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Thread: PS2 vs Game Cube graphics?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yharnamresident View Post
    Its been known for almost 2 decades that the GCN is more powerful than the PS2.
    How would you explain these numbers? (no joke)
    literally, all numbers are bigger to me, I would say it is at least 1,6x globally.

    without delving into specs.

    PS2; CPU EE (core + vu1 + vu0) 6,2 Gigaflops;
    GCN: CPU (single core) 1.9 Gigaflops;

    Mídia: PS2 DVD 4,7GB/8,4GB
    Mídia: GCN Mini dvd 1,5GB

    Gráficos: 2,4 Giga Pixels max theoretical performance
    Gráficos: 0,6 Giga Pixels max theoretical performance

    PS2: Memory Array: 4MB Vram Cache 40 gb / s + 32MB main dram 3.2gb / s + 2mb sound: Total: 36MB (4+32) + sound 2mb + ps1 memory. Total: 40MB
    GCN: Memory Array: 3MB Vram (2mb para framebuffer) + 1mb texture cache de 1t-sram 20gb / s + 24MB main 2.6 gb / s + 16mb auxiliar 81mb / s (used only for sound,loading and otimizations) Total: 27MB (3+24) + sound 16mb of slow A-memory Total: 43MB

    I have something is that important to comment about s3tc texture compression, yes they compress the textures to fit that 1MB, but due to the size of Mini dvd all game assets tend to be software compressed (not using s3tc) the results scare so much blurry, like 007 From Russia with love, For this not to happen it is necessary that from the beginning the games are designed for, not like Tony Hawk american westland who had almost every scene changed from day to night to save performance. Second comment is about multipasses, so the only advantage of doing everything with fewer passes is that it is simpler to do, not that the result is not obtained in ps2, the difference is that it is more difficult for Devs do it there.

    More numbers : (native resolutions of gcn games)

    Sonic Adventure 2 640x480(yeah) output 480p
    Star wars RS2: 640x450, 640x304 output 480p
    Star wars RS3: 512x450, 512x304 output 480p
    Metroid Prime2 640x448 output 480p
    Resident Evil Remake: 640x448 512x448 output 480i
    RE4: 640x448 512x448 ''LetterBoxed'' for visible area 640x278 512x278 output 480p
    Metal Gear Twin snake 512x448 output 480p
    Dragon Ball Budokai 2 512x240 output 480i
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-30-2019 at 10:52 AM.

  2. #152
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    The best use of the VMU in-game IMO was Sonic Shuffle. Sonic Shuffle was Mario Party - Mario + Sonic. Instead of dice, everyone had cards and they were only visible on each player's VMU. You could try and steal someone else's card, but you'd be stealing blind and the other person could shuffle them at will if they thought you were getting close to a good card.

    It's still a fun game to play occasionally with friends, if only for the chaos of the amazingly unfair AI that screws you whenever it has the chance.
    Always been curious about that game. I liked the idea back then of a Sonic Mario party but that bad word of mouth put me off.



    Life!? ... What console is that on?

  3. #153
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    The problem here is that ABF checklist logic is being used. People who can't judge what they actually see on screen and are only reverse engineering arguments based on <my-favorite-system, like to take random specs out of context and resort to an inorganic dick measuring contest.

    The concept of "power" is the most abused and misunderstood term and happens to be debated over the most. When multiple people have different ideas of what an ambiguous term like "power" means, it always leads to arguments which can never be resolved.

    The PS2 has the least "clean" looking image of its generation. No matter how much it can push specific aspects of 3D visuals in random games, it is buried behind misc distortion like "Emotion" blur, interlace, shimmerfest, jagation, etc". PS2 games tend to look kind of "dirty" compared to its peers.

    The Dreamcast wowed at first, because it gave us what many wanted from next gen: fixing the typical issues in 32-bit gen 3D. No more pop-up in many games, solid models with smoorh/sharp edges, no warping, smooth framerates, detailed textures, etc. Then the PS2 showed up and kind of took one step forward, on step backward, by compromising visual integrety while pushing more polygons.

    Decent Gamecube and Xbox games tend to give the impression of overall having the strengths of both DC and PS2 visuals. It doesn't matter what some random technicalities or theoretical potentials are, in the actual software that exists, GC and Xbox have the nicest looking games and the Xbox has several games that look and feel more visually substantial than software on the other consoles.

    But you can't explain or convince someone who blind to their favorite console's quirks. Nothing anyone says will "explain" those numbers to SegaAMD, any more than we could convince ABF that horrifically low res textures in Zelda blurred beyond oblivion isn't "more detailed than actually detailed textures.

    You should be able to just tell them to turn around and look at their TV screen again, but what is right in front of their eyes doesn't mean anything when you have a select list of specs to copy/paste.

    This is why specific console appreciation threads are better. Celebrating a single consoles achievements for how they excel within its own library fosters constructive discussion. What other random platforms have shouldn't take away from any on console's library. Even talking about how or why something was great "for the time" doesn't typically devolve into this kind of spec sheet war.
    Quote Originally Posted by year2kill06
    everyone knows nintendo is far way cooler than sega just face it nintendo has more better games and originals

  4. #154
    Hedgehog-in-Training Hedgehog-in-Training SegaDreamcast's Avatar
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    The cell-shaded graphics were top tier for their time. The original Mario Party trilogy had much better gameplay though. Always thought they should have tried again, made a sequel. Preordered it the moment it was announced back in the day.

  5. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    But you can't explain or convince someone who blind to their favorite console's quirks. Nothing anyone says will "explain" those numbers to SegaAMD, any more than we could convince ABF that horrifically low res textures in Zelda blurred beyond oblivion isn't "more detailed than actually detailed textures.
    I am not a playstation 2 fan, I also like to enjoy consoles for their games, Dreamcast and Saturn are my favorite consoles, by the way I prefer Saturn, I enjoyed DC to the max playing even games like 102 Dalmatians

    honestly i'm not sure how both machines should be compared, i particularly prefer to use the exclusives of each system in similar style and conditions .

    but the arguments in favor of GCN are very elusive, for example RE4/Rogue Squadron 2 is taken as the game that displays the difference between both consoles, Fine, but this equation omits games like: Battlefront 2 (space stages) True Crimes NYC (huge performance gap) All need for speeds, All fps games minus Timesplatters, all fixed cam games, all open world games and others I won't mention because they are controversial.

    GameCube was a console well supported by devs, there are over 600 games, about 250 games in common with PS2 (maybe more) but only 180 are relevant games, because in this account comes many annual sports games, repeated naruto games and the like.

    follows the balance:

    180 games analized and compiled (by ign head to head, youtubers and me)
    52 are better on GCN
    128 are equal or better on ps2,
    the percentage of better multiplatform on cube are 30% of the total, relevant games
    70% or are equal or better on ps2,
    of those 52, only 12 have substancial improvements (by substantial improvement understand, differences that go beyond AA or 480p vs 480i are shadow missing, physics, frame drop, geometry, Lighting effects ...)
    12 games is 7% of the total (180).
    Among the remaining 128, 38 show substantial differences in favor of ps2 (3x more) which equals 21% of the relevant multis.

    Games 480p (progressive) GCN: 201 games PS2: over 180 games
    Games 16:9 GCN: 71 games PS2: over 240 games
    Games with 16:9 and 480p at the same time
    GCN: 55 games PS2: 125 game
    Exclusive games 480p GCN all minus RE remake, Zero, Monkey ball 1, lost kingdons
    Exclusive games 480p and 16:9 same time GCN: 8 games
    PS2 games exclisves 480p and at 16:9 same time over 16
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 08-30-2019 at 09:06 PM.

  6. #156
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Yes, but you have to take into consideration that the Lion’s share of 3rd party games were developed on the PS2 and then ported to the other consoles. The Xbox was flat out way more powerful than the PS2, but you’d still see sloppy ports like MGS2 on the Xbox, because its hardware was totally different than that of the PS2. The Xbox does, however, have a better version of GTA: San Andreas, because it has its roots with the PC game.

    I’ve played Star Wars Battlefront 1 & 2, along with Battlefield 2 on Xbox LIVE. The graphics in those games aren’t even comparable to Rogue Squadron 2: Rogue Leader. I get the impression that you haven’t played games on the GC.
    Last edited by gamevet; 08-30-2019 at 10:03 PM.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  7. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    But you can't explain or convince someone who blind to their favorite console's quirks. Nothing anyone says will "explain" those numbers to SegaAMD, any more than we could convince ABF that horrifically low res textures in Zelda blurred beyond oblivion isn't "more detailed than actually detailed textures.
    Thanks for reminding me why I initially gave up debating with SegaAMD, and should've remained that way.

    Like Barone clearly prefers the PS2, but he does a relatively good job of being unbiased. But this guy is a whole other level.

    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    The Dreamcast wowed at first, because it gave us what many wanted from next gen: fixing the typical issues in 32-bit gen 3D. No more pop-up in many games, solid models with smoorh/sharp edges, no warping, smooth framerates, detailed textures, etc. Then the PS2 showed up and kind of took one step forward, on step backward, by compromising visual integrety while pushing more polygons.
    A very good way to summarize it.



    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Always been curious about that game. I liked the idea back then of a Sonic Mario party but that bad word of mouth put me off.
    It absolutely lacks the charm of Mario Party. Completely 100%. I've played it on NullDC, the game is torture to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mega Drive Bowlsey View Post
    The VMU really was very impressive to me when I first got my Dreamcast. I loved the fact that it gave you different information displays depending on what you were playing at the time. For example the ammo count and health display that the VMU showed when you played Resident Evil 2 on the Dreamcast (easily the best port of Resi 2) really was a handy and neat feature.
    The problem with the VMU is they should've also had normal memory cards with 30x the space. I already own 4 VMUs and 2 of them are used up.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

  8. #158
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    does anyone know this game? is a Model 3 (virtua fighter 3, sega rally 2, virtua strike games) shooter.
    the art style is amazing look at 2:17 3:35 and 12:05


  9. #159
    The Future Is Yesterday Hedgehog-in-TrainingRaging in the Streets SegataS's Avatar
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    I can't wait to see when I am an old man and people have this very same discussion online but for Xbox One and PS4.



    Life!? ... What console is that on?

  10. #160
    End of line.. Hero of Algol gamevet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegaAMD View Post
    does anyone know this game? is a Model 3 (virtua fighter 3, sega rally 2, virtua strike games) shooter.
    the art style is amazing look at 2:17 3:35 and 12:05

    Yes! I’m pretty sure most of us have played it in the arcade. I was hoping that the Dreamcast would get a port, but it never happened. SEGA also made an arcade version of Episode 1: Pod Racer. It was way better than the Pod Racer Games we got on console and PC.
    A Black Falcon: no, computer games and video games are NOT the same thing. Video games are on consoles, computer games are on PC. The two kinds of games are different, and have significantly different design styles, distribution methods, and game genre selections. Computer gaming and console (video) gaming are NOT the same thing."



  11. #161
    ESWAT Veteran Team Andromeda's Avatar
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    I remember the 1st time I saw Pod Racer, the gfx were so good I thought SEGA has made a new Model 4 board or something.
    Panzer Dragoon Zwei is
    one of the best 3D shooting games available
    Presented for your pleasure

  12. #162
    Raging in the Streets Blades's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SegataS View Post
    Always been curious about that game. I liked the idea back then of a Sonic Mario party but that bad word of mouth put me off.
    Don't let them do that. It's a fun game that gets exponentially more fun with more people playing.

  13. #163
    Underground Sega Nut BonusKun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Blades View Post
    Don't let them do that. It's a fun game that gets exponentially more fun with more people playing.
    Fun in video games? How dare you!
    05/05/15

  14. #164
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    There is something that needs to be said, taking part in other topics, I saw a strong emphasis on comparing Dreamcast with PS2, but for some reason (partly because of prejudice and partly because of Nintendo's good marketing, I'll talk about it later) but there is a refusal to compare DC with GCN, as I see these two consoles have more similarities than differences, the size of the disks, the texture compression and that's what I'll talk about:

    The truth: PS2 textures and video output.

    When ps2 came out, sony marketing promised a lot, but the developers complained about bugs in the development kit, so the first games came out in low resolution and full of jaggies, so myth arose that the ps2 could not make clean and jaggies-free images and that had worse textures.

    but that was quickly resolved with the Tekken Tag, the Japanese version was all jagged and blurry, but the American version had a perfectly sharp image with some kind of AA, as clean as Dreamcast games like Soul Calibur (yes, SC1 fans they will say that SC1 is sharper) but the point here is to show that the TTT is perfectly perfect and is a game of the American release, October 2000.

    internet img (from real hardware)

    Release games were like that (RR:V) the Tekken tag (Jap) itself was so full of '' jagged ''
    below fixed version (west) image








    after that it was a mix of good images with bad images until 480p started to appear on ps2, Ecco the dolphin's port has lower textures than dreamcast but is still excellent texture for eraly gen stands.

    As the issue of video output took on a scale, Time Snowblind decided to get it over with and made a game using ps2's potential for textures and sharpness, it was a PS2 game, making sharp visuals in ''Dreamcast quality'' Jak and Dexter also had clean textures, so it used DVD's capabilities to stream it directly from the media.

    As games became more complex, ps2 began to move a lot away from GCN in textures, in 2002 with Burnout 2 ps2 already displayed better textures, in 2003 it had games with textures like this, below, 2004 Blood Rayne 2 supposedly 512x512 textures on ps2. average textures on ps2 is 256x256, Tenchu Fatl Shadows.



    On GameCube side, even some exclusives suffer from blurry, not just textures, but the whole image, its output generated many low-color textures, while ps2 also operated at 32-bits. All this is hardware related, ps2 has more vram and vram bandwidth, no s3tc, but can compress with external software. So here die more two myth and lies: ps2 outputs and textures are inferior to the GCN general, because ps2 has excellent textures in its exclusives (like Baldurs Gate) and in the multiplatforms wins the GCN in absolute numbers in this specific aspect.
    Last edited by SegaAMD; 09-03-2019 at 01:55 AM.

  15. #165
    Raging in the Streets Yharnamresident's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BonusKun View Post
    Fun in video games? How dare you!
    Every opinion needs another opinion that challenges it.

    I found Sonic Shuffle to be torture to play. The Mini-games are too hard to understand, the game worlds don't feel alive like the ones in Mario Party. The game completely lacks the charm of Mario Party. But now Segata, you've heard opinions from two different perspectives, why don't you find out for yourself if the game is crappy or not.
    Certified F-Zero GX fanboy

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