Comparison of 5th generation ("32/64-bit") game console hardware

[sheath]

I have been trying to tempt WM team to use the 32X if it is present for some effects in Project Y. Fonzie came in and stated:

Unfortunately none of the above effects can be done with 32x. It do not allow transparencies over megadrive display.

AND the game would need to be entierely programmed with 32x in mind (when 32x is enabled, lot of bad things happens), means more limitations.

AND, the 32x is too slow to keep with 60fps unless it shows 3 pixels or utter flat background. So it would likely slowdown the game to 30fps.

I'm not sure what the 3 pixel thing means for one, is he talking about color depth? Also I recall us discussing how the 32X's priority was on a per pixel basis, but can only find a discussion from 2009 that ended that it can't put its layers in between Layers A, B and the Sprite layer of the Genesis. I thought our most recent discussion said that the 32X could display its layers in a more flexible way than just under or over all Genesis graphics. I really wish the forum's search function actually worked.

[TmEE]

32X can only put its GFX over ALL or under ALL of MD GFX, there is no inbetween going to happen.

32X radically changes memory map when enabled, which complicates everything.

[sheath]

32X can only put its GFX over ALL or under ALL of MD GFX, there is no inbetween going to happen.

32X radically changes memory map when enabled, which complicates everything.

I was wondering about that too, why would the 32X layer force everything to be 30FPS? I think Knuckles Chaotix, Tempo, Kolibri and Spiderman Web of Fire are 60FPS. I'm going to check that real quick.

-edit-

Yup, Kolibri, Knuckles Chaotix, Tempo and Spiderman Web of Fire are 60FPS scrolling and sprite object movement. So is Mortal Kombat II except for the slowdown.

[Thenewguy]

BTW, you know how Koolkitty (where'd he go?) always used to talk about Mortal Kombat II, and the way they chose to use the 32X layer for the sprites but he said the background would've been better?

I was thinking, on a stage with three layers of parallax wouldn't this mean the 32X would only be doing the far background? because that could be quite inconsistent looking from one stage to the next (some stages might only have, like a moon in the far background for example, whilst others with no parallax might only have one background all done by 32X)

[TmEE]

32X just is not fast enough to do full screen full speed rendering unless its extremely optimized

[sheath]

BTW, you know how Koolkitty (where'd he go?) always used to talk about Mortal Kombat II, and the way they chose to use the 32X layer for the sprites but he said the background would've been better?

I was thinking, on a stage with three layers of parallax wouldn't this mean the 32X would only be doing the far background? because that could be quite inconsistent looking from one stage to the next (some stages might only have, like a moon in the far background for example, whilst others with no parallax might only have one background all done by 32X)

If I'm not mistaken, and I'm sure somebody will tell me instantly if I am, the 32X can display its graphics over or under the Genesis graphics. It has a per pixel priority for where the 32X's images are placed. The biggest catch I have found so far is that it cannot put graphics between the Genesis' two background layers, which can also assign layer priorities in 8x8 pixel rows or lines, or the sprite layer. So the Genesis graphics come into the 32X as one layer that the add-on can then overlay or underlay graphics with.

So, if I understand it correctly, the moon in one background and the sprites could be handled by the 32X. The 32X could handle large high color foreground and far background graphics along with sprites while the Genesis handled the middle layers of parallax. Some variation of this is how the system was designed. When tech folks say that the system is too slow for full screen rendering, they mean that it cannot fill the entire screen with pixels at 60FPS without the Genesis layers filling some of it.

[Chilly Willy]

If I'm not mistaken, and I'm sure somebody will tell me instantly if I am, the 32X can display its graphics over or under the Genesis graphics. It has a per pixel priority for where the 32X's images are placed. The biggest catch I have found so far is that it cannot put graphics between the Genesis' two background layers, which can also assign layer priorities in 8x8 pixel rows or lines, or the sprite layer. So the Genesis graphics come into the 32X as one layer that the add-on can then overlay or underlay graphics with.

So, if I understand it correctly, the moon in one background and the sprites could be handled by the 32X. The 32X could handle large high color foreground and far background graphics along with sprites while the Genesis handled the middle layers of parallax. Some variation of this is how the system was designed. When tech folks say that the system is too slow for full screen rendering, they mean that it cannot fill the entire screen with pixels at 60FPS without the Genesis layers filling some of it.

You have all that correct, but you CAN fill the ENTIRE 32X display at better than 60 FPS. However, that's about all you could do at that frame rate is fill the screen once. So you could do one layer, or sprites, but trying to do more layers or layers and sprites means you cannot redraw the whole display each time. But that would be silly for such a game in any case. What you want to do is take advantage of scrolling and only redraw the new sections of a layer that appear. If you did that, you could do one layer (with parallax sections) as well as sprites at 60 FPS. Doing two completely independent layers requires more work that you can probably do in one frame, so I don't see doing two layers at 60FPS without making restrictions, like having two layers only over part of the screen.

[sheath]

You have all that correct, but you CAN fill the ENTIRE 32X display at better than 60 FPS. However, that's about all you could do at that frame rate is fill the screen once. So you could do one layer, or sprites, but trying to do more layers or layers and sprites means you cannot redraw the whole display each time. But that would be silly for such a game in any case. What you want to do is take advantage of scrolling and only redraw the new sections of a layer that appear. If you did that, you could do one layer (with parallax sections) as well as sprites at 60 FPS. Doing two completely independent layers requires more work that you can probably do in one frame, so I don't see doing two layers at 60FPS without making restrictions, like having two layers only over part of the screen.

I think the context of this discussion is the option of a Genesis game also detecting and making use of the 32X. Would such a scheme overly complicate adding 32X overlay graphics?

[Chilly Willy]

I think the context of this discussion is the option of a Genesis game also detecting and making use of the 32X. Would such a scheme overly complicate adding 32X overlay graphics?

It shouldn't. You'd have to make sure you planned ahead for what to do in case it is or is not detected. For example, if it is detected, maybe you switch from a low color background to a high color background. Or maybe you switch to 32X doing (some or all of) the sprites. Depending on how big the game is, perhaps you just have two games in one rom. It's all in the hands of the programmer as to how much or how little the 32X would get used. Perhaps some games would add optional special levels based on whether there was a 32X (normal levels full MD, special levels fully 32X... that sort of thing).

I fully expected some devs would do dual Genesis/32X games in the second generation of 32X games... but we never got them.

[sheath]

It shouldn't. You'd have to make sure you planned ahead for what to do in case it is or is not detected. For example, if it is detected, maybe you switch from a low color background to a high color background. Or maybe you switch to 32X doing (some or all of) the sprites. Depending on how big the game is, perhaps you just have two games in one rom. It's all in the hands of the programmer as to how much or how little the 32X would get used. Perhaps some games would add optional special levels based on whether there was a 32X (normal levels full MD, special levels fully 32X... that sort of thing).

I fully expected some devs would do dual Genesis/32X games in the second generation of 32X games... but we never got them.

Okay, that runs contrary to what Fonzie said for sure. He obviously doesn't like the 32X though. I would suppose that alternating Genesis or 32X backgrounds or Sprites would take double the data in the same ROM. Wouldn't the 32X data take more space in ROM than tiles or the Genesis?

Either way, if a 40Mb Genesis game was really going to take advantage of that space just for a Genesis game it would be wasteful to add 32X support outside of simple overlay effects, or like you say a bonus round or something.

I don't see why the game would have to be ground up designed for the 32X in the later case, and if there isn't a serious change in the programming for the Genesis game I really don't see a problem.

[axel]

You have all that correct, but you CAN fill the ENTIRE 32X display at better than 60 FPS. However, that's about all you could do at that frame rate is fill the screen once. So you could do one layer, or sprites, but trying to do more layers or layers and sprites means you cannot redraw the whole display each time. But that would be silly for such a game in any case. What you want to do is take advantage of scrolling and only redraw the new sections of a layer that appear. If you did that, you could do one layer (with parallax sections) as well as sprites at 60 FPS. Doing two completely independent layers requires more work that you can probably do in one frame, so I don't see doing two layers at 60FPS without making restrictions, like having two layers only over part of the screen.

Would this help with extra layers?

[Chilly Willy]

Would this help with extra layers?

Of course! The more the merrier!

That would be cool if it were possible - I'd love to try to get two or three 32Xs running together.

Okay, that runs contrary to what Fonzie said for sure. He obviously doesn't like the 32X though. I would suppose that alternating Genesis or 32X backgrounds or Sprites would take double the data in the same ROM. Wouldn't the 32X data take more space in ROM than tiles or the Genesis?

You can do tiles on the 32X as well, but that would all be software driven... basically just a fixed grid of sprites. That's how one thing for the 32X is done... SuperVDP - there's a demo of that over at SpritesMind, but it uses a tile/sprite design to do two layers + sprites at 30+ FPS on the 32X alone (no MD layers or sprites). It's a good example of doing "traditional" 2D on the 32X.

Either way, if a 40Mb Genesis game was really going to take advantage of that space just for a Genesis game it would be wasteful to add 32X support outside of simple overlay effects, or like you say a bonus round or something.

I don't see why the game would have to be ground up designed for the 32X in the later case, and if there isn't a serious change in the programming for the Genesis game I really don't see a problem.

I just meant that the 32X sections would need to be thought of ahead of time and integrated completely with the MD side of things, with good 32X side code for FULL speed.

[MEGADRIVE Jeroi]

Would this help with extra layers?

Is that Commodore 128 what you have there? Talking about blast processing god dammit!

[axel]

Is that Commodore 128 what you have there? Talking about blast processing god dammit!

Not my setup. I wish it was.

[Chilly Willy]

That's an Amiga 1200. You can tell it from the 600 by the full keyboard.