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Thread: Genesis vs TurboGrafx Parallax. How do they compare?

  1. #151
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    The Neo Geo is not a home console. If it is then every consolized Arcade board is a home console too. You just can't get around the $200 per game cartridge thing even if you think the massive difference in console game ROM sizes and Neo Geo ROM sizes doesn't matter. Neo Geo CD is a home console because ordinary people could actually afford to buy more than one CD for it.

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    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    Just shows how dumb some people can be. The SH-4 is a plain 32-bit processor. The SH-5 was Hitachi's first 64-bit processor in the SuperH family. Forget about 128-bit. If you looked at what certain co-processing extensions worked on, you would call the old Pentium 4 a 128-bit CPU because of SSE.
    Not to mention how Super H is a fully 16-bit instruction architecture. (at least up through the SH4) Of course, that's generally one of its strengths. (high code density, especially good for cache efficiency, and reading code from main RAM in general -on top of fast cache fill and fitting more code into cache)

    The Pentium could also be considered 64-bit due to the 64-bit memory connection it supports. (Tiido mentioned the 486 does that too, but all the information I've seen -including pinout charts- only show 32 data lines)
    And on the other end of things there's the use of 16-bit wide buses with RDRAM on a number of late 90s and early 2000s PCs as well as the PS2.
    The Xbox actually has a 128-bit bus (via dual channeling), but it's still a 32-bit system as far as common convention goes.

    The Dreamcast DOES have the 128-bit vector processor on-die with the CPU, but that's not part of the CPU. (and would be very close to the same argument for the PS2's VUs making it 128-bit )





    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    There was also plenty of speculation about dual 68000 Arcade boards (and rumored Gigadrive home consoles) around the time that completely emphasized bitness and "bigger is better" specifications. Nintendo did this with the Super NES CD-ROM vaporware announcements as well. Marketing doesn't occur in a vacuum, it is based on consumer research. Also, evidence of something, and absolute quantified proof of something are two different things.
    You can combat marketing in a number of ways. Following the crowd can lead to a dead end while breaking from the norm (or directly combating the trendy marketing tactics of the time) can be a good options . . . or a bad one, it depends on the circumstances and the resources. (both monetary and human marketing talent -Sega was missing one of those in the SMS says in the US, and it wasn't money )

    I wouldn't say all of those were "bigger is better" either. The SNES CD looks like a realistic description of specs from what I've seen (mainly EGM press releases and editorials).
    It would be interesting to know exactly what that hardware was though. (I wonder if they were using the same NEC V-810 CPU as the Virtual boy and PC-FX)

    On the Dreamcast and PS2, I saw plenty of articles and arguments about the Dreamcast's SH-4 being "128-bit" because it could do 128-bit floating point calculations.
    lol, that's like saying the PS2 is 128-bit because of the VUs. (hell the 128-bit part of the DC's CPU isn't actually part of the CPU, it's an on-die coprocessor in the sense that the GTE and VUs are in PS1 and PS2, it's just consolidation, no different than using separate chips, just more cost effective)

    The 2 main areas of "bitness" are CPU architecture (mainly defined by the ALU and ability of the instruction set to perform operations of certain word sizes -not the word size of the instruction though, the SH1/2/3/4 are fully 16-bit architectures in that sense -as is the jaguar's RISC GPU/DSP), and bus width for graphics/CPU/etc. Usually bus width isn't used to define things as such, but it sometimes is promoted as such. (The SNES would be 8-bit in that sense, MD would be 8-bit on the video end and 16-bit on the CPU end, Jaguar would be 16, or 64-bit depending on the operation/processor in question, PSX is 32-bit -8 or 16 bit for audio -not sure, 3DO is 32-bit, Saturn is a mix of 16 and 32-bit, DC is 64-bit for CPU and video iirc, PS2 is mostly 16-bit RDRAM on the RAM end but mapped/buffered to various other widths, GC is 64-bit for the CPU, Xbox is 128-bit a la dual channel DDR, N64 would be 8/9 or 32-bit depending what processor -RAM is actually 9-bit, but the CPU has it connected to a 32-bit bus with considerable buffering iirc; I think the PS3 and 360 have a mix of 64 and 128-bit buses -I don't think video has 256-bit external bus connections)

    [quote]I wouldn't call the bitwars over by last gen, I'd say it died with the Dreamcast though.[quote]
    Yes, and a damn shame it didn't die sooner. Good riddance to bad rubbish. (at least the more recent tech spec wars are at least remotely useful in terms of performance comparison, still lots of sensationalist BS, but not quite as bad -MIPS, without context of the benchmark and architecture is rather pointless, FLOPs are somewhat useful but still vague and highly contextual, peak and average/nominal memory bandwidth is probably one of the more useful benchmarks even in a vague context -peak alone is pretty weak, but average/nominal figures from realistic benchmarks would be pretty useful)

    As for categorizing the generations by 8/16/32-bit, I think it causes less problems than the "x generation" approach. I personally have to think about which generation we're talking about when somebody says "4th Gen" or whatever. Non-gamers aren't going to have a clue what we are talking about. In addition to that, the generation lines are every bit as blurry as the "bitness" lines are.
    Just point them to wikipedia. (or use actual years/dates rather than bitness or numerical generation)
    I really don't like going by bitness as you've got 8-bit consoles/home computers from 1976 to 1987 (arguably 1990 since the SNES is arguably an 8-bit machine), and then there's the vagueness of when 32-bit comes into play (in some ways 68k based platforms could be considered 32-bit, '020 and 386 based machines definitely would be, etc).

    Numbered generations is not only the most practical way to distinguish the massive range of 8-bit consoles as well as the 1st generation consoles using dedicated hardware (ie "pong" consoles -though they include any hardwired logic based home machines).

    It's not perfect either, and you definitely can't go by fixed dates alone. (the end of one generation will usually heavily overlap with the beginning of another, sometimes even with last gen consoles being released AFTER current/nextgen consoles -like the Emerson Arcadia 2001 or Atari 2800)
    There's also the problem of hardware that falls in-between. The Colecovision, SG-1000, 5200, Vectrex (and a few more obscure Japanese examples) are obviously not 2nd gen machines like the Channel F, VCS, Astrocade, Intellivision, etc, but also hard to directly lump in with the 3rd gen consoles. (actually not so hard if it wasn't for the Master System making things really screwy; the 5200/CV/SG-1000 hardware are close enough to NES level tech to be considered early/lower-end 3rd gen -the 7800 also isn't that far off in some areas -MARIA is much more capable in most ways but there's other factors, but including the SMS, that gives a huge range of hardware . . . I suppose it's not much different than comparing 3DO/Jaguar to N64 though)





    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Sure, and I would only say that the bit label for the major consoles from 1985-1996 makes any sense to the majority of people. Unfortunately, "Atari Age" is the best label for earlier consoles. They almost function like a brand with people. I would have to come up with something catchy like "Next Generation" for the Sega CD, 3DO, Jaguar, and 32X, and I have no idea what I would call the last generation, the generation markers start making a lot more sense to me at that point.
    Yeah, except that "atari age" really includes 3 generations. 1st gen with dedicated hardware consoles (Pong, etc), 2nd gen with the Channel F/VCS/Astrocade/Intellivision, and early 3rd gen (arguably) with the Colecovision/5200/SG-1000/Vectrex (Famicom also fits that date given the 1983 release, same day as the SG-1000 for that matter).

    And that's if you don't bring computers in. (which WERE pretty much on the mainstream video game console market in the US in 1984-86, much more so in Europe -they were the dominant video game platforms in Europe from super low end to high end up until the early 90s)
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    The Neo Geo is not a home console. If it is then every consolized Arcade board is a home console too. You just can't get around the $200 per game cartridge thing even if you think the massive difference in console game ROM sizes and Neo Geo ROM sizes doesn't matter. Neo Geo CD is a home console because ordinary people could actually afford to buy more than one CD for it.
    I don’t understand how you can argue that it isn’t. A consolzed arcade board by some kid in his basement hadly represents an actual product from SNK shipped to video game distributers and advertised, marketed, and supported as a home video game console. If your definition of a video geme system being a home console is price then the 3DO was an arcade machine You see how silly that sounds? Hell the PS3 was expensive too. Your argument is flawed and doesn’t really make the case you want it too. Price has nothing to do with it.

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    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    lol, that's like saying the PS2 is 128-bit because of the VUs.
    Uh - the VUs aren't 128 bit and weren't why some people called the EE 128-bit. The PS2 CPU is a MIPS 5900 with an instruction extension VERY similar to the x86's MMX extension; however, its "mmx" was 128 bit instead of 64 bit like the x86's. It was that 128-bit extension that made some (idiots) call the EE a 128 bit CPU.

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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    lol, that's like saying the PS2 is 128-bit because of the VUs.
    Uh DUH, like everyone knows this!!!! We were just discussing this in class earlier today. Beyond obvious dude. DUH!!

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    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    I don’t understand how you can argue that it isn’t. A consolzed arcade board by some kid in his basement hadly represents an actual product from SNK shipped to video game distributers and advertised, marketed, and supported as a home video game console. If your definition of a video geme system being a home console is price then the 3DO was an arcade machine You see how silly that sounds? Hell the PS3 was expensive too. Your argument is flawed and doesn’t really make the case you want it too. Price has nothing to do with it.
    Apples to Oranges, but you're right it's not about the price. You can have "high-end" home consoles.
    Well... Price OF the console, the price of the games is relevant, well, relevant in the sense that it's due to the insane ROM size.
    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    I don’t understand how you can argue that it isn’t. A consolzed arcade board by some kid in his basement hadly represents an actual product from SNK shipped to video game distributers and advertised, marketed, and supported as a home video game console. If your definition of a video geme system being a home console is price then the 3DO was an arcade machine You see how silly that sounds? Hell the PS3 was expensive too. Your argument is flawed and doesn’t really make the case you want it too. Price has nothing to do with it.
    It's the games that make it not a proper console, or at least not the same thing as Genesis, SNES, etc. It is a console without a single console game. Every game was made to run on quarters in arcades.

  8. #158
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    I don’t understand how you can argue that it isn’t. A consolzed arcade board by some kid in his basement hadly represents an actual product from SNK shipped to video game distributers and advertised, marketed, and supported as a home video game console. If your definition of a video geme system being a home console is price then the 3DO was an arcade machine You see how silly that sounds? Hell the PS3 was expensive too. Your argument is flawed and doesn’t really make the case you want it too. Price has nothing to do with it.
    3DO isn't an Arcade machine, it is a PC.

    Just kidding, and that is a good point, but I was talking about the price of the games, not the hardware.
    Last edited by sheath; 05-05-2011 at 05:57 PM.

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    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    Uh - the VUs aren't 128 bit and weren't why some people called the EE 128-bit. The PS2 CPU is a MIPS 5900 with an instruction extension VERY similar to the x86's MMX extension; however, its "mmx" was 128 bit instead of 64 bit like the x86's. It was that 128-bit extension that made some (idiots) call the EE a 128 bit CPU.
    I meant it was comparable in terms of how the DC's vector unit isn't even part of the CPU . . . though the VUs not being 128-bit sort of makes that moot as well.







    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    3DO isn't an Arcade machine, it is a PC.

    Just kidding, and that is a good point, but I was talking about the price of the games, not the hardware.
    Yep, but it's a far better design for the mass market than the Neo Geo . . . or Neo Geo CD for that matter. (too much RAM for that to be feasible, especially with the stagnant early/mid-90s DRAM prices)

    I've already addressed my thoughts on the 3DO several times before . . . and did so again below. (probably control-F for 3DO to skip my other responses if you actually care to take a look)


    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    Apples to Oranges, but you're right it's not about the price. You can have "high-end" home consoles.
    Well... Price OF the console, the price of the games is relevant, well, relevant in the sense that it's due to the insane ROM size.
    The base hardware was rather impractical too, but the carts were the main issue by far. Not just the amount of ROM, but the use of expensive high-speed (for the time) ROM with several buses on huge PCBs with huge numbers of pins (mainly for the multiple buses).
    NEC used fast ROM too, but that was facilitated by in-house manufacturing and low-cost surface mounted glob-top chips on very compact PCBs. (the Lynx did both cheap, slow ROMs and surface mounted chips on small PCBs -no vertical integration though, so cheap ROMs to make up for that, if not go beyond it; the Lynx relied on loading code/data into fast DRAM to maintain good performance with slow ROM, like the Jaguar)

    Same ROM sizes on a MD or SNES cart would still be a lot cheaper at the time.










    Quote Originally Posted by Guntz View Post
    No they weren't The guys at SNK USA obviously knew how to market their system (outside actual design and pricing of the console and carts). Make your competitors look as bad as possible with some truth sprinkled in for good measure. That's how it always works in marketing.
    Except competitive advertising can also blow up in you face if you go too far or simply do it wrong. (same thing with political campaigns)
    You can have directly competitive advertising without being super negative (some of the Sega ads were pushing it, but few got to the point where it made them look like jerks -the Genesis Does ones didn't so much, but a handful of later ones got close to that . . . or just an odd comparison in the case of the Mario Kart Blast Processing ad).

    The trick is to not seem like you're mudslinging . . . like if Sega had taken a competitive ad campaign to counter the PS2's hype, but did so while maintaining an air of honesty or truth. (like doing back to back comparisons of real games and capabilities of the time rather than demos -especially multimedia demos on the PS2 rather than even realtime tech demos or game engine demos)

    Too much BS leaves you open to getting called out on the issue with major PR backlash . . . and even using largely truthful information can garner backlash if excessive negativity is used. (really heavy mudslinging can work for some people, but you'll always have others who get turned off by the idea -even if it's very close to straight-up truth- so there's always a balance of how to pull that off)

    Ignoring the competition entirely and focusing purely on positive hype for your own system is another route. (being better than the competition is implicit as such . . . sort of like with the PS2) It seem like most ad campaigns from the 6th gen onward have mostly focused on promotion of the product being sold and ignoring the competition. (or more implicit digs at the competition)

    That, and in some countries it's actually illegal to use direct competitive advertising that brings in the competition's product, especially with negative connotations. (that's definitely the case with Germany as came up in some previous discussions)

    It's not just the plastic that's cheap in the NEO-GEO. Lots of PCB components can die over time too (video RAM, clock crystal, sometimes the Z80 etc). It's both funny and sad at the same time. It makes the NES look like it has absolutely zero failure items at all and the pinnacle of reliability (to be fair though, only the pin connector in the NES ever goes bad frequently. The rest of the system is super well built).
    Interesting, I hadn't heard about that before.

    I wonder how MVS carts compare. (I haven't seen one in person yet. but they look to be more rugged in general -at least as far as the plastic casing goes)








    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    You see this is where the vagaries of what is home and arcade is completely grayed out.
    Not really. It's a home console yes, in a very raw technical sense, but it was NOT part of the same market as any other consoles at the time and was extremely niche.

    It didn't follow any practical limitations of the time . . . more so for the cost of games than the cost of the base hardware.

    It was not designed as a home console and, in fact, some other mid-range arcade board were BETTER suited to being converted into home consoles in terms of general cost to performance ratio.



    The point is that the Neo Geo should be compared to home consoles in the exact same way that arcade games of the time were.
    AES, MVS, it doesn't matter, it can be compared to home consoles, but with a HUGE amount of context also to be taken into account, just like with any arcade board of the time.

    You want to compare Neo Geo games to SNES, PCE, or Genesis games, fine, but don't pretend that it's any different from comparing System 18, CPS1, etc games. (there's greater contrast than comparing the older system 16, but less than the System 32 or Sega's scalar boards -especially the X and Y boards)

    It was indeed designed as a home console, quite well I might add.
    No, it was not, there's no evidence on the engineering end that it was designed expressly as such.

    The use of memory cards standard would imply that they had at least been thinking of the rental market at some point before the release of the system, but that doesn't mean it was even considered for the rental market when the arcade system was first being designed. (or that there was any other impact on the hardware design)

    Aside from the memory card slot in MVS cabinets, there's absolutely nothing about the Neo Geo that shows it ever being designed with the home market in mind.
    And, again, there's several other arcade boards (obviously with no intent in pushing into the home market) that are actually a good deal MORE practical for the home console market than the Neo.
    The CPS1 would be among those, though there are better examples (the System 16 definitely so, but in large part from being older). As mentioned before, the CPS WAS actually converted to a home console (in Neo-Geo-like raw arcade at home fashion) as well, totally after the fact but still the case. (and still more practical home console hardware than the Neo Geo, in part due to the cart design and ROM sizes, but more than that -heavier FM support and ADPCM channels with lower sample rates to generally make things more practical with smaller ROM sizes -the YM2610 has 1 variable sample rate ADPCM channel, but the other 6 are locked in at 18.5 kHz, too high of a bitrate to really be useful for early 90s games . . . and fixed rate also means they're only useful for sfx and some music -mainly percussion- sounds that are of fixed pitch -in spite of the lack of compression, the System 18's Ricoh PCM chip would lend far better to a home console at the time due to the flexible sample rates, number of channels and general utility for both SFX and music . . . plus dual YM2612s for a lot of FM synth to back that up )

    I remember seeing them on the shelves at Babadges (sp?) next to all the other consoles and I remember picking up a cart and seeing the $250 price tag it was so emasculating.
    This comes pretty close to winning the thread . . . emasculating

    IDk how the carts were impractical, it was just over the top.
    Umm, the extreme prices (or rather cost . . . it's not like they were making big margins on those carts compared to normal mass market consoles, they were just super expensive to produce) . . . totally infeasible for any realistic mass-market console.

    In terms of sheer size/bulk, there's a bit of inconvenience to consider too, but I was mainly speaking on the technical side of what's cost effective.
    Not just use of lots of ROM (way more than feasible for the mass market), not just lots of fast ROM, but lots of fast ROM on several independent buses with some extra logic/components onboard the cart (not enhancing performance -aside from cases of added RAM) requiring a huge number of pins on the connectors, huge dual PCBs with all those chips populating them all adding up to a huge composite cost. (take the same amount of ROM for a MD game and the cart would be far, far cheaper -slower, cheaper ROM, single bus, small PCB, etc)

    For that matter, if you really did what a high-end home console for the time, you'd make it RAM based with a good chunk of onboard DRAM to load into (be it from CD, floppy disk, or low-cost optimized ROM carts with heavy data compression).
    There would be added cost to the base system, but would be the only realistic way of doing that on the mass market at the time.
    Albeit that's only relative to using less RAM, not directly relative to contemporary consoles since you could have a very tightly engineered all-DRAM design with a unified bus (or as few buses as possible, with cost tradeoffs of more narrow buses vs shared wide buses- and efficient bus sharing). Actually, one good example would be an Amiga based console with 2 MB chipram and perhaps 128k fastRAM (to allow the CPU to say out of chipram), probably an added FM chip (YM2612 was probably the best option in terms of cost to performance and similarity to the arcade standard YM2151) to cater more to the arcade and allow more selective use of paula.

    However, if you really want to talk Neo-Geo oriented capabilities, you'd want something like Atari's Panther, but tweaked a bit to be buffered well enough to work in cheap DRAM and have less color limitations (the original Panther can only do 32 colors per scanline iirc). So in that sense, you'd basically want the Jaguar's object processor, but in 1990/91 rather than '93. (and actually, had Flare simply implemented the object processor -maybe the blitter, but not the GPU, Z buffer logic, MMU, JERRY or other complex things to the overall Jaguar design- it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a fully 2D Jaguar out by 1991 with simpler and/or off the shelf sound and I/O hardware)
    A 1991 Jaguar derivative (retaining mostly just the 2D hardware -extremely flexible and fast scaled sprites via the object processor, more conventional blitter based 2D and some rotation/texture effects if the blitter was also included) with 2 MB 64-bit DRAM would have been the ultimate 2D console at the time and smoke pretty much all 2D arcade boards (including the Neo Geo) as far as 2D rendering speed and flexibility went. (actually it probably would have smoked the PSX and Saturn in 2D as well . . . which the Jaguar itself is very capable of doing )

    I'm way off topic now, but if you wanted to know what a really efficient console for the time would be, there you go. (of course, it wouldn't have been nearly as cheap as Atari wanted -they wanted a $150 system and it probably would have been around $300 in 1991 if cart based- but that still would have been orders of magnitude more cost effective than the Neo Geo and generally more cost effective than contemporary home consoles in the long run -albeit, if they wanted a mass market price point, they'd have cut back to 512k DRAM and fallen short of the arcade-level category, but be far more marketable and still extremely cost effective)

    Mass market is a tough one to prove but it’s like saying Ferrari is mass market. Technically it is and if you have the means then you can have one.
    No, it's consumer market, true, thus accessible to anyone with the money (generally not barred by legal issues -though some consumer level cars are barred from import due to certain legal constraints requiring modification or restrictions to the design before it can be legally exported to certain countries), but not like millitary-specific vehicles as such.

    However, I didn't say consumer market, I said mass-market, not a specialty niche segment of the consumer market, but one with recognizable market share.

    IDK how you can argue quality and price as the deciding factor if it is a home console or not. It came packaged as a home console and worked as a home console and was supported in three major markets as a home console (U.S., Japan, UK). When I got my “Video Games” magazine every month in the mail it would list all the systems across the top, Genesis, 32X, CD-I, Neo-Geo, 3DO, SNES, NEC, and so on. It was absolutely designed, respected, and accepted in the home console market but obviously niche at best.
    Again, my argument was never about it technically being a home console accessible to the consumer market . . . it was about how it's not directly comparable to the mass market consoles of the time.

    Again, if you want to compare it to real mass market home console (or computer) games, do so in the same context of other arcade boards of the time and stop pretending it's any different.

    You see you can’t have it both ways. The CD hardware is almost identical to the original Neo Geo stuff
    Yes, but the changes to the format made it into a semi-practical mass market console. Even then it's more niche though due to the timing and the high price of the base unit.
    If they'd released a CD system back in 1991 with closer to 2 MB total RAM, then it probably could have taken off as a high-end mass market console (high end bracket, but accessible enough to make it realistic for a broad range of consumers, and released early enough to actually latch onto the market, unlike the Neo CD being both expensive and wiped out by 3D -not to mention arriving during the market slump in the US).
    More games would have had to be cut-back from the arcade versions, granted, but that's the nature of such a home console. (it could have been popular enough to garner general home console game support too with multiplatform games from contemporary consoles and computers; you know, like a real mass-market home console )

    It was a high end home market console; in fact it defines the genre.
    It's almost unique in that sense. Even the 3DO isn't comparable since it had affordable games and only had a super high price tag for about a year. (dropped from $699 to $599 to $499 by late 1994 and $399 in early 1995, then $299 by the time the PSX was released) Gaming PCs would have been pretty expensive too (especially if you didn't build you own machine tactfully/frugally), but were also far more practical due to the lower software costs (actually significantly lower than most console games even with the switch to CD, so the higher price could pay off from that standpoint -let alone the other uses for a PC . . . of course you didn't get really good quality cross-platform PC game support until the mid 90s).

    They were too, but you could not enter an arcade without seeing a Neo Geo. I being on the shore I have an abundance of arcades at my disposal, still Neo Geo’s to be found. It was their bread and butter. SNK did noth with their Neo Geo, so did Nintendo with their hardware. That is a direct correlation.
    Your point being??? You couldn't enter any decent arcade without seeing a Capcom or Sega machine either.

    With the right management, SNK probably could have broken into the real mass market console business, but that was never their intention. (the AES was just a bonus niche for their new arcade board)

    And if they did it would be a home console. Obviously they were looking for an affordable solution. You gotta remember SNK had the “Fuck You” mentality.
    WTF? Not sure about the "fuck you mentality", but if by "affordable solution" you mean they didn't have the resources to release a practical mass-market console (which potentially could have been derived from the Neo Geo hardware), that's just plain wrong.

    Again, with the right management, they probably could have pulled off a real mass market console. (they had a ton of exclusive arcade IP to work with too, let alone the obvious boost from 3rd party development)

    There is that impractical example again. How is two PCBs shoved into a cart impractical, maybe in your head, not mine or any other Neo fan. Again you are arguing quality. It was over the top.
    You don't seem to understand the argument from the engineering side of things. Such design is inefficient and impractical in the extreme as I already explained. Not cost effective at all. (then again, most arcade hardware isn't especially cost effective due to it not having to be . . . sort of like some high-end workstations, lots of non-dedicated/general purpose resource being squeezed out into very fixed purpose tasks -not the case with all workstations, mind you, but the case with many, especially the many oriented around raw CPU grunt)

    Less efficient in terms of pricing? Agreed, everything else doesn’t affect the fact that it is a home console.
    No, I'm not just talking mass market pricing, but actual cost to performance ratio and efficient hardware design/engineering.

    Maybe the awesome power of the Neo Geo is so humbling you do not know how to classify it anywhere but a pedestal; I agree in that respect
    Not really humbling at all. Achieving performance at extreme inefficiency of design and just throwing a lot of buses, fast memory, and tons of memory at it is hardly impressive from a hardware or software design standpoint.

    Now, an extremely tight design that manages comparable (or better) performance at far lower nominal cost (hardware and software) and games that pull it off with tight/efficient programming and optimized art/game design ARE far more impressive. (the Jaguar's hardware is really damn impressive in that respect, actually the Lynx is really impressive in that way as well -the Amiga is a pretty tight design for its time for that matter, or the Atari 8-bit chipset- though not all of those got the software support to back it up -the Jag certainly never got to properly show off its 2D prowess in most areas)

    Yes again with the BIOS crap.
    BIOS does next to nothing for the machines performance, you really need to understand this.

    To cut things short lets just talk about the first game, NAM or Magician Lord, pick one. The hardware dictated the the region settings, language, blood, bounce, Home or Arcade. My point is the game had it all in it, the very first one, ingenious one size fits all mentality designed simultaneously for the home market and the arcade.
    You talk of the "game" having it in it, but from the info I've seen, that's all on the hardware end.

    The System defines the region and the game detects it (just like the MD and I think the PCE and SNES do the same). It's up to the software to add in the necessary things for each region, nothing special compared to home consoles of the time. (there's a few commercial MD games that are multi-language . . . many more that use the region detection for lock-out due to that being desirable for the publishers -they want to keep track of what games are sold in what regions and how/when they are released, it's actually illegal to import games in some regions -I think that came up in the contex of the US market before)

    Now, Neo Geo games obviously could have used region detect to region lock the games as well (again, done by the games, not by the system), but the only thing SNK seemed to care about was preventing MVS carts from playing on the AES and vice versa. (incompatible pinout)

    Each and every game from the beginning of the Neo Geo life span to the very end. How is this not definitive proof of a home market in mind?
    WTF, how does it show they had the home market in mind at all?

    There's nothing in your above statements that point to thinking ahead for the home market. There's nothing whatsoever (aside from the memory card) that couldn't have been done after the fact. (that includes designing the AES to be software compatible with all MVS games to the extent that nothing needs to be tweaked or reprogrammed at all -though they COULD opt to tweak things in any case)
    Opting to make AES carts incompatible with MVS carts could also be decided after the fact.

    Of course, they'd still need separate manufacturing for all AES and MVS games due to the hardware incompatibility. (ie pinout differences)

    SNK designed the system this way to prevent arcade owners from purchased the then much cheaper home carts. I have the converter from !ARCADE!, it has made life much more bearable to live.
    It wouldn't have been hard to get around either way. (3rd party adapters on the gray market for arcade operators to use AES carts)
    If SNK really cared about blocking use in the arcade, they'd have needed to take a more comprehensive approach and make things software incompatible with some tweaks to prevent games from booting on the system. (more so if it wasn't something that could be addressed by replacing the BIOS . . . that could include actual lockout chip hardware on-cart that would prevent AES games from booting on an MVS)

    The Hardware tells the cart which settings to use.
    Exactly like the MD (and I think PCE/SNES), it's up to the games to use it as desired. (be it a special multi-region game or regional lock-out)

    Stating opinion here, not fact. It was a Giant cart; they did it on purpose, bigger, badder, better. OMGLOLZZ11!11!1 look at the size of that cart. I got hard looking at it back in the day. I still get a chubby when I walk by my carts at home.
    Umm, yeah, the market share figures totally don't back up my argument.

    The machine was niche, not even in the same market as the MD or SNES, it was not remotely mass market (the CD was specialty and barely mass market at that, but more arguable at least).

    Anyway, you can love you Neo Geo (and the stupid marketing) all you want, but just don't pretend it's any more comparable to home consoles than any other arcade boards of the time.

    The system was designed masterfully. Simple, effective, very sleek.
    Not simple, not cost effective, and hardly sleek.
    I already addressed the technical issues both from the system and cart design side of things, so I'm not going to repeat myself.

    It absolutely competed. Its only downfall was the price.
    Nope, the price (especially for the games) let alone the fact it lacked tons of multi-platform hits of the time (and had an extremely narrow software genre selection on the whole) made it not even part of the same market as the SNES and MD or PCE for that matter.
    Home computers (including PCs) were more in the same market than the Neo Geo. (actually they were totally in the same market in Europe, at least until the mid 90s -PCs weren't really big there at all, so it was mainly other home computer platforms)

    Same deal with the 3DO.
    Totally different deal with the 3DO from an engineering/hardware design standpoint, cost to performance ratio, software production/licensing model, hardware production model, and general business model.
    The 3DO wasn't ideal in terms of overall cost to performance (not amazingly tight, rather conservative from an engineering standpoint, really), but on the whole it was probably good enough in terms of hardware catering to the market at the time. (from feature set to general cost of manufacturing to programmability, etc)

    It got pretty good marketing and decent software support for the time as well.

    The problems pretty much all stemmed from the experimental business model which proved to be a spectacular failure in the end, though Sony's massive competition certainly didn't help. (there might have been a chance for the business model to work with an extremely tight, cost-effective design and more standardized -but still totally outsourced- manufacturing, something in the Jaguar or perhaps N64 chips range of a tight, highly cost-effective design -albeit without the management problems plaguing the Jaguar and thus allowing more steady resources to address the major bugs, have a less extreme low-cost configuration -same low-cost design, but things like a more powerful CPU with a cache would make a huge difference- plus the marketing and software support -including dev tools- that the 3DO had but even better with both high and low level tools . . . except even then such a product would be far more successful with a razor and blade business model rather than what 3DO pushed)

    With the exact same hardware, had 3DO taken the traditional razor and blade market approach (let alone taken it further with selling at a loss like Sony) and partnered exclusively with Panasonic to facilitate such, they probably could have turned into a major player on the mass market and might still be there today. (standardized, tight manufacturing also would have facilitated support of detailed low-level documentation and tools to allow developers to tweak software for optimal performance, program at low level for high performance in general, or develop custom high-level tools specific to their needs)
    Hell, with a pure razor and blade market, they could have invested more in successive cost reductions to hardware (a ton of consolidation possible with that initial 1 micron chipset). Though one relatively simple change that really would have made the difference in the long-run is if they could have switched to a CPU with a cache to allow more overall CPU resource and far better bus sharing and less issues from contention. (you could argue even a 25 MHz 68EC020 would actually be preferable to the 12.5 MHz ARM60 due to the cache -apples to apples performance in zero wait state RAM would favor the ARM by far, but with the page breaks in DRAM and bus contention forcing wait states far more, the '020 would generally be far more useful -probably not a major cost difference either, same footprint too with 100 pin QFP form factor)


    The Neo Geo never could have been that, not without drastic changes to the base unit or at least to the carts and games. (the 3DO would have been better off with a tighter, more efficient hardware design too -or even a moderately tweaked one, but that wasn't the main thing holding them back)


    As you know, demand dictates what the market does. There was a Demand for a Neo Geo Home console, it was made day one. Again the very first game has console settings in it, designed right away for the home market.
    Very, very limited demand and something that could never have been self sustaining. (they needed the hardware/software in the arcade to make it remotely feasible)

    I think you mean SNK?
    Yes.

    Any tweaks would result in an inferior product. SNK doesn’t do that.
    No, it would result in a much better, more marketable product with real potential for mass market success.

    Come on man, the 16Bit wars were the coolest thing.
    On the software/competition end, yes. The only thing that could have made it cooler is if NEC had become a realistic competitor (but no go so far as to saturate the market with corporate clout like Sony later did, enough to allow more open competition), and even have Atari Corp launch a 4th gen console with good management to back it up. (1989 was their best position to push that, everything after was down hill for them in terms of management and funding . . . would have been really cool if Mike Katz came back to Atari after leaving Sega in early 1991; he was probably the best Atari Corp's entertainment division ever saw . . . it was still down to Sam Tramiel to get his act together though, better funding with more marketable products always makes management more foolproof though -with the exception of extremely rapid growth that ends up leading to instability if you don't have really tight management to back that up)
    Last edited by kool kitty89; 05-05-2011 at 07:33 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

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    Shining Hero Joe Redifer's Avatar
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    I'm late jumping in here, but the PS3 is 32-bit, but the N64 was 64-bit? No wonder N64 games look so much better than PS3 games!

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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    It's the games that make it not a proper console, or at least not the same thing as Genesis, SNES, etc. It is a console without a single console game. Every game was made to run on quarters in arcades.
    Or to be played on it's authentic home system with a home cart and continues vs credits.

    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    Interesting, I hadn't heard about that before.

    I wonder how MVS carts compare. (I haven't seen one in person yet. but they look to be more rugged in general -at least as far as the plastic casing goes)
    AES carts have a lil wobble to them, ever so slight as there are two pcbs in them. If you pick them up and shake them you can notice this. AS far as them failing I have never had one fail on me. The MVS carts are more stout and extremely ugly, I love them too.

    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    Not really. It's a home console yes, in a very raw technical sense, but it was NOT part of the same market as any other consoles at the time and was extremely niche.

    It didn't follow any practical limitations of the time . . . more so for the cost of games than the cost of the base hardware.

    It was not designed as a home console and, in fact, some other mid-range arcade board were BETTER suited to being converted into home consoles in terms of general cost to performance ratio.
    It is part of the market. You can buy a ZR1 Corvette that is 100K+ right next to a 15K Cobalt. The market is what the market bares. SNK never di anything on the cheap and they made a great home system and it was supported much like the MD and SNES. Every game was designed for the home and arcade. Every other system ported arcade titles at the time and if they could do a perfect translation they would. For those that demanded perfect you got the Neo Geo.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    No, it was not, there's no evidence on the engineering end that it was designed expressly as such.
    The evidence is in every game made for the system. I can still to this day send my Neo Geo back to SNK and they will refurbish it or repair it, try that with you MD/SNES. It’s a hybrid system, it does everything the market asked it to do.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    Aside from the memory card slot in MVS cabinets, there's absolutely nothing about the Neo Geo that shows it ever being designed with the home market in mind
    Besides the home console and all the home games specifically designed for it you are correct
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    Umm, the extreme prices (or rather cost . . . it's not like they were making big margins on those carts compared to normal mass market consoles, they were just super expensive to produce) . . . totally infeasible for any realistic mass-market console.
    You can’t argue prices it is all relative. I work with some families pulling in 50K a month. Price has nothing to do with the definition of a console. The system lasted from 1990 to the last game in 2004 and they still service the system, 14 years man come on.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    For that matter, if you really did what a high-end home console for the time, you'd make it RAM based with a good chunk of onboard DRAM to load into (be it from CD, floppy disk, or low-cost optimized ROM carts with heavy data compression).
    There would be added cost to the base system, but would be the only realistic way of doing that on the mass market at the time.
    Albeit that's only relative to using less RAM, not directly relative to contemporary consoles since you could have a very tightly engineered all-DRAM design with a unified bus (or as few buses as possible, with cost tradeoffs of more narrow buses vs shared wide buses- and efficient bus sharing). Actually, one good example would be an Amiga based console with 2 MB chipram and perhaps 128k fastRAM (to allow the CPU to say out of chipram), probably an added FM chip (YM2612 was probably the best option in terms of cost to performance and similarity to the arcade standard YM2151) to cater more to the arcade and allow more selective use of paula.

    However, if you really want to talk Neo-Geo oriented capabilities, you'd want something like Atari's Panther, but tweaked a bit to be buffered well enough to work in cheap DRAM and have less color limitations (the original Panther can only do 32 colors per scanline iirc). So in that sense, you'd basically want the Jaguar's object processor, but in 1990/91 rather than '93. (and actually, had Flare simply implemented the object processor -maybe the blitter, but not the GPU, Z buffer logic, MMU, JERRY or other complex things to the overall Jaguar design- it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a fully 2D Jaguar out by 1991 with simpler and/or off the shelf sound and I/O hardware)
    A 1991 Jaguar derivative (retaining mostly just the 2D hardware -extremely flexible and fast scaled sprites via the object processor, more conventional blitter based 2D and some rotation/texture effects if the blitter was also included) with 2 MB 64-bit DRAM would have been the ultimate 2D console at the time and smoke pretty much all 2D arcade boards (including the Neo Geo) as far as 2D rendering speed and flexibility went. (actually it probably would have smoked the PSX and Saturn in 2D as well . . . which the Jaguar itself is very capable of doing )

    I'm way off topic now, but if you wanted to know what a really efficient console for the time would be, there you go. (of course, it wouldn't have been nearly as cheap as Atari wanted -they wanted a $150 system and it probably would have been around $300 in 1991 if cart based- but that still would have been orders of magnitude more cost effective than the Neo Geo and generally more cost effective than contemporary home consoles in the long run -albeit, if they wanted a mass market price point, they'd have cut back to 512k DRAM and fallen short of the arcade-level category, but be far more marketable and still extremely cost effective)
    Hindsight is 20-20. The Neo did just fine as a home console. I agree a proper CD system woulda made life much better. Falling short however was not an option, SNK would not cheapen their product and it worked out fine for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    However, I didn't say consumer market, I said mass-market, not a specialty niche segment of the consumer market, but one with recognizable market share
    The system was sitting on shelves right next to the MD/SNES, how is that not access to the mass market?
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    Again, my argument was never about it technically being a home console accessible to the consumer market . . . it was about how it's not directly comparable to the mass market consoles of the time.

    Again, if you want to compare it to real mass market home console (or computer) games, do so in the same context of other arcade boards of the time and stop pretending it's any different.
    Hey man, everyone and their mother compared all systems to all systems. The Neo compared well in the arcades too but think about how many games were for that system? You could argue it being a home console simply based on the amount of games the thing had, how many other arcade boards had that many games for it?
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    Yes, but the changes to the format made it into a semi-practical mass market console. Even then it's more niche though due to the timing and the high price of the base unit.
    If they'd released a CD system back in 1991 with closer to 2 MB total RAM, then it probably could have taken off as a high-end mass market console (high end bracket, but accessible enough to make it realistic for a broad range of consumers, and released early enough to actually latch onto the market, unlike the Neo CD being both expensive and wiped out by 3D -not to mention arriving during the market slump in the US).
    More games would have had to be cut-back from the arcade versions, granted, but that's the nature of such a home console. (it could have been popular enough to garner general home console game support too with multiplatform games from contemporary consoles and computers; you know, like a real mass-market home console )
    Why do you have to cut the balls off of a system to make it compete? I can’t imagine what a 2MB Neo Geo game would look like, it wouldn’t sell that’s for sure. It’ll be like a V6 Ferrari, no one would buy one.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    WTF? Not sure about the "fuck you mentality", but if by "affordable solution" you mean they didn't have the resources to release a practical mass-market console (which potentially could have been derived from the Neo Geo hardware), that's just plain wrong.

    Again, with the right management, they probably could have pulled off a real mass market console. (they had a ton of exclusive arcade IP to work with too, let alone the obvious boost from 3rd party development)
    I am saying SNK would never release an inferior product. They gave their best every time.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    You don't seem to understand the argument from the engineering side of things. Such design is inefficient and impractical in the extreme as I already explained. Not cost effective at all. (then again, most arcade hardware isn't especially cost effective due to it not having to be . . . sort of like some high-end workstations, lots of non-dedicated/general purpose resource being squeezed out into very fixed purpose tasks -not the case with all workstations, mind you, but the case with many, especially the many oriented around raw CPU grunt)
    You don’t seem to understand form a marketing stand point, bigger better, badder, more bits look at the fucking size of my mother fucking carts. Programmers were purposely sloppy in programming so the meg size was larger. It got EVERYONES attention, no attention, no sales. Quality=$$$$$$$$$$$. Fuck you can spend 100K on a Veyron Tire change according to Leno. Your argument keeps coming back to money and it is wrong.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    Not really humbling at all. Achieving performance at extreme inefficiency of design and just throwing a lot of buses, fast memory, and tons of memory at it is hardly impressive from a hardware or software design standpoint.
    In 1990 it seemed like a pretty good idea, you see what the system could pull off in 2D gaming. Extremely versatile system. The PS1 and Saturn struggled to run their games and the N64 didn’t even try. I don’t think you give it enough credit and you’re interjecting more opinion on the system vs what it did and when it did it. You are completely dismissing its impact. The Jaguar was impressive? On paper maybe, it did shit otherwise. I am interested in what actually happened, not what’s on paper.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    BIOS does next to nothing for the machines performance, you really need to understand this.
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    You talk of the "game" having it in it, but from the info I've seen, that's all on the hardware end.
    Yeah you’d be wrong. It OK it happens.
    As far as proof of the home console market in mind there is undeniable proof, they made a home console (2 actually and if you want to get picky you can argue 5 HOMES SYSTEMS) and support of them so any other argument is silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    Not simple, not cost effective, and hardly sleek.
    I already addressed the technical issues both from the system and cart design side of things, so I'm not going to repeat myself.
    Nope, the price (especially for the games) let alone the fact it lacked tons of multi-platform hits of the time (and had an extremely narrow software genre selection on the whole) made it not even part of the same market as the SNES and MD or PCE for that matter.
    Home computers (including PCs) were more in the same market than the Neo Geo. (actually they were totally in the same market in Europe, at least until the mid 90s -PCs weren't really big there at all, so it was mainly other home computer platforms)
    Very, very limited demand and something that could never have been self sustaining. (they needed the hardware/software in the arcade to make it remotely feasible)
    Are you fucking serious, the thing is practically aerodynamic. It’s a big system but not like the monsters of the 3DO or the XBOX hell a MD1 and a Mega CD was fucking huge. Lacked hits? KOF, Samurai Shodown, Art of Fighting, Puzzle Bobble, fucking PUZZLE BOBBLE, how many more am I missing? All the system did was pump out hits. Each and every game listed was ported over to lesser consoles. The demand wasn’t that limited, again 14 years of selling man that cannot be dismissed. You spend a lot of time looking back at the market and how it should have been. I focus on what happened.
    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89
    On the software/competition end, yes. The only thing that could have made it cooler is if NEC had become a realistic competitor (but no go so far as to saturate the market with corporate clout like Sony later did, enough to allow more open competition), and even have Atari Corp launch a 4th gen console with good management to back it up. (1989 was their best position to push that, everything after was down hill for them in terms of management and funding . . . would have been really cool if Mike Katz came back to Atari after leaving Sega in early 1991; he was probably the best Atari Corp's entertainment division ever saw . . . it was still down to Sam Tramiel to get his act together though, better funding with more marketable products always makes management more foolproof though -with the exception of extremely rapid growth that ends up leading to instability if you don't have really tight management to back that up)
    The TG16 couldn’t have competed, it was only 8BIT…………….

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    Raging in the Streets Thunderblaze16's Avatar
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    Shut up........ lol jking, but seriously people where are we going with this? the mega drive beats the Tb16 The End
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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pro21xx View Post
    Shut up........ lol jking, but seriously people where are we going with this? the mega drive beats the Tb16 The End
    That's what I have been trying to say all along but no one listens to me.

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    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Shut up........ lol jking, but seriously people where are we going with this? the mega drive beats the Tb16 The End
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    That's what I have been trying to say all along but no one listens to me.

    That is what was said from the first post through to your first post in the thread.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joe Redifer View Post
    I'm late jumping in here, but the PS3 is 32-bit, but the N64 was 64-bit? No wonder N64 games look so much better than PS3 games!
    No, the PS2, PS3 and 360 are 64-bit, Wii, GC, DC, and Xbox are 32-bit, N64 is 64-bit. (all going by common convention of CPU architecture . . . though the way the N64 R4300 is used most of the time, it might as well be 32-bit as well, like the R3900)

    The R4300 is 64-bit internal (including 64-bit addressing modes and a 64-bit ALU iirc) with a 32-bit external bus. So in that sense, it's as 64-bit as a 386SX is 32-bit or 65816, 68008, or 8088 is 16-bit. (and NOT the same way the 68000 is 32-bit internal and 16-bit external since it's limited to a 16-bit ALU as well as a 16-bit external bus . . . but it does have a fully 32-bit register set, has 32-bit instructions, can perform 32-bit operations, has flat 32-bit address bus -only 24 lines connected on normal 68000s- so it is partially 32-bit and facilitated extension to full 32-bit with the 68020)

    Of course, that bitness still doesn't define power/capability, that's the whole point of the "bit wars" being so ridiculous.

    Oh, and the jaguar . . . the Jaguar has a 64-bit data bus, 2 32-bit custom RISC processors (optimized as a GPU and used as such in the GPU in TOM with some very slight tweaks to the "DSP" in JERRY -not a GPU in the sense of the PSX, that's more of a blitter -and the closest thing to the PSX GPU in the Jaguar IS the blitter- but a "real" GPU more like modern graphics cards have -closest thing on the mass market at the time was the TMS340 series of graphics processors).

    The 68000 is the only true general purpose CPU in the system, 16-bit per common convention (or 16/32-bit), so in that sense the Jaguar is a 16-bit system. (except the GPU really IS a general purpose microprocessor capable of most/all CPU tasks much faster than the 68000 . . . and Midway actually used a TMS340 as the main CPU in some of their arcade boards)
    So it's pretty safe to say that the Jaguar could be considered a 32-bit system as far as convention goes. (graphics bus width or graphics chip word size operation generally isn't valid for defining a system, neither is CPU bus width, or the max word size the CPU is capable of processing -Jag RISC can handlea few 64-bit data operations, mainly block move -but the blitter is better at that so it's rarely used anyway)

    That common convention comes from PC/home computers, of course.
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

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