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Thread: Comparison of 5th generation ("32/64-bit") game console hardware

  1. #961
    Raging in the Streets Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    However, I think it's not a problem since my point was about the lack of shadows and transparencies in the Saturn version, not frame rate.
    I know- but that's always the case with Saturn 3D games

    It's a great feature from a guy which has made lots of old FPS longplay videos using real hardware
    I own a PS, PS2, PS3 and Saturn - all real hardware .

    The thing is that, unlike you, his point is not hype one console or another. He was just analyzing how faithful to the original game each version was in terms of graphics and content, and I think he did a good job in such aspect
    No he was a little bit quick to point out the Saturn short comings and not so quick to point out the PS shorts comings imo . I mean he makes a big deal of the lack of doors in the Saturn version , but nothing about the missing glass in the PS version or Multi player mode. I admit the PS was far better for 3D graphics and effects, but Duke Nukem is one of the few exceptions, where the Saturn version is the better and more impressive version imo .

    2) Mortal Kombat
    Well I guess were can all bring out the odd shit bit of programming to try and prove a point . I'm pretty sure Prope even came out and said sorry in the press, for that port and where even the Beta version of the game played and looked better than the final version. They'll always be cases of games coming up short - but most of the major 2D games on the Saturn had no issues with transparent effects including very early titles like Astal and Shinobi

    7) Street Fighter Zero 3
    Huh That was being Arcade faithful - I think one mag even scored down the Saturn version of Zero for it's faithful shadows which was madness

    There are other 5-6 examples showing the same thing: transparencies in 2D weren't common in the Saturn versions (heck, the SNES had them in the MK games and the Saturn didn't), but feel free to find endless excuses
    Hey I'm the one that's pointing out the Saturn short comings , but they'll always be the odd title that can be used to suite us argument . Most people like to say the Saturn was better at 2D but its version of In The Hunt is shocking compared to the PS versions, does than mean the PS was better at 2D . Most here love the Mega Drive and always go on about it's better and faster CPU compared to the Snes, yet the Snes Version of Smash TV is way more impressive with more sprites and less slowdown - did mean the Snes was better at handling more sprites ?
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  2. #962
    Road Rasher
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    Some info on 3DO, in case some are interested:

    First, the patents:

    http://www.google.com/patents/WO1994010641A1

    http://www.google.com/patents/WO1994010642A1

    http://www.google.com/patents/WO1994010643A1

    http://www.google.com/patents/WO1994010644A1

    http://www.google.com/patents/WO1994010677A1

    Note how 1994010643 specifies the desired CPU as an ARM610 (the one with the cache), while the rest specify ARM60. Also note how that patent also has the statement that "for the purposes of the design, the CPU is immaterial". Well, apparently it really wasn't.

    Also, some discussion between two 3DO vets on another forum:

    http://www.3do.cdinteractive.co.uk/v...php?f=2&t=2206

  3. #963
    Road Rasher Bibin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    The dithered overlays in Street Fighter Zero 3 are how they looked like in the arcade too!

    Vampire Savior is noteworthy by the way. You can choose between S-Video and RGB output in a hidden menu. S-video uses normal dithered stuff. RGB also uses dithered patterns, but it switches which pixels are dithered every other frame!
    Zero 3 has this option as well. Non-RGB mode simply chooses to not alternate the dither pattern, which is what the arcade did.

    Running in RGB mode through RGB, by the way, this is what Zero 3 Saturn is like, and it is arcade perfect (except for 16px cut off each side):



  4. #964
    Hero of Algol
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    The level after that also has a wavy fog missing on the Playstation. Now that I think of it, is that even possible with polygons?
    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    Are you really implying that the PS1 can't pull off a simple wavy effect?
    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    No, I'm just not sure how'd you replicate a line scroll effect with polygons. You can't exactly tell each polygon to move line x of the display 1 pixel to the left and repeat.
    Well, here's the PS1 doing wavy effects:
    http://youtu.be/KCjQ6mNbhcA?t=7m44s
    http://youtu.be/KCjQ6mNbhcA?t=20m58s

    Here's a similar visual effect using some other tricks:
    http://youtu.be/PXQSL9mldas?t=4s
    http://youtu.be/Av9Cqecbb8g?t=5s

    And here's it in a game with 3D graphics:
    http://youtu.be/twwMd30gKEM?t=5m43s
    Last edited by Barone; 12-27-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  5. #965
    Master of Shinobi
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    Okay, so it can do it, still: how? Does it go the brute force way and moves each line as a separate poly? Is it using horizontal interrupts to move certain polygons left or right dynamically? The thing in Einhander looks really nice, I'm just wondering how exactly does it do that.

  6. #966
    Hero of Algol
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Okay, so it can do it, still: how? Does it go the brute force way and moves each line as a separate poly? Is it using horizontal interrupts to move certain polygons left or right dynamically? The thing in Einhander looks really nice, I'm just wondering how exactly does it do that.
    IDK... Are you/we sure that the PS1 doesn't have any native 2D capabilities for stuff like line scrolling?

    Another example here:
    http://youtu.be/WI8p8czQUMk?t=5m15s

  7. #967
    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    The PS1 doesn't have linescrolling, per se, but you can send a command that sets where the display is for scrolling in a larger bitmap. If I had to guess, when you have smaller wavy sections on a larger display, two-pass rendering is used. The first draws the section, then a second pass is made to offset the lines as it copies the section into the bitmap at the correct place.

  8. #968
    Hero of Algol
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    Thanks, Chilly.


    More on the "wavy" subject...

    Earthwrom Jim 2

    MD (26:58 | 28:42)





    SNES (27:38 | 30:48)





    SAT (04:58 | 06:19)





    PS1 (00:20 | 02:50)




    Looks like the SNES version added the wavy effect in the first segment, the Saturn version added an extra layer and the PS1 version just failed to replicate the wavy effect properly while also lacks the extra layer of the Saturn one.



    And I also found this:
    Hydro Thunder

    Arcade (00:23)





    PC (it's NOT the Midway Arcade Treasures Deluxe version, it's a proper PC port released in 2001 in Europe) (04:45)





    PS1 (06:27)





    N64 (00:05)





    DC (01:12)





    GC (Midway Arcade Treasures 3 - supposedly a DC port) (00:19)





    The wavy effect on the reflection in the water, which was in the original arcade version, is missing on the DC and all ports related to that (N64 port seems to be an downgraded version of it).

    I usually see a lot of hype about the N64 version but it's downgraded in many aspects, even when compared just to the PS1's.
    Besides that wavy effect (which appears in many other parts of the game), it's lacking a lot of track details like the volcano's smoke in Lost Island (and also the foliage inside the caves), its spray effect looks worse IMO, the water animation is poorer and the level of detail reduces drastically quick (during ramp jumps, for an example, the water usually loses all the details to the point of showing just a solid color all the way) and the game runs noticeably slower. And all of that is with the expansion pack on.
    Most of those details were present in the DC version but the game still seems to be scrolling/running slower than normal.


    This video gives an idea about the speed difference between the PS1 and N64 versions (and the PS1's is already slower than the arcade one):

    Last edited by Barone; 03-04-2014 at 03:26 PM.

  9. #969
    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    The Genesis and Saturn have some really good 2D scrolling support built into the hardware. Simulating that on other platforms that DON'T have that can be difficult, especially if you want to keep the speed up. Depending on the developer and the amount of money they expect from a port of a game, they may not even bother. It's not the first time we've seen the least effort put into a port from one platform to another.

  10. #970

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    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    The PS1 doesn't have linescrolling, per se, but you can send a command that sets where the display is for scrolling in a larger bitmap. If I had to guess, when you have smaller wavy sections on a larger display, two-pass rendering is used. The first draws the section, then a second pass is made to offset the lines as it copies the section into the bitmap at the correct place.
    I would have done it differently. For a full-screen you could have a couple of options. The first would just to add a bunch of quads to the drawlist with UV's based on a sine wav. The second would have been the textured horizontal line primitive - I used this to write a very simple span-buffered renderer on PS1 to minimise texture distortion (it got rid of it completely) and to allow for near perfect z-sorting. You could have done per-line waving using that primitive type with UV scrolling.

  11. #971
    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by rusty View Post
    I would have done it differently. For a full-screen you could have a couple of options. The first would just to add a bunch of quads to the drawlist with UV's based on a sine wav. The second would have been the textured horizontal line primitive - I used this to write a very simple span-buffered renderer on PS1 to minimise texture distortion (it got rid of it completely) and to allow for near perfect z-sorting. You could have done per-line waving using that primitive type with UV scrolling.
    Yes, there are a number of ways to simulate that wavy effect on 3D systems. If a game lacked that on the PS1, it's just a sloppy conversion.

  12. #972
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    Quote Originally Posted by Barone View Post
    60 fps and real-time shadow casting in real hardware
    Real hardware YT capped video:
    It's 30 fps you damn idiot.
    Internet sources, geez...

  13. #973
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    I assume the absence of N64 homebrew, is because the thing isn't fun to program for.

    Because only 12-64 MB ROMS + Everdrive 64 = hella fast progress.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  14. #974
    Master of Shinobi
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    Quote Originally Posted by azonicrider View Post
    I assume the absence of N64 homebrew, is because the thing isn't fun to program for.

    Because only 12-64 MB ROMS + Everdrive 64 = hella fast progress.
    Probably also the fact that emulators are near useless, so you wouldn't have many ways to get your code running right.

  15. #975
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by zyrobs View Post
    Probably also the fact that emulators are near useless, so you wouldn't have many ways to get your code running right.
    Are you talking about emulators in general or just N64 ones? Yes I've noticed the N64 emulators are sub-par compared to PS1 and Dreamcast ones
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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