Comparison of 4th generation ("8/16-bit") system hardware

[Chilly Willy]

And many people would be wrong as the PCE is just an 8-bit console. A very very good 8-bit console, but 8-bit nonetheless.

I'm not going to go far into the explaining yet again what the term 16-bit means in these kinds of discussions. "16-bit" is the name of a generation of consoles that we are talking about. Once you get into classifying consoles by something irrelevant like the type of bit-ness of only the cpu, the Genesis and SNES are instantly terrible consoles compared to so much other "true" 16-bit hardware and the Intellivision becomes 16-bit and the Xbox becomes 32-bit.

I'm an engineer, not the average idiot off the street, and prefer to be a bit more precise. Call it either "4th generation" or call it by what it is, 8/16/32/64 bit. Don't try to mix them together. I have no qualms about lumping the PCE/MD/SNES together as 4th gen consoles, but don't call them all 16-bit since they clearly aren't. You might as well call the N64 a "32-bit console" simply because it came out in the same generation as the PS1 and Saturn. Nintendo didn't push the fact that they had the first 64-bit console in ads (probably because Atari soured that tactic with the Jaguar), but it would be silly to call it a 32-bit console simply because the average person on the street didn't know it was 64 bit.

[Kamahl]

I'm an engineer, not the average idiot off the street, and prefer to be a bit more precise. Call it either "4th generation" or call it by what it is, 8/16/32/64 bit. Don't try to mix them together. I have no qualms about lumping the PCE/MD/SNES together as 4th gen consoles, but don't call them all 16-bit since they clearly aren't. You might as well call the N64 a "32-bit console" simply because it came out in the same generation as the PS1 and Saturn. Nintendo didn't push the fact that they had the first 64-bit console in ads (probably because Atari soured that tactic with the Jaguar), but it would be silly to call it a 32-bit console simply because the average person on the street didn't know it was 64 bit.

This is true, I'd also prefer if the term "4th gen" was used. Calling it the 16-bit gen is a bit wrong since the intellivision was 16-bit.
About the N64. Nintendo 64. That's pushing the fact it's 64 bits right there.

[Black_Tiger]

Agreed.
PCE's 1989 games don't have something like:
@29:32

I believe that several do, but I'd have to check dates. Here's one example with better animation-

[Kamahl]

I believe that several do, but I'd have to check dates. Here's one example with better animation-

1989 in Japan. 64K of ram (which is what the genesis has for program data alone )

[Drakon]

Genesis does what NECdon't

[evilevoix]

... You need to go read about the Super A Can to get the sarcasm .

Also to agostinho and evilevoix. You guys are mixing up library quality with graphical quality. If we stick to the genres that are well represented on both consoles, the PCE wins out graphically (shooters, fighters, strategy games).

On RPGs if we count crusader of centy, brave battle saga and beyond oasis (So the MD has a fighting chance, I won't count Pier Solar since it's a homebrew and a freaking 64 meg cart), the PCE still wins.

If we go to sidescrolling adventures, the PCE can do them rather well, one only needs to look at blood gear which is pretty much on par graphically with MW 4 (surpassing it in certain areas, worse in others)

If we go to action games, the PCE has a few that look great (Castlevania Rondo of Blood and Kaze Kiri). These games can't hope to compete in animation with western developed games on big carts. You might fault the PCE hardware here but the Arcade Card or a big cart could do them, since the level of animation in games like sapphire is actually superior.

You can't fault the hardware for lacking "animation" in some genre, when it showed that level of animation in another. If it can do it, it can do it.

Now if we go to platformers, it loses, badly. It's the one genre where a lack of a second BG layer kills it completely (though there are tricks that can be done to fix this, I really need to write a demo sometime). Interestingly enough, that demo would be abusing the processor and the animation capabilities. The 2 things the system is considered poor at.

Remember, this is "Comparison of 4th generation system hardware", not who has the better library.

Again I disagree. Look at Skeleton Krew Vs anything on the PCE. It can't do a game like that and Mystic Formula is as close as it gets which is sad in terms of graphical power.

Ill give you RPGS because I have never played an RPG so I cant comment.

blood gear? Right.... Just the same quality as say Ranger X.

I mean the PCE is great and I love it but you have these rose colored glasses and see something we all don't see. The games did and always have looked to me like extremely colorful and well done 8-bit style grafx. The system could not do EWJ or Skeleton Krew or anything as smooth and amazing as Ranger X, hell not even sonic. The system did shooters OK but your idea of good grafx is Air Zonk and Blazing Lasers the just aren't. Fun, colorful cute, sure but not on par with the MD or SNES.

SFII and Rondo of Blood I find the systems best efforts and the Arcade card did some interesting things as well.

[Kamahl]

Again I disagree. Look at Skeleton Krew Vs anything on the PCE. It can't do a game like that

You mean the awesome bosses? You're right it can't, the PCE can't do that awesome tilting effect the genesis has. The second layer would have to go too. Everything else though? The arcade card or a big cart can does the trick.

and Mystic Formula is as close as it gets which is sad in terms of graphical power.

Mystic Formula is terribly animated, repeats tiles all over the place, has unexplainable flickering, etc... It looks poor. The sprites are drawn well I suppose.

blood gear? Right.... Just the same quality as say Ranger X.

Ranger-X is considered one of the best looking genesis games. I don't think Blood Gear is on par with that, not even close.

I mean the PCE is great and I love it but you have these rose colored glasses and see something we all don't see. The games did and always have looked to me like extremely colorful and well done 8-bit style grafx. The system could not do EWJ or Skeleton Krew or anything as smooth and amazing as Ranger X, hell not even sonic. The system did shooters OK but your idea of good grafx is Air Zonk and Blazing Lasers the just aren't. Fun, colorful cute, sure but not on par with the MD or SNES.

Shooters look better, only ThunderForce 4 is on par graphically with the best PCE shooters, Robo Aleste and Android Assault too I suppose (both of which really don't need the Sega-CD).
Blazing Lazers is a 1989 shmup, it came before MUSHA. You expect it to compete with 1995 games? Air Zonk looks good in that kiddy style but it's not "great" looking no.
RPGs and Fighting Games look better on the PCE too.
Of the 3 games you mentioned 2 are platformers which is the PCE's weakness. Platformers aren't the only good looking games you know?
Skeleton Krew is a 1995 game, that's competing with arcade card level games.

[sheath]

You mean the awesome bosses? You're right it can't, the PCE can't do that awesome tilting effect the genesis has. The second layer would have to go too. Everything else though? The arcade card or a big cart can does the trick.

Wait, why is that? I thought the tilting effect was just line scroll.

[Black_Tiger]

Again I disagree. Look at Skeleton Krew Vs anything on the PCE. It can't do a game like that and Mystic Formula is as close as it gets which is sad in terms of graphical power.

Lol, Mystic Formula was an example of a hallway walk 'n gun like Skeleton Crew. Again, it sounds like you're just taking my misinterpreted word for Mystic Formula being "as close as it gets" because you are so obviously unfamiliar with the PCE library. For Skeleton Crew times ten, see Sapphire.

You mean the awesome bosses? You're right it can't, the PCE can't do that awesome tilting effect the genesis has. The second layer would have to go too. Everything else though? The arcade card or a big cart can does the trick.

It can be done with sprites in as fine an increment as 16 x 16 pixel cells. Dracula X has a large enemy that the same thing, only tilting horizontally. Of course, Sapphire has large bosses rotating and spinning around in 3D, so it would be no big deal to do with straight animation.

Ill give you RPGS because I have never played an RPG so I cant comment.

I thought you knew what the PCE was capable of because you "have all the games"?

blood gear? Right.... Just the same quality as say Ranger X.

Depends on what you mean by quality. They aren't even remotely the same genre. I don't want to have to criticize Genesis games just to point out the obvious in extreme ignorance of the PC Engine's strengths. But Blood Gear has graphics that the Genesis can't do, period. The PCE can and has done most of Ranger-X n different ways, but even the most different looking substitute that would be required for one element wouldn't be nearly as big a hit as the difference in color/shading/detail that is possible. The horizontal shooter sections aren't anything that hasn't been done in PCE games, only with better color/shading, less slowdown and likely the same amount of flicker.

The PCE couldn't easily do the multi-directional stages's parallax the exact same so easily, but given the style, a simpler substitute (done like 4:00 in this video) for the often abstract art wouldn't look too out of place at all. The massive upgrade that is possible for color/shadsing/detail for everything else would certainly help make up the minor loss). Ranger-X is still a neat game, but it emphasizes the Genesis biggest weakness as much as its strengths.

I mean the PCE is great and I love it but you have these rose colored glasses and see something we all don't see. The games did and always have looked to me like extremely colorful and well done 8-bit style grafx. The system could not do EWJ or Skeleton Krew or anything as smooth and amazing as Ranger X, hell not even sonic. The system did shooters OK but your idea of good grafx is Air Zonk and Blazing Lasers the just aren't. Fun, colorful cute, sure but not on par with the MD or SNES.

You seem to have "rose colored glasses" as you count everything "the PCE can't do" yet still ignore everything that the PCE can and has done that the Genesis can't. How are World Heroes 2, Sapphire and Fatal Fury Special "cute"? Because the sprites are so huge, detailed and smoothly animated against backgrounds unmatched outside of Neo Geo?

SFII and Rondo of Blood I find the systems best efforts and the Arcade card did some interesting things as well.

You once again sound like a youtube commenter insisting you know enough about the library to dismiss it, yet only mention the most well-known games. If you place no value in actual graphic quality, horsepower, sprite ability, etc, that's fine. But all you're demonstrating is that the few PCE games you are familiar with don't suit your customized tastes.

Filling the screen with giant scaled sprites that would require six SNES systems worth of Mode-7 is only "interesting"?

[Kamahl]

(done like 4:00 in this video)

Oh look, multi directional parallax scrolling... looks like I won't have to do it .

As for the bosses in Skeleton Krew (or Contra HC, Alien Soldier, Vectorman, Gunstar Heroes, Puggsy, AoB&R, etc...), the PCE can't do the tilting effect. You need both line scrolling and vertical column scrolling to do it. You can do one on the background, the other can be emulated with sprites, but you can't apply both to the same image on the PCE. You'd need to waste a bigger cart just to mimic a silly effect (which looks cool, but not worth wasting a ton of rom space for).

[Black_Tiger]

Oh look, multi directional parallax scrolling... looks like I won't have to do it .

As for the bosses in Skeleton Krew (or Contra HC, Alien Soldier, Vectorman, Gunstar Heroes, Puggsy, AoB&R, etc...), the PCE can't do the tilting effect. You need both line scrolling and vertical column scrolling to do it. You can do one on the background, the other can be emulated with sprites, but you can't apply both to the same image on the PCE. You'd need to waste a bigger cart just to mimic a silly effect (which looks cool, but not worth wasting a ton of rom space for).

Parodius also has at least a couple stages of multi directional layered parallax like that. Metamor Jupitor has a stage with two overlapping four-way layers behind the top layer, but inbetween the top layer and those other two, is a scrolling layer of transparency effect fading in and out. So in the end you get four layers of four-way overlapping parallax, the kind that is "impossible" on PC Engine, plus a SNES style colored transparency effect... all without built-in hardware support. All done by a "colorful NES".


evilevoix: you do realize that all this stuff that the Genesis can do is also "impossible" on the Neo Geo right? And you also ctiticize the Neo Geo when you negate graphic quality (color, shading, detail, sprite size). Nobody bothered to push the PCE far with realtime polygons or 3D Doom style environments, but they do exist for PCE and are impossible on Neo Geo. The Neo Geo also has one less tile layer than the PCE or even the NES. Which I guess makes the Neo Geo a colorful Collecovision by your arguments. Neat and cute, but somewhere between Colleco and NES?

[evilevoix]

You mean the awesome bosses? You're right it can't, the PCE can't do that awesome tilting effect the genesis has. The second layer would have to go too. Everything else though? The arcade card or a big cart can does the trick.


Mystic Formula is terribly animated, repeats tiles all over the place, has unexplainable flickering, etc... It looks poor. The sprites are drawn well I suppose.


Ranger-X is considered one of the best looking genesis games. I don't think Blood Gear is on par with that, not even close.


Shooters look better, only ThunderForce 4 is on par graphically with the best PCE shooters, Robo Aleste and Android Assault too I suppose (both of which really don't need the Sega-CD).
Blazing Lazers is a 1989 shmup, it came before MUSHA. You expect it to compete with 1995 games? Air Zonk looks good in that kiddy style but it's not "great" looking no.
RPGs and Fighting Games look better on the PCE too.
Of the 3 games you mentioned 2 are platformers which is the PCE's weakness. Platformers aren't the only good looking games you know?
Skeleton Krew is a 1995 game, that's competing with arcade card level games.

Maybe that is my issue then, I like the games that the PCE is not good at. However I still feel a system from 1987 isn't as powerful as a system from years later as that is the natural order of technology. I believe the system is comparable and having memory upgrades and a cd addon not to mention massive color pallet really kept it in the running but man that system had some stinkers on it as well.

As far as shooters I only have a couple on the MD and Bio Hazard Battle is one of them and it looks and plays great. Air Zonk is a a very colorful shooter but that's it, no graphical master piece and the game is over so soon why bother?

My main point is vague in that the PCE TO ME looks like mostly 8-bit styled games with much better sound and color. Some games are above and beyond like the games you mentioned. I feel the SNES and MD far surpassed what was possible on the PCE and if the PCE could it would it was in the running to take a spot and was very popular in Japan so why not?

Lol, Mystic Formula was an example of a hallway walk 'n gun like Skeleton Crew. Again, it sounds like you're just taking my misinterpreted word for Mystic Formula being "as close as it gets" because you are so obviously unfamiliar with the PCE library. For Skeleton Crew times ten, see Sapphire.


I thought you knew what the PCE was capable of because you "have all the games"?




Depends on what you mean by quality. They aren't even remotely the same genre. I don't want to have to criticize Genesis games just to point out the obvious in extreme ignorance of the PC Engine's strengths. But Blood Gear has graphics that the Genesis can't do, period. The PCE can and has done most of Ranger-X n different ways, but even the most different looking substitute that would be required for one element wouldn't be nearly as big a hit as the difference in color/shading/detail that is possible. The horizontal shooter sections aren't anything that hasn't been done in PCE games, only with better color/shading, less slowdown and likely the same amount of flicker.

The PCE couldn't easily do the multi-directional stages's parallax the exact same so easily, but given the style, a simpler substitute (done like 4:00 in this video) for the often abstract art wouldn't look too out of place at all. The massive upgrade that is possible for color/shadsing/detail for everything else would certainly help make up the minor loss). Ranger-X is still a neat game, but it emphasizes the Genesis biggest weakness as much as its strengths.




You seem to have "rose colored glasses" as you count everything "the PCE can't do" yet still ignore everything that the PCE can and has done that the Genesis can't. How are World Heroes 2, Sapphire and Fatal Fury Special "cute"? Because the sprites are so huge, detailed and smoothly animated against backgrounds unmatched outside of Neo Geo?




You once again sound like a youtube commenter insisting you know enough about the library to dismiss it, yet only mention the most well-known games. If you place no value in actual graphic quality, horsepower, sprite ability, etc, that's fine. But all you're demonstrating is that the few PCE games you are familiar with don't suit your customized tastes.

Filling the screen with giant scaled sprites that would require six SNES systems worth of Mode-7 is only "interesting"?

You brought the comparison between Skelton Crew and mystic formula, I just commented on them, IDK why you would bring up the comparison. I am familiar with the PCE library and I have most of them in one form or another. I had a Turbo Express back in the day but yeah only shit games for that one.


I have no idea how to play RPG's, still have them all on ONE system. I play around with them and move around, they are not too appealing to me but I am sure I am missing greatness. I guess I'll try running through Y's again and move along. I have Shining force, no idea how to play it nor did I ever play anything like an RPG but Zelda 64.


Bloodgear? The only thing it can do that the MD can't is color. IDK how you can think that the PCE could do Ranger X in all smoothness and effects, you are nuts. Show me the graphx and gameplay that Bloodgear has that a MD couldn't do? Color? What else?

Arcade games look great but I am a Neo Geo Snob so I see many issues as well but admit they are the best Neo Geo Ports over SNES MD hands down. My biggest issue with the PCE version is that again CD based so more info is at the systems disposal and once you sit through the load times you do get large sprites. I dislike the speed of the games and of course that terrible zoom effect. Still shits on MD SS and SNES anything from SNK, that is absolute. Sapphire is great, nothing the Sega CD couldn't do but you argue superior hardware. I then argue it is a CD game where you can load much much more frames of animation and obvious CD style music.


I like the PCE, I just think the MD and SNES did more.

Youtube commenter? I play the games, I have them, digital copies in fact. Games are great and fun and grafx don't always make the games. I thoroughly enjoyed Bloody Wolf, loved it, grafx are poor at best in the Bitnes view of things. I liked the music and control. I think the issue is that you are taking this personally and although I love my games I don't wish to piss people off this much. I am familiar with the games and love the system, what's wrong with that? What's wrong with seeing higher quality games on a Stock MD vs the PCE, a cd add-on, a series of card add-ons and then you get a small handful of games which are truly amazing in the mid 90's. I still think a regular MD cart on a stock MD beats with the PCE did for most of it's library in graphical presentation. Fun factor? I think the systems are on par, I like them both the same in that faction, maybe the MD a smidgen more as it is so easy to get games without getting raped but that is the markets fault and not the systems so par on fun factor and that is all that matters.

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[evilevoix]

evilevoix: you do realize that all this stuff that the Genesis can do is also "impossible" on the Neo Geo right? And you also ctiticize the Neo Geo when you negate graphic quality (color, shading, detail, sprite size). Nobody bothered to push the PCE far with realtime polygons or 3D Doom style environments, but they do exist for PCE and are impossible on Neo Geo. The Neo Geo also has one less tile layer than the PCE or even the NES. Which I guess makes the Neo Geo a colorful Collecovision by your arguments. Neat and cute, but somewhere between Colleco and NES?

The Neo Geo rules and I never get tired of hearing compliments on the system. Any arguments against the Neo Geo (arcade hardware for sure but still a home console for the well heeled) and then if you think that any system is on par with the Neo in terms of Grafx and sound (Even the PS1 and Saturn struggled to port the games perfectly) you are crazy. It was a 2D system and limited to it's arcade 4 button control scheme and obviously couldn't upgrade the control scheme without upgrading the VAST MVS arcade front unless you include Irritating Maze. Most systems could at least have different controllers, steering wheels, light guns. Not the Neo, limited to the rainbow button scheme and a perfect arcade joy stick. So yes weaknesses in what games can be produced.


Neo Had Great colors and sound detail and sprite size. All of which was unmatched or even came close for the time. Less tile layer? Really showed up when we played these games. WhenI played MOTW, I always though WOW the PCE could have done it better in some way or the NES could do a TILE extra of the PCE CD may have had better music in exchange for 3 hour load times...... No. Listen, I know you are upset, and your silly Colecovision comparison is proof of it but the NEO GEO had no weaknesses other than it's exorbitant price tag. The system itself was nothing more than a supercharged Sega Genesis in some respects but access to MASSIVE amounts of information instantly. Those attributes still make amazing looking games to this day. Being able to get beautiful hand drawn grafx with massive color and animation instantly makes a great game system. The Neo was he first home console to do that (yes again arcade hardware I know)

As far as 3D on the PCE, you think the PCE could do a convincing copy of DOOM in any way? What 3D games on the PCE Double Dungeons (kidding) Neo Geo? Super spy (HA) Doubt it unless you got a special hardware upgrade in the cart like SNES DOOM but still not amazing. I am willing to bet in 2003 a better port of Super Spy could have been made similar to Wolfenstein but that's it. The detail, sound, scrolling, animation and sprites would again have killed the competition but 2000's were tough goings for the Neo and people still payed and played KOF so why bother with a Pseudo 3D game when we had Halo at the time.

The point is the Neo was far superior then anything from it's time period and then some and it's 13 year lifespan proves it. You did however pay for it and people like me still are.

[Thenewguy]

Legendary Axe looks way better than what was released on the genesis during that time.

Except the player sprite looks like an oversized NES sprite for some reason

Kaze Kiri looks on par with Shinobi 3.

Kaze Kiri looks like an unpolished homebrew game.

Also, this game is complete and utter junk, reminds me of Kung Fu Master.

Bloody Wolf looks better than MERCS

No way!

Bloody Wolf looks barely better than an SMS game, Mercs has waay better, brighter colour use, more detailed pixel art, bigger, more impressive weaponry, better effects, parallax etc, better animation (some of the animation in Bloody Wolf looks iffy, enemies being blown up for instance), even in straight colour counts Bloody Wolf barely wins out (seems to have 5-10 on-screen colours more than Mercs in the screenshots I checked) but even then, as I said the colour use in Mercs is better, Bloody Wolf has some really crude looking colour choices in places.



Other than that carry on, I consider PC-Engine on par with MD/SNES, and if it had parallax layers I would've considered saying the hardware was the best overall to be honest.

[evilevoix]

No way!

Bloody Wolf looks barely better than an SMS game, Mercs has waay better, brighter colour use, more detailed pixel art, bigger, more impressive weaponry, better effects, parallax etc, better animation (some of the animation in Bloody Wolf looks iffy, enemies being blown up for instance), even in straight colour counts Bloody Wolf barely wins out (seems to have 5-10 on-screen colours more than Mercs in the screenshots I checked) but even then, as I said the colour use in Mercs is better, Bloody Wolf has some really crude looking colour choices in places.



Other than that carry on, I consider PC-Engine on par with MD/SNES, and if it had parallax layers I would've considered saying the hardware was the best overall to be honest.

Bloody Wolf is fun man, don't knock it.