Review of Retro Gamer's 32X "Retroinspection"

[Chilly Willy]

Just some pure speculation here - we all know every spec list from SEGA and even the boxes themselves claim the 32X had hardware scaling and rotation of SPRITES. The speculation is, maybe the original design for the 32X had one SH2 and VDP1 from the Saturn. Such a design would have been almost the same price as what they went with in the end, and WOULD have been a SERIOUS threat to the Saturn market. So the VDP1 was pulled from the design and replaced with a second SH2. The VDPs in the Saturn use a 16-bit bus, so having VDP1 in the 32X would be easy to do. VDP1 reads commands and data from local ram, and stores to two separate frame buffers; the 32X has local SDRAM and two separate frame buffers. VDP1 was made specifically for dealing with SPRITES, while VDP2 did the background layers; on the 32X, the MD would do the background layers instead.

It's just wild speculation, but it does make some sense in the context of the times. Such a system actually may have been better in the long run than the Saturn was.

Yes SEGA's profits went from over 250 million to over 100 million . Still massive profits in anyone book and that's with all the Hardware development paid for . Fact was even in 96 SEGA was able to post profits of over 40 Million . It was 97 when SEGA went into the Red.

You're out of your mind. That's nothing for a multinational business.

Actually, I agree with TA on this. You're thinking of ridiculously flush companies like current Apple or Microsoft or drug companies. Most major corps don't make NEARLY so much money.

[sheath]

Scot Bayless and Marty Franz described the original "hotel napkin" spec as dual SH2s and dual framebuffers. The dual SH2 design of the Saturn was even described as "the star of the show" in creating the 32X design. Anything is possible, but I would say that it is unlikely that any deviation from the dual SH2s wasn't seriously considered.

Melf's Bayless interview is the first time any industry type had even implied a more powerful 32X design ever existed. Up until now the assumption was that the 32X took the upgraded Megadrive want from SoJ, and the SVP, and blew that off the top with the SH2s. I would absolutely love to see more facts surface about what was cut, if anything, from the 32X design to make the "peripheral" price point.

[sheath]

With respect to the last few earnest posts, I do think this thread needs an enema.

For the Saturn fans in here who just can't see the point.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Sheath, it doesn't matter what the 32X was intended to be marketted as. At the end of the day it still ended up being another next generation on the market competing with another next generation system from the exact same company. That's just a bad thing to do right there.

To put it in perspective that would be like Microsoft releasing the Kinect than less than half a year later releasing a brand new system that was more powerful than the 360 and had a better motion control scheme than Kinect but the two were completely incompatible with each other. That would cause confusion on the consumers end as moms and dads going to buy these for their kids would be going "Well wait which one do I want? Do I want Kinect or this new Console? Are they compatible? Does a 360 plus Kinect eqaul this new console?" Those are the exact same questions consumers were asking themselves with the Saturn and 32X fiasco.

The fact of the matter here is the two systems may not have been intended to compete with each other, but that's essentially what ended up happening. And in an industry like this you don't want to compete with yourself for the same market. Because then you end up with two systems that look like failures instead of one system that appears to be a success, even if you end up making money on them in the short term.

Just because Sega intended it to be two different markets doesn't mean that's what essentially ended up happening or how the systems were perceived. If that was how it happened there wouldn't have been all those magazine articles and ads trying to explain it to customers.

[sheath]

I'm not certain that our hindsight view of the 32X having an effect on the Saturn in any way is historically supportable. The main problem is the total lack of contemporaneous facts to support the claim. Everything I have read from the media was clear, Sega was taking their business in the same model as the car industry.

I vaguely recall published reader letters that questioned whether Sega was going to make more games for the 32X after the Saturn launched. I haven't found a single thing that would imply anybody wondered whether things would swing entirely to the 32X. The add-on's reputation was relegated to "stop gap", which 3DO's Trip Hawkins made certain to make a derogatory label, from before it was even released.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

I didn't say people thought the 32X would take over. Stop putting those words in my mouth. I am saying that people were confused by it and thought maybe the 32X was compatible with Saturn games or possibly Saturn was compatible with 32X games, which neither was the case. Some people did think if you had a 32X and Sega CD you'd have a Saturn, which again was not the case. It caused confusion on that level. So sales became split due to confusion.

[sheath]

I know you didn't, I didn't even say you were saying these things. These are the logical conclusions to the confusion you were referring to, and I've heard it all before, but years after the 32X was marketable. As to consumer confusion regarding compatibility, that was also answered in numerous press releases and reader letters to editors. The answer was always either a resounding "no compatibility" or "maybe someday". Again, I am making absolutely no statement about whether this was the "best" way to handle it, I am simply stating the known, or at least readily available, information regarding the 32X and Saturn.

Some people who reviewed the Sega CD also thought it was a Dual Core 32-bit System 32 equivalent with full on color upgrade capabilities. Gamepro published this explicitly. I have found no such confusion over the 32X in any magazine or published comment so far. Even on Usenet gamers seemed to know what the 32X was.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

The magazines may have said it, that doesn't mean it got to the parents buying gaming systems for their kids. The sad fact is that at the time, and even to this day, the mass market doesn't buy or read gaming magazines. I'd guess less than 10-25% of the market the 32X and Saturn were aimed at read Gaming magazines regularly, I know I never read them as a kid or knew anyone who did.

That's part of the problem with using those as sources for what the general opinion was at the time. They only represent a small fraction of the people who bought these things.

[sheath]

Right, that is another horrible mixup that the trolls have created in this thread. I am not attempting to create a general perception. That would, at a minimum, require polling thousands of people who could verify they owned these products at the time. This would require a much more serious inquiry than has ever been attempted and that I hope one day soon will be.

We do_not know anything about the general public opinion from these times. Anything we have is anecedotal evidence, it wouldn't matter statistically if we found 100 like minded folks.

Speaking of anecdotes, here is a lively and populated debate on the Saturn, 3DO and 32X from Usenet in July of 1995.

[Team Andromeda]

You're out of your mind. That's nothing for a multinational business

What on earth are you on about ? To a corp like SEGA those are and were huge profits. Hell if SEGA were making profits like that through the back end of the 1990's and during the DC era , I really doubt CSK would have sold their share and we would have had at least 5 years of the DC to enjoy. Hell these days even SONY would like to make a profit of over 200 million

we have already discovered that the 32X boosted Sega's revenues above Nintendo's for 1994, which is a merit.

C'Mon that is not really true , more so when you factor in Japan . Also remember in 1994/5 SEGA Japan launched the Saturn, its most successful console lauch in its history and was getting vastly rich on the Back Daytona USA which was was simply a world wide Arcade sensation. So there are various reasons for the revenues boast

We have yet to discover what the 32X's sales were in Spring of 1995 before its extremely early cancellation, or the reason for its cancellation

Poor sales , end of . Really that's why retail were getting rid of stock as fast as could and corps like CORE never released 3 finished 32X games . It just wasn't selling well enough and not enough retail support . No corps claps its hands and cheers when its forced to cancel its own Hardware and don't go on about early sales , at the start the CD32 sold very well , more so in the UK I think it shifted over 200,000 units in Europe pretty amazing , but it was dropped due to weak retail and 3rd party support . NEC had to drop the PC=FX due to poor sales , even though on lauch its shifted over 70,000 units in its 1st week

If it was just SEGA and NCL they maybe SEGA could have stayed with the 32X , but it was facing SONY and that changed the game totally .


No back in the real world . A corp dropped support for Hardware for just a couple of reasons - Either its losing money and they can't make the shortfall up elsewhere , or the hardware is not selling . With the 32X it was the fact that the unit wasn't selling well enough at retail , or with the DC it was sadly a combination of the 2

[sheath]

C'Mon that is not really true , more so when you factor in Japan . Also remember in 1994/5 SEGA Japan launched the Saturn, its most successful console lauch in its history and was getting vastly rich on the Back Daytona USA which was was simply a world wide Arcade sensation. So there are various reasons for the revenues boast

Right, I'm pretty sure we're talking about Sega's consumer products division as separate from the Arcade division's revenue. That is yet another detail that needs to be ironed out before crass narratives can be applied (if ever).

Poor sales , end of . Really that's why retail were getting rid of stock as fast as could and corps like CORE never released 3 finished 32X games . It just wasn't selling well enough and not enough retail support . No corps claps its hands and cheers when its forced to cancel its own Hardware and don't go on about early sales , at the start the CD32 sold very well , more so in the UK I think it shifted over 200,000 units in Europe pretty amazing , but it was dropped due to weak retail and 3rd party support . NEC had to drop the PC=FX due to poor sales , even though on lauch its shifted over 70,000 units in its 1st week

So, on the one hand you admit that no platform is mainstream upon release, but on the other hand you say that the 32X was canceled six months after its release because it wasn't selling worse than expected. That is assuming the 32X was selling poorly during the Industry's very slow Spring Season.

If it was just SEGA and NCL they maybe SEGA could have stayed with the 32X , but it was facing SONY and that changed the game totally .

This makes sense, but it is still speculation. The most significant fact we have on the matter is SoJ contradicting SoA in 1995 with the super early Saturn pre-launch. Again, if they had just stuck with the original plan and hadn't been leaking rumors about the conflict from every seam, things would have gone much better for Sega in 1995 at the very least.

No back in the real world . A corp dropped support for Hardware for just a couple of reasons - Either its losing money and they can't make the shortfall up elsewhere , or the hardware is not selling . With the 32X it was the fact that the unit wasn't selling well enough at retail , or with the DC it was sadly a combination of the 2

You don't know that (about the 32X), we don't have any facts to support it. Retailers were not liquidating the 32X before summer of 1995, when the unit was canceled. Of course they liquidated after that, but if I recall the 32X was still close to $100 by the end of 1995.

[Team Andromeda]

Right, I'm pretty sure we're talking about Sega's consumer products division as separate from the Arcade division's revenue.

I'm talking about SEGA overall profits which always include its Arcade divisions. Hell I think SEGA consumer Teams have only ever been able to report a profit once , since mid 1990's , otherwise its always the Arcade division that saves the day . In 1994 SEGA had a great year with selling MD's at a profit , Sonic III sold millions on its own , Saturn sold over 400,000 units in a month SEGA couldn't make enough Daytona USA fast enough to meet demand and lets all remember Daytona USA was truly a sensation the world over and I doubt we'll ever seen its likes again . So SEGA did well on all front , not just the 32X

So, on the one hand you admit that no platform is mainstream upon release,

It never is , but you need a good solid base of Hardware nuts and Die hard fans to buy your product/console at the start , then 2 year down the line a price drop and a good range of games your system becomes truly mass market . Sadly for the 32X it never had that a few months down the line . or do you think retail and a Hardware manufacture drops a product that is making them money for the fun of it ?

This makes sense, but it is still speculation. The most significant fact we have on the matter is SoJ contradicting SoA in 1995 with the super early Saturn pre-launch

No, Everyone knew the PS was a real deal and SONY was putting its full weight behind it in 1994 , and I put to you the only reason we had a rushed Saturn launch, was the 32X failed to sell in big enough numbers and so SOJ pressed the panic button and to much is made of the Saturn launch line up anyway , the PS3 and PS3 had utterly pathetic lines ups bar 1 or 2 good games and a super high price point too and it never held them back, the 3DS had a pretty dire launch

Retailers were not liquidating the 32X before summer of 1995

Sadly they were . Selling off the 32X and its games at cheap prices and only giving the system small support in store and let's not try and make out otherwise . 4 months in everyone knew the game was really up for the 32X

[sheath]

You can say it over and over again until you are blue in the face, it doesn't make it fact until there are facts to support it. Hell, while you're talking about what "everybody knew" I remember people wondering if Sony would be just another megacorp here today and gone tomorrow. That thread I posted places great weight on the 3DO versus the Saturn.

You don't have any idea what the public was thinking about back then, you're just ascribing your own modern opinion on the past.

[TrekkiesUnite118]

Let's get TmEE and ChillyWilly to rig together a time machine out of a Sega CD32X so we can go back in time to 1994 and get some facts of the situation. I think that's a more realistic way and doable way for us to put an end to this debate once and for all.

[StarMist]

As much as we all want a chance to sleep with our mothers I don't think that even the Mega Drive's blast processing is enough to make the Sega CD do 88.