Review of Retro Gamer's 32X "Retroinspection"

[sheath]

Diversification, and product placement in the budget 32-bit market half a decade before the mainstay 32-bitters would be anywhere near that price point. Giving Genesis owners one more reason to keep buying games for the system while eliminating every snivelling gripe against the "aging" hardware. Providing a cost effective alternative to expensive chipped games that reduces in cost with every game purchased. The consumer didn't buy Virtua Racing SVP, but they did buy the 32X, at least through the end of 1994.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Again, I think the alternate history I posted a few pages back is probably the most realistic and best option Sega should have gone with.

A revised Game Gear would have been nice too though. That could have possibly breathed new life into the system.

As for TA I think he's just listened to his own perception of the truth for so long that he's come to believe it as fact himself. I remember not too long ago we had a huge argument with him over transparencies in Sonic R. Even after going extremely in depth with out it was done, he was still convinced they were all dithered transparencies.

[sheath]

Alternate histories are a joke. We don't have all of the details on the table to dabble with history like that. We can change one detail, like Sega not dropping the 32X when the Saturn launched in the West. We cannot go back and eliminate or redesign all products ever and predict how they would have sold. That is impossible. If companies could predict how well a product could sell there would be no failures.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

The only changes I made where that the Expansion port would be able to expand CRAM, which would be stupidly easy most likely. The other I made was that the Sega CD would expand CRAM thanks to the modified expansion port. The biggest let down with the Sega CD was that it didn't enhance colors. By doing that the system would have probably been much more well received, and with the right marketing push, things could have been radically different.

[sheath]

And in how was Sega going to get the Sega CD to take over the Genesis market without any slippage? How were they going to stop the press from railing on them for essentially replacing their platform a mere two years after launch? What about all of those FMV games (which aren't really that many, but the press made everybody think so)? Why did Sega not include the option for CRAM expansion in the first place? Why did Sega not include more CRAM in the first place? Backward compatibility? Did Sega really need backward compatibility?

Half of these questions we don't even have answers for in real history.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

The answer for why they didn't expand CRAM is simple. There were no traces on the expansion port to do it. Hence why I said they should have been included. The only way to have done it would have been how it was done with the 32X with a separate way of rendering Sega CD Video overtop Genesis Video with an AV Passthrough cable. Which would have probably been more expensive and not a desirable solution.

My guess for them not including the traces for the expansion in the first place were because they didn't know what they were going to do with that port. In fact early MegaDrive publications in Japan show a Floppy Disk Drive being planned instead. If I remember correctly, the Expansion port is pretty much a 2nd Cartridge Port with what it allows.

And I never said it would be an instant replacement, I said it would be a gradual one where by 1993/1994 all new Genesis Systems that were being sold would instead be Combo units like the PC-Engine Duo systems. I didn't say the Genesis would be abandoned 2 years after launch, I said the Sega CD would be set up to do better in the long run so by 1993/1994 Sega wouldn't have had a need for a 32X, when they could just push the Sega CD more.

[sheath]

A Sega CD that eliminated the Genesis VDPs limitation to four palettes on screen would have made a second Genesis add-on never be conceived. Really, a better marketed real world Genesis Sega CD combo could have done the same. Of course, the Sega CD needed to not be so absurdly expensive around the world as to stain its image from the start. And FMV games needed to not be en vogue at the time of its launch, and Nintendo needed to not string Sony and Panasonic along for a SNES CD-ROM upgrade, baiting consumers to wait the entire time. Also, the Sega CD would not have become the "budget 3D" add-on that the 32X was designed for, and thus would not have countered the Jaguar (remember, it was seen as a threat).

I really think our time would be better spent uncovering more of actual history than musing over narratives and alternates. But there is the alternate history thread for that.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Yes, the Sega CD was expensive when it came out, however increasing the CRAM would have made that cost a bit more worthwhile. Consumers would then be getting a System that bested the SNES in every technical aspect, instead of paying $300 for a system that was only someone as good.

If the Sega CD addressed the Color issue was well as everything else it already did, I think it would have negated the need for the 32X. Sega could have gotten something to counter the Jaguar with a much cheaper solution using SVP in some carts as well as possibly doing an SVP/RAM cart route similar to what the PC-Engine CD did.

[Thenewguy]

Diversification

Diversification is pretty useless when all you're doing is cannibalising your own userbase and splitting it in two different directions.

Obviously the 32X, being that it requires the Mega Drive to work, is not going to be attracting new customers to your brand, its just sending a lot of Sega owners another direction before the release of Saturn.

product placement in the budget 32-bit market half a decade before the mainstay 32-bitters would be anywhere near that price point.

I would rather save up for the "real deal" than blow $160 (which is still a respectable amount of money) on something with ass looking untextured polygons, at a time when all the magazines are showing nice screenshots of textured games on upcoming systems.

People knew about the Saturn ages before it arrived in the US, they had ample time to save, and if Sega were worried about losing customers due to price they should've just designed the damn Saturn in a more cost effective manner in the 1st place.

And anyway the Atari Jaguar was far better value for money when the 32X launched, you got an actual full console (not a silly add-on which required another system) with more impressive graphics, controllers and a game bundled with the system, so even in the budget market the 32X was crap.

On top of that everyone (including Sega) had been going on about how rubbish, and how outdated cartridges were for bloody years at that stage, they looked ridiculous when they released 32X

On top of that Sega had already released one add-on which they had promised much with but achieved very little, so most people immediately took the standpoint "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" before they'd even seen the 32X.

32X was just a really dumb idea in all aspects, I was about to say "maybe if it was released along with the 3DO and Jaguar in 1993 it might've had a chance" but honestly, I can't even bring myself to say that, the Mega CD is simply a much, much better add-on for life-support anyway.

Providing a cost effective alternative to expensive chipped games that reduces in cost with every game purchased.

If we're talking about end of generation lifesupport, people don't buy enough games to make the 32X better value for money than the SVP, how many SFX chip games did the average SNES fan buy? two? three? Would you rather have a 32X with nothing or 3 games?

The biggest let down with the Sega CD was that it didn't enhance colors. By doing that the system would have probably been much more well received, and with the right marketing push, things could have been radically different.

The biggest let down was simply that the scaling and rotation features were not used, that's it. Thunderstrike got tons of high praise when it was released, and was extremely popular with Mega-CD owners at the time. Every time magazines reviewed Mega CD games afterwards they bemoaned how much of a let down they were in comparison to Thunderstrike.

Also, the Mega CD would not have become the "budget 3D" add-on that the 32X was designed for, and thus would not have countered the Jaguar (remember, it was seen as a threat).

I don't see it as realistic that anyone in the know, with even slight contacts in the industry could ever think of the Jaguar as being a threat, the system sold 250,000 for gods sake, and it still had shortages, Atari didn't even have the resources to manufacture enough of the systems to be competitive in the 1st place! 32X came out at the end of 1994, by that stage it must've been blatantly obvious that none of the major companies intended to support Jaguar.

[sheath]

Diversification is pretty useless when all you're doing is cannibalising your own userbase and splitting it in two different directions.

Obviously the 32X, being that it requires the Mega Drive to work, is not going to be attracting new customers to your brand, its just sending a lot of Sega owners another direction before the release of Saturn.

Cannibalizing userbases is what corporations do, they bleed consumers dry on whatever product they keep buying until the trend changes, then they create whatever else people want and keep doing it. This accusation is journalistic nonsense just like the "splitting" markets argument. The Saturn, and the PS1, were only ever going to be for early adopters until 1996. This is a fact proven by sales figures. The 32X was meant to fill that gap and prevent the Jaguar or 3DO from taking it.

I would rather save up for the "real deal" than blow $160 (which is still a respectable amount of money) on something with ass looking untextured polygons, at a time when all the magazines are showing nice screenshots of textured games on upcoming systems.

Great, I would have rather waited on the Saturn for at least a year and enjoyed all of the enhancements the 32X provided. My local rental shops had most of the games, and I really wanted Doom and Virtua Racing Deluxe. Shadow Squadron later sealed the deal, making the add-on one of my favorite "platforms" for the rest of the decade.

People knew about the Saturn ages before it arrived in the US, they had ample time to save, and if Sega were worried about losing customers due to price they should've just designed the damn Saturn in a more cost effective manner in the 1st place.

Nobody knew the Saturn was going to launch in May until May, the early launch even left retailers out in the dry. There was every reason to know that the Saturn was going to be over $300 when it did launch, and that the 32X was going to be $160 or less in the meantime. If anything, the Saturn would have gradually cannibalized 32X sales as the cost came down.

And anyway the Atari Jaguar was far better value for money when the 32X launched, you got an actual full console (not a silly add-on which required another system) with more impressive graphics, controllers and a game bundled with the system, so even in the budget market the 32X was crap.

On top of that everyone (including Sega) had been going on about how rubbish, and how outdated cartridges were for bloody years at that stage, they looked ridiculous when they released 32X

I don't recall Sega or anybody else in the industry calling carts garbage at the time. There was all kinds of talk about CD-ROM being better, and CD-ROMs being the future, but the coexistence of carts and CD-ROM was pretty much assumed for that generation. This is evidenced in the industry biggest player sticking to carts with the N64. Please, no hindsight glasses, and the N64 really didn't fail either unless the Genesis failed too.

On top of that Sega had already released one add-on which they had promised much with but achieved very little, so most people immediately took the standpoint "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me" before they'd even seen the 32X.

You talk as if you have spoken to "most people". That is journalistic nonsense at its worst.

32X was just a really dumb idea in all aspects, I was about to say "maybe if it was released along with the 3DO and Jaguar in 1993 it might've had a chance" but honestly, I can't even bring myself to say that, the Mega CD is simply a much, much better add-on for life-support anyway.

Except that it was cheaper than the Jaguar by $90 at launch, did most of what the Jaguar did at least as well, approached 3DO video quality with the Sega CD, allowed Genesis owners to play 3D games and Arcade ports with little to no concessions at a time when nobody else was offering this, and so on.

The only thing really dumb about the discussion is how many times opinions keep getting repeated as facts.

If we're talking about end of generation lifesupport, people don't buy enough games to make the 32X better value for money than the SVP, how many SFX chip games did the average SNES fan buy? two? three? Would you rather have a 32X with nothing or 3 games?

You are assuming that the sales of expensive SNES chipped carts are representative of regular 32X game sales. Remember, 32X games were regular Genesis priced outside of bloated mail in catalogs, not SNES cart priced.

I don't see it as realistic that anyone in the know, with even slight contacts in the industry could ever think of the Jaguar as being a threat, the system sold 250,000 for gods sake, and it still had shortages, Atari didn't even have the resources to manufacture enough of the systems to be competitive in the 1st place! 32X came out at the end of 1994, by that stage it must've been blatantly obvious that none of the major companies intended to support Jaguar.

Then you simply aren't taking the historical discussion seriously. Atari's comeback console was discussed in nearly every issue of every US gaming magazine from 1990 on. There were HUGE expectations for what would happen if Atari released another console. Far more articles exist from this time about Atari releasing a new console than Sony.

[Da_Shocker]

You keep missing the fact that the 32X was the only thing to keep Sega's revenue from dropping in 1994. What resources were they going to use exactly if the 32X was never released? Do you think the Japanese government would have lent them the millions they needed to stay competitive?

As for the 32X library being released on the Saturn instead, I call bull on that. System launches create unique games that otherwise wouldn't exist. Doom was a timed exclusive for PS1, or at least almost definitely was. Stellar Assault is basically a totally different game on the Saturn. Tempo is also. Virtua Racing is also. Any game they wanted to bring to the Saturn they could have with minimal effort, but they chose not to.

Companies revenue drops all of the time. It's nothing new at all and it happens to very company. I never heard anything about Doom being a timed exclusive on the PSx. As for the other games I don't get your infatuation with this unique shit. Chaotix is helluva lot more unique than Sonic 1-3 and Kunckles. Hell Sonic Spinball is more unique than the other and you can say that Sonic CD with time traveling aspect is more unique than the traditional Sonic games. But being unique doesn't mean it's a good game. As just about everybody knows what Sonic games are good and which ones aren't *cough* unique *choke*.

Sheath I sure you have seen the interview that was published in NG with Tom Kalinske chastising the N64 for using carts then praising the same cart using 32X. That is what thenewguy is talking about.

[sheath]

Companies revenue drops all of the time. It's nothing new at all and it happens to very company. I never heard anything about Doom being a timed exclusive on the PSx. As for the other games I don't get your infatuation with this unique shit. Chaotix is helluva lot more unique than Sonic 1-3 and Kunckles. Hell Sonic Spinball is more unique than the other and you can say that Sonic CD with time traveling aspect is more unique than the traditional Sonic games. But being unique doesn't mean it's a good game. As just about everybody knows what Sonic games are good and which ones aren't *cough* unique *choke*.

Finally we agree on something! I could just run on about that in typical internet argument fashion, but I'd rather just celebrate the small things. I also choose to ignore for this one post that for you "good" means top selling mass market appealing AAA game, as I enjoyed repeatedly playing through every game you just mentioned.

[Thenewguy]

Cannibalizing userbases is what corporations do

Corporations look for ways to increase userbase, and attract new customers, they don't look for ways to split up what they already have.

The 32X was meant to fill that gap and prevent the Jaguar or 3DO from taking it.

The Jaguar and 3DO didn't have a chance in hell of being dangerous and this was clear by 1994, the 3DO was a laughable $700 at launch, and had completely lost momentum by the time it became affordable, and Atari struggled to even manufacture a couple hundred thousand Jaguars in a two year period ffs, on top of that magazines were filled with interviews where 3rd parties went on about how they were least interested in supporting Jaguar and were taking a "wait and see" approach, by 1994 it was clear that the Jaguar had serious problems with software support and was going nowhere fast.

That whole early era was a complete waste of time.

Great, I would have rather waited on the Saturn for at least a year and enjoyed all of the enhancements the 32X provided.

If you were so bent on upgrading systems every few years you should've bought a PC.

I don't recall Sega or anybody else in the industry calling carts garbage at the time. There was all kinds of talk about CD-ROM being better, and CD-ROMs being the future, but the coexistence of carts and CD-ROM was pretty much assumed for that generation.

The entirety of their Mega CD sales pitch in interviews was based on how costly and inferior cartridges were.

Magazines also jumped on the idea of CDs being the future waay earlier, they were enamoured with the idea of CD system's before the Mega-CD was even released.

This is evidenced in the industry biggest player sticking to carts with the N64.

and Nintendo were met with a ton of skepticism too, but they were, as you say the biggest player in the market.

Except that it was cheaper than the Jaguar by $90 at launch

Jaguar had already been price cut by late 1994 to $230, and was price cut again by May 1995 to $160

did most of what the Jaguar did at least as well

Pffft, Jaguar had virtually no talented programmers working on it, and had a really nasty development environment, whilst 32X was supported by Sega, one of the most talented companies in the industry, and yet Jaguar graphics still looked better than 32X graphics most of the time.

The only thing really dumb about the discussion is how many times opinions keep getting repeated as facts.

You mean how many times basic-level common sense is repeated as facts

You are assuming that the sales of expensive SNES chipped carts are representative of regular 32X game sales. Remember, 32X games were regular Genesis priced outside of bloated mail in catalogs, not SNES cart priced.

32X cost $160 alone with no games, you could buy 2 and a half SFX games for that price anyway, and 2 or 3 were all most people ended up buying in the 1st place.

By the time you got one game for the 32X you'd spent $200, enough to have three SFX games with money left over, every time you buy a 32X game you're recouping a measly $10-$20, it would be bloody ages before you'd make up for the cost of the unit itself, and be able to gain better value for money.

The whole SFX thing was just to create an interim period of a couple of years before the new console came out, back then most people weren't going to buy 9 or 10 games in a 1 or 2 year period, I only managed to scrounge together 12 odd Mega Drive games in a 4 year period at the time!

There were HUGE expectations for what would happen if Atari released another console. Far more articles exist from this time about Atari releasing a new console than Sony.

before release there were expectations sure, but by mid 1994 everybody in the industry knew that the Jaguar had had it, just read interviews with 3rd parties, or some of the system profiles done at the time.

Atari weren't in a position to be releasing a console. Period.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Well, it did come up in the interview with Scott Bayless that Sega of Japan did intend 32X to counter the Jaguar. Whether or not that was a smart reason though is entirely up for debate.

[Team Andromeda]

SoA being in the dark about Saturn development was implied by the Retrogamer article and postulated by me in this thread. Once we knew that SoA new the Saturn would launch in 1994 as early as May 1994 we also knew that Sega had plenty of time to scrap the 32X before it went too far into development and marketing.

Huh ? Its going nothing to do wuth Retro gamer . A few here loved to make out that that SEGA America were kept in the dark about the Saturn. Only until did I produce scans and articles showing the time line and how SEGA America and Japan showed off the Saturn was that view changed . Now I have 2 interviews with SEGA's then product developer saying how over 50 Saturn development kits had been set out in 1994 in the UK . Sure not much , but again blows apart the myth some like to make out there that Saturn developers didn't kit their kits until 1995, all the more laughable really when products like Bug came out in early 1995.

You are going to have to show this, find the sales figures or a quote.

What is this ? No corp cans a product that is making them money and selling well at retail . Now I really can't be bothered to post all the press cuttings or the various scans of Game shops massive discounting their 32X products . All I will say is it was clear to anyone around in spring of 1995 that walked in to the shops, that the 32X was a doomed system. And as someone than went to California in the summer is was clear too , that the situation in America was not better.

The 32X shared the same retail space with the Jaguar and 3DO, which makes sense because it was always going to be a niche market in an interim generation anyway

I can't believe that statement. Looking over those systems were utter failure(which says it all) Listen to SEGA America and Tom the 32X was going to out sell the Saturn and PS by massive ammounts and be the only true next gen mass market systems . So don't give me this utter tosh , about the system being planned as niche system . In fact I think SEGA spent over £30 million pushing the system too

This is all speculation, and some of it doesn't make any sense. Sega took the time and R&D to release Kolibri, Virtua Fighter, and Spiderman Web of Fire on the 32X after the company had canceled the unit.

Not Speculation at all . Look at any Mag scan and seeing 32X products being massively discounted in summer of 1995 , and the fact that SEGA still produced or published the likes of Virtual Fighter , Kolibri shows they still tried to support it to the end . And no Virutal Fighter did not come out after SEGA cancelled the unit at all . So lets put that lie and myth to bed for starters

Well yeah, the Mega CD and Sega CD remained at retail for at least three years, of course it sold more units and had higher selling games.

What is this sheer nonsense? . The PC-Eng CD Rom came out in 1998 a full 3 years before the Mega CD launched, when did it lauch in USA 1990 another 2 to 3 years before the SEGA. So on those scores the PC End CR Rom should have sold more units and have had the more million seller games, only it didn't . So we need to stop the miss truths about the canning of the 32X early and need to get our facts straight on the PC-Eng Cd Rom Mega CD.


Then maybe we can have a debate

We can publish every fact with references and he just sticks his fingers in his ears and yammers

I publish facts unlike you . Or do you know more than SEGA Europe then product developer Mike Borgan confirmed than in June 1994 50 Saturn development kits had been sent to the UK developers and 3rd parties . So by all means you keep posting the lies and I'll keep posting facts .