps/paddles/tvs/radios/etc are far more reasonable to disassemble and clean -the atari 5200 uses the same bulky pots as the 2600 paddles in a rather odd assembly -they're flat and side by side, not directly connected to the joystick axes from what I recall)


    I actually have a hard time believing this. I have a hard time seeing popular games like NFS: Most Wanted, GTA San Andreas, and any FPS working on the Dreamcast just because of the controller and memory card. NFS Most Wanted has a lot of customizable data, which would probably require a dedicated memory card just to store it all. Remember playing games like Advanced Dungeons and Dragons for Sega CD where one game save would take your entire internal memory. Same for San Andreas, a lot of customizable stuff goes on in the game, saving all that would be hell on those small memory card, and forget any First Person Shooter. The controllers just don't allow them. Try playing MDK 2 and you will see what I mean. Don't get me wrong the Dreamcast is a great console, but I just can't help but feel Sega rushed it out too early and ended up putting it in a generation of its own.
    I was talking in hardware terms of the games working reasonably: in that respect, RAM would be a factor in some cases, but the PS2 also had some RAM limitations as well. Some PC, Xbox, or GC exclusives may not have fully worked or required heavier cuts though. (especially any Xbox exclusives requiring significant use of the HDD)

    In terms of the memory cards: the initial planning does indeed seem poor due to lack of facilitating larger single blocks rather than the segmented 128 kB banks, but even so, it seems like it could have been worked around with using the multi-banks method with larger games having to use more than 1 full bank in some cases (or several banks). It would have complicated things but I doubt it would have been anywhere near unreasonable. (especially given it's just save data and all loaded to RAM for in-game use)
    That probably would have increased cost on the VMUs vs single large memory blocks too, but then again, the gimmicky VMU design itself added a lot to cost. (especially since the DC was pretty weak in japan and the potential for VMUs to fit into the tomagachi market was thus a bit moot -and eliminating that functionality with the batter and speaker and discrete funtionality, you could still have the LCD screen for in-game use -especially setting up sports plays and such without the other player seeing, and not having quite the cost of the full VMU -and it's not like they couldn't have had a cheaper LCD-less memory card format as well)
    The fact that there were actual problems with using larger single blocks of memory seems like a huge oversight on their part though.

    I personally like external memory card better then hard drives or internal memory. If your by yourself then no big deal, but if you would go over to a friends house to play a game, you could take your memory card with you and have all your own data to play against them with.
    People still do that with the removable HDDs on current gen consoles (at least the 360)
    Still that's significant, but there are alternate methods for that: backing up save data to SD card on the wii (I think that works, I've never bothered as friends always end up brining the whole console over), using the external memory cards on the Xbox to back-up desired HDD data, etc. (the latter would also apply to the 360's memory cards too, short of bringing the whole HDD over)

    My bad, you are correct. For some reason I was thinking the SCD came out after the 32X. Dumb moment. I believe Euro got something similar to a double jewel case.
    I think some games used the double thick CD sized cases, but there were also some soft black plastic ones too I remember seeing in previous discussions. (they didn't look like clam shell boxes though, they were a bit different)

    As for when the cardboard boxes came out, I'm not entirely sure. It was a few months before the Sega 32X came out because a lot of the later Genny games were in cardboard. So maybe late '94?
    Maybe at the same time as the 32x. I remember it being mentioned that there was still a mix of plastic and cardboard in transition for a while and Europe got plastic a bit longer. (Japan never switched to paper iirc)

    The European Saturn game started out with plastic backed cardboard boxes. They are similar to those found on DVDs. Where it is a clamshell, but half of the clam is cardboard. Oddly the only DVD we have that came like this was Scooby Doo: Cyber... something. I can't remember the name of it.
    I think we've got a dragon ball Z movie in that packaging, and the first pokeon film. Probably a couple others. (I know I've seen a lot more, but more recently, I haven't seen them in stores: just the full sized and tacky/flimsy slimline DVD/BD cases)

    I happen to have Twisted Metal for Playstation in a cardboard longbox, and I must say Playstation's cardboard boxes are FAR from cheap. They are made out of a thick solid cardboard covered in a glossy album art.
    Is that a hinged box, or a full lid like board games/old PC games?
    That's not the sort of box I was thinking of, there's another I remember with a plastic edge at the hinges and cardboard hinged lid (with the back plastic as well iirc, more like the semi-paper DVD cases). I remember a basketball game in particular using that case at goodwill recently. (maybe it wasn't a sony made case, be specific to the publisher -like EA's wider cplastic or Acclaim's thick cardboard genesis boxes)

    O, I know what you were talking about, I was making a suggestion that if Sega used the same case design, but used a different plastic. So instead of a Acrylic they used a different clear plastic, but to my knowledge there isn't another clear plastic that would look nearly as good as the acrylic Sega used.
    There's polycarbonate, but again, the costs for using that for cases would probably have been impractical. (not really sure on the cost of it at the time other than the obvious use for optical discs -or related costs needed for actually molding it rather than just flat sheets)

    Overall I think the design that you are looking for is the Plastic cases for the Saturn in Europe. Which probably fits your idea down to the last detail. I can't really say about card games though as I have never seen any. Your talking about the SMS card games right?, but as I said before the only problem these Euro boxes have is they are impossible to open. This is because of a design flaw where your suppose to put your thumbs. The notch on the side is only big enough for one of your thumbs, making it hard to get a grip on the thing to open it.
    No, I didn't mean like the partially cardboard EU Saturn cases (or cheap cardboard DVD cases), but proper all plastic DVD cases as used by all modern console and most PC games. Or more specifically, a similar derivative of the clam shell plastic cases used by Sega and video rental stores. (iirc, early clam shell DVD rental cases were a lot closer to VHS/video game cart rental cases -other than Sega games, rental stores tended to use their own clam shell cases or just rent the carts out loose -I actually have a clam shell case with Nintendo Pinball from blockbuser)

    The card cases are identical in design to the standard Sega clam shell cases other than being thinner (and, again, rather similar to video rental clam shell boxes as well).
    The only issue with the existing Genesis/SMS (or card) clam shell cases is they'd be a tight fit for a CD: it might work, but it would be very tight, so practically speaking they probably would have to extend the width a little to really facilitate the discs. Using the exact form factor of Genesis/MD boxes for CDs would probably be undesirable as you'd want them to look more distinct, but given the fact that SMS card games were not on the market anymore (in the US at least -or at least very few people would recognise them -and if they did there's still the dintinct difference from the distinct white+blue grid of the SMS boxes), that form factor could have been fine to use directly.
    Hell, TG-16/PCE games were sold in CD jewel cases with a card holder replacing the CD holder, so there could have been even more confusion there there.

    Using standard CD jewel cases would have been fine other than making the manual too small (they could have done what many PC games did and included the manual separate from the CD case).

    I actually did some research on the optical media packaging. Turns out the actual stuff used for these jewel cases is called polystyrene, an acrylic like substance. Very clear, but brittle as all hell, doesn't have any give. So of course increasing the surface size of this substance (what sega did with the larger case) would allow more bending, but this stuff doesn't bend, which results in cracks. The very first Jewel cases in 1986 actually were much thicker and heavier then modern jewel cases, so the design flaws weren't as apparent at the time, but the problems were mainly the hinges. This design flaw was later addressed with Super Jewel Boxes, though these are still in production today, they haven't taken off.
    Polystyrene can actually be rather flexible too, but i think it greatly depends on the thickness used as well as possibly heat treating or plasticizers used: any plastic with the number 6 recycling symbol is polystyrene, and styrafoam of course, but that's REALLY thin bubbles you're talkign about there.

    But pure polystyrene does seem to be desribed as fairly brittle. (obviously anything gets more flexible as it gets thin and some forms have additonal elasticizers I believe) True acrylic plastic (namely PMMA -the same used for the decades old plexiglass) would make far more sense with how brittle it is.

    HDPE and LDPE do tend to be a bit frosty (but that's OK if the transparent sleve is thin and the label underneath is close against it like Genesis boxes). Not sure what plastic is used for DVD cases, trading card sleeves (or genesis/rental cases for that matter), but it could be polyethylene or perhaps PVC (vinyl) even, or polypropylene.

    DVD packaging is called 'Keep cases' and are made out of polypropylene which is less brittle and much softer. Though like I said before in cases of clear polypropylene it doesn't allow as much light to pass through.
    OK, so it is PP for that at least (both the case and the transparent outer sleeve I assume), though I wonder what was used for the older clamshell cases. I wonder if PP is used for trading card sleeves and such as well.

    Polycarbonate, PC is a pretty expensive plastic, and is still rather brittle. It is usually mixed with ABS to form ABS/PC to make a fire retardant, durable plastic. Which is normally used for items like power tools. Probably over kill for use in media storage because media doesn't create heat.
    Polycarbonate can be extremely tough and is what is used for all optical discs since CDs (laserdiscs tended to use PMCA -true acrylic plastic as with Plexiglass).
    Polycarbonate is what's commonly superseded plexiglass for plastic window sheeting (for a logn time now) due to far better flexibility, impact resistance, and scratch resistance. (also replaced other plastics for eye glasses due to the higher toughness, scratch resistance, but mainly due to the higher refractive index allowing much thinner and thus lighter lenses to be made). You've got safty glasses made out of solid plexiglass, including the solid plastic wraparound type (back in highschool and middle school they got those in bulk, solid transparent PC molded plastic -and due to the bulk orders and selling to students at cost they were $2 vs more like 5x that or more in stores -at least about 6 years ago).
    In middle school in particular we had one pair that got overly scratched up and the instructor let us test the durability to destruction by pounding on them with a drill hammer. Man did those things take a beating, they warped heavily and tore rather than really cracking.

    Though this would be interesting, similar to the cardboard Playstation longboxes where the artwork is printed directly onto the box, I don't think this idea will catch on as it makes replacement boxes expensive/impractical to make.
    I was talking back then, and replacement boxes wouldn't really be a factor for the manufacturer. Although you would have to consider standardization, with all the unlabeled boxes being standard, but variable production volumes probably being much more flexible with paper inserts used rather than printing on plastic directly. (ie solid plastic blanks having to be printed on vs more paper inserts being printed and slipped into the plastic blanks with sleeves -of course, the partial cardboard DVD/Playstation/Saturn cases would be like the direct print plastic cases in that case too other than cardboard being easier/cheaper to print to)
    Back before any such cases were standardized would have been the time it might have happened, but after standard DVD cases and such with the plastic sleeve (akin to the previous VHS clamshell boxes or Sega's cart/card cases) it wouldn't be likely at all.

    I wouldn't know. My family didn't adopt DVD until the middle of DVDs life, which by then they had already started using the locking "Keep Boxes." I would imagine they would have just used the standard box, or used jewel cases for DVD rentals. I know that some stores like Movie Gallery just rent the movies in their standard boxes, except for Blu-Rays, they seem to take the artwork out of the bluray boxes and put them into DVD boxes, but some stores like Family Video actually have a special line of locking DVD boxes which the box can't be opened without either a tool, or risk to the disc inside.
    We had DVD in the late 90s via our PC and I know most early DVD used regular CD jewel cases (like VCDs had), but I'm wondering about what video rental stored did when they first started carrying DVDs. (even if you didn't rent any, you might remember looking at the DVD section) From what I remember, blockbuster used cases very similar to their VHS cases, but slimmer and wide enough to accommodate the discs. (I'm not sure if they used the same cases they did now or not -as it is now, I think they still have that textured somewhat frosty sleeve on DVD cases like old VHS cases or Genesis clamshell boxes vs the glossy plastic of mainstream DVD cases)

    Again, those old VHS (and Genesis or SMS, etc) cases are very reminiscent of what later became standard for DVD cases.
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
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    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    The best multi-use controller I've seen is the Graxis Xterminater ca 1996...
    I've seen that controller before, never really thought anything of it, just kind of thought it was another gawky third party controller. Though, now that I look at it again, it does look like it had a lot of potential. Still suffers from the first thing I pointed out, and that is 6-buttons don't really allow for enough room to place a second analog stick.

    My solution for FPS'ers if a design could be made to support both the 6-buttons and the second analog stick would be to place the C and Z buttons on the top and on the face. Similar to the N64 controller which places the same button L and Z. This would solve the problem of having to many things for the right thumb to do if a FPS or similar game was being played.

    That's the most jack of all trades controller I've ever laid my hands on for sure (or even seen for that matter). A shame the USB version is rather uncommon and no one licensed the design after Gravis's demise.
    Really? It isn't USB for many buttons? That odd, most controllers for the MIDI Game Port don't support more then 4 buttons and a D-Pad.

    It's got everything for the time except dual analog sticks: well placed along stick AND d-pad, directional knub for the right thumb, 6 face buttons for the right hand (plus a bunch of auxiliary buttons and a second function button), throttle slider, 2 very fluid analog triggers, and 2 digital triggers/buttons further down the grips. see: http://gepachika.exblog.jp/20535/
    All the aux buttons, looks like it has 8 face buttons.
    The analog controls look like they would be pressed in with the middle finger is that correct?

    Some of that is overkill for console games (though there are several cases where it could have been quite useful still), but far more often for PC games to fully eliminate keyboard or mouse usage with games with very complex key commands. (Activision's late 90s Battlezone game comes to mind in using almost all -if not all of the features and buttons due to the combination vehicle combat and realtime strategy game -a lot of flight/space combat sims would fit with that too and there's cases where they try to cram those onto consoles and either leave features out or make operation more cumbersome with additional menus or button combos)
    And having more than you need with a lot going unused is always better than not having enough. (nothing wrong with playing atari 2600 games with a sega 6-button controller )
    First, I want to say, I fucking love Activision's BattleZone. Amazing games. Never beat it, lost the disc, bought battlezone 2, battlezone 2 sucks. Thinking about buying a N64 just so I can play it again. Rise of the Red Dogs or something I think it was called on Nintendo 64.

    The problem with the controller is it has to address everything on one device. Every type of game has a specific device that makes the game the best. FPS - keyboard, racing- wheel, platform - gamepad, flight sim - joystick, etc. The controller has to address all of these. I agree though better to have more then too little, but I think we have come to a standard in controllers. 4 facebuttons, 4 top button, 2 special buttons (start select), d-pad and two sticks.

    In terms of controllers that really facilitate good d-pad use and analog stick use, the N64 wins easily, but it also prevents good simultaneous/concurrent analog+dpad control and games that misuse it as such don't work too well. In terms of a pure comparison as a d-pad based controller (ignoring the center prong entirely) it's the best Nintendo ever made IMO, universally superior to the SNES and NES pads and obviously the GB pad in terms of d-pad usage. (shoulder buttons are better than SNES by far and the grips are great even if a bit small for large hands -vs no grips at all on the SNES pads). Using the c-buttons in leu of additional face buttons is a bit of a detriment in some ways (vs 4 more nice sized buttons rather than just the 2 nice a/b buttons) but there are obvious advantages there too for dual d-pad type control, and you still get 6 face buttons to the SNES's 4.
    Strange you would say that because most people HATE the N64 controller. As far as separating the d-pad and the analog sticks, it seems to be a good idea at the time. I mean it truthfully wasn't any worst then the Saturn controller where the D-Pad and the analog sticks were literally the same buttons. Yet somehow the Saturn controller is the best, but the N64 sucks? I don't understand people.

    As far as your actual commons, I can't really reply because I've never used a SNES controller, Gamecube controller, or a NES controller for that fact.

    The best actual analog thumbstick design I've used in terms of functionality and comfort is the xbox duke's right analog stick. At some point I cleaned my controller and accidentally swapped the sticks and have since found that it works exceptionally well with the original right analog stick used for the left one....
    I actually think you might be on to something here. I've never use the Xbox Duke controller, but I remember everyone complains about how big the controller is. I dont get it.



    Anyway back on topic. The dome shape seems like a much smarter design then the concave shape. Simply because when I'm using the analog stick, if I'm pushing left, I would be pushing down on the right side of the stuck, not the left side. So in terms of design the dome shape makes much more scenes.

    The Playstation D-Pad suffers from being harsh on the thumb. I remember playing a tournament of Mortal Kombat on the Playstation and having the biggest blister on my left thumb.

    On the converse side, you have oversized concave/dished analog sticks (so to speak) like the Saturn 3D controller and Gravis exterminator: while they don't cater to my stye of pushing sticks from the outside edge, they're so big and conform well to the effect of cater quite well to pushing from the inside edge like a d-pad instead and I think the only awkwardness is transitioning between the more common stick form factor.
    The thing I like about the large analog stick is it seems to glide rather then tilt, similar to the PSP. The saturn kind of ruined this because your thumb tents to slide off the analog stick.

    On that note, I think the Vectrex was the first to have a really well-made usable analog thumbstick on an electronic game system of any sort. (in line with the high-quality analog thumbsticks used in RC plane/car/boat tranmitters)
    The Vectrex seems to have more of a miniature joystick then an analog stick, but I guess by definition that is what an analog stick is.

    That's not getting worn out, that's getting dust/dirt into the potentiometer: in most cases, that can be cleaned out unless gritty dust actually abrades the contacts. (sometimes just moving the pot back and forth quickly will flush it a fair bit, but that's really not good to do as it greatly increases the chance of such abrasion)
    You can have that sort of scratchiness (or jittering on an analog paddle/joysick) happen totally randomly with no wear from use, but just being exposed to dust.
    I was going to try to fit it with a motorized pot anyway so I can retrofit a remote control for it.

    Though until then I will give that a try to move it fast and clean it. I would imagine it is the brushes though. 40 years of being turned on and off probably has taken its toll on steel wires.

    I was talking in hardware terms of the games working reasonably: in that respect, RAM would be a factor in some cases, but the PS2 also had some RAM limitations as well. Some PC, Xbox, or GC exclusives may not have fully worked or required heavier cuts though. (especially any Xbox exclusives requiring significant use of the HDD)
    In that respect, i believe the Dreamcast could have easily keep up with the competition.

    In terms of the memory cards: the initial planning does indeed seem poor due to lack of facilitating larger single blocks rather than the segmented 128 kB banks, but even so, it seems like it could have been worked around with using the multi-banks method with larger games having to use more than 1 full bank in some cases (or several banks). It would have complicated things but I doubt it would have been anywhere near unreasonable. (especially given it's just save data and all loaded to RAM for in-game use)
    That probably would have increased cost on the VMUs vs single large memory blocks too, but then again, the gimmicky VMU design itself added a lot to cost. (especially since the DC was pretty weak in japan and the potential for VMUs to fit into the tomagachi market was thus a bit moot -and eliminating that functionality with the batter and speaker and discrete funtionality, you could still have the LCD screen for in-game use -especially setting up sports plays and such without the other player seeing, and not having quite the cost of the full VMU -and it's not like they couldn't have had a cheaper LCD-less memory card format as well)
    The fact that there were actual problems with using larger single blocks of memory seems like a huge oversight on their part though.
    I don't think there was any hardware limitations to using memory banks larger then 128kBs. It was actually some games would get 'confused' if a memory bank larger then 128kbs.

    I actually like the LCD. I thought it had a few good features. The idea of the memory card being a portable game system was dumb though. Their was also a few games that made the LCD screen useless. Like Tony Hawk, where it would show the score of the trick, which is dumb because I don't have enough time to look at the controller to see my score.

    One limitation the Dreamcast couldn't overcome though is its small disc size. Only 1Gig, plus some of that 1Gb is dedicated to the OS. The discs are even smaller then the Gamecube in terms of data space.


    People still do that with the removable HDDs on current gen consoles (at least the 360)
    Still that's significant, but there are alternate methods for that: backing up save data to SD card on the wii (I think that works, I've never bothered as friends always end up brining the whole console over), using the external memory cards on the Xbox to back-up desired HDD data, etc. (the latter would also apply to the 360's memory cards too, short of bringing the whole HDD over)
    Removable HDD aren't quite what I mean. I'm talking about games like NFS: Most Wanted, where I would go over to a friends house, he would put his memory card into slot one, and I would put my memory card into slot two, and we would both be able to use our own customized cars.


    I think we've got a dragon ball Z movie in that packaging, and the first pokeon film. Probably a couple others. (I know I've seen a lot more, but more recently, I haven't seen them in stores: just the full sized and tacky/flimsy slimline DVD/BD cases)
    I would believe the slimline DVD cases have replaced the cardboard ones because the cardboard ones still require a good chunk of plastic to work.


    Is that a hinged box, or a full lid like board games/old PC games?
    That's not the sort of box I was thinking of, there's another I remember with a plastic edge at the hinges and cardboard hinged lid (with the back plastic as well iirc, more like the semi-paper DVD cases). I remember a basketball game in particular using that case at goodwill recently. (maybe it wasn't a sony made case, be specific to the publisher -like EA's wider cplastic or Acclaim's thick cardboard genesis boxes)
    It is hinged, but the entire box is cardboard. It is almost exactly like a DVD version of the Saturn/CD boxes. Again except being made out of plastic it is made out of cardboard.

    The box your thinking of, is the one with ridged edges. Unfortunately, I don't have this style of box, my Playstation collection isn't that big. This one I'm not entirely sure how it is designed. It seems like a polyethylene version of the Saturn box.


    No, I didn't mean like the partially cardboard EU Saturn cases (or cheap cardboard DVD cases), but proper all plastic DVD cases as used by all modern console and most PC games. Or more specifically, a similar derivative of the clam shell plastic cases used by Sega and video rental stores. (iirc, early clam shell DVD rental cases were a lot closer to VHS/video game cart rental cases -other than Sega games, rental stores tended to use their own clam shell cases or just rent the carts out loose -I actually have a clam shell case with Nintendo Pinball from blockbuser)
    I think you should take another look at this picture.


    This case is made entirely from polyethylene, I believe. 0% cardboard. It is a clamshell design. And the second picture is to show the size of them is very close to the american long boxes. The cover is also housed behind a thin piece of plastic like modern dvd/pc cases.

    The card cases are identical in design to the standard Sega clam shell cases other than being thinner (and, again, rather similar to video rental clam shell boxes as well).
    The only issue with the existing Genesis/SMS (or card) clam shell cases is they'd be a tight fit for a CD: it might work, but it would be very tight, so practically speaking they probably would have to extend the width a little to really facilitate the discs. Using the exact form factor of Genesis/MD boxes for CDs would probably be undesirable as you'd want them to look more distinct, but given the fact that SMS card games were not on the market anymore (in the US at least -or at least very few people would recognise them -and if they did there's still the dintinct difference from the distinct white+blue grid of the SMS boxes), that form factor could have been fine to use directly.
    Hell, TG-16/PCE games were sold in CD jewel cases with a card holder replacing the CD holder, so there could have been even more confusion there there.
    I think this would have been great as well. Especially, if one has a collection of Sega games. The stripe design used in american games are colored differently for each system. Genesis - Red, 32X - yellow, CD - Blue, Saturn - white. I think they would have looked great placed next to each other. Unfortunately, the Genesis cases don't all use this design. When the Genesis first came out it used the master system checker design, and companies like EA totally ignored the design. Which kind of throws the collection off.

    Maybe if they made them thinner then Genesis games, but thicker then the card games, it would have given that distinctive look?

    Using standard CD jewel cases would have been fine other than making the manual too small (they could have done what many PC games did and included the manual separate from the CD case).
    I'm not really a big fan of jewel cases in a game situation. I don't have a problem with it for music, because I normally buy a CD, put it in iTunes then put it on my shelf, so the music cd doesn't really get touched again.

    As you said the manuals are way too small and the side label isn't really distinctive enough for anything other then small text. Remember how the Saturn has big nice pictures on the side of the case. It makes it a lot easier to find a game is a large collection, because my eyes can find a picture of Waldo a lot easier then the world Waldo in a paragraph of words.


    Polystyrene can actually be rather flexible too, but i think it greatly depends on the thickness used as well as possibly heat treating or plasticizers used: any plastic with the number 6 recycling symbol is polystyrene, and styrafoam of course, but that's REALLY thin bubbles you're talkign about there.
    It can be, but not in its pure (clear) form.

    HDPE and LDPE do tend to be a bit frosty (but that's OK if the transparent sleve is thin and the label underneath is close against it like Genesis boxes). Not sure what plastic is used for DVD cases, trading card sleeves (or genesis/rental cases for that matter), but it could be polyethylene or perhaps PVC (vinyl) even, or polypropylene.
    PVC would actually probably work great of holding the label to the box. Not only is it very flexible, but it also allows quite a big of light to pass through.

    OK, so it is PP for that at least (both the case and the transparent outer sleeve I assume), though I wonder what was used for the older clamshell cases. I wonder if PP is used for trading card sleeves and such as well.
    It very well could be PP because material combine to themselves better then other materials. I would also thing trading cards sleeves are made of this type of plastic simply because they show a slit distortion, or frostiness to them.

    Polycarbonate can be extremely tough and is what is used for all optical discs since CDs (laserdiscs tended to use PMCA -true acrylic plastic as with Plexiglass).
    Polycarbonate is what's commonly superseded plexiglass for plastic window sheeting (for a logn time now) due to far better flexibility, impact resistance, and scratch resistance. (also replaced other plastics for eye glasses due to the higher toughness, scratch resistance, but mainly due to the higher refractive index allowing much thinner and thus lighter lenses to be made). You've got safty glasses made out of solid plexiglass, including the solid plastic wraparound type (back in highschool and middle school they got those in bulk, solid transparent PC molded plastic -and due to the bulk orders and selling to students at cost they were $2 vs more like 5x that or more in stores -at least about 6 years ago).
    In middle school in particular we had one pair that got overly scratched up and the instructor let us test the durability to destruction by pounding on them with a drill hammer. Man did those things take a beating, they warped heavily and tore rather than really cracking.
    Isn't PC used to build the cases for the game consoles, or is that ABS?

    I was talking back then, and replacement boxes wouldn't really be a factor for the manufacturer. Although you would have to consider standardization, with all the unlabeled boxes being standard, but variable production volumes probably being much more flexible with paper inserts used rather than printing on plastic directly. (ie solid plastic blanks having to be printed on vs more paper inserts being printed and slipped into the plastic blanks with sleeves -of course, the partial cardboard DVD/Playstation/Saturn cases would be like the direct print plastic cases in that case too other than cardboard being easier/cheaper to print to)
    Back before any such cases were standardized would have been the time it might have happened, but after standard DVD cases and such with the plastic sleeve (akin to the previous VHS clamshell boxes or Sega's cart/card cases) it wouldn't be likely at all.
    Lets say it was a DVD case.

    What if they made a sleeveless DVD case. Then they printed the cover art directly onto the back side of the sleeve, then melt the sleeves corners onto the case. I think this would work quite well. Unless that is what you where trying to suggest.

    I see several problems with just directly printing onto the plastic services of the case. First, it will mean retooling the ink presses for every type of new case released. Second, it leaves the ink surface exposed. Leading to wear on the artwork itself. (think of the genesis cardboard boxes) Third, they can't outsource the art printing. Right now companies can outsource the need for artwork to a printing companies, but printing companies buy paper, not cases, This would probably increase the cost of printing because buying large rolls of paper is a lot easier then buying boxes upon boxes of cases.


    We had DVD in the late 90s via our PC and I know most early DVD used regular CD jewel cases (like VCDs had), but I'm wondering about what video rental stored did when they first started carrying DVDs. (even if you didn't rent any, you might remember looking at the DVD section) From what I remember, blockbuster used cases very similar to their VHS cases, but slimmer and wide enough to accommodate the discs. (I'm not sure if they used the same cases they did now or not -as it is now, I think they still have that textured somewhat frosty sleeve on DVD cases like old VHS cases or Genesis clamshell boxes vs the glossy plastic of mainstream DVD cases)
    You mean like the Universal game boxes? These are big enough to hold CDs.


    These are made by a company that specialize in media boxes for rental companies.

    I'm afraid I was too young to remember the release of DVDs inside of Video Game stores.
    Last edited by Xeniczone; 08-31-2010 at 07:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeniczone View Post
    I've seen that controller before, never really thought anything of it, just kind of thought it was another gawky third party controller. Though, now that I look at it again, it does look like it had a lot of potential. Still suffers from the first thing I pointed out, and that is 6-buttons don't really allow for enough room to place a second analog stick.
    Not a full stick perhaps, but the digital hat/nub seems like it could be replaced by a decent analog nub as well, or a small analog stick if the S button was moved a little. Or even making it pressure sensitive rather than a full throw analog stick. There's trade-offs with that of course, but the real factor would be sensitivity/accuracy/precision of it.

    My solution for FPS'ers if a design could be made to support both the 6-buttons and the second analog stick would be to place the C and Z buttons on the top and on the face. Similar to the N64 controller which places the same button L and Z. This would solve the problem of having to many things for the right thumb to do if a FPS or similar game was being played.
    Actually, for those who prefer mice, but not keyboard, one really good solution is a mouse+single handed controller with analog stick and a selection of buttons. (often added buttons on the mouse as well)
    This came up recently before.
    I still prefer the keyboard though, I like digital strafing and key tapping, but especially mapped weapons. (not to mention more complex key commands)


    Really? It isn't USB for many buttons? That odd, most controllers for the MIDI Game Port don't support more then 4 buttons and a D-Pad.
    No, there's tons of late gameport controllers that were all digital, only early ones stuck to the default set-up of 4 analog (pot) inputs and 4 digital (button) inputs. Namely 2-button, 2-axis (sometimws 3 axis with throttle) joysticks or Gravis's old 4-button gamepad with digital/analog d-pad (using a primitive resistor DAC to convert the d-pad into analog joystick inputs).

    Almost all such digital gameport controllers simply used the gameport as a 4-bit parallel port (using the 4 button lines). Many of those supported daisy chaining as well.
    There were a lot of crossover controllers to, either with a built-in Y-cables for USB+gameport or an adapter plug that converted game port to USB. (the latter normally using the midi pins to pass though as the USB lines, and I think my Xterminator might work with USB, but I haven't dug it out since getting an adapter)
    I have a bunch of digital gameport controllers that are non-USB compatible though. (the old gravis gamepad pro -PS1 clone controller, a neat multi-button joystick with lock-on gamepad module, and maybe one or 2 others) Those were very common in the late 90s up to maybe 2002 or a bit later.

    All the aux buttons, looks like it has 8 face buttons.
    The analog controls look like they would be pressed in with the middle finger is that correct?
    The S button can be configured as a normal face button, or second function I believe (depending how you map it), the top 2 aux buttons aren't all that useful for in-game stuff but sometimes for pause/options or such, or lesser used funtions in more complex games like raise/lower landing gear or such.

    I always used the analog triggers with my index fingers, but middle or ring finger on the digital buttons under the grips. (the triggers are the big gray paddle like things towards the top of the underside picture here: http://gepachika.exblog.jp/20535/
    The digital buttons are further down the grips. Thrustmader's firestorm controller also has under-grip secondary buttons, but not on the grips but a secondary staggered finger hold and then 2 L and R buttons at the very top/front edge like the PSX controllers.

    First, I want to say, I fucking love Activision's BattleZone. Amazing games. Never beat it, lost the disc, bought battlezone 2, battlezone 2 sucks. Thinking about buying a N64 just so I can play it again. Rise of the Red Dogs or something I think it was called on Nintendo 64.
    I remember it running in XP. Yeah, a fun game, but I could never get past that first Mars stage in the US tour (the escort one), or the first Russian stage at all for that matter.
    If you can get the PC version to work I wouldn't bother with the N64 unless you want to try the split-screen multiplayer. (might not be patched for vista, but I think it works in XP fine and/or is patched)

    The problem with the controller is it has to address everything on one device. Every type of game has a specific device that makes the game the best. FPS - keyboard, racing- wheel, platform - gamepad, flight sim - joystick, etc. The controller has to address all of these. I agree though better to have more then too little, but I think we have come to a standard in controllers. 4 facebuttons, 4 top button, 2 special buttons (start select), d-pad and two sticks.
    And the only usual issue is running out of buttons and/or having annoying combos or nesting menus for some game types. (nesting menus are probably most tolerable with a point and click interface or possibly short button commands after you start memorizing them -even with a keyboard you run into that in some cases)

    I've never really had a case where a FPS was majorly hindered by any reasonably comprehensive analog gamepad... and in some cases where it was a problem, it was due to the mapping of controls and not the controller. For example, the N64 should have allowed stick+c-buttons as standard controls. (with stick moving/strafing and C aiming/turing) There are a few cases where that is supported, but many others where it isn't, and especially with it reversed so stick aims and C moves (I think Doom 64 is stuck like that and it feels very wrong, but you can get used to it). Then there's the games that support various schemes but not that one preferable one... using the d-pad+analog stick would be OK if one could reach enough buttons, but you really can't from that position. (though more games seem to support that than the C+stick) Soem even support 2 controllers for dual analog, but that's awkward and has the same buttonless problem as d-pad+stick.

    Strange you would say that because most people HATE the N64 controller. As far as separating the d-pad and the analog sticks, it seems to be a good idea at the time. I mean it truthfully wasn't any worst then the Saturn controller where the D-Pad and the analog sticks were literally the same buttons. Yet somehow the Saturn controller is the best, but the N64 sucks? I don't understand people.
    I really like the N64 controller, but I think the D-pad was sorely underused: it would have been a nice alternative to a lot og analog controlled games (if noting else but a fail safe for the stick wearing out ). There are a few games wich only use the d-pad and/or support it at least, Kirby Crystal Shards comes to mind.

    People rag on the N64 controller for looking weird, but it was really quite fine: the intentin was allowing d-pad+L to be used alternately with analog+Z, and it was the few games that tried to use both analog and d-pad that made it awkward. Or that the controller only fit kids' hands, but I call BS there as the PSX controller is worse there by a good margin. (i'd argue 360 as well, perhaps SNES -which is significantly smaller than the Saturn or Genesis 6-button controller)

    The GameCube controller did a few things things better: found a contour that really worked well with a wide range of hand sizes, added some of the best analog triggers used on any console to date (extremely fluid and with the tactile click -which was registered separately as well), built-in rumble, the analog stick not wearing too quickly and being rubberized, and having 2 analog sticks. The face buttons aren't as mash-friendly as the N64, the d-pad is nowhere near as good (though placed to allow concurrent use), the analog stick is rubberized but the shape isn't quite as comfortable in long play sessions (the too sharp edge) plus the rubber tends to wear out (vs the stick itself on the N64), and the N64 controller's contour is still decent at that. (ergonomically better than the PSX and 360, maybe a wash with the Controller S though the triggers can pinch -and duke has the problem with small hands, but I'm not in that category)

    N64 is WAY better than the SNES controller in pretty much every way thoug. The shoulder buttons/triggers, grips, d-pad placement, face buttons (A and B at least as they mash excellently), and then there's the expansion port and analog stick.

    The Wavebird was great though.

    As far as your actual commons, I can't really reply because I've never used a SNES controller, Gamecube controller, or a NES controller for that fact.
    I grew up Nintendo and PC, so lots of time with all that and various 3rd party controllers. (the NES max actually worked pretty well when new, but the discstops sliding fluidly when worn -might be able to be fixed, haven't bothered)
    I don't really like the SNES controller more than the NES pad other than maybe the d-pad and the fact it has 4 buttons. I will say that the NES pad is better than the NES2 dogbone and the US SNES pad is better than the PAL/JP SNES/SFC pads and the main reason is concave buttons: the prototype SFC pads even had concave NES type buttons and I've modded a controller to have all concave buttons, though I know some people like convex. (I love the genesis's concave buttons -one of the issues with the Saturn 3D controller was the altered buttons) The N64's a/b aren't concave, but they're barely convex and broad like the 3-button Sega controller's.

    I actually think you might be on to something here. I've never use the Xbox Duke controller, but I remember everyone complains about how big the controller is. I don't get it.
    They tend to be harder to find cheap online too (probably due to limited supply). I can see the problem with smaller hands, but it's my favorite controller of that generation otherwise. (again, I realized by accident that the more dome shaped right stick works better as the left stick)

    Unfortunately the only one I have has an issue with the buttons which makes then have to be pressed very hard (not an issue with Halo where the fave buttons are only sparingly used, but a huge problem for Burnout 3 and some others -Spyro among others).
    For me personally, last gen it's Duke>GC>controller-S>Dual Shock2. (DC controller is a tough call due to the lack of 2nd analog stick or even added face buttons to make up for that -like C buttons or YZBC on the Saturn)
    The lack of dual analog control could have been a major issue for FPSs on the DC in the long term. (and again, not even a d-pad or face buttons to make up for that, there are alternate control schemes, but they tend to be limited, especially with the limited number of buttons)

    Anyway back on topic. The dome shape seems like a much smarter design then the concave shape. Simply because when I'm using the analog stick, if I'm pushing left, I would be pushing down on the right side of the stuck, not the left side. So in terms of design the dome shape makes much more scenes.
    I agree, or at least I'm so used to the dome shape that the concave shape feels off. But again, the really domed (hemisphirical) ones, especially without sharp tapered edges, seem best. (the edge of the GC stick digs in more than the N64 the way I play, the C stick doen't have that problem but still doesn't feel great)

    The Playstation D-Pad suffers from being harsh on the thumb. I remember playing a tournament of Mortal Kombat on the Playstation and having the biggest blister on my left thumb.
    It also feels less responsive, the craziest thing was the fact that the original controllers were d-pad only. (and still sold as low-end or even pack-in late in the PS1/PSOne's life) I don't remember getting blisters, but I never played fighting games on it and only played occasionally at a friend's. I do remember the buttons making me sore in some cases too, or a dual shock 2 in that case, playing simpson's hit and run. (might have been that one controller or it might be that I haven't played another game since that requires constant button holding -as with burnout 3 on the Xbox)

    The thing I like about the large analog stick is it seems to glide rather then tilt, similar to the PSP. The saturn kind of ruined this because your thumb tents to slide off the analog stick.
    Is the Saturn's stick pretty loose? The Xterminator's was rather springy and short-throw as I recall, I think the broad, heavily concave shape may not work well with a larger range of motion. (ie it works fine with a D-pad -or indeed is preferable in many cases- and OK with a short through/stiff analog stick, but bad with a long-throw/loose one)

    The Vectrex seems to have more of a miniature joystick then an analog stick, but I guess by definition that is what an analog stick is.
    Except a joy stick can also be digital, hence the screw-in points on some d-pads to allow thumbsticks too. (7800, early SMS, many gravis gamepads, etc)
    But if you look at the size and shape (especially the small indentation at the top), it's rather similar to a 2-axis joystick of a handheld RC model transmitter.

    In that respect, i believe the Dreamcast could have easily keep up with the competition.
    Yeah, but then there's the single analog stick limit (and lack of supplemental buttons even) as I said above, I had overlooked that in my previous post.
    I suppose a new controller could address that. (especially since console FPSs hadn't totally standardized dual analog yet)


    I don't think there was any hardware limitations to using memory banks larger then 128kBs. It was actually some games would get 'confused' if a memory bank larger then 128kbs.
    I actually like the LCD. I thought it had a few good features. The idea of the memory card being a portable game system was dumb though. Their was also a few games that made the LCD screen useless. Like Tony Hawk, where it would show the score of the trick, which is dumb because I don't have enough time to look at the controller to see my score.
    One limitation the Dreamcast couldn't overcome though is its small disc size. Only 1Gig, plus some of that 1Gb is dedicated to the OS. The discs are even smaller then the Gamecube in terms of data space.
    It was closer to 1.2 GB I think, so not too far off what the GC did, plus there's nothing to say the density couldn't have increased a bit more too. (normal CD-ROM went from 550 MB to almost 900 MB, not to mention the rather obscure DDCD-ROM starting at 1.3 GB though never expanding on that, so unless they were pushing against the density wall for DISCs, it might have ben possible to boos that a bit more, possibly closer to 1.7-1.8 GB)

    And remember some Xbox and PS2 games still used CD-ROM as well, and lots of PC games. (though having 3-6 discs did get a bit annoying -we had DVD by the late 90s but sometimes got CD versions due to prices) And GD-ROm would still mean about 1/2 the number of maximum discs from most CD releases. (a lot of 2-CD games could be 1 GD-ROM, 3 CD would be 2 GD, 4 CD probably 2 GD, 5 CD 3 GD, etc -granted the upper limit of 2 or 4 CDs would be 2 or 3 GD)
    And one thing that saves a ton of space on any such platform is removing all red book audio and replacing it with a lower bitrate compressed format (be it lower quality PCM, ADPCM, MP1, MP2, MP3, etc -Sathrn and PSX both had cases of streaming ADPCM and possibly other non redbook formats -beyond the obvious use of low bitrate audio for FMV). In the DC's case, the 45 MHz ARM CPU in the sound system is fast enough to decode MP3 streams on the fly, and 128 kbps MP3 is 11:1 compression over CD-DA. And then there's realtime sound engines as well. (and the DC has a nice chunk of audio RAM and a lot of resouce to work with on top of 64 hardware ADPCM channels)

    Removable HDD aren't quite what I mean. I'm talking about games like NFS: Most Wanted, where I would go over to a friends house, he would put his memory card into slot one, and I would put my memory card into slot two, and we would both be able to use our own customized cars.
    Hmm, I didnt even know there were such games that allowed multi-file loading. The PSX, DC, and PS2 did that? (I don't remember the GC supporting that)
    As it is, both the Xbox and 360 support memory cards (xbox via controllers like DC/N64, and 360 on 2 front slots), the only limit would be developers supporting it and users opting to buy the cards. The Wii should allow SD cards to be used for such too, again it would be up to developers to support that unless Nintendo somehow blocked it.

    Or were you already referring to the 360 when you mentioned NFS?

    It is hinged, but the entire box is cardboard. It is almost exactly like a DVD version of the Saturn/CD boxes. Again except being made out of plastic it is made out of cardboard.
    Hmm, I don't remember those DVD boxes being hinged, but using the folded cardboard to act as a hinge. (oh, and I was wrong about the DBZ movie we have, it's in a Jewel case that fits into a DVD case sized cardboard sleeve, the Pokemon Movie does use the cardboard type I'm sure, but I can't seem to find it) I did find another DVD (Lost in Space Forever) that is just folded cardboard with a plastic disc retainer piece attached to it as I rembered. (with the plastic piece including a latch to close to box)



    I think you should take another look at this picture.
    http://a.imageshack.us/img443/7166/dsc00291uv.jpg

    This case is made entirely from polyethylene, I believe. 0% cardboard. It is a clamshell design. And the second picture is to show the size of them is very close to the american long boxes. The cover is also housed behind a thin piece of plastic like modern dvd/pc cases.
    Hmm, that contradicts what Christuserloeser commented about the Saturn, unless they later switched to cardboard.

    I think this would have been great as well. Especially, if one has a collection of Sega games. The stripe design used in american games are colored differently for each system. Genesis - Red, 32X - yellow, CD - Blue, Saturn - white. I think they would have looked great placed next to each other. Unfortunately, the Genesis cases don't all use this design. When the Genesis first came out it used the master system checker design, and companies like EA totally ignored the design. Which kind of throws the collection off.
    The Genesis didn't use the master system pattern exactly, but switched to fien white lines on black rather than blue on white, much nicer. I think goign pure black/smoke could have looked nicer than the red boarder TBH. (especially if they kept the cool Genesis logo on the side rather then the block letters) The grid did look a bit off though, but nothing like the SMS... (plain white might have been good there, but the JP box designs were great, just all paper -using that formula with nice platic cases would have been great, but they screwed that up along with the box art -at least Tonka seems to have fixed the art and some other stuck in 1988 -like Miracle Warrior)

    Maybe if they made them thinner then Genesis games, but thicker then the card games, it would have given that distinctive look?
    In the US or Japan it probably wouldn't have mattered (Japan used different cases for the cards anyway -or just plastic sleeves and cardboard boxes, I'm not sure). The different color scheme alone could have been distinctive enough. Plus, as I said, the CD cases would likely need to be longer/wider to comfortably accommodate the discs.
    And if you haven't seen the card cases before:
    http://www.retrocopy.com/blog/257/se...ame-boxes.aspx
    http://www.billandchristina.com/vgam...28Small%29.JPG
    http://www.retrogamer.net/forum/view...=5579&start=54 (nice contrast of box art there too -both early and late western plus JP art)

    Isn't PC used to build the cases for the game consoles, or is that ABS?
    Which time of game console? There's tons of different plastics used, but iirc ABS is almost always black, so the common boack game consoles might be (atari, Sega, etc), but I'm not sure about lighter colored ones. (ABS also doesn't tend to have the same brittling/oxidation problem as some of the lighter plastics iirc -especially those used by Nintendo and possibly Sony for the PS1)

    I see several problems with just directly printing onto the plastic services of the case. First, it will mean retooling the ink presses for every type of new case released. Second, it leaves the ink surface exposed. Leading to wear on the artwork itself. (think of the genesis cardboard boxes) Third, they can't outsource the art printing. Right now companies can outsource the need for artwork to a printing companies, but printing companies buy paper, not cases, This would probably increase the cost of printing because buying large rolls of paper is a lot easier then buying boxes upon boxes of cases.
    Good points there.

    You mean like the Universal game boxes? These are big enough to hold CDs.

    These are made by a company that specialize in media boxes for rental companies.

    I'm afraid I was too young to remember the release of DVDs inside of Video Game stores.
    No, not exactly like that. I meant the video stores having custom DVD cases designed in the same vein as the VHS cases they'd been using for many, many years (which again, are very similar to Genesis cases) and in some cases were also using for video game carts. (at some point they started using bare carts I think)
    I didn't mean a direct adaptation, but a similar construction and clamshell design that was more suited to the size of discs. (ie wider and thinner vs VHS cases)

    Are you not familiar with the cases blockbuster video tapes were stored/rented?
    (I can't seem to find any pics online oddly enough)
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    Not a full stick perhaps, but the digital hat/nub seems like it could be replaced by a decent analog nub as well, or a small analog stick if the S button was moved a little. Or even making it pressure sensitive rather than a full throw analog stick. There's trade-offs with that of course, but the real factor would be sensitivity/accuracy/precision of it.
    You forgot ease to reproduce, ease of use, and cost of production. I'm not sure how people would accept something that is different. Just remember people rip on anything that is a little different, even if it function is perfectly normal. (ex. N64 Controller, Sat Model 1 Controller)


    Actually, for those who prefer mice, but not keyboard, one really good solution is a mouse+single handed controller with analog stick and a selection of buttons. (often added buttons on the mouse as well)
    This came up recently before.
    I still prefer the keyboard though, I like digital strafing and key tapping, but especially mapped weapons. (not to mention more complex key commands)
    I actually do this in GTA IV for PC. I normally play with the Xbox 360 controller, but at some points you shoot some people with the sniper, at which I just give up on the 360 controller and use the mouse. Though I still hold the 360 controller in my left hand.

    The other thing this makes me think of is the Wii controls, where a precision device is held in the right hand, and the other controls are held with the left. Though I can't thing of anyway to do a mouse that would work sitting on the couch, which game controls are generally made for. Unless a mouse shaped device that contained a accelerometer would work. Where X Y are the mouse movements, and Z is the up and down movements. If Z is close to zero, then the mouse is on the 'surface' and the mouse moves. If the Z is greater then zero or less then zero then the mouse is being picked up. Though this still has some flaws with it.

    An idea of a keyboard with analog buttons came to mind when I read your post.


    I remember it running in XP. Yeah, a fun game, but I could never get past that first Mars stage in the US tour (the escort one), or the first Russian stage at all for that matter.
    If you can get the PC version to work I wouldn't bother with the N64 unless you want to try the split-screen multiplayer. (might not be patched for vista, but I think it works in XP fine and/or is patched)
    I remember loving the story so much that I started using cheat codes, just so I can keep listening to the story. It was a pretty long game, I never beat it because I simply didn't have the endurance back then to play it. I say BattleZone 2 sucks simply because a lot of the gameplay elements that made BZ great where kind of lost in BZ2. It keep the basic idea, of build a recycler, collect scrap, go finish mission etc, but for some reason it just doesn't feel right.

    I want the N64 version simply because I can sit on the couch and play it. Which I find much more comfortable then sitting behind the computer. I also want a N64 simply because I have heard so much about some of the games on it and I have never played them. Donkey Kong 64, Mario 64, Perfect Dark, Super Smash Bros... Yeah, my friends tell me so much about them back in middle school and still to this day I haven't played any of them.

    My biggest worry is that the N64 version will be a cut version of the game to fit on the cart or to fit the N64's hardware. I don't remember exactly how big the game was, and I don't think it was that technologically advance. Though this would be a perfect game to restore using modern technology.


    And the only usual issue is running out of buttons and/or having annoying combos or nesting menus for some game types. (nesting menus are probably most tolerable with a point and click interface or possibly short button commands after you start memorizing them -even with a keyboard you run into that in some cases)
    I guess you will reach a equilibrium at some point. Two few buttons and you end up with, as you said, items being moved to menus or using annoying combos to compensate for them, and in some cases you end up using two controllers to play the game. (eg. N64 FPS games, Atari CVS Indiana Jones).

    If a game was made that would use every key on the keyboard, do you think the game would be enjoyable with such a high learning curve to memorize 108 keys?

    I've never really had a case where a FPS was majorly hindered by any reasonably comprehensive analog gamepad... and in some cases where it was a problem, it was due to the mapping of controls and not the controller. For example, the N64 should have allowed stick+c-buttons as standard controls. (with stick moving/strafing and C aiming/turing) There are a few cases where that is supported, but many others where it isn't, and especially with it reversed so stick aims and C moves (I think Doom 64 is stuck like that and it feels very wrong, but you can get used to it). Then there's the games that support various schemes but not that one preferable one... using the d-pad+analog stick would be OK if one could reach enough buttons, but you really can't from that position. (though more games seem to support that than the C+stick) Soem even support 2 controllers for dual analog, but that's awkward and has the same buttonless problem as d-pad+stick.
    Two controllers is actually really cool. I would have never thought of that.

    I remember, I believe, the saturn used controls similar to the N64 and its C-Buttons. Where B, C, Y, Z would emulate a second analog stick.

    You want a game that has broken controls, you really should try MDK 2 for Dreamcast.

    I really like the N64 controller, but I think the D-pad was sorely underused: it would have been a nice alternative to a lot og analog controlled games (if noting else but a fail safe for the stick wearing out ). There are a few games wich only use the d-pad and/or support it at least, Kirby Crystal Shards comes to mind.
    The only time I remember using one was when a friend gave me his broken N64 to fix. Once I fixed it the game he gave me was Star Fox. Didn't have D-Pad so I don't really know how it feels, nor would I think of any time that I would want to use it. The only games that I think really have gains from d-pads are 2d, or 2.5d games, or fighting games. Which almost all the MK games for the N64 are neutered because of the cart size.

    EDIT: Just to elaborate on this, I was fixing it for him, not him giving me a broken N64.

    People rag on the N64 controller for looking weird, but it was really quite fine: the intentin was allowing d-pad+L to be used alternately with analog+Z, and it was the few games that tried to use both analog and d-pad that made it awkward. Or that the controller only fit kids' hands, but I call BS there as the PSX controller is worse there by a good margin. (i'd argue 360 as well, perhaps SNES -which is significantly smaller than the Saturn or Genesis 6-button controller)
    I've never had a problem with the PSX controller, probably because I grew up with it. My first system was a SMS, then I got a PSOne after that. I originally intended to get a Dreamcast, but Sega pulled it off the market before I could save up the money. Which I believe were 100 dollars at the time.

    How big is the SNES controller compared to the 3-button controller? The thing I don't like about the 3-button controller is its shape serves no purpose contouring to the hands. The 6-button later addressed this issue.

    The GameCube controller did a few things things better: found a contour that really worked well with a wide range of hand sizes, added some of the best analog triggers used on any console to date (extremely fluid and with the tactile click -which was registered separately as well), built-in rumble, the analog stick not wearing too quickly and being rubberized, and having 2 analog sticks. The face buttons aren't as mash-friendly as the N64, the d-pad is nowhere near as good (though placed to allow concurrent use), the analog stick is rubberized but the shape isn't quite as comfortable in long play sessions (the too sharp edge) plus the rubber tends to wear out (vs the stick itself on the N64), and the N64 controller's contour is still decent at that. (ergonomically better than the PSX and 360, maybe a wash with the Controller S though the triggers can pinch -and duke has the problem with small hands, but I'm not in that category)
    I still don't see it though, the Duke controller is barley larger then S-Controller.

    I think some of the problems with the bigger controllers (dreamcast, xbox, mod. 1 Sat) Is they are not pick up and play, they require getting some use to. Like when I first picked up the Model 1 Saturn controllers, I liked it for the most part, but my ring and pinky finger would overlap and make it uncomfortable to use, but now I don't seem to have a problem with it. Of course, most people have never used these controllers and complain about them just to get some attention.

    N64 is WAY better than the SNES controller in pretty much every way thoug. The shoulder buttons/triggers, grips, d-pad placement, face buttons (A and B at least as they mash excellently), and then there's the expansion port and analog stick.
    I like the idea of expansion ports on the controllers. It leads to almost unlimited additions to the console, but this can also be abused.

    It can be great to keep up with advancements with technology. For example, if the Xbox 360 wanted to add motion controls, they could have simply made an expansion module that could plug into one, and the 360 control now has the same tilt features as the PS3 controller.

    I say it can be abused because rather then building the features into the controller, they will leave the feature out so you have to buy them later. That is fine as long as the expansions + the cost of the controller is the same as the cost of the competitions all-in-one controller.

    The Wavebird was great though.
    I've again, never used one, but it looks similar to the wireless 360 controller, which is a huge problem for me, because the 360 controller has a huge battery pack on the back of it, that my fingers seem to hit, and annoy me. I much prefer the wired controller because of this.


    I grew up Nintendo and PC, so lots of time with all that and various 3rd party controllers. (the NES max actually worked pretty well when new, but the discstops sliding fluidly when worn -might be able to be fixed, haven't bothered)
    I don't really like the SNES controller more than the NES pad other than maybe the d-pad and the fact it has 4 buttons. I will say that the NES pad is better than the NES2 dogbone and the US SNES pad is better than the PAL/JP SNES/SFC pads and the main reason is concave buttons: the prototype SFC pads even had concave NES type buttons and I've modded a controller to have all concave buttons, though I know some people like convex. (I love the genesis's concave buttons -one of the issues with the Saturn 3D controller was the altered buttons) The N64's a/b aren't concave, but they're barely convex and broad like the 3-button Sega controller's.
    I had never actually noticed the concave/convex nature of the controllers, and it seems that all the controllers this generation have convex buttons. Actually pulled out a Model1 Sat which has both ABC are concave, and XYZ are convex.


    They tend to be harder to find cheap online too (probably due to limited supply). I can see the problem with smaller hands, but it's my favorite controller of that generation otherwise. (again, I realized by accident that the more dome shaped right stick works better as the left stick)
    Yeah, I'm not really sure why they decided to make two different designed thumb sticks on the same controller. Seems weird to me, and the only other controller that I have seen like that is the Gamecube controller. I've never used it but I always though the Gamecube controller looked funky to me.

    But of course, They swapped back to the '360' style analog sticks, which as a mentioned before are total garbage after about a year of use, because the rubber gets polished an no longer has the ability to hold your thumb.

    Unfortunately the only one I have has an issue with the buttons which makes then have to be pressed very hard (not an issue with Halo where the fave buttons are only sparingly used, but a huge problem for Burnout 3 and some others -Spyro among others).
    For me personally, last gen it's Duke>GC>controller-S>Dual Shock2. (DC controller is a tough call due to the lack of 2nd analog stick or even added face buttons to make up for that -like C buttons or YZBC on the Saturn)
    The lack of dual analog control could have been a major issue for FPSs on the DC in the long term. (and again, not even a d-pad or face buttons to make up for that, there are alternate control schemes, but they tend to be limited, especially with the limited number of buttons)
    Looks like the Duke controller also solved the 6-buttons and a second analog stick. I think, I have actually used a Duke controller, but I'm not sure. If I remember correctly the White & Black buttons were actually really hard to reach.


    It also feels less responsive, the craziest thing was the fact that the original controllers were d-pad only...
    I don't know, I've never noticed. It could be because I grew up with it and adjusted to its crap factor.

    Is the Saturn's stick pretty loose? The Xterminator's was rather springy and short-throw as I recall, I think the broad, heavily concave shape may not work well with a larger range of motion. (ie it works fine with a D-pad -or indeed is preferable in many cases- and OK with a short through/stiff analog stick, but bad with a long-throw/loose one)
    At first the Saturn's seems loose, because the thing can rotate a pretty good deal, but as soon as you push it, it feels good and resistive. It does have a rather short throw. The concave shape was good because of the size of the controller, but the problem with the Saturn's analog stick was the texture inside the concave. It was huge rings, that were lifted way too high from the actual surface, so it essentially lowered the surface area that the thumb would touch, rather then increasing it. I actually fixed mine my putting one of those rubber stoppers you buy at walmart on it. One side is rubber and the other side is adhesive, and it like putting on a sticker. It almost makes the Saturn's analog stick perfect.

    I think the D-Pad on it is junk. It feels too loose, more like an analog stick then a d-pad. Though my 3D saturn controller looks practically brand new, because nothing is worn out on it, even though I bought it used. Maybe it just hasn't been broken in, but to some degree I would prefer a stiffer D-Pad then a loose one, but that is coming from a person who thinks the SMS d-pad is pretty good. I think the reason it is so loose feeling is it feels like it doesn't have a ball or something to rotate on. Normally you would have the 4 rubber domes and then in the middle would be a rotation point, but the 3D saturn pad doesn't feel to have this on the D-Pad. It kind of feels like it is just floating on those 4 rubber domes.


    Yeah, but then there's the single analog stick limit (and lack of supplemental buttons even) as I said above, I had overlooked that in my previous post.
    I suppose a new controller could address that. (especially since console FPSs hadn't totally standardized dual analog yet)
    Yeah, a new controller would have been a must. I think the PS1s, Dualshock controller practically sealed the faith that dual stick controllers are a must. This is where I kind of always felt that Sega had a two-step forward, but one step back mentality to them. Like the Sega CD, great it was one of the first CD consoles at the time (two step forward), but it could have also been the answer that Genesis needed to keep up with SNES. Too bad it wasn't. (one step back) 32X, Released to extend the life of the Genesis. (two step forward) It really didn't stand up against other 32bit consoles at the time. (one step back)


    It was closer to 1.2 GB I think, so not too far off what the GC did, plus there's nothing to say the density couldn't have increased a bit more too. (normal CD-ROM went from 550 MB to almost 900 MB, not to mention the rather obscure DDCD-ROM starting at 1.3 GB though never expanding on that, so unless they were pushing against the density wall for DISCs, it might have ben possible to boos that a bit more, possibly closer to 1.7-1.8 GB)
    I'm not sure if the drive could have also been capable of dual layers, usually a firmware update fixes this, but the problem was Sega stuck the OS on the disc of the game. If the game was dual layers, then it would have required some tricks to pull off. Where the OS part of the disc was single layer and ran the updated firmware, then the game itself was dual layers. Though at the time it was a good idea, because PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube didn't have the ability to update the OS. Though it is common practice today.

    And remember some Xbox and PS2 games still used CD-ROM as well, and lots of PC games. (though having 3-6 discs did get a bit annoying -we had ...
    I'm not sure about the Xbox, but I think the norm. CDs for the PS2 were the blue bottom discs. These were only available when the system first came out, and quickly died off. The only game I remember ever picking up that was blue bottom was Mr. Mosquito. Yeah, I remember there being two versions of BattleField 2, and that game isn't that old. It was either 1 DVD, or like 5-6 CDs.

    Hmm, I didnt even know there were such games that allowed multi-file loading. The PSX, DC, and PS2 did that? (I don't remember the GC supporting that)
    As it is, both the Xbox and 360 support memory cards (xbox via controllers like DC/N64, and 360 on 2 front slots), the only limit would be developers supporting it and users opting to buy the cards. The Wii should allow SD cards to be used for such too, again it would be up to developers to support that unless Nintendo somehow blocked it.

    Or were you already referring to the 360 when you mentioned NFS?
    It was the PS2 version of NFS. I don't actually remember a lot of games doing it, and I'm not sure if the DC had it. I remember a few PS1/2 games doing it though. There was a game on PS1 called YuGiOh Forbidden Memory, if I recalled correctly, where both players would play the game and collect the cards. Then if you wanted to play head to head each players card list would be on their own memory cards.

    I would think many developers today would opt out of doing this because the memory cards are more optional then they are standard.

    Hmm, I don't remember those DVD boxes being hinged, but using the folded cardboard to act as a hinge. (oh, and I was wrong about the DBZ movie we have, it's in a Jewel case that fits into a DVD case sized cardboard sleeve, the Pokemon Movie does use the cardboard type I'm sure, but I can't seem to find it) I did find another DVD (Lost in Space Forever) that is just folded cardboard with a plastic disc retainer piece attached to it as I rembered. (with the plastic piece including a latch to close to box)
    Yeah thats what the wizard of oz was. Plastic backing with cardboard wrapped around. I will have to go to my local game shop, I believe I saw a longbox PS1 game in there, that was the rigged edge one. It was Baseball or something stupid that I didn't care to buy. May just pick it up to see what the case it.

    Hmm, that contradicts what Christuserloeser commented about the Saturn, unless they later switched to cardboard.
    Saturn started of with plastic backs, wrapped in cardboard, but later swapped to these cases. The 100% plastic ones. Like I said, I believe these are the game cases that you have been looking for, for the saturn. They are close in size, but I still think they could have been a little bigger to match the US sized cases better. I got this game Imported from EU, but I think you can go on eBay and find a few EU games on there if your interested in finding one cheap to pick up.

    In the US or Japan it probably wouldn't have mattered (Japan used different cases for the cards anyway -or just plastic sleeves and cardboard boxes, I'm not sure). The different color scheme alone could have been distinctive enough. Plus, as I said, the CD cases would likely need to be longer/wider to comfortably accommodate the discs.
    And if you haven't seen the card cases before:
    http://www.retrocopy.com/blog/257/se...ame-boxes.aspx
    http://www.billandchristina.com/vgam...28Small%29.JPG
    http://www.retrogamer.net/forum/view...=5579&start=54 (nice contrast of box art there too -both early and late western plus JP art)
    Wow brilliant pictures. Yeah I think the color scheme would have been enough to offset it. I'm pretty sure the box would had to be lengthened a little to make up for the larger CD, but not too much. A cm would have done it.

    Those pictures are kind of what I was talking about when I said I don't like how they didn't keep things consistent. On the SMS everything is pretty consistent, but some games ignored the white box theme, and every game seemed to use a different Sega logo on the bottom of the box. The Genesis f'd up with changing the theme. Although I think they changed it for the better, it kind of makes the old games stick out because they don't have the stripped red. Then of course you got the jack ass companies like EA who ignored the color theme altogether and rather then putting the Genesis logo on the side, they put a bloody bar scan on it. Sega CD and Saturn games are damn near perfect. The Sega CD had one flaw and thats every company seems to use a different color, different sized, Sega CD logo. Then they f'd up again with the DC. They made the original theme white background with dreamcast logo. Then they changed it to black. Then they made the All-Stars version of games which where orange. All of it just looks horrible in a collection. To the point that I actually try to hunt down the original games to avoid the All star logo, and the later black background games. Like the original Sonic Adventure (white background) vs. the rereleased Sonic Adventure (black background). Of course some games you can't help. Like Sonic Adventure 2, 18 Wheeler, which were released after they changed the box style.


    Which time of game console? There's tons of different plastics used, but iirc ABS is almost always black, so the common boack game consoles might be (atari, Sega, etc), but I'm not sure about lighter colored ones. (ABS also doesn't tend to have the same brittling/oxidation problem as some of the lighter plastics iirc -especially those used by Nintendo and possibly Sony for the PS1)
    I was particularly thinking of the Sega Genesis, but I'm really not sure. I've always heard that ABS/PC mixed together formed a fireproof plastic, but I think that would have been too expensive to make a game console out of. So they mixed other crap into them to make the plastic fireproof. This really shows up with the SNES, because it so common to find UV stained SNES's out there. I don't think I have ever seen a UV stained PS1, so it could have been the high quality plastic, rather then using a basic ABS then throwing some ingredients into it to make it fireproof (which would later react poorly to UV light)

    No, not exactly like that. I meant the video stores having custom DVD cases designed in the same vein as the VHS cases they'd been using for many, many years (which again, are very similar to Genesis cases) and in some cases were also using for video game carts. (at some point they started using bare carts I think)
    I didn't mean a direct adaptation, but a similar construction and clamshell design that was more suited to the size of discs. (ie wider and thinner vs VHS cases)

    Are you not familiar with the cases blockbuster video tapes were stored/rented?
    (I can't seem to find any pics online oddly enough)
    I'm familiar with the VHS cases they used. I have a old Speed racer tape that used to be a BlockBuster VHS. Though I really don't remember seeing any DVDs growing up. To tell the truth the only thing I ever remember renting from the video store was Speed Racer videos , but I can't remember ever seeing DVDs in there.

    The blockbuster video tapes cases, where weird in the face that the side holding the VHS tape in place is the side that opens. Was this also the case with those DVD cases?


    UPDATE: I just bought this from the local video game store.


    As you can see the Playstation's Plastic case (not the cardboard or Saturn's case) is made out of PE and then has cardboard artwork glued to it. The case is of the same design of the Saturn's cases, except the manuel is stored on the inside, similar to DVD cases, rather then being used as a cover, like Jewel cases. This case is in rather poor condition with the cardboard falling off, and has been sold multiple times with the number of sticks on it. The thing that really pisses me off though, I just bought it and it didn't have a game in it ... lol. Need to go back and pick up the disc.
    Last edited by Xeniczone; 09-02-2010 at 04:43 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xeniczone View Post
    You forgot ease to reproduce, ease of use, and cost of production. I'm not sure how people would accept something that is different. Just remember people rip on anything that is a little different, even if it function is perfectly normal. (ex. N64 Controller, Sat Model 1 Controller)
    Yes, but that controller was in the context of PC games (actually PC and Mac), and ANY gamepad there was going to be different in some way or another.

    But in the context I was thinking: everything was new and different: the PSX controller was a considerably greater departure in many respects than the US model 1 Saturn controller. Dual analog was quite weird as well, but Sony managed to push that.
    Stuff that seems normal today was not back then and it was really up to marketing.

    FPSs didn't start regularly adopting dual analog control until a fair bit later (not really defacto-standard until the early 2000s), and for conventional keyboard and mouse controls for FPSs it was 2-axis analog (more or less) for aiming and digital for move/strafe. (Doom more or less set the standard for that, albeit it took a bit longer to really get mouse look down -Quake's set-up was a little funky)

    So everything was an experiment at that point, and indeed I've never seen any controller as comprehensive as the Xterminator.


    On another note: I actually found an almost new complete in box Xterminator with USB adapter at GoodWill for $5 and the plug-and-play set-up was flawless in Vista! (I did discover that the sidewinder USB adapter uses a different pinout than Gravis)

    Anyway, using it again, I have to say the analog stick is excellent: I'm not sure about the 3D controller, but I've never used a concave analog pad/stick that felt so right. Now the range of movement is a bit limited and I was wrong about the resistance, it's very soft (but not quite loose, a bit floaty), really nice though and very responsive. Opening it up I found that all the "analog" stuff (flippers and stick) are magnetic with no direct contact moving parts!
    Also, there's good reason for the "floaty" feel of the stick: it's quite literally on a floating mount with a large spring supporting sort of a floating hemisphere which the stick mounts on. (I can take a picture if you're interested)
    The d-pad and face buttons are all rubber/silicone dome switches, but the POV hat and under-grip triggers use microswitches.
    The only thing that might actually analog is a sliding potentiometer for the throttle. (I need to check if that has a magnet too)

    Hmm, does the Saturn 3D controller use magnetic sensors for both the triggers and the stick, or just the triggers?

    It's really been a long time since I've used one and it actually seems a little small now, maybe a little too small even, for me at least. (again, I find the Xbox duke rather comfortable)

    The other thing this makes me think of is the Wii controls, where a precision device is held in the right hand, and the other controls are held with the left. Though I can't thing of anyway to do a mouse that would work sitting on the couch, which game controls are generally made for. Unless a mouse shaped device that contained a accelerometer would work. Where X Y are the mouse movements, and Z is the up and down movements. If Z is close to zero, then the mouse is on the 'surface' and the mouse moves. If the Z is greater then zero or less then zero then the mouse is being picked up. Though this still has some flaws with it.
    Too bad the wii pointer is still a bit imprecise compared to a mouse... or more problematic: has a limited sensor range and normally acts as a cursor moving around the screen that turns when you reach the edge (and it's a fine line between turning/aiming and loosing the pointer off-screen), the advantage over an alog stick and mouse for 3rd/FPSs is the skeer on-screen cursor aiming (for games that do that), but for those keeping the crosshairs centered, the advantages are less significant. (with a mouse you have the limit of the sides of the mouse pad or your own range of motion, but I keep the sensitivity so high that I rarely lift the mouse)

    As for couch, there's 2 options: 1. use a coffee table for the mouse. 2. put the mouse pad on the couch next to you or on the arm rest depending on preference. (I prefer on the cushion next to me -I do that when using my laptop on my bed in my room too)
    Beyond that there's sitting on the floor in front of the TV or in front of the coffee table (especially a lot table) and having the mouse on the floor or table.
    For Mario Paint it was always the floor. (I usually play video games sitting on the carpet when playing in the family room, sometimes on the couch, but it depends)

    An idea of a keyboard with analog buttons came to mind when I read your post.
    You mean analog directional keys? Hmm, as it is, there are keyboards with built in analog cursor nubs (or full analog thumbpads in some cases), but those are usually limited to mouse controls, so unless you can map 2 mice in-game, that wouldn't work.

    I want the N64 version simply because I can sit on the couch and play it. Which I find much more comfortable then sitting behind the computer. I also want a N64 simply because I have heard so much about some of the games on it and I have never played them. Donkey Kong 64, Mario 64, Perfect Dark, Super Smash Bros... Yeah, my friends tell me so much about them back in middle school and still to this day I haven't played any of them.
    Heh, playing computer games on a TV should always be an option. Especially now with HDTVs... except HDMI can be a pain to use in many cases (stupid resolution limits in some cases), but VGA/DVI-A is perfect.
    Of course, that only works if you have a computer near a TV which we have always had (family computer at a desk in the family room next to the entertainment system), albeit video cards didn't start adding composite/s-video until the late 90s (but we had one like that by the time we had BZ).
    That's how we played DVDs for many years until we finally got a DVD player (we got a DVD-ROM drive in 1998 iirc, no DVD player until at least 5 years later).
    We played several games like that too, usually in cloned screen mode (scaled down obviously save for some low-res games -including some VGA games). In some cases it was so my brother and I could watch my dad play, or sort of back seat game (we did that for Return to Zork and Myst among others). We played Silent Hill 2 and 3 that way too, and Grimm Fandango and several others.
    In fact, we even had an RF adaptor to use on the cheaper TV in my parents' bedroom.

    But with HDTVs, that's a lot more flexible. (we've still got our SDTV in the family room with our old Sempron 2200 PC hooked up to S-video, but my Dad got a ~32" Sanyo LCD HDTV as the monitor on the computer in the bedroom as well as the TV -had the old Xbox and Wii in there a few times too)

    My biggest worry is that the N64 version will be a cut version of the game to fit on the cart or to fit the N64's hardware. I don't remember exactly how big the game was, and I don't think it was that technologically advance. Though this would be a perfect game to restore using modern technology.
    I think the big cuts would be in speech/sound (quality and quantity) and texture resolution. I haven't looked into it though, but the actual levels would be the last thing to cut I'd think.



    I guess you will reach a equilibrium at some point. Two few buttons and you end up with, as you said, items being moved to menus or using annoying combos to compensate for them, and in some cases you end up using two controllers to play the game. (eg. N64 FPS games, Atari CVS Indiana Jones).

    If a game was made that would use every key on the keyboard, do you think the game would be enjoyable with such a high learning curve to memorize 108 keys?
    Yeah, the only real problem is when too many buttons cramp the controller or make it uncomfortable to use. (as long as it's reasonable, the only other factor is developers not sticking to common buttons to use first before expanding to others -ie for games that need fewer buttons, stay simple and use the most accessible ones, perhaps even have the manufacturer suggest a standard layout for such games, though customized mapping is always a nice option on top of defaults -there's a ton of games I'd like more if they offered that)

    As for keyboard use: yeah, there's a point where combos make more sense, especially for logical sense: like ctrl+E is eject/bailout for most flight/space sims. (there are some other defacto standard uses too) For some things you want dedicated buttons for sure though. (I like the way most FPSs map the weapons to the number keys -and organize by sub-category for cases of large arsenals -ie 2 or 3 weapons in some categories, of course, you have some newer games that limit you to only a few weapons held at any one time, so the point is a bit moot -Halo really pushed that concept)

    Two controllers is actually really cool. I would have never thought of that.

    I remember, I believe, the saturn used controls similar to the N64 and its C-Buttons. Where B, C, Y, Z would emulate a second analog stick.
    Yeah, it would be pretty nice, but it's awkward when you need to use more buttons. (I can't rememebr how they map it, but you should at least have 4 buttons to easily reach -both start and Z buttons, so that's 3 buttons plus start and 2 analog sticks)

    And with the Saturn controller, yeah that should work OK, especially with the 3D controller, but the Dreamcast is kind of stuck: it could be OK still if you monopolized the face buttons, but you'd still only have the triggers, start, and D-pad for additional uses. (the 3D pad has all that and 2 more face buttons, but even without those, 2 analog sticks plus the d-pad could work -D-pad probably for weapon cycling and perhaps crouching and jumping if supported or additional items/options otherwise)

    The only time I remember using one was when a friend gave me his broken N64 to fix. Once I fixed it the game he gave me was Star Fox. Didn't have D-Pad so I don't really know how it feels, nor would I think of any time that I would want to use it. The only games that I think really have gains from d-pads are 2d, or 2.5d games, or fighting games. Which almost all the MK games for the N64 are neutered because of the cart size.
    Yes, for most cases analog is preferable, but digital would be nice for 2 reasons: 1. to be foolproof against analog stick wear (though that was never a big problem for us) and 2. for some games that could really use it regardless including some 2D or 2.5D games among others. (not a huge number but they're there, and I think SSB would be interesting to try with digital control -a lot of such games I tend to use the analog stick as digital anyway for maximum response -and it's often speed sensitive too, so you have to whip the analog stick around to go full speed -if you ease it in you'll never reach full speed)
    I forget if bomberman 64 supports it, but Kirby does and I know a few do.

    Regardless, it's definitely more comfortable to use than the SNES controller.

    I've never had a problem with the PSX controller, probably because I grew up with it. My first system was a SMS, then I got a PSOne after that. I originally intended to get a Dreamcast, but Sega pulled it off the market before I could save up the money. Which I believe were 100 dollars at the time.
    I recently tried the SMS again... and I'd thought the controller was OK, but now the D-pad seems really funky. (I don't remember it being so mushy and having the odd raised bumps -I remembered indentations for some reason)
    But for the PSX, I played it a lot and I could use it, but I've never liked using it and in a few cases it was really uncomfortable. (a lot worse now that my hads are bigger and tend to cramp from tight gripping too long -ring and pinky hang over the edge and have nothing to grip and thus tend to cramp from squeezing in intense/continuous play, worse than the N64 by a fair margin which has a bit of a problem with that -albeit not when my hands were smaller)

    How big is the SNES controller compared to the 3-button controller? The thing I don't like about the 3-button controller is its shape serves no purpose contouring to the hands. The 6-button later addressed this issue.
    The SNES controller is significantly smaller than the 6-button (even slightly smaller than the Japanese Jr 6-button I think), it's considerably thinner in particular.

    I like the 3-button as it's easier to grip in general, though the sides don't quite feel ideal for the upper part of the palms, it's great otherwise. (for my hands at least, the flatter sides of the SNES sometimes feel better, but the general shape and underside molding of the 3-button make the controller for me)
    The 6-button is OK, better than the SNES for sure, but overall doesn't seem better than the 3-button for me. (other than the added functionality, of course)

    I still don't see it though, the Duke controller is barley larger then S-Controller.
    It's considerably large if you use them side by side. The footprint isn't much different (but neither is the 3 button vs 6 button), but the bulk and shape is considerably more substantial: the handles are much heftier and a bit longer so you cna really grip them with big hands and not have your fingers pushing into the middle of the underside and also big enough so that your hands are fully gripping and not hanging off the edge -the later also makes me grip/dig my fingers into my palms due to nothing to hold, and then there's the general positioning for the sticks and triggers)

    I think some of the problems with the bigger controllers (dreamcast, xbox, mod. 1 Sat) Is they are not pick up and play, they require getting some use to. Like when I first picked up the Model 1 Saturn controllers, I liked it for the most part, but my ring and pinky finger would overlap and make it uncomfortable to use, but now I don't seem to have a problem with it. Of course, most people have never used these controllers and complain about them just to get some attention.
    I have the opposite problem: I have the most amount of trouble getting used to some controllers like: the Xbox controller S, every single Play Station, and the Xbox 360 controllers. Some of the curvier PSX layout inspired controllers are much more intuitive (I really like the thrustmaster firestorm), though I didn't care for Gravis's direct clone in the Gamepad Pro.

    I didn't really have trouble getting used to the N64 controller either, but I was 7 when I first used that, so I was really flexible. It seem like it's tougher to get used to some things now, possibly more so due to my hand sizes. (the PSX controllers didn't used to be so problematic and given that I rarely used the d-pad, I didn't pay too much attention)
    I didn't have too much experience with Sega stuff back in the 90s other than the Dreamcast controller, but I remember thinking the 6-button pads were a bit odd at first. (especially the Saturn model 1 with the glossy plastic...)
    I always thought the DC controller was fine though, at least for all the games I tried on it. (never played an FPS on the DC though)

    I never even had much trouble picking up the VCS joystick and using it when I got into that back ~2000. (haven't really messed with the CV or Intellivision controllers though, but the 5200's seems OK -I'll have to agree with the majority of actual users that the fire buttons are one of the bigger issues)
    The 5200's controller definitely gets a bad rap for the wrong reasons. (the big issue was the fire buttons wearing out our sticking and being too small -having button 1 and 2 mirrored on each side rather than button 1 on one side and 2 on the other)

    I like the idea of expansion ports on the controllers. It leads to almost unlimited additions to the console, but this can also be abused.
    They do tend to be underutilized: the N64 used it pretty well, the DC did it OK too, but the Xbox didn't do a whole lot with it.
    Putting the memory/expansion slots on the controllers and tying that to the controller interface probably saved cost too and is fine as long as the bandwidth is sufficient on the interface. (save cost compared to putting the memory card ports on the console, especially if you put 4 slots -and you wouldn't pack-in more than 2 controllers normally, if that)

    I've again, never used one, but it looks similar to the wireless 360 controller, which is a huge problem for me, because the 360 controller has a huge battery pack on the back of it, that my fingers seem to hit, and annoy me. I much prefer the wired controller because of this.
    Hmm, I don't remember the 360 controller having that problem... albeit I've only used the wired ones and the wireless+AA version. Not sure if the rechargeable one has a bulkier pack.
    The Wave bird adds a little bulk, but the way your hands conform to the GC controller, it's a non-issue. (your fingers tend to wrap up and around and stay well away from the added bulk -you should rarely even bump into/rub the underside of the controller at all -ie under the C-stick and D-pad)

    I had never actually noticed the concave/convex nature of the controllers, and it seems that all the controllers this generation have convex buttons. Actually pulled out a Model1 Sat which has both ABC are concave, and XYZ are convex.
    Yes, the A/B/C buttons on sega controllers are great: the buttons of the Genesis 6-button and both (non 3D) Saturn controllers are nearly identical and are fine. (the X/Y/Z are fine for how they're normally used, but not very nice to mash IMO)
    Convex or nearly flat is OK too so long as the buttons are still responsive and not stiff and especially not too small or closely spaced. (that's one thing the X-terminator loosed a bit as they buttons are a little too closely spaced)
    I need to try the 3D controller, but the buttons seem broad enough that they might be really nice: the dreamcast's buttons are nice too: convex but nicely textured with a nice responsive yet soft feel to them. (maybe better than the SNES)

    I know some people prefer the all-convex JP/EU SNES pad, but I think it feels too slippery as do the NES2/dogbone buttons. (interestingly the prototype SFC controller used 4 NES type red, concave buttons -and again I modded a controller recently to have 4 concave buttons)

    Yeah, I'm not really sure why they decided to make two different designed thumb sticks on the same controller. Seems weird to me, and the only other controller that I have seen like that is the Gamecube controller. I've never used it but I always though the Gamecube controller looked funky to me.
    Yeah, the GC looks wierd, but works great, albeit I don't like the face buttons as much as the N64 and the C-buttons were more useful than X+Y+Z (Z especially) in several cases. The C-stick looks undersized, but works surprisingly well, though the D-pad is a bit too small. (and the placement isn't ideal -otherwise it would be about as good as the GBC/GBA d-pad and better than the SP/DS d-pad -in fact it's pretty much identical to the GBA D-pad)

    But of course, They swapped back to the '360' style analog sticks, which as a mentioned before are total garbage after about a year of use, because the rubber gets polished an no longer has the ability to hold your thumb.
    Hmm, my freind's ~4 year old 360 controllers still seem fine, albeit I tend to have very dry hands. (I also tend to clean the d-pads before using them as they're rather frustrating to use when sweaty/greasy, but that's true for most controllers, even those with ridges)
    They get all satiny, but not slick, but then again, I have no problem with the d-pads of my red letter 3-button pads which are polished to the point of being reflective.

    Looks like the Duke controller also solved the 6-buttons and a second analog stick. I think, I have actually used a Duke controller, but I'm not sure. If I remember correctly the White & Black buttons were actually really hard to reach.
    Yeah, the white and black buttons are a bit out of the way, but not too bad for me at least. I actually have more problems with the controller s's white/black buttons being under my palm. (and the start/select ones too, but you get used to that eventually) It's nowhere near as good as the Sega 6-button layout. (though it would be tricky to manage that and dual analog, but I think it could have been done rather well, even if they had to make the buttons a little smaller than on the Genesis/Saturn)

    I don't know, I've never noticed. It could be because I grew up with it and adjusted to its crap factor.
    I CAN use it, and I have a fair bit, but it's definitely not a selling point for the consoles to me. (neither was the lack of 4 controller ports, especially on the PS2 -given how big a fan of party gaming I am -even LAN for 3-4 PCs at home)

    At first the Saturn's seems loose, because the thing can rotate a pretty good deal, but as soon as you push it, it feels good and resistive. It does have a rather short throw. The concave shape was good because of the size of the controller, but the problem with the Saturn's analog stick was the texture inside the concave. It was huge rings, that were lifted way too high from the actual surface, so it essentially lowered the surface area that the thumb would touch, rather then increasing it. I actually fixed mine my putting one of those rubber stoppers you buy at walmart on it. One side is rubber and the other side is adhesive, and it like putting on a sticker. It almost makes the Saturn's analog stick perfect.
    Now that I've got an Xterminator in use again, I'd have to say that the stick seems very similar to that, albeit it doesn't have the ring problem and seems far less concave and the raised rings are very subtle. (very comfortable, but maybe a little slippery if it got too greasy/sweaty) It feels best moving left/right and slightly odd for up and down until you get used to the way your thumb rolls.

    I think the D-Pad on it is junk. It feels too loose, more like an analog stick then a d-pad. Though my 3D saturn controller looks practically brand new, because nothing is worn out on it, even though I bought it used. Maybe it just hasn't been broken in, but to some degree I would prefer a stiffer D-Pad then a loose one, but that is coming from a person who thinks the SMS d-pad is pretty good. I think the reason it is so loose feeling is it feels like it doesn't have a ball or something to rotate on. Normally you would have the 4 rubber domes and then in the middle would be a rotation point, but the 3D saturn pad doesn't feel to have this on the D-Pad. It kind of feels like it is just floating on those 4 rubber domes.
    Does it feel different from the model 2 saturn or genesis 6 button?
    My genesis 6 button doesn't feel loose, but had a considerably pivot to it with a fairly wide range of motion, more like an analog stick in some respects, but very short throw. (rather start contrast to the rather stiff 3-buttons pads which I like)

    This is where I kind of always felt that Sega had a two-step forward, but one step back mentality to them. Like the Sega CD, great it was one of the first CD consoles at the time (two step forward), but it could have also been the answer that Genesis needed to keep up with SNES. Too bad it wasn't. (one step back)
    They kept up with the SNES with the Genesis alone in terms of sales and market share into 1994, but that's when they parted ways: Nintendo pushed hard for more software (and enhancement chips to some extent) to address the 1993/94 slump (DKC being part of that push) while Sega pushed with project Mars for that instead. (which was also spurred by the Jaguar/3DO and possibly the Saturn's delay/redesign)
    Well, unless you mean Japan, in which case, the Sega CD was more or less a rather successful answer to the SFC and PCE CD/Super CD, but I've seen conflicting info on that. (some pointing to fairly limited sales of the MCD, others pointing to CD software making up the vast majority of Japanese Sales for Sega by '93 -unless both are true and the Wondermega sold a huge amount in Japan, which has other implications for MD sales)

    The CD might have done better, but the cost was a big limiting factor. (and the 32x complicated thing by the time it was really getting reasonably affordable)

    32X, Released to extend the life of the Genesis. (two step forward) It really didn't stand up against other 32bit consoles at the time. (one step back)
    The bigger step back was the conflicts with the Saturn, otherwise the 32x could, more or less have stood up fairly well in the lower-end/budget category through the Generation. (albeit it could have been a lot more cost effective and useful than it was -but probably couldn't have been given the ~5/6 month design cycle) But there's a lot more hypothetical stuff there too.

    I'm not sure if the drive could have also been capable of dual layers, usually a firmware update fixes this, but the problem was Sega stuck the OS on the disc of the game. If the game was dual layers, then it would have required some tricks to pull off. Where the OS part of the disc was single layer and ran the updated firmware, then the game itself was dual layers. Though at the time it was a good idea, because PS2, Xbox, and Gamecube didn't have the ability to update the OS. Though it is common practice today.
    I'm not talking dual layer as CD-ROM doesn't work so much like that, but just higher data density (more sectors), not the same thing as dual layer as it's packing the sectors tighter, not much else, though a firmware update might still be needed: putting lower density data for the OS section probably wouldn't be too tough to do.
    As it is, CD-ROM went from 550 MB to 650 MB to 700 MB to 790 MB to 870 MB, though CD-Rs don't commonly go past 700. Sony's double density CD format was 1300 MB though the method used was somewhat different from GD-ROM. (GD-ROM was pretty much all about using shorter pit length while DDCD did that to a less extreme extent as well as narrowing the track width; increasing capacity in that respect and be pushed as far as the hardware is precise enough to manage reading -so somewhat dependent on the drive, and I don't think all standard CD-ROM drives could read DDCDs even with the proper firmware -albeit the same is true for GD-ROMs)
    And if they could do something like with DDCD (ie narrow the track width), that could increase GD-ROM capacity by close to 50%. (more if they could push beyond what DDCD did -again, they'd already gone far beyond DDCD in terms using denser sectors)

    I would think many developers today would opt out of doing this because the memory cards are more optional then they are standard.
    Many users I know have at least 1 flash card in the 360, though in many cases that was because they initially got an early lower-end unit with no HDD.
    But yeah, it would be up to developers to support it. (if there was enough support and enough interest in local multiplayer as such, it could drive up popularity for using memory cards in general -even if just for profile/save data -and 256 MB is fine for a ton of that)

    Saturn started of with plastic backs, wrapped in cardboard, but later swapped to these cases. The 100% plastic ones. Like I said, I believe these are the game cases that you have been looking for, for the saturn. They are close in size, but I still think they could have been a little bigger to match the US sized cases better. I got this game Imported from EU, but I think you can go on eBay and find a few EU games on there if your interested in finding one cheap to pick up.
    Oh, nice, EU users shouldn't complain that much then. I wonder when they made the switch. (you'd think they'd have switched to cheaper stuff later in not the other way around)

    Those pictures are kind of what I was talking about when I said I don't like how they didn't keep things consistent. On the SMS everything is pretty consistent, but some games ignored the white box theme, and every game seemed to use a different Sega logo on the bottom of the box. The Genesis f'd up with changing the theme.
    A lot of that was due to regional differences (note the Tectoy esuff especially, but there were other exceptions). You had a LOT of varying NES boxes with 3rd parties (iirc Activision used gold boxes among other things).

    But given that no one else used plastic cases, they were pretty distinctive nonetheless... granted that changed with the paper boxes, but those kept with the red (or blue in EU) scheme as well. (I do like the old Mega Drive/Genesis logo better though, and the smoke/black color scheme. (maybe just remove the grid -Sonic 2 used a checkerboard patter rather than grid)

    Then of course you got the jack ass companies like EA who ignored the color theme altogether and rather then putting the Genesis logo on the side, they put a bloody bar scan on it.
    EA games (that I have) have a small genesis logo on the side above the bar code. (road rash II and jungle strike)
    Sonic 2 had a bar code in the same place, or at least my copy does, and thus shrinks down the Geneiss logo (not as much as EA) and moves it up a bit. (it makes it a bit less attractive on the shelf though)
    For EA games, there's no Genesis logo at all on the front though (I think Accolade or Acclaim do that too), but just the Sega seal and text at the bottom listing it as a Genesis game.
    EA game boxes look pretty nice, though a bit busy at times, and the manuals are nice too, a bit wider to fill more of the box than Sega ones -more like the size of SNES/N64 manuals -or modern manuals in DVD cases. (and still used glossy paper for the full manual when Sega had switched to goign only color+gloss on the cover and cheap Xeroxed pages inside -and Xeroxed covers for even later releases -the SNES switched to all B/W too, but kept the quality printing on glossy paper)

    Sega CD and Saturn games are damn near perfect. The Sega CD had one flaw and thats every company seems to use a different color, different sized, Sega CD logo.
    For Core games, Stellar Fire, and Silpheed, the Sega CD logos look identical in size while being white for Core and pale gray for the other 2. (from the pictures I've seen, that seems similar as wel, but maybe I'm missing something)
    http://www.rfgeneration.com/images/treasure_chronicles/Sega%20CD%20and%20Saturn%20games%20trades%20and%20 $20.JPG
    http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3573/...f695f25b_o.jpg
    http://www.wiskate.com/news/data/upimages/games_2.jpg

    I was particularly thinking of the Sega Genesis, but I'm really not sure. I've always heard that ABS/PC mixed together formed a fireproof plastic, but I think that would have been too expensive to make a game console out of. So they mixed other crap into them to make the plastic fireproof. This really shows up with the SNES, because it so common to find UV stained SNES's out there. I don't think I have ever seen a UV stained PS1, so it could have been the high quality plastic, rather then using a basic ABS then throwing some ingredients into it to make it fireproof (which would later react poorly to UV light)
    Actually the Nintnedo stuff isn't UV stained, it's plain oxidation and happens in the absence of light (might be exacerbated by UV though). It's NOT like some other things like old Apple products that yellow only from UV exposure.
    Otherwise the inside of my NES wouldn't be yellower than the outside.

    It varies by batch too: some never yellow, some yellow very badly but don't turn brittle, other turn brittle, and some take on a pale tinge and go brittle. (I'm not sure, but it seems the latter case that gets the most brittle, or at least I've seen a lot more of that type get cracked/chipped)

    The blockbuster video tapes cases, where weird in the face that the side holding the VHS tape in place is the side that opens. Was this also the case with those DVD cases?
    Oh, you mean how the tape tends to fall out as soon as you open those cases? (ie it's loose when the box is not closed)
    No, as I recall, the DVD cases had locking spindles like CD jewel cases/other DVD cases, so opening it up had no impact on the disc holding mechanism. (sort of like Sega cart cases too, but unlike blockbusters's custom NES clam shell cases which leave the cart loose when opened more like with the VHS tapes)
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

  8. #83
    Master of Shinobi cheaterdragon1's Avatar
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    You know this thread originally died because no one wanted to read those long posts.
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    basicly lol.

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    Yeah, that's absurd! I can't even imagine how long it would take to type all that too...
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