Comparison of 4th generation ("8/16-bit") system hardware

[kool kitty89]

I forgot to address this earlier:

It only has 3 sprites in areas with few enemies. Wasting 2/16 sprites isn't that big of a deal, 14 sprites per line is more than enough for a platformer.

It's not just about the number of sprites on the line, but the pixels as well. You could max out sprite bandwidth with very few (large) sprites due to that: 8 32 pixel wide sprites would max it out. (PCE is limited to 256 sprite pixels per line)

That level looks like its using 32 pixel wide sprites for those column rock patterns, so 96 pixels in lines where 3 columns align leaving 160 pixels for other sprites. (a maximum of 10 16 pixel wide sprites without flicker/drop-out, or 5 32 pixel wide sprites -and the player and most items look like 32 pixels wide, though some enemies look like 16 pixels)


Edit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=chbWfJx3Ttg
You also forgot to mention the parallax at 4:50-5:40)

The foreground in those areas cover entire tiles, no gaps where the background can be seen at all. That's why dynamic tiles work there, since the background never mixes with the foreground, you only need to update the background tiles and nothing else.

In fact I think I'm the only idiot who did dynamic tiles inside dynamic tiles (remember that 5 layers demo?).

Some of metal storm's later levels look like they're doing something like that. (animation with overlapping layers within a single tile -ie the "layers" are within the animated graphics)
Stages 1 and 2 are generally just using the single "layer" simulated with animation (in addition to the foreground scrolling), but stage 3 had the "background" section animate several overlapping layers.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j5dvV0rdkTY

(see 2:44 -level 6 is another good example at 6:53)

Some stages also have diagonal scrolling on the far BG. (I mean specific animation when the player moves diagonally, not just the animation moving diagonally)

On another note, Metal Storm also has some serious problems with music being cut off by SFX. (the entire lead is often cut-out -seems like many SFX use both pulse wave channels)

Until you figure out that determining which tiles are the animated background can potentially end up eating more CPU time than just changing the graphics of four tiles (since the code could become much more complex).

Hmm, so making it even more advantageous to just update the charset. (which, again, also makes more efficient use of the limited set of characters -especially in 5 color mode's 128 char limit -or catering to limited graphics RAM space, especially with the SMS -relatively high color depth as well as limited RAM)

You can't do that with the NES though . . . you'd have to rely in remapping tiles to other tiles (and general mapper functionality) unless VRAM was added on-cart. (in the latter case, the animated tiles could be limited to VRAM)
Plus (without special mappers) the NES has the 16x16 color attribute limitation . . . and you don't have scanline/raster interrupts to facilitate palette swaps either (at least without added hardware). SMS had the latter problem too iirc.

[Kamahl]

Edit:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=chbWfJx3Ttg
You also forgot to mention the parallax at 4:50-5:40)

I didn't forget, it's the same effect as the cave stage.

[Sik]

You can't do that with the NES though . . . you'd have to rely in remapping tiles to other tiles (and general mapper functionality) unless VRAM was added on-cart. (in the latter case, the animated tiles could be limited to VRAM)

One of the Megaman games uses the mapper to do that, so it really wasn't all that far-fetched.

Plus (without special mappers) the NES has the 16x16 color attribute limitation . . . and you don't have scanline/raster interrupts to facilitate palette swaps either (at least without added hardware). SMS had the latter problem too iirc.

I thought the 16×16 limitation was there regardless of mappers.

[kool kitty89]

I thought the 16×16 limitation was there regardless of mappers.

The MMC5 allowed 8x8 color attributes. (among other things)

[Sik]

The MMC5 allowed 8x8 color attributes. (among other things)

Did you just make a one-liner again? Where is the real kool kitty? D:<

[kool kitty89]

Did you just make a one-liner again? Where is the real kool kitty? D:<

The "(among other things)" part kept me from rambling on about the MMC5 and other mappers, sound, etc. (which I almost did do)

[Kamahl]

The "(among other things)" part kept me from rambling on about the MMC5 and other mappers, sound, etc. (which I almost did do)

OMG you did it again. Don't worry Sik, I've contacted the authorities.

[Sik]

OMG you did it again. Don't worry Sik, I've contacted the authorities.

I'm pretty sure he has an evil twin =&

[Chilly Willy]

OMG you did it again. Don't worry Sik, I've contacted the authorities.

You're worrying over nothing. He's just taking his meds like he's supposed to.

[sheath]

You're worrying over nothing. He's just taking his meds like he's supposed to.

Damn you rep limiter!

[Da_Shocker]

Instead of giving us the 32X would Sega had been better off upgrading the regular SCd with a cart that included a VDP with more color and 1MB of ram?

[Sik]

I think Sega would have been better off not doing anything and just focusing on the Saturn =|

[Kamahl]

I think Sega would have been better off not doing anything and just focusing on the Saturn =|

^

[Da_Shocker]

I think Sega would have been better off not doing anything and just focusing on the Saturn =|

True true but that would require Sega to have some common sense and we all know Sega was lacking in that department later on.

[kool kitty89]

I think Sega would have been better off not doing anything and just focusing on the Saturn =|

Yeah, though the Saturn alone had a lot of problems (and I don't mean just technical stuff). There's a ton of management/marketing issues that don't seem to have had anything to do with the 32x (though having the 32x there exacerbated the whole situation).

Sega had problems properly managing the Genesis late gen (ie 1994 onward) to maximize profits, PR, etc, and neither the 32x nor Saturn (but especially having both) didn't help that.
Then there's the huge missed opportunities with the Game Gear languishing in the mid 90s. (they needed a new hardware update that was lower cost, compact and especially lower power . . . further consolidating the chipset and using newer process low-power ASICs would do some of that, but there's the far bigger issue:
backlit screens had been absolutely necessary in the early 90s, but by ~1995 there were reflective color lcd screens with more acceptable contrast/color quality -obviously, backlighting still looks better, but what good is that if it causes the system to be bulky and eat through batteries like crazy -and require 6 of them at that . . . it obviously wouldn't have been able to match the GBP's size, but the GBP had the considerable disadvantage of a far, far weaker battery life -more on par with the GG than the brick GB-) Marketing and software support were factors for the GG as well.


But as to the Saturn: assuming the 32x was never on the table and the Saturn was released with similar hardware, similar software support (including dev tools), and with similar management, you've still got some massive problems.
There's the whole issue of the Saturn's costly hardware making it difficult to market (or very costly to eat losses at a more effective price), then the limited/poor tools (repeating Sega's mistake with the Sega CD), and poor conditions of the launch in general.

In japan, the launch lineup was small but not out of the ordinary, and in any case the launch was very successful for Sega.
In the US it was another matter entirely . . . 32x or no, they shouldn't have launched the Saturn until fall of '95 (to focus hype near the optimal sales season). No successful console has ever been launched in the US in the spring, always in late summer, fall, or early winter.
You could argue a lack of 32x might have led to better early software on the Saturn (mostly from the Japanese end . . . though they really should have been designing 32x games to be Saturn multiplat from day 1 anyway), but launching in the fall of 1995 would have had a far, far stronger lineup regardless of that.

With a fall launch, First impressions would be much better with hype/marketing more focused and a far more impressive software lineup (relatively competitive with Sony's), and likely a far more attractive price point as well. (partially facilitated by economies of scale and some minor hardware consolidation, but also just from investing more and taking greater losses on hardware -which Sega already did do in fall of 1995, dropping the Saturn to $300 to price match Sony shortly after the PSX's launch -though the bad PR from the earlier launch had already done tons of damage)

Of course, if SoA was smart, they'd recognize that 1995 was still only the prelude to the next generation with the older gen systems still dominating the market for the entirety of that year (and well into 1996), rather like the NES's position in 1990/1991. So supporting the Genesis (and maybe CD) tactfully would be critical as well. (the 32x in some respects was an attempt at pushing the Genesis, but it almost certainly would have done more harm than good there regardless -too costly, conflicting with general mass market interests in the Genesis, etc -releasing new genesis games and the CD were the real considerations . . . perhaps more "chipped" carts or maybe a very low cost lock-on cart add-on -the latter only if done by 1994 though, the CD also would have needed support/management shifted in 1994 to be very relevant in 1995 -obviously simpler to just work with the Genesis and relatively simple/cheap on-cart enhancements)

In addition too the support for the mainstream bread and butter 16-bit consoles in the US, that recognition of 1995 being a prelude to the full next-gen market would mean planning ahead for a major/definitive thrust into the new generation. The exact timing would have been hard to guage, but in hindsight it was obviously the 1996 holiday season. 1996 was the time to door die, if a play wasn't made successfully by then (to establish a platform on the mass market), there was little chance to make it in that generation. (and 1997 further solidified the overall market position -FFVII obviously being a huge boon for Sony)
So, Sega needed to have the marketing funds prepared and the right marketing strategy (with good advertising) as well as good software (especially some killer apps, or at least 1 definitive killer exclusive -it would take far more numerous "good" games to make up for lack of a killer one like Mario 64) all prepared to push into the 1996 holiday season.


Addressing the technical issues of the Saturn would have been notable (and the SDK issue could be addressed after the fact), but the non-technical issues were far more serious. (and really, the technical abilities of a system rarely make or break its position on the market . . . cost effectiveness tends to be more important, though other management factors and contextual issues of the market -some up to chance/luck- are far more significant -and obviously having substantial investment capital)