Review of Retro Gamer's 32X "Retroinspection"

[sheath]

Ya'll may want to sleep with your mothers, I guess your hindsight mothers are much prettier than mine.

[Team Andromeda]

You can say it over and over again until you are blue in the face, it doesn't make it fact until there are facts to support it. Hell, while you're talking about what "everybody knew" I remember people wondering if Sony would be just another megacorp here today and gone tomorrow. That thread I posted places great weight on the 3DO versus the Saturn.

It was clear in 1994 SONY was very serious , Setting up world wide studios and networks doing deals with Namco for home and Arcade hardware and software, getting nearly every 3rd party under the sun not just to sign up for a developer license (which they all do) , but also to developer games for the system . And if that wasn't enough after the system launch in Japan in 1994 no-one should have been in any doubt SONY was in the video games market its a Big way and putting its full weight behind the system.

And yes everyone knew about the 32X, Not just the gaming press not just the Hardware SEGA nuts , but anyone who walked into a shop in the spring and summer of 95 could see the 32X was not going to last , and retail wasn't fully behind the system

You don't have any idea what the public was thinking about back then, you're just ascribing your own modern opinion on the past

I think that applies to you . The only person that seemed to think the 32X and Jaguar were doing well months in , everyone else knew otherwise .

[TrekkiesUnite118]

As much as we all want a chance to sleep with our mothers I don't think that even the Mega Drive's blast processing is enough to make the Sega CD do 88.

What if you threw in the 32X and SVP chip? With TmEE's modding and programing Skills and Chilly's Programming skills I'm sure they could come up with something.

[Chilly Willy]

And yes everyone knew about the 32X, Not just the gaming press not just the Hardware SEGA nuts , but anyone who walked into a shop in the spring and summer of 95 could see the 32X was not going to last , and retail wasn't fully behind the system

You don't have any idea what the public was thinking about back then, you're just ascribing your own modern opinion on the past

I think that applies to you . The only person that seemed to think the 32X and Jaguar were doing well months in , everyone else knew otherwise .

No. Here's your rabid anti-32X-ism showing again. It wasn't until Fall of 95 that anyone lost faith in the 32X, and that was ONLY because SEGA made it clear that it no longer had their support - that SEGA was throwing everything behind the Saturn to compete with the PSX.

Winter and Spring showed tremendous positivity towards the 32X - it had a bright and glowing future, with many big titles in the works. The late Spring launch of the Saturn (almost half a year early) caused a lot of confusion, but people were still optimistic about the 32X. After all, it wasn't aimed at the same demographic as the Saturn. Through the summer, we started to see third party devs canceling 32X projects - each with a tale about SEGA pressuring them to drop the 32X to focus on the Saturn, and THAT led to the loss of faith in the Fall. It wasn't until after xmas 95 that retailers started dumping the 32X and games - that last xmas, prices were still fairly high in an effort to recoup their money. As seath mentioned, it was still in the $100 range at most places.

[TVC 15]

You know, I'm really tired at the moment so my contribution to this thread will be very short for now, but I just want to put this aspect into perspective for this debate, maybe get some people thinking. The biggest issue for me with the 32X and the Saturn in tandem is not over-saturating the market or even competing with each other, I feel an issue that needs addressing and needs more time is the needs and wants of two separate markets, Japan and America. I feel this is the real crux of the issue with both systems, support etc, could these systems effectively split the company in two, the needs of two markets collided I feel, and that was the issue with the 32X and Saturn.

Bar the price in the EU, the 32X seemed far more tailored to the west in its conception and likewise the Saturn for Japan. I remain open in this debate, but people really need to get a grip and tackle these debate analytically and constructively, people are inflaming there passions in this debate when a cool head is needed, and then straw-maning Sheath without conclusively examining what he's trying to get at here, trying to build a much more authoritative picture of the 32X in 94-95. People seem to be repeating these same pre-constructed narratives, regurgitated from the press and internet groupthink mixed with hyperbole and of course a dash of emotional post-Sega collapse angst.

There was a very real buzz around the system, even here in the UK, in Mean Machines I explicitly remember the issue that reviewed quite a few 32X games being cautiously positive (to use a word), and I remember those Lemon and Zyrinx tech demo screen shots along with the Neptune proposal in another issue, I can only say I subjectively was very interested as I can't speak for a whole populous and how they felt about the 32X but the press didn't automatically label the 32X as a piece of shit.

Magazines like EDGE on the other hand gave air to people like Trip Hawkins who could give nice reductive edgy soundbites; do we not forget his statements regarding the abysmal performance of the original Daytona USA? From that standpoint didn't he estimate his own system, the 3DO was on-par technically with the Saturn, since under Daytona the Saturn struggled with 60,000 polys a second? And these for a period where used a barometer of the Saturn's supposed technical inferiority? Whilst also scornfully labelling the 32X as a "stopgap". I'm quite interested how these little quotes make for great copy, but are quite parasitic in how they manage to stick around in the mind of the average consumer. Sega's other problem seemed for a time from about 94-98 a complete inability to control its own PR and came to be under some quite merciless industry gossip and chatter, I also wonder if this has any conclusive bias in the whole Sega narrative in this period. Even Nintendo comparatively seemed a darling to the industry compared to Sega, Nintendo seems to have gotten away quite lightly. But then when as a company your not a shell of your former self like Sega became you have much greater control of your own narrative history. Sega post-DC has never been afforded that much.

Also another point, lest we forget the Sega Neptune. David Braben has even pointed out Darxide was meant to launch alongside the Sega Neptune in late 95', this indicated to me (at the time however fleetingly) Sega was very interested in getting behind the system, and perhaps indicated, btw this is only conjecture and my own opinion, there was another marketing push to come that never came, why would Sega even entertain the whole Neptune idea? Of course things turned out differently, there was something behind the scenes, strings were pulled and the 32X was one string to be cut.

Oh wait that was quite long was'nt it...

[Chilly Willy]

You know, I'm really tired at the moment so my contribution to this thread will be very short for now, but I just want to put this aspect into perspective for this debate, maybe get some people thinking. The biggest issue for me with the 32X and the Saturn in tandem is not over-saturating the market or even competing with each other, I feel an issue that needs addressing and needs more time is the needs and wants of two separate markets, Japan and America. I feel this is the real crux of the issue with both systems, support etc, could these systems effectively split the company in two, the needs of two markets collided I feel, and that was the issue with the 32X and Saturn.

Bar the price in the EU, the 32X seemed far more tailored to the west in its conception and likewise the Saturn for Japan. I remain open in this debate, but people really need to get a grip and tackle these debate analytically and constructively, people are inflaming there passions in this debate when a cool head is needed, and then straw-maning Sheath without conclusively examining what he's trying to get at here, trying to build a much more authoritative picture of the 32X in 94-95. People seem to be repeating these same pre-constructed narratives, regurgitated from the press and internet groupthink mixed with hyperbole and of course a dash of emotional post-Sega collapse angst.

Very good points. I think that's probably the case.

Also another point, lest we forget the Sega Neptune. David Braben has even pointed out Darxide was meant to launch alongside the Sega Neptune in late 95', this indicated to me (at the time however fleetingly) Sega was very interested in getting behind the system, and perhaps indicated, btw this is only conjecture and my own opinion, there was another marketing push to come that never came, why would Sega even entertain the whole Neptune idea? Of course things turned out differently, there was something behind the scenes, strings were pulled and the 32X was one string to be cut.

Yes, the Neptune IS a good indicator that the 32X WAS bigger (at least in the West) than some people want you to think.

[Team Andromeda]

There was a very real buzz around the system, even here in the UK, in Mean Machines I explicitly remember the issue that reviewed quite a few 32X games being cautiously positive (to use a word), and I remember those Lemon and Zyrinx tech demo screen shots along with the Neptune proposal in another issue, I can only say I subjectively was very interested as I can't speak for a whole populous and how they felt about the 32X but the press didn't automatically label the 32X as a piece of shit.

I have every issue of Means Machines/SEGA and while at the start they were positive and believing all of SEGA Europe Hype including how it was more powerful than the Saturn and could handle VHS standards of FMV. Mean Machines SEGA and Official Sega mag quickly turned on the system , especially Steve on Mean Machines SEGA who was less than favorable to system and the Mega CD

Yes, the Neptune IS a good indicator that the 32X WAS bigger (at least in the West) than some people want you to think

Well SEGA though it be bigger and was looking for a all in one fix. What next because SEGA made the Wondermega , the Mega CD was BIG in Japan, because Atari had made a all in One combo Jaguar and CD drive , the Jaguar was massive . I seem to remember AT&T showing off a 3DO . Lots of companies will show off hardware and prototypes , but that's what some will only be, if the 1st gen of Hardware doesn't take off
SEGA had huge plans for the DC, even got it down to single chip and done a lovely deal with Swatch to be able to buy cinema tickets trough the DC and straight to your watch . A whole massive list of plans what will just be that, thanks to sales being not good enough


People just need to expect that while SEGA hoped the 32X would be huge , months in 3rd parties, retail and the press moved on and just weren't impressed .

[TVC 15]

I have every issue of Means Machines/SEGA and while at the start they were positive and believing all of SEGA Europe Hype including how it was more powerful than the Saturn and could handle VHS standards of FMV. Mean Machines SEGA and Official Sega mag quickly turned on the system , especially Steve on Mean Machines SEGA who was less than favorable to system and the Mega CD

And, how does that disprove anything I've said or what Sheath's said? Initial reception to the 32X was favourable overall, a few nayersayer here, a few fence sitters there, but overall the press hardly castigated it as a failure at launch. I can't remember anything about them saying it was powerful than Saturn, but then I'am recounting from memory from those issues I had, I don't honestly think anybody thought the 32X was better than the Saturn, Sega's strategy, however ill-thought seemed at least reasonably clear, the 32X for the low end, the Saturn for the high. The issues however where about Sega's clarity on the issue, the needed to categorically state there intentions with the 32X, plenty of people thought both systems where cross-compatible, even including me. When I first got my 32X from a boot-sale cheap I initially thought the 32X carts would be compatible with my Saturn, since the memory carts looked so similar.

Well SEGA though it be bigger and was looking for an all in one fix. What next because SEGA made the Wondermega , the Mega CD was BIG in Japan, because Atari had made a all in One combo Jaguar and CD drive, the Jaguar was massive. I seem to remember AT&T showing off a 3DO. Lots of companies will show off hardware and prototypes, but that's what some will only be, if the 1st gen of Hardware doesn't take off.
SEGA had huge plans for the DC, even got it down to single chip and done a lovely deal with Swatch to be able to buy cinema tickets trough the DC and straight to your watch. A whole massive list of plans what will just be that, thanks to sales being not good enough

People just need to expect that while SEGA hoped the 32X would be huge , months in 3rd parties, retail and the press moved on and just weren't impressed .

I will say this, Sega actively began turning developers away from the 32X in 95', Chilly has already brough that to the table. In business, and heck in Japan, its known as Martys law after the FM Towns Marty... "if you don't keep offering something to sell, you can't increase sales", if your actively curtailing development for a system you have nothing to sell for that system, everything assosicated with it, PR from new titles drops and you create a self-fufilling snowball where interest in the public begins to wanes because your not creating any interest in that system.

Look at the Saturn, plenty of people have criticised Bernie Stolar's heavy-handed mis-treatment of the Saturn in the US and western market, by putting the console on damage reduction your effectively sending a shockwave through to the press and the public that you don't even have any confidence in your own system anymore. Its self-fufilling, software release lists begin emptying because 3rd parties have decreasing interest, the consumer sees less and less titles are being sold and released as 3rd party support drops then most interest and support drops even further as the user base gets eroded.

[Team Andromeda]

And, how does that disprove anything I've said or what Sheath's said? Initial reception to the 32X was favourable overall, a few nayersayer here

So ? the CD32 sold well at the start , at the start launch sales of the Mega CD were pretty stunning . Months in the story changes and retail and 3rd parties drop the system. I'm sure the 1st year sales of the DC were ahead of that of the Cube and the X-box , but even with that . Retail and 3rd parties were dropping the DC and poor sales in Japan and Europe the year after forced SEGA's hand

I can't remember anything about them saying it was powerful than Saturn, but then I'am recounting from memory from those issues I had,

SEGA Europe made out otherwise along with utter lies about the 32X could handle VHS quality FMV . Now you go on about Mean Machines , you want me to post what the likes of Mean Machines Steve Merret had to say about the 32X a few months down the line, more so in his Q&A section . Let me tell you its not pretty reading to any 32X fan

The issues however where about Sega's clarity on the issue, the needed to categorically state there intentions with the 32X, plenty of people thought both systems where cross-compatible, even including me. When I first got my 32X from a boot-sale cheap I initially thought the 32X carts would be compatible with my Saturn, since the memory carts looked so similar.

Well I have no idea where you got that from . To be fair to SEGA, SEGA officially it was made very clear early in , that the Saturn wouldn't be able to play Mega CD, Mega Drive or 32X games .

I will say this, Sega actively began turning developers away from the 32X in 95', Chilly has already brough that to the table

Only because the system wasn't selling and retail and 3rd parties were dumping the system in their droves . Atari was having developing focus more on the Jaguar than the Falcon , now people like you or chilly may well put that down to Atari. Most will know the real reason was because the Falcon wasn't selling well at retail and Atari had to alter it's plans

Look at the Saturn, plenty of people have criticised Bernie Stolar's heavy-handed mis-treatment of the Saturn in the US and western market, by putting the console on damage reduction your effectively sending a shockwave through to the press and the public that you don't even have any confidence in your own system anymore

Bad and poor example for one BIG reason, at the time of the Bernie dropping of the Saturn, SEGA America had no other system to support and the planned DC was 2 years away from hitting the USA. So you drop your own console and having nothing to offer the console gamer for 2 years . Nice one Bernie , when you had dicks like and the rest of baboons at SEGA America in 32bit age, SONY had to do nothing other than laugh

[sheath]

There are two active torrents for Mean Machines and Mean Machines Sega issues if anybody is interested. I will post the relevant articles in chronological order when I have them. Anybody else can feel free to jump to the end and claim it was always that way though.

[Chilly Willy]

SEGA Europe made out otherwise along with utter lies about the 32X could handle VHS quality FMV .

That's not a lie - the 32X is MORE than capable of VHS quality FMV. Have you ever bothered to play any of the CD32X FMV games? The TruMotion games in particular prove this point.

Again we see that unreasoning hatred for all things 32X that clouds your judgement in this one area... you hate it so much you have to lie about it - with lies that are easily disproven! We've had threads here at SEGA-16 on the difference between SCD and CD32X FMV games, and the videos posted for the CD32X easily meet or exceed VHS quality.

[StarMist]

SEGA Europe made out otherwise along with utter lies about the 32X could handle VHS quality FMV .

This sounds like a slight stretch to me as well but most people nowadays pretend VHS was like watching a film through smoked glass.
The deceit I remember was some cavalier wording in the early advertising it would make one's preexisting MD games better; I also remember magazines remarking on customer complaints about this, which says they must've been pretty prominent since by then all my mag reading (never much) went towards the Playstation.

Now you go on about Mean Machines , you want me to post what the likes of Mean Machines Steve Merret had to say about the 32X a few months down the line, more so in his Q&A section . Let me tell you its not pretty reading to any 32X fan

Do. It'd be an interesting read and sheath wants more facts.

[sheath]

This sounds like a slight stretch to me as well but most people nowadays pretend VHS was like watching a film through smoked glass.
The deceit I remember was some cavalier wording in the early advertising it would make one's preexisting MD games better; I also remember magazines remarking on customer complaints about this, which says they must've been pretty prominent since by then all my mag reading (never much) went towards the Playstation.

Looking at Fahrenheit, Night Trap and Supreme Warrior on my HDTV, I would also say that the 32X CD FMV quality was at least VHS quality. The only digital quality above that at the time was the 3DO (More RAM) and CDI, plus Laserdisk. All of which are "better" than VHS quality, but possibly not by a huge measurable degree. I'd put Laserdisk up against 90s DVDs anyday though. Side Track!

Do. It'd be an interesting read and sheath wants more facts.

Your sanity is like a breath of fresh air on a cool morning.

[Barone]

There are two active torrents for Mean Machines and Mean Machines Sega issues if anybody is interested. I will post the relevant articles in chronological order when I have them. Anybody else can feel free to jump to the end and claim it was always that way though.

Please, PM the links to me.

[sheath]

Mean Machines Sega on the 32X, December 1994. I usually hesitate to cite company specific magazines in any way, but more and more I am realizing they were staffed by the same "highly qualified professionals" as the multi-platform magazines. Bottom Line: Lots of Money Spent By Corporations.