Review of Retro Gamer's 32X "Retroinspection"

[Team Andromeda]

This is the trailer I was thinking of, I couldn't find a high def version of it from an actual E3. It has been so long since I have played the game,

And that trailer like BUNGiE said was smoke and mirror's and what we got in final game was cut back when it had to be fitted in the X-Box Ram

The 32X could do Mario 64 at about 15-20FPS

The PS and Saturn could have done some sort of version of Mario - The point is you lose so much in the down grade that it makes not worth while .

because somebody brought up the absurd statement that because multiplatform 32X games like MKII used the Genesis too much the 32X never would have done better.

Ok fair point, but lets not overplay the 32X In almost every dept it was less powerful than the Saturn or PS

[kool kitty89]

While I don't think it was responsible for killing Sega as a console maker, I do think it did hurt the Saturn initially, and some of the 32X games would have been better as Saturn Launch titles. Though if Sega had handled the Saturn properly the 32X wouldn't have been a problem.

I agree here . . . Sega's mistakes with the Saturn are largely what made the 32x as much of a problem as it was (though the 2 really exacerbated eachother -and both were significantly flawed in some important aspects -not speaking just in technical terms), and the mistakes made with the Saturn were the far more fateful ones in the end. (including the horribly managed/timed US launch)

However, those problems, in general, stem from the bigger fundamental set of problems Sega had by that point (and had been building up to throughout the Genesis's life -and some of those problems/issues pre-existed the MD too).

They lacked general stability as a whole: there wasn't enough communication or cooperation/planning done on an international level (especially important as the western divisions became more and more successful -and their input not only became more valid, but also critically necessary), there wasn't enough emphasis on maximizing long-term profitability (a problem for SoA's management too, though in a somewhat different context), and those issues directly resulted in the untempered hardware releases, heavy (yet inconsistent/unbalanced) investment spending, conflicting issues on software development (especially with the Saturn), problematic support for several platforms (pretty much everything released after the MD and before the DC), and more.

I wonder if Mike Katz's time at Sega is a bit indicative of some of those problems . . . if nothing else, he was certainly more direct/straightforward when it came to business negotiations and delegation (including communication/reports made to SoJ management), and that was apparently the very issue that led to him being replaced.
I wonder if Tom Kalinske's alternate manner of dealing with things ended up sidestepping/masking (and thus fostering) some of the very problems that would later hurt Sega so severely rather than addressing the problems before disaster struck. (Kalinske also seems to have been looser with spending, another possible argument for his problems at Sega -albeit a different issue than the relations/communication thing)

[Team Andromeda]

I agree here . . . Sega's mistakes with the Saturn are largely what made the 32x as much of a problem as it was (though the 2 really exacerbated eachother -and both were significantly flawed in some important aspects -not speaking just in technical terms), and the mistakes made with the Saturn were the far more fateful ones in the end. (including the horribly managed/timed US launch)

The 32X was the trouble, yeah for sure the Saturn launch and tools could have been better but that could have been said of the PS and PS3 . The trouble was 32X was splinting SEGA's limited money and resources and sending out a mixed and confused message. Even the likes of SONY and NCL strudel to support both multi platforms with SONY admitting its PSP support should and could have been better, In-House PS2 support lacking after the PS2 and NCL have had a real hard time trying to support the 3DS, DS and Wii Yet people somehow expected SEGA to support the Mega Drive, Mega CD, Saturn , Arcade and the 32X all at the same time . No corp could do that and history shows its always better to make a clear break with Hardware and focus on 1 major platform for the home market

That was the downfall, it should have been the Saturn and all about making games and getting PR for that system , like SEGA dropped the Saturn support with the DC, MS dropping the X-Box for the 360 and NCL dropping the NES for the SNES ECT . Fore sure SEGA would have lost out to SONY not matter, but I'm so sure SEGA could have came a decent 2nd place in all the major markets if its 100% focused support and PR all towards the Saturn

[Da_Shocker]

The 32X was the trouble, yeah for sure the Saturn launch and tools could have been better but that could have been said of the PS and PS3 . The trouble was 32X was splinting SEGA's limited money and resources and sending out a mixed and confused message. Even the likes of SONY and NCL strudel to support both multi platforms with SONY admitting its PSP support should and could have been better, In-House PS2 support lacking after the PS2 and NCL have had a real hard time trying to support the 3DS, DS and Wii Yet people somehow expected SEGA to support the Mega Drive, Mega CD, Saturn , Arcade and the 32X all at the same time . No corp could do that and history shows its always better to make a clear break with Hardware and focus on 1 major platform for the home market

That was the downfall, it should have been the Saturn and all about making games and getting PR for that system , like SEGA dropped the Saturn support with the DC, MS dropping the X-Box for the 360 and NCL dropping the NES for the SNES ECT . Fore sure SEGA would have lost out to SONY not matter, but I'm so sure SEGA could have came a decent 2nd place in all the major markets if its 100% focused support and PR all towards the Saturn

QFT! I'm pretty sure that is why SoJ dropped support for everything and focused on the Saturn they were tired of all of those systems that weren't even worthwhile in Japan. Oh yeah you for forgot the Game Gear and 32XCD. Then Genesis sadly got caught in SoJ firestorm and was canned to. And LOL at the thought of Mario 64 making it to the 32X. But then again VF2 was on the Genesis and we all know how that turned out.

[sheath]

We have been through this, I think in this very thread. The facts were that Sega had seen year on year decline for two solid years going into 1994. The 32X launch put Sega's revenues over Nintendo's for 1994. Without the 32X Sega's revenue going into the Saturn launch would have been lower than Nintendo. That would have meant that Sega would_not have had as much money to launch the Saturn with, period, unless they found some venture capital. Revenue is easier to reuse than venture capital by a wide margin.

In case nobody noticed, Arcades were in decline world wide, so Sega was spending tons of revenue developing amusement parks to keep that side of the business up.

Aside from that, I am sure that Sega weighed supporting, marketing and developing for the Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, Game Gear and Pico, versus the Saturn and decided to cancel everything but the Saturn as a result. In the US, that was the wrong decision as neither the Saturn or PS1 became mass market consoles until the end of 1996.

[Team Andromeda]

The 32X launch put Sega's revenues over Nintendo's for 1994. Without the 32X Sega's revenue going into the Saturn launch would have been lower than Nintendo. That would have meant that Sega would_not have had as much money to launch the Saturn with, period, unless they found some venture capital. Revenue is easier to reuse than venture capital by a wide margin.

I've seen some spin , but this takes the some beating . SEGA launched the Saturn in 1994 and in lots of cases at the end of the console life you seen decline in sales SEGA was still making massive amounts of money and so would have plenty for the Saturn even with out the 32X and btw no-way was the Arcades in decline in 1994 and to make out otherwise is laughable , SEGA were making a fortune in the Arcades in 1994 and 1995 with Daytona USA, SEGA Rally and VF II being some its most popular coin ups its its history and the Market was growing not just in the West , but Asia and S.America

Aside from that, I am sure that Sega weighed supporting, marketing and developing for the Genesis, Sega CD, 32X, Game Gear and Pico, versus the Saturn and decided to cancel everything but the Saturn as a result. In the US, that was the wrong decision as neither the Saturn or PS1 became mass market consoles until the end of 1996.

Here we go again the Spin . For starts no console becomes mass-market until a couple of years into it's life , not even the Mega Drive . All consoles will sell to hardcore and the more dedicated gamer and the system then becomes massmarket when the price cuts kick and the software picks up . Also SEGA did support the 32X , Mega Drive right through 1994/5 and that what cost SEGA so dear . SEGA cancelled everything when it was far too late, you do that before you launch your console to make sure it has the games and the PR backing to carry it through , which SEGA did not with the Saturn.

[sheath]

What makes you confident of that sort of performance, and in what context? (ie without using fast ROMs or added RAM . . . and even with those advantages you'd still have significant issues to consider)

Also remember there's more than just graphics to consider, but the game logic/AI/etc beyond the demo-level rendering end of things. (even if you cut SM64 down to 1/2 the polygon count, few/no textures, and no gouraud-shading -and perhaps lower resolution- you'd still have those other issues to consider . . . same for croc)

With arbitrary cuts to graphics and draw in I am absolutely confident that Croc and Mario 64 could be done on the 32X at 15-20FPS.

Rayman and Gex probably would have worked fine though . . . perhaps with animation cuts and more slowdown (and/or lower peak framerate) than the other versions, but probably solid versions in any case.

I'm not sure why the 32X version would have more slowdown, if anything raw CPU grunt was one of its relative advantages to the 3DO and Jaguar. I would also imagine that using the Genesis for the often single layer far background would make the 32X iterations even faster. Gex on 3DO is sub 20FPS, Rayman could be 30 or 60 I would need to check my MPEG2 capture to be sure. Also, most of Rayman's animation is no different than Ballz or Vectorman's segmented sprites for the main character, it shouldn't be that hard for the 32X.

Starfighter would also have probably worked well, especially if using similar model complexity as the 3DO version, but with some reasonable cuts to textures. (perhaps use of gouraud shading too -and tactful art design around that)

Agreed, the Saturn and PS1 versions have none of the draw distance advantage of the 3DO original though, which is why I said the 32X could probably handle the Saturn version.

Team Andromeda, if you think the Financial Times was spinning Sega's release of the 32X by all means find another financial magazine that said so. I have cited those articles from Financial World and Wall Street Journal in the original post and repeatedly in this sub forum and nobody has produced evidence to the contrary.

The problem is, journalistic histories barely address Sega's financial situation, and the boon the 32X created in 1994.

[Da_Shocker]

So creating a get rich quick scheme was the best answer to Sega's financial woes?

[Team Andromeda]

, if you think the Financial Times was spinning Sega's release of the 32X by all means find another financial magazine that said so. I have cited those articles from the Financial Times and Wall Street Journal in the original post and repeatedly in this sub forum and nobody has produced evidence to the contrary.

The problem is, journalistic histories barely address Sega's financial situation, and the boon the 32X created in 1994.

That is not what I said . SEGA was making a profit on both Hardware and software with the Mega Drive , sure sales dropped off - that is what happened at the time with console where sales die down near the end of a console life (even on a smash hit console like Wii or DS) . Now please don't make out that with out the 32X SEGA would have no money to launch the Saturn ,when I think in 1994 SEGA was making profits of over £100 million thanks to great sales of the MD and a stunning set of Arcade results , so even with out the 32X SEGA would have had money And of course what the times article doesn't point our or take in to consideration , was how much the 32X cost to develop, market and support in software vs the revenue it brought in at launc and to make out The Arcades was in decline in 1994 is simply wrong too when in 1994 and 1995 they were not only growing SEGA posted some its best ever results in the Arcade in hits history: Daytona USA was a complete smash (the most popular non Jamma coin up ever) , SEGA Rally performed well in Europe and Japan VF II I think at the time was the most popular non-Jamma game in Japan's Arcade history and that was backed up with great sellers like Gun Blade NY, Viruta Cop, Fighting Vipers, Virtual Striker

And just what to do mean by boom ? I'm sure in 1994 SEGA sold more Mega Drive units than 32x's I'm sure most Mega Drive titles out performed 32X ones in the charts . So to make out that 32X was bringing the cash, while the Arcade market or Mega Drive wasn't its just utterly ridiculous.

You're really taking this 32X love in a bit too far

[Barone]

Lets get real here, the MS sold more in the UK than USA I'm pretty sure the X-Box sold more in New Zealand than Japan . If Brazil was seen as key and important market in those days.

Did I say "key and important market"? No.

I'm on about the early 1990's and no Brazil was not seen has key or important market - How anyone can try and make out that is being ignorant is quite beyond me when that happened to be the facts.

Not my fault mate you don't get your facts right and where you don't like to be questioned. I'm simple stating the facts of the matter

What next TecToy's idea to get Evander Holyfield Real Deal Boxing, David Robinson's Supreme Court on the MD

Those sports titles you used as examples were developed in US, and were SoA's stuff. David Robinson's is a knock off and Real Deal Boxing don't have any content provided by Evander Holyfield aside from his own picture and name AFAIK.
Some others, like Tommy Lasorda Baseball and James 'Buster' Douglas Knockout Boxing (released after his defeat) were just slightly modified already existent Japanese games.

Yeah lots of famous people went to SOJ to play games and it was a great photo opportunity for SEGA and when you get a Big license like that, one would want to milk it . Just like SEGA did with Michael Jackson or the way EA PR used Madden to sell their later games I see to remember Evander holyfield at SEGA CES both . You get a big license and you'll milk it

though what on earth happened to Pele Mega Drive game is anyone guess - Can we thank Tech Toy for that as well ?

Oh I do it all with out an insult or personal attack , but that us British for you ! Stiff upper Lip and manors make a man lol

remind me again when you got the PS2 2009 wasn't it ? Christ most of the world was getting bored with their 360 and PS3 by then ? Don't come it in the 1990's Brazil was not seen a kep market or an important player in the games industry at that time

Times change mate.

Indeed...


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[Thenewguy]

Which are the relevant sources pertaining to revenue increase due to the 32X launch in 1994?

[Team Andromeda]

Indeed...


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Are you for real ? I'm not taking about 2011 or 2012 but 1994 and 1995 . Where was Brazil then ? back then the world was different place where even the UK was ahead of China and Russia needing to be bailed out by the west and seen has a basket case (economical wise)

[sheath]

Team Andromeda, I said boon not boom, and I said less money not no money.

New Guy, The Financial World and Wallstreet Journal citations are footnotes 20-24 in the Review. I have directly quoted the relevant comments in the review text as well.

[Team Andromeda]

Team Andromeda, I said boon not boom, and I said less money not no money.

New Guy, The Financial World and Wallstreet Journal citations are footnotes 20-24 in the Review. I have directly quoted the relevant comments in the review text as well.

You still missed the point of SEGA posting profits of millions in 1994 . The fact that SEGA sold more MD than 32X's in 1994 same for software and then there was the Arcade's . 1994 and 1995 was some the best and most successful years for SEGA Arcade teams in their history . SEGA must have made a fortune on Daytona USA alone, that the game was everywhere and nearly all the time was in constant use . So this myth that 32X was the only way SEGA would have had money to launch the Saturn is utterly riddiclous

[Thenewguy]

New Guy, The Financial World and Wallstreet Journal citations are footnotes 20-24 in the Review. I have directly quoted the relevant comments in the review text as well.

I can see a lot of sources regarding the slump, but can't find anything pertaining to a revenue increase at the end of 1994 attributed to the 32X.