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Thread: Repro Selling on Sega-16

  1. #16
    Sega Nerd WCPO Agent oldskool's Avatar
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    Very true, I have edited the last post - not that it really makes a difference or anything. But I like those places and I'd hate to see them go away any time soon. I'm sure after a decade of being around, they are not going to go anywhere though. The only game I have noticed that is missing from some of the ROM sites is Sonic. And it's always the US version. For some reason the EU and JP versions are always present. So maybe SOA did contact some of those sites and just told them to take down the Sonic ROMS but not everything else cause they could care less about everything else.

    Also, Sega really could only ask that THEIR roms be taken down. Everyone else like Konami and Capcom would probably have to do the same, specifically for their games. I am not sure if Sega has the rights to down a complete site, or just the files that belong to them.

    In any case, I really think that we are over thinking this a bit. I really don't think it's an issue - at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cornholio857 View Post
    I don't see a problem with Repros of unreleased, fan translated or prototype games. But selling Repros/Burned Discs of games that were released IMO I see as a no go.

    That's just my 2 cents though.
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    Wildside Expert Iced Snowman's Avatar
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    Long live Repros!

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    Slightly off of the main topic, but how would unlicensed homebrew versions of copyrighted material come into play with all of this? (in the case of actual physical releases, or digital releases)
    Obviously, open source stuff wouldn't be an issue (as long as the freeware portions are used exclusively -like Chilly Willy's stuff), but there's been some friction over homebrew ports/projects before in the retro community (some things on Atariage come to mind -especially some things for Colecovision), though never any actual legal issues/action. (just complaints and arguments among actual forum members)

    Hacks of existing games might also be a gray area, though (depending on how extensive a hack is), they also may not even be a version of the original game. (though obviously still using copyrighted material without permission of the IP holder)

    Or for that matter, not just modern hacks, but what about old pirate/hacked games for various systems? (like Super Mario World 64 on the MD, Super Boy on the MSX and SMS, among various others)
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    So's your old man! Raging in the Streets zetastrike's Avatar
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    What does it matter if it's a repro of a game that was never released, like Starfox 2? Nintendo never made any money off of it and AFAIK haven't made it available on the VC, so you're not taking any money away from them. I know it's a grey area, but I feel like certain types of repros are perfectly legit. If we go this far, then how can we talk about the Everdrive freely without the man shutting us down? As far as piracy goes, the ED is worse than a repro.
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  6. #21
    will hog your hedges... Raging in the Streets djshok's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zetastrike View Post
    What does it matter if it's a repro of a game that was never released, like Starfox 2? Nintendo never made any money off of it and AFAIK haven't made it available on the VC, so you're not taking any money away from them. I know it's a grey area, but I feel like certain types of repros are perfectly legit. If we go this far, then how can we talk about the Everdrive freely without the man shutting us down? As far as piracy goes, the ED is worse than a repro.
    I get ya, and believe me, I'm about as in favour of repros as it gets, but I'll play devil's advocate here and toss in my 2 cents as to why some sites might be wary of talking about repros. While Nintendo never made any money off Starfox 2, they still want to hold the rights to it in case they feel like making money from it at some point in the future ie: through VC or some classics compilation release. While unlikely as that is, it's well within their rights to hold on to the property and no doubt their lawyers would make this argument. Ie: "Well how do you know they weren't planning to sell it on VC, etc..." Also they may wish to keep their franchise to a certain quality standard, and if they feel that an incomplete/unreleased game with their name on it doesn't meet their standard then they probably don't want it out there making their franchise look bad and potentially ruining the sales of other Star Fox games. The same is true of any other unreleased games and the companies that own the copyrights to them. If they were so inclined they could always release those games on some form of digital platform. Most never do, but the whole thing with copyright laws is that they're based around securing what-if scenarios in your favour.

    Now what would be interesting would be checking up on copyrights to some unreleased games and seeing whether they're expired or not. Big titles like Star Fox are no doubt kept up to date, but lesser known properties like Jelly Boy may be within the public domain by now. Then of course you have properties like ResQ where the copyright owners made them available for free to the public and released the ROM themselves. So yeah, some of these thing are definitely more legal than others but trying to figure out which falls into what category would be a tricky task and no doubt is more trouble than any site admin is willing to deal with, and some people just prefer to err on the side of caution.

    Honestly there's nothing to stop you from talking about repros and roms via pm's and email, or doing it over at sega age which has much of the same user base as this site.
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  7. #22
    monsters of rock acdc's Avatar
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    well

    i can only say im for repro s yes i own more than 500 or origenal games but prices like 500 euro for eliminate down no way and if they make a repro of that one and with inglish translation and also a INSTRUCTION MANUAL with it then i buy it
    games that are made new like pier solar or other i welcome
    legend of wukong king colossus wonderboy 4 translated and wit a nice instruction manual why not what s the harm who cares about games 30 yaers old this generation is really not interested in these games anymore the want ps4 gta 3d super fantastic graphics let them
    i admire the men bratwurst who did soem really nice work for me making wonderboy 4 avaible playeble translated nice cover instruction manual with like fresh new mega drive game that always wanted to play since i was a kid but never had a chance

    i m for it and also selling there stuff if it s in great shape and made with love and yeah they want money for for the houers the spend to it but at the end you get a game that you always wanted to play but never had a chance

  8. #23
    Road Rasher needler420's Avatar
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    This is a very good stance on the matter. I have been banned from Nintendo Age and Digit press for attempting to rid the repro resellers.

    They have a very ignorant stance on the subject. The staff that run those two sites. I hope this site will be #1 site for everything SEGA better then Sega AGE.

    Nintendo age and Sega age act like a bunch of elitist collectors yet they allow piracy and copyright infringement to take place on their site. Making repros and profiting of off others work.


    To the people that say they support repros with excuses like I would support it if the game is too expensive or it wasn't released in your region are all excuses. Making repros is legit on a personal level when the maker of it receives no monetary gain unless he was the creator of the content. Not the labor in hacking a cart from a donor and re-flashing etc.

    If you say you support that practice, I say I support that you should be physically robbed of your video game collection with no sympathy from anyone.


    Quote Originally Posted by zetastrike View Post
    What does it matter if it's a repro of a game that was never released, like Starfox 2? Nintendo never made any money off of it and AFAIK haven't made it available on the VC, so you're not taking any money away from them. I know it's a grey area, but I feel like certain types of repros are perfectly legit. If we go this far, then how can we talk about the Everdrive freely without the man shutting us down? As far as piracy goes, the ED is worse than a repro.
    In this case with starfox 2 just because the content creators abandon their project does not give the right for some random person to come along and take that rom file and start putting it on carts for monetary gain.

    Also I wouldn't say everdrives are worse the whole premise of this concept is not to determine the amount of lost sales from the content creator whether or not they abandon their work. The premise is that someone who had no affiliation with the contents creativity does not make a monetary gain off someone else work.


    Someone using a everdrive is like someone making a repro cart for someone as a gift with no profit. That is just on a personal level. Not making profit off others work.

    I look at repro makers as creativity destroyers. They take the motivation and creative process of people and lowers it.
    Last edited by needler420; 06-18-2015 at 03:43 PM.

  9. #24
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    I understand this is a topic that has run it's course over the past 25 years or so of piracy and 16-bit emulation, too often vocal opinions blur the line between legality morality. Often what is illegal isn't necessarily immoral and vice versa. I can assure you everyone's opinion is already formed and no amount of internet pontification is going to change a thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by needler420 View Post
    Someone using a everdrive is like someone making a repro cart for someone as a gift with no profit. That is just on a personal level. Not making profit off others work.
    So if I make a repro of Starfox 2 (or any copyrighted material, released or not) and sell it then I'm a total asshole, but if I make a killing selling Everdrives and R4's for people to flash it themselves I'm just nifty? I don't see how a guy selling a single counterfeit cart or a 4-in-1 multi-game pirate is somehow a worse scumbag compared to a guy selling a cart or device that lets you illegally play every commercial game ever. I never thought of these Chinese plants 20 years ago turning out copiers to play ROMs on 3.5 inch floppies as Saints that were just helping us engross ourselves in the hobby.

    Quote Originally Posted by needler420 View Post
    Making repros is legit on a personal level when the maker of it receives no monetary gain [...] If you say you support that practice, I say I support that you should be physically robbed of your video game collection with no sympathy from anyone.
    Again, legality and morality with the amount of money dictating how "wrong" something is. I'd hazard a guess that only hardcore collectors are going to spring for a high dollar repro, Average Joe isn't. Average Joe will however drop $10 for a Playstation mod chip or $50 for an Everdrive to have access to the entire library of games and never purchase a thing again. Which practice hurt the hobby/market/game company more?

    Here's a thought. Virtually every website about classic Sega games uses screenshots, sprite rips, videos, or other artwork ripped directly from emulators. All these sites engaged in illegal activity by using a commercial ROM they didn't dump themselves. (And before the objections start, very very few people even own dumping devices. The argument that hundreds (thousands?) of content authors own an original cart, a dumper, and then redundantly dumped commercial games just to be 100% legal is fantasy. Nor is someone's Tripod site using a capture device and original carts and hardware to grab a simple screenshot.)

    No site ever exists in charity. If a website exists, whether its Gamespot, Sega-16, or some defunct Geocities page, someone is making money off it, whether it's ad revenue generated by the site or just the fees paid to the web host by the website owner that keeps it up as a labor of love. Money is being made, period. By visiting any of these sites you facilitate someone, somewhere in making cash and probably encourage other sites to pop up. If you believe people should be drawn and quartered for making money doing illegal things with copyrighted work how can you sanction one activity and condemn another?

  10. #25
    Road Rasher needler420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azathoth View Post
    I understand this is a topic that has run it's course over the past 25 years or so of piracy and 16-bit emulation, too often vocal opinions blur the line between legality morality. Often what is illegal isn't necessarily immoral and vice versa. I can assure you everyone's opinion is already formed and no amount of internet pontification is going to change a thing.



    So if I make a repro of Starfox 2 (or any copyrighted material, released or not) and sell it then I'm a total asshole, but if I make a killing selling Everdrives and R4's for people to flash it themselves I'm just nifty? I don't see how a guy selling a single counterfeit cart or a 4-in-1 multi-game pirate is somehow a worse scumbag compared to a guy selling a cart or device that lets you illegally play every commercial game ever. I never thought of these Chinese plants 20 years ago turning out copiers to play ROMs on 3.5 inch floppies as Saints that were just helping us engross ourselves in the hobby.



    Again, legality and morality with the amount of money dictating how "wrong" something is. I'd hazard a guess that only hardcore collectors are going to spring for a high dollar repro, Average Joe isn't. Average Joe will however drop $10 for a Playstation mod chip or $50 for an Everdrive to have access to the entire library of games and never purchase a thing again. Which practice hurt the hobby/market/game company more?


    Here's a thought. Virtually every website about classic Sega games uses screenshots, sprite rips, videos, or other artwork ripped directly from emulators. All these sites engaged in illegal activity by using a commercial ROM they didn't dump themselves. (And before the objections start, very very few people even own dumping devices. The argument that hundreds (thousands?) of content authors own an original cart, a dumper, and then redundantly dumped commercial games just to be 100% legal is fantasy. Nor is someone's Tripod site using a capture device and original carts and hardware to grab a simple screenshot.)

    No site ever exists in charity. If a website exists, whether its Gamespot, Sega-16, or some defunct Geocities page, someone is making money off it, whether it's ad revenue generated by the site or just the fees paid to the web host by the website owner that keeps it up as a labor of love. Money is being made, period. By visiting any of these sites you facilitate someone, somewhere in making cash and probably encourage other sites to pop up. If you believe people should be drawn and quartered for making money doing illegal things with copyrighted work how can you sanction one activity and condemn another?

    Everdrives are legal to make and sell them. They aren't selling them with pirated roms pre-installed. If they were then that would be illegal. Its up to the buyer whether he puts roms of physical copies he owns or resorts to piracy.


    And you're whole screen shots, artwork and videos being copyright material isn't. Some may be but the majority of it falls under the 7 seconds fair use of copyright material.

    It's why when a new game releases someone can make a walkthrough or review on youtube.

    I want one and not for piracy but to be able to play the games that are really expensive. I have 5 sega games that value together exceeds $500 so not putting wear and tear on them is nice.

    You're missing the point its not against the law to make and play a reproduction of a game. Its against the law if you dupe them and sell for monetary gain.

    Its the difference between burning the newest movie or music cd you like for personal use to watch at home or listen in your car. VS taking burned copies to a flea market to sell for monetary gain.

  11. #26
    The Gentleman Thief Baloo's Avatar
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    Dude...it's just video games. They aren't even released. Don't get too tightly wound up over it. Repros aren't going away anytime soon. There are plenty of great games that aren't available and playable on consoles because people have made reproductions. Super Fighter Team has done some great work in this regard, albeit with the licenses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baloo View Post
    Dude...it's just video games. They aren't even released. Don't get too tightly wound up over it. Repros aren't going away anytime soon. There are plenty of great games that aren't available and playable on consoles because people have made reproductions. Super Fighter Team has done some great work in this regard, albeit with the licenses.
    They should acquire licenses then because if they didn't it means the content creator hasn't given permission nor forfeited his right or anything. It's sitting in limbo in other words and a random person is taking advantage.

    Doesn't matter how good you say the content of the games are stealing is stealing.

    If you look at pier solar that game was made fully licensed and legal. Legal trouble even delayed the game.

    That's why I never understood when people say there is a gray area when it comes to repros when its not its black and white.

    If you look at sites like OCD reproductions what they are doing isn't legal but its also something that is not regulated in the slightest. No one is going to come knocking on their door and worst case scenarios with sites like that is they get cease and deist letters. I think time walk games starting having legal trouble from their reproductions because they got too big online with them.

    Just cause something is never regulated and nothing will ever happen from it doesn't take away that its unlawful and on a ethic and moral scale I have to agree because it is protection for creators and creativity.


    I have actually reported many people and sites in the past to Sony and Nintendo anti piracy divisions.

    I used to be heavily involved into modern piracy with modern systems. I have been on forums where I have heard stories of members getting their doors kicked down and computers and electronic devices taken but that is rare and takes a commercial scale where you clearly are making money on things you have no entitlement to.

    But I do see cases of copyright infringement resulting with fines.
    Last edited by needler420; 06-21-2015 at 08:54 PM.

  13. #28
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    I don't see repros as fundamentally that different from "regular" piracy. If I'm going to play Star Fox 2 -- which I have no legal means of acquiring -- what difference does it make whether I play it via a ROM downloaded to a flash cart or via a donor cart with a swapped out eeprom? Repros are just a bit fancier.

    By the same token, obviously, repro selling shouldn't be allowed on gaming forums.
    Last edited by j_factor; 06-21-2015 at 09:26 PM.


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  14. #29
    Road Rasher needler420's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j_factor View Post
    I don't see repros as fundamentally that different from "regular" piracy. If I'm going to play Star Fox 2 -- which I have no legal means of acquiring -- what difference does it make whether I play it via a ROM downloaded to a flash cart or via a donor cart with a swapped out eeprom? Repros are just a bit fancier.
    The only difference is with the rom at least the cart maker isn't making monetary gain.

    You can say the same thing with movies and music if its unreleased and someone burns them on discs and sells them making a killing I don't call that non regular piracy. That would be a case of piracy.


    If you are making or getting made the cart on a personal level without anyone trying to profit then that's fair use and considered personal use.


    And yes most gaming forums don't allow the sales of reproductions or piracy related devices. Some sites like gamespot and gamefaqs are very strict on even discussion on it. Legal discussion may slide but indicating or helping anyone to enable such things can get you banned.

    Sites like Nintendo age allows it. Which is funny because I reported some of their members to Nintendo anti piracy and they try to be the most elite community on Nintendo but they actually take advantage of nintendo with all the copyright infringement they do.

    This is why I support games like pier solar and things watermelon publishes. While there are still shady practices its done in the most legal way possible to release a new game for a old system. Which isn't called a reproduction its a new game for sega genesis. No one is going to get screwed in present or future everyone was happy with ending result. Content creativity thrives.
    Last edited by needler420; 06-21-2015 at 09:35 PM.

  15. #30
    I DON'T LIKE POKEMON Hero of Algol j_factor's Avatar
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    I'm not seeing how profit fundamentally changes things. I can download a cartridge label image off the internet, pay a copy shop for a high-quality print on sticker paper, and put it on myself. Or I can be lazy and pay someone to do it for me. Same thing.

    Either way I'm pirating the game. It's not lesser pirating if I'm more DIY about it.
    Last edited by j_factor; 06-22-2015 at 02:14 AM.


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