Quantcast

Page 2 of 82 FirstFirst 1234561252 ... LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 1216

Thread: Comparison of 4th generation ("8/16-bit") system hardware

  1. #16
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Belgium
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,440
    Rep Power
    137

    Default

    This thread is turning better than I expected.
    But come on, you could have made it white letters on black background for the last bit -_-.
    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

  2. #17
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2010
    Location
    Texas
    Age
    42
    Posts
    13,313
    Rep Power
    130

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    ...

    The lynx is freaking awesome, it would have made a brilliant home console. Making it a handheld was a bad idea.
    And what's wrong with PCs from that era? Other than the shitty game libraries .

    Also the lack of parallax scrolling on the PC Engine isn't THAT big of a limitation... Ok it really should have 2 layers, and it even was supposed to have them, that was a freaking huge mistake hudson made, but really.
    The only genre that suffers are platformers, everything else can be done with sweet parallax scrolling on the PCE.
    I missed this response earlier, and it's all your fault! The Lynx is freaking awesome, but it would have made a crappy console because it had no blast processor or Mode 7. PC's from that era just don't exist, that is all. Finally, the PC-Engine could only handle parallax in shooters if there was a superior bios involved, which never happened. What are you getting at!?

  3. #18
    ESWAT Veteran Chilly Willy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Posts
    6,744
    Rep Power
    77

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    But it can be done right? How much "wasteful" would it be to do something like this? You'd normally have at least 2 shades of some color anyway, replacing one of those with the "shadow" pixels saves you a lot of colors.
    It uses the same amount of vram; all you save is the extra palette. IF the graphics have colors that are half an existing color, that would save a palette entry. So it depends on the graphics, but if you're trying to do shading for a more 3D look, it will do a better job with the same number of palette entries, or the same job with fewer palette entries. So instead of needing to reserve 6 entries in the palette for shading, maybe you only need 3 instead.

  4. #19
    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Age
    30
    Posts
    9,725
    Rep Power
    63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Chilly Willy View Post
    That TG16 thread got wild for a while.

    You don't need shadows for double the colors using both layers on the MD, just use the layers directly. Use the pattern names to set one layer to one set of 16 colors, and the other layer to another different set of 16 colors. Then just draw the pixel in the layer that has the color it's using. 32 colors at the expense of twice the memory... well 31 colors + transparent for the layer on top.
    You could get up to 46 colors/shades per tile (and 122 colors/shades per line) if you used shadow AND the normal palette entries for such a paired single BG layer. You wouldn't use double the memory necessarily either since you could opt to do some tiles as normal 16 color cells and possibly even optimize for some different combinations of tiles paired on the 2 layers.

    Another option could be to simply slave the 2nd layer for shading full tiles at a time to allow shadowed versions of the normal palettes (or even use a simplistic set of semigraphics style cells for shadowing with simple patterns rather than the full tile). That's far more limited and wasteful though, but perhaps more attractive for FMV.



    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    The idea was to NOT waste a palette
    You wouldn't waste a palette, you'd combine the palettes: use all 4 palettes, but with the ability to configure them in pairs (so effectively 10 different palettes of 31 colors, but with limited variety).
    You could use shadow on top of that to further boost shades on-screen and overall colors to up to 46 per cell (and 122 per line/screen).




    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    But it can be done right? How much "wasteful" would it be to do something like this? You'd normally have at least 2 shades of some color anyway, replacing one of those with the "shadow" pixels saves you a lot of colors.
    THe real waste would be losing the 2nd BG layer and using more VRAM (and cart space) for the additional tile data. (but, again, the latter could at least be minimized by careful art design and optimization that used single layer 16 color cells for some things and possibly used different combinations of front and back tile pairs rather than having 1 unique pair for each pseudo 8bpp tile)

    The lynx is freaking awesome, it would have made a brilliant home console. Making it a handheld was a bad idea.
    I thought that too, but it turns out that it's really not very practical as a home console (at least not without major modifications to the custom chips or hacked on hardware, and it's more cost effective to do a new design from the ground up -though building a home console inspired by the Lynx's overall design could have been nice, probably a lot better than the Panther).








    Oh, and on a serious note, the PC Engine CD would have beaten the crap out of the Neo Geo if it had only gotten the super 32-bit double speed BIOS upgrade.
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

  5. #20
    ding-doaw Raging in the Streets tomaitheous's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Sonoran Desert
    Age
    43
    Posts
    3,981
    Rep Power
    76

    Default

    The lynx would make a fucking great console! Imagine, that 160 × 102 resolution on a 50+ inch display? Lordy, lordy. Talk about a magnitude of giant pixels with a multiplex of right angle orgasms. You don't even know!

  6. #21
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Belgium
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,440
    Rep Power
    137

    Default

    I'm of course talking about a design BASED on the lynx, even the soundchip would have been too lame for a home console.
    That scaling chip just screams "put me on a damn home console".

    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    Oh, and on a serious note, the PC Engine CD would have beaten the crap out of the Neo Geo if it had only gotten the super 32-bit double speed BIOS upgrade.
    The system hardware was just too limited, it's an 8bit system. It could never do aladdin, I don't know how you keep ignoring this. It needed all those upgrades just to compete.
    Now the Neo Geo, that was a true 24bit system. You see, it had 2 processors like the genesis (16bit + 8bit), but it had a more advanced bios that combined them to make 24bit, I don't know how you keep ignoring this.

    (EDIT: Will we ever stop joking around with evilevoix's comments ? I don't want this thread to derail too much)

    Another question, which is better at 3D?
    The Amiga, ST, X68000 or Genesis?

    The Amiga has basic flat shaded polygon drawing support (by drawing lines and then filling them), the ST has an extra 1Mhz on the processor, the X68000 has a bitmap layer + 10Mhz processor, and the Genesis uses packed pixels.

    Did any game even take advantage of the extra polygon pushing power of the blitter? Or did that suck ass compared to pure CPU rendering?
    No second prize seems just as fast on the Amiga as it does on the ST.

    I assume the X68000 is king, 10Mhz + bitmap layer makes 3D very easy:
    Last edited by Kamahl; 08-22-2011 at 10:02 PM.
    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

  7. #22
    Road Rasher
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Posts
    481
    Rep Power
    15

    Default

    The Neo Geo sux, it cant do polygons at all, havent you guys seen the other thread?, i guess SNK should have released the rumored super dupper 3d bios for it, but since they didnt, as far as i am concerned the Neo Geo doesnt belong in this generation, everyone kicks its ass when polygons are concerned. I have played every Neo Geo game, it doesnt have anything like Megadrives LHX or PCEngines Gunboat (no bios requiered!) so it cant do them, not even close to that quality, it also cant do real height-mapped FPS, i have played every NG game and it doesnt have one, so it cant do them at all, SNES kills it with its Wolfenstein 3d port. If a homebrewer proves me wrong, it doesnt count because it took 20 years of knowledge and current super coding techniques along with custom 128 bit bios to do so...sorry, i would put the Neo Geo maybe along with the 16 bit Intellivision... Hell, PCEngine at least has hardware support for a single background layer, you know how many the Neo Geo supports... NONE, NOTHING, NADA...talk about a LAME console, hahaha.

  8. #23
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,529
    Rep Power
    64

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    the Z80 was a waste of silicone
    Yet the only way to get any PCM playback on the MD... (stupid Sega for thinking that the DAC on the YM2612 was enough)

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Bad FM music usually makes me want to blow up a building owned by EA.
    I should make you listen to more bad FM music then. May want to target Activision and Ubisoft too.

  9. #24
    Mastering your Systems Shining Hero TmEE's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Estonia, Rapla City
    Age
    30
    Posts
    10,092
    Rep Power
    110

    Default

    MD would have been much worse without a Z80. The FM chips are so slow and you really do not want to waste power by sitting and doing nothing while you wait when you can write again...
    That X68000 game is very impressive, very smooth polygons and gameplay seems very nice too
    Death To MP3, :3
    Mida sa loed ? Nagunii aru ei saa "Gnirts test is a shit" New and growing website of total jawusumness !
    If any of my images in my posts no longer work you can find them in "FileDen Dump" on my site ^

  10. #25
    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    San Jose, CA
    Age
    30
    Posts
    9,725
    Rep Power
    63

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    I'm of course talking about a design BASED on the lynx, even the soundchip would have been too lame for a home console.
    That scaling chip just screams "put me on a damn home console".
    And that's what I was addressing too. Kskunk addressed this here: http://www.atariage.com/forums/topic...-lynx-chipset/

    Even at full bandwidth (no CPU taking up bus time), Suzy can only manage 8 Mpixels/s peak (and practically less than that due to DRAM wait states), and that's working with 4-bit pixels (16 colors per line). Assuming it was practical to at least modify the Lynx enough to support higher resolution video with analog RGB output (say in the 256-320x204-224 pixel range) and extended Suzy's addressing to go beyond 64k to allow for decent framebuffer+texture space (even if just using bank switching), that bandwidth limit would be a significant issue. (especially given the Lynx's shared/single bus architecture, unless you modified it even more to have a separate CPU bus, but the more you change the more you're better off starting from the ground up)

    Another question, which is better at 3D?
    The Amiga, ST, X68000 or Genesis?
    For stock systems in launch configuration (7 MHz Amiga, 8 MHz ST, and 10 MHz x68k), x68k wins easily (support for 8-bpp packed framebuffer, faster CPU, etc). Genesis would probably be second due to packed pixels (especially for games rendering with pairs of pixels limited to byte alignment -so no bit manipulation at all).

    Sega CD should beat that (except in color), but you didn't include that in the list.

    Did any game even take advantage of the extra polygon pushing power of the blitter? Or did that suck ass compared to pure CPU rendering?
    No second prize seems just as fast on the Amiga as it does on the ST.
    The blitter should have helped somewhat (for less CPU intensive 3D games it should be better than the ST), but software rendering to an 8bpp framebuffer on the x68k should be faster for pretty much any sort of 3D/pseudo 3D.

    I assume the X68000 is king, 10Mhz + bitmap layer makes 3D very easy:
    Yes, but a good number of 3D x68000 games needed faster CPUs to perform reasonably. (16 MHz 68k, or probably '030 for some)




    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Yet the only way to get any PCM playback on the MD... (stupid Sega for thinking that the DAC on the YM2612 was enough)
    Technically you could do that without the Z80 too, just use the 68000 alone like many ST games do (or like PCE games, but the 650x makes that a lot more efficient using interrupt driven PCM).
    Had they simply connected the YM's interrupt lines to the Z80, weaker Z80 programmers would have had a much easier time with software based PCM (especially for drivers using the Z80 for nothing but PCM).
    Last edited by kool kitty89; 08-23-2011 at 05:09 AM.
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
    -------------
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

  11. #26
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,529
    Rep Power
    64

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Technically you could do that without the Z80 too, just use the 68000 alone like many ST games do (or like PCE games, but the 650x makes that a lot more efficient using interrupt driven PCM).
    Except because then you'll have to pause the game to do any PCM playback =/ (remember the 68000 only gets interrupts from the VDP)

    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Had they simply connected the YM's interrupt lines to the Z80, weaker Z80 programmers would have had a much easier time with software based PCM (especially for drivers using the Z80 for nothing but PCM).
    Yes, but it wouldn't have hidden all the issues with timer inaccuracy anyways (the timers don't loop, so by definition they need to be restarted each time and the inaccuracy adds up). Drivers using the Z80 only for PCM just use busy loops...

  12. #27
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Belgium
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,440
    Rep Power
    137

    Default

    That recording of Geograph Seal is very likely running on a 16Mhz X68000, it's too fast. Although the game is playable on a standard 10Mhz one.
    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

  13. #28
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,529
    Rep Power
    64

    Default

    Does anybody think the Mega Drive could pull off something like that if the resolution was halved? (though vertex processing still would be a pain)

  14. #29
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Belgium
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,440
    Rep Power
    137

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sik View Post
    Does anybody think the Mega Drive could pull off something like that if the resolution was halved? (though vertex processing still would be a pain)
    Maybe at the original speed, not as fast as that video for sure. Would be a really cool way to shut up SNES fans . "Where's your SuperFX chip NOW?!"
    This thread needs more... ENGINEERS

  15. #30
    Raging in the Streets Sik's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Posts
    3,529
    Rep Power
    64

    Default

    Well, remember I do know of a trick that lets you work with a pseudo-linear bitmap in RAM that can be loaded into VRAM directly without converting it to tiles (it involves autoincrement abuse). It can also be used to double the pixels vertically without raster effects and without doubling the required transfer bandwidth (although in that case both tilemaps get used).

    EDIT: more facts, to transfer an entire 256×192 image to VRAM with that method I'd need two frames in NTSC. In PAL I'd only need one, which can lead to some interesting results for demoscene...

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •