Review of Retro Gamer's 32X "Retroinspection"

[Da_Shocker]

I'm not sure how much was spent on the Saturn's marketing but they spent 100 million on the DC. The eyetoy wasn't a 150 dollar add on but more like 40 dollars. You don't need a ton of cash to sale a 40 dollar add on that is cheaper than alot of retail games in the first place. M$ on the other spent 500 million dollars to sale a 150 dollar add on.

[Thenewguy]

That is what you have been saying though, the sales of these short lived add-ons prove that the public didn't want them.

The sales petering out, the system having its retail price slashed, 3rd parties losing interest, and magazines souring on these machines after high early expectations proved that the public didn't want them.

Most machines may not start out with huge sales, but there's usually growth, increase in 3rd party software support, fairly consistant hardware prices during the early years (no repeated, large scale discounts), and continued positive expectations coming from consumers and press, none of these things are true for the 32X

[sheath]

The sales petering out, the system having its retail price slashed, 3rd parties losing interest, and magazines souring on these machines after high early expectations proved that the public didn't want them.

The sales and retail price points are normal for any and all products, sometimes price cuts counteract sales drops, sometimes something else is required. Third parties losing interest can happen for a variety of reasons, but it is usually caused by their games not selling enough, which happens on mainstream consoles even more than on niche add-ons. Magazines sour for one reason only, they didn't get enough advertising from that company.

None of these definitively prove what the public wants. You are ascribing too much of a connection between the whims of the mass market and the activities of corporations. If anything the situations is reversed, and all of the above scenarios need to be crafted in a positive sense in order to convince the public to want "Widget A".

Most machines may not start out with huge sales, but there's usually growth, increase in 3rd party software support, fairly consistant hardware prices during the early years (no repeated, large scale discounts), and continued positive expectations coming from consumers and press, none of these things are true for the 32X

Somebody is going to have to prove that the public turned against the 32X, or that 32X sales flopped, before it was discontinued. This has not been proven.

We know that demand for the 32X outstripped supply, we know that Sega started leaking at the seams with rumors of conflict over the Saturn, and we know that Sega canceled the 32X six months into its life. We do_not know that 32X sales flopped prior to this, and if they did drop we are talking about the game industry's slow season anyway, so we would have to compare the drop to everything else on the market at the time.

[kool kitty89]

Can we really stop the wind up crap now ? For one thing the Mega CD used basic off the shelf parts, bar the ASIC chip so the cost to SEGA R&D would have minimal at best . SEGA never sold it at a lost (so the cost to SEGA's bottom line was minimal) and even with developing and releasing the Mega CD SEGA Japan reported its best ever profits in 1992/3 so its not like Mega CD development or PR impacted much on SEGA's cash flow

R&D investment is NOT what I was talking about. Hardware design is one of the smallest net costs in releasing a console or computer. Manufacturing, marketing, software development, PR, etc are many, many times more significant.

I'm getting so very bored of you wind up's.... We never hear from you that Nintendo shouldn't have released the Virutal Boy , N64 DD (which NCL wasted millions on) Famicom Disc drive, or Sony with the PSX, or Atari with the Jaguar (a move that killed the corp) and load of other doomed systems or add-on's . Its always SEGA, always the Saturn or now Mega CD and your change of tune is talking the piss too; You've go from SEGA should have backed the Mega CD more, supported it for longer delay the Saturn and even bring out the likes of Virutal Racing for it , to now SEGA should have never brought it out at all.

These arguments are full of flaws, but to just pick the easy 1:
Releasing the Jaguar most definitely did not "kill" Atari Corp . . . they'd have been just as easily (or more easily) doomed had they not released it, and barely had a slim chance of establishing any place on the market at all in 1993 due to their horrible financial position (mediocre Lynx sales, computers dying, no home console since the 7800, etc).

And in the case of the DD (or FDS for that matter), Nintendo saved massive amounts by cutting their losses and not releasing those outside of Japan. (one massive advantage for JP tech companies in general)


And, as for the "hindsight" discussion in general . . . that's the whole point of this thread (arguing the best case scenario with historical information available), so I see no point in suggesting we ignore it.

[Team Andromeda]

The fact of the matter is, the NES, Genesis, PS1 and PS3 are all mass market consoles that failed to sell in mass market numbers for their first couple of years. They each stuck around long enough to turn that around, a component alone that ignites a firestorm of speculation over marketing, pricing game library, perceived library quality, media support, and funding

Seath what is this stuff coming from you . No console is mass market at the start simply down to the price issues , it's always 2 to 3 years in the system hits true mass market price point . Now the Mega CD came out in 1991 and was dropped by SEGA in 1995 it had more than enough time to establish it's self , and even with a big spend a quite a few years on sale , it only ever got a small % of the market , but this was in the 16 bit age and so SEGA could afford that sort of share.

And one can't even begin to compare the Mega CD to Kinect . Mega CD was not only a response to the Super Famicom -hence the includion of scaling and far better audio , but also a need to try and get away from the costly and limited Cart format the at time . It was mean to change the way the games were develived to the consumer , nothing of that is true about Kinect it adds no power to the 360 and doesn't change the delivery method, only to control interface . So you're better off comparing Kinect to the likes of sega Activator.

Speaking of Kinect while it can boast great Hardware sales , its software sales are anything but, with only a handfull of Kinect only titles selling in decent numbers

Field that question over at Atari Age. I suspect you aren't honestly looking for an answer. Besides, I have already explained why the Jaguar's presence was a huge deal.

Are you for real ? . Why ask a bunch of Fanboys who are blinded to the truth that the Jaguar was a mess of system with utter pants 3D graphics a horrible line up of games , the worst joypad ever invented . And I don't really know why you keep on posting these scans of pre hype lauches . Nearly every new system before it launched in the would get writes ups and have people looking forward to it , christ I bet there were great write ups of Atari just months before the USA market crashed , I remember massive and great write ups and press previews about the CDTV, the CDI and even the N-Gage . Forget about that , and look what happens after the launch and the 32X was quickly becoming a dumping ground for piss poor 3D party games and a poor mans Saturn in every way . Even SEGA mag's were turning on the system just months in , which said it all

The big 3rd parties just didn't really take it that seriously, which is odd because it actually did fairly well in Japan early on

Yes 300,000 units in the 1st year , Much better than 3D0 did in the USA . Amazing for Japan and the price of the system

here was nothing unappealing about developing for the 3DO, in fact the opposite is true, tons of profits, low licensing fees, complete freedom, and easy to use dev kits were the order of the day

Yes and Region free too . Its a shame the system never worked out . It had a lot going for it

[Team Andromeda]

R&D investment is NOT what I was talking about. Hardware design is one of the smallest net costs in releasing a console or computer.

Yes ask SONY who spent billions on the PS2 and PS3 hardware R&D, while most of the PS tech was outsourced and so way cheaper on SONY bottom line. And I'll remind you again SEGA never sold the Mega CD at a lost and combined its Mega CD and Mega Drive marketing in one in a lost of cases , esspially in the UK with the SEGA Pirate TV Ad's . Hence why even with developing and publishing the Mega CD SEGA was able to post profits of over 200 million in 1993

Releasing the Jaguar most definitely did not "kill" Atari Corp

I'm am getting bored of your winds ups . What was you saying about "Manufacturing, marketing, software development, PR, etc are many, many times more significant". Atari wasted what few millions it had left trying to push the Jaguar and paid the price .

And, as for the "hindsight" discussion in general . . . that's the whole point of this thread

Only you use it every thread .

[sheath]

And one can't even begin to compare the Mega CD to Kinect . Mega CD was not only a response to the Super Famicom -hence the includion of scaling and far better audio , but also a need to try and get away from the costly and limited Cart format the at time . It was mean to change the way the games were develived to the consumer , nothing of that is true about Kinect it adds no power to the 360 and doesn't change the delivery method, only to control interface . So you're better off comparing Kinect to the likes of sega Activator.

You're looking at the hardware and saying it is too different, but that changes nothing. Kinect is an add-on/peripheral and functions the same way in marketing as the 32X did before Sega canceled it. If Microsoft randomly dropped Kinect from something better today it would have the exact same effect on Microsoft's image as the 32X cancellation had on Sega's. To the consumer, and marketing departments, and retailers, they're all just products that give access to different types of games, it doesn't matter at all whether there's a processor and RAM inside it or not.

Speaking of Kinect while it can boast great Hardware sales , its software sales are anything but, with only a handfull of Kinect only titles selling in decent numbers

That sounds about par for the course with casual games, casual players rarely buy more than one or two games in huge numbers. This does nothing to negate the "sameness" of the Kinect and 32X as marketable products. Before you ball your fists and say it ain't so, Scot Bayless already made the comparison, and so did Melf. In the Retrogamer interview Bayless even predicted that the Kinect was "history repeating itself" and would end up just as badly for Microsoft as 32X did for Sega. In the recent interview he said that was because he thought that Kinect would only sell if it were integrated with the 360 main unit. Which is what everybody an their dog says the 32X needed to be to succeed.

Are you for real ? . Why ask a bunch of Fanboys who are blinded to the truth that the Jaguar was a mess of system with utter pants 3D graphics a horrible line up of games , the worst joypad ever invented . And I don't really know why you keep on posting these scans of pre hype lauches . Nearly every new system before it launched in the would get writes ups and have people looking forward to it , christ I bet there were great write ups of Atari just months before the USA market crashed , I remember massive and great write ups and press previews about the CDTV, the CDI and even the N-Gage . Forget about that , and look what happens after the launch and the 32X was quickly becoming a dumping ground for piss poor 3D party games and a poor mans Saturn in every way . Even SEGA mag's were turning on the system just months in , which said it all

Um, wow, I guess I shouldn't be having discussions about Sega on a Sega forum either then. Or are Atari fans worse than Sega fans intellectually? Also, posting articles isn't useless, thanks for the insults though.

[Team Andromeda]

You're looking at the hardware and saying it is too different, but that changes nothing. Kinect is an add-on/peripheral and functions the same way in marketing as the 32X did before Sega canceled it.

No they're totally different. 32X and Mega CD added more power and better sound the host unit and the Mega CD even changed the delivery format of games , Kinect did neither. Kinect is nothing more than a new controller when all is said and done, and btw a piss poor one at that I may add .

If Microsoft randomly dropped Kinect from something better today it would have the exact same effect on Microsoft's image as the 32X cancellation had on Sega's

That really depends on a lot of things . MS can drop products at a moments notice like it did with Kin phone. MS after all dropped the X-Box less than 4 years in and it never hurt them at all and its not like MS ever supported the original 360 camera at all. And its not like droping the N64 DD or virutal Boy ever hurt the GBA or N64 for Nintendo

That sounds about par for the course with casual games, casual players rarely buy more than one or two games in huge numbers

Not really lots of casuals bought in to the PS2 and PS hype and bought games at the end of the day . Kinect users just bring the system out every Christmas for Dance Central .

Bayless even predicted that the Kinect was "history repeating itself" and would end up just as badly for Microsoft as 32X did for Sega

Well that was silly . The 32X was meant for people how couldn't afford the Saturn or the PS , the Kinect is not there for people who can't afford to upgrade to the 720 or what ever MS call it's next console . Like I said its totally different .

Um, wow, I guess I shouldn't be having discussions about Sega on a Sega forum either then. Or are Atari fans worse than Sega fans intellectually

In same cases yes, the way some go on here about the Mega Drive, even more powerful than the Neo Geo some will say . All I will say is the Jaguar was a complete joke and you only had to look at its Joypad to have a good laugh and then you could piss your self at the systems utterly laughable 3D . Next you'll be making out the Falcon was a success and posting pre hype press shorts and saying how we should all go to the Atari boards

Simple fact of the matter is the Jaguar is and was a complete and utterly failure on almost every level especially sales.

[sheath]

You are entirely missing the point.

[Team Andromeda]

You are entirely missing the point.

Missing no point at all . Sales don't lie . Jaguar games never made the top 20 and I doubt even the top 40 charts in the UK , Hell even the odd mega CD or Saturn could do that and I'll not try and make out those we massive sellers inthe UK , but hey lets listen to Atari age

[sheath]

And you were one of those clairvoyants who knew that was going to happen before the Jag ever launched right? Wow, how does it feel to be smarter than basically anybody in the industry at the time?

[Team Andromeda]

And you were one of those clairvoyants who knew that was going to happen before the Jag ever launched right? Wow, how does it feel to be smarter than basically anybody in the industry at the time?

Most people new early on the jaguar was doomed has soon as Atari showed off Trevor McFur in the Crescent Galaxy and Raiden you knew the system was doomed and not going to do any better than the Lynx . Not just smarts asses but most of the gaming public could see it was another Atari dud , that is why so very few 3rd parties support the system, much less made software for it. 3D0 on the other hand was a major threat had some serious backers and if not for the price,could have done massive damage to SEGA and NCL share.

[sheath]

Most of the gaming public knew the Jaguar was going to flop? That's really strange, because all of my gamer friends thought it was kinda cool and played all of its games at kiosks in town. The local and chain retail shops carried Jaguar games too, they must have failed to mind meld with you and the rest of the gaming public before buying up Atari stock to sell. All of the money game magazines spent promoting and reviewing Jaguar games, they should have consulted you and your psychic gamer team.

You must have forgotten to poll all of these people in and out of the industry, you did poll the gaming public before coming to your conclusions right? Right?

[StarMist]

Are you for real ? . Why ask a bunch of Fanboys who are blinded to the truth that the Jaguar was a mess of system with utter pants 3D graphics a horrible line up of games , the worst joypad ever invented .

This is way over the top. It's up there for the worst looking but not the worst in function. In consideration of Atari's history with controllers, or the general perception of them at least, they ought to have made it more conventional, but it is not that awful to play with.

Nearly every new system before it launched in the would get writes ups and have people looking forward to it

This is their purpose, to remind TNG of that along with everyone else who's going to say the Jaguar was irrelevant. If people looked forward to, desired, or fondly remember it it's not irrelevant. The Jaguar has a tiny niche in history which cannot be effaced simply be squatting the Playstation atop it.

That sounds about par for the course with casual games, casual players rarely buy more than one or two games in huge numbers.

Casual gamers buy more than a few games, they just don't play them more than a few times each.

Um, wow, I guess I shouldn't be having discussions about Sega on a Sega forum either then. Or are Atari fans worse than Sega fans intellectually?

It's hard not to wonder.

[Team Andromeda]

Most of the gaming public knew the Jaguar was going to flop? That's really strange, because all of my gamer friends thought it was kinda cool and played all of its games at kiosks in town

Yeah what ever . Most knew it was going to be a dud.

The local and chain retail shops carried Jaguar games too, they must have failed to mind meld with you and the rest of the gaming public before buying up Atari stock to sell

So let me get this straight ?. If a shop on launch stocks your product , that means its an success . Let My GOD I never knew the Falcom, the CDI, the 3D0, the Neo Geo Pocket , Zune , HD DVD, Amstrad were successes.

All of the money game magazines spent promoting and reviewing Jaguar games, they should have consulted you and your psychic gamer team.

Listen to your self will you . Promotion is paid for by the manufacture and its a gaming mag/press job to cover and review games/systems is it not ?. I seen some cover the N-gage, what next that was a massive seller , more so because EDGE did a big feature on it and all the people making fun of the system were totally wrong . Heck even the way you changed games and answered phone calls was broken and you didn't have to be an expert to see it was going to fall flat on its ass.

Wake up the Jaguar was a complete and utter flop and most people bar you , can see that

This is way over the top. It's up there for the worst looking but not the worst in function.

Not really . The Jaguar pad was a nightmare to hold and came at the time when at least four face buttons were the norm and needed for the types of games people we playing . All lost on everyone at Atari, you couldn't make it up

This is their purpose, to remind TNG of that along with everyone else who's going to say the Jaguar was irrelevant.

if you're in to games you look forward to new more powerful hardware, if your job is to cover the industry you'll report on any new system coming out, more so if your publisher buys the said 'hardware' for you to review and play on . You know the Gizmondo was quite powerful had a bit of press hype , but you didn't have to be a know all to know the system wasn't quite going to make it.