Review of Retro Gamer's 32X "Retroinspection"

[Thenewguy]

here is a video of Atari Jaguar and 32X Fighters

Reminds me of that fight between the two disabled kids in South Park.

[sheath]

Hah, I have to admit that was a cool fight.

[Barone]

@sheath
No, it proves that all SNES games are better than their Genesis counterparts. Also, SNES is far superior to Sega CD for the same reason. You should compare SNES with the Neo Geo!
Color counting is everything that matters in a game, you should already knew that, idiot!

[sheath]

I know it's true, I just can't figure out how it adds up. MKII on SNES doesn't even display as many colors per screen as MKII 32X does. I suppose I'll just have to learn to accept that somethings are unknowable.

[Barone]

What are you talking about? SNES is THE colorful system.
Also, don't forget that "using a good stereo MKII on the SNES sounds like the arcade". And don't try to argue with that, you'll get trashed. There's no muffled sounds or music in the SNES games, it's just people using dog shit sound systems.
Your problem with SNES MKII showing less colors than 32X's version is that you don't have the SNES glasses.
However, what kills MKII on the 32X for me is that it uses Genesis controllers and 3 buttons aren't enough for fighters. Instead, using the SNES I can play it using its god-like controllers. It's proved that SNES controllers are superior since Sony copied them for the PS1.

By the way, the 32X just proved that SNES is much more powerful than the Genesis. You need this shitty add-on to play Doom, while "I just need a SNES to play it".

Poor sheath, always wrong...

[sheath]

[TrekkiesUnite118]

I know it's true, I just can't figure out how it adds up. MKII on SNES doesn't even display as many colors per screen as MKII 32X does. I suppose I'll just have to learn to accept that somethings are unknowable.

None of that matters because Donkey Kong Country displays 4096 onscreen colors with a scanline trick that no other system can do! That proves MKII is better on the SNES!

[sheath]

None of that matters because Donkey Kong Country displays 4096 onscreen colors with a scanline trick that no other system can do! That proves MKII is better on the SNES!

That's true! And those backgrounds, man they are just so flat, and lush, and flat, and I never ever have any trouble telling which background elements can be jumped on. Those colors were used so exquisitely well to paraphrase an infinitely unbiased magazine, "everything is just so... right."

[kool kitty89]

I know it's true, I just can't figure out how it adds up. MKII on SNES doesn't even display as many colors per screen as MKII 32X does. I suppose I'll just have to learn to accept that somethings are unknowable.

On a serious not: I've said it before, but MKII on 32x should have had the 32x handling the BGs rather than the sprites . . . the sprites already optimize very well within MD color limits (and could be even better is dedicating 2 palettes per sprite -and perhaps some tactful dithering like MK3 used), but the BGs are what took the bigger hit for sure. (the BGs would also tend to cater better to being uncompressed into RAM, unlike animated sprites which usually need to be streamed uncompressed or decompressed on the fly)

[sheath]

I think they would have done best, if they had to use Genesis backgrounds, with using the Genesis only for the far background in each scene. The 32X should have been able to handle the floors and the characters, and probably also the near background. This is how Knuckles Chaotix and Kolibri worked and they ran fine. Actually, what am I thinking, Brutal has tons of animation and seems to be running entirely on the 32X graphically. I think Probe just chose a quick port option.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

On a serious not: I've said it before, but MKII on 32x should have had the 32x handling the BGs rather than the sprites . . . the sprites already optimize very well within MD color limits (and could be even better is dedicating 2 palettes per sprite -and perhaps some tactful dithering like MK3 used), but the BGs are what took the bigger hit for sure. (the BGs would also tend to cater better to being uncompressed into RAM, unlike animated sprites which usually need to be streamed uncompressed or decompressed on the fly)

If the 32X was doing backgrounds and the Genesis was doing the sprites wouldn't that cause a priority issue when the video is mixed? Isn't the Genesis video always the lowest layer with the 32X video placed over top? So if the 32X was doing the backgrounds and the Genesis doing the sprites wouldn't the backgrounds then be placed over top the sprites hiding them from view?

[sheath]

If I recall correctly the 32X is supposed to mix Genesis and 32X graphics with either priority. I don't know how that is possible, except that the 32X takes the analog RGB output of the Genesis and digitally mixes it before outputting its own stuff. It would probably have to treat the entire Genesis output as one layer though, so you probably can't have the Genesis display foreground/sprites and far backgrounds with parallax with the 32X sandwiched in between. But I can't imagine why anybody would want to do that.

I do think it would be a good idea to let the Genesis handle all sprites, even though they would be limited to 16 colors each, if they could have all four palettes available to them that would not be bad at all, and the Genesis could probably throw around as many sprites as any game would need for that generation. Imagine that combined with the 32X doing 3D backgrounds, I'd buy it.

[Chilly Willy]

There is a setting in the 32X that determines which layer is in front, the 32X or the MD; after that, you can flip that on a per pixel basis with the priority bit for the color on 32X pixels.

[sheath]

Wait, that sounds like you could do more than the Genesis can with cell row/column priorities then.

-edit-

I guess it is too much to hope that there can be alpha levels between both system's layers too?

Either way, the prospects are exciting. I'm picturing Thunder Force IV type parallax with 32X and Genesis layers intermixed as needed to create high color detail where needed and line/cell scrolling where that works best.

[kool kitty89]

There is a setting in the 32X that determines which layer is in front, the 32X or the MD; after that, you can flip that on a per pixel basis with the priority bit for the color on 32X pixels.

Is per-pixel priority only supported in 15-bit mode, or can it be used in 8-bit mode too? (and wouldn't that sacrifice 1/2 the palette?)

Wait, that sounds like you could do more than the Genesis can with cell row/column priorities then.

-edit-

I guess it is too much to hope that there can be alpha levels between both system's layers too?

Either way, the prospects are exciting. I'm picturing Thunder Force IV type parallax with 32X and Genesis layers intermixed as needed to create high color detail where needed and line/cell scrolling where that works best.

There's per-pixel priority for the 32x framebuffer, but the MD layers are all seen as a single plane by the 32x (ie 32x pixels are either in front or behind all MD layers -including sprites).

To achieve more granularity (between sprites/scroll A/B/priority etc) and/or allow alpha blending, you'd need to use a digital pixel bus rather than the analog output. (a shame Sega didn't include the VDP's digital pixel output on the cart/expansion ports . . . Hudson did that with the PCE -albeit the MD's pixel bus is even more flexible than the PCE's since it's not ust a 9-bit digital RGB port, but a 10-bit pixel bus with 4-bit pixel data and additional priority and palette selection bits -mainly designed to allow use of an external RAMDAC -as with the System C- but allowing greater flexibility than that too)

I think they would have done best, if they had to use Genesis backgrounds, with using the Genesis only for the far background in each scene. The 32X should have been able to handle the floors and the characters, and probably also the near background. This is how Knuckles Chaotix and Kolibri worked and they ran fine. Actually, what am I thinking, Brutal has tons of animation and seems to be running entirely on the 32X graphically. I think Probe just chose a quick port option.

Chaotix is like MK in that most of the BG and foreground is done by the Genesis with only sprites (usually) being handled by the 32x. Kolibri is the only game I've seen to use the 32x that heavily . . . at least while maintaining smooth animation and parallax. (Blackthorne does everything on the 32x -and actually runs in highcolor mode too- but lacks scrolling, so it's nota very good comparison)

And with the way most MK stages are, using the MD for the far background wouldn't be very useful. Albeit, you could use the MD to handle parts of the foreground with the 32x handling sprites and BG (using high/low priority on the 32x, with sprites set high and BG set low), but even then it wouldn't be that useful due to inconsistent need for BG/foreground details in different stages.

Also, remember the need for palette optimization: you need to cater to fixed palettes for each fighter and each stage BG simultaneously . . . for the MD, this meant 2 palettes for the BG and 1 for each fighter, but for the 32x (or PC) using a 256 color palette, you'd either be limited to a fixed global palette or you could specifically reserve portions of the palette for fighters and BG (like 64 colors for each fighter and 128 colors for the BG). If you used the MD solely for fighters, you could dedicate 2 15 color palettes to each fighter and 256 colors to the BG with optimized palettes for each fighter and each stage.