So, like, is Star Blade does use teh FMV for its polygons or not, yo?

[Barone]

Starblade is cool, but the Sega CD is really not the version your should be playing.

I cannot even imagine why the Sega CD version of Star Blade has vector like graphics or the enemies when Silpheed had already done full FMV plus filled polygons for enemies. I suppose this is just because Namco really never was all that great at programming.

Exactly why it was included. The Sega CD was not a good system for this and we were therefore graced with something that would be more suited to the Playstation or Saturn. The Sega CD is simply the wrong system. Wireframe graphics were used because those are the destructible objects in the game and they need to explode/go away when they are defeated. Silpheed didn't have this issue.

I like the Sega CD version of Starblade. If you play it using the mouse it's more enjoyable and less frustrating though...

About the graphics, yes, the wireframe objects are kinda ugly but IMO you guys got it backwards...
The Sega CD version is the only console version that renders in 3D everything that you see on screen, including the background spaceships and objects; the arcade was like that. While the 3DO and PS1 versions use FMV for the background and just render a few 3D ships and objects. And even so, the 3D objects don't look as good as the arcade ones, especially on the PS1 thanks to its bad perspective correction.
The sfx are great on the Sega CD, they made good use of the Ricoh soundchip and the stereo sensation (don't know how to write it properly, I mean when you hear the ship going from one side to another, the laser sound, etc...) is on par with the 32-bit versions.

By the way, to compare the FMV usage in Silpheed with what could have been done for Starblade on the Sega CD is not so easy. Silpheed was developed with the VDP limitation in mind and IMO Starblade's background would look grainy and much worse if FMV had been used.

I also don't get the comment that "Namco really never was all that great at programming". At least for the Genesis it isn't true. Burning Force looks and plays a lot better than the other sprite scaling-based games released for the system by other companies at the same time, including Sega. Splatterhouse, especially part 3, is a blast to play. Rolling Thunder games had great soundtrack... As well as Dangerous Seed.
So I don't get it...

[sheath]

How did you conclude that the background ships and objects were being rendered by the Sega CD? The amount of detail in the backgrounds seems well above what the Sega CD should could be capable of to me, it looks like it'd give 32X engines like Star Wars Arcade a serious run for its money too.



As for Namco, I just like to rip on them. Yeah, in the Genesis days they were pretty good some of the time.

[Barone]

How did you conclude that the background ships and objects were being rendered by the Sega CD? The amount of detail in the backgrounds seems well above what the Sega CD should could be capable of to me, it looks like it'd give 32X engines like Star Wars Arcade a serious run for its money too.

Video

How did you conclude that the background ships and objects were NOT being rendered by the Sega CD?
That video has shitty quality, so it's impossible to judge using it.
Run Starblade (Sega CD) on a emulator without filtering and you'll see what I'm talking about. Compare with Silpheed. Run PS1 Starblade on a Emulator without filtering. You'll see how many video artifacts you get in the background of PS1's Starblade and how grainy is the background of Silpheed in comparison to Sega CD's Starblade. But some objects in Silpheed are also rendered.
If Starblade's (Sega CD) background is FMV then it's certainly the most advanced codec ever made and Sega CD FMV capabilities are far superior to any 32-bit console.

If you play the 32-bit versions you'll also notice that some big ships can't be attacked 'cause they are just a video background while in the arcade and Sega CD versions you can destroy parts of them, sometimes huge parts...

People usually think that all Sega CD games run off the Genesis processor and that Sega CD can't render some polygons but they are wrong, sheath.
I agree that Starblade's engine is impressive, that's why I came here to defend its graphics.

Sadly the game was severely panned by the Sega-16 review and with nonsense arguments in some parts... The reviewer seemed to not know that the game was an arcade port to begin with... He complains about the game using just one button while it was supposed to be played with a mouse which he certainly didn't use and, after all, it was exactly like that on the arcade. There's also a huge crying about the lack o music during the gameplay but it was just like on the arcade...
Starblade surely isn't a great game but IMO it's not as crappy as people usually says, always panning all aspects of the game including the technical one which sounds pretty wrong to me.

[sheath]

Starblade as a game is a great rail shooter, no matter the graphics. I haven't owned Starblade for Sega CD, I only rented it back in the day and recall significant artifacts and dithering in the backgrounds, I'll have to check it out again. When I was questioning homebrewers about Silpheed's artifact-free backgrounds I was told to look to the Sega CD 2 for evidence it was in fact video. Apparently if popping the lid kept backgrounds going for a bit the game was running from the Sega CD, when I tested it Silpheed froze immediately. I think I tested the same on the X'Eye. My first problem with this solution remains that, unlike the first two Playstations, the Sega CDs all jump to the bios when the lid is popped or freeze by design. Of course, it's been so long since I loaded my Sega CD 2 up I don't remember what it does. The Playstation 1 and 2 definitely just play out whatever is loaded into RAM while cutting out the music in most games.

Since then I have seen a lot more discussion on Silpheed's approach and have seen enough discussion on the Sega CD's polygon capability that I doubt it could do Silpheed or Star Blade quality backgrounds. But then, I recall Chilly Willy saying that the Sega CD's sub-CPU, RAM and Graphics CoProcessor were sufficient to achieve near SVP quality 3D. I don't doubt that, but I just haven't seen a 3D on rails demo to show anything near what Silpheed and Star Blade were doing.

-edit-

I hadn't realized that I never updated the StarBlade 3DO and Silpheed pages on gamepilgrimage with the gameplay videos I posted years ago on the old site. Also, I just snagged the Sega CD version of StarBlade complete from Amazon used and cracked for $13. Now to get my butt in gear and start making these comparison videos again.

[TVC 15]

Is there a chance that Starblade was using pre-calculated geometry and just passing that onto the Sega-CD, hence why its a fixed route. Its the trick Crash Bandicoot uses for the insane draw distances on the tunnel sections.

Essentially most of the heavy 3D lifting is already done, geometry calculations etc, then its just passed onto the graphics hardware to display.

Or it could just be insanely good FMV.

[Barone]

Starblade as a game is a great rail shooter, no matter the graphics. I haven't owned Starblade for Sega CD, I only rented it back in the day and recall significant artifacts and dithering in the backgrounds, I'll have to check it out again.

Artifacts? I don't see any, just dithering for fake color purposes.

When I was questioning homebrewers about Silpheed's artifact-free backgrounds I was told to look to the Sega CD 2 for evidence it was in fact video. Apparently if popping the lid kept backgrounds going for a bit the game was running from the Sega CD, when I tested it Silpheed froze immediately. I think I tested the same on the X'Eye. My first problem with this solution remains that, unlike the first two Playstations, the Sega CDs all jump to the bios when the lid is popped or freeze by design. Of course, it's been so long since I loaded my Sega CD 2 up I don't remember what it does. The Playstation 1 and 2 definitely just play out whatever is loaded into RAM while cutting out the music in most games.

I did the test one minute ago using my Mega CD 2. After popping the lid the game still runs fine for something like 2 seconds.

Since then I have seen a lot more discussion on Silpheed's approach and have seen enough discussion on the Sega CD's polygon capability that I doubt it could do Silpheed or Star Blade quality backgrounds. But then, I recall Chilly Willy saying that the Sega CD's sub-CPU, RAM and Graphics CoProcessor were sufficient to achieve near SVP quality 3D. I don't doubt that, but I just haven't seen a 3D on rails demo to show anything near what Silpheed and Star Blade were doing.

I'm with Chilly Willy. IMO it would be possible a downgraded/simplified version of Star Wars Arcade for the Sega CD. Or at least a downgraded version of VR. But probably it would be ugly and choppy as hell.

Also, I just snagged the Sega CD version of StarBlade complete from Amazon used and cracked for $13. Now to get my butt in gear and start making these comparison videos again.

Great. If you play for some minutes, still in the first stage of the game (IIRC) you'll see one of the big ships that I mentioned: truly rendered and interactive part of the game in the Sega CD and completely dead video playback in the 32bit versions.

Is there a chance that Starblade was using pre-calculated geometry and just passing that onto the Sega-CD, hence why its a fixed route. Its the trick Crash Bandicoot uses for the insane draw distances on the tunnel sections.

Essentially most of the heavy 3D lifting is already done, geometry calculations etc, then its just passed onto the graphics hardware to display.

It sounds about right since the Sega CD access led indicates that something is being constantly loaded from the CD.
It's a fixed route 'cause the arcade game was already like that, but certainly it's what makes possible to use such trick.

[Joe Redifer]

How did you conclude that the background ships and objects were NOT being rendered by the Sega CD?

Well, for one, the Sega CD is not technically capable of rendering the polygons onscreen. The ONLY 3D thing it is rendering are the wireframes and I'm not even confident that those are true 3D. If it were rendering everything else, then why are there wireframes at all? Secondly, the Sega CD is constantly accessing like it does with Silpheed. There is no music at all so there's no need to stream music. What is it streaming? FMV, of course. Also, stick the CD into your computer and look how much memory it takes up. If it were rendering 3D graphics like that on the fly, it would be a very small game, size wise. It's not. Starblade uses FMV. 100% fact. Case closed.

[Barone]

Well, for one, the Sega CD is not technically capable of rendering the polygons onscreen.

I didn't understand what exactly you meant but as long as Genesis can do games like F-15 Strike Eagle II I don't see why the Sega CD sub-CPU couldn't do something similar but running faster.

The ONLY 3D thing it is rendering are the wireframes and I'm not even confident that those are true 3D.

What is "true 3D"?

If it were rendering everything else, then why are there wireframes at all? Secondly, the Sega CD is constantly accessing like it does with Silpheed. There is no music at all so there's no need to stream music. What is it streaming? FMV, of course. Also, stick the CD into your computer and look how much memory it takes up. If it were rendering 3D graphics like that on the fly, it would be a very small game, size wise. It's not. Starblade uses FMV. 100% fact. Case closed.

I think you're pretty wrong. It can be really using pre-calculated geometry like some other games used for the backgrounds or "on rails" segments and that also takes up a lot of memory.
Probably this is the same trick that is used during Silpheed's intro and in that sequence before the first stage. That isn't FMV.
There are no video artifacts or grainy signs in the backgrounds like in Silpheed, how do you explain that?

Hopefully Chilly Willy will be able to solve this case properly.

[sheath]

Artifacts? I don't see any, just dithering for fake color purposes.

This could be, if there isn't any artifacts then it could be uncompressed super low color video. By dithering, I meant that I could see a grid of dithered pixels over the screen like in Tomcat Alley or many PS1 games. Obviously the presence of dithering doesn't prove anything.

I did the test one minute ago using my Mega CD 2. After popping the lid the game still runs fine for something like 2 seconds.

That is significant. I'll do the same with my X'Eye and Sega CD 2 when I get a chance, and then again when my new to me StarBlade comes in. Seriously though, if GameArts didn't do it being a Sega 2nd Party developer, I seriously doubt that Namco learned the Sega CD better. It'd make for an interesting turn of events though.

I'm with Chilly Willy. IMO it would be possible a downgraded/simplified version of Star Wars Arcade for the Sega CD. Or at least a downgraded version of VR. But probably it would be ugly and choppy as hell.

There are a ton of ways that segments could be streamed as video or pre-rendered filled polygons, or rotoscoped blablalba. I don't think that many of the cartoon cutscenes in games like Spiderman and Wonderdog are running FMV either, but full screen streaming animation. It is possible that something similar could be done for an on rails rendered 3D background as well. The Graphics CoProcessor's blitting abilities, and bandwidth to the VDP are hardly well documented.

Great. If you play for some minutes, still in the first stage of the game (IIRC) you'll see one of the big ships that I mentioned: truly rendered and interactive part of the game in the Sega CD and completely dead video playback in the 32bit versions.

I will definitely be looking forward to it. I love an interesting comparison.

It sounds about right since the Sega CD access led indicates that something is being constantly loaded from the CD.
It's a fixed route 'cause the arcade game was already like that, but certainly it's what makes possible to use such trick.

I am also not aware of any Sega CD games being able to stream actual game (non-FMV) data from the disk on the fly. To my knowledge Soul Reaver is the first noted fully 3D game to stream data on the fly, thereby eliminating load times between segments. If this was done earlier, I haven't seen it. I would love to know otherwise.

[Joe Redifer]

I didn't understand what exactly you meant but as long as Genesis can do games like F-15 Strike Eagle II I don't see why the Sega CD sub-CPU couldn't do something similar but running faster.

The Sega CD CPU isn't blazingly faster than the Genesis CPU. F-15 Strike Eagle runs at about 2 frames per month. Starblade runs at about 15 frames per second, the same rate as FMV on the system.

What is "true 3D"?

Able to move around any side at will. It's probably just precalculated geometry.

I think you're pretty wrong. It can be really using pre-calculated geometry like some other games used for the backgrounds or "on rails" segments and that also takes up a lot of memory.
Probably this is the same trick that is used during Silpheed's intro and in that sequence before the first stage. That isn't FMV.

Then #1, why is the Sega CD accessing the disc like crazy despite there being next to no sound in the game and #2 why are some graphics wireframes whereas others are not? The fact that the games stops playing after 2 seconds proves that it is streaming the graphics and they are not real 3D polygons. The memory runs out. Holding a buffer of 2 seconds worth of video is not at all unreasonable.

There are no video artifacts or grainy signs in the backgrounds like in Silpheed, how do you explain that?

Solid colors do not lend themselves to artifacts. Silpheed only had artifacts on the non-polygon looking stuff, such as the space backgrounds. However the polygon looking stuff didn't have any artifacts, either.

[Barone]

By dithering, I meant that I could see a grid of dithered pixels over the screen like in Tomcat Alley

Starblade doesn't have it.

Seriously though, if GameArts didn't do it being a Sega 2nd Party developer, I seriously doubt that Namco learned the Sega CD better. It'd make for an interesting turn of events though.

Maybe we should consider that GameArts was never nearly as big as Namco.

I am also not aware of any Sega CD games being able to stream actual game (non-FMV) data from the disk on the fly. To my knowledge Soul Reaver is the first noted fully 3D game to stream data on the fly, thereby eliminating load times between segments. If this was done earlier, I haven't seen it. I would love to know otherwise.

I think that some Neo Geo games had already used streamed data on the fly before that...

The Sega CD CPU isn't blazingly faster than the Genesis CPU.

7.67 MHz VS 12.5 MHz
It's significantly enough to turn the sloooow Super Hang-On on the Genesis in something very close to the arcade in terms of speed sensation.

F-15 Strike Eagle runs at about 2 frames per month.

OK but with the Genesis CPU overclocked to 12 MHz it runs a lot better, very playable.

Starblade runs at about 15 frames per second, the same rate as FMV on the system.

This doesn't allow for any conclusion about the usage of FMV.
Also, not all FMV games runs at 15 fps. It depends on several factors, like the size of the FMV screen.

Able to move around any side at will. It's probably just precalculated geometry.

IMO it doesn't make sense since you can explode the wireframe objects at any given time... So you're saying that the Sega CD would be able to load the precalculated geometry from the CD depending on the objects "alive" on the screen and it doesn't sound right to me. Some wireframes also explode into several parts and such parts are rendered depending on where the object exploded.
The wireframe objects also change their color when you hit them, if it makes any difference (I really don't know).

Then #1, why is the Sega CD accessing the disc like crazy

To load the precalculated geometry for the background.

despite there being next to no sound in the game and

The game has a lot of sound effects and the lack of music is just due to the fact that the original arcade game also didn't have music during the gameplay. The 32-bit versions also don't have in game music.
But again, it has no point in this discussion 'cause the game could have had music even if streaming video all the time... You just need to use the Genesis soundchip for that and/or the Sega CD soundchip, like Silpheed used. But Starblade is a bit different since it uses more PCM sfx than Silpheed (the in game explosions are done by the Genesis soundchip).
Wing Commander, for an example, uses the Genesis soundchip + Sega CD soundchip when you're not in the flying missions. And only the Genesis soundchip when you're in the flying missions 'cause it uses all the PCM RAM of the Sega CD to store the in game dialogues and do no loadings from the CD to avoid extra slowdowns during the gameplay. The music in this version is usually criticized for not being just CDDA version of the original and not as great as that was. In fact, it was impossible to have CDDA music since the game + its tons of PCM dialogue samples would not fit in a single CD. And the music is actually awesome if you consider that the Genesis soundchip is doing it alone.

#2 why are some graphics wireframes whereas others are not?

Already answered above.
Wireframes aren't precalculated, the rest is.

The fact that the games stops playing after 2 seconds proves that it is streaming the graphics and they are not real 3D polygons. The memory runs out. Holding a buffer of 2 seconds worth of video is not at all unreasonable.

You're saying that 'cause you did no test. Take any FMV game and open the lid, the FMV crashes at the same moment.
Don't know if it proves something but probably the opposite of what you're saying.

Solid colors do not lend themselves to artifacts. Silpheed only had artifacts on the non-polygon looking stuff, such as the space backgrounds. However the polygon looking stuff didn't have any artifacts, either.

IMO not all the non-interactive objects in Silpheed's background are FMV.
FMVs on the Sega CD are always full of artifacts, even on solid colors. Or do you have an example to prove the opposite?

[j_factor]

I am also not aware of any Sega CD games being able to stream actual game (non-FMV) data from the disk on the fly. To my knowledge Soul Reaver is the first noted fully 3D game to stream data on the fly, thereby eliminating load times between segments. If this was done earlier, I haven't seen it. I would love to know otherwise.

What exactly do you mean by "stream actual game data from the disk on the fly"? How is "streaming" game data different from accessing/loading it? Soul Reaver eliminated the appearance of load times by having choke points in the environment. Similar to portal rendering.

[Chilly Willy]

All consoles are capable of 3D polygons, even the Atari 2600... it's just a matter of how many in what period of time. There's a big thread on polygons in MD games on the site here somewhere where people pointed out things like racers with a few polygons. The stock MD can't do many at a decent frame rate, but the CD can do more. There was another thread on 3D on the SCD where someone pointed out to me a demo for the PC using a technique of drawing triangles using quads like the SCD can draw. A nice demo on the SCD showing just what rate it can draw polys would be nice. I've always intended to work on one, but I'm so busy I just haven't gotten around to it.

That said, it's easier for games on the SCD to stream video, like Silpheed. That would do a better job of presenting LOTS of polys than actually rendering them. Of course, that also means that said sequences would be on a track, like Silpheed. If it's not on a track, it quite possibly rendered. The SCD SHOULD be capable of something like the MD VR cart.

[Joe Redifer]

It's on a track. Even the wireframes are on a track. I believe the wireframes are precalculated coordinates but I'm not sure. You can't move around them at will, but they need to be able to disappear when the player destroys them. Everything else is FMV. Is sure is accessing the disc a lot if everything is precalculated coordinates, which it's not.

FMVs on the Sega CD are always full of artifacts, even on solid colors. Or do you have an example to prove the opposite?

Yes, Silpheed. There are no need for artifacts unless you have gradients/details in your colors. Take it from a guy who compresses video for a living. And since the video is likely uncompressed that lessens the chance even more. Ever try to make a GIF using only 8 colors or whatever and turn off dithering? Solid colors remain solid. Also, the video of the game is in a tiny window, smaller than most FMV games, probably the reason it lasts longer when you open the lid (plus the fact that it isn't streaming audio). Also, it would be easier for the programmers to do video than coordinates (which would take a lot of programming time and savvy). I believe it was Namco's first and last game for the Mega CD and it didn't come out early on. The Mega CD was already a huge failure in most territories before they even started working on it so logic demands that they would take the path of least resistance to make the game. Therefore they get it done faster and cheaper. Also, why would they use vectors on the Sega CD and FMV on far more powerful systems?





Welcome to Game Sack, MN12BIRD!

[Barone]

All consoles are capable of 3D polygons, even the Atari 2600... it's just a matter of how many in what period of time. There's a big thread on polygons in MD games on the site here somewhere where people pointed out things like racers with a few polygons. The stock MD can't do many at a decent frame rate, but the CD can do more. There was another thread on 3D on the SCD where someone pointed out to me a demo for the PC using a technique of drawing triangles using quads like the SCD can draw. A nice demo on the SCD showing just what rate it can draw polys would be nice. I've always intended to work on one, but I'm so busy I just haven't gotten around to it.

That said, it's easier for games on the SCD to stream video, like Silpheed. That would do a better job of presenting LOTS of polys than actually rendering them. Of course, that also means that said sequences would be on a track, like Silpheed. If it's not on a track, it quite possibly rendered. The SCD SHOULD be capable of something like the MD VR cart.

Thanks.

It's on a track. Even the wireframes are on a track. I believe the wireframes are precalculated coordinates but I'm not sure. You can't move around them at will, but they need to be able to disappear when the player destroys them. Everything else is FMV. Is sure is accessing the disc a lot if everything is precalculated coordinates, which it's not.

See below.

Yes, Silpheed. There are no need for artifacts unless you have gradients/details in your colors. Take it from a guy who compresses video for a living. And since the video is likely uncompressed that lessens the chance even more. Ever try to make a GIF using only 8 colors or whatever and turn off dithering? Solid colors remain solid.

Yep, you're right about this, Joe. I forgot about the possibility of uncompressed stuff, but you still will see granulation in some parts of the Silpheed's background (like the planets) and no granulation in Starblade.

Also, the video of the game is in a tiny window, smaller than most FMV games, probably the reason it lasts longer when you open the lid (plus the fact that it isn't streaming audio).

Again, this proves nothing. Virtua Racing on the Genesis run in a smaller window compared to the most of the other games but it's not a FMV. Another example is Duke Nukem 3D.

Also, it would be easier for the programmers to do video than coordinates (which would take a lot of programming time and savvy). I believe it was Namco's first and last game for the Mega CD and it didn't come out early on. The Mega CD was already a huge failure in most territories before they even started working on it so logic demands that they would take the path of least resistance to make the game. Therefore they get it done faster and cheaper.

This is just pure speculation. IMO it would have looked much worse using FMV.

Also, why would they use vectors on the Sega CD and FMV on far more powerful systems?

Maybe 'cause Sega CD sucks for FMV and the 32-bit consoles had much better playback quality?
Namco used FMV only for the background in the 32-bit versions. The other objects are polygons more complex and detailed than what you'll find in 32X's Star Wars Arcade for an example, Sega CD couldn't handle that...