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Thread: The Neo Geo was just a glorified Genesis.

  1. #151
    Wildside Expert bpguimaraes23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    These are 16x16 character cells, right? (so like the PC Engine's sprites, but unlike the Genesis's 8x8 sprite cells -and obviously unlike the PCE/MD/SMS/SNES -or most arcade- tilemaps)

    So you'd potentially have greater flexibility for MD sprites (and obviously BG tiles -also 8x8) due to the smaller cell size and greater potential for re-used patterns. (granted, in the context of the way the Neo Geo was actually used, this is a non-issue since most graphics were treated as solid bitmapped images rather than using tiling at all -which, of course, wouldn't be at all realistic for a normal home console, and would also potentially make it less cost effective in the arcade -compared to hardware making more efficient use of ROM . . . though that's always software/programmer dependent too)
    Pardon my ignorance, but does it mean that Mega Drive used stripes too? With 8x8 characters? Does it have 15 color per sprite/stripe or per character? How about the SNES and PC Engine?

    Maybe that's a stupid question. I'm not knowledgeable about these things, but I would like to understand those systems differences.

  2. #152
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpguimaraes23 View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but does it mean that Mega Drive used stripes too?
    "Sort of", a sprite can be a certain number of tiles (or cells) in size. The Neo Geo also attaches sprites (or stripes since they are huge vertically) to each other.
    Quote Originally Posted by bpguimaraes23 View Post
    With 8x8 characters?
    Yes.
    Quote Originally Posted by bpguimaraes23 View Post
    Does it have 15 color per sprite/stripe or per character? How about the SNES and PC Engine?
    15 colors per cell. Each pixel in a cell is a 4bit number (0-15) that indexes a color in a palette of 16 colors, of which the genesis has 4 shared between sprites and backgrounds, the SNES 8 for sprites and 8 for backgrounds, and the PCE 16 for each.
    EDIT: The above applies to backgrounds, I think sprites use a palette per sprite, and not per tile.
    Last edited by Kamahl; 01-03-2012 at 04:25 PM.
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  3. #153
    Death Bringer Raging in the Streets Black_Tiger's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpguimaraes23 View Post
    Pardon my ignorance, but does it mean that Mega Drive used stripes too? With 8x8 characters? Does it have 15 color per sprite/stripe or per character? How about the SNES and PC Engine?

    Maybe that's a stupid question. I'm not knowledgeable about these things, but I would like to understand those systems differences.
    The Genesis, SNES and TurboGrafx-16 all use 15 (visible) color 8 x 8 pixel tiles to cobble together background layers. They all use 15 (visible) color sprites made up of sizes ranging from small squares to larger sizes and different proportions. An object like a playable character sprite is normally pieced together with the most efficient combination of sprite sizes, but appears on-screen as a single piece.

    The Neo Geo doesn't use traditional tiles for background layers and instead cobbles everything together using only sprites. It happens to be capable of using some very tall, but always very narrow sizes. Hence the "strips" description.

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    Master of Shinobi evilevoix's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Black_Tiger View Post
    The Neo Geo doesn't use traditional tiles for background layers and instead cobbles everything together using only sprites. It happens to be capable of using some very tall, but always very narrow sizes. Hence the "strips" description.
    Is this a flaw or simply a way of doing business?

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    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Is this a flaw or simply a way of doing business?
    It's perfect for what the Neo Geo is designed to do, if you were to put the Neo Geo under the same size constraints other systems have, then it would be a big disadvantage.
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  6. #156
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Exactly, the tile based rendering of other systems was simply to create the possibility of saving rom space by reusing tiles.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

  7. #157
    Hero of Algol kool kitty89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    "Sort of", a sprite can be a certain number of tiles (or cells) in size. The Neo Geo also attaches sprites (or stripes since they are huge vertically) to each other.

    Yes.

    15 colors per cell. Each pixel in a cell is a 4bit number (0-15) that indexes a color in a palette of 16 colors, of which the genesis has 4 shared between sprites and backgrounds, the SNES 8 for sprites and 8 for backgrounds, and the PCE 16 for each.
    EDIT: The above applies to backgrounds, I think sprites use a palette per sprite, and not per tile.
    This I really would like to know . . . if the sprites can have per-cell color selection (and flipping for that matter), you'd have a good bit more flexibility for things. (more so on the MD due to the 8x8 cells, though the PCE also has the much larger palettes to work with too -I think the SNES uses 8x8 cells too . . . it would have to since it supports 8x8 sprites -assuming its sprites are built from character cells and not single bitmaps).

    From what I remember in looking through the MD sprite table documentation, it looked like only 1 palette per sprite though. (not sure about flipping)

    Hmm, do sprites share the same character set with the tilemaps in the MD? (that could be pretty useful, you have the same tile sizes on the MD -unlike the PCE- so it would make sense to do that)
    6 days older than SEGA Genesis
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    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    Dude it’s the bios that marries the 16 bit and the 8 bit that makes it 24 bit. If SNK released their double speed bios revision SNK would have had the world’s first 48 bit machine, IDK how you keep ignoring this.
    Quote Originally Posted by evilevoix View Post
    the PCE, that system has no extra silicone for music, how many resources are used to make music and it has less sprites than the MD on screen at once but a larger sprite area?

  8. #158
    Master of Shinobi Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    This I really would like to know . . . if the sprites can have per-cell color selection (and flipping for that matter), you'd have a good bit more flexibility for things.
    The Neo Geo is the only hardware I know of that allows you to do something like this. This may be to make up for the lack of tilemaps in the first place.

    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    I think the SNES uses 8x8 cells too . . .
    It does, although there's one specific mode that allows tilemaps to use 16×16 cells... but the memory arrangement is beyond stupid as far as I know.

    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    From what I remember in looking through the MD sprite table documentation, it looked like only 1 palette per sprite though. (not sure about flipping)
    You can't specify individual tiles, only initial tile, flipping and palette (for all the sprite).

    Quote Originally Posted by kool kitty89 View Post
    Hmm, do sprites share the same character set with the tilemaps in the MD? (that could be pretty useful, you have the same tile sizes on the MD -unlike the PCE- so it would make sense to do that)
    Yes, and this is generally abused when you want to use sprites that blend with the scenery :v

    EDIT: in fact, you can even use parts of the tables for tile data, although garbage isn't very useful to show =P This can be useful if you have some part of the tables unused for whatever reason.

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    Wildside Expert bpguimaraes23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sheath View Post
    Exactly, the tile based rendering of other systems was simply to create the possibility of saving rom space by reusing tiles.
    But what is the advantage of using sprites for backgrounds? Reading this thread I got the impression that it is not such a good idea, but I know nothing.

  10. #160
    I remain nonsequitur Shining Hero sheath's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpguimaraes23 View Post
    But what is the advantage of using sprites for backgrounds? Reading this thread I got the impression that it is not such a good idea, but I know nothing.
    I would imagine that it had some advantages in simplifying the graphics hardware, and since the NEO GEO was aimed at large ROMs it wasn't going to show up in games. It probably also made the scaling effect cheaper/easier to implement. Note that the SNES can only scale backgrounds while the Sega CD can scale everything but runs into bandwidth limitations.
    "... If Sony reduced the price of the Playstation, Sega would have to follow suit in order to stay competitive, but Saturn's high manufacturing cost would then translate into huge losses for the company." p170 Revolutionaries at Sony.

    "We ... put Sega out of the hardware business ..." Peter Dille senior vice president of marketing at Sony Computer Entertainment

  11. #161
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpguimaraes23 View Post
    But what is the advantage of using sprites for backgrounds? Reading this thread I got the impression that it is not such a good idea, but I know nothing.
    It's less restricting, you can say... make a background layer out of spaced out trees and save a ton of sprites that way. Doing those spaced out layers allows for a ton of true parallax scrolling.
    On the other hand using the sprites to draw full layers wastes sprites you need for the player, bullets, enemies, etc.. So it's a tradeoff.
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    Master of Shinobi Sik's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    On the other hand using the sprites to draw full layers wastes sprites you need for the player, bullets, enemies, etc.. So it's a tradeoff.
    Yeah, though they made up for that by allowing a lot more of sprites.

  13. #163
    Wildside Expert bpguimaraes23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    It's less restricting, you can say... make a background layer out of spaced out trees and save a ton of sprites that way. Doing those spaced out layers allows for a ton of true parallax scrolling.
    On the other hand using the sprites to draw full layers wastes sprites you need for the player, bullets, enemies, etc.. So it's a tradeoff.
    Is there any advantage to use tilemaps aside saving memory?

  14. #164
    Smith's Minister of War Hero of Algol Kamahl's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bpguimaraes23 View Post
    Is there any advantage to use tilemaps aside saving memory?
    With the Neo's huge amount of sprites per scanline... Not really.
    It can do 3 parallax scrolling layers while still having enough sprites to do the player, enemies, bullets, etc...
    Saving memory is a big deal though, unless you enjoy paying $200+ for a game.
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  15. #165
    Wildside Expert bpguimaraes23's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamahl View Post
    With the Neo's huge amount of sprites per scanline... Not really.
    It can do 3 parallax scrolling layers while still having enough sprites to do the player, enemies, bullets, etc...
    Saving memory is a big deal though, unless you enjoy paying $200+ for a game.
    I understand that. It's just that I spent years hearing about SNES's mode 7 and Santurn's VDP2. I thought there were things you couldn't do without tiled backgrounds.

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